…But to Connect

Hey, Joe. Hi. So, we're back this week with another episode of Star Trek Discovery. And I have to say that with Strange New Worlds being on at the moment. I'm watching that every week and really enjoying it. And I'd kind of, it was risking displacing discovery in my affections, I think. Yeah, yeah. And I think that it's because it is just relentlessly fun and it's really episodic and really straightforward. And so watching this again last night, it was kind of a bit of a well, it led to a bit of a course correction because I think discovery is really great, and I'm glad that Strange New Worlds exists, but I'm glad it's not the only Star Trek that we have. I went into this with a great deal of trepidation because I have not watched any of season 4 of Discovery. And this is the mid-season, or is it the mid-season break point? Yeah, yeah. So I was at the risk of not understanding what was going on at all. And I was incredibly pleasantly surprised by what I watched because this felt so 90s trek to me. It was untrue. don't get me wrong. This is clearly Kursman Trek, and there's a heavy reliance on sentiment in this episode, which I don't think is really there in 90 Street. But, boy, oh, boy, was there a lot of people standing around in rooms pontificating in this. Oh, they're absolutely over the moon. So yeah, one of the differences is, I think, that the rooms generally look better, and they have reflective surfaces. They have plenty of reflection. Every single one I could just see your face in now, you know? It was so great. I just think, you know, the baseline of how discovery and strange new worlds look is so much higher than 90s trek and that even though there's nothing, even though there's no sort of real massive special effect shots, I guess there's books, ship, leaving at the end of the episode and some establishing shots. Any action in this at all? none of the cruxes that I've come to expect or the things that I complain about with discovering. The camera work was, I wouldn't say it was sedate, but it was quite leisurely compared to, you know, those drones zapping about all over the place. You're right, there wasn't any extreme special effects or overlong action sequences. This was all about relationships, big ideas and politics. It was really interesting. Yeah, I think so too. And there will be action sequences and there have been earlier in the season, and this is very much a kind of episode where we stop and take stock and then establish the stakes and set up the 2 sides going forward. And as is typical of Kurtzman Trek, kind of federation ideals are in the foreground. And there's a difference of opinion about those ideals. And it's a similar situation to what we've had in other Kurtzman shows, where some huge disaster. Uh, like whether it's, you know, the Klingon war in the series one of discovery or, um, the attack on Mars in Picard series one, which you know, leads the Federation to kind of question its ideals. And and discovery is so explicitly about that because we're in the future rebuilding the federation after its destruction. We'll get to it later in the episode. I think that sort of federation ideals uh angle is both a curse and a blessing in this. It's a curse because it leads to a very predictable 2nd plot. But it's a blessing because it reinstates them in a really kind of beautiful way. Do you know what this really isn't? This show has mutated so far away from what it was in series one. I don't even recognise it being the same show, apart from a few key characters. So I think it is the same show, but I think it's a show that is. Because it doesn't start life as a Star Trek show, but it starts life as a show set in the Star Trek universe. You've got people coming in going all the time. So, for instance, you'll have noticed Tilly is only in this in a flashback, uh, because she leaves early on in series 4 and those people we were talking about last time like Ash, you know, he doesn't last past series too. So you've got to cast that rotates and you've got different people in the opening credits every week. And that's interesting. You know, Trek doesn't usually do that, does it? No, to the point of kind of being unrealistic, where you have people just doing the same jobs, everyone does the same job. And every now and again, they get a bit of focus. Yeah, yeah, or Deep Space and Iron, you know, where the Cardassian government gets overthrown and surprised you can't still hear. So, so there's that. No, no, but this this has become a Star Trek show. It wasn't in series one. It was a show set in the Star Trek universe. This felt 100% a Star Trek show when I watched this. Which difference is the, that what this one does. Whereas Strange 2 Worlds is let's go to a new strange planet every week. It's in the title and we'll do a fun thing. This one has one problem that raises its head at the end of episode one and is finally resolved at the end of episode 13 and it takes a whole year to do it a whole season to do it. And it has a bigger scale because it's also about the Federation. And so it's a little bit more like the Star Trek movies were back in the day. You know how like the Star Trek movies when they come along really just open up the scale, you learn more about the Federation and stuff from those Star Trek movies. And here I think there's that. And so, so I think we need strange new worlds to do the explore new life, a new civilisations thing, and then discovery gets to do something bigger. This is doing more like, well, D-space 9 does. It's all these empires coming together and discussing the fate of you know, some big, big problem that's happening at the right. And you know what? I love DS9, so I'm all there for that. What I think. Okay, you know me, I'm always going to have a problem and my biggest problem with this, and I really like this. This is my favourite discovery that we've watched so far was I think the show has lost a bit of its bite. No, Philippa. In series one, it was quite risky. It was kind of quite violent. It was doing shock twists. It wasn't really doing Star Trek type things. Whereas it's kind of gone in the other direction now, and every single member of this cast, and I think the characterisation is very strong, and we'll talk about this in the episode, because I think Stamet, Saru. I forget the what's his name, Michael Quinn. What does he play? What's his name? David Coenberg, plays COVID, Dr. Kovich? amazingly good. But they're all kind of nice. Everyone's lovely. You know, you haven't got a George. You haven't got a, what was the alternative universe? Captain in series one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Captain, like Jason Isaac. You haven't got a Garak or a Ducat. Everyone is kind of lovely. And I'm not saying that's boring, but I don't know, it does make it a little plainer than it perhaps could be. I actually, you know, I think that that's true, and I think that we do miss something by not having, well, you know, any Star Trek show would be vastly improved by making Cousin Michelle, a member of the semi-regular cars or occurring cars because she's awesome. Garak or any one of those people, you know. But, um, you know, this is uh, a Star Trek show being made kind of while America is on the brink of dumping democracy and going with Christo fascism. So I think it seems more urgent than previous iterations of Star Trek when it comes to politics. And it's very keen to portray Starfling. You think in this one? Yeah, look at this. It's all about. It's all about how connection is the important thing. When we did forget me not, remember it was all about belonging and connection and every aspect of the plot and the way the story was told was about reconnecting with something, whether it was reconnecting with the federation or reconnecting with the trill or even kind of reconnecting with the tile symbient. to myself. Well, we watched the last one where they were like, right, we're going to contact all the races we're going to try and bring the federation together, and this is half a season later. And I was like, well, they seem to have done a good job of that. Everyone's in the same room talking, you know? But you noticed that a lot of the people hadn't joined the Federation and they were just calling out things. They've got 40 worlds or 60 worlds or something in the federation now and earth hasn't rejoined. You know, like, I feel like in DS9, when you had those sort of conversations, I felt like, right, one wrong move and 1000000s of people are going to die. Like this is going to have severe consequences to people. Whereas I felt like here, they were discussing. What are they? What is the DMA? Yeah, so the DMA. That's the thing, because the DMA is a massive and normally light years across, which is just destroying planet after planet and has obviously destroyed Book's home planet equation. Is it effectively doing the same thing as like the flux in Doctor Who? Yeah, it was a bit fluxy. It was, well, except it's got a sort of clearly defined role and does something predictable. They probably need somewhere as well and as consequences somewhere. But it's a little bit more like the sort of weird alien entities that sort of turn up in various Star Trek films like one and four you know, it's a big thing that's coming and it's just hoovering up planets, we don't know what it's doing. And at this point, they know that the species 10 C is responsible. They know it's been created rather than just a natural phenomenon. Yeah, you know, talk about making it Star Trek. It's about a massive fucking anomaly that's tearing up the universe. So much so that it even breaks the Star Trek rule that each episode needs a different title. And so episode 2 of this season is called Anomaly, which shadows the name of an episode of series 3 of Enterprise. They love breaking the rules of the titles, and they are breaking the unification number 3 and all of that. Yeah, yeah. All the various amuck time titles. Before we go, I want to say something massively positive, because I felt in the 1st season, a lot of those characters were a bit nebulous and they took a long time to find their feet. I thought the characterisation of the regulars in this was so razor sharp. Like they know who these characters are and they know how to write for them extremely well. And there were scenes where you were getting very kind of different opposing opinions and everyone was making their arguments, so crystal clear. I was like, this is fabulous drama, and it's people just talking very calmly in a room. It was great. I think these regulars are on fire at this point. Yeah. Yeah, I think they're pretty great. Well, we could watch him. We could. Let's do that. I've got my finger hovering over the play button, so I will count to see. Don't ever be around, Nathan, you know, on discovery. It's really good. You should watch series 4. I think I am suitably intrigued after watching this episode. All right, here goes five, four, three, two, one and we're off. We are off. CBS studio production. Yeah, it doesn't have the, uh, there's gray. He's got a synth body now so everyone can see him. That was like a very small subplot in this, wasn't it? The... Yeah. Great dimensions. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And there was a little, well, we'll get it. There was a lovely scene between Stammets and Culba and the 2 lovers. And it's like one great, big, lovely family saying goodbye. It was really sweet. So we're getting the DMA explained to us here and we saw that shot of it swallowing up planets, which I think is a pretty great shot. Has it been a mystery to this point? you still don't know anything about it. Yeah. So I think it turns up to the end of episode one. And we have discovered it's artificial at this point, but we don't know anything about it. And obviously, Discovery's undergone something pretty terrible at the end of the previous episode, which they barely survived. It's a really good ending, actually, with, it's just Michael and Zora on the bridge. Did you see that special effects shot there? That's already making it more expensive than any episode of Ninest Trek. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But even this, you know, the way the displays are all holograms. I think is really terrific and something that happened right at the beginning of discovery, even when it was said in the 23rd century. Who is voicing Zorro? Because that is a great vocal performance. It's actually really good. So Zora was definitely in, um, in Forget Me Not. You remember the scene at the end where she advises Saru to show them a film and they watch a film together and it's that vocal performance. And so the computer's voice starts changing. And I think the 1st time we see Zora is in a short trek called Calypso. And so she's just gradually been coming on. And I think they've done a really good job playing the long game and they throw away the fact that she's called herself Zora. It's just happens in a, you know, captain's log by Michael, I think. But has something happened to make, like, has she come into contact with something? No, so at the end of series 2, Discovery encounters a thing or in the middle of series 2, Discovery encounters a thing called the sphere, which is a big computer database, and it takes the sphere data on board, and the sphere data becomes part of the, um, the ship. And one of the reasons they have to jump into the future is to prevent themselves falling into the hands of control, which gets a mention here, which is... Yeah, yeah, yeah. But the idea that Zora has gained sentience. Has that been hinted at before this? Well, yeah, it's been coming on the whole time. You know, she starts to speak like this. You know, she doesn't sound like a computer. Um, even though computers just sound like normal people on this version of Star Trek. She has a very different kind of inflection. I think it is a good performance because it sells the, I'm not just a normal computer thing. Well, the thing was right. When this pre-toxic was here and Zora said, no, I'm not going to give you the coordinates, boom straight into the credits. I was like, okay, I've seen this before. I know how this is gonna go. There's a DS9 episode where a computer program comes along and O'Brien's trying to outfox it for an entire episode and then he puts it into a little puppy pen at the end. And it was going to be something like that where they were going to have to outfox her. What actually happens is it becomes this massive treatise on identity and sentience. There's so much more interesting than that. Yeah. Well, it's it's it's trekking what's going on in the main plot. It's we've encountered a new life form that we don't understand that maybe a threat to us. What do we do with it? And do we destroy it? Do we lock it up? Do we, you know, try and destroy the DMA? Do we lock sore up and they're the same kind of thing. where it felt the most 90s track was when she creates the failsafe that you can destroy me about it. And then that felt like one of those 90s treks, moral dilemma episodes, like Tubix or something like that, where they have to ponder the consequences of whether they use this thing or not. It was great. It was really great. Well, yeah, obviously, we'll get there. So Anna Bay aside, that's not acceptable. We're not doing that. You know, the FoulSafe doesn't solve the problem. because we're not going to wipe you off. for the ones that come in and say this is wrong as well. And Hugh as well, to be fair, Hugh does too. I thought he was... He's great. I thought he was kind of the weakest characterised. He didn't really have that much. So he's had a fair bit going on this season as well, I think, and has a relationship with book. not a sexual relationship, but a professional relationship with book, is moving into the rollership's counsellor a bit as well as being a medical. Oh, because Stamic says that, doesn't he? I'm living with a counsellor. So you pick up some things eventually. But I've got to say, Stamets has never been better than he is here really good in this. He must have seen his script and been like, oh, amazing. So Dr. Kovic here is so great because he's absolutely lacking in any warmth at all. He's slightly threatening and odd looking. So he debriefs them when they come from the future. So I think he's in like episode 2 of series 3 and we see him interviewing various people from the crew. Yeah. And so he's always been a sort of slightly odd figure and he is very he's very smart and he is very federation, as we'll discover in this episode, but we don't know which way he's going to go. And I think we have been trained by years of Star Trek to expect that he is going to, you know, delete the Zora, uh, entity whatever she is, or is going to kind of extract her. And later on, we discover that, in fact, he was going to extract Paul, if he couldn't cope with... I really love that moment. And bull times around and goes, and so you should, doesn't he? That was the right call. Yeah, it was great. Really great. Talk about dangerous casting. But they, I mean, it worked, didn't it? It really worked. Yeah, yeah. I suppose he is, he is our dangerous character in this now. He's our sort of itchy character. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think so. So this, this is where most of the B plot or the A plot, I don't know. I think they're both equal, but most most of when one of the A plots is going to take place, which is in this conference room on in Federation headquarters. And they have this room which, you know, is beautifully lit and has reflective surfaces and I think is beautifully designed. But it's a very cheap way of realising this massive for discovery it really is. And actually, do you know, I thought the lighting was a little bit dreary here, if I'm honest. A bit subdue. It reminded me of my bloody shock that I work in, all tube lighting everywhere. Yeah, yeah. I just like the blueness of the set and the reflective surface, so I'm absolutely here for all of those. And so it looks ultra modern... This lady here. The sort of, uh, riches on her head. Again, I'm getting 90s vibes, you know? President Relax. She's clearly part human and she says that her mother was from Earth, but she also has Bajoran and Cardassian in her ancestry and she's sad. And that's absolutely. So one of the interesting things about her is that she's a politician and so, and her and Michael do butt heads, because, you know, when she's on board the ship, Michael's in charge, but she's still the president of the federation. But having her... So go on. Well, what's happening with the Bajorans and the Kardassians, then that you can have a... We see a we see a Cardassian in at this conference, but but I think that's super telling that she represents that makes her represent the Federation as a group of people who come to it. the hell did I not spot? That wasn't the spoon and the ridges. Honestly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, so what they've done here, and I think it's really good, is that we get a few shots looking down this sort of giant tube, and so we discover it's a massive, massive conference. Yeah, here. It's this shop where we go over the lip of the thing and we go down and we see just that there are dozens and dozens of people here or watching it on a screen and it looks fantastic. That's a beautiful shot. don't see that shot. We'll see much of it. Now we're just getting about, we see about 10 people, you know like... So you know, they stab the budgetary thing. It's enough. Yeah. I think it's an ingenious way of selling the scale of it without having to put lots of extras into every shot. But this, let's be frank, this is the cheapie of the year, isn't it? Like, they are not doing anything extraordinarily ambitious visually in this episode. Hot Vulcan, hot Vulcan. I love the Orion. After that makeup was amazing. Yeah, she's pretty awesome. The Orians, man. They love the Orions in Kurtzman Trek, don't they? Yeah, well, I think they should. They like the Andorians a bit too. There's an Andorian a little bit later too. And unlike the animated series, these Orion's actually wear clothes. Yes. Oh, there's a hot trill there as well. I'm not sure about the the woman with the Thunderbirds hat. That's a very odd. Yeah, so she's from Earth. We met her very early on in series 3 and she is in charge of earth military and she will not vote for peaceful 1st contact. Earth has become, um, isolationist. Wow. Yeah, and and paranoid. they go back there And they discover the Federation's not welcome or anything like that. But what is this sort of quorum? Like, if this isn't the Federation? What is this? So Relax explains that there are like 60 worlds in the federation who are all represented here. But because this is a threat that, um, all the powers in it? encompasses everyone. Yeah, they've invited everyone. And not just how, so there's a guy there who's got like white skin and white pupils and is wearing a sort of white outfit and he appears in the 1st scene of series 4 where Michael and book turn up on a planet to offer dilithium to them for free for help. They get a hostile response from them, but they give them the dilithium anyway and win them over. And so having them here, voting alongside the federation. It's kind of like our job, our way of reconstructing the Federation is offering help, of being kind of trying to make connections. And so that scene to have worked here, which I think is... you what. Pushing this show, post-Voyager, was a smart move because everything's up for craps, isn't it? Yeah. Oh, can I just say this scene here where Stammets came in and said come on, let's have a hard group. And he's playing music because he's trying to distract Zora. I thought it was hilarious. Because I'll tell you what, this was a pretty serious episode overall. Yeah, yeah. No. Are you ill or something? Are you feeling all right? Neither of this pair look like they're in for like group hugs, you know? Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, we do have the massive group hug at the end in a sense. I mean, that is where this plot is going to lead, is to a giant kind of, you know, she's become sentient through the power of love. The joy of that vocal performance for Zora was. It was very flat and monotonous. It measured, isn't it? got hints of emotion in it. It's so clever. Do you know who that is? She's no, no. She's superb in the end of the previous episode. Like her, because she's quite scared, I think, Zora in the previous episode and it's a really terrific performance. So the actor is called Annabelle Wallace. Annabelle Wallace, I salute you. Yeah, she's really great. She's so good. She was in Peaky Blinders. In series one of Discovery. I felt Stamitz was like obtuse. Annoyingly so. In this, I felt as if he was just offering such an intelligent dissenting voice. I was like, no, I agree with you, you know? But in the last episode that we did, which was magic to make the sanest man go mad, where he was sort of a bit weird and a bit drug fucked because he was hilarious. That was his interfacing with... Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He was great in that. And I think just making him a bit jolly and a bit kind of more relaxed works rather than him being a sort of prickly asshole which he is at the beginning of series one. I just feel like he's really grown into like character. Mm, he's really good. I think he should have got a Hugh helps, I think, having someone who is nicer than him as his partner, someone that he kind of learns from. I was just absolutely flawed. When Zora offed up like the dead man switch, I was flawed by that twist. I was like, I didn't see that coming a mile off, you know. And it's such a smart solution. And then that just provoked so much conversation after that. And it is just people in a room, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. This future, too, where we don't bat an eyelid when a device just appears on the table, and we're told it does something, because the technology, like they've done a really good job in selling sort of 900 and therapies, it just appears on the table there, and we're okay with it. It looks like a fancy ashtray. I know you've never said anything to the contrary. And I know you love the spectacle in discovery and Kurtzman Trek. But this does prove that that 90 strikes formula of just talking in a room can be really great television. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But what this does and what 90s trek rarely does is make it visually interesting and it's partly because we've got more money available and stuff. And also I think that the acting is different in style. So where is more naturalistic now. It's less stilted and less presentational. As you said, the dialogue is less stilted. So, yeah, this guide. That's the butterfly guy, the guy with the white skin who was talking just then. Oh, was that a Cardassian there? Yeah, there's a Cardassian there. That's weird, slightly weird. So this fellow here, the book goes off with in the end, who's he? So he is, he's been in it before, and he worked with Asyra at the end of series three. Remember Simon? Not that evil bitch that... Oh, yes, she was great, wasn't she? over the top. We have just had a superb, similar character in Strange New Worlds recently who was just magnificent. In an episode called The Serene Squall. Just a complete side note. without giving anything away. Can I just ask you, does a character from one of the Star Trek movies, a much derided Star Trek movie turn up in Strange New Worlds? Yeah. Oh, Marvellous. I think he's going to be the big bad at the end of the season. so excited. That is so fucking curseman Trek, I'm telling you, to take that character. So with this plot here, right? Where we're going to go outside the galaxy and the galactic barrier exists from where no man has gone before, the 2nd episode of Star Trek. They have the Galactic Barrier. Even though it's shitty and like a kind of stupid idea, there's kind of like we're modern Star Trek, we love the shitty things in original Star Trek, and we're going to make them work, and that's what's happening here, I think. Massive budget. What's his objection to the, to this anomaly, then, this user anomaly. Why does he, why is he so determined to destroy it? So it becomes clear, and he gives a big speech, and I think that despite the fact, like he's a very smart man, and he's technologically really capable, and he thinks that he can use the thing in the inside the DMA, there's a device that creates and directs it. He thinks he can use that to launch himself into another universe. And it's another universe where his friend is that he eventually ends up kind of saying is like heaven. It's he describes it here as a universe where there was no burn. Um, you know, where, you know, bad things don't happen. And so they were talking about him being from like an alternative. I was like what's this all about? He calls it home, but he's not from there. He is from Risa. And he, um, He, we see in, in an episode called The Galactic Barrier, I think. We see his backstory and he was locked up trying to work on something for Asira. Another scientist comes along. He's male, he's an alien, and the 2 of them seem to do something like fall in love. Maybe. You know, like their relationship is very kind of intimate and physical and he's lost that guy. He escapes and leaves him, that guy behind. And he thinks that guy who's called Oros, I think, makes it into this heaven dimension, he was looking for, and so he's trying to go there as well. But in a way, he's there for a bit of a religious fanatic. And I think that that's the way he's going... Is that how he's depicted going on? Yeah, not very explicitly, like he's not a ranty frothy of the mouth, kind of. He's still very rational. He's a pretty competing argument because I feel like books are very intelligent character for him to go off him at the end of the episode. Yeah, but but I think that that he's not where, he's not where that point of view is located, book is. And so yeah, and he makes his argument in this, doesn't he? Do you know what I think is really incredibly good? is that you've got this giant galactic scale where you've got 100s of delegates whom you see occasionally. There's some there. But it is essentially... as a beard, I'm telling you. There's a lot of aliens from their friend in story, honestly. Yeah, or you know, they're sort of a Star Warsness to some of them you know, where they've got big heads or whatever. They're not just sort of people with kind of strategically applied latex, Americans with strategically applied latex. But what happens is that conflict ends up playing out with our 2 main characters is the... I want to draw your attention to that. Because I feel as if that needed to happen within that blob. I said to you before we recorded. I think it was our foregone conclusion that we were going to always have 1st contact with this thing and not destroy it. So there's got to be some conflict within that. And that part of it is played really well because I love the fact that he makes his speech and then she says, does anyone have an opposing view and Burnham obviously does. But she doesn't want to say anything. Yeah. That was a great moment. And then her reaction to his speech, because she's seen him grieving. There's a whole episode where, like, it's so beautifully done where he's tethered to the ship and is going in towards the anomaly as close as he can and it's a symbol of his grief. It's like, he's just got, he's just connected to Michael by the slightest thread. And if that breaks, if that thread breaks, does he end up trying to destroy himself just out of grief and survivor's guilt? And so it's a space problem that solved using a weird metaphor about books grief. And so we sympathise with him, you know, like he's right in all sorts of ways. 1000000000s of people will die if this thing continues. And so by placing the opposition to federation ideals in a sympathetic character. I think we need the... But like when we're going for that kind of tedious voting process where we know this is, yeah, we know we know where the numbers are going to fall. That's quite nice. And I've got to say, ever since I've seen all these, you know fabulous holographic consoles, my keyboard seems very old fashioned now, do you know? I'm one of them. But what I really loved was then the 2nd that he clearly lost. She was desperate to go to him and then the woman stepped in and said, I need you. I need discovery to lead this, like you can't. And that's essentially why he gets away at the end because he goes straight back to his quarters and buggers off. But she, he also says, no, we're done. Because remember, um, the cat speech, but I'm assuming this cat means a lot to him. Oh, and the sign the sign says, I love you, Michael. after my girl. Yeah. Are you holding back tears there? I think, yeah, I think this works so well because I actually find this relationship really strong. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's so mature, isn't it? It's not like Delaney sisters. Imagine, yeah, think of some of those romances in 90s straight. It's the odd one. We love Cisco and Casting and things like that, but they're few and far between. Yeah, yeah. But it's almost a problem, isn't it? There is there's a maturity to that relationship as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's kind of sexy as well. He's so hot. And she's beautiful, you know, like the two, these 2 incredibly beautiful young people, you know, I just think they're... went 2 characters and are so good together and then they manipulate them into a situation where they're on opposing size. Well, there's your drama. And you've got you've got an opposing side that you can sympathise with that's right in all sorts of ways. And because Tark is a religious maniac, it will go wrong, although he's not playing it like a maniac. And yet in the same ref, you know that the 1st contract option is the right thing to do. So that's, you know, it's kind of like who's wrong there? Who's right, who's wrong? No, but it is a risky thing and it nearly doesn't come off and the way it's done at the end of the season is so good. It's so... I really, really loved. And I went out of this episode and I high and it wasn't just coming up on discovery and all the exciting things they were showing me that was coming there was that the cliffhanger was so understated. It wasn't some massive overblown moment of drama. It was he's going off to destroy this thing and she's got to stop him. But it was, I thought it was beautifully done. I love how she gets to say shit when she gets coming. They don't say fuck anymore on discovery and they used to, and I miss that, but I do like how the characters can kind of swear on Kurtzman Trek, because it just makes them seem real. I will reinstate, though, that some of the scenes of the different delegates talking, it really was dreary kind of trek politics, you know? Like, because so much of the rest of this was so good. I want to be balanced, you know. The only thing that sells that, that scene is that the way gradually Michael and book are, uh, shifted into the position where they become the emblems, you know, however reluctantly, where they become the leaders of the 2 different factions in a way, where they're the ones who put the case together. I think this is very moving as well because we will, as I said, see the relationship between Taka and Oros in a future episode. Well, it looks like he's very touching. what's coming in the future. It looked like they were literally going to run and run with this thing with those 2 on the run, like going to destroy this thing. There was no, no, no, it's a different location. So I figured it'd work out. This is going to run for a while. I'll tell you what, one thing, one thing this got really, really right. And then one of my biggest criticisms of Kurtzman Trek is the, uh reliance on syrup. And I know you love it. I know you love the sentiment and you feel as if previous iterations of Star Trek could do with a lot more. Yeah. But, uh, there was no scenes of people, you know, in slow motion looking at each other across the room, agonising. No, but there was a moment where which really laid it on thick when they were showing how Zora had connected with the crew and how she expressed that through scenes of them all hugging. Yeah. It was so beautifully done. It was quite subtle. It wasn't, it didn't feel subtle. that it was wonderful. It didn't feel as overblown as what we saw at the end of season three. Yeah, I really like that. I mean, she does become sentient through the power of love. My book in this thing makes it clear that they're done, doesn't he? Like at the end. So this is him making his speech to the delegates about like all he's lost like 1000000000s of people will die. He's lost everyone. You will be going through what I go through if this goes wrong and... And he's so good. This could have been such a good agonising and he sells it brilliantly, doesn't it? I think it's because he doesn't start blubbing or anything like that. He's just kind of a bit cold. and determined. Yeah. Well, and also you've got Michael looking at him because she understands that that's how he feels and that he's not wrong to feel that way and she's kind of she has to just let it happen because of what he's been going through, you know. Do you know who that white fellow is in the muscle suit? The white eyes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the butterfly people from episode one of series 4, who... Yeah, yeah. And I was also like, be smoking hole as well. That book here is absolutely smoking. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah. No, they both are. Like both him and Sanequa are just beautiful. Oh, look, we got some tears here. some tears. Look, it's still quite restrained though, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's very method. Oh, look, that looks like Morn. That kind of ball looks like Morn. Yeah. So we do have the occasional, tell me the name of that race. Uh, the Lumians? Lurians, something like that. have no idea. The modern people. Yeah, they never talk in discovery. We never see them saying anything. I'm quite disappointed. I think they're continuing that. The Beaumont are not representing amongst these people. I choose to believe that they're on one of those levels. I think they were assimilated by the Borg completely. Okay. Oh my god, did you see that? That little fellow with a spiky head? He looked just like... What's his name? Banacafalata from Doctor Who's watching the band? From Doctor Who. He does appear again later. very visible. Uh, so this is where we find the sector in Zora's memory that has absorbed just all the love on board discovery. Could I just say Gray's look is incredible. I think he looks beautiful. Yeah, yeah, he does look amazing, doesn't he? Like he's, he's, I guess now that he has a synth body. He's just able to say, actually, growing my hair or whatever. No, I think that happened. I've never seen this character since he's had a simple body. So I'm not entirely sure how that occurred. He comes back to series 4 looking like that, even though he's just you know, someone who's visible. Oh, they're coming to get me, I think, the police. Finally, someone who's just visible to Adira. It's a pretty strong look. He's looking pretty striking I've told him... He's on 90s trek. They coming to bang you up. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. The last time I saw Gray, he was manifested in Adira's mind. Yeah, yeah. And he was at the beginning of series 4 and they don't put a lot of effort. They don't hang a lot on the synth body, but you remember at the end of series 3 where Gray realises he has to go back into a sort of realm. Remember he's visible on the holodeck. Yeah, be in the series three. so they all see him. He looks like a little elfin. There was a lot going on at the end of series for your discovery right? Yeah, but plenty. He was kind of, he was, you know, apprehensive about going back into a situation where no one could see him. And so we work towards the synth body, which has already been established, obviously, at the end of Picard series one as a possibility. Dear looked quite different before as well. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It might just be the new uniform. Oh, so you know, I love this. All these scenes of them caressing and hugging and all this, you know, it's very nice. But it's a way of the computer, actually expressing how she feels you know, how is she going to do that without some kind of visual representation? Until you hugging Michael at the beginning of series three. episode two. Yes, the love between Shaw Show and Michael is also part of it. The connection that they have. I love you but I'll kill you in a heartbeat. Yeah, he's gray stepping up to work out what it is on the boys that's lovely. I didn't think this was overdone, you know. Oh, I swear there's something going on between these two. Oh, well, Detma. Oh, swear. They don't even appear in this episode apart from there. But honestly, all of this dialogue. Was top notch. Yeah. Yeah, and look, Michael and Borke, this relationship that's being tested and torn apart in the other plot. Have I missed a bit where they made sure who she is? Between the 2 scenes, where they were talking about the climax. Okay. It's coming up to the climax. And I want to talk about that because you explicitly say, don't you, that in Kurtzman Trek, if you have an A plot and a B plot they're thematically linked, and, you know, it's pushing one idea in both plots, which isn't always a case in night and I do accept that. You have these bizarre comedy sublots in 90s straight, which go nowhere. Which are still fun. It's got a cargo bay or something. But here, it couldn't be made more explicit, could it? So here it is. This is the scene here. And so it's crossfades between Michael talking and Paul talking about we've we've had this choice where we can reject something new, something that we don't understand, and we, um, you know, this is these are our ideals. We seek out new life, new civilisations, but to connect, there we go. There's the title there, not to destroy, but to connect. And so that's happening in both plots. Each of them are making a speech and the direction is telling us that they're similar because we're cross-fading between what we need, don't we? We need Picard from Measuring a Man to go, you know, seek out new life and new. And there it sits, just there. You know, basically that's what they're saying about Zora, isn't it? It's the same story. It's the same thing, but less stagey and less kind of age. Less static as well. as well. The camera's moving. Yeah, yeah. With the camera's moving, the camera's moving in the same way. It's going around the person who's speaking. So it's just another way of linking those 2 scenes together. It's not just the crossfades, but the fact the camera's doing the same thing. Measure a man is justly... Yeah, it is good, but it is raised higher because so much around it is terrible. Terrible. It's very good. I wouldn't say it's an out and out classic. Whereas much of discovery is very thoughtful. So this doesn't seem out of the ordinary. Yeah. I think this is very good though. Much better than I remembered. I just found, you know, I just found, I found Tarker's speech about trying to find heaven and his friend just terribly moving particularly knowing what to come. You said there was a danger of going from Strange New Worlds to this because it is totally different. But this is supposed to show there is a place. Go on. But this is book here breaking up with her saying that that, you know, she said, so she said, let's hope that even though we didn't all vote for the same thing, we can move on and work together and he says, no, sometimes differences are too great and you just have to accept the consequences of that. So I can't imagine breaking up. Does that stick? Well, they're not together for the rest of the season. They don't meet until the final episode. Yeah. Okay. Well, I love the fact that to get on with the 1st plot. All they've got to do is trust each other. So, yeah. What is it they offer her a position as a specialist. I thought was great. It's so good. Her reaction to it is wonderful. She's so excited, isn't she? I love it. Oh, look at this gray... What do you think they are, Gray? Jesus Christ. Why do they give Gray that line which makes him seem really dumb? Where he says, what are those numbers on the screen? It's like, what do you reckon? Sometimes you've got to spell it out to the audience, don't you? The line of the audience. Do you know what a line I loved was when Zora said, I feel seen. I thought that was a fabulous line. Yeah, so good. There's our, look, here we are voting, and so we get to see that shot down the big tunnel and see all the delegates and stuff. And it's a pad of paper, isn't it? Hold up your hands. with a visual. Yeah, and the compute, you just see the hologram of the computer detecting their hands, the Orion woman's not convinced. The hot volcanies. Oh, ooh, look at that. Not that shrill. Yeah, that trill. There's another horror trill, though, elsewhere among the delegates. You've just noticed everyone's hot in Curtzman Trek. Have you ever noticed that? Yeah, well, I think just actors have to be hotter now in the intervening 30 years, everyone on TV. Jesus Christ. Yeah. Oh, that Ferengi, look, it looks terrible. Yeah. Yeah, they're kind of... I'm watching it. Bloody master plan. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's so great, isn't it? But it's so much better than just having a bunch of Americans standing around looking all the same as one another. Yeah, and it is it is way more imaginative than a lot of those not. And look at the way she looks across at him. So she's voting yes and looking across at him and he's stony faced and she's kind of going, please, you know, um, but he's already said we're done. Um, yeah. Can you imagine if somebody else? If somebody else had played books role in this plot, it would have been a little bit interpretable, wouldn't it? Yeah, the thing that matters is that it's a relationship that we care about that we know and that we're invested in, it's been going on for 2 years. Look, he gave her them when he walked off. I know. I know. Oh. Can I just say as a side note, that is one good looking cat he's got as well. What a beautiful cat. No, it's an ugly fat cat. It's a particular breed of cat, and so it's... It's called grudge. It's beautiful. I love the fact that it can't bear burn them. Yeah, yeah. Cats are just like that, you know. They favour one, but one after the couple. Well, they have that whole conversation where it's kind of like it's moving from hostility to indifference and that's some kind of victory. Oh, and here is absolutely right that Stamets is the one that destroys the kill switch at the end, isn't it? Like, he's the one that makes the move. This. And just Kovic is so unexpectedly on Zora's side. so good. But no, I love the fact there's what, Stomach comes to his own conclusion about it, you know, like he doesn't have to be persuaded. He, through the conversation, he realises. It's that thing though. Remember where early on in the episode, Zora refuses to divulge the coordinates and Michael says, I'm the captain and it's my decision and Starfleet, the Federation's decision. It's not yours. And so this is him solving that problem finally by putting her in Starfleet and so she's subject to the same rules as everyone else. Unreasonable for him to have pointed out that if she decides this is too dangerous for us. Well, where does where's the line, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Yes, it's great. That's what does being seen. Yeah, wonderful line, isn't it? Yeah, it's really good isn't it? And I've got to say, I am totally unborn with you. I just love Saru. I think everything is... God, he's good. Great. He's terrific too, because he's not the captain and he's, he's, and he's Mr. Saru. Well, I think that I think that they held off long enough and they just basically had to make the main character a captain and Michael's always been the main character, so he's where we are. But having him be just wise and kind and all of those things, a little bit unsure of himself. Um, and, you know, a stickler for the rules. I think it's perfect. He's a really, really good character. It's just everything about, he's a four-fall, isn't he? And so... I saw a wonderful picture of him just after he'd shaved his head ready to go and film series five. All right, I'm ready for go. That is one thing that this entire cast, they market this show brilliantly. Yeah. You know, they clearly love making it and... they let they outside well know that. Yeah, I mean, if this hadn't been so successful, even in its sort of messy early years, we wouldn't have the new Star Trek episode every week thing that we have now, literally every week. This couldn't be more for me, this, it's an, but an anomaly, a moral dilemma. It's loads of people standing around in rooms with lots of dialogue. I mean, this is the perfect discovery episode for me. I think, too, that going forward, I love this set, too, there, but whatever it is. They had that in Australia as well, didn't they? Fire. Yeah, yeah. And I think there's a fire. I can't remember. The one in lower decks. does it have a fire? can't remember. It's a beautiful city. I absolutely love this. It's a similar scene to what O'Brien and Keiko had in that episode we watched where he said, you know, go off Bajor. We'll do this long distance. But these 2 are so cute and and they're young. And usually when you're young, you're a bit irrational and you don't want to separate. She just says to her, go, we'll make this work. You've got do this. Yeah. I love how she, how, how, Adira gets to say, um, you know, that that they're scared. They're adorable. aren't they? I haven't even got the subs on and I'm just bewitched by a pair of them. She's got a lovely sort of excitable gleam in her idea. She's... So sweet. Just sweet. And uh, yeah. No, I really like both of them. And I was actually, you know, I was so sad to lose Tilly. She'll be back later in the season. So, uh, she's a girlfriend. Was she off to do a movie or something? Or was she pregnant? can't remember. I can't remember, but I think it was personal reasons that shit. Better than purchase. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think that they were talking about trying trying to bring her back for series. This is one of my favourite scenes. I don't know what's going on between Saru and this Vulcan woman. Are they still called Vulcan Serena? Yeah, well, she's from Navarre. She's a Vulcan. But she's from Navarre, which is because the reunification happened. Um, and the planets, she's the president. She's hot for him, but she's so restrained. When he gives her the plot. She couldn't be more delighted. It's wonderful because she's restrained just sort of culturally but she does speak about her emotions and she is lovely. Like, she's a great character and she has been in a beard in series 3 and 4. And Saru is restrained just because he's super polite, but also because he's very unsure of himself as well. But the warmth between them is so delightful. Yes, that's a lovely scene. Guardian Z from back from Forget Me Not. We've got him as a kind of semi-regular as well. So they're absolutely building up their own continuity in this you know, future setting. and having a small cast. Oh this is great. The 4 of them hugging. Talk about representation. I mean, that is... a beautiful family unit there. Yeah. Oh, and so you say that cares. What is wrong with you? Mostly. Oh here they go. They're off to cause mischief. So Taka calls this, this bachelor pad of yours, like describes Book Sheep as a bachelor pad, but I love the wood finish, and it reminds me a little bit of seeing wood on the bridge of Star Trek the next generation. Oh, Enterprise D. Yeah, but obviously the wood is here because of the planet that book is from. And it's, you know, the only thing left of the planet, really, is this sort of wood finish from the forests of Guajong. It was a lovely effect. It's about melting into the programmable manner thing. Yeah. I love the fact they're not afraid to go weird with that special effect. Yeah, it's so good. And, you know, like Star Trek has technical manuals and stuff and oh, here we go. Would you know what? This is the equivalent. I remember when Cisco left the baseball behind and you can't say he'll be back. Well, that's kind of... Actually, I saw her, where's Grudge? and Zora goes, she's 5 metres away. And that... Does he think he's not coming back? That's why he's given another cat. Oh, that's so sad. And he she says shit. Excellent. And that thing, where you can just personally transport from place to place instantly in Star Trek now, which I think is really great the shit comes apart. Yep, the ship's, the, this ship has, discovery has detachable nacelles. Like there's just isn't enough, isn't it, for this show? No. Well, it's got the, it's, it's the spore drive. It has the spore drive equipped. And so here we have. Do you know what I mean? That wasn't such a showy ending? It was just like a pivot story. But it was enticing enough to want you to go on. Like series one, those cliffhangers, they were shot cliffhangers every way, were they, you know? Look at them walking in slow motion in leather. I know what's going on there. wearing fabulous outfits. Man, that guy Vance is so hot, I'm telling you. So hard, isn't it? He's really good. Oh, this was really fun. What's that all about? She was throwing the coin. So the next episode, is it the next episode, next episode of the episode after it's called All In, where they actually are trying to get one another and they go to a casino and they basically play poker and it's just, it's so Star Trek in that the entire poker game is about the state of their relationship. It's really quite fun. And it's nice to see in the middle of this sort of great crisis. Star Trek still does a sort of cheesy poker game episode, you know. They've perfected that, you know, the kind of what's coming up because the after the pilot of Strange New Worlds, the, this is what you're going to see for the rest of the season, although immediately I haven't watched anymore of them. Yeah, I've only watched one. I will get that. I know, I will get, I promise you. There's been a lot happening. Yeah, it was bloody enticing watching that, you know. Yeah, I, you know, I, I really like it because it is, see, I haven't watched the Orville. Orville's come back and I kind of feel like it's maybe we don't need it anymore. Oh, I will, though, because I really... all the way. I know, you said, you know, it's it's not Star Trek, and we've got lots of Star Trek, so what's the point? Yeah, it's less good than Star Trek and less funny than lower decks. I think the visuals on the awful, though. incredible. Like if you want to see good looking TV, Seth McFarlane's making sure that looks bloody good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Penny Johnson's in it, though, you know. I don't think she's in this new season. Oh no, she is. Oh, is she? Oh, okay. seen her in any of the pictures or the trailers or anything. I'm pretty sure she is. I think I saw, I can't remember. I must, I need to rewatch, I think. Um, the, oh, my, the, um, yeah. Anyway, I, I, I think that Strange New Worlds is really properly solidly enjoyable and super entertaining and incredibly well made. They just did their 1st weird fantasy episode where all the characters are playing different. It's like dramatis persona and I only good, where all of the characters are suddenly playing different people in a storybook because of a, you know, omnipotent alien entity. So they're absolutely going, we're Star Trek. We're not in the least bit embarrassed about our cheesiest kind of conceptions and stuff like that, and they just do it solidly well like really, really well. But it's still Star Trek. It's still doing sort of standard Star Trek, things, whereas I think Discovery is pushing things further and doing things that are strange. And I can see it kind of taking the Deep Space 9 backseat role where it's the one that's allowed to do really odd, strange things and increase the scale of the storytelling and tell more complex serialised stories while Strange New Worlds is just solidly doing episodes of the week. I think. Well, this, I mean, maybe this episode isn't entirely representative of the season at large. I couldn't tell you that because I haven't seen the rest of it. I can tell you, I want to see the rest of it on the back of this and I can't think of it more of an endorsement of this episode. But I spent the entirety of season one of Discovery in the back of my head, I was going, this is not Star Trek. This is not Star Trek. Well, I watched this and I was thinking the whole time, this is Star Trek, and it's, and it's bloody good Star Trek at that. Just wait until you get to the end of the, like the last few episodes of this season where it does actual proper science fiction in a way that Star Trek doesn't normally do. You know, normally it's sort of space opera and crap things and technobabble. But when they meet the 10 C, which they do, like the way that they communicate with them is so complex and so interesting, um, and so well done. It's so well done. And it's slow. Like there, there are action sequences and beautiful special effects sequences and all sorts of things, but it is just us trying to get to know a new completely incomprehensible alien race and I've never seen it done as well on Star Trek before. I want to say to whoever's listening to this podcast that if you are like me, somebody who pushed away from discovery, and I know there are people that, you know, had a bad reaction to it, and it felt as if it, you know, was betraying the Roddenberry ideal whatever that means, and all of that, what I would say is, from what I've seen of series 3, and this one episode of series 4, is maybe give these 2 seasons a go. Because I think if you're a Star Trek fan who didn't like those early years, this might be more to your taste. Yeah. And I think it's worth maybe going back and looking at one and two one in particular, because even though it seems to not be very Star Treky, I think that this version of Star Trek, this whole iteration, this whole sort of Kurtzman era, is much, much more heavily invested in the Federation as a place of, you know, I don't want to say liberal ideas because that's, you know, like neoliberal ideas. But there is a kind of, there's a strong ethical core that is tacked on a bit, I think, in 90s Star Trek. They've gone back and kind of read that into 60 Star Trek and then they sort of do it. But this one is absolutely all about that. All of Discovery, all 4 seasons are so much about those ideals. I think the, the, the cynic in me prefers the Star Trek show that deconstructs and possibly abuses that ideal. But I agree with you. I think it is leaning into it intelligently and entertainingly and you know, that's Star Trek. Yeah. Like I think that Deep Space 9's attack on liberalism comes from the left in a way and is absolutely necessary. I think that this is, it's different and it's going out in a completely different political environment and it's, you know Trump and post-Trump Star Trek, which absolutely has to adhere to its ideals, which are now, as we've seen in the last week or so really precarious and under considerable threat in modern America. So I think that Star Trek has things to say about that, which makes me happy. I think this podcast is, I'm very thankful that we've done this because it's allowing me to see a lot more worth in this whole arm of Star Trek that came later on that I pretty much written off and so bring on more. All right, it's time for us to hit untitled Star Trek project.com slash randomiser and pick our Star Trek episode for our next episode. And it's my turn to pick. It is. It's the less exciting of the turns. Off you go. Well, maybe I again am going to try a thing that I've done before which is I'm going to pick Star Trek episode from one of the series that I know least well. And so I am going to go for the original series, the animated series and Enterprise. Okay. Yeah. Also, it's been a bit of a loving lately. We've... Oh, no, Winnie's saying wrong. Dramatic persona, come on. Something that's terrible. Yes, that's true. We did kind of kick that to death. Well, you put enterprise in that. There's a good back. That's right. That's right. All right. So here goes. I'm going to push the button. And it is Star Trek Enterprise. Series one, episode three. So the 1st regular episode. After Broken Bow. No, it's called fight or flight. It's very boring. Very boring. press it again. Oh my god. So this is an animated series one. Series one, episode 10, Muds Passion. A sequel. Yeah, no. It's a good show. That's gotta be agonisingly sexist. Oh, Joe. This is one where you are in print on the internet kicking this one to death. It's season two, episode 14 of Star Trek Enterprise. Stigma. Oh, my God, this is one of the most offensive episodes of Star Trek. Yes, let's do this. This will be a provoking episode. Yeah, well, so normally I'm the one who gets angry, you know, like I was furious at cogenitor and the horrific morality that it embodied just awful. So normally I'm the one who goes on those political rants, but I've read your rant about this one on Doc Oho. This is the episode where Brannenbraga and Rick Berman had to have their arms twisted to do HIV themed episode. long after it could have done some good when, do you not, it means Star Trek wasn't on at the height of the, um, the HIV epidemic, but, you know, like, it is, it is such an insulting... Cowardly episode. It never once stops to consider the point of view of the person who is suffering and it only considers the point of view of those in power that are trying to stop this. It's so terrible. Let's do it. I think because it is a brave thing to do, and it fails in lots of different ways. You've been listening to untitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford and Nathan Bottomley, where online at untitled Star Trek Project com, where you can find links to our Twitter, Facebook, and YouTube channel. Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceran, and the theme was composed by Cameron Lamb. This episode was recorded on the 28th of June 2022 and released on the 1st of July. We'll see you next time for Star Trek Enterprise, Stigma. He was talking about, like, mid, like, sorry, latest award era Doctor Who. honestly, it was like listening to you on Flight for Entirety Two. He was saying exactly the same things. What was this? Who was this? It's on the Blu-ray. Michael Gray does an interview with all about why he cancelled Doctor Who and his career. Oh, for series 22. So interesting. It is the best thing on there. Like, his career is so interesting full stop, but his opinion, like he said, I had no grudge against Colin Baker. I had no grudge against John Nathan Turner. I just don't think he was producing great work. He goes, go and watch one of those stories from that period and tell me if you think that is a responsible use of the license. It's a fee. I was like, Yeah, does sound like you, you know? Actually. He just seemed like a very intelligent blow. that believed in his opinion, like that it just wasn't great. And he goes, he goes, it's just, why would they even make it? They just had no idea what they were doing. It was just like, oh, they've always been churning this shit out. Let's just keep doing it. It wasn't only incredibly badly made on the most part. Um, he said, but then they tried to um, compensate by making it gratuitously violent. He went and that made it look even cheaper. Yeah, yeah. He wasn't wrong. That's great. I'm glad they got him. Well, we'll watch it when you come here. put it on. Have a look. Yeah, it's really interesting. I could have it by then. My order, my pre-order from... Nathan, I don't expect you to watch these Blu-rays, you know. No, I don't. I just sit them on my shelf a little bit. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. All right. All right. Okay. Oh, just let me get my. I do have the notes because there's a lot of extra characters. Yeah, I want to talk about something that weird as a beard, bloody alien prosthetics in this. Some weird, weird looking fuckers in this, I'm telling you. Yeah, but there's no one quite quite Beaumari-ish. Like it's a little bit more... We'll never have the bomar again. More as the pee. No, yeah. All right.