Waltz

Hey, Joe. Hi. So, we're back aboard Deep Space 9 this week, or more accurately back on Planet Hell, stock cave set number ones, right? For season 6, episode 11 of Star Trek, Deep Space 9, waltz, which is directed by Renee, as we said last time, and written, of course by our patron saint, Ronald D. Moore. They can't ever quite disguise the fact that it is Planet How. I mean, they have a good go here. Lightning, wind, there's sort of Gubbins flying back in there. Oh, come on, they are trying. There's more atmospheres here than there was in Skinner Evil, which is just... Yeah, that's true. They're trying it. And to be fair, he tries not to shoot that backdrop as much as humanly possible, but there are a few times where he has to do it. So yeah. Like TV's moved on to skin of evil, but not that much. We still have the sets up, you know. We do. We do. What do you think of this one? I love it. I love this episode. I know you have more efficient with it than me. I think it's something that DS9 does extremely well, which is put 2 characters in a setting on their own and allows you to see what makes them tick. And less Cisco, more Ducat. But any story that gives Marco Lemo this much screen time and allows him to work through his anxieties. It's basically extended a hell therapy on the hell planet. I just think it's great. I think it pushes too hard a couple of times. And I think they've got a massive, massive problem in that their villain actors are so charismatic and so likeable that they have to eventually write episodes like Empoc Nor and waltz to show just how truly evil those characters are. But it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter how many times you try and stress to us that Ducat was an evil man who raped planets and women and did terrible things. He's still played by Marco Lemo and we love watching him. It's almost a fruitless exercise. But a good one. So for me, this seemed like a very TV-ish thing. And normally what Star Trek would do in a sort of premise like this is that there would be a science fiction reason for Ducart to have the chorus. Would be on the holodeck or something like that. But here, they're kind of doing a conceit that's a little bit sort of daytime soap opera-ish, I think, by having, you know, various characters, it's some 3 different people, isn't it? It's um Wayoon, Kira, and Dema, playing aspects of his personality and he's kind of hallucinating against them. And so there's a level of kind of unreality to the premise for me that kind of fights against it being a sort of proper character study. What I think it is instead is we have this character, this incredible character. And we've kind of written ourselves into a bit of a corner with him. And what we want to do is we want to make him the big bad that comes up against Cisco in the finale. And they're working towards that now. He's not going to meet Cisco again until we're well and truly in the run-up to the finale. And so this is retooling to can't. And I think it does a really terrific job of that. We've had it happen before where he becomes head of the provisional government or something. Is that right? You kind of go, wait, how did that happen? And then you realise it happened because they wanted to keep Mark Lane. When they boxed themselves in the corner of the Cardassians in the Klingons or attacking Cardassia. So they go, well, what the hell are we going to do at Marco Lemo? Oh, I know, is going to take over a Klingon ship and have a one man crusade against the Klingons. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And all of that's great. You know, that's what you do when you have this huge stable of kind of secondary characters, with these great actors and you want to give them things to do. So you give them these sort of slightly preposterous storylines that don't really hold up to much scrutiny, but who cares? We get Marco Lemo. And so that's what this is doing. And, and like, I think there are probably people who think that, uh like with Kai Wynn, um, you can't actually start off as a little bit more of a grounded character. Um, Kai Winn does too as well. I mean, Kai wins like any number of sort of American religious figures that are contemporary, you know? And then they get turned into sort of giant space operations. you know, side teacher characters, which take care of the politics. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's terrific. But you do lose something, I think. Some of the songs you sacrifice. Yeah. sacrifice these sort of more grounded characters for that. And the thing that this episode does to its credit is it very clearly establishes a version of Ducart, who is genuinely likeable and possibly even heading towards redemption. And he only lasts for that opening scene. He's only in the cold open. And I think that's an incredible performance by Alemo and a great 2 hander by the 2 actors. And then we have the opening credits and then suddenly we're in this sort of a kind of heightened fantasy world. We're suddenly on the set. We don't know how we got here because Cisco was unconscious, so suddenly we're in this completely different situation, and there's a level of unreality to it. And it's a situation in which this character is going to change. And the thing that struck me is the big pivotal scene is the scene between Cisco and and you can't, where Cisco gets, you can't to admit that his feelings towards the Bajorans are homicide. Genocide. It's a great scene. But there's a sense in which I can't help thinking it might have been better had it taken place at the trial that we were promised in the opening scene. Because what happens is it takes place in this sort of weird fantasy world where there's, you know, illusions and, you know where he's talking to imaginary people and stuff and going a bit crazy. But what we get is Cisco needling him in this very forensic way asking him exactly the right questions that will lead him to turn into the giant supervillain that he ends up peeing at the end of the episode. I love it when Cisco's, you know, going, you know, I didn't see what you had to put up with day after day. Yeah, of course, yeah. You had to make those choices and I'm like, oh, you're playing him so well. I mean, I get what you're saying. And I think that would be a more typical Star Trek episode if it was in a courtroom. It would be very the drumhead. But I just love the atmosphere that Renee brews up in that cave. I'm getting massive misery vibes, you know. Yes, oh, absolutely, a.k.a. golden car. Is it obsessed? She wants to get the book out. He just wants him to say, I'm your friend, gold Ducar. You know, has all he wants from Cisco. is some sort of he's such a low at the moment. He needs his bitter enemy to say I endorse you somehow. Yeah, that sequence at the end, right? I think it's one of the most incredible bits of acting you're ever going to see in Star Trek because either if you're going to do that, if you're going to write something as operatic as that, as an actor, you just have to go for it. Fuck does he go for it, right? You know, this stupid broken wrinkled notice, you know, like, yeah yeah. And I'm like, 0 my god, he is utterly unhinged. Like Jesus Christ, he snapped. And it's just wonderful to watch, but as well, the Phantom's right. And I, yes, it's not very Star Trek at all. It's Jeffrey Coons being a vicious asshole. It's Nanar Visitor in a series of wonderful moments, really, you know, sadistically needling at his anxieties and it's also, um what's a fellow who plays Tamar? Casey Biggs purring in his ear, you know. Of course you had to do the things you wanted to do. I mean, it's great telly. I don't care if it ain't Star Trek. It's why it's terrific actors just doing something really weird. I love that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, I like that as well. But like I said, the artificiality of it, the TVness of it. play couldn't it? It could be on the stage this. Yeah, it could be, again, but what you can see it doing is moving the pieces into place, like retooling the character. And that's one of the things that I like about TV, and one of the things I like about Deep Soce 9 in particular, is that it sees what works as it goes along, and it changes and emphasises things and goes off in other directions as it discovers what it's about. It's not Babylon 5 with its five-year plan, all carefully kind of written out in Strazinsky's exercise book. It is a collaborative thing that develops as it goes along. And you can very much see that happening where you knock on another level then. Because it's, you know, they've seen what works and they've done it to such a great level. They've got, oh no, we've done this too well. everyone likes him too much. Jesus, of course correction. And I think as magnificent as Markelemo is this. I really do think he gives a stunning performance in this. It's mad and it is occasionally over the top and it's quite scary at times as well. The bit where he picks up the pipe and goes, you've been doing a bit of repair work and then starts smashing the life out of Avery Brooks. I mean, he can be pretty scary too. I think Avery Brooks is wise that until that last scene, he doesn't try and match a Lamo's energy, because he's never going to best him. So his restraint in this episode, you know, as he's trying to get the thing working and find various ways of escaping and needling that him, I think it shows a very clever side of Cisco in this episode. I think they both come out of this really well. Yeah, I think it's very generous of Avery, and you can see that having Renee do this episode is the right choice as well because it is just 2 men in a room talking and he's very good at that stuff. Remember? It's on the back of their enormous argument in Far Beyond the Stars, which was just a huge few episodes. Oh, is that a few episodes to come? I can't remember now. I don't know. This was the point where Brooks and Renault Aubergenois were in sort of like creative disaccord, but in that happening, what came to the screen was just incredible. You get like scenes you get in here, but you also get scenes like the ones between him and Pabst in Far Beyond the Stars, you know just incredible moments of Star Trek. So it's like I said about Kate and Jerry, you know, sometimes this discord can hit the screen in really interesting ways. And they're both passionate about it. They both want to do good work. That's why it's good work, you know? I mean, Jesus, do you remember what we watched last week? No, exactly. No one's passionate about that at all. No one cares. All right. What do you think? Should we go? Dr. Cox would be surprised. Let's do it. Okay, all right, here goes. Five, four, three, two, one, and we're off. Ah, the Honshu. Here we go. It's very pretty. It's nebula class. I didn't even have to look that up. I don't like this at all because I think that this, you know, you have to do captain's logs, okay? and so that's fine. It's part of the you know, part of the genre, part of the way the show works. But we could have worked all of this out. I mean, part of it is the problem that Deep Say sign is constantly having to explain to us what happened because it's not super fully serialised and you can't just nip back and watch a previous episode. If you've forgotten the way that you can now. I feel like it's the one concession they have to make is, all right, we'll tell people what's happened. Yes. It's just a little bit too rightly and a little bit too cliched, I think. I like him saying, I know, part of me wishes he was dead. You'd never have Picard opening an episode like that. I just don't think that's so great. So I have to say that this version of Guldukat, I think, is amazing, and this version of their relationship is extraordinary look at him. You see facial expressions from a lameo that you've never seen before and that you won't see again. It's a really, really restrained performance. I'd hate to think they were patronising me. That is so funny. That's a proper funny gag and he doesn't mug or anything. Oh, mental health, I think, is great. It's really good. And and so what they do is they bring him back to a place where he's really extraordinarily, and extraordinarily restrained, where it's possible to imagine some kind of redemption. And it is, after all, Star Trek, right? That is the sort of thing that Star Trek does. And I think, you know, given his role in the show, that would have been a terrible choice and they don't make that choice. They make him go out in a grand evil gesture at the sort of the end of the show. Surrounded by flames. Yeah, but he's great in this scene. The 2 of them are so good together. This was the sort of relationship that you had between the 2 of them in one to three, when they would do a lot of stories like the marquee and things like that, where they worked together. And, you know, there were still moments where you didn't trust Dukat and there were reversals and things like that, but it was generally quite relaxed between them. What's different here is how Avery plays these scenes. Because back then he was quite relaxed because he knew he was in a positional. Now he's a little bit restrained and a bit frightened of him as well. Like there's a reserved wavery here. Well bad things have happened. But like this conversation about Ziel is just great. It's so good. You know, even the sort of thing where he says, you know, we only had her for a short time and and you can't say as a short time was all she ever had. Like all of that stuff is really great when, when, when he says, oh you know, Dr. Cox, did Dr. Cox encourage you to say that and kind of, you know, Cisco's a little bit taken aback by that because he's being honest and and you can't realise this he's being honest and that he was being a bit of a prick and apologises and stuff. And now here he is thanking Cisco for looking after her. All of that stuff is so great. Like it's it's really, really properly good. This is great character stuff, but this is our starting and this this you can't, there's no sign of him after the opening credits. It's, uh, the thing with Ziao, that was part of the issue. And it was part of the reason why he was such a complex character is that he goes to find Ziao in indiscretion and he's going to murder her because it's, uh, it was an indiscretion with a Bajoran. She's half Bajoran, half Kardashian, and his family can't find out when his family finds out that he comes back with her. His wife leaves him. His sons never talk to him again. Not well, until he gets the empire. then they're back Oh, really? We forgive you. It's fine. But so, you know, those are all things that make you like a character. So they have boxed himself in that corner because then they have him come along. And yeah, he's taken over the station in that 6 episode arc, but he's trying to build bridges with Kira and create this weird sort of family unit with Ziaul. sort of fantasy family that he's got in mind and all of this stuff. And Alemo plays all of that stuff. The parent, the seducing scenes, so well, I mean, creepy, but so well. We kind of did need this episode. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, they have to find something for him to do, and I think making him the main antagonist in the finale is exactly the right choice. him and Kai win. You know, they're both incredible actors. They're both great characters with a long history of the in the show, but it does kind of align them a little bit. I think it's... Don't you recognise the face of your enemy? So the other thing which is interesting too. is that we had that scene, we had Marco Lemo do some hilarious kind of we're under attack and the ship's being bombarded acting with his hair going on their own stuff. Expert at that now. Yeah, but it doesn't actually, that isn't what the episode's about at all. Do you know what I mean? This is like the framing device. This is how we get there. And then we're going to go into the B plot, which is is needed, I think, because the A plot is kind of intense. Technically, the whole episode could have been set in the cave right? Like, they could have done this. in the cave and go, I'll post the crash. We've woken up. Yes, I wondered about that too, but I think there's a very definite, like you, you want to start showing what you can't could be. Yeah? And where he might be heading. Like you want to set up an expectation and some sense of what he's like, what our baseline is at this point. And then as he goes crazier and eviler during the episode. Do you know what I mean? So we need the starting point. Um, I think this is quite well done too, because now we learn that the Honshu, we learn that the Honshu's been exploded. They've all heard it already, so we don't hear. Do you know what I mean? They've heard about it, so we don't hear them hearing it for the 1st time. Um, and that's quite a shock, I think, because we were just sort of shaking about a bit in the brig. You know, it just before the opening. See, Renee, using that wonderful set there so well. The camera started looking at them coming out the door, then it swang around and went down the stairs with them behind them and then swang around to them all at ops. Now, I'm not saying that's a revolutionary piece of camera work. I'm just saying that's a bit more interesting than what you normally get in 90s trick. Now, there is a ticking clock in the B clock, which for once isn't delivering vaccines to corners. It may as well be though. Well, except I actually think that this is quite good, because it's quite a good moment for wharf, I think. But there is some pretty shitty manufactured conflict, I think, in the B plot, and we'll get to it. It's a wonderful moment when they beam in 2 survivors. And they both definitely go. But we do as well. for fuck's sake, all right? I am just here. All right? That was one of those Nintendants. Bless them. I always like scenes with Kira and Worf, because obviously Worf is in charge on the Defiant, technically, and Kira is in charge on the station. And I just like watching Kira Boss wharp about. is great. Yeah. No, but this where she's giving him the instructions. You know, please you can't, you don't have any more than a 2nd you have to be there. And like the stakes are like 30,000 troops in the unarmed car. They've got a list on the wall, you know, when they need these stakes. Right. Which one should we use today? Yeah. But that's a good one because I think it's absolutely, you know justified that they abandon the, the, uh, they abandon the, the search for, for, for Cisco, you know, it makes it a real thing. It's not like the colonists that we don't care about. It's some troops we don't care about. In many ways, they're trying to do another version of Duet. Oh, they duet walls. It's air in the tile, you know? And it is 2 people in a confined setting and it is very intense and we do learn a lot about those people as a result and they are developed. So it is a very similar sort of peas. I think the mystery in duet is far superior, like there isn't really a mystery here, it's all spelt out for us. Um, and oh, maybe the acting is slow, even better injure, because it's Harris Zulin doing that incredible performance. But we're 6 seasons in here, this is more interesting for me because I know these characters. Yeah, I would say that both duet and progress are superior to this I think, as episodes. And I think one of the reasons is that most of what's going on with Ducat is weird madness nonsense. Do you know what I mean? where he's talking to kind of, you know, madness, nonsense. I actually think Nanara actually goes on, should have been reading. I love it when she starts cackling like a witch. Yeah that's so bad. We're going to go back to DS9 and have a good long laugh and you're expanded. Yeah. Yeah. Well, no, because you know that because he's had loins where he's gone, yeah, does anyone miss me on Deep Space 9? And they're like, no. No one misses you? But I also think too, that neediness is a little bit sort of, that neediness undermines his character a little bit as well. Yeah, it should. He's pathetic. It's a little boy that wants acceptance despite the fact that he's in charge of systematically murdering half a planet. But he didn't come like that. Like that wasn't the initial kind of, uh, you know, way he presents himself, I think, when the show 1st starts. Um, and, like, I was sort of, like, isn't his need for Kira's approval in the, you know, when the station's occupied. Um, isn't it just to annoy Kira? Isn't it kind of, isn't that what he's doing? He tries to manufacture. I could make things very happy for you here, Kira. You could start by doing something about your breath. So good. I love their relationship. Oh, watch Jeffrey Combs now. is so vicious in this scene. And of course, at this point, we don't know that he's a madness you know, he's an illusion. we think he's really there At the end of the scene, you do, because he shoots the rock, doesn't he? Way in Scotland. That's where we know. And so that's, I think we go to an ad break on that and the ad break is, 0 my god, Ducart's mad. Like, I think after what he's been for, it would unhinge your mind right? If your daughter was murdered right in front of you, no? Yeah, but where do you... If you had an ego, the size of his and your entire empire was dragged away from you, you were on the cusp of ruling the alpha quadrant and now you're a pathetic war criminal. I think it would unhinge your mind. And you would see illusions of people that you know representing different parts of your personality. Well, the sakes of this episode, yes. That's right. That's what I mean. Do you know what I mean? Like there's a level of unreality there. There's a level of TV showness. We're setting up a TV show in order to examine a level of TV showness in a TV show, though. No, no, no, exactly, exactly. But one of the fun things that Star Trek sometimes does is it does that by we're trapped in the holiday and it's been imprinted on his personality or something, you know, facets, you know, like whatever, we do, you know, we do a space thing, that makes it happen. Here we do, like I said, before a daytime soap opera thing, where we just have the other main characters, you know, just in the room talking to me. Dance Night is best when it's a daytime soap. Oh, yeah, yeah, absolutely. I'm not complaining. Take this poor beggar to cut out onto the streets. I'm sure it will teach him a bit of humility. Like, when Disney is the sofa is wonderful. I do love, though. I love the lines here where he goes I wonder if you still have the same respect for you if you saw you screaming and screaming until the nurses came to sedate you because it does give us a peek into what was going on and it sounds horrific. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, it is sort of, it's genre TV show madness. Do you know what I mean? Like, it's, yeah. I'm good with that. Yeah. Yeah, you know, like we said, it's genre TV. Do you know what I mean? Like this, is he lying about the vomit? Because there's no vomit anywhere. Oh anyway, he must have cleaned it up. Exactly a little bout, he says. Yeah, yeah, that was a pretty good line. Why is it pretty good life? smiles. It's so disgusting I quite like that. that horrible story. this guy goes, yeah, let's talk about something else, apart from the 3 people who explode. The emissary has spoken. Oh, bless him. So the trouble is, of course, the way Cisco is revered, and that is precisely how he wanted to be revered, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. They couldn't appreciate everything I did for them, you know. I think the best speed is where he just goes in and just un selfconsciously is a massive supremacist. Like he just goes, they're inferior to us. And like, that's the moment, you know, and that's the important thing, which I don't know, and we had him say it quite as boldly as that before. No I don't think so. Yeah. You know, that it becomes a thing about just sheer racism. Just say militarily, culturally, culturally, they were behind us they're primitive We didn't choose to be the superior race. That's right. That meant that we had a right and maybe a duty to go in and run their planet for. It's irredeemable that, isn't he? Yeah, yeah. That's the moment, I think, where it's just like, oh, okay, we're not coming back from here because he's not embarrassed about that. That's not something that he thinks he shouldn't tell Cisco because it's shameful. He doesn't just go after the culture and the religion in that speech. He goes over just their facial appearance. And what they look like, you know, the best, the most basest racism you could possibly, you know, yeah. say it's it's it's an extraordinary moment. I wouldn't want all Star Trek to be like that, but I'm pleased they went there. Well, I don't like this, like what the salt and pepper thing. like why is he being such a prick? I don't care. He's trying to wind him up. I guess so. Oh, this is just, they didn't give me much of a Charles. They were too busy plotting my downfall. Yeah, I wonder why. But again. Yeah, Pepper, come on. Also complaining that food doesn't have enough pepper, and it just people only do that on television, don't they? It just doesn't seem... pepper and moss soup, don't you? No, yeah, yeah, yeah, I do. And actually, now that I think of it, I'm sure Calvin has complained that the soup is cooked doesn't have enough pepper in it. But it just seems, again, a bit sort of TV show dialogue. You know, I went to all those efforts to heal the wounds between Bajaw and kind of, you know. Oh, is he talking? No, he's talking about now now, isn't he? Not then. He's talking about the recent occupation. I mean, this is just, yeah, yeah, yeah. We're talking about all these consequences. What happened? There's only a few episodes ago. Isn't it? It's 5 episodes ago. This is episode 11. You know, like when does you can't leave the station? It's episode six, isn't it? I think six. Oh, no, I suppose 7 with that 10 episode arc. That's the most sort of arc heavy, isn't it? But 6 is pretty solid in terms of, you know, a running narrative and discussing consequences. And so is this the last time we see Ducart in this season? No, no, you see him again, don't you? At the end of the season, when he kills Dax. Oh, Keen Sacrifice of Angels. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tears of the Prophets. Tears of the prophets. Yes, that's true. all got very operatic titles. Yes, don't they? Exactly. That's what we want. Oh, no. He's in wrong staff, darker than Deaf and Knight as well when he's having sex with Kira's mother. That's a year episode. Back in the past. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's past to go. He pops up. I mean, talk about a soap opera. He pops up at the start of that. He goes, ah, I see you're buying buying lilacs. Is it your mother's anniversary? yeah. She used to love it when I touched her hair. And she was like, what the hell? Total soap. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Casey Pigs, man, you'd be a great sort of gay romance figure the way he starts whispering to cut in this scene. I think that he is really great and really underappreciated because you've got, you can't going off being, you know, insane possessed par Rafe Ducat in season 7 and you've essentially got Damahu is a bit of a loser, isn't he? like initially. Um, and he, he's great. Do you know what I mean? Like, and he's a he's a terrific actor, I think. I think he knows he'll never, ever best. Nemo's lunacy. So we kind of underplays it, but you get very close to Damara in season seven. Yeah, yeah. And I think for those scenes between Damar and Wayuna, great. Like, I'm not sure that I'm missing Ducant in those scenes at all. I think you're very really good together. Oh, winding each other up. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And when, you know, actually, you know, gets his sort of, you know gets his spine back. That's pretty good. The real punch, yeah. But the way he says things like, you know, have fun in your meeting with the founder. And if not, I look forward to meeting Wayne 7. This stupid box with the system online and system off-line. It's great. It's right. That's the mobile phone. That's right But like, like, what's it, you open it up and it's got a system offline thing flashing and he's fixed it so it says system online on the front. For some reason, offline and online aren't one word. They are hyphenated. They're truly trying to show us visually where that box is at. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Oh, bless the lameo, look, having a conversation with a wall. Yeah, see, all of that sort of stuff, I think. Like whenever I'm encouraged to think about what Cisco can see him doing. I just sort of think that's really not very good. The one moment that I think is absolutely superb is at the very end when he's in the shuttle taking off, and we look in and his little chorus are behind him, they're going... which everything is so, so... right over there, waiting. Ready, ready? Go with the lightning. And they all flash and you see that? It's so great. That's just about my favourite thing about that conceit. My favourite bit is where I know you think she's over the top. She didn't go far enough as far as I'm concerned, is where he's going, let's pretend that the major isn't even here. And she's next to him going... Yeah, that's awesome. That's brilliant. like, what the hell am I watching now? Jesus Christ. That stuff's really good. It would none of it play. if I didn't have these actors. I mean, if you did this script onto TNG, we would be in trouble. Oh, yeah. Or, you know, they would never attempt... Imagine him down in this case. Yeah, yeah. Jesus. Okay, right. Now, the Defiant is on the hunt. Yeah. Yeah. So this is a much more boring plot. And I think there's some weird like cuts between this and that. So we've come back from the ad break with the B plot, and it looks like we're going to have a scene, but that scene never happens because we just go back to the A plot, and I don't know what happened there. That just seemed very odd. Don't you think you come back from the... We don't go on to the ship. We just say, okay, don't have a scene. coming. Okay, they're coming. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I do, like, some of the cuts when it, in a minute, when he looks like he's got it working and then we think they're detecting his signal and then those people come. That's that's, you know, usual drama techniques, but it works. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's fine. I think that's that's good, you know. I do like the fact that he's using the little tide there, just a little fork tied. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's pretty good, isn't it? It's a competent engineer. I'm sure. Commander Cisco. All you need to do is stick a bit of metal in there. and you can fix it. You don't require pressing any of the buttons. Well, we're just waiting for that misery moment, aren't we? Where she comes in with with the mallet. You've been doing a bit of repair work, have you? Do you know I read the book, the only Stephen King book I've ever read is Misery, and it's much nastier than the film. What does she do in the book? Oh, the foot comes off completely and she cuts his fingers off and stuff. It's like really, really horrible. I just remember seeing the lake in the upper direction. I'm like, oh, no, that's enough. It's really... Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's full on. It scared the hell out of me, even though I was super familiar with the with the film. He says in this scene. He goes, you know, we should stay in this cave, you know, it's very inhospitable out there. We can be friends. Let's stay in this cave because it looks really fake out there on planet Hill. It does look fairly fake in here, to be honest. Oh, no, as fake that. I mean, for God's sakes, why didn't they junk? That's it. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I quite like. I don't mind that. And to be honest, Star Trek now is still made in, you know, like a set like that, but it just has the effects wall, you know, so you can project things on it that look more convincing, I guess, and more detailed rather than just the red sky. This reminds me of that, that scene in indiscretion where to cut sat down on that enormous spike. Do you remember? And it gets stuck in his arse and him and Kira have a comedy moment in the middle of... She has to pull it out. Oh no. very funny. Oh, dear, he doesn't see the humour in it, but Kira does. Oh, what is this? Sitting together, just like the 2 old friends. We're old friends that we really are. Come on, Ducal. You know better than this. Yeah, I think that stuff slightly weird. I mean, at least Cisco is not in his dialogue. You can see him considering is, okay. All right. I'm going to go along with it because he's crazy. What do I do? I'm nearly out of here. I've got the thing going. I just need to keep him talking. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think you're right. Like, he's absolutely underplaying it, and I think he's partly underplaying it because he himself, like Brooks goes really big in that final big confrontation that we talked about. before. I mean, go and watch him as doctor nowhere in Arman Bashir. For God's sakes. He can do freak only goes over time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Oh, here she is. I think you're an evil sadistic man who should have been tried as a war criminal years ago. Put up against a wall and shut. I think making her as well. Like, Waoon expresses contempt for him, doesn't he? And kind of represents the dominion and sort of like the ruthlessness and all of that sort of thing, you know, Damara approves of him and is very Cardassian and stuff. And, so, you know, 2 of them kind of disapprove. And, Yeah, like I, I think she's been great. Many seasons trying to impress Kira are not succeeding. So I can imagine one of his anxieties would be that she would not take him seriously in any way, shape or form. It's just how nasty she is, you know? I love this side of us. Yeah. I think that, that, you know, the big important moment is that conversation where DuCart shows his real colours even to himself where he's suddenly realises what he was thinking all along because he didn't know that. swings around though, but they're all there and they just get one line apiece. I think, and that last one, that's well done as well, I think. I mean, I think this is quite well directed. This stuff is when done badly. This stuff can be very pony. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think that's right. I think you've got really good actors and you've got the perfect director for it. But it kind of hides the fact that most of this, do you know what I mean? Like, it's a bit of a crunch, I think, is what I'm saying, that progress doesn't need something like that, and neither does Walt you know. Remember, we've gotten to the stage now where we feel like we need to present something a bit more entertaining than 2 people in a home. Yeah, we've already seen progress in Walt, not Walt's progress, and what's the other one? Duets, rather. Yeah, progress a duet, which I think are both great, but we have had them. Do you know what I mean? This is a bit more fun and a bit more silly and a bit more kind of over the time. They did the one with Garak and Bashir. That was a two-hander as well. The wire. They do the one we've got, Bashir and O'Brien down on the planet with the Gemadar. That's in season four. So they do do these 2 handers every now and again. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're just always great for just getting to the nub of those characters, I think. I think two. I think, I think too, that Voyager's counterpoint takes its name from Waltz and Duet. Do you know what I mean? That it's another musical thing. Yeah, this. Come on, settle down and uh... Pick up, pick up. No, that's that's just that's embarrassing. Go for it, girl. Go on. You were a soldier and you have to carry out your orders. He doesn't believe that lame excuse anymore than you do. Do you know what I really like? He's cut back to Avery, who is kind of looking puzzled. And then you said thinking, well, What did you want to see especially? Oh, there it is. fun. She won't leave well enough alone. She's always trying to upset me. I mean, he's pathetic. But he kind of is pathetic. But that is so much fun. Like if she's leaning against his shoulder and everything. It's really awesome. Stocked with her message. Yeah, that's that's pretty good. no reason to count upset, no, just 2 old soldiers talking around the campfire. Oh boy. Yeah, it just, I think maybe, maybe I make concessions because it's just these characters. I just find them so rich. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I don't think it's bad. Do you know what I mean? I don't think it's bad. But I do think it is, it's very TV-ish and very TV drama and stuff. And, you know, there's a version of this where it is the trial or there's a version of this where they try and write this stuff without going quite so big. And maybe that's much less fun. You know, now he's fighting, firing the phaser everywhere. I hear is laughing from every crevice of that cage. Oh my god. In fact, I did, I thought the direction that was really great because suddenly the laugh is just everywhere. The sound event is everywhere. And so now we get these 2 boring people. It's just an incident, a lieutenant that we don't care about, have been beamed up and we thought for a 2nd that this was going to end with, um, Ducart and Cisco being beamed up 16 minutes. the episode anywhere near the end of the episode, yeah. See, this is great. We've had that very sort of silly and intense moment and now he realises. What's going on with that fork down there? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's pretty great, actually. I look at his place. He knows what's coming. straight away. That's what's really good about it because it is, we see the fork and then the camera just goes up and looks at Cisco looking guilty. Like, Cisco knows that he's seen the fork. I don't know what that means. This must have been very uncomfortable, Benjamin. Well, because it was sitting on the floor. Yeah, it was under the blanket. It was just sort of... Oh, okay. It was lying on the blanket. Oh, this is a bit on the nose. Why would you need a small thin piece of metal? Thin piece of... Wait. repair work, have you on the side? But this all leading up to the pit that we want where he finally loses his shit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And actually, Avery plays I've just been beaten up really well as well. He looks cowed and bloody and yeah, it's a great bit of acting. Oh, they almost picked up the signal then. Yes, yes, suddenly it goes off. That's very TV, that, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's great. Oh, God. Yeah, they never find misery. Here we go. I thought we'd delivered a level of trust between us. I'm literally disabled in this cave and can't go. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's so good. so much fun. Oh my word. Yep, out to the out to the ad break, so we don't have to say that happening. I might have done. You remember that shot we had in that great episode where the Gemadal punched straight at the camera when they were punching Ducat? We should have had it from Cisco's point of view there. Ah, the pipe coming down. Now, this is a scene that I don't like. I think this is just absolute bullshit and, and, um, and Wharf is right. Wharf is right, and so is Dax. Is that any ever right on DS9? you noticed? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think it's a good moment for wharf. This thing, I couldn't understand a word. Kira said. And it's just like, fucking grow up with you. 30,000 people. is his wife? And Dank was just saying, she's saying, yeah, just about what we think. It's down to him. But she also says, I could understand. I could understand what she was saying. She isn't going along with the lie at all. And it like, and it's just like, come on, really, grow up. It's 30,000 people who are unprotected and he's going, you will forgive me if I think that saving Captain Cisco's life is more important than your honour. And it's just like, it's like you're going to disobey Kira when she gives you a command to protect some people. Do you know what I mean? Like, it's not more the problem. You know what the problem is? I don't Well, I mean, Bashir is the problem, but it's the writers because they genuinely think these captains are like, that's why they turn him into a god in the last episode. It's because they they think they're these great status symbols you know, of the show. Whereas come on, 30,000 people. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right. I mean, it would just be absurd. Do you know what I mean? would you do that? And everyone would say, yes, you're right. It's terrible. We have to say goodbye to Cisco, but we can't. I could say this line, Nathan, to you about my opinions on this podcast. It always comes back to that, doesn't it? My crimes. I'm such a monster, such an evil man. Behold, Nathan Bottomley. Supreme arbiter. A man, such high moral calibre. Yeah, that sort of shits me a little bit, I have to say brilliantly, though. Yeah? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. But this, like where it's just Cesco going, what the fuck are you doing? What is going on here? What do you want? Finally, you know, his help out. You just go pull out that gun and shoot me because I am never going to give you the endorsement that you want, all right? That's it. Here we go. Yeah, me and the truth. Here we go. So we have our trial scene now. It's technically a trial. Exactly. It's the trial. No, he's going on about evidence and stuff. He's cross-examining him. He's doing what we were told would happen in the cold open, you know, in a proper legal thing. So we end up with the trial anyway. Cisco's lying to do for air. All right, let's do it. He goes. Yeah, yeah. really good, isn't it? It's very intense. I mean the rehearsals must have been hilarious. Yeah, amazing. But these true or false, true or false? See, it's questioning, it's absolutely forensic questioning. Just like a TV courtroom. False. I tried to save lives during my administration. Yes, yeah. He's not responsible for everything that happened. He was the prefect, but he's not responsible. quick, this dialogue as well, it's back. Yeah, yeah, yeah, so quick. I mean I just think you have to be good actors to get this right. Yeah. Oh, but it's also Ronty Moore. Do you know what I mean? Like who writes the best dialogue for Deep Sace 9, I think. So now, he's saying things that he has said before. Central Trauma wanted that situation rectified. They didn't care how it was done. I wanted to do it with a softer hand and then in comes Damar. It was a noble, if misguided vision. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's great. Even that is a little bit of a sort of thing. It's like, why is he calling it a misguided vision? Do you know what I mean? Because it didn't turn out or because he doesn't really believe it? He knows himself. I don't think he does. I think this is him discovering it. and accepting it. And I think the really great thing that the show does is it makes Cisco make him realise what he has been like all along. And then he goes off and he's like the villain. you know, Cisco creates this version of Ducant, which I think is such a great show. The great line that Cisco gets is when he smiles and goes, you hated them for it, didn't you? Yeah, yeah, exactly. clinch. the match, isn't it? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He knows that it's going where he wants it to go. Exactly. And oh, and this evidence, we have, or we would go on to see because we see the bombing attempt of him on the station in Wrongstarker than Death and Knight. Oh, okay, that's coming. So again, that's them going, well, we mentioned that. Why don't we put it in? Let's do it. We can put that in. Yeah, yeah, yeah. listen to him. That's justice, not malevolence. Yeah, a counter on. I just murdered 50 people for 50 people. That's fair. No, 200 people. It's even bigger. It's much better. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Well, I'm sure those 200 people didn't mind being collateral damage in the scales. Yeah, that's right. How did they thank me for all of these things? I'm delusional. Yeah. God's sakes. That scene where they're all just behind him where, I don't know where she has to lie sexily on that thing. I mean, I don't think she can lie any other way, is Nanal. No, no, no, no. The others are standing there. Wait, wait, wait, wait. Yeah, yeah, he's just listening at the moment. Dominion would have killed every man, woman, and child on Beijon long ago. It's great, isn't it? Without even breaking, like without even turning around. I hope you're listening to all this. That's great. And his line as well is really good, isn't it? Just like, 0 yeah, no, I'm listening. You're crazy. Oh my god, this is even better commentating on it than it was watching it. Why didn't they appreciate this rare opportunity you were offering them? Oh, Cisco. No, but that's great. And of course, he comes up with the wrong answer. It's because they're inferior. Do you know what I mean? He doesn't go, well, because it was their home and we came along. Do you know what I mean? And start nicking all their stuff and putting them to work. I mean, it's overstated, yeah? But I genuinely think this is our problem today, right? This is what people think about people. They are inferior people. Yeah, 0 yeah. No, that that sort of thing, this sudden. Oh, I see. It's supremacy now. Like it's just sheer racism at this point and that's the problem. That's the underlying problem, is that he just thinks they're inferior because they differ from him in certain metrics. Do you know what I mean? Or whatever. Um, and so it's just pure, he we're the superior race. We didn't choose it. but it was our right and our. It would have been much easier. They just accepted their role as the inferior race. And so his inability to empathise, his inability to see anything from their point of view, and his just this weird complacency that he's better than them and so he can do what he likes to them. Do you know what I mean? And his absolute lack of shame, saying that. He doesn't think that that's something that's embarrassing to that. That they're fighting back is pride rather than just injustice. They're being stubborn. Yeah, that's right. fucking how he really thinks he is the parent and they are the children, doesn't he? Yeah, yeah, exactly. Jesus. Yeah, and that was always, do you know what I mean? Like, that's the other thing, too. That was always kind of there, wasn't it? Because this was the occupation, you know, that the Bajor was someplace that had been occupied by a foreign power, and then that power left. Here we go, Nathan. Yeah, superstitions in their cries for sympathy. Treachery. And their lies, their smug superiority and stiff necked obstinacy. Oh, this is the clincher. their broken wrinkled noses. Stupid latex noses. Oh, no, this is the clincher. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I should have turned their planet into a graveyard, but like the galaxy has never seen. So, yeah. I love you. Sorry, not to do more. I just love him more. I mean, if you want a villain, right? You want lies like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Fucking bananas. Oh boy. I mean, the best thing they ever could have done. was to put him and win together in some twisted romance. People really don't like that. I'm like, are you mad? No. But I think it is what I identified before, that you had characters that were a little bit more subtle and a little bit more grounded, that had real world analogues, but they become just kind of operatic space opera nonsense people. And we love those. Do you know what I mean? Like, that's not a bad thing. And we certainly end up in a good place. But I certainly understand the people who feel that something's been lost in that. scenes where they're in bed together. I mean, it's just repulsive. Now, Avery, we've got to Scott the fans going. We've got a bit of smoke coming your way, all right? and some debris. Please try. Look, they're trying to obscure the backdrop as much as possible. I know, I know, I know. I mean, this is quite a vicious fight as well, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a, you know that things are going bad when his hair comes, the stupid Cardassian hair starts. It's like Janeway's hair. Do you know what I mean? You can tell how serious it is from how disarrayed the hair is. Lameo and Brooks would fight so aggressively together in what you leave behind. He literally breaks a lame o's nose. And he ended up in the hospital. Far out. This is very skin of evil, isn't this? I mean, it's the same set. Look at the backdrop. I know, I know, I know. Renee's like, really, you could have given me any depth at all. Because that affects war already yet? No, all right. We'll go for it. We'll be ready for another 30 years. Now, now is truly, you know, I've got unfinished business on Beijor. Now we're promising portents of doom, aren't we? Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, this is it. This is a super villain origin story where Cisco creates the villain for the end of the show. It's wonderful. Lloyd, from this day on, Bajaw is dead. All of Bajor. Then here we go. It's a scene he's going back onto the shuttle. I can understand, Nathan, if people were a bit unhappy with how unsubtle this is. But then I just love that scene where suddenly they're all there. Like the 3 of them are there. It's wonderful. Wait, wait, the cover comes around and they all look so happy, like I love heads to me. Off we go. Great. Couldn't we have seen them again? every time he shows up from here on in. I'm, you know, hiring anyone new. blunt at the moment when he kills Max, if Kira had been in his ear going, go on, do it, do it. Yeah. Wonderful. I mean, that was just absolutely mad. I love it. That's my sort of operatic trauma. Exactly. That terrific stuff. It is pretty amazing. But it's subtle. And then... But I also don't like this final scene either. No, this is the bit I said that push is too hard. It's just like we've just watched this. It's the usual Star Trek thing. we've just spent 43 minutes watching this and now we're going to explain. And it's going to be Cisco saying, do you know what? I think Guldukat might really be evil. And you kind of just go, oh. If the dialogue crushed hard before, this is really, you know. I fear no evil. No, no, no, no, no. But also, like, you hear me? What the hell is going on with her hair in this? It's weird in this episode, actually. I don't mind a big close-up on Beautiful Wavered Brooks, though you know, with that thing on his head. Never mind. can work around it. I mean, come on, we've just seen Dukat going off with his Phantoms of Doom, you know, like we know he's evil. Yeah, yeah. that's it. We've watched television before. It's the usual Star Trek thing where we can't just let it end. Imagine if it had just ended. you can't heading off into the galaxy. That is so pony to realise that is one thing. To do something is another. So what are you going to do? I'll just hang around until the end of next year and then, you know, like... I'm sure it'll turn up... with a genocidal plan. We'll be ready It's not my end of the season. He's in his dad's restaurant scrubbing potatoes. He's given up. Yeah, he is. That's right. Or clams, isn't he scrubbing clams? I mean, it's kind of weird that they're having this conversation and she's the victim of at the end of the season. you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. She's like, well, what are you going to do? Maybe if he had gone after him, then she'd still be alive at the end of the season. Well, or maybe if he hadn't goaded him. Do you know what I mean? Like maybe if you hadn't goaded him. What if that final scene was about Cisco wondering how complicity was in creating this version of Jacquard? Because he does do that? Like he deliberately needles him until he realises what he's really like. And even though it's not said, he does feel personally responsible when stopping him, like in wily behind, you know. no, I've got to go, I've got to do this. We're into sort of destiny dialogue at that point, you know. But it might have been more interesting if it had been more real if it's just like, I really shouldn't have pushed so far because he lost it and now... you know, ducks, I don't think he knew. Just what bastard he was until I pointed it out to him in that cage. Well, that's it. you know what I mean? Like, maybe that would anyway, like, it's Star Trek. It's always going to kind of overexplain, you know, it's part of the thing. We're just kind of used to it. But, uh, that was, that was super interesting. At the end of TV. If we have to say about that enterprise episode, nothing at all. We didn't stop talking for hours. And, you know, technically there's less happening here, as in, it's a cave, it's 2 people. There was more sets and things going on in that enterprise, but there was just no substance at all. This is a good substance. All character, all of that history from the show coming in and creating drama now. The biggest takeaway from this episode is the more Marco Lamo, the better. He's just wonderful. Absolutely he is. All right, it's the end of the episode and it's time for us to work out where we're going next. Deep Shace 9 was your 1st love, and my 1st love will always be Star Trek the Next Generation, and so we are going to watch an episode of that. Maybe not an episode quite as exciting. No, or as operatic or substantial as what we've just watched. What if it's loud as a whisper. The 1st... story with a little chorus of 3 people, you know, saying what someone thinks. I'm gonna cross my fingers and hope we get a gates or a marina episode. Admittedly, that's only 20 episodes of the 179 episode one. Oh, that's true. But still, I'm hoping. Keep your fingers crossed. Cross them hard. Here goes. Oh, we've done this one. Oh, it's season one, episode 8 justice. Oh, we was together when we did that one. Episode 61. All that time ago. Let's try another one Ooh, season seven, episode six. Phantasms. Oh, it's a fun one. That's the one where it sure is a cake, isn't it? Yeah, a cellular peptide cake with me frosting. I don't really remember what on earth the plot's about. A date is our own funny dreams, isn't he? Um, and beyond the cake, I don't know, isn't it? Is it an emergence that has the funny dreams? Dade has the funny dreams. Oh, was it birthright? Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, it's a lot, right? Okay, let's try another one. Okay. No, let's do another one. Season five, episode 22 imaginary friend. Oh, dismal. I mean, it would be fun to do. It's got some terrible little moppet in it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. an evil moppet as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, a lot of mopper tree. All right, let's try to... Otherwise I will kill them all. She's probably super famous now. Do you know what I mean? Like the way that cursed dumpsters in an episode. Yeah. Okay. We've done this one and it's excellent. Who watches the watches? Oh, one of them. It was episode 141. Superb staff. Angel one we've also done. Oh, I'm tired of Star. a very different sort of a way. Yes, yeah. I mean, superb in a hairy chess sort of a way. Yeah. Oh, Trent. Remember Trent? Fuck off, Trent. Oh, yeah. Okay, so this is season four, episode 10, The Loss. Oh, yeah, well, one, it's a Marina one. is too recent. What is a merit? If you thought she was a bitch and man of the people. Nothing, yeah. This is that one, isn't it? You always go on about. Yeah, maybe he's just sick of you whining about it. I know, oh, no, that was man of the people. That was man of the people. This is kind of like our 1st run at Man of the People. It's not quite as good. Um, you know, in these sort of Troy loses her shit kind of stake but she does lose her shit and it does have some Troy. Oh, no, you know what? Getting them mixed up. It's because this is the one where, you know, she obviously she loses her empathic abilities. And then she has a disastrous counsellor session. And the woman then she they have another session and she goes, no no, no, no. I did precisely the reverse of what you said. You were absolutely wrong, Deanna. There's a massive place. It's like, I can't do this. anymore. I'm having an existential crisis. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And doesn't Riker tell her off for her sort of Bajoran kind of arrogance or aristocratic sort of Bajoran arrogance? And there's some lots of sort of weird techna babble that they're going through this as to why she's lost it as well. It's a quantum filament, a quantum stream or something. Anyway, it gets no, no, I'm bored of it already. I think we've said enough about it. Poor Maria. Oh, it's this one. We're doing this one. Season two. Sounds promising. It's not up the long ladder, is it? It's up the long line, season two. Oh, Begora. Why? Commander, don't you find me attractive? We're doing it. I haven't seen it for like decades. absolutely doing it. 1991 episode dealing with the Irish. What could possibly go wrong? It's 89. It's 1989, but yes, it's not the high ground, which is the one that was banned. Oh, the terrorist one. Yeah, yeah, the terrace one. So this isn't terrorism. It's sort of, you know, redheaded stereotypes and stuff. It's shockingly bad. Yeah, and they've all... They've got like loads of chickens in the cargo bay because obviously they're all... farm folk. Yeah, yeah. It's really, really, really bad. We've got to do these one or 2 ones eventually, though, don't we? So, imagine, I guess they do do stereotypes of other cultures and stuff, but it just seems to me that the British Isles. you know, is particularly victim to it. Do you know what I mean? It's like, I don't know. I don't think we don't deserve it, though, you know. If we went to the English planet, it was just like an Aztar car park with people beating the shit out of each other. We went to the Scottish planet, didn't we? Do you remember? We've been the Scottish player. The Irish fan at this side. Oh, Beverly Crusher. It's so bad. The Scottish planet where they're upset that it's foggy and raining and they don't know what's gone wrong. Genuinely seem to remember, and I'm praying that I'm wrong, that the lead Irish gypsy man in out the long ladder. There's a moment. There's literally a moment where he's sort of drinking alcohol and gets hit on the head and there's like a close-up of him through his sort of boss eyes going, I swear to God, maybe I'm making that up. But it's every stereotype you could possibly imagine. I mean, I can't think why we wouldn't do it. No, we have to. Absolutely. brilliant. Abandoned hope. Oh, he, Uyensa here. To be sure, to be sure, to be sure. Very short, to be sure. You've been listening to entitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford and Nathan Bottomley. We're online at untitled Star Trek project.com, where you can find subscription links and links to our social media accounts. Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceran, and the theme was composed by Cameron Lamb. This episode was recorded on the 18th of November 2025 and released on the 21st of November. We'll see you next time for Star Trek, the Next Generation, up the long ladder. How long have you got to your holiday? Three weeks. Yeah. Discovery's quite far behind too. So it's NextGen Prodigy Voyager Discovery, Enterprise Picard. I mean, there's more of next gen, isn't there? But that doesn't matter, remember. That doesn't matter. If we do an X-Gen, it will only bump it up slightly because there's more of NextGen, so each one represents. like we've done loads. I just don't understand that. Yeah. How it's always so low. 31. So if you go by number of episodes, we've done 35 Deep Space 9s, 31 Next Generation, 31 Voyager, 18 Enterprises, 17 original series. So with those numbers, 3 Star Trek movies or the animated series. But, but you want to try and keep the percentages the same. Otherwise, what ends up happening is we... Voyager season one and two. No, enterprise season one and 2 podcasts. Please, no. Sometime in 2038. From my retirement home. Well, surprise me. Okay. Well, I need jammer, though, is the question. Get him up just in case. Oh, okay. I know where you're going then. enterprise. Oh, I will need him here. No, no, no. All right, it's the end of the episode.