The Host

Hey, Joe. Hi. So, we are back in Star Trek The Next Generation for a classic episode. It's series 4, episode 23. It's between Half a Life and the Minds I, and it's the host. How do you define a classic episode of Star Trek, the Next Generation? Well, I think just mostly it's got to be in series three, four five, or maybe six. But it turns out once again, as with PowerPlay and the masterpiece society, that this actually isn't all that good. People remember this for the ending more than the episode itself you know. Or maybe also because it introduces the trill, which obviously goes on. sort of, yeah, they do a lot of retooling before they're back. But it does introduce a major element that goes on to be a big part of other Star Trek shows. So it's so important for that reason, is weird, you know statistically, you and I, how many next generation episodes have we done now? No, I'm not sure, but it's... We've had 2 Dr. Beverly romances in the very few that we've covered. don't think she has many. No, and she definitely has a type because he has the same kind of cheap romance novel hair, doesn't he? As, as, um, what's his face? I can't even remember what Ronan. That's right And it gets lies like, you know, I believe you have a earth custom of delivering flowers when you say goodbye romantically to some. I was like, oh, no one talks like this. not even enough Harper Cartland novel anyone talks like that. I think there's a sort of weird thing going on here. So I think the initial idea is that we have an alien who is a slug living inside a person, but it's the slug that's the person and the person is just like a host, hence the title. And then it gets handed over to Jerry Taylor to write the screenplay. bad news. Yeah. And so it does become a Beverly story. And someone in memory Alpha, I can't remember, but gets quoted saying it had to be a Beverly story. It's not a Star Trek story. Otherwise, it has to be about our characters. And so it is about Beverly's reaction to all of this. But it has a real strong kind of case of not being about anything not having anything to say, and not really having a kind of coherent approach. Like it doesn't, doesn't know what it wants to do with all of this high concept stuff, I think. Does that sound fair? Yeah, the idea at the heart of it. It has potential because we know they go on and use that idea in lots of interesting ways of the host. You know, the one where Jansia has the host taken out of her and it goes into John Glover. You know, it's the idea of the worm in the belly is really interesting. You're right, that's not really the focus. We don't really learn much about that. We're far more interested in, you know, Dr. Beverly's heartbreak. Yeah, but we like we never really know why she's feeling what she's feeling, even though she spends a lot of time talking about it. It's a very quick declaration of love, isn't it? Well, I think we're assuming that they've spent weeks together. Three weeks. Three weeks. Yeah. So it's a bit quick. I don't know. It doesn't seem like a grown-up actual kind of relationship. And the one thing that I thought of, and this is sort of super weird, is the guy from Counterpoint and Catherine Janeway. And they're kind of working together. They're burning the midnight oil, they're drinking coffee. They're in her quarters. They're working together on a problem. And they have this sort of frisson. there is a sort of chemistry there. And that kind of relationship seems to be, even, I think we were probably a bit iffy about that as well. There's a kind of slightly daggy scene where she says goodbye to him in the shuttle bay and it's all a little... There was proper chemistry between the actors there. But there was chemistry there. Yeah. Yeah, and we were invested in that relationship. We love that one. Yeah. I knew this fellow was never going to stick around or this worm you know, by the end of the episode. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No. Well, that's the show, and that's part of the problem with all of the relationships here, because this is Star Trek, and because it's a space problem show, and it isn't about the characters and their relationships, those never really change throughout the 7 years. And so she's not going to have a relationship that continues. Michael and Book can have a relationship, and that can be a grown up relationship because now we write sex in Star Trek. with a little bit more of a kind of sophisticated grown-up approach. And the status quo can change and relationships can last over a long period of time. We just saw Penny Johnson Gerald burning Avery Brooks's Peppers in the last couple episodes, didn't we? And she was sitting on his lap and it was a proper sort of mature relationship with people ongoing with issues, but they love each other to pieces. Yeah, you ain't going to do that here. No. So any relationship in Next Generation is doomed. And if you think about all of the relationships that all of the characters have, they're all doomed, like they never worked out. Interesting, is they're not allowed to have a relationship until they're all back in Picard. So Riker and Troy are in a relationship, you know, that works. They've got children, Dr. Beverly and Picard have clearly had relations. Yeah. Picard series 3, you know. But I just wouldn't let them do it here, which is a shame. But Picard isn't a Star Trek show. It's just a show set in the Star Trek universe. and so it lets us do other things. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So this is a Star Trek show. It's not about that at all. So the status quo never changes. And the funny thing is we were talking a little bit earlier about Strange New Worlds, and in this week's episode of Strange New Worlds, as in most of them, the previously on montage. He's all about the relationships between the characters, because that's the one thing it does change. It's still not serialised. It's still space problem of the week, but the relationships between the characters develop and the characters themselves are allowed to change a bit. That's more sophisticated. And it is blissful and far more satisfying than all of the other curse because of it. Well, I think it is perhaps the best Star Trek series since the original, I would say. I would disagree with that. Not show set within the Star Trek universe, not Star Trek show. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, in Kurtzman Trek, I love discovery because it attempts to do things that Star Trek had never done before and attempts to push it in directions that it's never been in before but I love Strange New Worlds because it embraces everything that Star Trek and is prepared to be fun and ridiculous and silly in a way that discovery never would be, you know, or Picard never would be. Here, I just don't think there's enough going on to sustain the 45 minutes. I remember actually starting to watch it. Like just now I'm thinking, what the hell even happens for 45 minutes. I know Odan's here. What goes on now? What they could have achieved here? And I was never going to happen because they weren't bold enough to do it at this point is they could have given the thumbs up to bisexuality in the future. And, you know, a lot of people discuss this ending. Because halfway through the episode, you know, Jonathan Freke starts playing Odan, because the worm is in Riker's belly. And, yeah, Dr. Beverly has this, you know, crisis, is Zodan, you know, the shell of the person or, you know, the heart of the person, which is now inside Riker. She determines, you know what? He's my friend Will Riker, but I can absolutely see that that is Odan and I still love him and so she fucks him. And then the worm in a good twist, because I don't think at the time, maybe now. at the time, I don't think we thought they would go down that route of the worm would go into a woman. And then Dr. Beverly has a little singing at the end where she says, yeah, we're not ready for this, yeah. You know, the human race is not ready for, you know, a woman to like a man and a woman. So, you know, after change. I think there's also a trans kind of allegory thing happening as well. Do you know what I mean? Like some couples relationships don't survive when one transitions and some relationships do. And it seems a little bit like that. But I think the whole tone of the way that she plays that scene is just utterly wrong and weird. And like I just don't think that anyone has a coherent idea of what this episode's supposed to be saying. You could just be talking about Gates McFadden's acting style there. That's really strange and weird. But I mean, I've got a quote here, though. If you allow me. I usually hit these before we go into the episode because it's something that people have talked about. So Marvin Rush, who directed this episode, um, who's normally a you know, a director of photography, but he did go on to direct you know, the Thor, that weird one in Voyager. You know, he's a good director, he's lumber with this bullshit script. Marvin Wash says, most people that I've talked to thought the show worked pretty well were entertained. So that's, we were wrong there. Some commented that they were unhappy with the ending because it was left a question. There was or could have been a sort of homosexual aspect to it, and we chose not to go down that route with it. I felt that it was more about the nature of love, why we love and what presents us from loving. To me, the best analogy is if your beloved turned into a cockroach. Could you love a cockroach? It's the same person. If the person is the personality and the call within, but can you get past the outside? We as humans are affected by the whole package, including the outside shell, and gates in her last scene talks about maybe someday, our ability to love, and the fact that it won't be so limited. She says mankind may one day be able to deal with this, but I can't. To me, that is about the nature of love. And I think it's an interesting worthy discussion. Rather than deal with the fact that it was because of any kind of homosexual bent per se. I mean, the way this is phrased. It tells you everything you need to know. It's just that in our culture and our society, People who are heterosexual, who want the companionship of a male because they are female, wouldn't be able to deal with that opposite situation. This is somebody that has never had a dialogue with a gay or by or trans person in his life. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like the analogy is what happens if your partner turns into a cockroach. I mean, so how do you play that? How are we supposed to feel about that? I mean, that's just such a stupid thing because none of it is like anything. Do you know what I mean? Like, for now, like, you're doing a trans episode. And someone made that comparison. Well, you know, it's like if you turned into a cockroach. I mean, it would be so bad. But I don't know how to feel about any of this. Like, what is it analogous to, what's it about? Like, it doesn't resonate because it's not like anything. Like, how am I supposed to feel about this? You know, it's ridiculous, I think. And what they choose to do eventually with the trill is they move so this is all about the body, really. What they choose to do is to sort of lean into the psychology of it. Are you the sum of your parts or are you the person you are now you know, or, you know, Dax's serial killer, ex-host, you know turning her violent nowadays? stuff that's quite interesting to deal with. you know, psychology is interesting. But this is all about the biology of the worm going from person to person or Dr. Bev trying to figure out, is this the person I fell in love with in 3 weeks? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's a mess. I actually think there are some bits that are slightly successful and gesture towards something, but just basically, I don't know what to make of it. To say that, you know, when I was watching it, I did really enjoy the cheese. I think I may, yeah, I've been watching a lot of soap lately and we've talked about this in DS9 episodes. You know, so when you do have these, you know, agonising long looks at each other, you know, and, oh, just kiss me now, you know. I love all that shit. It's terrible telling. It is really bad. terrible. This is all like murder she wrote, level TV. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, let's go watch something, shall we? Yeah, that's it with that ringing endorsement in our ears. I'm going to count us in. I will say I'm still unconvinced that Star Trek the Next Generation is a good television show, all right? Well, no, fair enough. All right. I don't get kerosine. Five, four, three, two, one, and we're off. Just hoping one day it all just clicks into place and I'm like, oh yes, this is just show I fell in love with. Okay, so this is Beverly's log. And she has 3 things, none of which are particularly interesting. Wesley is still around. Uh, why is, where's Wesley? No, no, no, he's off for the Academy. But he's finally writing her letters. And meanwhile, I've been boning this guy. Now, I have to say, I have to say that higher definition does the makeup absolutely no favours at all. Oh, no. We get a latex alien later who rags very high on the Beaumont scale. And I was like, I wish I couldn't see that hideous makeup quite so clearly. So, so, so the thing that, um, that Odan has, and I wonder whether they tone it down in later scenes, but he's got this thing under his nose, which is maybe meant to make his nose a little bit more like uh, like Bem's nose, a little bit more like a dog's nose or something. And it's really distracting because you can see the edge of the latex in close up really very clearly. And then he's got this forehead thing. And it is this sort of leonine look that Ronan has as well with the sort of slightly long hair and the high forehead and stuff. So that's Beverly's type, I've decided. She's into the new romantics, you know. Have you noticed that there's no spots? There's none of the trill spots that we get later. No, nothing. And they did try and fit that hideous makeup to Terry Farrell where because there are pictures of her with that horrible sort of forehead makeup and then they just looked at her and went, why have you made this stunningly beautiful woman that we brought in to play this role looks so hideous. And obviously we get rid of the the stomach protruding the way it does in this as well because we can't be having that every week. No. So it's only doing that here for the end of the teaser effect isn't it? What's wrong with Beverly Squeeze? Well, that's right. You know how I always say the big thing that look at the latest stomach as well. Like, look how bad. Look at the latex belly button and like you can see the sort of seam where his trousers are as if it's stitched on. It's really terrible. It must have looked great. You know what I thought? I thought... Not at the time, but I thought, do you know what? If someone might watch this and think, it's the return of those aliens from series one. Because they, directly, their tummies protruded like that. and they play it kind of like horror. He's a nice hairy chest, though, this guy. Yeah, I miss you and said there is some very strange sort of horror music running throughout the 1st half of this episode where I'm like, are we supposed to fear this man? Yeah, yeah, but that's what it looks like. isn't it? What we didn't mention is the way that data was inadvertently cock blocking them and the way that Beverly tries to get rid of him. Yeah. and yeah, because they clearly want a bone and he's he wants to do analysis or something. They are very good at those scenes in the next generation, you know, because I can remember in later seasons where Picard's trying to get out of things, you know, and they're all thinking up to dreadful excuses so he doesn't have to see Admiral Nachev or go to Captain Picard's day and things like this. Yeah. But I kind of think, do you think that, so when Picard, sorry. So when data kind of comes back in Picard, he suddenly realises hey, you were just kind of trying to divert me because he wanted to root all those times, do you think like he kind of realised how they were kind of manipulating him all this time? I think it's his naivety that is appealing. You know, that sort of childlike nature of data. So that's what we love doing in the 1st place. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it is kind of cute, but it's very boring now. Compared to what we're getting. boring. The same shit of shit. shit. The same ship. Oh my god. The same shot of the enterprise zooming past the credits. Yeah, well, that's what we got in the 60s and now we have what we get in Strange New Worlds with the same speech, you know, and some Mount Doom speech. one of those amazing Kurtzman credits that we get. Oh, beautiful. Okay. So here we are. It's the host. It looks like a the opening shot of an episode of Lower Decks. Now, we do need to point out that Gates McFadden is heavily pregnant in this episode. And there are some glorious moments where people stand in front of her to disguise the fact that she is. So she's, see, I can't see that thing on his nose in this scene. Like I think it's there. No, no, no, I think it's gone. It's not as obvious. I don't know. I don't know. So she's massively, massively pregnant with her son James, who is now 32 or something like that, and we've already talked about now our visitor's pregnancy bump, who is now a very attractive young man as well. So oh, 10 days ago, they met 10 days ago. Very quick to have fallen in love, isn't it? But like it, I don't know, maybe I think it took you and me at least a month, you know. That's right. Do you know, there's a quote from Gates McFadden, you know, our memory alpha where she wishes that Crusher's 1st romantic episode would have been put off until after her pregnancy. She's sweaty and pregnant and she... She just sort of got a nice glow about it, isn't she? Yeah. They actually say that in the dialogue as well? Doesn't doesn't Deanna say that... It's the astringent. It's astringent. That's right. That's actually a line that's really kind of funny. I actually quite like that where Troy realises, oh, what's going on there? See, and this is, this is kind of okay because, like, it's over the top and it's cheesy and absurd and, like, kissing the inside. Do you remember Deanna on that boring fella from the masterpiece society? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, this is hot as hell in comparison. Yeah, but she just gets her leg over one night sort of thing. I don't know, we talked about that relationship. This guy's quite charming. He's quite funny. You know, he's, he's, he's clearly enjoying life a bit. That fellow from the masterpiece society did not enjoy life. No, no. Yeah. So, oh, dear. So here we are. I'm watching that high def, personally, are you watching all that? There are 3 beautifully rendered planets there. One that looks very like the earth, I must say. Well, and the one of the moons looks a bit like the earth. Here she is. This is the planet. Yeah. So what I think is really funny. You watch Deanna, because these 2 come in from opposite, you know they deliberately come in from opposite doors of the observation lounge. They kind of talk. Then everyone sits down and Deanna's clearly kind of going, those 2 have been fucking. I can just sense it from their emotions. And she does a little reaction, which I just think is super fun. You watch her when she sits down. I love those ships on the walls in season one. didn't they after four? Seriously. Yeah, yeah, they're not in. Yeah, look, there's Diana. She knows what's going on. You know, I feel sorry for this address. Not only because she's been given that strange hat that looks like an enormous penis on her head. She's got an extra nose. Above her other nose. Just hideous makeup that makes her look horrible. And then she's stuck. Scale 7. I think. Oh, you think? I think that might be 85. Eight, eight, five, five, at least. She's also playing this, you know, deathly serious role with space dialogue. And so she has no fun in this role at all. No. I think, so there is something about this that I kind of like. There are a few Star Trek, the Next Generation episodes that are about taking ambassadors places. Aren't they, where our job is to take ambassadors' places, and we were talking about loud as a whisper in series 2 just before we started recording. But I think this one is so fabulously generic. It is generic. It's it's like Cupid's errant arrow and the people have mixed us 2 and mixed us three. Remember arguing about the environmental things on the moons. That's all I can think of that that's what this is making fun of. You couldn't generate any interest in this at all. No. I was like, please, take me back to the cheese. Yeah. So in the price where, which is another romance episode where Deanna's boning that car... Oh, recently. By accident, and that is about something interesting, you know it's about an interesting space thing. It's not just about a sort of They're negotiating. They're negotiating for this wormhole, aren't they? And you've got the guy that Troy is boning and Riker trying to outdo each other. And then Troy's in the mix because Riker still clearly fancies it. So there's so much interest going on there. I don't think this is, apart from the fact that he is the ambassador that's going to go along and sort all their problems out. That's the only link, isn't it? Yeah, I mean, I guess the thing is the that that job makes him necessary. But it's the thing you text me earlier today. Why don't they send the team? Yeah. Something always happens to the ambassador, doesn't it? Yes. They have a sort of great man of history thing about ambassadors you know, before revun, there was no Klingon word for peacemaker remember? It's like they're rock star ambassadors. I don't think there's enough scenes between Dr. Beverly and Counsellor Troy, just having downtime, you know, because even though the dialogue is pretty ripe. I believe the relationship, I actually have a really good relationship, you know? But I think Gates is pretty great in this too. So, because there's a subtext of this conversation about, um, her being in love, it's a thing, like, she, she, I don't, I don't, at least not very often, you know, she says, oh, you should treat yourself sometimes. And it's clearly about you should have sex occasionally. You know, especially when you haven't done so in a while. Do you know what I mean? Like, that's the subtext, which I think is sort of cute and a little bit unlike Star Trek. It doesn't really do subtext during this era. But I'll tell you how far we've sort of come on, because Dr Beverly is a bit embarrassed by the fact that they're talking about boning, isn't she? Whereas yeah, you skip forward away in a warrior and Dax is like come on. We're going to go on the holiday and we're going to fuck these amazing looking men and Kira's like, right, let's go. So this was your glowing. And there was that little moment where Deanna says, I don't think it's a secret that you're in love and she goes, what? And I was kind of expecting the 7 of 9 thing, you know, everyone on deck 34 knows that you're boning, you know, oh, done or whatever. 7 up 9 can make a passive aggression, sexual reference on a dime. Yeah. But when was the last time we saw this? It was in... Oh, no, they had us. Did they have a scene in Genesis? Or was it in... We haven't seen. Oh, did they have a scene inside Broso? Yeah, I think they were in their leotards and she was saying to her. That's in the prize. I'm having the most erotic dreams. Oh, yeah. my grandmother's novels. Yeah, yuck. My grandmother's diaries. Oh, dear. Well, and we've discussed this, haven't we? The one shot romances and just why this doesn't work. No, we can't work in this show just because they're not going to begin. are uninvestable because of the nature of the show. Yeah. But I think Gates, like this is Gates more like Gates. Look at that. Look at her smile. She's beautiful. You know, and she's kind of boring as the doctor, but when she's given something else to do. She's actually pretty great and that's what we saw in Picard. When she has to chill out, that's when she's fun. Yeah, she's teaching data to dance and stuff like that. Yeah, that's the problem with this whole show. Everyone has a massive stick up there, Bart. And it's, you know, we don't have that on Strange New Worlds. Everyone's chilled and relaxed. We don't really have it on Deep Space 9, even though it's from the same era as this. Stocking of stick up butts. Here's Captain Picard. Yeah. Although he has a sort of weird moment here. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And like even when Riker is playing Odarn. Like Odarn is more relaxed than the Starfleet crew. And Riker's kind of body language, which is, you know, he's very upright and stuff, but he also, you know, is always putting his foot on the chair and all of that sort of stuff. But he really relaxes when he's playing Odarn. I thought that was, I mean, I thought that was a pretty good turn. I could see a difference between how he characterises Rikers. Yes. But what I couldn't see was the theme that makes O'Darn. You see, the thing is that for this to work, Riker and Odarn have to visibly be the same person. And I don't think they are at all. It's just Riker plays it different. When the woman comes in in the last scene and she sort of walks away. I'm seeing the same moton from the beginning there, isn't that the language? Yeah, I think she does a better job of being this guy than Riker does. It would be so much more interesting if instead of Riker, it had been the woman during that segment of the episode. And Dr. Beverly choosing to be with the woman. That would have been just amazing. Yeah, I mean, they were too cowardly to do that, you know, and it's network TV in the 1990s. and I was going to look this up. There were gay characters in fucking network television in the 19th. They just didn't want to... There is a quote on memory alpha, that the merest hint of homosexuality and, you know, there were complaints. Rick Burman was, yeah, after... It's a kiss on the hand, you know? Yeah, yeah. But then again, you know, you skip forward to rejoins, they can do it in 90s trek. Yeah, but again, that's pretty low stakes. It's 2 beautiful women kissing and stuff like that. It's like the least offensive Kind of homosexuality you can do on television. Judging at Dax and the poor queen. Yeah, yeah. So Do you know the HD does no favour to Data's foundation? No, I can see it flaky. He's got lots of blocked paws. So I'm wondering maybe we should keep DS line away from HD. Yeah, yeah. There's a latex in there. There's plenty of HD Star Trek to watch, if that's what you want to watch. We could keep this standard definition. Do you remember in Sub Rosa? Obviously, Bentley Crusher's having the time of her life, you know all gusting all over the place. And then you've got scenes with Picard. It just seems overtly serious and stiff. I feel like the same thing happens in this episode, every time we come back to Picard. I'm like, man, you need to chill out a bit in your world. Yeah, well he's all work here. I think there is something interesting in the scene that he has with Beverly in his ready room later. I think that there's something interesting going on there, I think. It's like, again, it's not until you get to like Picard. And I know we're 20 years later. TV's come on. and they've nurtured their relationships offscreen in the interim. But it's just so relaxed between the pool and believable, you know? But remember these people are their jobs in this show and in Picard, their people. They're not their jobs. Absolutely not. That's why I had a strange reaction to series 3 opening up. I was like who are these people? Yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah. And you get hints of it. You do get hints of it. And they do relax towards the end of the run. So this is the thing that doesn't stay, isn't it? So trills can't transport here and they have latex stomachs. Okay, that was clever. That was a, that was a shot straight up with her, her robe clothes her medical robe. Yes, that wasn't too bad. That was that was not too bad. We missed a bit where Patrick Stewart stands in front of her. I hope not. I think it's a bit later. But she does start wearing this blue jacket over her. Much like Roxanne does when she's pregnant during the Runner Voyager and she has that jacket with the tools in it. What side with Roxanne is they do write her out of a lot. She doesn't get a lot to do in that season. Well, 7's just come in as well. So they've got a new female character that can sort of give because heaven forbid we have 2 female characters getting a lot of attention. So funny, isn't it? Think about strangely worlds and the majority female cast. Except Nurser Gower's face. She's like, geez, that latex looks shit. Yeah, yeah. Well, it's this shot up his nose where you can see like they've given him kind of wrinkles in the thing above his eye, like below his eyebrows. It looks terrible. Do you know that later? My lover stomach did that. It would put me right off. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so, so this is the big reveal. And it's the 1st use the word joined to describe them. and symbient. Yep, yeah. And they do say at one point, we'll contact the trill. So they know of the trill. Yeah, but they only know, they don't know very much about the trill. So none of them know this. Which makes no sense later on when you learn the curves of Dax was responsible for, you know, the Klingon peace treaty, the Federation. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, you know, like, okay, so maybe they don't know the trill very well, but there's one rock star trill. Another rock star ambassador, you know, who can do anything. you know? Apparently he went around having a lot of sex as well. Maybe that's just a quirk of the job, you know, you get to go all these fabulous starships and chat all the ladies and have sex with them. Yeah, so now that Odar is dead. And I just, again, so there are things that don't survive. Are there, aren't they? And so obviously the makeup is different. The transporter thing is different. And the other thing that's different is that the personality is in the slug octopus thing. Yes. and not in the host. And I think they change... do. It's a conjoining of the 2 personalities in the end. But why do they change it, do you think? I think probably that this is slightly icky, and there's something a little bit awful about Kareel reporting for duty with that flat voice in order to just be completely taken over by Odarn. So it's like the hosts are like slaves or they don't have any because Riker's completely suppressed when he's when the host, when he's hosting Odarn. There's no Riker there, it's just Odarn. It's not a, you know. And so there's a kind of slavery thing or something. Yeah, explicitly stated, is it? No, no, no, no, no, no. But there is something like exploiting these people. is very monotonous. And then all of a sudden she's emoting in the last scene. Yeah, that's right. And so, and what's more interesting. And because as well, this episode wants so done to be the same person all the way along for the 3 hosts. For this to work, it's like, how is Beverly going to cope having a relationship with these 3 different people? Where at? If it was a mixture of the two, then it would be a unique person each time. Yes, that's right. And she'd say, well, I'm not in love with you because you're, you know, William O'Donn or, you know, whatever. God, look at that puppet. What they take away eventually is. You know, it's a bit... What is it? You know, kind of scary way. No, no, I don't need to see a doctor. Don't worry. Why is it got a blue ring octopus thing happening? Yeah, they lose all of that as well. That sort of, you know, that magma effect. at the end there. It's just a worm come DS9. Yeah. It doesn't even pulp something. But what they go for in the end is that the host comes in and it does sort of attempt to dominate, like Jad See, yeah. And then what it does is it accentuates her positive character strengths. So the 2 come together and, you know, she's just, it actually's amazing, you know? But it's also the opposite. You know, like only the very best people get to be joined. Only the very most with how well now I know. That's the secret, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But not everyone does get to be joined. Yeah. Asary Dax does, you know. She doesn't want it, but no. Well, that's a 2nd, um, that's the 1st trill joining that happens as a result of an accident because of course Adira becomes, um Tal's host through that accident that happens to Gray. See, that's another thing too, because again, here's the trill in an episode that is about identity and about belonging and about love in a much, much more interesting way than the host is. That episode, is it, but to connect? Maybe, which had Adira and Gray go to the trill home world, and it uses the trill in an interesting way to say something. And the whole episode is about connecting and belonging and finding a place to be. And a deer finds a place where they can be where they can belong. Do you know what I mean, among all of those other hosts? And it's very beautiful in a way that is very cheesy. Well, then I think rejoined is very moving as well and uses the premise. And I think a lot of it is down to the acting in rejoice. because they're just such strong performers and the relationship feels very real. You see, Riker's got the hairy chest that Odan had the previous Odan. He's like showing off now, isn't he? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He kind of like, I've still got the hairy chase off. This poor woman on the screen. I do feel for it. Yeah. It's the sort of the opposite of, you remember when I said with Louise Fletcher and she gets that fabulous tea caddy and she's like, oh, let me wear it. I'll embody it. This woman's going, oh, I got to wear this hat, honestly. For it. Your costume's hanging up in the wardrobe just there, you know we'll see you in 10 minutes. Bless her. Paul Wolf hasn't done anything. No, this is his turn to get just sort of shout out the occasional line about the shields, I think. And who knows what all those extras are doing on the back consoles? Yeah, yeah, they're just pressing for vital work. The functioning of the enterprise. So do you not think he's a bit creepy now? though, the way he just sort of stares at her a lot and he's quite insistent, isn't he? Well, except that they're just not talking about it. Do you know what I mean? Like, they've been in this relationship and, you know, it was very quick and whatever, but it was fun. They were having fun and stuff like that. And then suddenly she's not talking to him anymore and he doesn't quite know why. And he hasn't done anything wrong. And so she can't be a grown-up about it. Like, he's right. Why is she not talking to him about this? And he is leering a bit, I guess. You know, like it would have been okay for... This is new for me. I don't quite understand. But he's saying, well, that's new to me. don't get it either. And I think there's some sort of slight bullshit here. where, oh you didn't mention it to anyone. He says, well, no, that's normal for me. I'm just a joined thing and that's what all my people are. It's kind of yeah, but you've met other people. I mean, like you know that not everyone's joined. What's why not mention it? What I would probably do if I was in Odan situation. I can't believe I'm going to say this. is I would probably say to her, 1st of all, like, how do you feel about this? At the start of this scene, he is just leering at her. Then he tries to, he's trying to touch her hands and it's not the same person she's been having a relationship with, like, you know. Well, but it is as far as he's concerned, but I think because this is what, 1991, I want to say, or something around about then. And there is a kind of weirdness. Like I found myself on edge about how consent was working here. Do you know what I mean? And the thing where, does he, she come into his quarters and stuff and he says, you, if you're going to leave, you really need to leave. not leaving. So there's something very cute about this, but I don't know what it's about. So I'm firstly, I'm absolutely massively distracted by how much fucking makeup they put Gates in. She's got so much culture on, isn't she? Yeah, it's because she looks like death because she's about to give birth. Maybe. Throw some slap on her, quick, we can't shoot her like this. But she's actually, she's selling this cheesy speech, and I love the detail of huge breathtaking metal sculptures, and I don't know what the story is. Part of the problem, I think, is both of these are stories about how they want men to protect them and worship them and stuff. I don't understand. It's very kind of... Deanna talks about it. Yeah, dad put in his arms around her making her feel safe. Yeah, yeah, it does relate to Beverly's story as well. But yeah, again, it's 1991 and it's a very... And in fact, I do think that Deanna speech is beautiful because it is my father died and I never got to experience that from him again, but that's not happened to you. Like, Odan's not dead. You can go over there. He's there. You know, it's, it's amazing. This is the only speech, in fact, for the Beverly speech that even approaches what the episode should be about, isn't it? He's had his face. I see my friend. Yeah, what did I love? Like, you know? And that's a good question. If they really examined that in a relationship. What is it that you love? Is it how someone looks? Is it how they behave? Yeah. But because they can't have real proper dialogue between lovers you know, they can't just talk normally. You know, think about how Book and Michael talk to one another. Like, they're not constantly talking about their feelings for each other. No one touches my peppers. Okay. That says more, that one line than this entire episode. Yeah. And the weird, creepy way comes in the room now and stares at her for the entire length of this dialogue scene. And then when she turns around, he's just and the camera sort of slowly goes in on him, just staring at her in a creepy way. So do you know the the Twitter account Riker Googling? where it's various, so, it's just various webs, like, it's, the thing is, imagine Riker is typing into the Twitter input box by accident instead of the Google box, instead of the Google input box. And so we see all of the things that Riker Googles. It's really, really funny. And it uses as its avatar that shot of Riker looking yearningly across 10 foot. I dreamt of saying what Riker would Google actually, given some of the stuff he gets so funny. If Twitter is still a going concern when we finish recording, you should go and have a look for it. The psychological ramifications of being turned into a simian. It's very funny. It is very good. You could have a lot of fun with it, actually. Like that thing there is almost a good speech. And again, I can feel the connection between the 2 characters here. Yeah. But again, like, let's think Bechdel test. You know, the 2 of them have only ever talked about this man when they've been together, you know, like, and the Bechdail test is obviously a sort of blunt instrument for this sort of thing, but it does capture something here. There are only 2 female characters with names. Close-up. It goes on forever. And the music is, it swells. traumatic degree. wonderful. It's really funny because I was kind of listening to the music play into the into the ad breaks and stuff and just being sort of super annoyed by that. But just how cheesy and strings and synth pipe and stuff is what you said. You know, the music is so cheesily romantic. Send you that scene, you made it on the chat. Just so you can hear again. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So funny. The dreadful music. Oh, yeah. Do you know what, right? You can't give you a quote from Brannan Bragger. He's got something to say about this episode, you know. He characterised the genesis of this episode as the most repulsive story ever pitched to us. It doesn't go into any more detail than that, but he adds, being in love with somebody is not very fresh. Having it, the parasite as a host is, it was not originally pitched as a love story. It was pitched as a squirmy worm who's really the intelligence. So this is Jerry Taylor. Jerry Taylor has added the love story. Yeah, but she's right to do it because there's nothing here otherwise. Do you know what I mean? Like who cares? He's an ambassador to people from the planet Zog. to prevent them from killing one another? We really don't care. So the love story is the only thing that keeps us going. But Jerry Taylor can't ring anything interesting out of the love story. Can I say the disinterest with which these 2 gentlemen play these alien characters? They may as well be the Beaumont in this scene. Where, yeah, but it's sort of, it's cheesy and boring and it's the usual backstory thing, isn't it? The one thing that is interesting is the conceit that they think that Odan was his, like the previous ambassador who solved their problems was this guy's father when it turns out it was just his previous host. And that reinforces the idea that the hosts, like, that Odan's hosts are men, you know, that he comes from a series of men. And so that does help to sell the twist, that it's a woman at the end. I'm seeing this without, obviously, I'm not hearing the dialogue while we're doing the commentary. And he is playing it very differently. I know there's a relaxedness to Rike it usually, but it doesn't normally lean back in his chair like that. with his hair flopping over his face. And he's, yeah, his hair's different. His legs are more open, like he's just a little bit more kind of chill. And he's also got that sort of terrible sallow makeup because they're trying to sell that he's unwell. Costume designers on the Next Generation won awards for their work. I hope it was in this episode. I think it was the Klingon stuff. That's what won the awards. hats aren't terrible, aren't they? Yeah, I actually kind of like the angry guy, like angry guy in the green outfit. I think he's pretty great. I am completely obsessed with the trivia that I learn on memory alpha. Do you know, this is the only episode of Next Generation where an officer on the bridge asks the computer what the time is. Yes, we'll see it later, I think. I think it might be Picard who does it. can't remember. somebody has spent time in their life. Writing out that sentence on memory alpha. Yeah, yeah. No, look, those things that we have to be grateful for the memory are for people. This is an entire, we don't have to worry about Star Trek. Well, that I would have just never have dreamed possible. The 1st thing I ever saw on the internet, my friend Matthew showed me a Star Trek the Next Generation program guide in postscript that we were able to print out on a laser printer and I had in a binder and it had cast and crew and synopsis and trivia of every single episode. It was the 1st thing that I ever used the internet for way back in like 1993 or something. You may have peed with the Internet there, you know. That may have been your opinion. It might have been. Now it's just full of tosses talking about science fiction TV shows, I think. as you know. Oh, there was a great quote from Jonathan Breaks here. Look, the episode had to be shot in such a way that we couldn't see her stomach. They would not address the fact that the actress was pregnant. It was an interesting problem. You really found yourself more concerned with hiding her with furniture or with your body and shooting her from the boobs up. It was very, because it was a very just restrictive way of directing. Yeah, well, he's starting to think like a director, I think, at this point, isn't he? I guess, being in these scenes and having to kind of shoot around her. Yeah, see, that scene was slightly interesting. Interesting problem. Sorry, which scene? Well, doesn't he say, please let me touch you and she says, no, and then leaves, you know, and yeah, like, at least he's asking. He's asking. It's all kind of consensual and stuff and he is careful. And, you know, perhaps that's more progressive than other TV at the time, but it still comes across as a little bit awkward and you know, kind of treading on the line a bit. I can't help but notice you and I have talked very little about the subplot on the alien planet. Yeah, because there's nothing to it, is there? Like, it's just there. We need a reason to keep Odan alive. We need a reason to transplant him into Riker, and it's because this job needs to be done. That's got to be the crisis and then the trill get delayed or whatever. And the, that plot allows the crisis to happen by having some dissident, you know, fire on the shuttle or whatever. So this is the old but she's here, right? So we cut between Odan's quarters, where he's thinking about Dr Beverly and Dr. Beverly's quarters, where she's thinking about... And then, you know, it sort of ramps up and ramps up, then she comes flying through his doors, and he's like, if you're going to go, go now, because I really want to kiss you, and she goes, I am not leaving. I'm going. I think I've seen that on murder she wrote, you know, a couple of times. Yeah, and the stupid replicator doesn't even make balso, Tommy tonic, for God's sake. What's wrong? I do wonder if Jerry Taylor's had a romance, you know, if it's been like this. But look at the, like, or maybe she reads lots of, like, I read romance novels. I'll admit it. But like hot gay ones, I hope. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'm not reading heterosexual stuff that's so played. But... I tried recently, you know, I got a chapter and I was like, no, I can't do this. No, I'm done. Yeah. Yeah. Oh here we go. And Paul Frakes and McFadden. They must have been like, how are we gonna play this? Yeah, yeah. Well, I think that's the problem a little bit, isn't it? Because this is weird. Like, again, it's Star Trek doesn't do subtext. Um, and so there's something really sort of awkward about this. It's super obvious, you know, it's, I don't know, it's not... It's not subtle enough. It's not obvious. She's doing that sort of zombie thing again where she sort of looks off camera. It's so weird how our acting shifts. depending on whether she's comfortable in the scene or not. Oh, here we go. I don't think I don't think that Jonathan's very... No. And then, you know what? like, um, Renee and Nanal were not comfortable kissing in his way. Fuck me, they go for it. That scene on the promenade. I mean, that snug lasts about 10 minutes. Yeah, the half his face comes off. It's true. She goes, a loose romantic kiss because his rubbery mouth ripped off. I was like, all the way. Is this the same you was talking about between Picard and Beverly Crusher? Yeah, because there's something there, you know, like there isn't very much backstory between the characters, but the 2 characters that do have the backstory are her and him. And we will wait until maybe is it season 7 when we get attached where we actually kind of chain them to each other and they realise their true feelings for one another. I think it is quite late in the run. It was very bored. Yeah, it is, it's not very good. But, um, you know, you, if you people go back and listen to our last 5 or 10 next generation episodes. Now you say that a lot. I've noticed that. There's something almost there, but it's not there. Now, is it the fact that this is being churned out at such a rate? They can't really write these scripts with any sort of depth or substance. Yeah, and I also think they're just not very brave. I think that they find because is it is it kind of PTSD after seasons one and two, which do more weird things, but which fuck up on a really spectacularly regular basis? I think they're almost more entertaining, though, because of it. Yeah, whereas here they've found a groove and they just kind of go with it and they do the same thing every week and I just think that it's less interesting. And then they don't go for it. They don't take risks. It's really very safe, I think. It's such a weird dilemma to being though, to be far more comfortable writing, I know, a science fiction puzzle than it is just getting basic human emotions, right? Yeah, yeah. So we'll love something like conundrum or frame of mind or like that, you know, where we've got to think our way out of the episode. But 45 minutes of Dr. Beverly agonising over her lover. Yeah, is super boring. See, this, where he actually stops and says, I'm your friend, and it's whatever else I am, I'm the man who was, you know, intimately involved in the death of your husband, and then she hugs him, which I think is, you know, again so rare. And then that look, the look, you know, the over the shoulder look where they can't see one another's face, the way he doesn't quite tentatively brings his arm around as well. That's something that no one TNG gets right is that sort of suggestion. That there are feelings here. And it is almost like that moonlighting thing of like, will they won't they? We know they won't. It's not quite as good as that. But it's quite nice that they possibly will. Yeah, because there's enough backstory between those 2 characters they come with that. It doesn't develop beyond what we learn in the pilot, really, but it is something. He does look rough. Now he's going to come. I know we talk about the light, we go, 90s track, a lot now, but the overhead lighting and all these things. It doesn't, there seems no favour whatsoever. No. There's no hint of a shadow in this set anywhere. Yeah, there's no texture. hunted them down and killed them. I wouldn't have a hope. Yeah. But and then you complain about Picard, you know, because Picard is so dark. but I think that part of the joy of series 3 of Picard was seeing these characters underlit for a change. Particular things are also fucking old. Dreadful fucking... But that's the other thing. too. That's the great fun thing is then we go back. It's better lit than it is in 90s trek, but it is much more evenly lit, and that's the contrast, which is kind of found... Oh, very 1st episode where we went to the alternative universe. Yesterday's Enterprise and it was really dark and gorgeous. Yeah. You and me were going hard. We could have had this all along. What's going on? I did complain about Picard being in the ready room, you know, with all the lights off. Like he's just sitting there. He's just sort of a silhouette. wasn't he? Yeah, yeah, yeah. His face looming out of the dark. Oh, dear, oh dear. Oh, we have missed a scene where, okay, just for everybody. It's about halfway through the episode. If you watch this, watch the scene where they're all in the ready room with the alien woman and Dr. Bev's right at the back of the scene and Patrick Stewart's in front of her and then she starts to move into shot and you can almost see her stomach. So Patrick Stewart looks off off camera and has clearly been given a note saying, will you move to the right place and cover up us? So he steps right in front of her. So you can't see her in the shop. Okay. So here is Kareel. and she's turned up and she's speaking in a real flat monotone because she's going to be the new host and we can't feel bad about her being taken over by Odan. Did you notice that ship, the trill ship, is the same ship that the packlids have in Samaritan Snare? And it's the ship that the pack led ship in Lower Decks is based on as well. And look. Yeah, it is. But they only have a few models. You're right. The way Gates plays this scene, very weird. Oh, here's the thing. She plays it like she's angry with her. you get anger from this? Yeah, I, not, not Koreal, not Odan. Oh, Dan is playing it heaps like the original actor. right? I think he's in the lies, though, isn't he? Oh, you were there, the war. Well done. You know? Yeah, she's like she's snippy, you know, like he's done something wrong and like she's kind of snippy and tight lipped. She gives this tight little smile. She goes, oh, I've always loved you, but it's like it's really grudging and there's something slightly homophobic about it as well. It's kind of like, yeah, it just feels different. you know, we're not ready for this yet. What she's saying is American television is not ready for this yeah. Yeah, yeah. But when she says, but look, that tight smile and then she goes and when she says perhaps it's a human failing that we can't, you know, love has its limits or whatever. And this is stupid. Now this is stupid, right? She can't keep up because he's gonna be a different person every week or something. And it's like, there was a fucking shuttle accident. You know, like your partner could be anyone's partner could be a different person after a traumatic event. You know, like you, you sign up in sickness and health or whatever. And that's a thing. That could happen. You know, some terrible thing could happen and your partner changes. Your partner gets older as you get older. Like people change. This is not unusual. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, if her partner turned out to be trans, that would be it. You can handle this, so sorry. But, and you know, for some people it is. Like, yes, for some people it is. and and find whatever, you know like I don't know what that would be like. I don't know how I would feel about that either. One thing I liked was when she kissed her and there's a flicker of emotion on Dr. Bev's face of like, she feels something. I don't think it's shocked. I think you're shock. I think it's almost like, okay, I didn't expect to be turned on by you getting my hand. Only, if only. But it's an absurd message to go out on, though. In a show that's supposed to celebrate diversity. But if she, like, you know, we've got to find a way of ending the relationship, right? Because Odan can't be in next week's episode. Then maybe you should be Odan saying to Dr. Bev. I'm a different person now because the host is in me and I can't be with you. But that's the point. He's not a different person, is it? But that would leave less of a taste in your mouth than Dr Beverly's saying you're a woman. I can't handle this. What if she was playing it differently? And what if... Yeah. You know, at the beginning of the episode where we said, well, we don't, we're not convinced anyway, because they've only known each other for 10 days and she's desperately in love with this man. We're so far removed from anything you and I can buy into now because that worm's gone from one person to another person. Add on the fact that we don't buy into the relationship at the beginning. It's like, well, I don't understand what I'm supposed to be feeling now at the end. No, that's it. That's exactly it And like I kind of think that you could have played that dialogue in a way that was wistful and regretful. And she could have kind of said, you know, she could have made it clear that she's traumatised by these changes. you know what I mean? These accidents and these things that have happened, that something went wrong and the relationship just can't survive, the the trauma and the change as a result, but not this, you know we're not ready for homosexuality. the 24th century. And I know this is a what if and it never would have happened. What I would have loved was for Odan to have said, do you know what? I can't stay. I've got work to do. And for Dr. Bev to say, it would have been really fun to explore this. That would have been a much more positive in it, you know? Do you know one other thing, too, that I noticed is that Odan has a conversation with Picard, in which he says to Picard, do you think Beverly is all that attached to Starfleet? It's kind of like what Odan wants is what Ronan wants, which is for her to stop doing her job and devote herself to him full time. You know, like it's kind of creepy and terrible, right, from the get go. You remember Kira's reaction to Bashir saying that it was taboo for Dax and Lenara to be together. Do you remember that? Kira turns around and he goes, you know, it's forbidden for old hosts to rekindle relationships and blah, blah, blah, and she goes straight away. How can it possibly be unnatural for 2 people that are in love to be in love? And so it's literally stating the opposite of this. Yeah, you know, and all right, they do go out of their way to not mention it's the same sexual relationship. But it's almost like no same-sex relationships on the show. But it's almost like that isn't a problem. you know? It's not even a factor. And that's a better message. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And look, when this series does homosexuality in the outcast, I remember at the time being like hugely thrilled by the fact that it came up. But now I'm just kind of annoyed that it's an issue episode and it's an episode of the evil lesbians who persecute people for being heterosexual, you know, like it's kind of like, oh, come on you know, like you did this. Don't blame lesbians for homophobia. You know what's doing it. Ira Bear over on DS9 in that documentary. They're like, yes, you know, you had a gay character, Garak, tick and Arabeg goes, no, no, no, you take that tick away. He goes, you rub that out. We could have done better. We should have run with that. Like, we were weak to not do it and to listen to the studio execs. And, you know, they flirt with it and they have, you know, Jesus, I love those scenes between Terry Farrell and, um, oh, what's someone that's name, you know, and let he who is without seeing Vanessa Williams. Yeah, where they're doing the pottery together and they've got their arms around each other in the swimming costumes and stuff. And Wolf walks in appalled. Like, what is going on? So they do flirt with it. But it's still it's not good enough. No. And I think the reaction, the sort of, oh, Star Trek is so woke reaction to Kurtzman trick, which is getting it right, you know displaying full diversity. It's those people that watched this and thought this was good enough and it wasn't good enough. No, no. And again, we've said before that this is Star Trek. 90 Star Trek is generally embarrassed about, for all of the kind of talk, is a bit embarrassed about this sort of socialist utopia thing, about federation morality. And Kurtzman Trek, you know, despite what people feared in series one of discovery. wholeheartedly embraces it, I think. and uses Star Trek as a vehicle for telling stories about queer people for the 1st time ever. What's sad is, I say to you, it's not in flirting with it, and it did, but by the time you get to Voyager, I can't think of a single same-sex moment in Voyager, and I can't think of a single same-sex moment in Enterprise. So when Bragger and Berman are completely in charge of 2 shows it's a, it's a gay wash. Yeah, yeah. Oh, and I think too, they are conservative. I think there's a lot to be said for the idea that voyagers politics are inherently xenophobic and conservative and the same with enterprise and we've talked about both of those things. And, you know, like I still love both of those shows, even Enterprise. But I don't love them because they're into that utopian vision that somehow has become associated with Star Trek. No, you love them because they're silly Star Trek shows. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. yeah. All right, it's the end of the episode, and it is time for us to work out what we're going to watch next. It's my go on the randomiser. Could you possibly find an episode with a gay character in it please? Uh, I doubt it because we are going to watch Star Trek Enterprise. We've got no opening. absolutely no chance at all. Why Enterprise now? It is slightly underrepresented in untitled Star Trek Project, and this week we saw an episode of Strange New World that ended with what was a little bit of a love letter to Star Trek Enterprise. And one of the things that we've always said about Kurtzman Trek is that it loves and embraces all of Trek and Enterprise is no exception. And so having the crew of the Enterprise, the original Enterprise from Strange New Worlds, geeking out about the crew of the NXO one having Ahura, about admiration for Hoshi. She talked 30 languages, you know. Yeah, yeah. Like all of that was really lovely and warm and it was kind of a fun way of showing that they were the same as Boimler and Mariner who geek out about them. You know, it's it was very cute. So wonderful that episode. And honestly, those two, Tawny Newsome and Dennis... Sorry, tennis Quane. Effortless. Just, yeah, skipping into life action. And his boy... I mean, I thought she was good. he was excellent. Yeah, yeah. The way was, was just like boy blur, the way he ran down the corridor away from number one was just like, boy, blah, blah. I'm like, how are they possibly going to pull off these comic characters in this show? And it works. And they did it without distorting the characters at all. They were still those comic characters. They were still the same. sequence done in animation. Oh my god. Oh, that thing that's... The thing that sucks on the Cerritos thing? I thought of you immediately. Oh, it was just heaven. It was wonderful. So good. wonderful. So we're not watching that unfortunately. No, we're not watching that. We're going to watch it on the randomiser. Inferior iteration of stuff. We are. But we were reminded by Strangely Worlds that Star Trek Enterprise was something that was worth our love as well. So let's give it a go. Sometimes. Yeah. All right. Okay, so here goes pressing the button. Okay, season one, episode 16, shuttlepod one. Oh Christ. Off you, you might have a lot of issues with that one, because it's the one where Tripp and Reed are trapped on this shuttle pod and they think they're going to die, and it's the most heterosexual because they're losing oxygen. So they start to get very masculine and they're talking about this woman who works in the Briggs tits, and it's all very, all the things you were going to hate about Enterprise. Maybe choose another one. It's that strip down series one thing that Enterprise does where it's just like have very simple premises. But that's the one that's one of the ones that Bragger talked about in that interview with all the cars, you know, 15 years later. He thought he was doing character stuff. This is where we were doing something different. It was different, yeah. It wasn't good. Because it's overtly heterosexual and a bit creepy. Yeah, okay. All right. let's try something else Season two, episode 25 Bounty. Episode 25. Oh God, that's no. What are you doing? That's the one where DePaul goes for a pomfire. She's stalking down all the men. in horror sequences. Oh, you keep talking about that. We should have to watch it. And I can't even remember what. I think there's something about Orions in there as well. You know, the green guys. Is it racist about Orions? Does it think they're all pirates? Are they all pirates? I can't remember. All I remember is these amazing, it's terrible because of what it says about women and sexuality. She's going around and there's horror music and flashlight in and she's trying to have sex with every man. There's all cowering in the shadows. That sounds great. I haven't mentioned it before a couple of times. I think we have to do it I really want you to watch a really good enterprise one. Yeah, they're all good ones. Okay, all right. try again. We would have had fun with that, though. Uh, fight or flight season one, episode three. too early. We're in trouble there. Okay, North Star. Season three, episode nine. He's a little boring as well. Cowboy one. It's one of the weaker ones from free. Yeah. They do a Western... in the middle of the Zoom. Yeah, no, that seems like an odd thing to do. Shuttle pod one again. Shockwave. I'm not doing a two-parter, so this is Shockwave season one episode 26. We're not doing shockwave part two, so let's move quickly. I think Shaw wave's a bit muddled. A lot of people jam a bit 4 styles and it's very confusing. All right. Here's what we might do. Season three, episode 12, Chosen Realm. Have no idea. Oh, should we look it up quickly? Okay. Okay, so according to Wikipedia, it is Enterprise has taken over by a group of religious zealots called Triannons, and Archer must retake it before it's too late. Does it have interesting things to say about religion? Oh, I doubt it. I can't remember at all. I do remember a lot of Siri, sorry. Come on, one more time. Okay, one more time. This is the one. Whatever it is, this is the one. No, it's unexpected, which we did in episode 69. So fight or flight. Why is it rolling the same thing over and over again? Okay, season two, episode 15 ceasefire. No idea. All right. Terra Prime, which we've done before. The Randomiser is killing me today. All right, let's try again. So that's the longest one ever. Season two, episode 10. I think we've done worse than this. Season two, episode 10, vanishing point. Oh, is that the one with Hoshi and the transporter? She's got a fair of the transporter and it's a very quiet... Go on one more time. Okay. Come on, find a sign good. Okay, season three, episode 13 proving ground. No clue. Hang on. It's in the Zindia. This is getting embarrassing. That's the that's the point at which it ends. The rule is once we're too embarrassed to roll again. The whole thing ends. breathing ground. Now that's more like it. Three stars out of four. Jeffrey Coombs, isn't it? It's sort of big Zindi story arc. The Enterprise, Enterprise has found the location of the testing side of the Zindi weapon and get some rather unexpected help. Let's do it Come on. And we haven't really done a sort of dense series 3 middle of the arc episode, have we? Well, I don't think we've done a proper Zindi Arc episode at all have we? We're certain about done. Yeah, we've never done an episode with Zindy characters or dialogue or anything. I think you and me, we are going for different directions when it comes to series 3 events prize. Yes, I go in the same direction as John Billingsley. And I go in the same direction of the direction. and Rick Burman. So which of us could possibly be right? Alright. Okay. So, bring your answer to that question. You've been listening to entitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford and Nathan Bottomley. We're online at Untitled Star Trek Project.com, where you can find links to our Twitter, Mastodon, Facebook and YouTube channel. Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceran, and the theme was composed by Cameron Lamb. This episode was recorded on the 25th of July, 2023 and released on the 28th of July. We'll see you next time for Star Trek Enterprise, Moving Ground. Got it there. We're cute off. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's great. Oh, God. Oh, that was embarrassing, advertised for tomorrow. But I mean, I rolled 2 of them like 3 times and I rolled 2 other episodes that we've already done. I am going to have to institute the secret randomiser that skipped episodes that we've done already. Oh, well, it does that now. No, I haven't written it yet. Well I'll have the right one. Oh, okay, yeah, that's probably... It's easy to get to that point, aren't we? We are getting to that point where. Yeah, done that, done that. And actually, one of the things that I was going to do, and I might do it after I go off the call. I probably just need to write a couple of lines of code to get it to do, because we, you know, the percentages for individual shows but I haven't got an overall percent to how far we are through, and I think that'd be a fun thing to have. Don't you think? Well, I mean, I'm assuming we're quite low. We're about 10%. Oh, really? Well, this is episode 75. Star Trek is around about 890 episodes at this point. Oh, a little way to go, yeah, then. A little way to go. Because it's still coming. And you saw the trailer. I haven't actually seen that trailer. Well, low decks one. But Brandon did send me the photo. He sent me a photo of Shacks and Ransom doing the thing in doing the like in the leotards that Beverly and Deanna doing the price in exactly the same leotards that they're wearing. And the same colours and everything. Yeah, same colour, like the whole thing. But I haven't seen the trailer. I was just looking at September the 27th or something, it's back. Yeah, that'll watch every week. I'm going to binge all of, um, Strangely Wales. Yeah, as a year. Well, I'll rewatch the Boiling One. Why wouldn't I? Oh, I was thinking of rewatching it tonight, actually, later because I just think it's so great. I thought it was so well done And the last time they sort of did something that well. with that much care was trials and tribulations. Yeah, I I thought it was like trials and tribulations as well, but I actually thought... Like, trials and tribulations is astonishing and, you know, but I thought this, like, this was really something else because they were playing on hard mode with this. Like, how do they do it? Their characters from a cartoon show. Do we have them turn up and behave normal and just pretend they're exaggerated because it's a cartoon? Well, that's not having the characters from the cartoon, you know? Like that's, that's punting. How do these characters work with the other characters? Brakes directed it, didn't he? It gauge shit. Yeah, yeah. He got it. absolutely right. And, you know, because the, that scene in the turbo lift with Christine and boy, and where she realises what we always should have realised that because this is a prequel and because we know what Spock ends up being, this relationship can't last, they're in a relationship. They've been in it for an episode or something like that. It's like at the end of, you know, like an earlier episode. I think it's at the end of the comedy, the set, you know, the comedy episode where like Spock turns into a human being and then has to turn up. Yeah, he has to turn up at his engagement party and impress his future mother-in-law and he has fake ears on it. It's just it's like they're ludicrous high concept, comedy episode. And it's at the end of that. So that was episode like 6 or something. So they have only just been in the relationship together. And just seeing how heartbroken she is, like she properly plays it properly and then he's upset because he's kind of fucked up, not just by telling future things, but by saying this to her and hurting her feelings and stuff. I like her being the poster child. I love that. Then... Yeah. You know that, like, you know that she, like, the actor who plays Una is married to the actor who plays. Yeah, it's Jerry O'Connell. So he gets to say that she's the hottest 1st officer in Starfleet. But like, it was all really well judged. I just think the MVP was Jack White. I just thought, oh, yeah, incredible. That could have sunk the episode because he had so much to do. And it was absolutely the animated boiler. Yeah. What about the bit too, where he says... Where... Like where the captain says that he's going to spend some time on his own drinking whiskey, I'm thinking about his father who's died and just wishing I could spend one more day with him, and then bonelesses, but these people on the ship will wish that they could spend one more day with you. And that was great. It did lean into that whole pike nose's future again as well. But we but we knew that, of course, because the thing you know about Pike, even if, do you know what I mean? The thing that we always knew about Pike is that he has this terrible future ahead of him. That's, you know, we've known that since the 60s. And of course, Boemer knows it, and this, the show has not shied away from it, hasn't found a way of getting him out of it. I think the biggest endorsement of the episode was. I didn't want him to go back at the end. Oh, and I really thought when you could hear their voices through the portal. I was like, I'll come through just for a 2nd come through. Yeah, they're not going to do that. I was like, that would have been amazing. I was so glad they were in it. That was what I predicted. When I heard that they were going to do some animation, there would be some animation in it. I knew that that would be how they would get Tandy and Rutherford in the episode. They would just, you know, like have the thing open on the Cerritos being animated. And like having, and because the great thing too, you know, like because the Enterprise, the Strangely World's opening credits are every bit as animated as the lower decks opening credits. Do you know what I mean? They're just animated. They both animation. It's just the animation style. It's different. And the same with the planet. took me a 2nd on it. It took me a 2nd. I was watching it, watching those lights coming on. No, the lights were too... They were details enough. No, it happened. Maybe I'm just used to not paying attention. And then I was like, yeah. It was so good. Just the best thing ever. Wave for that musical episode. But like, you know, that... It's a shame, but I, you know, there are people saying, oh, it's sold out already. Things like this. Oh, fuck off and go watch something else then, you know? Yeah, yeah. But I mean, the thing is that it can be funny. But one of the things that Star Trek. Yes, it's fine. Like it's 5 songs in it. Yeah, you know? Yeah. Yeah. That where I'm done singing. The doctor sang about 30 songs. across Voyager. Yeah, yeah. That's superb, like it, that superb episode of Picard in series 2 where Agnes wears the red dress, 2 of one. I think it is, and she's sort of taken over by the Borg and she does this incredible musical number. They just wanted to be one sort of thing, didn't they? Yeah. They want it to be, they want it to be space. The next generation, sort of straightforward space thing. But I, I want, maybe, but I think, you know, I think they want it to be balance of terror and the Corva might maneuver. There's some of that in there, though. Of course there is. Of course there is. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's it does the things that Star Trek can do. Nobody's looking at that. For one episode and going, oh. they've sold out, you know. No, no. Better that's what people want. And I thought, but that was good. you know, and I thought children of the comet was good as well. It's like what Star Trek should be, you know, and high concept and beautiful and weird looking and saying things about religion and doing character stuff. Obviously, we have mixed reviews from Jama this year, though. Obviously. There's 2 he wasn't so keen on, hang on, let's see. Tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow only got 2 out of 4 stars. Yeah, and to be fair, remember he gave 2.5 stars to Bem. Yeah, that is true. Tomorrow, tomorrow, tomorrow is a wonderful Laan episode. She's superb in it. He hasn't been thrilled by anything. He's given 3 stars, 3 stars, 2 stars. 2.5 stars, 3 stars. Has he 2.5? Has he does? Has he done those old scientists yet? But you look at the you look at the comment thread because I went there yesterday at the comment. is full of people just saying, yeah I had a blast. This was incredible. But it was like a night in sick, babe. Was it annoying, Sick Bay? It's one where it's like, oh, this is a guilty pleasure. I think this is really fun. You know, like, and jam is saying how terrible it is, and everyone on the 3 is saying, actually, I think this is kind of fun. In that case, he was correct. No, it's really good. Remember, I'm doing that ritual at the end. With his shirt off with those weird aliens on the plane. We had to apologise by doing that. And we have no clue what was going on. No, that was so bizarre. Just make it up, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The fans will be pouring over for years, you know. Well, I can think of is Uncle Arthur teaching Darren Stevens to say Yagazuzi Zim. Yeah, TJ. Oh, goodness. We have watched some shit, haven't we? We watched some good stuff. Yeah, it's a bit more sheep than I expected. It's a pity about Star Trek the Next Generation, isn't it? Even the ones that I, the beloved ones, PowerPlay. I mean, I knew we were going to have some issues with this one because I remember the ending. Um, but it's sort of boring all the way through. We haven't got to the stuff like the game and the rascals and stuff like that, you know, well, we can literally just have a blast. Yeah, the one disaster. You know, we haven't done any of those type of episodes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe I'll keep rolling till I get a fun one, you know? Who watches the watchers? Watches the watches. Yeah. I like Dejah Q. As a brilliant one. Even, you know, the goddess of empathy and all of that. We have a good giggle at that. Instead, we just keep rolling season 7 episodes. Most toys. Mm, no stores I like. And then all the classics, you know, mind's eye, best of both worlds. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, there is good stuff. Redemption. This is Carmichael. Yeah. Types era. Does that pick it? Best of pickets. Oh, God. What is it? What? Jealous Auberold. Fairest, skip hence. Oh my god. So bad. That was truly superb, Mrs. Carmichael. So you can relax. Oh, what about Captain's Holiday? Oh, Max Roddenchick. And God, he was given a character. See the bad guy. Oh my god, have you seen that? Oh no, you haven't seen it. What? Um, Rom and Lisa are in the trailer for Lower Decks. Oh really? Oh, my God, I have to watch it. Oh, he's a great... I'm like drawn now with massive jugs. I got it just right. It's just sort of going to the side. That's brilliant. Oh, really? Please. Wrong later. That would be amazing.