Stigma

Hey, Joe. Hi. I think it's become clear that we have a bit of a fractious relationship with Star Trek enterprise. Do you think that's fair? Uh, yes, I think half of Star Trek Enterprise is the worst Star Trek we're ever going to watch and the other half is possible. And I think you and I have different halves there. I mean, to be fair, I haven't watched it all. Don't you be telling me you think the 1st 2 seasons of Enterprise are possible? Well, no, I don't think they're passable, but I have been hate watching series 3 of Enterprise while I've been, I don't know redesigning the flight through entirety website and stuff. And it is politically miserable. Although I think it does do some interesting storytelling thing. So mostly I don't like it, but there are bits of it that I can admire. And I am actually starting to warm to the just the thing, like the sets and the ship and the regulars, particularly um, to poll surprisingly, trip, of course, and the doctor, who is absolutely magnificent. Well, what's that thing? What's that thing when you're stuck in a prison cell for so long? and then you could get adjusted syndrome. Yeah, you know, these dreary characters are actually, you're starting to see the light with them because you've spent a bit too much time with them. Well, I mean, it's still Star Trek, you know, and I love Star Trek. And even this episode that we're going to watch today, which I think is pretty miserable, has some things going for it, one or 2 things that I think are properly Star Trekier than I quite enjoy. I had to watch this 3 times to see things of worth in it. After my 1st watch. Well, no, my 1st watch was when I wrote the review for my blog where I really went to town at how appallingly, I think, this whole episode is handled. Then I watched it again for this. Then I watched it again, thinking, all right, I'll give it another go and I hated it even more. And this time I watched it and I basically saw a single character and everything that character did in this episode was worth watching, but everything else was pretty terrible. I want to disagree with you. I think season 3 of Enterprise is the best season they did. I think it's very ambitious in how it's structured and for them to do a season-long arc. which is something they've really pushed it away from. Even DS9 didn't attend that. And they wanted to do it, but the suits were like, no, they knew that their cars were marked. So they were like, right, we're going to go out. One last stab at doing something pretty amazing. And I think the hit rate of episodes. Like my favourites are probably your least favourites because I love Star Trek when it's shitting all over the Roddenberry ideals and basically saying, well, sometimes we've got to act like complete bricks to get what we want and I quite like a bit of that. Well, you objected that with some of the DS9s we've watched, you've rejected that as well, didn't you, in like in the Pound Moonlight episodes like that, where you were a bit uneasy with... I think it's a bit cheap. And I think it's a bit easy. And I think that remember this is drama they can do what they want. And so having our regulars behave poorly and not suffer any consequences for it is a choice that they're making. And I just think that it stops being what Star Trek is for at that point. And in, in series 3, we have America kind of going mad after 9-11 and doing all sorts of really quite spectacularly bad things, and then you have enterprise along for the ride, kind of cheering them on. And I think that we'd be better off without a show that did that. And I think that that's the root of what Billingsley said in that interview. What was that from? Ah, it's Trek geeks, I think. is a really good interview because he's not afraid to just say what he thinks, is he? Yeah, he's out of the show now. In fact, he was asked to come back in Kurtzman Trek. and he said I'd rather not, thank you. which I think is incredible. He did come back for an episode of The Orful, didn't he? Did he? I think he might have. But he essentially says, like, he's very proud of what they did but essentially some of the creative decisions in the latter half enterprise he disagreed with, and he felt as if it was turning their back on what Trek should be about. Yeah, I mean, Trek is about sort of hopeful, positive future. You've got Battlestar Galactica where you get people doing real politic because they're in desperate situations. And that's fun to watch, but I don't think that series 3 is that much fun to watch. It is a little bit of a grind. It is. It's very, very serious. I think DS9 gets the light and dark. It kind of does the same thing, but it's a lot more entertaining to watch and the characters are just more fun and better to find. You say there's no consequences. I question that. I think there's there's often like personal consequences for the decisions they make and we've seen them agonising and certainly like in DS9 there were consequences to everything Cisco did down the line. Well, but there's no like, I don't know, what bureaucratic professional consequences, because very very often the federation just goes, well, go on then, do it, you know, like, yeah, we need a way out of this situation. Do your best. Yeah. Well, I certainly think that, you know, people objected to series one of discovery, but I think series 3 of Enterprise is actually properly, politically, really poor in a way that series one of discovery isn't, like I think, a reasonable reading of series one of discovery. It's very, very pro Star Trek ideals. And it puts them in a situation where they're pushed, but they hold. But you know what happens then when you lean in the other direction and you are constantly like affirming those Roddenberry ideals, is you end up with that subplot in Butter Connect, where you're having a whole ton of waffle and you just know where it's going to end up. You're like, wow, they ain't going to go and destroy them. They're going to make 1st contact. And I know they did something interesting with that and I know there was carrot stuff going on. But ultimately, the subplot is very predictable. We know where we're going. Sure, sure. But I think once we've decided that we're all bad asses and we're just going to sort of flout the rules and stuff, that that's also just a little bit tedious and just a tiny bit adolescent. I prefer, sorry, we're way off base there. But I prefer it. Who cares? You know, we do this all the time. I prefer it when the Roddenberry ideals are attacked, not via the regulars, but in something like Valiant in DS9, where they have that group of cadets that are very much like, we're starving, we can do anything, and then they think they can take on that dominion ship, and then they all are murdered at the end of the episode. And it's, it's really confronting and it's like, wow, this is what happens when you tell a bunch of kids that are the best of the best. Yeah. Yeah, and that was, that's a lot more. But at this point in Enterprise, in season two, they're not even thinking on this level. They're not doing anything that interesting. They're not trying to be ambitious. They're knocking out one Star Trek episode of the week after another. And the hit rate is terrible. I said to you before this call. 2 episodes ago. We have precious cargo, which is considered one of the worst episodes of Star Trek, not even Enterprise. And in 2 episodes of time, we've got future tents, which you watched recently, which is a terrible bore. Like there's just, there's no drive, there's no energy. I don't think there's any love for what they're making. at the moment. It's just they're kind of making competent television. Sort of. Kind of. But, you know, like I like Star Trek when it is just the thing of the week and I think that's something that Strange New Worlds does incredibly well and that Star Trek the Next Generation. sometimes does well. And most of the time. They can do those episodes of the week with passion and with energy. And, you know, and, you know, I think Strange New Wells probably does that every week, you know. Oh, yeah. There's, yeah, I'm sure they're loving the fact that they're making Star Trek. This episode we're talking about today is Stigma, which we haven't even mentioned yet. They didn't even want to make this episode. They were contacted by a group and said, would you please raise awareness for, was it HIV or sexually transmitted diseases? That's what the sort of the parallel is in this episode. And instead of sort of saying, right, we're going to grab hold of this, we've been asked to make a statement. They knock out this yawn fest where there is no kind of emotion there's no anger in what they're talking about. There's no. I just don't understand the point of this at all. What are they trying to say in this episode? It is that thing where I think that I think they've taken it back a few 100 years so that we can have a predominantly white and predominantly human crew. They are not particularly interested in the politics of Star Trek and perhaps made a bit uncomfortable by it. And that's why in series 3. They kind of go, oh, well, bugger it, we're dropping it and we're just going to go full on kind of crazy right wing militaristic nonsense. And here they're being asked to do an issue episode, but they're so kind of tentative about it. And the weird thing is that the B plot is about them being tentative about it. The B plot fights against the A plot the entire time. And it's almost like they've got the B plot. They've got the most white bread kind of character on the show Tripp, who is sort of tremendously well acted and really fun to watch. Um, being confused that people are polygamous, even though it's like 2152 or something. It's like, it's so pathetic. But at the time, that was quite a brave thing to put out. I like the fact that they're, I do like the fact that they're just sort of bold faced about it and they just go for it, you know? I really love the big where flocks and his missus go, oh, humans you know, and laugh about him at the end. Which is really, really fun. I thought there was far more bravery in that B plot than there was in the A plot, which is... It's so weird because I just felt as if there were no emotional consequences for anybody at all and nobody was feeling anything. The consequences in this episode are all bureaucratic. all red tape. Will to poll have to leave enterprise. Yeah, yeah. And we know that she won't. So it doesn't really matter. The other thing too is that when HIV was a big crisis, like when it 1st became a thing, there was, there were some people who chose to talk about people who'd innocently court it. So if you caught it through um a blood transfusion or something like that, you'd caught it innocently, but if you caught it off a sexual partner, then you you were somehow to blame, right? And this episode just takes that frame on board and it attacks it both to Paul and Archer reject that frame in what I think is the best thing about the episode. But that frame is there. Well, is it a bit where Archer says, I'm not even going to go there. I don't want to ask her how she got it. Yeah, I like that. And Paul refuses to say. Even once it's clear, she refuses to say. But once we make sure we establish that she's an innocent victim of this condition, we can all just get on with our lives. And the Vulcan who caught it mind melding or whatever, he gets punished. And even though we kind of, we say stuff about how that's terrible. That's still how it ends up. And I still think that that reinforces that way of framing the issue rather than properly deconstructing it. That way of dealing with the issue ends up being the predominant way of the episode ends up thinking about it. And so I think it fails, and I think it fails pretty dismally. Channelling this through the Vulcans, who are, you know, famously completely unemotional, just guts this of any kind of emotional work. Like, and I kept saying to you, think about far beyond the stars. Think about how that grabbed hold of racism and showed a man who was being victimised. And at the end, he has a complete nervous breakdown and he's on the floor and he's crying and I think it's the injustice of the situation and sort of the rawness in Avery Brooks's performance that makes that so powerful. I defy anyone to watch that and not be in tears. I think well out one's watching this. No, no, there's nothing here. And the thing is that too, you have you have a black man who has personally experienced racism in his lifetime. And I can't remember who's writing far beyond the stars, but they are writing something that Avery Brooks has to be willing to do. Well, he directs them. Avery Brooks directs Fargo style. So he has he's got input into it artistically. You know, we know that that Birmingham, Braga and whoever's writing this doesn't really give a shit about this. And there's a kind of complete absence of representation of any of the people for whom this issue is important. And that's what you would never do in modern Star Trek. You know, modern Star Trek doesn't bullshit around with allegories about gay people. It just has fucking gay people in it. And I think that this is a pretty miserable kind of 2nd best sort of thing. I will say again, this was 20 years ago, and the landscape of TV 20 years goes, what's different? And I think, you know, you're able to watch TV 20 years. Of course there were, but it wasn't as prevalent as it is today. It wasn't as accepted as it is today. Um, just going very quickly back to far the other side. The way that plays with you emotionally, the episode is written, so Benny Russell has these amazing highs, right, like his story is going to be published. He's going to marry Casta Yates and then these massive crashes where he gets beaten up in the street by the police officer and you're kind of, you're like literally taking on this insane emotional ride. By the end, you're fucking exhausted. But the point has been made, you know, that it's a terrible fucking thing to endure. This whole episode is a flat, the monotone that everyone talks in. And I'm just, where's the passion in this show, in this particular episode, which is about something important? Ah, just irritated me how dull this was. So I, I find the Vulcan thing inexplicable as well. And I don't know what it is. It's like... writing about the people who did well in science class, you know, they hated them. And it's so dumb. And it just makes me so happy that that's not how the Vulcans are characterised in Kurtzman Trek at all. There's a lot of love for the Vulcans and a lot of understanding of them. And think about a character like Tarina from last week. Oh my god, like, in that one scene? She had more passion in her than this entire episode. Yeah, and she's a lovely character. She's fantastic. Like at the end of this episode, the equivalent of the end of our Beyonce, is where that guy stands up and goes, well, I'm one of the subset of this species. even that wording is so dreary. I'm one of the subset of this species. He says it as if he's putting his hand up going, well, can I go to the loo, please? It's just nothing. Well, actually, we should watch this thing because I'm just going to sit here getting angry. I just think I just think they should have approached this with some anger, you know? Yeah. And they don't. They just don't appreciate with any emotion at all. And so it just has no impact. Yeah, they don't care. So what was the point? Well, it filled in 40? 2 minutes and 52 seconds of runtime, I guess. Nice, true. All right. Probably sold some Toyotas or something. Which I suppose it did make me angry. It did make me feel something. It just made me feel angry for what it wasn't doing. Yeah, it mostly made me fell sleepy. All right. I'm going to count us in. I'll put you awake every now and again then, all right? All right. Okay, here goes. Five, four, three, two, one, and we're off. Off we go. Fabulous establishing shot of enterprise from below. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know what I think of Enterprise. Okay, this scene. are we doing? So this is setting up the problem. So I don't even remember when Tapol had this mind meld, you know? I'm assuming it was in an episode in series one. It was a year ago, they said. Yeah, it was, and I looked it up and I can't remember, but it was. I meant to look at it, but then I couldn't be bothered. Well, she's poured into that uniform. She has to stand there like an action figure because she can't actually move her arms, you know? Yeah, well, so Jerry Ryan had the same problem, I think. Um, This is a very shitty pre-credits thing. It's really short and it's like you could die and it's kind of like, oh, God, really, you've got a disease that we never heard about and that we'll never be mentioned again. Is that right? Will it ever be mentioned again? She gets trillion B addiction. It's season three. Yeah, she starts taking the drugs, doesn't she? And feeling the emotions and all of that. Yeah. Another thing, the thing they did to try and make her interesting. Can I just say very quickly, right, during this type of music? My other half was downstairs and caught the beginning of Enterprise and he's like, oh, I'm going to watch the beginning just see what it's like. And then it started and he went, no, is this the title music? I was like, 0 god, I was reaching for the remote. I couldn't. I still sing. I still literally sing every time the opening credits are on. You know what's really bad? I think I got used to it now. I think, you know, I actually, I pre-empty. I've got I've got the... It's so great. It's absolute dead core middle of the road crap. And it really kind of suits this episode, this series. Like, absolutely... You thought there was a bit of a visual interest here, but it just doesn't really tell me anything about Enterprise until the last 5 seconds. It's the culmination of a lot of white men striving to travel places and I don't know. Like, it's like the history leading up to enterprise. The previous shot is, um, what's his what's his face of ship Zefron Cochrane's ship taking off. A nice shot there from underneath the enterprise. Yeah, look, it's upside down. The French of a planet. They're travelling. They've learned how the ship would go round a planet. If we're in the southern hemisphere. The ship would look upside down if we were looking at it. Here's the character we were talking about earlier, who I think can do no wrong. Dr. Flux. He's so wonderful. Look at the way they sniff at each other ear. I'm assuming it's something to do with pheromones. Yes, but I mean, why like Archer and Trip both look puzzled because of their alien ways. I mean, in space. They see aliens all the time. Yeah, no, no. Wow, aliens say, sure they're weird. I mean, they look exactly the same as us except us. They're sniffing each other. It's not like that. It's just... My dogs do that. I just all the way through this episode. I love flock's relaxed attitudes. as she's, you know, stroking him and touching his leg and there's a bit where I think we're supposed to think he's going to go crazy where she's got her hand on his shoulder and he walks straight up to him and goes, right wow, see you later. I think because because Flux is wearing that sort of Nehru collar and the long sort of jacket thing, I think the 2 of them look like oh, look, that's the CG augmented smile that Dr. Flux did in the 1st episode. So when she smiles, she does the wider smile. hang on. Okay, so now we've talked about this. They can do so bad. I think the scale of it looks quite good, the CGI. But then they put in, they can't do people. people. So you've got these sort of outdo that now. No, they're terrible. And there's 2 of our regulars. Like, 0 no, they're violent. No, that's the, they got it wrong because it's literally they're wearing... And surprise uniforms. Oh, you remember? I think later on, there's two, they just use the same footage. And yet when they go through the door, it's the 2 Vulcans. They're suddenly Vulcans. Yeah, look. I mean, I think there's elements of the design that are good. I actually like the idea of this conference. I like the fact that so the galaxy is a little bit like Earth in the sense that it's Earth having sort of relationships among the countries and stuff and one country has a big international conference and everyone goes to it. And Earth isn't quite used to that yet because we've never had a warp ship before, but now we're going to this, like, there's something about the premise of enterprise that appeals to me, and I can understand why they like it. Like, it's just very early days. It's us doing all this stuff for the 1st time. I don't think that had to be boring. I still think the premise is loading of problems, though, which we have discussed before. These medical conferences, right? I need to make a joke about this all the time, that they're always set on like sex planets and things like that. She would be like, I'm off to rise, I'm off to, you know, another thing. And then every time we went off to one. One, he was kidnapped and replaced by a Dominion duplicate, another one. He was stopped from going and kidnapped by section 31. Like they made one joke after another. He never made it to one conference in the 7 years. And you can see why because they're pretty boring. Well, so the main old Vulcan guy, isn't he crawler from Star Trek the next generation episode 1st contact, the conservative guy who doesn't want to have contact with aliens? I'm pretty sure. He's definitely a that guy. He's done Star Trek before. All I know is he's given these sort of angry lines in this and he just delivers them. Boringly, because he's a falcon, doesn't know how to do it. Yeah. I do like the actress playing Flux's wife, you know. Yeah, I do too. There's a couple of lines in a minute where she goes, right, you've got to insert it in there. Okay. now you can pull it out. come closer to me. Oh my god. Oh, I was taking the neutron on the stream. I was there with a notepad, right? Okay, I'll try that one. Look at Triv Spicy. Oh, God. I don't know. The thick ending of this opening. Here it is. I don't set the thick end into this opening. We can pull it out now. When a woman is being sexually voracious and a man is uncomfortable. I find it perfectly watchable When it's the other way around, I find you really uncomfortable. Yeah. The... There is something kind of sophomoric again about their attitude to sex. It is the usual 90s Star Trek thing about being kind of like failing to be a grown-up about sex. Everyone's a fucking moron about it. And, you know, like this... He's behaving like somebody of the day where polyamory wasn't really something that was discussed very much. So he's behaving. not behaving like someone from the future, where this should probably be the norm by now. I would have had more respect for this subplot. If at the end it had gone, oh, right. Yes, do it. I reckon what I, how I wanted it to end was just the same script that we had, but then Tripp and Fisa look at one another across the thing and just wink to indicate, yes, they fucked and then, or maybe she winks and he kind of gets slightly embarrassed. But that would have been more fun. I think, you know, even it's, it's such American conservative version of sexual morality, you know, and it's that, that sexual morality, that they're critiquing in the A-plot, but that, that trip kind of exemplifies in the B plot. And, you know, he's got his southern accent and he sort of blonde and sweet and calls everyone mam and stuff. But like he's a grown-up. He shouldn't be thrown by the fact that different people have different sexual ethics, but because that's true on earth as well right? It's so... We're kind of saying that, you know, the heterosexual, you know lifestyle, that's it. That's all that's happening in the future, you know. And that's right. And so to the point where both um, both Archer and Tripp are kind of bamboozled by the idea that someone might have 2 wives, even though that happens on earth. Like, it's so bizarre. I can't speak for Brannenbraga and Rick Bourbon, because I do not know about their personal circumstances, but I'm almost willing to bet. They are both heterosexual men power in this show. And I think now in Star Trek. There's a far more diverse pool of lifestyles bringing their input into the show. And that's why we're a lot more comfortable with things being a bit different, you know? Yeah, and just with sex not being like they're so childish about sex. It's pathetic. These are grown adults going on. Was there a little sex on the TV at the time, though? Was it? Well, no, but I mean no one's fucking in this either. I mean, you know, you've got trip reacting to just being a bit close to a lady while he's at work, you know, and not being able to cope with someone hitting on him, even though he's a grown ass man. It's so bizarre. But there's something as well, I know they're putting it in like a science fiction context, but there's something so sanitised about it being a mind milled as well. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, this is limp, isn't it? It's the limpist HIV analogy you could possibly make. That's right. That's right. It's, it's so extracted from anything. She should be absolutely on edge because they've clearly come here for a purpose to expose the fact that she has this panass syndrome. And yet she just sits there going, oh, you've come here for a reason. Like, oh, there's just, there's no life to it. really annoying. You know, I don't think she's all that terrible. I don't think she's, you know, Jerry Ryan, but she's okay. And she certainly does get to do interesting things from time to time. But this flat affect here is just killing this whole episode, I think. Yeah. She does look a bit furtive, you know, like she, she doesn't like she's holding things back. very subtle, isn't it? I don't think they should be subtle in an issue show, you know? Yeah. Is this the fellow in? What he's talking to her now. the one that's got it. Yeah, he's the one that combine me. And again, he should have been younger. I think he's cast too old. There's he's called the younger one, but I mean, that's compared to Croller here or whatever he's called. Um, But it would have been nice if he was sort of younger and prettier. If he was more visibly gay. Like if there was just anything gay about this at all. They were never going to go there, though, were they? They were just never going to do it. I can't, you know, I cannot recall throughout the entirety of Enterprise, if there was a single gay character or... There isn't one in 90s track at all. No, I don't agree with that. I think they initially Garak was written as being a game act. I think Jadzia Dax has moments of bite. Obviously Kira and the alternative. No, okay, it's tentative, but they are making some effort. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But in this show, I don't remember any at all. Not at all. No. So I think, don't you know, those people that object to discovery and things like that and say it's woken all that? It's this they're thinking of, isn't it? thinking back to the good old days of enterprise when everyone was straight. Almost always when people complain about a TV show being woke, it means that there are too many women and people of colour in it. Like, I just think that that's what they're, they want to say. but concealing it behind the word woke. In order to make the idea that you might have women in leading roles in shows, you know, that's obviously ridiculous. Why would you do that? It's just being woke. And especially discovery is how normalised it all is. It's just not commented on half the time, where that lovely scene in, but to connect with the 2 kids, what I call gray and Adira, and then the 2 adults, Stamets and Colba. And they're like this big gay family. But that's never acknowledged. They're just a family, you know. Whereas if DS9 is going to do a gay episode, they have to do rejoined and make it this massive thing, you know, that 2 women are... Yeah, like 2 hot women kissing on television, you know. I was directed by Avery Brooks as well, you know. Issue show. Right, come on. Avery, there you go. Oh, this is that scene. This is that scene where she's literally pouring at him and then flocks just sort of goes, well, have fun, guys. See you later. His face later, though, when Tripp awkwardly says to me, you know your wife's coming on to me. And he's like, yes, did you have her? Did you have a nice rose bath with us? I love all of that. Well, the thing is, like I started saying this before, what he's wearing and what she's wearing. I think they look like swingers. Like, I think it's like they want to get trip drunk and like take him back to their quarters and fuck him. And he's kind of reacting like that as well. And I actually think that that's kind of adorable and almost certainly unintentional. Maybe except on Billingsley's part. Absolutely unintentional. I think, you know what? Had they just had the nerve to be, Oh yeah, and I've got 5 husbands as well, for flocks to say that. you know, that would have been. Okay, this is a bit where Archer, instead of saying, you know, to Paul, are you sick? Do you have a disease? He goes, I've been politically embarrassed by the Vulcans again. God damn you. Yeah. I just thought, he is awful. It just gave me horrible flashbacks to the scenes in cogenitor. Oh, Jenna over the yells at Trip. Not both of them. He yells at him twice and I think they're disgusting. Nathan, he was looking out of that window. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Oh, he's such an asshole, really. He really is. And so I'm actually surprised he does do better in this episode than I expected. And the one thing that I think is good. Like I said at the beginning of this, that this accepts the frame that there are innocent and guilty people who have Panar syndrome. Uh, but Tapol absolutely refuses to say, and just is prepared to lose her job because she doesn't want to, she doesn't want to support that, that frame, and, and he goes along with her, you know, he doesn't force her, he doesn't do his usual sort of stuff about the mission and being a massive brick and stuff like that. He just kind of lets her do it. And I, I like that. I think. But at the end, you know, when they've succeeded and she can stay on the ship and all of that. You think, all right, they have a moment. He just goes, well, I didn't want to lose you. You know what I'm saying? God's sake. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, we don't learn anything about the Vulcans. Like, why do they have this? You know, like they there's nothing about it. You know, they're prejudiced. There's something about diversity. Does that's the best bit. We'll come to it later. But when Archer gets up and has a thing about how we had solved all our diversity problems, you know, a 100 years ago, even though there's only 2 aliens on this ship of 150 people and basically everyone except Travis is wise. That's another reason why this is the most boring Star Trek because the alien characters were always the most interesting. I think back to the original series, right? Talking about like the passion in the show. Like, we've taken that piss out of the fact that the original series can be a bit hammy and melodramatic and all that, you know? I'd take that over this. It had something to it. When did Star Trek become so fucking castrated? Yeah. Well, I mean, it was sort of always a bit boring. Like the big joke about Star Trek the Next Generation was that it was people just giving long speeches to each other. And, you know, both of us have found ways of enjoying that, I think. And the show has done that particular thing very well. But here the speeches aren't all that good either. You know, like, it's all just, like, nothing. The issue shows on 90s track. They go one of 2 ways, don't they? Like, I was comparing this last, I was watching it too. There's another, there's a DS9 episode called Sanctuary where a load of immigrants come through the wormhole. and they fill the station full of these people and they've got horrible flaky skin that goes everywhere and everyone's being terribly racist about them and Kira's trying to rehome them on one of the Bajoran moons to give them. But the Bajorans don't want them. And the idea is, is that the Bajorans are behaving just like the Cardassians and they're turning away. Like, and it's a lot of people talking in rooms, but it's Kira again, realising she's on the other side. That's interesting. There's a mother and son relationship where the son goes off and tries to do a terrorist act. That's got a bit of emotion to it. And it's just, it is framed like this, but it is, it's just got something tangible about it. Whereas this. I mean, this is even worse than that dreadful bisexuality one on Next Generation. You know, with Beverly Fresher. Oh, yeah. The host. The host. You know, where when the host, when the worm goes into Riker, she's like, oh, well, I'm willing to fuck you. And then when the world goes into... when it goes into a woman, uh gets a bit fad and stares, you know, robotically into the camera and goes, well, we're not ready for bisexuality at this point, but maybe in the future. We've never even heard of it in 2489 or whatever it is, for God's sake. I'm just not sure Permanent Braggart. have the cojones to explore any of this stuff. in an interesting way. I think they're fundamentally out of sympathy with the premise of Star Trek. Like, they're happy for it to be space people doing things and that's a massive thing about Star Trek that we love. That's why I can still derive some enjoyment from this and why I still care about it. But I don't think they're into the politics of it at all. And I think that that's why they took it back. Um, so that they could be a sort of pre-diversity version of the galaxy, you know. What about, um, what about Hoshi and, uh, or, you know, all the other regulars in this? They get one scene apiece, don't they, in this? Yeah. One of them's been playing something with melons or something isn't they? Yeah, so Travis plays the Miles O'Brien on Star Trek, the next generation role of just sitting there talking about some sporting thing that's caused him to injure himself while the doctor fusses over it. Do see his very impressive washboard app, so don't we? No, Travis is a good looking man. I don't object to that. Hoshi is used because Tripp tries to keep her at the dinner table when Flux's wife comes along. And she's like, no, I've got to go. And then and then she realises there's something going on it and she's out of there very fast, Hoshi. But it's it's, that's the most I've seen Hoshi do in an episode of Enterprise. Like, really? We've done 4 or five. Yeah, she's hardly been in them. She gets the old episode where she's spotlighted, but really she doesn't do a lot. It's the original series thing again of the 3 core characters isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What's happening here? To Paul's looking a bit perturbed, staring at a screen, you know? She's looking at things on the internet. you can say. She's probably on, you know, she's on one of those medical websites that tells you you have cancer. I reckon that's it. There's a bit in a minute, right? Where he goes down to the medical conference and he goes, right you know, I'm invoking this law that we're going to have a hearing about this thing, right? And I don't think archers ever look so pathetic and castrated when the guy just goes, all right, we'll have it. And then he just walks into the next room. The door shuts on Archer and he's standing there going, yeah, we're going to have it or something. It just looks so pathetic standing there. And I was like, this guy just, it's weird because it's Scott Bacular and he should be amazing. It just doesn't have the presence of someone like Avery Brooks or Kate Mulgrew or something has gone fundamentally wrong with how they have characterised Archer and I can't quite put my finger on what it is because he's a great actor. He's a terrific actor. Yeah, I agree. It is it's baffling how unlikeable they make him. And, you know, he's just fundamentally charming bacular, I think. And I don't know. I just can't believe it. This made me laugh this, this, um... the photo blow up. It's New York in the background, isn't it? But it's like it doesn't read like they're in a city. It reads like someone has blown up a photo and pasted it on the wall. That's because that is exactly what they have done. But you know what this looks like? I've got some old open university videos of BBC Shakespeare productions, where, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah columns and that. You know, it all looks very, very, uh, too big. them very well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, this looks like with a bloody Star Trek budget. Outrageous, isn't it? There are times when I watch these 90s episodes and more and more now as we're doing this thing together. where I'm like, all right Kurtzman Tregg does have the edge. Yeah. It's like he's the gay Vulcan. He's been... No, he's not gay. I mean, there's nothing there's nothing about him at all, is it? No, no. I thought he was going to like my Mel with her at this point and I could do this, you know, then. Yeah, no, but, you know, she doesn't, she's an innocent. She's an innocent person who has banana syndrome. Like, what kind of interesting twist or turn could possibly happen in this story? It's ripped away from the enterprise and publicly humiliated. No, that's never going to happen. We're never going to hear about this man ever again. So who cares about him? You know, they're going to upturn Vulcan society and expose this thing. No, that's never good. We don't even learn anything about that. either. We don't learn anything about it. Like, or like no one learns anything. Or any detail about these people that have the ability to do it. Like, are they, are they having massive mind-meld orgies or something? Like, what do they object to? What is the problem? Yeah, we don't know. Well, they do say. No, they say, that because... It's an American society. No, the expression of emotion is regulated in Vulcan society. And do you remember the thing where to bring and Spock were kissing in the restaurant in the 1st episode of Strange New Worlds. And the waiter came up and said, I think you'd better take this somewhere else. And Dupring says, yeah, let's do that. I knew to point out that that was a restaurant. thought that was their bedroom. They were getting so tasty with each other. I'd rather have that in the mess, though, you know? So yeah, so it's about the regulation of emotion and these people are sharing emotions with each other whereas emotions should be concealed or controlled. And so that is kind of a thing that sort of Vulcanish and makes sense, but it doesn't teach us anything about them. We don't, you know, nothing comes of this. And I just think it's ridiculous making the Falcans such assholes. They're really racist in this as well, in enterprise. They really dreadful. Do you remember that episode of TNG violations when that fella comes onto the ship and he's mind raping people? And it's quite for the time. No, no, but it's quite confronting for the time because Troy is traumatised by what she goes through. And the dream sequences that they do are quite adult and they're filmed in quite an uncomfortable way. Well, because they're about rape. Like one of them, what happens to Deanna is she dreams that he's forcing herself himself on her. So I think it probably tips over the line a bit, but at least it's trying. Do you know what I mean? At least it's doing something. It makes you feel something when you watch it. It makes you feel uncomfortable. yeah Yeah. I think that's the worst thing I feel uncomfortable. That's the worst thing of all is I just don't care. And I am invested in this topic. My ex-partner had HIV. And I remember I showed him this after I watched this and I didn't say what it was about. And at the end, I said what it was about and he went, was it? Like, he didn't even get it. fucking HIV? For God's sake, you know, like... No. It's, yeah. Yeah, sorry, I just talked all over you trying to mention that uh Fox's wife was... Oh, just, yeah, did they, like, playing Footsie under the table again, in a sort of just dismally kind of adolescent conception of how adults behave. Tripping Malcolm Reed now in the gym talking about how desperately uncomfortable this all is. Could this be any more heterosexual this show? Honestly. Yeah, what is this gym? Jesus Christ. And you are right. Like, these sets are dull, aren't they? Like, I, I, even compared to like how they lie, DSI and Voyager. And they came before this. Yeah, it's the even lighting. I actually think the idea that it looks like a submarine is actually a pretty good idea because the Enterprise looks like a cruise ship or something like that in Star Trek, the Next Generation, and it's very plush and very comfortable, and they want to take it back to its roots, make it feel like we're in space. But the lighting is so evil. It's all coming from above again, isn't it? Rather than coming out. That's right And so I don't mind the details of the sets, but I hate the lighting. I think. What I like about these sets is how it feels like they could fall apart any minute. So when they're attacked. And I really like the engineering set because they have to climb all over it to get things done. So there's a lot of movement going on. And like there's one. I don't know if you've reached there. one in series 3 where they're on the bridge. They being attacked by the Zindi left, right, and centre, and the whole bloody light from the top of the set comes crashing down and Tripp has to get out of the way pretty quick. It feels it feels a bit unstable, you know, and any minute it could fall apart of the seams because they are new to this, aren't they? Yeah, it's very cool. I think there would have been a way of doing it, a way of doing it that made it look better. that made it look more like a submarine. Reflective services, for instance. You know, make everything look like it was made out of metal instead of, you know, like a bloody t-shirt printed. More reflective services written on it, all right? Does this determine your enjoyment of TV? It really does. I've only discovered doing this podcast how much it matters and this is just, this is so boring for that reason. I haven't had a look on that. Ralph, you know. I'd love to know what the actors thought. about this script. Yeah. Yeah, just imagine themselves saying, can you imagine them saying in, you know, like an oppressed thing, oh, you know, we were very proud to be tackling this thorny issue 20 years late or whatever 15 years too late. You know, like, and we think we've been very brave and stuff like that. I just think I would have wanted to smack them all. They probably are very proud about what I did here. We tossed them a bone. you know, we did we did our bit. Yeah, but this, like, I thought that that was, to Paul was really good there. And that's the sort of thing that you might expect Archer to kind of push back against and he doesn't. So that speech where she says, I'm not telling them how I got it because it doesn't matter because there aren't good and bad people with Panar syndrome. It's just a disease. And, and, you know, um, she's doing the right thing and he, he kind of looks, I don't know what I'm going to do, but he, he backs off. he decides to rising and go down and it's interesting because he's the only one that's behaving emotionally in this. He's quite angry that he went and bashed on the door and said, get out of here, you know, we're going to have a hearing, blah, blah blah. But we hate him so much. We don't really care that he's angry. Yeah. Yeah. It's a bit miserable. The other thing that I think was interesting was the, um, them saying that they weren't putting much effort into researching Panar syndrome because it was only bad people who got it. And I thought that that was interesting. And I don't know what the rhetoric was around that or how people felt at the time. I can't remember at all. And obviously we're in a sort of weird situation where there are all kinds of treatments and things now that are pretty effective. You watched It's a Sin, didn't you? Russell Davis is a sin. Now, I think there's there's a 102nd scene. Yeah, that encapsulates the horror of HIV better than 40 minutes of enterprise here. That's the bit where Neil Patrick Harris's character dies and then we cut to them rushing into the room, changing the bed, turning the mattress. It's like, right, he's dead gone next. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or just the stuff about people being locked in rooms and being given their food. Do you know what I mean? Like having to stay away from the door and the way that people were isolated and stuff like that. And like, it's enough to provoke an angry response in you. Yeah? Yeah, yeah, yeah. What's this? You know, they might transfer someone to so that they're not on our TV show anymore. It's not the stakes are not that high. Old, as is absolute. There we go. My interest has perked up a little bit. He must, they must have fell so like these were the most thankless roles they've ever had. Yeah, it's miserable, isn't it? I mean, it is just like, even the, the, the sort of the most neglected character on, say, Voyager, I know, Chakotay, Harry Kim they all had a couple of episodes a year where they came out. I think there's one episode that he gets in the four-year run that's about his character. It's not great. No, it's miserable. And Hoshi gets more, doesn't she? I'm sure I've seen like one a year, I think. If that, yeah. She, you know, Bushy gets the wonderful uh 2 part Mirror Universe episode where she's the Giorgio character, the evil bitch just trying to take over and she succeeds as well. I think she kills half the crew. That sounds really good. It's really good. This is so TV, isn't it right? So, Tripp wants to speak to the doctor. It's not about something medical. It's about how his wife wants to fuck him. And Travis has to leave the sick bay because we've decided we're having this scene in this set. Normally he would say, Travis, just wait there a second. I'll go out here in the corridor and have this conversation. You have to wait this out before. Oh, it was... Did you remember? Jake and Nog and Cisco having dinner when Marsok came in. Everyone has to leave because we're talking to Martok in this set. We're not lighting the corridor for this. We should have hung a lantern. All right, we'll go then, shall we? Okay, that's right. I'm injured, but I'll go, will I? I'll take these abs out of here straight away. And even that was like, you know, stay away from those creatures. You know, I was just like, oh, it's mine. Yeah. And the detail about it was that he didn't know whether they were melons or not. Like we play this game. We throw melons. I guess they're melons and I thought, all right, that's a thing. Did you watch that episode towards the end of the season? I mean, I think it's a fairly solid little run at the end of this season as they head into three. But there's one really terrible episode where Tapal is suffering from, what's it called? The, when they get really horny, the Vulcans. Oh, upon far. Yeah, Bonfire. And she's literally going around the ship, literally, and the whole thing's framed like horror movie that she's going around trying to fuck everybody. And it's just like, I'm not sure what this show's trying to say about sexuality at all, you know? We wear women's of plough meek soup at people and stuff like that. Married with this episode. It seems to be saying, you know, men, beware women that are horny you know, you're being a lot of trouble. It's so pathetic. Like, be a grown up. And I love his reaction. I love the way the doctor reacts. It's just like, for God's sake, she's a great lady. Just have sex with her. Don't be such a baby. I just, I just think uh, sexuality and not is is something that we will always come back to and always cringe just a little bit. Yeah, I think every now and again. Every now and again, like Cisco Cassidy will be like, okay, this feels like a real relationship, you know, but it's still in between. Yeah, that might be the only one. Oh, even this, but here she goes, oh, yeah, yeah, no, they're never going to agree to a conference. Oh, well, I've already arranged it. It's like, oh, what's the fucking point of that? dialogue. They are envied. And it's just like she's packing a bag. It's so boring. Do you remember Beverly paying her bag at the beginning of suspicions and she's got like a tennis racket and shit and it's like, she's got fun luggage to pack. Do you remember? When Kira was reassigned in the 2nd episode of series two, DS9, and everyone comes to visit and they did a whole French fast scene where she's like, I do care. No, they haven't. No, they didn't. She's talking to about 10 people. you know? I hate to say it again. There's an exception to the rule. Yeah. Well, don't worry. DS9 had plenty of scenes where people were packing up to go and then someone walked in and went, oh, don't worry, I'll sort with it. You know? Oh, it's the same bloody CGI shot. This CGI shot. I reckon there's an episode of Lower Deck series 2 called An Embarrassment of Duplers, which is set on this old space station and I reckon they use design cues from this episode on that space station, and if I was a more dedicated podcaster, I would have looked it up. But I think that this absolutely reminded me of that. It's where they go for the captains, all the captains, uh, of all the ships that aren't California class get to all go to a big party. That's all of them at this point, I'm afraid. We've left Enterprise now, right? So I just want to ask you, what's the predominant colours in these fascinating sets on the medical conference? Brown. It's really boring. Yes, the predominant colours of all the costumes here. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, everyone's doing drabber to look at. Yeah, it really is, isn't it? It's the future. It should be exciting. Like, why don't they have, it's so boring. Like there's some kind of hippie details in the background with a candles and shit. I'm going to go back to... Remember how colourful everything was? Even Spot's brain, we went to all those sets that were pink and you know, crazy had crazy gels up the walls and things. When did Star Trek get so boring looking? I think that, I mean, I think TNG reacts against the, the kind of um, technicolour, you know, primary colour thing of, of original Star Trek. And everything ends up looking a bit worse. Everything ends up really beige and stuff. Even the 1st Star Trek movie is all a bit brown, isn't it? Like the sets are just not that great. I don't know. But like, do you remember? I don't know. He's the gay Vulcan making a speech, which is shocking croller over here. And it is being spoken about in terms of, oh, it's so milk toast and so pleaty. you know, like, yes, we're gay and we just can't help it and we want you to stop being mean to us. Can I quote something in like reaction to this? You ready? You cannot destroy an idea. It's true. I created it. Okay, he's a bit over the top. Bloody hell. I felt for him in the moment. Yeah. No, but and so they've decided, is it because they've decided to give it to Vulcans and Vulcans who just think the chief thing about Vulcans is they talk like space people so that we don't care about them, which wasn't what Spock did. He didn't talk like a space person. Are we supposed to hate the Vulcans? we supposed to really dislike them? I think we are. Yep. Well, why do we spend so much time on our own characters that we're not supposed to enjoy? So the point of the Vulcans, don't the Vulcans... They hold them back. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So his dad would have gone out in space a lot quicker. if that's right. The Vulcans hadn't held. If it hadn't been for them, pesky Vulcans and they're racing. I think he died before Archer had the opportunity to go out, so he really known about it. And yet, that was his biggest dream, his dad. I think that was Archer's issue in the 1st episode. Right. Oh, look, look. Grow up, trip. Jesus Christ. They're just sniffing one another and he's looking off in another direction. sniffed them as well. Let's all sniff each other. Come on. Well, if you if you want to be invited to one of their parties. Everyone, put your runabout keys in the pot. Okay? Yep, yep, exactly. We've got plastic bags for your clothes. Did, um, can I ask, did, do you think, um, looking for a market in all the wrong places dealt with sexuality better than this one? We watched that recently. Um, I mean, it had Dax who was just frothing for war throughout. It wasn't realistic and it wasn't growing up, but it wasn't adolescent. It was sort of TV realistic sex. you know what I mean? And I did think, like, there were elements of the Kira Miles thing which I thought were kind of fun and funny and okay. I still love that line, that line when they realise they've gone too far. Yes, it's like just go. just go. I'm going to go and see Goldfunk Shakar. You go and fuck your wife and we'll just never talk about this again. You know what I mean? Like, that was that was kind of okay. But Julian was a prick in that one. Do you know what I mean? Oh, I bet you caught. I bet you caught a look at oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I guess not pretend people. Let's not pretend that people like that don't exist. I know, but it's pathetic. You know, it's they're pathetic people. I think I said something about a bloat yesterday, do you know? No, that's different. Oh, is this where they're going, oh, well, you can hang around now great, great. So what's going to happen to these people? I'm not sure, really. No, nothing. Sure, that'll be all right. them again. Jesus Christ. Oh, wow, you must be very disappointed that he broke his promise to you. It's all about you. He broke his promise because he wanted to make the political point she wanted to make and Archer always puts the blame in the wrong place, doesn't he? Yeah, yeah, yeah. He never quite figures out the root of what the problem actually is. There is just almost a sense in which the episode thinks that Eurus should say that, thinks that he should out himself and say that she's innocent, and that that's a reasonable deal, because we're just kind of happy for the episode to end. That's a good happy ending for everyone except Yuros, who's lost his job, but he just kept mind melding with people and he completely deserved it. I just think it's an absolute failure as an issue episode. Like just miserable. What is fun? What did you take away from it? What did you take away from it? What did you learn? What did you, you know, what did you learn about the characters? What did you learn about the disease? What did you learn about the people that are spreading this thing? What did we learn about Vulcan society apart from the fact they're pricks? We knew that already. Yeah, yeah. Well, they're racist and horrible and homophobic and just dreadful and the show sort of is as well. So are the human characters in this. Yeah. I'm not sure who we're supposed to like. I think the worst thing, like, where's Tripp's big dick energy? That guy, I've seen him with his shirt off, like he's, he should not be as awkward about sex as he is in this episode. He's a very, very handsome man. But they love they freaking love putting Tripp in that situation because in the 3rd episode, they make him pregnant. So they make him, you know, experience things from the woman's point of view there. I think he's the one that to Paul's hunting through the ship in that episode later in the season. So, you know, he would be. Oh, it's all just very terrible. And he into Paul hype sex in series three. I genuinely think this period, so you've got your precious cargo you've got your stigma and you've got your future tense. This is like the Nadir of the Star Trek franchise. This is all that was coming out and it's all pretty terrible. So I'm surprised they survived this 2nd year. I'm honest. I think probably at this point they're just exhausted that they've done what, you know, 21 seasons of this. They've got a premise, which they thought would be interesting, but they've just basically been doing Star Trek things again. And they've kind of run out of things to do. And the characters aren't interesting or likeable enough. And so they've got a bit of a problem, I think, to do something interesting going forward. They fundamentally had to rewrite the entire show. Put it in a new section of space and bring in a whole new reef of alien characters to do anything original with this show. If you'll indulge me. I've got a quote here from Brandon Bragger and Rick Berman before we go about this fantastic issue episode that they have written. Brandon Bragger remarks, we're not here to provide answers to questions. We're here to provoke thought about an issue. This episode stands on its own, even if you don't draw the analogy. It's still an interesting episode because it deals with general prejudice. The metaphor will be clear to some people. That's right. That's really aiming high. We're here to provide answers. Well, we do. Well, thank you very much for not providing an answer. So there's a terrible problem that happened 15 years ago. Rick Berman says they didn't actually say they'd like us to come up with a storyline. They invited us to a presentation they had, which was quite impressive that they asked all the producers on the lot to attend which Brandon and I did. This episode depicts the Vulcan physicians as unwilling to supply research, medicine, or preventative efforts in order to stop the spread of this disease, simply because they don't control the behaviour of the Vulcan subset. Oh, he even says it in the quote adult. Many in today's society believe that is this kind of intolerance and ignorance that allows HIV AIDS epidemic to spread. In this case, the people are genetically capable performing my males. This is all something that would be different in the age of Kirk and Picard, but in our century, there is definitely a stigma against people who go against normal mors and policies and attempt this very emotional and intimate act of a mind man. What is he talking about? Well, he's trying to talk about this without mentioning gay people at all. And that's the thing, they are so uncomfortable about it, and that's what's wrecked this episode. And interestingly, there is one other point on memory alpha whereas some critics, such as John Ruck of the Boston Herald, felt that this episode was far too vague in dealing with prejudice based on sexual orientation. honestly. Nathan, I don't think we're going to see an episode of Enterprise that is as dreary as that one. Yeah, I'm hoping. It's possible. All right, it's time for us to pick our next episode, and so Joe is on Untitled Star Trek project.com slash randomiser, and can you tell us which series we're choosing from? All of them. Because I think that's a low effort choice. The default choice. Oh, okay. No, no, no, no, no. hang on. fine. I've been guilty of it quite a lot. Except I'm going to keep pressing the button. Until I get a two-parter. There you go Oh my god. That could take forever. There aren't that many times. No worries, my payoff. I got time. Okay. Okay. I'll be embarrassed by the process before we reach a two-parter, I think. All right. Go for it. So my 1st episode is Star Trek, the Next Generation, season seven. Oh, dear. Parallels. Oh, that's actually fun. That's wharf. Hop into lots of alternative, yeah. And that's where he 1st starts boning Troy. Yes, that's true. He realises they're in a relationship. Oh, Nathan. Oh, I'm going to hold this up to the screen. It's not a two-parter. We might have to do it. Okay, show me, show me, show me. It's Deep Space 9. Season seven. Episode 15. Bada bing, bada bang. Oh, I think so. Yep. Yeah. Although we can't do another comedy, DS9 episode. Can we? We're giving people the wrong impression about this show. All comedies as far as I'm concerned. Even the one where Norglooses his leg. You sure? We done a DSM recently. Yep we're doing it. Oh okay. I mean, is everybody dressed as the nines? It's the highest episode. Penny Johnson Gerald's in there being fabulous. Yep, there's a musical number at the end. There's a political issue that they deal with without filing all the serial numbers of it. It's properly good. 90s trek, no reflective surfaces, but I'm absolutely fine that I don't mind. And my challenge to you is this. I defy you to watch this episode and tell me that the score isn't fantastic. Oh, okay. Yep. All right. All right, let's do it. You've been listening to untitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford and Nathan Bottomley. We're online at untitled Star Trek Project.com, where you can find links to our Twitter, Facebook, and YouTube channel. Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Cisrin, and the theme was composed by Cameron Lamb. This episode was recorded on the 5th of July 2022 and released on the 8th of July. We'll see you next time for Star Trek, Deep Space 9, batter bing batter bang. Hello, I'm talking, and it's working. Although I seem to be very quiet for some reason. What about you? No, you're very loud in my ears right now, not quite at all. You're right. You could turn your volume down. Oh, yeah, I could do that. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, doesn't matter. We'll be equalised. each way. a second. Wait a second. Okay, I want to, hey, Joe, hi, and then I want to say something. Um, but bum, bum, bum, bum. I have a thing if you want. Okay, I'll flow to you. Yeah. Yeah. Hey, Joe. Hi.