Counterpoint

Hey, Joe. Hi. Oh, Nathan, I've got a question for you. Why is Kate Mulgrew such a legend? I think that she is actually one of the best captains ever. I mean, you know, they're Saru and Pike and Michael and stuff. But she is such, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. She is such an incredibly good actor and she's never not worked. She's constantly doing things and she was kind of slumming it a bit. I think probably in Star Trek. And she is just so clever in the way that she, she's able to convey exactly what the character is thinking in a kind of subtle way. And she's just so fabulously strong. And I think, I was actually thinking this the other day because you know, both Doctor Who and Star Wars got in trouble for having female leads in the last, you know, a few decades. And Star Trek did it first. And I think maybe there was a backlash, but it was before, you know, Nazism came back and became so popular. And so I don't remember the big negative reaction to it. But, you know, it was a thing, how are we going to do a female captain, and she just absolutely nails her. I think the only backlash there was was from the Paramount suit. So I don't think it was the fans, the talking about that. I think when Voyage came out, people embraced Janeway straight away. By all accounts, in that 1st season, there were Paramount Suits on the edge of the set watching her every move for the 1st year. And you know, absolutely obsessed with how she looked, that she didn't look too feminine. You know, what I love about K-K-Well group is how committed she is. You are right. I don't think slumming it is the right way, but I think this is this might not be like, you know, the peak of her career doing Star Trek. She's done some fantastic theatre. And, you know, she's she's had other shows on her own as well. But man, she puts some real thought into how to play this character. And I question whether Janeway is written with any kind of consistency. It's something that run more bangs on about when he came in season 6 that these characters were being written with like no motivation at all. Let's just do this with them this week. And I do think the character suffers for that. But I think whatever she's asked to do, she commits absolutely every time. I think she really ties it together as well. I mean, we have Star Trek shows and shows said in the Star Trek. This is a Star Trek show. show, yeah. Yeah. And it does have a bit more of a premise than most of them, but it's still fairly light on as far as premise is concerned. And those shows, the characters are their jobs and how good they are at their jobs. So what always ties it together on shows like that is the actor's performance. And Janeway is always Janeway, even if she's sort of acting oddly or doing something that seems implausible, she does it in just a specific Janeway way. And here, gosh, the show that we're doing today is such a showcase for just how superb she is and everything. amazingly good in this episode. She says she's quoted as saying for once, like this was the point where they said they're already for her to have like a real romantic liaison or some holiday character or whatever. Um, even though that that is kind of couched in duplicity. Uh, yeah. And she's quoted as saying, um, it was so refreshing to finally see the woman underneath the scientists because they've kind of lent on, and I, and I believe that they live on the scientist side of it and showed them smarts, you know. Yeah. But man, man, she plays these romantic seeds. She's a sly old woman. I'm telling you this. She's brilliant. It's funny, you know, because I guess traditionally the romantic heroine is kind of 2nd fiddle to the romantic hero in a romance you know, the man is more important than the woman because patriarchy and all sorts of things like that. So the man gets top billing. The woman is a kind of secondary character and the story is how does the man win over the woman, you know, and there are exceptions to that. But putting your lead and putting your captain in that position where she has a relationship with a man, given the way that, you know, given the unequal power dynamics of how these relationships get presented, that puts her in a subordinate role, and you can see, you know, Doctor Who has a female lead and has absolutely shied away from anything like that. They haven't wanted to go in that direction at all. But getting Janeway in this position. Yeah, she's in no way. She's not in us of all the role here. She. Not in those scenes, isn't she? Like, she's, she's, well, she's playing. She's also pursuing it. Yeah, and they actually don't give her a proper romance, but we don't know that until the end. This this episode, so this is counterpoint. Yeah, we better mention that at some point. Well, it's on the, it's visible on everyone's podcast player, so we'll be fine. This episode, I think watching it for the 1st time, is a very different experience from watching it again. And this is one that I've gone back to because I think it's outstandingly good. So it's one of the episodes that I have rewatched from time to time. But it had been a while since I'd watched it and I couldn't quite remember how the twist went. But when she was kissing Kashik, I knew that she was playing him but it would be interesting to know what it's like again to not know that, to actually think that perhaps there's a real romance happening here. Oh, so you know, well, the 1st time I watched this, I was convinced by the chemistry, but I wasn't convinced by the relationship and I was waiting to see one how he would... And then how she would trump it. I wasn't sure how it was all going to happen. I'm watching that unfold. so satisfying. And I've got to say, to be able to watch an episode of Voyager this good after some of the draws we've watched so far was so satisfied. This takes place in season 5 of Voyager, which I think is his strongest year. It's the year where they really, the kind of Brandon Braga, Kenneth Biller really got their act together and started putting out some really good shows. And this is like a 4 episode rum. 30 days counterpoint latent image and bride of chaotica. And I think they're all outstanding in very, very different ways. For me, this is like the high point of Voyager. This might be my favourite of the four, possibly later image because that's got an even better Robert Picardo performance. But basically, this rocks, because of my root. And if you would indulge me, I have a quote from Kmart group here where she talks about it because this is her personal favourite episode that she recorded and she is protesting. All of those layers and all of those nuances and subtleties were terrific to play. I loved counterpoint because I was so gratified creatively. This was espionage at its best. It was a symphony. Every scene with Mark Herrellic, the whole marriage between the writing, the characters and the actors was almost perfect. I ran to work every morning. So sorry when it ended. Every part was wonderful. Deeply satisfying work and you know that is everything. Yeah, and it probably doesn't happen that much on stuff. I've got to say, do you know what she... episodes like this very often, did she? I think she had a hand. 1159 is another good showcase for her. Oh, I suppose you could say fair, how you, but it is, if you're so kind. Given, given sort of what they had in K-bong group. It's quite astonishing that she didn't get more episodes like this. Yeah. Yeah, I think this is really great. And let's talk about Mark Harrelick, who is absolutely superb. So good. Now, look, in this podcast, right? We have seen some pretty shoddy guests, you know, those, that'll do performances, you know, the boma, people like that. Man, this guy is he's really committed to this, isn't he? Yeah, he's great. And I looked at his IMDb page yesterday. I remember seeing him. I think he's in Jurassic Park 3. I think he plays like a tennis coach in a run of Seinfeld episodes. And that's where I'd seen him. I remember having seen him and I think probably I'd seen him here first, but I was so struck by him. I started noticing him in other things, but he has never not worked and I think he's in his 70s now and he's still going. It is really, really great. He is like, I think he's appealing and kind of creepily slimy and stuff, but he does, I think, sell the defection thing. Oh, I think so too. I think he really sounds. I think he's very charming in those scenes where they're working things out together. you know, and they're kind of leaning in and amazing. It's really good You think they got the actor 1st and then wrote the episode 4 here. I don't know, but it is one of these Star Trek episodes that just depends completely on a guest performance and we've talked about progress and duet before. So it was a thing that Deep Space 9 actually did. And then here, I think, you know, it absolutely stands or falls on the relationship between these 2 actors and they just nail it. It's really great. Well, should we give it a go? I think we probably should. All right. I should count us in. Five, four, three, two, one, and we're off. I'll just say straight away. I remember when I 1st watched this. Okay, and this opening sequence where these Nazi storm troopers, uh you know, take Voyager to the classical music, I was like, this is something different. This is the, you know, this does not feel like your average Voyager episode. You know, I think what's great. What really, really works is that it starts in the middle, and so we don't have to put up with all of the scenes that we've seen 100s of times before, of how they met and what ended up happening. You know what it would have been? Voyager on the back shot. It would have been like those scenes with the Boma, where they were saying, oh, you go around this up and, you know, boring things like that. Yeah, yeah. Well, the other one that we've done is the killing game, which does pretty much the same thing that starts with Voyager occupied by the Hirogen. This thing about materialising on deck one. It's like a very different game than the killing game, though doesn't it? very different. Yeah, but putting Voyager on the back foot, I think, is really good. Even that opening shot, which had one divorce spaceship approaching Voyager from the side and then one coming in over the camera looking absolutely massive. Look at her chair, sitting back in her chair. Oh, welcome to your ready room, Captain. It's it's so great because it's such a massive fuck you and it's so much so. But he's, he can be like incredibly genial. Like he can afford to be kind of super charming because he's so in charge. Can I just say that, um, his subordinate, Prax, has got my best name ever, and he goes so much mileage out of that name. Brax. What was so great was when pranks appeared on the screen and he's lit from below and he's really quite kind of imposing and then seeing him just being casually bossed around by Kashik is so great. So Kashik has the same name as the Planet of the Wookies in Star Wars, but it doesn't have 3 Y's in a row. It's just it's just the one Y. I mean, there's lots of K's in it, so it's a space mate. It is a space name. Prax is an absolute corker of a space name, I think. Talk about dropping you straight into the story and getting you engaged immediately, you know? Voyager doesn't do this. A lot of voyagers sort of aid to be classic, isn't it? Yeah, because it's a Star Wars Star Wars, what are we doing? It's a Star Trek show. Because it's a Star Trek show. It's here's the space problem and then we solve it. But having them kind of start off having failed to solve the space problem. essentially, they can't do anything about these inspections and putting them on the back foot is great. Did we ever find out why what their problem is with telepaths? Like. Yeah, yeah, we actually get a speech from Kashik about it. And the problem is that they're racist centophobes. No, the problem is that... Well, how he justifies it, the rhetoric he uses to justify it which is kind of true, is that telepaths don't have to trust you because they can just read your mind and the basis of all relationships and all sorts of things is trust and they short circuit that. And you know, that sounds like a thing. There is a wonderful scene with Neelix. Oh, look at that shot. Look at that shot. They're like, um, uh, stingy or something out there. Yeah, yeah. But they're massive. It's so rare to get a good special effect. I know, they turn the lights down in the corridors. right. Nice. I love all of this as well. Just going around the ship and and scanning everything. I don't know, it just it feels incongruous, doesn't it? It's, Yeah. Yeah, well, it's the sort of thing that you never see. And everyone is kind of slightly surly with them. I think you know, there's a kind of repressed rage in the way everyone deals with them. And we've seen, look at that look on Harry's face. Look, we've seen Harry Harris and Shakota. We've seen them get now. They've had their contractual appearance. Yeah, that's kind of nice. The one that I misleased is Tom Paris, I think, in this episode. Oh, so there, with the cell cultures, just shoving it on the floor. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's great to see someone do that to the doctor too. That's pretty awesome. Bilana's good here too. Like, B'lana, the way that B'lana deals with Prags is pretty hilarious. So, absolutely. I was going to try and unpick this thing as we go. At this point, does Kashik know? That they're harbouring the telepaths. So they go through this whole rigma of doing the inspection and then later on it comes, is it because he already knows or did they find out here? Yeah, I don't know. And it's not made clear. I don't think it's made clear. The next time we see him. Yeah, the next time we see him, he knows everything. And so whether he finds out here or not... See how tight that is. Yeah. And she's great in this as well. And this is a little moment that indicates that she's not telepathic, so she doesn't count because it's a technological thing that only works with other Borg or something. I think that maybe it's possible they find out now because there are some clues, aren't they? They discover that, uh, power's going to the teleport or whatever the transporter and staff. Do you see Janeway's body language? She's not giving him an inch in that room, is she? No. No, she's owning the room. He's in the foreground, but she's just sat back and doing the Janeway maneuver. And even as he was marching back, she was still in the background of that shot with her hands out, incredibly relaxed on the sofa. Oh, I love the use of music in this. I think it's so, so lovely. I think there are one or 2 moments of decent music, like decent incidental music here as well. Good, the music in 90s. Can you say that again? I know. Well, maybe one. But the music in 90s trek is pretty terrible. And with the odd exception. And so the use of like Marla and Tchaikovsky here. And, you know, we had duet as the title of a Deep Space 9 episode. Yes. And that's not anything about the content. It is entirely about the relationship between the 2 characters. It's essentially saying this is a two-hander, and this episode is about their relationship. It's got nothing to do with the actual plot. Here they do talk about counterpoints and they hang a hat on it. But I think what's happening is the way their 2 personal plots track one another. And if you were to do a kind of graph to graph who's in charge or who's on top or who's defeating who, you get the sense that Kashik is playing Janeway and she's falling for it, only for that reverse to happen. And then suddenly, and there's also, like a counterpoint is, you know, a sort of melody underneath a melody that kind of tracks one another, and the spiral, uh, the spiral thing that we see out the window is a little bit of a visual representation of that as well where you've got 2 kind of waveform superimposed upon one another. I think it's daring to suggest that there's a bit of thought that's gone into a 90s train episode. going in here. Yeah, yeah. I think it's, I think, because... Yeah, by calling a counterpoint, they're saying the important thing to pay attention to here is how these 2 characters stories interact with one another and how they differ and complement one another. And that's what the title duet is doing. But here we also get to hang a lantern on it because we get this music from Marla and Tchaikovsky as well. Do you know what I thought was the ultimate payoff in this? Was after all the deceptions were, you know, out in the open? And she says, you know, my offer is genuine. He says, I was tempted. Yeah. So there was something definitely there, you know? Oh, I don't know whether we can believe that. Well... I believe her. No, that's true. I think that's true. She looks like she's about to spit in his eye. Yeah. Can we talk about the makeup? That, it, okay, it is a bit of latex, but it's fairly. allows him to give a performance still. Yeah, I think, you know, like it doesn't interfere with the face at all, and I think it is, it does make him a bit ominous, though sort of emphasising the eyebrows and things. I think it looks pretty good. This is peak Janeway hair for me. I just love that hair. She's got an example. It's very kind of standard American hair. Look, pattern enhances. You were asking me about pattern enhances before when they appeared in Star Trek the Next Generation in PowerPlay. They use the pattern enhances, and it turns out here they are. There's a bit of, you know what? Have you know those? The cameras. There's a bit of harm, how camera work going on in this, you know to give it a bit of urgency. Yeah, who is this? Is this cliff bowl? I can't remember who directs this, just to say. I mean, we shouldn't have mocked bowl too much. He did best of both wells part one. It's Les Landau. You're joking. My God. No, it's him. He's hacked out a few of these that we've watched already, and we weren't complimentary there, I'm telling you. Maybe he's one of those directors, depending on the quality of the script and how much effort he puts into it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think this is so great. And so, and that too, because this is a reversal as well. This is a development. We didn't know at this point, or until this point, that they were harbouring fugitives, and I think, well, we know some, he said that, uh, she said that Bora could chew up with dead, and that was not going to happen off screen. Oh, yeah. So we know there's some kind of... Actually, doesn't that happen the next time he comes out? No, no, no, they just haven't. That happened just now. Okay. Yeah. So, uh, Vorrick, he was in learning curve or something like that? Blood fever. He the one. Oh, the blood fever he gets. My mouth with Blood of Torres, and then she takes on the horniness and then she has it off of Tom Harris. It had the most terrible consequences. But you're right though. That's the 1st that's the 1st point where, you know, it's exposed that, you know, the telepaths, the basically a whole story has happened before this that we're not privy to. Yeah. And and, you know, note, it isn't just contractual obligation that makes us go from one character to another, seeing how they react to the inspection. Because I don't think we see Neelix being inspected. Are we supposed to notice that Tuvok isn't there? at that point. We see all of the other major characters, but not too VOC. Possibly. Yeah, but he's so neglected, usually. Look, maybe we just don't know. Do you know, there's a lovely team with Neelix in a bit, you know when he's with the telemathic team. I think he works. Brilliant with kids, doesn't he? That's that's like when he's carrot safe best. So this lovely set here is not stellar cartography, what is it? Can you remember? Astrometrics. That's right. I think we did. Stellar cartography set. Oh, yeah. No, he's got them all around him. Like he's run a campfire, you know? Like, it's really lovely. And a couple of pastries on the floor. And those characters flautter and Trebus have been in it. Do they agonise turn up in the holodeck? Naomi Wildman once upon a time. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's really terrible. I really like this, because we've, we have cashie saying why, why telepaths are a problem because they short circuit trust. And then we see a scene where this little kid is spoiling the story that Neelix is trying to tell. And all that Neelix Dansey is say, it's actually not polite to do that. And the kid goes, oh, all right. And it kind of shows you how bullshit that explanation of cash X is, that, you know, there's no problem with telepath. tapped into something here with negative X because then he, well, he's already got it, but it continues, the relationship with Naomi Wild. He gets the haunting of deck. And then he gets, yeah, the ball children come in and he has scenes with them. And it's just, he sings. He absolutely sings when he's that parental figure. I love that. Look at that. Where, where he says to, where Neelix says to Janeway, for you, the kitchen's always open and she smiles at him and gives him a little playful punch on the shoulder. She's absolutely just, you know, she's so good, you know. So excited by this. There's a whole episode where she was hunting down coffee. she makes that interesting. There's coffee in that nebula, Nathan. like, yeah, that's like episode two, isn't it? It's like really early. I suppose as well, when it comes to the telepaths, the, they call the Imperium, the, the, yeah, the Devore Imperium. The Devore Imperium. They're obviously like a military force and the telepaths have an advantage over it, don't they? They can... Yeah. Yeah. Oh, here he is. Here he is. He looks a lot more relaxed. Now, his hair's a bit just sheve all. in casual clothes. He's in terrible Star Trek casual clothes. Although I think once he takes the jacket off. Oh, my God. I don't want to wake up. Give him a snob. No, I was I spent a lot of time looking at his very, very hairy arms. Okay, you did. He's a very hairy man. And you know what? He's getting a bit of shit. He's great about this because we've done this. We've done the defector about 4 times already. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Including an episode called The Defector. The defector. that's right I think too, at this point are we inclined to believe him. There's a twist and it turns out that the arrogant evil inspector from the cold open is actually a good guy and he wants to help them. That's a possible story, isn't it? It's not absolutely certain at this point he's lying. Okay, the way this episode is ploted. And the way it's constructed. I don't know. I was just always expecting subterfuge. And the way they sort of play around each other all the time and I was like, okay, so this is a game where we're playing a game and eventually there's going to be a twist that hits, you know. Yeah, so I think that the great thing is that there's a kind of obvious reading of what's going on that keeps getting subverted and this is one of them, this scene here. I, you know, I can't remember my 1st viewing of this, but I'd be inclined to believe him. Maybe it would have been more convincing a bit of imprax. And I don't mean, like, he he'd wait, yeah, if it was the... Well, no, no, but like the bullied subordinate defecting. Maybe that would have been more convincing then. Because he was so, you know, in his element, wasn't he? You know, ready room in charge. You know, with the inspection. And then to go from that to this, I was just like, really? His eyes is so good. Yeah. Yeah. You know what? They showcase this set quite a bit, you know, season five. And lots of poor, they're pulled a bit of money, that way. Well, we had stellar cartography, remember, in generations, which was that spectacular set where you had all of the walls were a giant, you know, spherical screen. It was really great. What a movie. Come on. Yeah, I know, here they've just got a bit of a big telly and it's still, you know, it's still smaller than Pike's incredible widescreen. Seeing on the enterprise. I do think it's a shame though. I wish. Like, you've always just shied away, didn't it, from... Giving Jane Way a long-term romance. I would like to have seen that play out, you know. No, maybe not this one. No, yeah, I don't know. I do like... Were we not ready for a woman to be in charge and to be, you know sexy and romantic? Yeah, well, they manage it on Discovery, don't they? And in fact, they make that a thing, and they give books something to do. And I guess that would be the difficulty is who do we do it with and what do they do on the show? Whereas book gets a very definite plot of his own in series 4 of Discovery. Maybe we should be thankful, though, because so many of those 90s romance. Their trek romances are so agonising. I mean, there's the odd one that steps through, like, rejoined which works by well, that, oh, generally speaking. And it's full of the usual Voyager cringe dialogue, isn't it? You know, the Voyager banter. Well, in fact, that's the one thing that I'm so happy to not have to go through this episode, is there is no Voyager banter, because we're already on the back foot, and because we see them come in you know, in the middle of a thing where they're being inspected. We don't get any bullshit about the Delaney sisters or anything like that. But they haven't played like a romance, right? 2 of them's trying to solve the space problem, which is what we normally do. But with the 2 actors playing the dialogue in an incredibly flirtatious way, and that's what works. Yeah, I mean, it's in the script, though, because it does culminate in the 2 of them kissing in the shuttle bay, and I think that scene is incredibly well played. So what they are doing is the kind of thing where they've got a prickly antagonistic relationship, and then they discover that by working together, there's some real chemistry, and it sort of leads up to a kiss. It's so good. It's such a great romance and I'm so glad it's not real as well just terrific. They're both playing. where he says, oh, I think you like me. She's like, I've decided whether I like you at all. Like, she didn't look so away from me. Oh, my God. The thing very early on. It's kind of like when Kashik is explaining to her why telepaths are banned. He says, do you trust me? And she says not for a second. And I think that's so great because he's trying to be genial. He's trying to be charming and, you know, the way that he shows that he's in charge isn't by yelling at everyone. It's by just being as charming as hell and not giving a shit about anyone. You know the bit when they kiss right before he goes off. That's to the point where I wish I was a telepath. And I could hear what were they thinking? Because I think they're both thinking at the same time. Aha. Got you. You know? Well, I think what's great too, is that we go on about telepaths and they're an important thing, and we even have that speech from Kashik about trusting one another in a story where we don't know what the writers are doing and we can't work out how to read particular scenes, and neither of these 2 characters knows what the other is doing, and both of them, it turns out, are deceiving one another. Do you know what's astonishing doing things in the background? We're not listening to the dialogue. All I'm really seeing is their body language and she's like stroking the chair and coming towards him like our bloody cougar I'm telling you. Yeah. I'm leaning in right now. Voyager is my shit. This is so good. And do you know what's fat? Okay. We're not there. You know the bit where, where... But the bit where he finally, you know, goes, you know, this is this was my plan all along. She's so half hard in her reaction. Well, I was waiting for you to drop you, you know. Oh, you've got me. Oh, she's brilliant. Oh, now, I think that this alien is actually pretty fucking great. I knew you were. I knew you were. And you know what? The makeup is weirdish. Fuck, isn't it? But it's the performance. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Doesn't he have a weird tip? The performance well. Yeah, yeah, we'll get there. And it's... so I... He's so great, but because he looks like a frog or like an amphibian of some kind. They've even done something to his hands to give him like finger pads. Like his hands have been made up in such a way that his, the fingers end in sort of frog-like pads. He's like a frog and he has this thing that expands around his nose, the way that some frogs blow up their neck in order to make a louder sound. And I wonder, I wonder whether the actor discovered he could do that with the latex just inadvertently. And Les said, do that. Do that because it's really funny. So it's a proper comedy performance. The double the double pupils. He's got as well. Look at his eye. Yeah. They give him double D. really nice contact. I mean, the poor actor, he is slavering in latex, don't he? Yeah, look, look at his fingers. Look at his the fingerpans. You can see it there. They've put them on to make him look more like a frog. I think this has a sort of coherent look to it. Every time he moves his head. Extra nostrils. That backfit wobbles. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think he's really good. Do you know what? Literally, it's doing this thing with you. I was pissing myself laughing because I knew you'd have so much to say. He's so good though. He's not on the bow mask scale at all. I absolutely buy this guy. He's like -100 on the boat. Yeah, yeah. There's some actual thought here. And he's a character, and of course, the important role that he plays is that now Janeway and Kashik are playing him and they're both deceiving him. Yeah, they're teaming up to deceive him in the same way that they're deceiving one another at the same time. They work together really well. There is. He blew up his nose. Even when they're, um, even when they're obviously working against they work together brilliantly. Did you say the way she was leaning again, Gary? He told me not to contact you, but I did it anyway. She so great. But in an episode that is all about a central relationship that is based entirely on playing one another, having the 2 of them team up to play someone else. Like, again, the fact is that there's a proper coherence to the script. It's properly thought out. It's about a thing. She's done this thing, which Kotay quite a few times. There's quite a few moments through Voyager, where they're like you know, putting off stomach. And it just don't work anywhere near as good as this. Yeah, well, Mark's giving a shit would be my guess. That would be the difference in this scene. Where? Robert Belton. Yeah, that's how... I'll just write it out for the next 5 years. Fuck it. That's right. Regular paycheque. But do you know, right? You can match it. You know when... look at the look. They just looked at one another after giving him the thing and then this. Oh, this is one of the best teams of the episode, this. So they're pulling an all nicer, so they're in the mess hall, and he, there are his arms, his incredibly hairy arms, and there's a glimpse of a cephalic vein going down that bicep there. So it's I thought it was worth mentioning. He's... What, no, but he's at his sexiest. And he's taken the jacket off. Say, counterpoint. There we go. But here we here we explaining the central conceit, and it's the parallel, parallel melodies playing against one another, and they're talking about space things, but this scene is entirely about their relationship and not the way they conceive their relationship, but the way that it works in plot terms. This is the writer telling us what they're doing. And I just think it's so good. It's so brilliant. You know, you know, when she's growing, it's like, look at those pants. Look at them in those trousers. every single day. I can see this in her performance. Like, she is eating off the script. Yeah. And look at Mark Harrelick's travel. Anxiety doesn't become a new inspector. She's so great. There it looks a little. I haven't decided whether I like you at all. You like me better in the uniform. And and she's doing to him what he did to her in that 1st scene. You know, she's just lounging around being genial and stuff while he's being stressed. And this is what I recall. The Colian colar. Infinite spirals. Yeah, I know, that's sort of crap. But notice that they are 2 strands that cross one another, a sort of pinker one and a bluer one. And so the spiral thing, the 2 things spiralling around one another is another representation of the camera. I do think there is a rather more obvious reason, a special effect though, and that is to give them a very romantic backdrop. Yeah, yeah. And like, does Voyager do stuff out the window all that much? I know that, uh, something that we... Yeah, well, there's one fabulous episode where they land at this they go to this spaceship and you can see all the different elements of the station outside the windows, depending on where you are on the ship. Because this ship can, it depends on how early in the season is, if they got on the budget. Yeah, yeah, yeah, this is a little bit low effort. He's so convincing to change. Look at him. Yeah, he's looking so handsome. I guess, I guess. The, they don't ruin the look of his face, do they? The latex things. He still manages to look handsome. If he looked weird, that would have been a problem. Oh, I think he looks very sexy. Yeah, I do too. Oh, maybe we need to change something quick. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, and Devore, I think, is a really great name, too, for aliens it's kind of like, how have they not used the name Devore before it's such a good name? Do you know what he's doing here? He's given one of those horrendous Star Trek nighties trek backstories where he's like, oh, there was a little girl trapped in the thing and I can never forget her face. It's the sort of thing we get every week on Star Trek, but it's all part of the ploy here. I still think that the best one of those is that one in Picard where Rios is telling the story and then his doctor girlfriend just sort of resets his broken arm or something in the middle of it and says. Yeah. Good story. But okay, now there is something I want to address. Now look at how they're sitting. There is something I would like to address with you, because one of your criticisms of 90s trek is that it does rather confine itself to lots of speaking parts in a few sets. And I think counterpoint uses that to its advantage. And I don't think 90 straight always does, but I think it can. No. And I think if you've got like a strong idea for a story, if you've got a couple of good characters, if you've got some really good actors, then this can be fantastic TV without like, you know the cinematic production value of latter-day trick. Yeah, I mean, this is directed with a little bit of thought and effort. But it's still... The low lighting helps. It is still all the standing sets. There are one or 2 nice visuals, but they're not that great. Like they're nothing to write home about. I guess to the other thing that Trek can do, I think, like, I still believe that Trek needs to look weird, and the big failure of 90s Trek is that it mostly looks boring. And that's, you know, I don't think that's a superficial complaint. I think that's a proper complaint, that Star Trek is said in this world. Why is it said in this world, if you're not going to show us things that we've never seen before? I think there were reasons. There are reasons why they did what they did. I think if they had more money, I think they were making less episodes. blah, blah, blah. You could go on and on. Doctor Who looks... Like Doctor Who is, like, it looks, well, I mean, 90s Doctor Who that one episode is fairly boring as well. Maybe it's because they... Actually, I think that's a nice shot. That shot of the array thing that's sending out the pulses is pretty great. They confine themselves to like a workplace drama, didn't they? So what we have is the sets and the actors and that's kind of what we play with. But what it can do is it can create made up political situations and interrogate them. And so this is sort of doing that. So you create the Devore Imperium. You create a group of people who they routinely persecute and we're trying to get refugees from that imperium to a particular safe place. Now, that is the sort of thing that you can do in a show set on earth, but it's sort of slightly messy because like you have to make up a country or something like that or you, you know, like it just becomes a messy or whatever. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And so here they can do that. And Voyager does it a reasonable amount. Like Voyager does do the let's create a made up space society and use it to illustrate something in our own society. And perhaps the best one of those is living witness. I mean, that was one of the massive streets, PS9, wasn't it? And that it had those massive empires, which were making parallels with things that actually happened in history, and told that on a massive canvas. Exactly right. And, but what, but because Voyager is going from place to place, it can create a society to illustrate a and then throw it away and never see it again. And that's a kind of Star Trek thing to do. I think that's... In 45 minutes, it is hard to do if, you know, and there are examples of what you're doing that extremely well. And that's death writing to introduce a society, interrogate it and tell a satisfying story in 45 minutes. That scene started on 7's breast and then pulled back. I think from season 4 onwards, most, there is at least one scene the start song. Like to start. So breasts come into shot and then we pull back to reveal seven. No one has to do it. The divorce ships are coming back now, so he's got to he's got to be off. Yeah, yeah. Well, do you see the way there? She just got sort of whisked Jose away. Get off a bit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So in charge, didn't she? She got nothing to prove to anybody. Captain, we have to talk. I mean, kiss coming here. Ah, yeah, so this is the thing. So, oh, yes. It does, oh, yeah. I'm going back to join the warships. So, like, as I say, at this point, my brain's going, oh, God what's happening? Okay. Yeah. Is she having to rethink her strategy now? No, I don't think so. You think she's got this from the off? She's, she's, she's got this from the off. Well, you know, nothing is really happening behind the scenes because this is just TV. The only thing that happens is what we get to see. You pull that out to me a lot, you know. So, but what I think, though, is he's got a definite plan. This is all planned out from his end, isn't it? That he then encounters the warships, uh, you know, he knows they can't get past the ping, the machine that goes ping, and uh, the warships are going to get them, so he'll have to go back and then he'll come back with the warships and take over the ship. So if he's got it all planned out, she has to have it all planned out as well. Yeah, but she couldn't possibly know he was going to affect. She is so good. No, no, once it affects, I think. Once it affects, she decides how to play it. Yeah. Yeah. Because it doesn't work because it's a counterpoint. They each have to be playing one another equally. She can't be falling for him. It's got to be made up. And I think... There should have been a briefing where she's there telling, you know, all of our crew. No, I'll have a... no, no, no, no, no, no. No, I don't want to see it. We mustn't have seen it. I want to see it. I want to think that it's happened. She's going, I'll have it eating out the palm of my heart. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's absolutely the right decision not to show us. We mustn't be shown it and that's what's so great about this. The twist is so good. At any point, if we know this is a strategy, it doesn't work. So it has to play as if it's real, you know? Yeah. And so this is the kissing scene and they've tussled his hair looks like a romantic hero a bit more now. And it's this thing, she's staring into his eyes and looking at her, she's absolutely bunging it on. That's amazing. We'll wait for you. I'll wait for you. They have a kiss, yeah. It's one of those horribly chaste kisses, right? And then he pulls away and she grabs his head and goes, no, come here. He initiates the kiss and she is she looks surprised, but then she pulls him in for a proper kiss. Cheers, yeah. Look at that. And that's her saying, I'm going to win this one. You know, like, that's absolutely what... Kate Mulgrew kissed me like that. My coach... telling you. Oh my goodness, she's so good. It's so true. Oh my god, look at her face. Got you. Yeah, no, I think it's unreadable. Look at that. Terrible PSO there, look. Yeah, look, I mean, like, that's something. Give us something. It's like a bit of a break from the standing set. Yeah, it is a bit shit though, isn't it? Unfortunate. So now we've got to play out this whole music. They're coming onto the ship, you know, that's all going to happen again. But it all happens very economically because we've seen it all at the beginning. Because we've seen it. We know how it works. That's right That's right. Yeah, no, look what I'm trying to be intimidated. on top of them. Oh, look at it. No, no, no. We call her protocol. She's loving it. But I love her thing where originally in the 1st iteration, the 1st inspection, she says, you know, give them your complete cooperation, but this time it's give them your usual warm welcome. Great moments like that for the run, you know. Don't forget where the Vadean stormed the ship. She went, Ganem, Welcome to the bridge, just as the whole shit blew off. She's amazing. So good. Oh, yeah, the usual warm welcome. 15, 12, 8, 4, and one. It's so great. Oh my god, this is the 1st wardrobe, so I'm telling you. It's really terrific. And that smile as she goes off. And then how are we playing it? How are we playing this scene? Does he say to her? going to be back. I'll be back in a minute when in that other state? Or does she not know he's going to be in charge of it? Oh, yeah, I'm not sure. She, yeah, I don't think she's blindsided by this because the episode requires her not to be. She's got to know what's going to happen, I think. And you know what? Her acting ability when he plays his hat. is just phenomenal. And then Kate Mulgar is acting mobility when she plays her hat better. Oh, yeah. Do you know, there was one scene that we didn't comment on, and it's like, they've been all a bit, you know, like all over one another. And then she sort of sends him away and there's a security person and he stands to attention and she just says as he was. I bet she's like, but she kind of says it already sly for ash. It's so good. And I think it's like she's almost been caught kind of fraternising with him or having too close a relationship or saying something that she shouldn't. And so the guy goes to attention and she just... apologetic about it as well, which I love. So good. It's so, so good. I'm wondering if that was a description, though, or if that was Mulgrew. It's it's so deliberately about something though. It's not just a little character beat it is this. I'm in charge, I'm doing what I intend to do. There's nothing to see here. You don't have to pretend to hide behind being a soldier. You know, I'm, I'm in charge. I'm on top of this. He's really brilliant. The way he was holding himself there, when he was back is like being in charge, to the way he was holding himself a couple of scenes there, when he was defective. It's like he's a completely different person. He's great good. Yeah, yeah. And all of this we know. Oh here we go. Congratulations. I followed you. Oh. What's straight right now. But her half-hearted reaction to his debate is amazing. And that sort of close up of her. Maybe she looks concerned or she's looking like she looks concerned, but we're supposed to think that she's been blindsided by this. Yeah, which is why we're getting the close-up on her and him out of focus in the background with her reading concerned, I see. Look at what she says, that touching story about the little girl. She's almost exposing how shit those backstories are, you know? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, but then he uses that, doesn't he? He uses that story then to say this is why I do what I do. Oh yeah, just to reinforce how evil he is. you know, a very real threat. We know they're not a threat. They're children and families. It makes it more fuckable, you know, now he's really bad honestly. Oh, and the outfit. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. The uniform. There's some leather. When Jane wears piss. It's a look, isn't it? It's definitely a look. Look at her face. Yeah, yeah. But she looks pissed off. Like she looks annoyed. And then we get that little close-up of her as everyone walks past and she looks around the bridge and sees no one but the Vor there and like she's completely defeated at this point. Look at her looking at the ground as she walks. How she takes back this room in a minute is just... It's so good and it's so quiet. she doesn't grandstand or anything. Cisco would. wouldn't he? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. No, she completely just so gray. So good. All right, here we go. With anything we're missing. not there yet. On the edge of my seat, some space sheet is happening. You just need him to go, oh, curse, it's foiled again or something like that. But this whole thing, look, they say it out. So it's like, yep, the torpedoes are destinating. The transporter's going. And so the transporter goes and then it cuts away and I think we have to know then, like that's how we know. like we we see the patterns. It looks like they're about to appear, but we cut away from it. Is that when we know that they're gone? They're not on board anymore, surely. I think so. Yeah, I think so. Look, I have fun. she's not unmoving. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She's waiting for him to catch up. To say this incredibly great line. You created false readings that is the theme for this evening isn't it? It's so good. It's so great. That's the moment where she... Vegetables. And you know. He didn't even have to say it. You know that none of this is going to go on the record because he couldn't be shown to be, you know. to be beaten. Yeah, let's do some mullet. Now she's picking the music and she's trying to get him to relax. Yep. And so they've absolutely reversed roles from their 1st scene. It's so good. It's so well done. Oh goodness. It's funny, isn't it? The space shit is actually the main tedious part of this. And in fact, you know, the best thing about it is just 2 people in a room talking. Yeah, I told you a minute. I think that's the best of trait. I think that's the best of trait is fantastic characters. Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think I think that here, though, there's some good writing, there's that one hot refugee, the bald one. We don't really find out much about these, which I do comment on. They're just, the innocent mix. Yeah. Off down the wormhole now. That could have led it. I could have led that could lead to earth, you know, that. Yeah, no, it was just a little wormhole that led outside the divora. They were going to go through, weren't they? I didn't realise you had a map. No, but I think they were going to go through uh, afterwards and follow them, but they can't do it because the ship's full of, of um, Devore. It's great seeing him out of control and properly angry too. Like that's how you know you. Yeah, yeah. Well, she's he's trying to get her angry. I think he's trying to irritate her in that 1st scene and so once he's angry, he congratulates her. Like, well done. You beat me. I had to take a few. For gosh. Do you understand? Look, and now she's going, oh, kiss, he missed it. Just to piss him off. It's great. If those parallel suits had any doubt, those shoes came full spearheaded in this show. Jeez Louise. She's so good. Just so tremendous I don't believe the tempting offer. I just don't buy anything he says. I like that. No, I quite like that. Because I think I'm wondering if he's trapped in, you know... Well, you know what? It has a little layout. Just a little. Yeah, yeah. Oh, and I love the music keeps playing as the ship sort of dance off away from... Yeah, yeah. We get some good music over that closing shop. shot pulling back from her on the bridge. Yeah. Terrific. Yeah. Nathan, why isn't Voyager always this good? Wow, well, Star Trek is not usually this one I see. Look, I think that the problems, I think that this is a show that could only be done in the Voyager context. And you never see the enterprise, you know, when it's on its home turf, it can never be so completely. You remember Starship Mine where the ship is taken over? That's sort of a bit rare. Oh, the binars take it over that one time. Who knows? But whatever. But having this sort of having them encounter a society that just completely kind of overcomes them and then watching them get out of it, which happens in the killing game as well, is something that I think only Voyager's premise allowed. Well, I think the killing game could probably play out on one of the other shows. It could just be in a region of space and they take over the ship. But this is like an area of space, isn't it? they're going through. So, and it's quite rare, I think, there's probably only a handful maybe a season's worth of episodes. You could say that is distinctly uniquely Voyager. Yeah. Well, I think the trouble is the Enterprise can always call home you know, like it's always sort of near home. You can always just phone up Bob April on the subspace thing and just sort of say hi, Admiral Lachayev. Um, whereas Voyager's isolation, uh, means that that sort of story can be done. And look, I mean, I think that they start with the intention that they have all of these exciting things happening in the premise and that's what they're going to do, and then they just discover they're just rehashing old Star Trek episodes over and over again. And yeah, it is a bit of a shame. But as well, you know, I don't think, I don't think this would have played out half as well. It was the same episode, but we're a male captain and a female antagonist coming in. very different, wouldn't it? Yeah, and so, like I say, it's one of those kind of rare moments where they really give Kate Mulgrew an acting showcase. Yeah, well, there's a there's a kind of power thing in that relationship, isn't there? Which, uh, which makes it a little bit different. I think it's so good It is really great. So yes, I think this could only be done with a female captain and can probably only be done on Voyager. And like with that power dynamic, if, like, he kind of gives her or no, I'll say, he gives her space to be in charge. She doesn't give him any space to be in charge. But if he had tried to dominate those things in any way. I know, it just, it could have been played very differently. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, you know, everyone sort of compares her to Catherine Hepburn and Catherine Hepburn is sort of famous for that sort of um, you know, sort of screwball comedy romance thing. And I think they're leaning into that a little bit here. It's not sort of withy dialogue or anything like that, but it is the 2 of them getting together as kind of equals in that all nighter with the coffee in the mess hall, where the relationship really appears to land. And I think it works incredibly well. They're needling each other a little bit, but they're mostly on the same page, except that we know that it's all being faked. Uh, which makes it so great. I think, I think it's a really properly solid script that is about something and it's not about politics or anything like that although that comes into it. It's just about this central relationship, these 2 acting performances. I'm going to, to finish, I'm going to circle it round back to again. You said you wanted a big love informal group, you're going to get it. In 2 episodes time, you have Bride of Chaotica, where she plays Queen Arachnia, head of the Spider People, in the most fabulous pantomimic performance you've ever seen in Star Trek. And then later in the season. She gets to do 1159 where she plays Janeway's ancestor. Oh, yeah. And she gives a really different, gentle, beautiful performance in that as well. Like, She's diverse. You know, she's she's just amazing. Sorry, I just want to bring those 2 up because I think they give her the same thing to do over and over again. She saw with baseball, she's the scientist, she's the captain whatever. But when they kind of give her something incredible to do. She might be possibly the best leader of a Star Trek show. Yeah, I think she's definitely up there. I make that case. All right, it's time for us to choose our next Star Trek episode. So Joe is at untitled Star Trek project.com slash randomiser and tell us what series we're choosing from. I'm gonna be a little bit predictable, I'm afraid. and do, I'm going to follow Pat. We've had for the last 2 weeks and I'm going to include every Star Trek show. I don't feel like singling out any shows this week. We run out of ideas as far as I understand, I think it is. No, no, no, no, because I think we if this isn't occurs when episode, we kind of need to head back there fairly soon. because we've done a couple of nights. Yeah. But let's just see what we get, shall we? Okay. Press the button. Okey-dokey. Your random Star Trek, lower decks episode is... Season one, episode for Moist Vessel. Yes, I think that is actually a pretty great one. We've only done one of those. Moist. Yeah, we should probably do another lower decks episode, you know. Yeah, so it's like there's a thing that turns the ship into kind of plant matter or something like that. I'm struggling to remember which one it is. Am I right about that? Yeah, no, it's a thing that tariff is a sort of terraforming ship that turns the ship into sort of pliant matter and stuff like that. It's a very cartoony premise, but it's pretty funny. Well, it's Star Trek Lower Decks. What do think? Oh, no, I'm terribly sorry, but I have already pressed the farm again. You've pressed again. I have, yeah. Oh, it's number Voyager episode. So we won't do this, so I'll press it again. We've just done a voyage. Okay, but what is it? If you have to tell us what it is. which is another cracking episode. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's another past one, isn't it? We go back into the past. No, no, no, no. It's the season 6 episode with Barclay and Troy. Oh, wait. Pathfinder project. Yes, of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, is Deanna in that? Are you going to do Primus of Deanna? God, you're obsessed with the woman, honestly. Okay. Okay. Your random Star Trek discovery episode is The Wolf Inside. Season one, episode 11. Oh, so the wolf inside is a reference to the fact that Ash is really vogue. Uh, I think. It's always a bit hard to tell with discovery because it's so serialised because the episode titles are so opaque. Okay. I'll press it again. I'm so sorry. Okay. Your random Star Trek, the original series episode is series 3. Oh, there. Episode 15. Let that be your last battlefield. Oh, you know what, when that is? Is that the one with the half? Yeah. Black, half, white face. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, well, like... Sorry. This is the last time I shall press the button, okay? Because a discovery episode, we're doing it no matter what. Your random Star Trek Discovery episode is but to connect season four, episode seven. So this is the mid-season finale for series 4 and it features kind of the introduction of a new character and a big kind of break between Book and Michael and a huge kind of political thing. There a massive political meeting and stuff like that. And I think it's really interesting because I think it leads to the strongest run of episodes Discovery ever has, which is coming back at the beginning of the year with just a run of episodes towards the series 4 finale, which reaches a satisfying end, is serialised but tells a coherent story every episode, and does some proper science fiction. So this is a little bit of a kind of big episode leading into a run of really very strong episodes. Well, I'm going to do something. Maybe press a button again. Oh, well, do you think we should? No. No, no, no, I think we should do it. You've been listening to entitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford and Nathan Bottomley. We're online at untitled Star Trek Project.com, where you can find links to our Twitter, Facebook, and YouTube channel. Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceran, and the theme was composed by Cameron Lamb. This episode was recorded on the 14th of June 2022 and released on the 26th of June. We'll see you next time for Star Trek Discovery, but to connect. No, no, no, let's do it, but I'm gonna do something. I've not seen season four of Discovery. I'm going to watch the 1st 7 episodes of Discovery. Oh, okay. Leaving out for this, but I'll know nothing beyond it. Okay, all right. That's interesting. That sounds like a good plan. And this is a season that you have hyped to some degree. So I am looking forward to see if it lives up to that. Yeah, I think it's really good. All right. Okay. That's an interesting one. Now, listen, you got a scoop. I'm gonna press stop. I have to scoot because I've got Alfie yelling at me in the other room. so hot. I need to go south. I went for 10 minutes. I'm roasting.