Up The Long Ladder

Hey, Joe. Top of the morning to you. Oh, my God. Um... I don't often go off piece. So, as you are no doubt able to tell listener at home, we are about to do Star Trek The Next Generation season two, episode 18 up the long ladder, which was 1st broadcast on the 22nd of May 1989, directed by Rick Colby and written by Melinda M. Snodgrass. And before we talk about what we felt about this episode, I want to say that she was the story editor for series 2 from the Measure of a Man onwards, and then later on up until Menager Troy, in series 3, she was executive script consultant, she wrote the Measure of a Man. She wrote the teleplay for pen pals. She wrote The Ensigns of Command, and she wrote The High Ground. So none of them are hugely great, with the exception, I think, of the measure of a man, which is absolutely superb. But she is a competent scriptwriter, and I have to say that this is the sort of script that you might have come out within the 1st couple of seasons of Star Trek, the Next Generation, before it finds its feet, while it's still trying to do Star Trek things. It's a very Star Trek premise. But, of course, the thing that really is the only thing that anyone can remember is the horrific Irish stereotypes. Oh, mean, you can certainly remember it. Yeah. Yeah. It's really funny So the, um, so I think we said this at the end of last week's episode, that Cole Meaney reacted so badly to the Irish stereotypes that when they tried to do it to him again in series one of Deep Space Nine. He said, the leprechaun goes, or I do, I think. trying to pull off this shit. All right. I'm just here. Yeah, yeah, okay. And that's why we have Rumpel Stiltskin in if wishes were horses rather than a leprechaun. Oh, favourite molly line of all. Absolutely, absolutely. So they're terrible and they're not terrible actors, though, I have to say. And one of the things that we discovered is those of you who are Star Trek fans, but not Doctor Who fans, won't really get the significance of this, but there was a story in Doctor Who in 1966 called The Mythmakers set, you know, at the end of the Trojan War and the guy who plays Danilo Odell, Barry Ingham played Paris in the Mythmakers, and he's really funny in that. He's one of the highlights of the myth makers. Sadly, the myth makers no longer exists. All we have is the soundtrack. We don't have any of the visuals at all. He's also in the Doctor Who and the Daleks movie, as Alanor. Wonderful eye makeup in that. I mean, basic makeup. icon. Yeah. He's also the great mouse detective as well. So he did have a career. All of that, Nathan, piles into significance compared to Danilo of Up the Long Ladder and his cross-eyed comedy as he drinks down malt whiskey. Yeah, it's pretty terrible. And it just kind of fearfully embarrassing. And Melinda Snodgrass, the rider lays it at the feet of Morris Early, who is himself Irish, when she was trying to explain the premise of the story, like what it was trying to say, a really properly good premise, that isn't completely erased, I think, by the presence of the Irish stereotypes. I think it is still there. But she says, oh, I want you to imagine them as a kind of village of Irish tinkers. And Hurley just goes, oh, no, make them that. Do you know what I mean? Make them Irish. And so it's his idea to have these sort of Irish stereotypes and they're really, really lamentably bad, aren't they? I mean, maybe this is his own personal experience of the Irish, you know, if he's commenting. added this characterisation. I mean, the 2nd the idea of immigrants coming along and then adding some colour and energy and personality to a very boring planet. That's a great idea. That's a and a really positive premise. But the 2nd we hit the planet, which doesn't happen until about halfway through the episode is so odd. It's like one story ends, and then another story begins, and then at the end the 2 stories come together. It's really, they're both so half baked because they're both half an episode. It's really strange. Anyway, the planet is so boring. and colourless and gray and they're so outrageously full of personality. You just know, like, it's just the premise is there, but it's so obvious. I was like, Leo going, come on, everyone else catch up. Where are we going to find this new DNA and personality for our planet? Oh, there they are in the cargo bay chasing a pig. You know, it's just so laboured. And this is precisely them, you know, finding their feed, but it is at least trying to do something like trying to say something. Yeah, unlike man hum, which said nothing at all. Old women are sexually voracious, something like that. Yeah. I mean, we said that manhunt's main purpose was just still... Well, essentially, to keep things happening until the closing credits rolled, to kind of fill in time. I don't know if it achieve that, really, did it? Yeah. But this is structured very weirdly, like you said. And there's a sort of C plot, which is the odd plot between Wharf and Pulaski, which is sort of a gramble. Like, it's not terrible. She goes, yeah, come on, now, read me some of that sex poetry wharf. It's very strange. We're doing a romance between Wolf and Blaski. Yeah, yeah, that goes nowhere. It does look like it's it's... I would have been there for it, Nathan. All right? Yeah, yeah. I think she's terrific. I think she is really great We didn't really talk about her last time, and this is only the 2nd episode of hers that we've ever talked about. She's really an in Manhunt. Do you remember? She didn't feature. She wasn't in a single scene in Manhub. So it's no time... So this is our 1st time. And so I suppose it's appropriate that we have this conversation. Now, I think Diana Moldi is a better actress than Gates McFadden. Now I don't think she's as agreeable and and she certainly hasn't got the same sort of chemistry that Gates has with the rest of the actors and that does count for something. But she is a better actress. And, and, oh, she's really wooden. I think she's quite charming within that prickly demeanour that she plays. I think that she loses points with people for being mean to data in an early episode and never recovers from that. She's kind of mean to everyone in those early episodes. But again, we need a bit of that on the ship. She's super charming here. I just think she's magnificent and she's got a beautiful smile. She's just tremendous. It's nice to have someone sort of slightly older as a regular as well. I think she's really good. as well. Did you notice when she goes down to the planet and she's admirer in that bit of art? But she's sort of secretly scanning the people at the same time you know? Yeah, just great. And that plot. I mean, that weird C plot, which ends really early, and it just seems to be there to give colour or give character moments. But so you've got these 3 plots that are all kind of happening at these odd rates and that don't seem to have anything to do with one another. And then 2 of them come together at the end and the other one just kind of finishes. And like they give the end of the teaser to the wharf Pulaski plot even though it's the least important one. They just haven't worked out how to structure an episode of Star Trek. And I think the effect of that is that in series 2, you get a kind of feel for life on the ship because the events that happen don't really have anything in common apart from they're all happening on board the Enterprise at the same time. And so you get a sense of what life is like on board the Enterprise. And I remember that at the time, and I don't think it's done very well, and it turns out that it's not particularly interesting anyway, but it is something that the show kind of abandons, and that in future, all of the scenes in an episode will be working towards the same end, and that's better, I think. Yes, I agree. I did wonder that the war staff at the start. When I read about this whole, you know, how immigrants can bring some colour to your life. I wondered if that was leaning into that as well, that that tea ceremony and that maybe that was originally there and threaded through and then just got lost in translation with the Hurley rewrite. I wondered if that was what they were going for there. Otherwise, it is just there for a bit of colour, which is very strong, or maybe they're 10 minutes short with the 2 plots that they have, so they need to add another one just to fill the space. Who knows? It's a weird mix, but I will say this as well. I did think there were some charming character moments not in the clone plot. That is the most generic type of science fiction that bores me senseless, but within the mad Irish stereotypes. I really like, what's the woman's name? So Brenna is the character? And I did like her interaction with Riker, even though, I mean, I don't really want to think about all that foot washing that they keep going on about, but, you know, all of the, you know, don't you like girls, commando? We're just that horny Star Trek that we identified before that goes away, kind of. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But that kind of goes away under Berman, I think. You know, horny Star Trek is a very rod and briefing, but he's still around and, you know, has a lot to do with how the show is turning out. And so that's definitely there. And the bit at the end, of course, where all of the women are going to have 3 husbands for kind of genetic reasons and we're all excited about that at the end as well. And so that's the sort of thing where, you know, in the future there won't be gay people, but we will have sort of different and more open sexual morality is definitely a thing. And that's kind of fun. I mean, you know why not? I'm pleased they take away the sleeves because we've had some icky moments when we've done one and two. But then it becomes very sort of generic TV romances after that and they're just very boring to watch. I mean, there was one wonderful moment where Brenner reminded me so much of my mother at a family gathering where she came in shouted at her dad and then said to whoever it was, no one got anything to do, I can give you a job to do. If you haven't got anything to do. I was like, bloody hell. I do like a strong woman in Star Trek, you know? Yeah, she's awesome. beautiful as well. That could have been a really embarrassing performance, but I think she holds her own actually. Barry on the other hand. Oh, Barry, we will get there. All right. It's pretty terrible. But it is like there's fun to be had and he's pitching it at a certain level and you have to say that that level isn't inappropriate for Star Trek, at least as it's understood in 1989. So you can kind of see what's going on here, I think, you know. Now you've seen Bo before we press play. Which do you think was more offensive then, the sort of the immigrant Irish people or planet of the Scots? Which do you think was the sort of the more humiliating? Well, I think that what's weird is we're doing Planet of the Scottish people in our last season. Yes, we should. We should know better by that. Yeah, but I think we have established at this point there's Planet of the Irish people, so why can't there be Planet of the Scottish people and it leans into stereotypes a little bit less. I mean, it's a kind of Gothic romance set in the, you know, hills of Scotland or something. You can kind of see why they're doing it. Studios of Scotland, yeah. Yeah, it is kind of terrible. I mean, I mean, at times. What is it? Don't light that candle, Beverly Crusher. No good old cover bit. It is, that's right. Yeah. This, I think, part of the problem with this, I think, and in perhaps in Snodgrass's original treatment as well, before they did definitely become Irish, is the kind of idea where you've got the planet of the very boring, staid white people who never have sex with one another and are certain, and they're not all white in this. one of the 5 original clone people is a black man. We'll talk more about that later But, you know, they're supposed to be sort of white Anglo people, and then we get immigrants, and the immigrants are all kind of, you know, 100s of years behind us and they have straw and pigs, and all the men are drunk, and all the women are bossy and stuff. And like, you know, there's colour and stuff. It does bring colour and stuff, but it also actually brings some pretty terrible stereotypes. Even if they weren't Irish, if they're the immigrants. Do you know what I mean? And she does want to say, look, these people you might find initially annoying are actually kind of vital for the health of your society. But she leans a little bit too much into how annoying they are in a way that I think undermines it a bit. There's a great quote from Rick Colby who says that he didn't have to bother with subtlety because the whole point of the contrast between the Irish and the, he's talking about the enterprise crew you know, is that, you know, they're really serious and they're outrageous and let's just really show that contrast. There is a deleted. There's a lot of deleted scenes in this, actually, that are on the DVD. goodness. But there is one, which I think should have made it into the episode, and it is one of those tedious backstories that you and I relentlessly mock on this podcast, but it is from Barry England's character explaining about the backstory of the Irish to the boring clones on the planet and shows him being charming and intelligent and trying to hold out a hand to them. I'm like, okay, yeah, this is sort of needed in the episode for this to happen. Otherwise, it just sort of ends because I was assuming it all works out okay because we never go back again. Thank God. Thank goodness. I think there are follow-up stories in other media, apparently. Yeah. Not in lower decks, though, I don't think. Shame. Oh, do they never go back to the island? Planets. Did I go back to the Scottish planet? They got the candle, though, haven't they? Yeah, we do that. Do we do it for care? So what do you think? I think we should definitely go in. Okay. I mean, I think people probably feared that we were going to come and rip this. I like, we are going to have some agreeable things to say, but I mean, overall, it is, it is still a bit of a dog. An interesting dog, but a dog. I think it's a functional episode of Star Trek and I'm prepared to grade it on the curve because it is such early days, but it is worth remembering that this season also does contain pleasure of a man. But it does also contain manhunt as the next episode. you know? Yeah, yeah, that's pretty terrible, isn't it? All right. Let's just enjoy Pulaski. I think we can definitely do that All right. I will count us in. Five, four, three, two, one, and we're off. So no opening thing, because we don't know what's happening yet. We're not on our mission. We actually find out why we here a little bit later. I don't know why we're here at the moment. We're looking at stars or something. But there's no actual mission until some way through the thing. And so this is not looking at all well, is he? Well, again, Michael never ends up doing this sort of growly behaviour later. Do you know what I mean? Like, it's a very early TNG sort of thing. Bless him. a strange sort of question. Did you imagine those leather seats creaked? Did I have to leisurely dub all the lines all the time? Sure they didn't. So the captain's log entry and close-up just is revealed to be just a series of numbers rather than the text of anything he's recently said. Yeah, that's sort of shorthand of the future, you know? ASKI. When the binars were there, they gave them a quick lesson in shorthand. So a distress beacon. Okay, so that's, there's our in. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's a it's not a distress beacon that we hear being picked up. Picard has heard about it from the Starbase that they're at or something like that. So we don't see them picking it up, which is odd. Do you know what I mean? Like, normally you would expect them to hear the distressed beacon and then go and find out what it is. You know what else is old? Commander Riker knows the sound of every distress beaker and he goes, well, I know them all, but I don't recognise that one. Well, I don't know that he does. I mean, it just sounds like a distressed baking because it's a repeated pattern or something like that. It would have been better if it had been an SOS, wouldn't it? But they're trying to shy away from contemporary staff, I think. So we wouldn't get that. Look how thin his beard is there? You know, like, do you know later on when he's got a full face of hair? No, that's just his face is fatter. Is that why I had a full face? The 10 o'clock shadow, how is how is the lot of sins? Oh, God, all of this old earth calendar, 2190. I just hate all of this early die. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we don't ever land at that. Do you know what I mean? Like the old earth calendar. don't land on that anyway. Do you know what I mean? So, and again, this is all weird and uninteresting ways of introducing this plot. Why is this happening? And I do think that it is because early Star Trek, the Next Generation does want to tell us what life on the ship is like. And so rather than it just being an adventure thing, we do get, you know, messages from Starfleet and references to, you know, the Starbase researchers and all of this sort of thing and information being exchanged and stuff. I quite like how they come in here and everyone's concerned because wharf's on the floor. I think that's pretty great. Oh, a wharf. I mean, you think this would be the plot right now. Yeah, yeah, because this is ancient and he's in terrible danger. Yeah. That's the end of the cold open. I've got to say, you'll think about life on the ship. I mean, when I was a kid, yeah, there was nothing more exciting than just hanging out on the Enterprise in 1987 or whenever it was. So I didn't really care if it was a boring exposition scene to get us in because I was in the ready room with Captain Picard and Commander Riker. you know? It's only now I've watched a lot of TV that I go, God, this is tedious, you know? But I reckon, I reckon Deep Space 9, because it has a unique setting does actually have as one of its remits, you know, giving you an enterprise what the life on the space mall is like. Do you know what I mean? Like, we do get a sense of that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I wanted to go and explore all those sooks, you know, and places to shop on the promenades. I mean, they had a basically the same sort of thing every week on DS9, wasn't it? Oh, something's coming through the wormhole, right? There's our story started, whatever that is. Yeah, yeah. I would have, I mean, I probably would have had the, um, into the credits, be the Irish people beaming into the, and just so everyone goes, what the hell is this? you know? I mean, that's that's the most surprising moment, but Will Wheaton just got his credit in the opening credits and he's not in this episode at all. Yeah, but it takes us so long to get there. Do you know what I mean? Like, part of the thing is that the pacing of this is all so weird and because it doesn't focus properly on the story, it's telling. And I think that's deliberate. Do you know what I mean? Melinda Snodgrass can pace an episode. She knows what she's doing. I don't know. is just very odd. So we're like, okay, a mysterious signal and wharf is sick in Sick Bay, how are these 2 things linked? Oh, they're not at all. Not at all. Yeah, that's right. But you would expect that, right? That's exactly what you would expect. You see that panel on the wall there with the triangles going back and forth. Yeah. That sort of Pulaski's version of, you know, McCoy's things where you kick the wall. Yeah? That's I don't think that you always say, in shades of grey, man you say that so much because Riker's just unconscious in Sick Bay and you just watch the triangles going back and forth. That's basically the whole episode. But I mean, that is very, that's based on the reading the things on the biobads in original Star Trek. with those triangles. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Okey, dokey. Oh, I love this bit in a minute, where Picard comes over the, the intercom and she goes, she lies for him. Which is really nice. But she's she's super charming in this. She's really very likeable. She's not gruff at all. Well, we're in the 2nd half of the smiling, so she's sort of broken in now and she's had about five, they do like 5 establishing Pulaski episodes. I don't know why they felt like she needed so much, you know, just put her in there and let her be great. But by this point, I mean, I think there is chemistry there with the other actors, but they say that they didn't get on. right okay. Maybe they're just sparing Gates's blushes. I don't know Yeah, maybe, maybe. I mean, she is great. Look at this. Like, she likes wharf and finds him vaguely amusing. And maybe you're right. Maybe this is us seeing what assimilation looks like once it's happened. You know, the Klingons were our enemies. We fought a war against them. And now look how we benefit from having wharf on board. And it turns out he's not what at all what we expected, that the Klingons are intensely romantic and right love poetry and stuff like that. And I think that's to me. Fingers and goes... Please, Captain Picard. I hope you believe this terrible life. telling you. It's really good interaction. Pulaski's interaction with Picard is super interesting as well because unlike Gates. They have that romantic history and it's quite a gentle relationship. It's so fractuous and she's always bossing him about and telling him what to do and Picard is frequently frustrating with Pulaski. It's great. Yeah, I always feel like you need a bit more of that in TNG. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I love this interaction here that data gives the unnecessary extra bit of detail that the word Mariposa is the Spanish word for butterfly. He says, thank you, Data. He says, I thought it might be... I thought it might be relevant. And because it doesn't seem to be. But the audience are all going, oh, okay, right, yeah. He just says no, sir. And then like, that's, I think that's very cute. Yeah, so this is quite good too. Like the mystery is immediately good and then this a very rare moment where they're both delivering dialogue at the same time. Oh, that was so strange. I mean, it's naturalistic because it happens in real life, but it doesn't happen in TV very often. No, and it doesn't happen in Star Trek. You know, it doesn't happen in Star Trek at all. It's it is interesting. So, here we go. weird back early 20th century, da, da, on the wake of the 3rd World War. Well, see, we're still kind of leaning into this, aren't we? And original Star Trek doesn't have any of this backstory, does it? Like this is Star Trek, the Next Generation thing, the the 3rd World War. And it's, you know, now Canon, I guess. Do you remember when we go to the gangster planet in TOS? They just land and there's people with gangster suits. And off we're going. I'm an adventure. when Star Trek gets so boring. Callum, will the Irish just beam aboard now, please? But of course, this sets up the mystery. Do you know what I mean? Why are there spinning wheels and computers on the same ship? It could be the most pointless and my favourite scene of the entire episode. The Klingon T ritual. Yeah, yeah, which is sort of, again, weirdly orientalist. Do you know what I mean? It's a foreign culture, so they must have a tea ceremony. But the upside of it is, and look how enthusiastic she is, she's wonderful. She really likes it. I wanted to do the Klingon tea ceremony with me before. She loves me. And then she's so consistent on being involved. She takes the antidote for this dreadful poison. She's doing it. Like, she's picking the flowers and putting them in the thing. She immediately takes over. She knows how to do it. She's home for life. that. Yeah, maybe. Worf likes it, but then she says, well, I've never experienced it. And she, that thing where he says, you mustn't drink the tea. It's deadly to humans and she says, actually, it's pretty bad for Klingons as well. And then he explains her. She has the antidote for this tea ceremony to hand. So was she hoping one day he was going to come in with the tea? Uh, no, no, it's just, I don't know. I doubt it. But she rushes off and gets the thing that she knows is the antidote to the tea ceremony and says, I'm going to do it. I'm going to participate. And so, again, this is this is it working, isn't it? Like she's enthusiastically participating properly in this thing. She's not going to fake it. This is a ceremony about sharing an experience and she's going to share the experience. It's wonderful, and she's still find reasons not to like Pulaski because she's not Dr. Crusher. Yeah, yeah. This line now is the best line of the episode. Now, read me some of that love poetry. Except the thing is too, don't you think Michael reads as a young man here? Like, Michael seems really young, and she's clearly a cool boy rather than that. He's really young. It's crazy. isn't it? Like, because when I was watching it as a kid, he was just an adult. Do you know what I mean? Well, I wasn't a kid. I was, you know, like at university, but he still seemed like at a proper adult. But now he just reads the last they did, where he does come across as a much more mature person. Yeah, he does go on a hell of a journey. Oh, here we go, right? So we turned up at the, at the Irish planet. Column, I would like you to prepare yourself for what you are about to receive on the transport apart, okay? It's so great. It's already went to work that day and went... It can't be that bad. I mean, I know it's written in quite a broad way, but I'm sure. and then they started shepherding in all the chickens and the pigs. And actually, I think that the pigs and the little that pygmy goat that the that the pregnant woman is holding and stuff, that that's all awesome. absolutely here for you. You don't see pigs. Absolutely. Do you normally? And and two, the fact that that's one of the things that sells the the boring white people, the Mariposa, the Mariposans on joining them. Do you know what I mean? The Prime Minister walks into the Cargo Bay and sees all those animals. And the thing that Danilo says, where, you know, how can we make a life without our animals, how are we going to live without them? Like, that stuff's all really good, I think. I like the fact that they want to brew their own grolk. because I don't trust the boring symphole. No, it turns out canonically you can make actual alcohol and get drunk on the ship, apparently. How do you make offensive stereotypes the most entertaining thing in the episode by bringing in a race of aliens so boring. So you would rather hang out with them. But look, we are now hang on. We're 13 minutes into the episode, right? And nothing's happened. They haven't even come on board yet. And so we get what? 10, 15 minutes with the Irish crowd. And then we get 10, 15 minutes on the planet and then the episode just thens. It's weirdly, weirdly unbalanced. It's very strange. It's not... Yeah here we go. Look at the little girl holding the chicken. Oh my god. Oh column. Holy fuck. Captain, you better get down there right away. There's something very offensive going on in the transport room. That's right. Oh my god, have you seen the subtitles? It goes, sheep barring. And that's so shit that we go to the closing. we go to the ad break and we have comedy Irish music, which is not digetic, and we're, it, Pecan's reacting like he can hear it, but shouldn't he be reacting to the pigs and the, like we should be able to hear the animals and him, but he's kind of going, what the hell is going on in the transporter room? I mean, have they gone all the way? No, no, no, it's not digetic. There's no one playing an instrument. It is just incidental music. And we do do little iron... Where the chicken flies out. It's awesome. That's so funny. I was like, what's going on in there? And again, I love Picard's reaction. It's overplayed because again, you know, Patrick Stewart doesn't know how to do this yet, but where he just decides, oh, fuck it this is funny. No, I've got to eat cheese. terrific that moment. I mean, yeah, it's a bit overplayed. But just to see him relax and go, this is so absurd, let's just go with it. Yeah exactly. And it's not like, I mean, we did, um, the way to Eden, okay, where the hippies come on board the Enterprise and their offensive stereotypes and and that's a story basically about how dreadful young people are. And we thought it was really, I don't think. No, he was horribly mean spirited. And of course, you know, all the, you know, the young people get killed and stuff and disillusioned. That was a great line just then. Did you see that? He goes, this is Mr. Worf, chief of security. And he goes, I don't suppose you have a lot of trouble with scary. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He is quite charming, even though he is. Yeah. A terrible, terrible stereotype. But Picard is here being a bit cross and annoying. Do you know what I mean? And then he just kind of goes, ah, you know. It's just all the clothes that they're wearing is so surgical. The massive handlebar moustache that one of them has like... Yeah, it's it's it's a bit much. But it is also the kind of immigrants are sexist and there from traditional societies that have bad gender roles and stuff like that. And, you know, that just seems to be a bit of an unfortunate sort of message. Oh, you married, Captain Picard. I have a daughter, you know. He goes. Yeah, all of that. Just the terrible sexual politics, but I do quite like how Brenna decides to go and make the Prime Minister of Mariposa, one of her husband because he's liking a lot of money. Well, no, I was a bit... I thought it was a bit icky when they're talking around the table and um, God, what's what's Barry Ingram's character called? Danilo. Dimilo. Oh, I'm going have to fuck 3 girls apiece. Great, yeah. All that stuff was really icky. But when she went, oh, it's man in power, is it? I'm going there. Say hello to him then. But each woman gets 3 husbands. Do you know what I mean? Like, like, and like that hilarious thing where Diana Malda later says, oh, you'll, you know, I'm afraid you won't be able to have traditional monogamous marriages anymore. And he kind of goes, oh goodness. Oh, no. What will we do? What makes you think that's happening anyway? Oh, boy, 0 boy. It goes, the bloody place is a death trap, Captain Picard. I've tried to make a fire and it's just shot out. So we get bloody here as a swear word because it's not an American swear word and so everyone's kind of okay with it. When I was a kid, I wasn't allowed to say bloody. That would have been unthinkable. It's the O'Brien go-to swear word, isn't it? Yes, yeah. And again, he can say it because he's Irish and it's an American TV show where it's not swearing. Remember that Scotty also says it in relics as well. It's kind of interesting. Did you start pullback there? To the whole cargo base, set up like a farm. I know. Yeah, it's quite fun. kind of terrible, but it is interesting to look at, because we don't know. stuff like that. And and maybe, maybe, is it Rick Colby is also right, because, I mean, clearly the main opposition is between the Mariposans and the Bringloidy, right? You know, one is... I know, that's from a Gaelic word or something. It's like Snodgrass chose it particularly. It's not just a space word. But the opposition between the Enterprise crew and this group is pretty strong as well, the Enterprise crew are advanced technologically and have huge sticks up their arse and stuff, and these people are much more kind of relaxed and a bit more colourful and interesting. Have you met many Irish ladies? Uh They are formidable. I'll tell you what, especially Irish mothers. I did love her line there. She goes, well, you might have all the time of the world. But I've got a load of Thai and hungry people to look after. So get out of my way. That was really good. And that's the way that you'd say that someone's a good person in Star Trek. Yeah, here it is. Captain Picard is smiling. what's going on Yeah, it's seriously true. What's happening? Yeah. But it is also like this is Star Trek and Star Trek is frequently silly like this. Um, you know, this this isn't a complete failure or a complete travesty. Sometimes when Star Trek is silly. It pulls it off and it's wonderful. This doesn't pull it off. I think it's too broad. when there's work to be done, she says. Yeah, yeah. Shouldn't you be flying this ship? Oh, come on. I mean, look, the spinning wheels in the back of the shop. She's milling the flower as we talk. God's sakes. Oh, look, there's some... Oh my god, what's that called there, Beyond, the wooden thing. For making dresses. Yeah, that's a spinning wheel. So making, um, not a sewing machine. That's for making cloth. I'm more used to seeing it in Cinderella or that sort of thing, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. She is beautiful, Brendan, though, isn't she? stunning. Yeah, yeah, Pierce. Well, a lot of a lot of kind of eye makeup, though. But she is stunning. very odd bit though, where she starts lifting up her skirts. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tell me, come ahead. Where does a woman wash her feet on this ship? I was like, that's not sexy. are you doing? Yeah, here we go. Oh, look at all that cow shit on her skirt. Wow, that is sexy. Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, the weird thing is, of course, that the next time we see her in his quarters she's changed clothes and she's in a sexier outfit, but somehow she didn't wash, like, uh, that worried me a little bit. I mean, I do like the idea of these sort of earthier, more grounded characters on the ship. That's fun, but there are more subtle ways of showing it on, yeah hitching up your shit stained skirts. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a bit too earthy. I like how Riker likes her and I like how just deciding he's going to have a sexual relationship with someone, he's going to try and have a sexual relationship with someone. No, no, no, no, no. She decides to have a sexual relationship. She clearly her decision. But, you know, he invites it. He's got her back in his quarters and stuff, you know, like he does want it as well. I just think that they start from the top and work their way down. I like how he undoes her hair and lets it fall. kind of gentle. Okay, are we going to the other planet now? Oh no, this is that scene. No. See, now, so she's changing to this really sexy outfit. Look at it. and it's it's awesome. It's great. Yeah, yeah, but she says, oh, I still haven't washed my feet and it's kind of like, oh, really? Come on, why don't you? before putting that on? She starts doing the washing up, look. For God's sakes. Well, you're not going to clear up this mess, are you? If someone walked into my house and started doing that. Ah, yes. Yeah, you're still one thing you haven't shown me somewhere to wash my feet. Like, come on. Like, I was scared that we were going to see the foot washing and I was like, that was too much. You have you have feet problems though, don't you? This is not a thing. we should go there, you know? Look, she's dropping a skirt. Oh, goodness, man. She is hard, isn't she? I'm coming over a bit funny, no. Yeah, yeah. It's unusual thing about for 90s trek to be genuinely sexy. Well, yeah, that's right. It's so sexless normally, and she is kind of hard, and this isn't like, because all those series of men that, you know, Deanna and Beverly Day are just kind of awful. Um, but she's stunning. She's fabulous. I just like how sort of insistent she is and how gentle he is. That's really nice. At the end, there's no sort of question that she just expects now that we're going to, you know, have a relationship or anything like that. Like she's just in it for the fling. you know what I mean? And then she's off, uh, you know, trying to uh, marry Wilson Granger, the prime minister. Oh, here we go. Danello, trying to... So, this is where we learn. And again, this is important stuff. Is there any way of making a fire about this bloody ship extinguishing with bolts? It's great. Sinthal, you calls it. So yes, we can make real alcohol in the replicators, we're allowed to do that. So with all the deleterious effects intact. say, yep, no, I want those. Every moment of pleasure in life has to be purchased by an equal moment of pain. Actually, I'm not sure that's true, you know. I feel like the pain actually outweighs the pleasure in life. I don't know. Yeah, but like does the hangover outweigh the drinking the night before? I don't drink in 20 years. I would know. Ali, he has one sip at the same for whole one goes terrible. No, that's whiskey. That's actual alcohol, but he hates it. And so and this is wonderful. Worf says, all right, have a Klingon drink. And then all of this is so ludicrously broadly played, but it would have... This is the bit I remember where he goes, boss. Oh boy, oh boy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, my God. But that's like the 60s. you know what I mean? It's like absolute kind of the performance, those big comedy performances from 60s trend. And then she comes in all brush, father, screaming her right off. So this might be the biggest problem, this sea. in terms of stereotypes. Oh, my darling now, is it? Hello, darling. Because he's because his throat is ruined by the by the Klingon whiskey or whatever. Oh, she wants to send us... Oh, yeah, that was quite nice. Pulaski again? Smart ideas? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Integrating the children. But she's smart. She's not a dickhead. We could have had a thing where, oh, no, we can't have them educating our children in their weird future ways or anything like that. Like, she's normal and she's kind of saying, can you not go and do something? And again, like there is something about that stereotype reinforcing that stereotype, like telling us that is actually quite good. you know what I mean? That is a woman who... The line, why did you have to tell them that magic wall can give them more than meat and potato? Try again, Melinda, or try again, Maurice. Well, no, but again, like she's saying that these men are useless and they will just drink, and that's not a message about men generally, it's a message about these immigrant men, and I think that's a problem, right? And there is just no subtlety in any of those lines at all. I mean, Danilo is basically dick emery in that scene when he walks off, you know, doing his comedy. He needs to play it like that. I just think underplaying it would have been a failure and we've seen, you know, like the, you know, the outrageous O'Connor comes on board and underplays it and it's just a disaster or whatever. Like, didn't you think this was... I thought this was done quite well. He goes, oh, we feared that the earth was destroyed to some terrible catastrophe. That's why no one turned up to come and see us again. She's like, yeah, no, we just forgot about you. I did think, though, do you know, when you go down to the planet, I don't know if it's been done when they did the upscaling, but the special effects of the clones altogether. I thought that was nicely done. It's not a special effect. There are 2 sets of triplets in the cast. Yeah. So there are 3 women, Kimberly, Michelle and Tracy Goldman, are the 3 white women. And the 3 black men are Floyd, Lloyd, and Troy Weaver. So they get 3 sets of triplets in to play the clone. It's not a special effect at all at all. It's actual clones playing the clones as it happens. There you go. The efforts that they go to in this show. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So there's 2 of them in the background, 2 of the Weaver boys are in the background of that shot. And these boring corridor sets. I mean, what did you do? Just sit there on that bench in the corridor and look at the art. There's the 3 women. There's the 3 girls and then and then later on when the door opens we'll see the 3 men. It's terrific. And then, you know, in another shot, a 4th one comes through, which is... thinking that Rick Colby had done some great split screen work. It's pretty good though. It's a great trivia, Nathan. And again, I just think this, like, this is very Star Treky. This is kind of what we're here for. I know this is sort of boring, but what Star Trek does, is it sets up these made-up societies in order to make a point. You've got a sore thing, no, don't they? Yeah, they do, but... It is a thing. You know, this is this is Star Trek doing what we expect Star Trek to do. Did you hear the better trivia about that art? Yeah, yeah, that looks like something from a TOS episode starring Diana Mulder. Yeah, I thought that was a nice touch. Yeah, so like obviously with this guy, the guy who plays Wilson and Victor Granger, one of Victor is the chief medical officer or the Minister of Health and Wilson Granger is this guy, the Prime Minister. They just do that by, you know, doing a shot reverse shot. Like, there is a full episode, don't you think, in the concept of making clones out of the enterprise crew. I mean, that's demon and it's very boring. Yeah, I think they give this the right amount of time. I think actually, you know, these are 2 kind of undercooked, um sort of an A plot and a B plot that come together at the end, but they present contrasting civilisations, you know, completely contrasting civilisations, and then bring them together at the end and say, you know, these weirdo eugenists, uh, who initially we have more sympathy for uh, than we do the Irish people because they're super annoying. It turns out the weirdo eugenists are the bad, weird guys who desperately need the Irish people to inject a bit of life and sense into them. And, you know, that's actually not a bad story to tell. And so it means that we spend enough time with the Irish people until we're bored with them and then they stop for a while and then we spend enough time with these people to not get bored of them. Do you know what I mean? Like, it doesn't, like, not a huge amount happens. I think Riker is weird in this scene, though. Well, when he says, oh, I want little clones of William... Melinda Snodgroff says, doesn't she, that when they kill the clones, the pro-lifers came after her, didn't they? Yeah. But she actually said that it was intentional, and there is dialogue in there saying, what happens to my body is my choice. You're not taking DNA off me and making people without my permission, and I have the right to stop you from doing that. Well, they see is in pulling the gun, isn't it? and killing a life, I suppose. But I mean, that's that's very deliberately portrayed that way. And it is a definite pro-choice message and it's really strong for an American TV show to do that because they always sort of dance around it. And look at America now. Like America now is there's a huge pro-life contingent that is in charge of the government now. And so it's a progressive message, which is what Star Trek should be doing. Literally do this story later in a run in 2nd chances where there is a 2nd wheel Riker. Yeah. And it doesn't diminish him at all. So God knows what he's talking about. Yeah, exactly. And, you know, like triplets are in this, in the cast here, there are triplets. They're not of less value because there's 3 of them, right? Identical twins aren't of less value because they're not unique you know. What was that line from Picard that? That is the thing about series one and 2 that really irritates me is that it's stuff that they would, he would never say later. He goes, I think you'll find that that opinion would be prevalent amongst the enterprise people. What? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's very good. my crew. Yeah, yeah. The enterprise people. Okay. Yeah. But, yeah, so, I mean, I really like that. I think that that Super bold and it is, she, she says, like, she's quoted in the, um, in the memory alpha page saying that she intended it to be a pro-choice message and that she was given support by the production team to include it. So good for her. I do like Dr. Pulaski there going, oh, Captain, you know, this is my one child to see a dying planet of clones. Please, can I go down and study them? And that replicative fading thing, I think, is well introduced. It's super important for the plot. We need to know that this cloning thing is a recipe for a stagnating and eventually extinct society. And later on they say it's got 50 years left maybe at the most. Yeah, see, there's 2 of those, the, um, weaver, um, triplets are in this scene. The camera moves across from one to the other. I wouldn't have much to say about these incredibly boring sets. So that, I will say that that door they just came in was impressively huge. Yeah, yeah. It's got some scale. I think there's sort of pretty decent space sets. Hang on a minute, you know. Why is one of those doors a sliding door? One of them's got a door handle that they open. Ah, who knows? I can say. No consistency. Going back to what you were saying a minute ago about the contrasting societies. It's such a contrast, though. I think that's my issue. is the golf between the 2 societies. It's so, it's just too obvious, I think. But isn't it, it's like that episode of um, Lower Decks where it's the cubes versus the 2 years. Yep, that's a joke. Yeah, but that's a joke. It's making fun of that Star Trek thing where you have the 2 society setup just to make a kind of point about immigration. And so the societies take these implausible shapes precisely so he can... My point is, like, I was waiting for the episode to catch up because I'd figured it out. The 2nd those boring people turn up. That's right Well, that's because you've watched television. And I was going through all of this boring stuff with them being knocked unconscious and having their memories wiped and needles going in and I was like, I know where this is going and it isn't going to be clones of Pulaski. Yeah, yeah. But do you know what I mean? there's something happening Do you know what I mean? And there is, like, I think we have to have the shot of the big needle going into their stomachs in order to make it a physical violation that they get to object to. So later on when they get told they're assaulted. It's our gauge of quality in season two. At least something is happening. Yeah, well, yes, we did manhunt last time. Yeah, that's true. We'll take anything as long as it's something. But they make it a violation. I think it's really good and it does justify the 2 of them just saying, actually, we're just going down there and wiping those clones out. Those are ours and we have the right to say whether they're made from us or not. And they go down there without permission from the Mariposans without permission from Picard and they just do it and they have every right to. It's like they're unconscious. The needle, right, the talk about the memory loss. They find the clones, they kill the clones. It's just like, what the hell? That's a good thing. Well, yeah. You know, that's a good thing. Can we get back to chasing pigs now, please? Yeah. I mean, even the contrast in the design with these boring gray sets compared to the cargo bay full of life. The contrast are just so obvious. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's deliberate. Obviously, it's deliberate. It's right there from the beginning. It's like the Mariposa was a ship that had spinning wheels and supercomputers on board. Did they actually say the climax? I can't remember, you know. You know, I think, I think you can bring a bit of personality to our society. Do they actually make the point explicit? Yeah, oh yeah, absolutely. Of course they do. I don't know. They don't say that. But yes, of course, you know, it's very clear. And again, you know, this is still Star Trek working out, look Star Trek always overexplains, doesn't it? Like just always over-explains. And it assumed that the audience is a bit dark. Yeah, but I mean, we had that in a, you know, like a Deep Space 9 episode last time. you know, where we had to have things explained to us even in a very, very good episode. Yeah, look, there's all 3 of them. All 3 of them behind the Prime Minister. All 3 of the weavers. as well. Oh, yeah. Oh, actually, one's a bit shorter. Oh dear. We're talking about the clones sort of going wrong, weren't they? So one can be a little bit shorter, I guess. Yeah, yeah. Replicative fading, it's called. Do we ever do clones again in Star Trek? I don't know actually. Yeah, I don't know. Isn't that funny? You would think it might be a thing that they do all the time. It doesn't become a thing. I guess, you know, we don't have genetic engineering and stuff in Star Trek. Like they just decide to make that a thing and that sticks for some reason and they use it as a story thing, even in strange new world. Yeah, this, we have the right to exercise control over our bodies. And then Pulanski says, yes, I agree. You won't get any argument from me. It's pretty good. Oh, here's true. I delivering a 5 lines of the episode. Thanks for turning up, Marina. Yes. So this is where we kind of say the Mariposans are basically doomed. 15 generation seems like a while, but like whatever. So what is their aversion to having sex? They just find it a bit repugnant. Is that what they say? It's a bit gross. No, they, again, for some reason, there's only 5 of them left, and they decide that they're not going to have sex anymore. Imagine all the clones, you know, Avenue, all the gene pole would be... Well, they, yeah, but I mean, the gene pool's a problem anyway isn't it? Because they're just using the same genomes over and over again. They have 5 genomes that they keep copying into different people you know, which is the problem. Only we had a load of beautiful ladies in the cargo bay waiting to be breaking men. Yeah, that's right. That's the conclusion we're drawing. Oh, Gene. I quite like this beard now where Danilo goes on about how many women he's going to have it off with. I was like, oh, boy. You're no prize yourself, and that's true. I think that's excellent. It's kind of like, shut up. I do like his objections, though, because he's so rude. He goes, it would take so long just to educate these people, you know. Yeah, but like he says, do you know what I mean? Like they've survived for 100s of years and they've farmed and they've, you know, they've managed to create a more successful society than the Mariposans have, you know, just because they don't have technology. They're not weirdos who never have sex and can't enjoy themselves in any way. Do you know what I mean? Like, the Bring Gloydia better than the Mariposans, I think. Occasionally, I like early Picard. Later on, he becomes a bit too much of a diplomat. He went there, I will not allow posturing and bigotry to ruin this media. Now sit out. Yeah, that's pretty cool. Oh, and then you get fine. Destroy yourself. Fine. Fine. I meant for Pulasti. We'll just move in in 50 years time, they'll all be dead and we'll just move into their cities. They're quiet, you might make the pair of reminisce, man. Pretty good. You'll see, Sus Picard, the end's closer than you think. Yeah. And because, of course, their planet's uninhabitable, isn't it? The ringloidy have to move. Like they have to go somewhere. And this, we're decent hard-working people. We're willing to learn. at least not stupid. lovely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Although we do. I mean, the very idea, Nathan, that the greatest horror that these people can imagine is a group of Irish immigrants moving in. I mean, Yeah, they're super racist. They're really bad racist, aren't they? I mean, that is a prevalent opinion, you know, in England sometimes. Oh, no, it has been absolutely for decades, it has. You know, like it's a long-standing thing. And maybe, maybe having real immigrants instead of, you know, like made up immigrants, like real recognisable, I mean, oh, far too recognisable immigrants, maybe that's better. I don't know. Nocamus marriage won't be possible for several generations. What will we do? It would be best if each woman, 0 God, has at least 3 children with 3 different men. Oh boy. But this is this is horny Star Trek, isn't it? Look, Riker, Picard is giving a little smile there at the prospect around the table going, should I what? I think I might go down to this planet, actually. Oh, come on holiday. I could be one of the men. Oh, boy. I've got to have sex with all of the Goldman ladies. Why do people spit on their hands before they shake them? I just don't understand. Yeah. I'm up to stake out my free women. And then send in the clones, he says, which is the original title of the episode. So he gets the original title of the episode. And in fact, it's still called sending the clones when the scripts are printed and distributed. So it's a late change. I think I would have called just send in the clones, you know. Yeah, it's a bit of a sort of ridiculous kind of gag though, isn't it? Look at the lady's plumping up the cushions. Well, I guess we're off to the planet. This is really cute. Like, it's a pregnant woman. I really like it's a pregnant woman. He reaches out to touch her, but then decides not to because don't touch pregnant women without their permission. But he's super interested because he's never seen a pregnant woman before a pregnancy before because there hasn't been one on his planet for 100s of years. And I would have loved... Lower decks to a show knows how this, you know, what happened after. I reckon they had a great time. I reckon that these guys learned to loosen up. because they realised, holy shit, why did we not have sex for centuries? Why did we not have whiskey? They're like, all drunk, we're in a week. Yeah. She's so great. She comes in and goes, why did you never stop to consider the women, Captain Picard? Actually, that's... She could be talking about the Star Trek writers there, couldn't she? But like... Oh, I didn't want to be if I want to be Eve. Come on. That's odd, isn't it, for Star Trek as well? Or just the religious anything? Yeah, just a religious reference. Yeah, that's right. And this, like, I love how he persuades her, and she accepts it and then she learns, of course, that she gets to have sex. She gets to have 3 men, 3 men at her beck and call. But she's got to choose the men of status, of course. And she's also been shown to be responsible. Do you know what I mean? She's not just hectoring the men because she's a scold. She's hectoring the men because all of the responsibility for looking after and fostering this colony has just fallen on her and the women because the men are kind of losers. Well, say euphemism? He might have 2 coins to rub together. Uh, no, I think I think that just means he's going to be wealthy. You know, we were trying to snag Picard as a husband as the owner of this ship as husband for Brenna earlier, and now she's going to have the Prime Minister, and... Sweetly just sort of skipped up to him, then, the Prime Minister. Oh, she outclasses him so much. He absolutely doesn't deserve her. She's in the middle of his legs. You don't have to be charming off. absolutely. Yeah, yeah, you are beautiful. Um, yeah, what a strange episode. That is. Like, like, kind of strange, but like, I really enjoy talking about that. I don't think it's the atrocity that everyone says it is. I really don't. It's early. It fails in all sorts of ways, but it's trying to do something Star Trek-y and absolutely succeeding at it. It's just a little bit embarrassing. And I think maybe that's what we can't forgive. be redefining a little bit in places. Maybe. Maybe it's quite embarrassing. But the embarrassment isn't everywhere. And it is early Star Trek. I mean, early Star Trek, these 1st 2 seasons are pretty rough, I think, but I think this is a pretty lively one. I appreciate that Melinda Snodgross went in with a very worthy message. And yeah, I think you're right. It's not her fault that what hits the screen. And I think it's a mixture of um, Maurice Hurley's rewrites and you know, pushing pushing the Irish stuff and Rick Colby's inability to drive any subtlety in some of those scenes in the cargo bay um, that sort of pushes the stereotypes over the edge. But that message is a positive one, and let's be honest, not a lot of season one or two. Well, I mean, if they've got messages, they're sort of blatant aren't they? and embarrassing. For once, this has good intentions. Yeah, no, there's 2 progressive messages in here, which I think are pretty good. And I don't think that it's anything like the worst episode of series 2. Like, and that's a pretty faint praise, but I think there are plenty of people who think it is. And when we rolled it, do you know what I mean? Like we rolled it and you said, oh, it's not up the long ladder, is it? And I said, yes, it was. And it's kind of like, because that's like, you know, the worst one we can imagine. Remember back in the day when we'd try and roll a Voyager and I would always say, it's going to be threshold, it's going to be threshold, and that is generally... came eventually, didn't it? That's right. And a much worse episode than this, let's say. But this is by no means the worst episode of the season. It's lively. It's intending to do something. It stumbles in the way that this early Star Trek always stumbles and it's a bit embarrassing in places, but like it's pretty functional, I think. I don't think it's as terrible as everyone says. They're getting there. They're not there yet. They're on much better episodes immediately before this and after Manhunt immediately after this. So the show is coming along and it is just about to flourish. But just for the Pulaski stuff alone. I thought this was well worth a watch. Yeah. And I think I think too, there's something about season two. This is our 2nd season 2 episode that we've done of Star Trek, the Next Generation, and season 2 is different from season one and different from seasons 3 to 7. And it's different in an interesting way sometimes. Manhunt had basically nothing going for it. But these structures are story in a way that would never, ever fly in the later seasons of Star Trek. And it was interesting to just see that and think about why they were structuring it like that. And just, just for the fact that we've sat through so many hideous chaste, just unsexy romances. The fact that they managed to pull off one scene where you and I were getting a bit hot under the collar in 90s track. Bravo up the long ladder. All right, it's the end of the episode, and after this triumphant success, it's time for us to pick another almost certainly worse episode of Star Trek. And to that end, I've handed the randomiser over to Joe, what series are we going to be choosing from? Fingers crossed. It's less culturally insensitive, but let's find out. Let's find out. Well, I mean, we've been sort of series specific for quite some time now. I haven't done my delightful all the franchise except the movies of course. So let's give it a go, shall we? Oh, okay, that's exciting. Okay. Your random Star Trek Voyager episode is season five, episode one night. Ooh. I don't think that's a very good episode, is it? It's the one where Janeway suddenly remembers the premise of the show and she's responsible for bringing them into the Delta Quadrant 5 years into the show. Yeah, it's kind of like resetting. It's like a series 2 episode one because we kind of retool the show at the beginning of series 4 by introducing 7. And so we resolve the 7 plot in hope and fear, I think. And then we're now trying to find something else to do. I always think that it's better than I end up finding it is my experience. I mean, I love the idea that they're in that regional space with no styles and everyone's getting a bit stir crazy. I just I like it when Voyager goes to sort of unusual places. But it is a conclusion that Jane Roy perhaps should have reached halfway through season one. Yeah, to be late. Let's go for something else shall we? Okay. Oh, Voyager again. No, we ain't doing this one. I'm sorry. We skipped it a couple of weeks ago and we're skipping it now. Season 5 again, episode five, once upon time. The Adventures of Naomi Wildman and Neelix. No, Nick. Yeah, maybe not. Some other time. keep going again. Okay, what's this? Your random Star Trek Deep Space 9 episode is season 3, episode 24 Shakar. So I think that's the one where he 1st comes along, Bajoran politics, Kai Wynn, sort of declaring war on him. Nah, let's keep going. I don't know. He's so boring. Oh, oh, oh, oh, it would be another TNG again, though, and it is a... It is a two-parter. Oh, I'm probably up for a two-parter, I think. Your round of Star Trek, the next generation episode is season four, episode one, the best of both worlds, part two. So we would do both best of both worlds. one and part two. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think so soon after doing hegemony as well. That's kind of super interesting. would be interesting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think. you know, obviously there are wonderful things to say about the best of both whales. But I think there are some criticisms to level towards the end as well. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it is pretty amazing and it's a huge moment, I think, in television history of the 1980s. Like it's a pretty significant thing that they decide to do. And I remember watching it at the time. It was the longest summer I can ever remember. for the 2nd episode amazing, isn't it? Yeah. I mean, I think I think they hunted for that moment again and again in 90s trek and maybe they only came close once or twice. Scorpion? Yeah, I think the end of call to arms. That's quite a good job. You know, that promised of a big fight. Or do you remember the Dominion pouring out of the wormhole in that 2 parter? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But again, like the season finale thing isn't something that Deep Space 9 ends up doing. It deliberately shies away from it. And what it tends to do is introduce a massive development in the final episode, which we then come back to see how that plays out. So it's not quite too parters, is it? I can't remember a better. I mean, I was young, but I can't remember a better how the fuck are they going to get out of this? Because Picard was on that ship? And it was either kill Picard or the ship goes to earth and we're all dead. And as a child. I was just like, I couldn't think of a way out of it. Unfortunately, the ultimate explanation is terrible. It's so... very boring. But for the summer, I was really thinking about it. Yeah, yeah. No, huge. An absolutely huge moment, which is why I think Strangely Worlds went back there at the end of series 2 in the beginning of series three. The irony would be if we enjoy it less than up the long ladder. I'll see what I can do We've been listening to Untitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford and Nathan Bottomley. We're online at Untitled Star Trek project.com, where you can find subscription links and links to our social media accounts. Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceran, and the theme was composed by Cameron Lamb. This episode was recorded on the 25th of November 2025 and released on the 28th of November. We'll see you next time for Star Trek the Next Generation, the best of both worlds, and the best of both worlds, part two. That was fun. Oh, that was great. It was really good. It was really good. What does jamma give it? I didn't even like... I dread to think. I'm gonna check. I always like seeing what would have come next. I bet he gives it a... Oh, no, I should have gone one more fuck. What did you get? Oh, could have been anything. I got emissary. Oh, I would love for us to have done one day, one day. We haven't actually done that many 2 parts, you know, given... gives it one. 5 5 . one. 5 . I'd probably give it a bim. Yeah, I thought he would give it a bam. The solution proposed to the end is hammered together as an exercise inconvenient TNG ultra simplicity. But, like, it's that sort of thing, but, like he says, oh, it must be solved using the available variables at hand. But she didn't make up the stories that went along. Like she knew where we were going and so she created the available variables to hand in order for that to be a solution to the problem. Do you know what I mean? Like it's a bad bit of criticism because it's kind of like, oh, how are we going to solve this problem? Oh, that's right. We've got some Irish people in the thing? Do you know what I mean? Like, that's not how this works. Oh, I did in the episode, didn't I? just waiting for the characters to catch up. She's reached a conclusion. It's just not there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, that's no good. Bad Gemma. But he doesn't like fun, does he? remember that. You know, he hates Rome. Rum, for God's sakes. Who hates rum? Yeah, that's absurd. That's just ridiculous. He does hate fun. He hates litres. No, I know. Madness. that's terrible