Looking for par’Mach in All the Wrong Places

Hey, Joe. Hi. So, we're in for a lot of special effects and a lot of space battles this week. Shut up. There are no special effects and no special. In fact, there's not even a space problem in this episode. No. Star Trek, Star Trek episode. This is DS9, the sitcom. Yeah, and we've had that before because this is kind of positioning itself as a sequel to House of Quark, which was the... The same characters. It's the same romance. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, one of the things that Star Trek can occasionally do, and what Deep Say sign can kind of, um, you know, frequently do is just hang with the characters because it's not a space problems show. It's not a Star Trek show in that sense. It's, you know, show set in the Star Trek universe. And one of the things that I always want when I'm watching Star Trek is to know what it's like to just live in this world rather than, you know, boldly go somewhere in a spaceship. I mean, like there's like a bold stab at saying, I think DS9 is at its best when it isn't doing what Star Trek normally does, which is I don't think it's ever really at. Well, we watch dramatis personae recently, which is doing a TNG episode. I think it was boring as hell. You know, this is really fun. the episode this is. Yeah. Yeah, I think, like, what's the thing? The show just isn't set up to do space problems because it's not a crew. And while people are defined by their jobs, their jobs are things like, you know, bartender and stuff. So it isn't really set up for that. And what it ends up reaching for instead is kind of galactic politics and just kind of weird hang time on the station with the characters. basically the last 4 seasons. It settles on Eva, galactic politics or kind of like intense character dramas. Yeah. And it can do both of those really well. When it's at its best, it's when it marries the two. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I mean, the way it does that, I think, is by having each kind of galactic power represented by a single recurring guest star. You think about Ducat, for instance, you know, he generally represents whatever the Cardassians doing, but he has a relationship of some kind with Kira. And so that works on a character level as well as a sort of political level. So they get to do that. Here, though, there's not really much galactic politics, it is a sort of funny thing because it is a kind of episode that doesn't rely on the premise to be kind of possible, except that everyone's kind of wearing latex and talking about made up history things and like all of that. And that's kind of fun because they're particular Star Trek things. So we still enjoy it as Star Trek, but it's doing something a bit different from what we used to. You know what I call this episode. I always used to call it the one where everyone's really horny. Dax is horny for wharf. O'Brien and Kira are horny for each other. Wharf is horny for grill car. Walk is horny. I mean, honestly, God. I mean, I've never related to a Star Trek episode more. Understandably, this isn't what some people are looking for in Star Trek. and I get that. And I have heard this episode criticise as, you know, being the antithesis of what the franchise should be doing. They're wrong, but... I think they're wrong. I mean, I like this a lot because the characters on Deep Space 9 were always a bit better drawn and a bit more interesting than their predecessors on Next Generation. And so you can just give them fun things to do. And during the week. We posted, you know, like our top 5 TNG episodes. And while disaster didn't make it to my top five, it's very near there, and that is just because there's the most rudimentary space problem that you can get away with on TNG, and the rest of the time is just us hanging with the characters, and that's fun. Two of my 5 were family at lower decks and there's no space normally to be seen in those. That's just focussing on really well-drawn characters. I tell you something else that I was very aware of when I was watching this. And that is just how well Ron Moore. What a witty writer he is and how well he writes comedy. He also writes our man, Bashir. He also writes Better Bean by the Bank. He also writes, take me out to the holosuite. You know, he's a really funny writer. It actually makes me think of Battlestar Galactica, you know, and just how dour and bleak that is. Yeah, miserable, ladies. I'm doing it right. It's a phenomenal television. Superb. Man, no, man, it could have been lighted up a bit because this guy can write, you know, he can write comedy. But this is this is that kind of like, you know, because he also wrote one of your favourites as well. He wrote in the cars. Yeah, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's wonderful. Gosh, I love that. And that's at the end of this season. This is right at the beginning of the season. That's right. And they're both kind of light, aren't they? And before the season gets serious, basically, you know? Did we record an in the cards? Yeah we do. commentary back in the day. So I have it sitting on my hard drive somewhere. We're doing a completely different podcast. Yeah, that's right. We should release another bonus of Star Trek project. Yeah, yeah. Well, I, I mean, I loving the cards a lot. And it's precisely because it's hang time before we get a lot of action. And it's terribly enjoyable. And this, what, this is episode three. So presumably the 1st couple of episodes kind of tie up whatever was happening in series four, the Klingon war. things are starting to return to normal. And series 5 is a kind of weird interlude between the Klingon war in 4 and then the full outbreak of war with the Dominion in 6. So there's time for some high concept episodes and time for a bit of hang time as well. And I think I really like that. Friend of the podcast, James said that he thought that series 5 spins its wheels a bit because we're in between 2 big events. And it looks like the Klingon war wasn't where they expected to go initially. So things are a little bit sort of strange. It was foisted upon them by the studio. They say we want we want to be things up with the Klingon. So they were originally going to do the Dominion War and that was going to start at the end of three, the beginning before and they had to put it aside for like a season and a half . Not to contradict that joke, but season 5 of DS9 is my favourite Star Trek season. the hit rate of episodes this year is phenomenally good. And to go back to something I said to you before as well, the diversity of what this show brought out before this episode is the ship, which is a very dark piece. After this episode is nor the battle to the stroll, which is as bleak as DS9, I guess. And then after that, it's like trials and tribulations. Like, this show is just knocking them out at this point. But you never quite knew what you were going to get from one week to next. really like that. Yeah, yeah. And that's, I think, you know, that's absolutely not what you expect from Star Trek, the Next Generation, or Star Trek, or even the Strange New Worlds, you know, you expect a space problem for competent people to solve. I think by instead having this sort of mad variety of characters and just any number of things that you could do, a different thing each week is a pretty good thing for Deep Shace 9 to aim for. It's just unpredictable as well, isn't it? That makes it really like I was never quite sure what genre they were going to tip their hat to from one week to the next and that was really exciting. Yeah. Well, I'm ready to go and watch things. you know what? I think we're gonna enjoy this a lot. Yeah, yeah, I think we are too. I had real fun with it. when I was watching it last night. Let's get ready. All right, I'll count us in. Five, four, three, two, one and we're off. Oh, man. Who hasn't done this? Stood outside listening to people having an argument. Oh, this is so neat. So Julian is funny in this episode, but there's one or 2 scenes where I think he absolutely doesn't come off and there's one scene in particular, which I dislike enormously. Better not be thinking about that infirmary saying because I love it. Yeah, it's terrible. But this is adorable and it's very English as well. You know, like he's being caught, listening at a door and he does this sort of elaborate. Oh, my neck or whatever you know, and looks embarrassed. And this, because, you know, Berengi have comedy latex ears. And obviously, canonically they can hear things. He should have like twitter them a little bit, like an antenna, I should be, like, you know, just tune in. Oh, it's so funny, yeah. In a minute when Kfer goes in, he's like, oh, let's stop. Show's over. Come on, let's go. Well, the fun thing is, I was actually, here's Keiko, and I'm kind of going, wait, so what's happening here? Because I had forgotten that we were obviously at the stage of this sort of weird high concept pregnancy. No, no. At least they let her be pregnant. All right. They didn't shove up behind a console or in a medical jacket. Let the woman be pregnant. And she, none of us just says that. She says like, thank you so much for allowing me to actually, you know, take part. That's one episode where she beats the shit out of somebody with her baby sticking out. It's amazing. I think it's really good. And the reason that I think it's good is, and the reason obviously they went for it is that it gives Kira new things to do, and she's used to being physical, she's used to kind of being in charge, and now she has these, you know, O'Brien fussing over her and stuff like that and trying to restrict her. Oh, here we go. KK was wearing it as well, that sort of fabulous tuning. Oh, I love that. show up. And you know what? I, I, this is an episode where they're using Keiko for comedy and they don't do it very often with DS9 and I'm very grateful when they do. Because Rosin Chow is very funny. She really is. She fantastic. like him that baby? Disaster. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She sort of highlights of disaster. I'm trying. And I just put out some... And I just went out the lighting. Okay, I know I said I was going to talk about this. But this is so, so nicely lit compared to dramatis personae. I feel like, yeah, 4 seasons later and they're starting to make it look like home, you know? Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's all that thing about the set is that there's just lots of interesting backgrounds that you don't quite know what they are and lots of practical lighting, no fucking reflective surfaces, obviously, but it is interesting to look at, I think. This was so nice because, I'll tell you what, there's one thing that kind of got wrong in the otherwise spectacularly wonderful season 4 of DS9. It's like warf was such a grump. Yeah, it's quite grumpy. Well, it's nice to see his eyes lit up, you know, he's a horny beggar. Yeah, seeing a nice, beautiful Klingon. Now, do you know what? The way that hangs around him in this entire episode, basically trying to get him to know his... I think that she's terrific in this. I think, you know, like, I think it works pretty well. She's a little bit too passive, but I do like that she takes control and later on she's described as the aggressor in their relationship because she's started. are coming on to you, Nathan. All right. This hug made me so happy. I just thought it was so sweet, the 2 of them meeting one another again. In a way, I was a little bit disappointed that Quark wanted to have sex with her because I thought that they kind of had a lovely relationship going. You know, she was going to tear his face off last time, but it's been a while and they kind of get together and appreciate one another as old friends. I like it a lot. I do like I do like the fact that they they give him a romance core. Yeah, you know, rather than just, you know, the latest dodgy deal. And House of Quark didn't go down that route at all, did it? They inadvertently became good friends because of they go through. He does touch the inside of her thigh and then get warned off. Interestingly, Almond Shimmerman says. I was reading memory alpha. I mentioned that says that he had a romance story in season two. Um, with, uh, I think it was a Cardassian woman. Oh, and he plays it uh, very over the top and like he says, like very hard on his sleeve and he didn't quite come off. And even when he watched it back, he wasn't all that convinced. And he says, no, no, for a romance, it's got to be a bit more quark, a bit more, kind of laid back and a bit more savvy, you know. And after he watched this one, he said, yeah, we got it right. We got the quaro, that's right. Yeah, I think I think it's really good. I think there's that bit where Dax says, actually, just don't be a massive dickhead on this date. You know, don't look at her. Don't look at her cleavage. Don't talk about wanting to have sex with her, like just chill the hell out. Um, and so he isn't, you know, he often, that's how they play Quark. I was watching he said not a note. And I was like, I'm not sure whether Quark gets the best lines or whether just Armand Shipman delivers them beautifully. Yeah, it's probably a combination of both. A bit where he goes... Sorry? Sorry. Just watching the opening credits properly for the 1st time in a while and the bit where the defiant goes past the cameras. I missed a bit with the 2 little people spacewalking across towards the pylon. I love that. It's the only bit of visual we trust to me. Yeah. Um, Okay. So here we go. Romance is about to begin. Yeah. Well, I can't recall why she's come here. Has she come here for him to look over the books? She's come here to be in this episode. It is, it is to look at the, so there's Mary K. Adams credit. Um, man, David, how many, how much mileage have they driven out of that bloody prune juice joke? Yeah. So, and there's Phil Morris, who was a sort of semi-regular guest star on Seinfeld. He was like Kramer's lawyer and he plays this hot Klingon bodyguard with just the best bone structure. When you get a look at him, he's really happy. Okay, I was going to say, I told you that me and my mother watched DS9 through. one of my fondest memories of her is the experience we had of watching this show from beginning to end. It was one or 2 that we watched together. And I vividly recall watching this one with her because she was obsessed with that click on bodyguard's arse and kept making me rewind scene so she could have a good look at it. Do you know, I have to say that I didn't notice it while watching but I will be keeping an eye out on it now. It's very perch. Although, as you did comment earlier, they do have ridiculous space, Dave, Tupac and Tomak. or something. Well, it's better than what was it, Carly and Kaz? So one of them was in-house of Quark, as far as I can tell. So the old guy is the guy who was advising her before and who married the 2 of them, I think. Oh, look, there's Andrew Robinson's director's credit. Oh, here is our handsome Klingon. Straight away, this house, house of quiet vibe, though, doesn't it? He's like, oh, he's in trouble with that. going to have to fight this Klingon. you know, we know this is where we're heading. Yeah, eventually. Yeah, this is one of 3 episodes. Yeah, look at this lift. Look at the lift. The lift comes up in the ops. with the jerkiest possible way, like some stage... And you know, right? This is our big special effects shot of the episode is the lift comes into off because we're just not doing anything else. They've got going in our station. That's your special effects budget, all right? So crappy. Just so low effort. I love to spend a minute wear robe. Where she goes, just a wharf. It sounds like you've got a terrible case of, oh, muck. And then Cisco comes out and goes, oh, is it catching? Like, I just like, they've actually got some decent workplace banter. You know, what about what about this? I think this is really good. Because it's the sort of bullshit exposition scene. And there's a little bit of, as you know, Bob, where Dax explains Klingon houses to Walt in this. But if you haven't seen the previous episode, this is enough for us to get the relationship and here's Avery being relaxed as how and... And you know what? You can wish throwing that ball up. This is only seen. Yeah, it is, yeah. This is another thing, which is very unlike a lot of other Star Trek, is they'll very often put the captain sort of front and centre, whereas Avery Brooks. That was him back. I think that's him. He's looking fine. I know you've got something to say about this, Steve, between Bashir and O'Brien. No, yeah, yeah. So one of the things that I was a bit apprehensive about going into this episode, and I had seen it at the time, but it had been a long time, is that I think that 90 Star Trek does sex very badly. And, you know, the Delaney sisters in Voyager or whatever. Yeah, that sort of banter is really shit. I think that there's something just a bit depressingly adolescent about that scene. Like, this... Well, this scene feels like a favourite for Harry Kim and... I tell you what, the, the, it's a small station line, which is something that they say all the time because rumours get around and he just goes, it's a new station. You know what? They reveal in one episode, it's always ducks. She's always the one spreading all the gossip about everybody. Spreading the rumours. A hub of gossip and then she spreads it off everywhere else. And again, the O'Brien Kira subplot in this has been heavily criticised. Actually, watching it this time. I thought it was quite restrained and it was really well active as well. It's not really appearing, I believe, but in the performances, I did, I believed it in the moment. especially that moment where we'll get to it later, but where they realise they've crossed the line. And I think... Oh, that funny line there too. But we've all been there at one point or another, you know. So this, I hate this, you know, like they're all adults. She Kira's pregnant. He's helping her out of the bathtub and Julian's going, oh, I bet you cop to look at her tits and stuff. And you kind of think, oh, come on, can we grow up? That's really just a bit pathetic. Oh, sorry, Nathan, I've had this conversation before. Like, probably, probably last week, if I'm on this. It's all right if it's a guy, though. No, I mean, it's I just think that that just is a little bit depressing. And Julian just comes across, like, it's, it's pervy. you know what I mean? She's vulnerable in a medical condition and it's kind of like, uh you know, like I bet you looked at him, like a... There's that scene and there's the scene with Odo later, where they're having to shoot Horn in the regulars, aren't they? And they're trying to give them funny things. too. Oh, this is brown. There he goes. I love the way Warp is doing... Wolf goes, I will apologise. I apologise. And then the look on Vaughan's face when he's being tossed across the room. Right. But you know, he orders another drink, but just with hand signals. I'm not the biggest fan. I've got to be honest. And I do I feel as if his best episodes of DS9 are his best episodes. he was given a handful of these episodes of TNG, but I don't think they did that much with him. However, I really liked how, Oh, pathetic they let me do in this episode. Like, a bit he's a bit castrated here, isn't he? But it makes me like it. You know, because he's always so... I like this scene. This scene here with Turmac or whatever his name is from the previous episode. So, yeah, to make space name. is actually pretty good. And again, it gives us important backstory for Wharf, because I've forgotten whether he was commended or discommended at this point in the show. I think you'll find there's a continuity area here, though. Because I say you, you've never pursued a Klingon woman before. Yeah, yeah. But what about, yeah, Kayla? Susie Blackford, yes. Well, he didn't really get the chance to pursue her, did he? He didn't quite... Alexander? They just, yeah, they just boned. It wasn't really a thing. She was half human, wasn't she, as well? And and they had sex and then he said, well, now we're married then and she said, no, thanks. And so it wasn't quite the same. But do you know what? That that attitude of his. Oh, that kind of... It's almost like Christian attitude, is it? Right, well, we've done it now. We've got to come here. We got to get married. That's why him and Dax worked so well together because she don't play by none of the rules. And so there's tons of conflict there isn't it? Yeah, and he he actually doesn't really want to do it either. You know, like he agrees with her that that's not where this is going to go, which I think is pretty good. Um, so I really, I think that this is where, obviously, where this tumac, Jesus Christ, I don't know what that guy's called. Um, this is the scene where the kind of Cyrano de Bergerac thing starts to kick off in this. I'm a bit in the dark about that. I've heard this illusion made. It's a fair note, but is it? Yeah, I... It's an incredibly ugly bloke with a long nose who can't get the girl. And what he teaches somebody how to romance. Yeah, how to woo her. Um, you know, from the, um, you know, from the sidelines and stuff. And it's a thing that's been done over and over again in sitcoms and stuff. I know, but it... and Quark. I mean, that's it. And they've already made the point of expressing antipathy. So, you know, Worf says that Cork's opinions don't matter in any way. And so here we get this sort of conversation where, I don't know why is he coming to Dax? He goes, oh, come on. Isn't there a secret handshake or something just to get me get me to the good stuff? Yeah, leap on each other like a pair of crazed volts. Is that just because she's had a lot of sex for, you know, in various lifetimes, being 100s of years old and so he comes to her? I think so yeah. Yeah, and she is the one who is the most kind of chill, kind of the most adult in her approach to sex, isn't she? She's like, she just enjoys it. Do you remember that one when they're true initiative? Oh, just turns up and he turns up at her quarters and then the man walks out, draped in a towel. It just goes unspoken and he just looks at him like, and then the scene just goes on. But also as well, like she doesn't blink an eye when she falls for Lenara Khan in rejoins, you know, she's on the rise of planet with Vanessa Williams. She's clearly getting her rocks off air. Like, she's just a good time girl and she... Yeah, yeah, yeah. But like just an absolute grown-up attitude to sex, like not a kind of, not the sniggering adolescent thing we got from Julian just now. What I love here with Quag is the fact that they did, given the depth of characterisation, for him to want to understand her because it is more than just sex, he's really interested in her you know? Yeah. Well, yeah. I mean, he's doing whatever he needs to do. Yeah maybe. Well, maybe. So, they do phone it, and then we never... And that's it. Yeah. So it really is boning. But this is really good because Worf, in spite of himself, starts to talk about what he would do and of what he's planning in his head. And despite what Turnak or Tumok or whatever his fucking name is said before, he turns out to be very good at it because it works really well. And in fact, Gurilla's response to this advice is far, far better than we have a right to expect. Okay, here's the B plot. And I think that this conversation is just like bafflingly terrible. Why? I thought... This was not... What I love is the fact that Keiko walks in, right? And she's just completely oblivious to what's occurring. And she's like, don't stop on my account when they're about to snob, you know? Yeah. Well, look, I mean, the thing is that for this episode and for there to be drama, there has to be this look at her in that top she looks fantastic. Holy crap. doesn't Keiko look spectacular. She's brought abreast with her to this scene. The moment I really like, okay, maybe you find that Sinanga. the 2nd where she says, oh, I could do your worse things than spending 2 weeks alone in Ireland with you. And the way he says me too. You know, we've had that moment. We've all had that moment where you're like, and you're looking at that person, oh, what's happening here? And I think, um, in the aftermath of this, Ron Moore actually says he thinks this plot is the one he's most proud of because this is kind of real, this is real. This is what kind of really happens in people's lives. You don't have people with VR sets, fighting with bat thefts to win the Klingon woman, you know? Oh, that bitch. Oh, look at that. Look at that. She's enjoying that massage. I know. So can we talk about the pregnancy bump? Go on. So they've allowed her to be pregnant in this sort of space way which I think is great and it does let the actor do new things and all of that's terrifically exciting. That pregnancy bump is now an adult, um, because this episode was broadcast in 19, uh, 96. And he is, he's her son with Alexander's city. Do you remember the scene in the 1st episode of this season where she goes to Bashir, well, this is all your fault and he goes, my fault? And she said, yeah. Oh, they deliberately put that in. They referenced it. Yeah. Because it was his fault. great. And he's beautiful because he has 2 beautiful parents, this young man. So you want to feel old. Just, um... Yeah, they do. Yeah. Django and her pod have a podcast where they talk. So just Google him. I'm sure that you've already done that. Oh my god. Of course, of course he's listening. The Klingon opera. in the dark, in the defier. Yeah, that's... Actually, actually, I quite like that. You know, Cork gets the best line here at the minute where he goes you know, his attitudes like that, the stuff you people getting invited to really good parties. Yeah, because you're big racist. I actually kind of like the thought that Wharf still remains a bit of an outsider. And so he has his own set to go in and, you know, moon about him and it's different from everyone else's. I like the fact... Well, I think they kind of had to do that because they didn't really want to dislodge Kira as the 1st officer. So like, okay, well, he's the 1st officer on the Defiant, you know the Starfleet part of the station. which kind of makes sense. I really like the chemistry between my daughter and Arm and Chim but they're both really good actors and they have raising this guy. What I really like is the fact that they kind of get on fairly well with this. But the tension between the 2 characters after it just remains right until the end of the series. They don't like each other and Quork is making terrible comments about war right up until what you be behind. It's funny, isn't it? Because obviously Odo and Quark are the natural pairing, and the reason that they are opposites is their attitude to rules. But it's the same with Warf and Quark as well, the reason that they dislike each other is... I mean, Warf don't realise... Remember that? No. Odo when he says, you know, make sure you don't invite anyone round and Odo's like, of course not, you know, that will only invite subsequent visits. you know? Yeah, yeah, miserable pair. This is a weird scene, a weird scene in this episode. Um, So yeah, so this is where, obviously, Werewolf agrees to kind of help further because he's been so spectacularly successful. But it makes sense, doesn't it? Because he wants to prove that he can woo a Klingon woman. That's that's his most opinion. It's not so poor he gets his rocks off. No. Did you see that? Beauty and the Beast sweep down there for that. A massive set with a big ceiling, and we'll never see it again. I mean this is... Oh god, this is so funny when he tries to talk Klingon. Can't get it right. This is what I sound like, trying to talk other languages, though. These scenes uh, uh, a bit shit. These fine scenes. No, no, when he goes... This is ridiculous. My shoes are dripping in blood. I'm surrounded by corpses and you want me to feel romantic? It's just how delivers these lines. It's great. Yeah, yeah. is pretty good. I do love his outfit too. Like, did KLS wear that outfit? I hope so, but it absolutely is the sort of thing... quite aware all of the moves. So he was he was doing all of this physical stuff. And he's quote, the same memory alpha. I was pretty nifty with a bat left by the end of this episode, I'm saying. I actually wondered because, you know, there are a lot of scenes of him shot from behind where it's just the big latex bumhead thing happening and that could basically be anyone. Uh, you know, Max could be in there with a ballet. does an extraordinary thing. We'll get there. where he's being puppeteered and how he acts that I think, it's so real. It's like, oh, he's judging about all over the place, you know? Although we'll get there because it kind of kicks in at a particular point in the scene where we need to be reminded of it and he doesn't bother doing it for the beginning of the scene. Is the problem too, that Quark is funny and Wharf is really boring. But then, I mean, the controls kind of works quite well then doesn't it? It makes a quirky funnier. I realised as well when I was watching this, they could have played this a different way. and I'm glad they didn't. They could have had that deliberately, you know, like tempting to convince warf to help walk because she, but actually none of it's played that way at all. She is there. Basically holding up a placard to warp saying, notice me, please I'm hot for you. We didn't, I don't think we noticed at the time, but there's a time where he is saying what he would say to Grill Car, and she's just looking at him like totally dreamily as if he's saying it to her, which I thought was kind of cute. But they were, do you know? Do you know why they why they pursued this? Because they didn't write for Michael Dorn and Terry Farrell, to be flirting with show in series four. But you go watch such things and they are they are hungry for each other in some of those states and they were like, we've got something here. Let's write this. Well, it's that 1st episode. Isn't it in Way of the Warrior? He goes to see her in her Klingon callisthenics program or something. Well, yeah, you don't have to do that to impress me. not trying to impress you. Yeah. So what's what's Renee doing? It's so weird. I mean, mild. Yeah, yeah. But he's playing it so strange. Is he jealous? What's going on here? She's jealous. What's the fuck? It's really... What part of the family are you? What part of the sister, cousin? You know, like it's it's really... I like to say this, but I work with a load of sarcastic gifts like this, you know, honestly. Yeah. It reminds me of his performance in Take Me Out to the Holosuite. And so I'm assuming that he just gets more like this as the show goes on where he just gets to chill and be Renee and be his sort of weird sitcom actor. Yeah, yeah. He can be a bit less of a space person. Do you remember him beyond that piano in his way when he's rocking out beyond that piano? He's having a great time. Yeah. Oh, you're right. It is, it is particularly bitchy, that scene. And compare that scene to the scene when Kira was coming on to him and for a dramatic Sone, I think. It's like chalking cheese, isn't it? Oh, yeah. I would have had a great time in the hollow sweet. Oh, there's his bum. Look I've spotted it. he's turned around. Oh, kind of mad. You can tell what religion he is. All Naparia nails. Or two. We can add that to the drink list. Yeah, yeah. Get some Tronia, you. Weeklings. Is she is she interested in him because he's making a lot of effort or is she already interested in it? Um, well, I think that she likes him and she knows his kind of a worthwhile person and he she is grateful to him and he just steps in and helps. You know, there's that that affection that's in the 1st scene when they just hug. I like it. But also as well, I really like the fact that there's lots of behind the scenes interviews after House of Quarter, but she had a last play in the role. She'd love working with Armand Shem, but there's that great story about him saying how agonising it is in the makeup, like if you need to talk to me, come find me. So they wanted to work together again. And I think you can kind of extends to the audience, you know? I think they go to more effort to make her look beautiful as well. Like, the makeup is a bit more feminine, not the forehead makeup but like, she's generally kind of less odd looking, less... I think she played a regular at Babylon 5, you know. Ah, okay. You're not sure what that's all about. Is it good? No. I'm a bit distracted by Topok or whatever his name is because he is absolutely selling this scene. And, yeah. So you there we go. This is exactly the same scenario that we were heading towards. Okay. But the solution is, but in, out of pocket was, you had to use his brains to get that out, think, sort of Klingon tradition or use it to his advantage to get out of that, whereas here, it's, it's a sci-fi concept. gone crazy. Yeah, I like this technology, but we never hear from again. We'll get there because I actually think that's a really good thing. And what stops this from being something that any show could do that had weird latex face people talking about the distant past and stuff. to being a Star Trek show. Well, we just had a scene, Modo saying, well, nothing's going on and there's all this thing piling up, I know Briar's not doing anything. And he's just walked into his quarters and said, well, I've got off early. There ain't much happening today.? Yeah, there he is goofing off. is absolutely good for you. Oh, I love this line in the minute where she delivers it perfectly. Are you 2 fighting again? She's talking to a parent. So she eventually decides to just go and bone Shakar, is that right? Who Kira? Yeah. Yeah, I think so. Yeah, she's still in that relationship now, isn't she? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. They write him out towards the end of the season because the act is no longer available, so they're just summarily riot. Oh, now okay. But in the same breath, they wanted to pursue the Odo court thing as well. Odo, Kira. Sorry. I don't Kira relationship to the Odo Quark relationship. I'd have been there for that. I do think Kao's a bit dense here, though. Like, you know, off you go. YouTube to this nice romantic place in Ireland, you know. No, but don't you think that she's the one being the grown up here? For sure, yeah. You know, they need to fall in love because it's the title of the episode and that's a thing or fall in kind of last, like they want to have sex. But it would also be nice if we were all a bit past that. And like, I don't think that's a space people thing. I think that's just a normal person in control of themselves thing if it had just been, you know, they have a close relationship. I know what this going on in life than you are. No, I'm sure you're right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, no, this is where he says it. Come on. Surely there's a Klingon handshake to get me out of this fight. And now suddenly warfs all across what happened in House of Quark. So there you go. He's now doling out the plot points. I was trying to think of this episode. I heard the core equivalent is in TNG today, but there really isn't, is there? There isn't. And I think that's why when this show came along, they were like what's this? This sort of disretable character as one of our regulars. Yeah. I mean, you know, like you've got a cop and a, and a sort of petty criminal and stuff, it's still, it's just not the sort of thing that you had because you didn't have crime in the federational or whatever and we hardly went outside it. Now, here's what I think is really good. So suddenly we now see him fighting a bit more enthusiastically with Jadzia. And then we now we see Wharf with the thing around his neck. And we're in a hola suite, aren't we? Is that the holy sweet set with a weird thing? And I like how no one really in this audience had VR, you know, the way that we do now. But without us having to explain what the fuck is going on. Instead, they just demonstrate it by having them act. And so we aren't forced to sit through an exposition scene about what the hell this is, because when we 1st see it in action, we see Worf and Quark doing the same moves in the same shot. The choreography is very nice and they match those moods beautifully. Yeah, I mean, I would have died of boredom, any scene where it was explained or demonstrated what this technology did, and they absolutely avoided. Ronald D. Moore said, I refuse to explain how this worked. I knew we were never going to see it again. I just wanted it for this episode. It served its birthday. lets move off. And it worked. I thought that was really good. And the hilarious thing is that, you know, like Wharf has these 2 and 10 A sort of sticking up beside his head and it makes it look like a stupid Star Trek bit of technology. But obviously the antenna is there to be cut off by a bat left during the climax. This is why she said... If I was in your shoes here, I'd be looking to someone a little more entertaining, a little more fun and a little more attainable. She's saying, Wharf, will you fuck me already? Oh, yeah, yeah. A little more spotted, a little more. David, would you take a look at her? It's beautiful. What is regular? Stunning. Absolutely stunning. I mean, even punching, right? Yeah, yeah, it's crazy, isn't it? What an idiot. Oh, look at us. Actually, you know what? I just remember, there's another thing I really, really love. and that is the Jed Seer Quark friendship and that runs from season 2 where they're super close all the way through to with Esry Dax in the last series. Everybody else on the show rejects Quark. And Jazia has this massive empathy and has so much you're seeing playing late night Tongo getting drunk with him. And even when she gets married to Warf, she still does all those things. And she's like, well, he's my friend and you're not telling me who I'm going to hang out with. That's obviously the reason why he comes to her for advice. So it works in context of this group of characters. That's one of the holy crap. Look at that, Klingon. That is one of the joys of this show is there are so many double acts and interpersonal action. And then when you throw in all of the secondary characters as well Garak, you know, with Bashir, you cut with Kira, win with Cisco it's very rich when it comes to the characters. There's this bum again. Yeah, Michael Dawn's got quite a nice arse as well, you know. No, no, but look at this guy. Like, they've not made Phil Morris put on a stupid beard, so you can see his chin, and it's a chin. He's a really handsome guy. I sent you that picture last night. You know another episode? Even now. But Morris was in. Um, he was the head, Jem Hadar, in the 2nd episode of series 6 rocks and shoals, and he gives a phenomenal performance in that. He the one where he just, you know, they decide to commit suicide because they know Cisco and that have got the advantage and they've got to go across the bat before they go get shot. He's fantastic in that. They're very different from this. Yeah, but he's so good in this and he really is handsome and I've seen 2 bum shots. No, here we go, there we go. So the little antenna gets chopped off by the batler. so great. I came the right of proclamation. I'm making some shit up, which is clearly what's happening. That's what Paul would do, right? If you could, if anyone was going to think on their feet, it would be cork. Also, like this touches on the theme of the previous episode where Cork decides not to try and beat bad guy, the other guy at whose name I've forgotten, at his own game, but decides to use, you know Ferengi methods, like shows Gower on a spreadsheet on his iPhone you know, like... So great. So fun. And so this works here. It's a little bit less funny than that, but it's basically the idea. And I love how when the thing gets meant if he goes, oh, all right I'm done with that speech, let's kind of wail on one another again. The funny the funny bear here. I think the funniest moment is a bit of physical comedy is when the VR helmet thing goes off and she's so strong that they fall to the floor. Oh, they fall to the floor. And that's when they end up snogging. very funny. Oh, oh, and he has to just make up shit to accompany whatever the hell Wharf is doing with the, uh, with the thing. It pretty great. PS9 is known as the serious Star Trek, you know, but we've watched House of Quark, take me out as an hour this week, and this. And in the cars. Yeah, I don't, no Star Trek is serious. It's one of the things that I think, you know, that Strange New Worlds gets right. It does silly things. It's been established that stupid things are part of the Star Trek canon and you can help yourself to them and you should. You're not making Battlestar Galactica. It's Star Trek and it's supposed to be fun and silly. Every alpha episode of Voyager. bloody ridiculous. You know, they bought it. Yeah, yeah. Any other. Yeah, well, oh, look at that man. I don't know. I think Wolf is pretty hot with about left as well, you know. Yeah, yeah, but he's no Phil Morris. Whoa, down he goes. So, I guess the only thing that doesn't quite work. Is that what's supposed to happen? Yeah, I guess so. Yeah, yeah, because he was talking about dying before. What does it quite work? Did you say that? That window? Well, it's the same set from before with the high ceiling. But, Yeah, that's why they spent the special effects budget on this week. Um, the, um, you can't tell how Worf can see what Quark is seeing. Um, and I think I don't know whether you think of that at the time and there'd be no intrusive way of doing it, but he's looking as if he can see it, and maybe he needs a VR helmet or something. I think somebody was paying attention. Because then you get, at the end of the season, you get those fabulous water view screens. Do you remember? That goes over the head just like that. Oh, yeah. You actually get to see through the eye bit so you can see like the view screw. What you can see. Yeah, yeah. I like it when they when they innovate technology, you know, or just make something. Well, but, you know, like, it makes real and physical what's been going on, which is not quite a puppet, but wharf's been feeding him lines and strategies and stuff like that. And then eventually we get him in the next room doing the thing. Oh, here we go. I don't want to see that. I'm glad they cut away. Although, I do feel they can't weigh at just the right point. Whoa. She's on top. She is definitely the aggressor. Real cat, isn't she? Yeah, Wolfline. What the hell does she see in that parasite? that parasite that's rude? kind of racist? Don't you please don't criticise this soon. I love it so much. Yeah, it's he's such a moron, wasn't he? I don't know why she bothers, but you know what? Yeah, yeah, well, he's tall. Oh, I just love it. The bit I love is where she's flawed it. Yeah. And how she scrabbles on top of him, like desperately. I'm like, she ain't has some problem. She has not had some for a while, I'm telling you. No, not since last week. in Meridian. What? Oh, okay. But you know what? It's like, he's like, he just goes straight away. Yeah let's do this. All right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What was he thinking? Hey, down he goes. She straight on top. Oh, that was not Michael Dong. That wasn't Michael doing that stunt. and it's Michael on the floor. in the in the runabout now, desperately trying to keep their hands on each other. See, I prefer I preferred the scene where he was massaging her and just the one line crosses here where it's kind of like the, you know, restrained. Miles, get out. Oh, you know, we're going to fucking runabout. I love that. Actually, that's the one thing where he's still kind of talking. Now, now, um, Columini is only a couple of years older than you at this point. Wow. I mean, look at me, honestly. Yeah, I know. That is a... There's the same amount of, yeah, is he out? He's 40, yeah, about 3 or something. Honestly, he's a Guinness drinker about Ross or love. Yeah, no, ages, yeah. But this is the point, I suppose, this is the point where they decide to behave as adults. Don't know, and say, yeah, it would have been nice, but let's not do this. You've got a great marriage. I'm seeing that guy who turns up every now and again from Bajor. Yeah. Is, hey, is that, um, is Shaka the Space Ghost, that Beverly Bones? Yes, yes, the same actor. Yeah, yeah. I can't help but notice, you know, the runabout seems to be about 15 times the size it was in dramatis personae. Yeah, so there's bigger roundabouts. This is the new B round about set with the extra control panels in the background for them to stand behind for some reason. Are you saying roundabout on purpose? Roundabout. Yeah. What is that run about? Run about. Do you know what the funniest story ever was Ira Bell. It was like, right, we're going to war. The F9's going to war. We need a battleship. He goes, how bloody ridiculous will we be if we're sending those runabouts? Oh, they're so rubbish, aren't they? Well, I mean, they were clearly kind of we need to go to different planets because what else do you do on Star Trek, how are we going to manage that? And they have that shitty, tiny runabout set that we saw in dramatis persona. Okay. Now, this... I love the scene. No, I like this scene. It's the scene between, it's the scene between Miles and him. I told you in a couple of episodes ago. There's a scene in DS9 where everyone's been shagging and they've hurt each other. They all come to the infirmary and Bashir's like, oh, I'm going to stop asking this question. Try not to think about it. Sounds a bit racist the 1st time, but then Dax comes in and he's going, I'm trying not to think about it. It's kind of like, uh, I like that because even that has a carrot touch because obviously Bashir point off the ducks for a long time didn't he? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, for sure. I really, like, I really properly like this. The scene with Quark, because we had Quark in an episode the other day where he was wearing the comedy neck brace, that was dramatis persona, and that was a shitty scene. And here he comes in and he's just been boning with Grillka and she's there and like that's really fun. These 2 have injured themselves. The way she says it. She goes, he was the aggressor. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And and this is well because she's actually said this to him before in the scene, hasn't she? You are not a traditional Klingon. And he's not in the way that he was when he had the relationship with Kayla when he slept with Kayla in the series 3 of Star Trek The Next Generation. and then said we have to get married. She's straight in his hair. lovely. Oh, come on. We just started playing with it. What's very strange? Their relationship isn't acknowledged again until that he is about seeing, which is just a bit moving terrible. Awful. Yeah. Dreadful. Yeah. should roll that. Oh, no, please, that's not. We don't we don't want terrible DSign episode recently. I do like this as well. This is a very kind of adult conclusion short. Let's just see what happens. Like, this has happened. Let's see what happens. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, but we're we're about to get our comedy laughter editing from... Yeah, so this is the final scene and this is the final line. This episode is full of great loin. Why did we end up being funny? That line isn't even funny. Like, there's no joke. Oh, so at least you've stopped thinking about grill car. It's just like, well, fuck, do a joke. Like, if you're going to go out on a laugh. Don't. Don't do that. Two, make it a funny line if you decide to do it, but it's not even funny. Even worse. You know, it take me out to Holl Street as well. just can't do these comedy lines at the end because that wasn't funny either. No, and that, yeah, I didn't like that final scene. It was the one little kind of blemish on that superb episode. Going back to what you said just there about, uh, her wanting out that wharf isn't a traditional Klingon. Yeah. Like, this is what happened on the last night, was it? All the wastes and strays from every single planet in the outfit. They end up here. You've got Quork who's got a bit of a heart. Cisco, who's a family man, Garak, who's an exile, you know, Odo who's one of 100, like, I like that about DS9. You got all these sort of exceptions to the rule. And then that comes with massive like culture patch, doesn't it? Ron Moore is the person to try and do some kind of arc on TNG with Worf's character by riding the Wharf Klingon episode every year. And so he does make him interesting and you were talking about family earlier, but you remember there's the little subplot with the Rashenko's coming on board the ship to be at Wharf, which is really sweet, isn't it? And just reminds us that, you know, he is in this sort of weird space between being a Klingon and being human, which is, you know the sort of dilemma that has existed in Star Trek in spot. And I think it's kind of nice because he's so into being a Klingon and that explains it because it's something he's had to achieve and acquire later. I think, I think where DSMI bates wharf sing. And it takes them a little while. There's kind of like an adjustment period series 4 is they give him 2 characters and they didn't do this in TNG. They give him Dax. They give him a marriage, a relationship. And then they give him Martoc. And so they give him like a friend, someone from his own pit. And that, those things are just fantastic. So, yeah, I think I think eventually Worf gets his best material on the show and it's kind of here where we're dipping in the right direction. Yeah, it's funny, isn't it? The thing that Deep Space 9 can do that Star Trek, the Next Generation just can't, is give every regular some kind of relationship. Um, maybe Julian. I mean, Julian's parents are in it a couple of times, I know more than a couple of times. Um, I guess he's got Garak, doesn't he? And a relationship with Miles. And, you know, Quark comes, you know, pre-populated with his brother and his son, um, his brother and his son, you know, and that's really fun and it's something that no other Star Trek is quite done and it, I think it really works incredibly well. Something else that really has been highlighted doing a series one DSI episode, followed by a series 5 DS9 episode is that in series one, they just didn't do hangout episodes. There always had to be high concept of the week. Whereas we've got to this stage of this night where the cast of characters are so strong, that you can just hang out with them on the station for an episode and have a fucking blast. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I wanted to compare it kind of to the most recent Strange New Worlds episode at the time of recording, and again, it'll be a couple of weeks out of date, this observation, but the most recent episode that I've seen is called Spock, a Mark, and that's there 3rd the 3rd creation of that time. I'll check you with that tiles. And it is a hangout episode as well. There is a negotiation with an alien race about joining the Federation, but basically they're at Starbase one, you know, around Earth, and they're doing Shore Leave and going down to the forests on the base and chilling and having drinks and chatting people up and stuff. And it is a hangout episode and everyone has a plot. And it's really fun. And I think that it may actually consciously reference this episode because it ends with looking for love in all the wrong places on the soundtrack over a kind of montage at the end of the episode. Oh, wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's really strong. It's really funny And it manages to be a hangout episode as episode, what, five? You know, we barely know the characters. But again, I think it's done a great job of drawing its characters well and outlining some of the relationships. Wow, so well drawn. Even a pilot, you know, those characters were so beautifully drawn. You wanted to go off and add more advanced for them. DSI. It took me a little while, you know, I fell in love with them. But the thing is, the thing is that, like, I thought that that was really fun and really enjoyable, but there is a sense in which it's not Star Trek enough. Not because it doesn't have space battles. or space problems, but just that we don't see anything very interesting in it. It is all of us. There was that set, I guess, the set with a high ceiling. Oh, you mean interesting? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like it is just people in standing sets kind of talking. And that's fun and that's, you know, cheap. And that means that we have to do something pretty interesting with the dialogue or why is anyone watching it? And so I think it works. It was enjoyable. But I do miss the spectacular a bit sometimes in 90s track. Yeah, I get what you're saying, and I think that's probably the biggest difference between you and I when it comes to Star Trek is I can just watch a cheapie and have an absolute blast with the characters. And I don't know if it was about basic anything because I'm having a good time. So that's a lot I need, you know. I mean, I thought that was really fun. I think maybe House of Quark was a little bit more fun. Does House of Quark have that shitty Miles and Keiko subplot? Is that in House of Quiet? Jesus Christ. They've both got one. They've both got a terrible... Stop lot. It's so funny. It really is just a straight remake and something that worked really well. And like, I think this works really well. And it obviously does some needed character arc stuff with Wark and Dax, which finally actually sort of happens. And like the House of Quark, it's positioned, and I think DSI does this with its comedy episodes. It's positioned really well. 3 episodes into the season. We've done the biggie, we've done something serious. Let's have some fun Yeah, I like to have some fun. Yeah, yeah. And I certainly think it, it definitely succeeds at that. All right, it's time to choose our next episode. So I'm at Untitled Star Trek project.com slash randomiser, and it's my turn. And I'm supposed to come up with an interesting rationale for why we're choosing the thing and which series we're selecting from. Old and original. can't think of one. Oh, okay. Disappointing. All of them. Let's just do all... Yeah. I've got no idea. No idea. All right. So it could be anything. Let's see how we go and I'm pressing the button. Oh, what's that? I've no idea. Tell me. I'll tell you. Well, I don't know. Okay. So your random Star Trek, the original series episode is Requiem for Methuselah, season three, episode 19. Charles, that's going to be shit. Season three. Well, but it doesn't have to be because we have, I mean, we did just do a regular series, though. I think we're going to choose something else, to be honest. It's some immortal guy, blah, blah, blah. So I've got no idea. I'm seeing a robot that looks a little bit like nomads when I'm doing a Google. Oh... Well, no. All right, roll again. Okay, Star Trek Discovery. Now the difficulty here is, of course, that there's no way of knowing what it is. Uh, I think that we won't do this one because it's series 3 episode 12, and we've already done the end of series 3 with that... It's episode 12, so it's got to be the anti-penultimate episode, I think. Oh, okay. So that's kind of part one of the 3 parter. I could be wrong. But it is episode 12. We did get quite close to the end of that, so I think we won't do that one. Let's try something else. Ooh, this might be the one. I think this is a very good Voyager episode. And undoubtedly, after we watch it again, I'm going to think it's a bit short. So let's spoil my fun. It's one of, you don't always forget... So this is Star Trek Voyager season five, episode 10 counterpoint. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, yeah. If Kate Mulgrew's favourite episode of Voyager. I'm not surprised. It's got a great guest actor. And so it's her acting against a great guest actor, which is always an interesting kind of thing for Star Trek to do. Do you remember the opening when they're pumping classical music? And then these Nazis are storming through Voyager. Oh man, it's terrific. Oh, let's do that. it's pretty good. Yeah, let's do it. Absolutely. That's going to be really fun. A really proper solidly good Voyager episode. I don't think we've ever done. No, I would say no. Well, Ken and gave me beef you really like that, but no, I think... I'd go as far to say this as a voyage classic. Yep. All right, cool. We'll do it. See you then. You've been listening to untitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford and Nathan Bottomley. We're online at Untitled Star Trek project.com, where you can find links to our Twitter, Facebook, and YouTube channel. Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceran, and the theme was composed by Cameron Lamb. This episode was recorded on the 7th of June 2022 and released on the 17th of June. We'll see you next time for Star Trek Voyager Counterpoint. You know, there is an exterior establishing shot at the station. What? That's really all we get. That's all we get. Nothing. And someone paid for those LEDs on Wharf's neck thing. I think, oh, man, I should have made that point as well. I see, I sometimes think you can go the other way. that there's too much spectacle and there isn't enough character. You know, and I certainly felt that with some early discovery. Um, you know, there was just too much plot and spectacle and not enough interesting people. I'm standing around cheaply in the room. Shut up. Yeah that's right. But fuck. That, that's Strange 2 Worlds episode. There's just a scene with like Bob April, Chris Pike and these 2 aliens of the week in a conference room, you know, like it's a scene that would just happen. like, you know, in the most boring room on like they'd put it in the observation lounge or whatever the hell. But here they're having it on the station. And so you just see them in a conference room, it's dark and the background is just like a massive window looking out onto one of those forested domes. Oh, Starbase one. And so it's a perfectly standard Star Trek scene, but it just looks amazing. I couldn't do that. Yeah, could they? No, they just couldn't do it. They couldn't afford it. That's the thing. And that's why we get these cheap things. It's not that, you know, there's the meretricious spectacle of beautiful, interesting space shots, but real proper TV just involves people standing talking in rooms. Because that is a scene. I'm telling you now, there must be some 90s trailer we're going to watch where you'll be like, wow, this is visually very interesting. Yeah, it's funny, isn't it? And I would, before doing this podcast, I would never have said this whole year of Star Trek was boring. Oh, cheap. It felt so expensive. I loved it. I did. It felt amazingly expensive at the time. Wow, you can take her old TOS with all its interesting incidental music and, you know, even those studios innovations in season one of the next year, we were like, whoa. A planet of armour. Oh my God. Okay. Now, it's my turn, isn't it? And I haven't even thought about what we're doing. No, I better relinquish the bedroom because it's quarter past pertaining. We don't want to go to bed. Yeah, God, I better get out of here. I'm going to be at school in an hour. I knew that was gonna be... I knew it. I forgot about it. did laugh a lot there. Yeah, yeah it is fun. I think that was really good. Oh, imagine when we get like, oh, have a share or something like that. Oh, come on. Got butter bean, butter bang. All right, we. All right, it's time to choose our next episode.