Cogenitor

Hey, Joe. Hi. So, we are now doing our second enterprise episode, and in our 1st episode, Strange New World, I think we were a bit negative. Yeah, yeah. But we decided to go for it again because we really wanted an episode that kind of showcases, enterprises, strengths. How do you feel about this episode generally, do you think? Well, can, is it congenital or congenital? cogenitor. Yeah, co-genitor. You did that so well. I thought this was way better. Strange New Worlds. It provided you and me with a lot of talking points. We've already discussed this quite a bit. Whereas, you know, there was so little of substance to Strange New World. We couldn't even find anything to talk about whilst we were watching it. No. What's really interesting about cogenitories. I think this is the point where enterprise starts to tip in the other direction, quality wise, because this is followed up with, so the rest of the season. Yeah, uh, we're, it's what, season 2, episode 22. Yeah. I'm doing your bit now, sorry. But what comes next is Regeneration, which is a Borg episode, which is very strong. First flight, which explains a lot about Archer's past, and that's a really strong episode. There's bouncy, which is a bit... crap, if I'm modest, and then it's the expanse, which I've watched this week, and it's very much a bit of a jarring, like hard reboot for the series, but definitely like tips it in a very dramatic direction. So I watched the expanse, I watched the 1st 2 episodes of season 3 and it's definitely the show turning a corner in a positive way and suddenly becoming TV that's actually genuinely worth turning up for. Uh, I watched the Zindi and anomaly, and anomaly is just a very very good episode of Star Trek. And during season three, I know there's a there's a 3 parter towards the end of series 3, which I remembered as I was watching anomaly, which features the Enterprise literally being blasted to buggery and them limping through this region of space, the Delphic expanse, basically coming apart of the seams and, you know completely, um, like it looks like it's all over, you know? It's really fantastic TV. And it's not the sort of thing you would expect Enterprise to deliver after the Yawnathon that is seasons one and two. And I think this is the point where they realised enterprise needed to have something to say in order to be good TV. And they do it in this. I'm not sure what they say in this is worth hearing because it's a bit troubling, as I'm sure you're going to talk about later on. But when they hit the expanse, they're absolutely doing a 911 analogy. Yeah. And they are exploring the sort of the morally gray areas of reacting to that in season three. And so suddenly Enterprise is it's working on a different level than before. It's not just kind of vanilla Star Trek. It is saying something. that's a good thing. Yeah, no, and that's what we think the best of Star Trek does. I mean, you know, we forget that there's all sorts of terrible nonsense in there as well and space things and all of that. We love that as well. Well, of course we do. That's why we're here. But it also has things to say, and that's one of the things that we love about it. Here. I'm pretty certain the things that it has to say are really true. And I will get quite cross about it later, I think. This episode is written by Berman and Braga, isn't it? So this is, and, you know, and like I said, they wrote so much of the 1st 2 series. They also wrote stigma this season, which is the HIV AIDS story which they were asked to do. It shows you how much they were willing to do something like that. They were actually asked to do that. It wasn't anything they wanted to do. And the things they have to say about that, and I'm speaking as somebody whose ex-partner had HIV, I find it truly insulting. And there's a line at the end of this about a baby not being born which I think you're going to talk about. I mean, there's some there's some troubling opinions. embedded into Star Trek at this point, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. I think it is complex. Like, I think that the what the episode actually lands on is a problem, but it does at least properly present both ideas, you know, and it gives us perhaps the most sympathetic character to explore of the kind of idea that oppression needs to be remedied and and that it's not okay just because it's another culture or whatever. It's not okay to just sit back and you know, do nothing. It's a world away from the trip of strange new world. Yeah, isn't it? Horrible, angry, racist trip from a strange new world. What is strange you won't have to say anyway? Are the rock monsters of this away mission real or not? You know, like... Well, I mean, we talked about that, but yes, essentially it's just a procedural and it doesn't have a very interesting problem to solve. But also, very quickly before we jump in. Very, very quickly. Because I know I can see you on your face now, and that's what you were just about to say. Should we jump into the episode? I just want to very quickly talk about Archer. Now we'll talk about him within the episode itself. But I want to talk about what an incredible shithead that character is. Wherever you're watching in the show, I think it's the biggest sticking point of enterprise, that he is a nasty bit of work Archer. And it's very surprising to see somebody this unlikeable, um spearheading a Star Trek show. Now, within this episode, he has a lot of moments where I know you struggled with him. But then we hit the expanse and suddenly he's angry archer going after the people that set this weapon off and murders 7000000 people. And suddenly he's shoving people into airlocks and sucking them out into space and he's in this whole sort of like morally greyer which one, you know, I've seen them touch upon with Janeway and Cisco before, but it goes way further than you ever went with Cisco and Janeway. He's actively violent and unpleasant. And I remember in season 4, when they come back to earth in, it's called home, the episode, he goes up into the mountains and actually has a good long think about who the hell he is and what he's become. And the character is a lot better kind of after that. But really, He's a douchebag, isn't he? Oh, we'll get there. We'll definitely get there. All right, let's get started. I'll count us in. I'm on the 1st frame. 5, 4, 3, 2, one, and we're off. We are off. That's a beautiful shot. And there are some, there's some nice direction in this. LeVar Burton is directing this episode. And as I said to you moments before we press record, I think his strengths are absolutely in directing character episodes rather than action. So this is his wheelhouse, for sure. So here is Tripp making some horrible banter with Tapol, which is still uncomfortable, but not as nasty as last time. There's kind of like knowing looks now, isn't it? raised eyebrows and it's a little less overtly racist and a little more it feels a bit more like banter. Yeah, yeah. I'd still found it just a little bit unpleasantly uncomfortable but it is the only thing in the episode about Tripp's performance that I dislike. I think he's magnificent in this, like really properly good. He's really sensitive in this, isn't he, Connor Trinit? and really sort of going forward from this point. Even when they try and make him angry because his sister dies in that terrorist attack. And they try and make him like this properly angry. But Conor Trinier is just so charming that he's still he's still quite likeable. What's that guy's name again? Travis. So Travis and Hoshi get nothing to do, Mayweather. Ah, goddamn it. You got it right, right? All right, so here we have Drenik, Captain Drenik, from the Visians, and he is Star Trek, um, sort of stalwart Andreas Katsulas, who played Tomalok in several episodes of Star Trek, The Next Generation. And he's in something called Babylon 5, which I've never heard of. He is the best thing about Babylon 5. The characters of Jakal Londo in, and it's the alien characters again. It's the Big Space 9 effect. It's the aliens characters that are the most interesting ones. Um, he's, he gives an incredibly subtle, incredibly nuanced performance in Babylon 5. And I don't often say nice things about that show, but he's very very good. Yeah. Well, he was always great in Star Trek. I think he's in 3 as a as a Romulan, as sort of very rare recurring character, and I think he's... Oh, here we go. Here we go. I love this road. Now my time is finally here. Just in case people can't, you know, obviously they can't hear this. So I'll just sing it for them. So I want to say, so I was super angry about this horrific colonialist, you know, great man, great white man of history, title sequence. You were pretty quiet about that, you know, last time. But I actually think that you can see where, you know, there are elements here that recur in the discovery titles, which I think are magnificent, but the idea that you have plans and blueprints and things like that. So you've got this archival footage, but there's these elements of sort of mostly maps, but also blueprints of flying machines and things like that. And I think that's really good and I love the discovery titles. So, you know, and they're trying something different. I just think having enterprise go past nebulas or something. They couldn't really do that again. And this is at least telling a story. What prodigy did, which was so interesting, I thought. It was, it let, and so the 2 things I love, you know, it was, um the ship's stately going through beautiful things, the Voyager effect, but also, as you pointed out to me, it's leaning to all of their characters as well. So it's saying something about all of their characters and I thought that was a really interesting approach. This, it's okay. I don't think it's ever going to be my favourite, especially because of that bloody song. I love the song. So you mentioned the lighting. So we actually have what looks like sunlight coming through the window and obviously that's what we do in discovery all the time but it isn't something that was done in 90s track. Well, I'm going to name 2 other episodes, right? Wrong starter than Deaf and Knight from DS9, which is set in during the occupation back when the station was orbiting Bajor. And it's even more striking than this because they used like a really strong light on the characters. So a lot of people are in silhouette in the sun. And also Voyager's survival instinct, which is the one episode that Ronald D.Moro for which are in series 6 and that's set in orbit of a planet. And every time they do it, it looks so good just like this. Yeah. Well, David Carson does it in generations and that team 10 forward looks amazing. So these 2 women, they're going for jobs as Fox News hosts, I think. We have these 2 extremely blonde women. They are sexually voracious as well. Honestly. You know, there is something about this that I actually like, and it's something that is to do with the premise of the show, which is this is the 1st ship that goes to explore. And this sort of thing where they're just discovering each other's culture, which looks like the B plot. I think it has an important function in the episode, but I also just think it gives so much texture. This is something that's different. You could sort of do the same thing with, say, uh, next generation. But the fact that these are the 1st people, I think, is really interesting. I, I quite like the fact that it's, it's an alien race similar but dissimilar to us. So like they're a humanoid, there's a little bit of latex there blah, blah, blah. The latex looks fucking stupid, by the way. It looks outrageous. It does. Well, yes. Ridiculous. But you've got this... They were trying us. They were trying us. You have a very, very pretty man there in the Visian chief engineer and he just looks absurd. All right. This scene. So Tucker has found Tucker. I keep calling him Tucker. No, he is Trip Tucker. Yeah. Trip. Tripp has encountered the cogenitor who is just a very quiet, sort of, I guess, we would say non-binary person. But, and now he's going to flocks to talk about it. And initially, he seems to be just a little bit confused and confronted by this kind of arrangement, that there are 3 genders or 3 sexes, rather. And the terminology is confused. We're a little bit more clear on the terminology than they were 20 years ago. Well, he's determined, it is a woman, isn't it? He goes. She seems she seems like a woman. Yeah, yeah. But, yeah, yeah. So he's he's having difficulty doing it. What I love his flocks offers not only to explain how the Visians have sex, but he was about to show him a video. I've got pictures. Just goes, no, actually, I'll be fine. Isn't it wonderful? But he then says, look, you're our head to meet other species. Don't be so judgemental. Like, learn about this. Yeah, and he absolutely does that. And when he comes back to flocks to talk about it later. He has no problem with the fact that it's that race isn't sexually dimorphic or whatever. All right, now we're in this... So I think with flocks, you know, because I said to you before where they have the comedy polygamous plot line, um, in, I think that is bounty that's coming up, actually. that he, you know, he goes, you know, did you enjoy my wife because, you know, he's got several wives and husbands. So there is a voice. Between Bragger and Burman that is willing to to speak on behalf of, you know, differences. So that's why I find it even more troubling that they reach conclusions sometimes, which are a bit black and white. Well, I mean, the thing is that the 2 alien characters on the 2 alien characters, crew members on Enterprise, both express the view that trip shouldn't get involved. This scene here. There's a moment here, right? So we're in here with Drenik, I want to call him, and with Andreas and Archer. And the Vician says that he's read all of Shakespeare and Sophocles, can you recommend something else? And because they don't want Archer to seem unrelatable, he just says, oh, I reckon you could find the classics all by yourself. And you, you know that Picard would have said, oh, you know, read I don't know, Jane Austen or something, but they don't want, they don't want Archer to exhibit any book learning, you know. Cisco would have been like, I've got these baseball matches that you can watch. There you go. Have a look at that. This guy here, F.J. Rio, his name is. I can't remember what the character's name is. I'm terrible with like one shot character. He's just called chief engineer. He doesn't get it. He's very good in this, I think, because he's called a con to be quite angry later on. But actually, it's quite, it's quite a subtle performance. doesn't really kind of lose it. He's been in Star Trek a couple of times before. And he played a semi-regular across series 4 and 5 of DS9. He was in Starship Down, Hard Time, and then he dies in the ship. I don't remember if you remember that one. It's the crash Jem'Hadar shit. Yeah, yeah. He gets shot and the whole, there's like a running character storyline of O'Brien trying to staunch the bleeding and he's getting worse. And as the situation's getting more claustrophobic. And the point where they all lose their shit with each other is the point where he actually dies. Right. And it's really, really affected. And it's effective because he's a likeable character and a good actor. Well, I mean, he's likeable here. He's pretty as well, but he's... Fucking ratex is so bad. You have to get used to it, you know. watching a lot of 90s trek. They still do it a bit in discovery anyway. part of the deal. But here he is, you know, like his absolutely charming trip is charming. He's trying to keep an open mind. He's been asking maybe some intrusive personal questions. Not quite, not quite like in the outcast where um, Soren asks Riker to describe his genital organs. Do you remember that? Yeah. Right, yeah. Normally he'd just be right in for it. I don't know why he doesn't do it. In fact, you know what? You make a really good point there that the outcast and what's the other one where they delved into issues. Oh, rejoin. No, no, rejoice the DS9 one. You're talking about the, if it's the true one, isn't it? where Beverly Crusher basically says at the end. Yeah, yeah. Humanity is not ready for bisexuality. what she says in the final scene. That just goes to show how far we've come, though, between then and this because this, like you say, at least offers both points of view. Yeah, but I think that it isn't, this isn't about Tripp's initial discomfort with, or, yeah, he has slight discomfort with this sort of, um, the sort of sexual, I don't know, the way that these people have sex or the way these people conceive children having a 3rd gender. And but he's over it. He's over it now. He's asked the engineer some questions. He smiled and said, I'm keeping an open mind. So what you think this is more about fighting the oppression of this gender. Yeah, that's right. And so he's already concerned that she, you know, can't read. She's not allowed to read. And one of the things in the Handmaid's tale is that Offred isn't permitted to read either. And so she has to spend a lot of time in a room doing nothing because reading's illegal. And the Handmaid's Tale is just American slavery, but for white women. And so in the 18th and 19th centuries, a lot of southern states passed literacy laws that made it illegal for black people to be taught to read. And so... If you can see the look on my face right now... Absolute astonishment. Yeah. So, um, this thing about preventing her from reading is a real proper signifier that she is enslaved and oppressed. So what is, is it that, what, if they have knowledge? Yeah, exactly. They could learn, you know, there's a better life than this and there's more to life than, you know. Well, I mean, what is she? She's essentially like an incubator for children. That's what the... She provides an enzyme, but fortunately, fortunately, flux doesn't tell us how. Oh, I'm sorry. Okay, this whole city. Now, you and I, we talked about this. The cheese seduction scene. You quite like this, didn't you? Well, yeah, I kind of did. I, you know, it's, oh, God, I was going to say cheesy, but it is cheesy as hell. In the sense that, you know, they're putting food into each other's mouths and she kind of touches his lip and all of that and all of that seems like completely inappropriate in a, you know, but and, and it's, it's absolutely running out the clock, you know it's running out the clock. But I do like the very simple idea that pungent smells mean more to them than the taste of food. It's kind of simple and it's just a little bit off centre from what we're used to. But it's kind of enough to make this species a little bit unique because they do some jokes with it as well. Like when Trip goes to dinner and he smells the food and it's like oh, God. And then he tries it. Well, that's pretty mild compared to what I'm thinking it was going taste like. But that as well is not a cultural difference. It's a cultural difference in a biological difference, I guess, but it's something that they can bond over and that they there's something about this relationship. And this relationship has to be built up is important because it's destroyed at the end by trip's actions. Yeah. And so these people are getting on really, really well, they're absolutely bonding. Um, And the same with Drenik and Archer in that little ship and um trip and the chief engineer, and they're talking about sharing technology that we know that they won't get because we know the future history, you know, um, these people are vastly more advanced. I do nothing, though. you like it when they meet these species, but are just like, hello, and we want, we want to, you know, come and see you. We want to give you this. And there's no real tension. And it's really hard to play like super nice characters that are interesting. And they managed, they all achieve it here. Yeah, yeah. Because there's no conflict, there's no tension. They're not behaving in a particularly, you know, horrible way towards them. The only thing that's providing the tension is an element of this culture that's different from ours. Yeah, yeah, that's right. Yeah, see, look, he's offering the chief engineer, the Visian chief engineer is offering to share their warp technology, which is vastly advanced compared to what is on enterprise. And so this is going to be a really good productive relationship and we're rooting for it, I think, because it's fun to watch it happen. I think, um, and Andreas Katsulas is particular. Yeah, he's particularly good in this because his character is so amiable. And that could have been it could have been really boring, you know? But he's charming as hell, I think. Yeah. And he's always been, sorry, what you said there about the technology. Actually, it does come in because like I said, I watch the expanse and they talk about photon torpedoes in this. And they've got photon torpedoes come the expanse ready to go into there. So I think they must give them blueprints or something like that which they use. Yeah. It's funny, isn't it? Because they don't have photon torpedoes and he mentions them and they have been mentioned before, I think, in France. There's a there's a time travel episode when they come out of the Delphic expanse called Storm from. And I think, oh, yeah, a lot of stuff gets wiped away then, quite conveniently. Right. I absolutely hate these 2 now. Colour, the wife and the chief engineer. I just think they're absolutely smug and disgusting. And I think the fact that they're dressed in white. I just, like, it's awake. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I do like the fact that they're kind of presented as in this is all normal, you know? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. They're not presented like specifically unlikably, are they? They're just a bit arrogant and like this is our culture and, you know. Yeah. But I mean, it's like 3% of the population are essentially enslaved so that we can have procreative heterosexual intercourse. And I hate those 2 smug people. And particularly the wife. I just think I just think they're awful at this point. And that's a point that the episode doesn't properly make, and we'll get there, but I think that that's the problem here, that there's a real failure to acknowledge what's going on in this society and to just hand wave it away saying it's not our business you know. Yeah, well, we've talked about that as well, haven't we? That kind of arrogant tripping around the universe and not making a difference when you could. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I mean, this is a very advanced race. The prime directive, which doesn't yet exist in 2153. But I think they are playing the show as if there is some kind of directive in place that says they cannot specifically involve themselves in like the cultural affairs of other people because they talk about it in this. Yeah, yeah, but I mean, this is a warp capable species that's technologically advanced. There's no kind of colonialism happening here from the humans. You know, they're not seeking to sort of subjugate or influence or colonise, uh, you know, a race that has less sophisticated technology or isn't aware of the galaxy around them. But you know, I think that um, the Federation, Starfleet Command whatever. is a bit more problematic than they would like to think. And if the option was to have these technological blueprints, but you've got to turn a blind eye to the slavery, they'd be like, well give us the blueprints then. We didn't see nothing. That's exactly it. How about would we have to go? Because my history is pretty terrible for slavery within a household and a very conservative couple like this, like in reality. So the 19th century, 19th century. appalling, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. Wow. Yeah, it's abolished earlier in England, but it's still going in America after that. So, and again, so this is the scene where he's teaching her to read, right? And we've already established. He went to dinner with the horrible couple in order to scan her, to do a neural scan on her, to take it back to flocks, so that flocks could determine that she wasn't not taught to read because she's incapable of it, and that she is as smart as them. And remember, Andreas read all of Shakespeare and Sophocles overnight. So she's incredibly smart. Okay, much smarter than them. I don't wonder, you know, if they couldn't have, oh, maybe this is me being a bit out of line, if they couldn't have made that character a little more androgynous. I think that, that she does look female. Yeah, I mean, they do try and make her as androgynous as possible but yeah, yeah. I think it's a bit of a shame that Tucker defaults to she, her pronouns, but, you know, that's better than it anyway, in any case. I just don't think... I just think like it would play more interestingly because to me it kind of feels like a male female relationship in how it looks. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, you know, like it's not really romantic. Is it? No, no, no. It's like a very charming friendship. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's not like Soren and Riker who eventually kind of bone or whatever. This is different from that, I think. Oh, I need to. I need to just say there's an awful lot, I'll take that back with these scenes. A lot, you know. I was zoning out a lot during these scenes. Except that there is a character thing and it has something to do with the main plot. So I think it's important for the plot that we want this relationship to succeed. Yeah. That's a bit of a cartoon that shot. And he says as well, doesn't he? When kind of the shit hits the fan and trip goes too far and the congenitor asks for asylum. Yeah, Andreas, whose name, whose character name I've forgotten again. Drenik, I think. Drenik says, you know, we've developed more of a friendship and a relationship in a couple of days than some people do in a lifetime like let's not ruin this over this, over this little thing, you know? Yeah. He's still being genial and friendly. Even the fact that it's got to the point where the cogenitor has asked for asylum, he still isn't pulling out of the relationship. And it is only after the sort of terrible tragic ending, which is in no way Tripp's fault. that they pull the plug on it. And so these are the stakes. These scenes aren't filler. They're presenting the stakes. And I think they work because Drenik is, as you said, charming and amiable. He's really great. And it is nice. isn't it? For once, species has come along that just isn't firing phases at all, whatever at them straight away. You know, that's quite refreshing. Oh, this bit here. It's a very similar scene, you know, between O'Brien and a Cardassian in DS9 where they get this tube and she's just like, I'm going to have you. And actually, there's a scene between 7 and Harry, isn't there where she's like, you can remove your clothes now. you know. And he's so unused to women being this forceful with him. Harry basically pees his pants in the Jeffrey Zoom. It's really funny. Someone's so pretty, you would think they'd be lining up. Yeah, I actually really quite like this. And again, it's not really filler. I think. Oh, it's not really fun. Thor log again, though. Oh, I wish you were like, oh, usually you ask people for dinner you know, then you shag. And she goes, well, in our society, we shag and then decide whether you're worthy of dinner. That's right. So exciting. But again, it's that sort of cute cross-cultural thing. It's rather sweet. I mean, they're boning now while this conversation between Tripp and the cojenitor is happening, I suppose. Um, There is absolutely. There's a weird, there's a weird, um, contradiction here, though because I feel like the episode ultimately criticises what Tripp's doing, and yet it seems to play out in such a lovely way that you absolutely, you can't do anything, but be on board with what he's doing. I mean, the thing is right, that her, she starts to smile, like here, in a way that lights up the room, she's really happy that she's learning to read and at the prospect of doing something other than just sitting in a series of rooms like a handmaid. Remember Handmaid's Tale is about the fact that, you know, um, that women who are uh, fertile are very rare. And so they're an adjunct to the sexual relationship between, you know, married couples who want to have children. So there's very, very definite handmade tale stuff going on here. But are we supposed to endorse this? Or are we supposed to reject it? Because clearly, that's what's interesting about this is, is it's kind of given you both options. And you decide. I don't think it is. I think it comes down very, very heavily on the side that it's Troop's fault and there would have been some simple ways of mitigating that and we'll get to it. Yeah, that's a shame. a shame. Yeah, I think it's a real proper problem. And it's kind of like, well, we'll continue trading with Saudi Arabia because we need the oil and it doesn't matter how they oppress their women or whatever. You know, like... That federation. I don't care you know. That's right. Well, we don't have the Federation quite yet. That'll be in about 8 years time. The very fact that he says later on, you know, like, let's not fall out over this little thing and he's talking about oppressing people. Yeah, yeah. Well, no, when he says this little thing, he means trip taking the cogenitor on board and teaching her to read and showing her movies. That's the little thing. It's not the little thing is, let's not fall out over the fact that we keep 3% of our population in slavery. You know. These sequences now, yeah, where he's showing her around the ship. There's a subtle suspense to these scenes that I found absolutely gripping. Because basically all he's doing is what we see every other week is someone coming to the ship and walking around it. But there's a wrongness to it and you know you absolutely should not be doing this. No. I think there's a shame too, because they actually, there's a scene that they just decide not to do, which is obviously the scene, where we get the news or where he's found out or whatever. We don't get that. We just go straight to Tucker being chewed out by Archer. And I think that's a shame. I think they kind of pump on that and they punt on another development later as well, I think. There's 2 criticisms that we made in Strange New World, which I want to address here, because I think they have made massive strides. One is just how visually dull it was. Strangely world. And just how unambitious the visuals were. Whereas I feel like there's a lot of effect sequences here, you know, they're trying to make it look as fun and as engaging as they possibly can. The other thing is just how bloody dreary a lot of these sets are. Well, I'll tell you now, I watch Regeneration. I watched the expanse and I watched anomaly and they find a way of shooting those sets in a really dynamic way. There's some action in anomaly. There's a 5 minute action sequence in engineering and the corridors where cameras are swooping through those. like a drone or something and they absolutely make it work. I, I, I like this engineering set. So this is, you know, the horizontal warp core like they have on um, original series. But just the thing they're trying to sell it as a submarine. And I think, you know, I'm growing to like the sets a bit more. The problem is that gun metal gray everywhere. Gray. Yeah, along with those boring plumbers outfits. It's just all very montane looking. Is it? But there's always one thing I realised, though, watching kind of like a couple of enterprise episodes and, you know, good enterprise episodes. I realised my big problem with this show is I just don't care about these characters in the way I do Voyager, DS9, next generation. They're just not as likeable and they're just not as engaging. And for me, that is a problem. Just 12nd. trip, put the movie on full screen, you bastard. What's wrong with you? We have the technology. And now look at this. She's playing go. She's beating him at go and go is a much, much more complicated game than chess. Like she's already learned go in a day. So this is a woman who could a woman. This is a person who could do anything. Yeah, it's an actress though, isn't it? He's an actress. yeah. But who could do anything and she's just sitting in a room all day. She eats and sleeps sometimes. And look how animated she is. Yeah. Well, I think I think the feeling you get from all of these scenes is there's just enormous potential for this person to grow, you know. And so there's no way that this is, that's what, sorry, that's what's annoying about the ending is Archer basically says no. You know? We're not going to let you grow. We're gonna maintain this relationship when you're going back to your people. Well, I don't think I think the relationship's broken. I think, um, but we don't see it, which is a problem, but we're told that the captain, that Drenik is furious when he calls them. And so I think the relationship is called off at that point. And so this is the problem, that all of the toys and the technological advances and the cheese and the boning all stop because of what Tripp has done. But how could the Federation maintain an amicable relationship with a society? How have they kept 3? You know, now that they know, how are they doing? Yeah, yeah. So remember the trade in Voyager? Who are they? So they were a bunch of white people who, um, they initially liked. Yeah, and that they have caused the case on factions and stuff. And initially they're lovely and we can get on and we can have an alliance and stuff. And then Janeway discovers that they've oppressed the Kazon and then it's off, right? So having Drenik break the relationship off and not Archer, I think, is a problem as well. Well, do you know what? Actually, alliances, that the episode that the trade were in, I would say it's nowhere near as subtly done as this. very kind of comic book. But you know what? It's a lot more fun to watch. It's got a fabulous sequence at the end when occasion ship comes down or the tradeship comes down and tries to assassinate everybody and this piece comes from. I mean it's amazing. But also as well, I really like it when they box the captain into a corner where they've got to make a tough choice or make, you know, one of 2 choices and neither of them are a good choice. But you want them to make the better choice. Yeah. And no one more often than not, they do, you know. And I don't think that happens here. Obviously, we're not there yet. But like it's like in, um, do you remember Chuvic's? And I think that is a much better episode than people give it credit for. And Janeway's got to make, you know, he's basically saying, please don't kill me. I'm a person. Now I'm a unique person. And she literally walks him through. Just forcibly drags him to the, yeah. Yeah, like at gunpoint. you know. And he's like, you know, are you all going to stand there while she commits murder and he's crying and it's really, it's probably traumatic. Um, I mean, this is a bit more subtle than that as well. Maybe boy just... Yeah, yeah, maybe voyage is more of a cartoon than this. But that's not a criticism. So this, this is the 1st of 2 scenes where Archer choose, um choose trip out. And they're both super uncomfortable to watch. Um, and, you know, Scott Bacular is one of the most charming and genial actors you can possibly imagine. So I just don't understand why he's being such a prick here. Like the writing is so troubling, even bacular, can't salvage the character. I think he makes an acting choice a little bit later, which is attempting to remedy a script efficiency. But it's very subtle and I could just be imagining it, but I'll talk about it. I mean, at least in anomaly that I watched, you know, he's supposed to be being an asshole. Like, like he's angry and he's reacting against the situation. Like in a strange new world and in this, like we said in Strange New Worlds, I think our sympathy is kind of supposed to be with him. Yeah, yeah. So this like, did she ask you to teach her how to read? It's kind of like he is yelling at her, for teaching someone to read, someone who is intelligent, who could benefit from it, who is forbidden, for no reason, uh, to read, uh, a feature of slavery in America in the last, you know, few centuries at this point. You know, like, I think it's bad. I think it's a bad law. It is, but it does expose that, you know, the whole thing about Star Trek is to go out, seek out new civilisations, you know Boldigo, where no man has gone before, and they've boxed him into a situation here where the nature of doing that and and learning from that species means that you you have to turn a blind eye to something. sacrifice your morals, basically. Yeah. Yeah. And so she's asking to stay. And, like, why, why does he give her back? Why does he give Charles? Charles now even in the even in the subtitles I'm watching, which I just think is fantastic. I like how they've seen his play now. I know I know you're not keen on these 2 characters, these 2 imperial characters. I like to be unlikeable. Well, it's not hysterical though, is it? It would have been very easy to play all this, you know, at a hysterical level. And yet it's all just, it's just like intelligent conversation. I quite like that. Yeah, I think, but I think too, it's kind of like, oh, well, you know, we have to enslave this person because we want to have children. You know, like I just think it's gross and she is so awful. Yeah, my goodness. The performance is great and they found someone with the most... The weirdest looking eyes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, plus the latest, doesn't she? I mean, she's such a fucking Karen. Like, she's such an entitled white lady. It's so bad. It's terrible. Oh, damn, a pair of them, honestly. Yeah, and I don't understand why Archer gives Charles back to them. I just don't understand it. You know, she's asked for asylum. She is oppressed. You know, she, they don't fear reprisals. Like Andreas isn't going to come after them with a gunship and kill them. So what's the point? You know, like we want to maintain the relationship with this incredibly toxic society? I said to you, didn't I? Picard, Kirk, Cisco, Janeway, they would have found a way, you know? And I, you know, you could point out loads of Star Trek episodes where people ask for asylum and they find a way. They find a way of resolving those stories unproblematic. Yeah. Do you remember, what's his name? Tosk in very early where he requests asylum and then O'Brien then releases him out of the prison so he can continue like the hum. And then Cisco, Cisco says at the end, you know, you've you've destroyed a relationship with these people. How dare you, you know, get out of my office. And then on the way out, he's like, um, O'Brien goes, well, how is it that you you didn't manage to stop us? Because I figured that as soon as you realised what I was doing, he was going, yeah, I guess that one got us by, didn't it? You know, and it's like, it's an acknowledgement that they did the right thing. Yeah. Yeah. So, look, this is sort of super genial, even though we've had, you know, like an incident and stuff. He's still super happy. Drenik is still happy to continue the relationship. Do you remember in, um, sorry, I've gone a bit everywhere else in this Star Trek apart from this episode, but it's an interesting parallel. In TNG season one, where I said they were, you know, off around the universe, civilising societies and turning a blind eye weather down. Well, they're basically these people, aren't they? This alien race. They can take a good look archer. This is what this is what the Federation is going to become, like this arrogant race. Oh here's the dog. Yeah. Well, he's very cute, the dog, though. But why is he sitting there with a fucking ball? Like an water polo ball on his stomach while he reads a ball? an all American hero. That's why. That's right. It's a lot too bookish. Yeah, he's got a book and a ball. He appears too intelligent, you know. And so we've now had the message, but we don't, again, don't get to see it and we don't get to see Drenik's reaction or anything like this. So this is the 2nd time that he gets chewed out. And why does the cogenitor kill herself? And the answer is, because Archer refused to grant her asylum and she was aware that the slavery that she was going to live under for the rest of her life was not all that she was capable of. And so Archer and the Vicians are responsible for the suicide. And we don't get a hint of that from Archer at all. Archer doesn't say, I understand. Archer doesn't say the conditions that the congenitor was forced to live underwear intolerable. He's just kind of there, another culture, and now I don't get to play with their toys anymore. And I think it's disgusting. I think it's so bad. And the episode itself, all the criticism is pointed at Tripp. Yeah. Archer doesn't even acknowledge what, you know, what trip was doing or that that was a competing and and, you know, possible ethical position to come to doesn't acknowledge it at all. doesn't say, I understand why you did this, but it was wrong. You know, like none of that. He just choose him out. You thought you were doing the right thing and now someone's dead. And that horrible fucking couple's child will never be born. That's the line, isn't it? That is the line. Yeah, we've got moral obligations to people who don't even exist. Like, what is going on over people that do? Yes, that's right. That's right. The cogenitor, Charles has to sacrifice her freedom for the sake of this child that doesn't exist yet. I do, all of that, I acknowledge. I do really like this scene now. I don't like what it's saying. But I do like, I like the scene because when I watched it afterwards, I felt deeply uncomfortable about the episode and I do like it when TV pushes me in an area where I'm feeling a bit disconfident. But also it really made me think about everything that had played out and I'm like, well, who's right here? Who's right? And, you know, like we, and we had some discussion back and forth. And that's good Star Trek. Yeah, yeah. But also I do think that the politics of Voyager and Enterprise are not really the utopian kind of, you know, the socialist utopia of of Gene Roddenbury's Star Trek. I think it is much more conservative. And this becomes an analogue for America, I think. You know, I mean, our fleet's always that. The Federation's always America, really. But here there's a sort of deeply uncomfortable unwillingness to do anything about human rights in other countries that's being expressed here in a sort of Star Trek way. I think the shittiest line there, like the worst line is about the unborn child. That is just, I was just like, oh, no, really like that's your argument. It's not just unborn. It unconceived. Like there's no child. It's just an idea at this point, you know. See, I was I was reading like anti-abortion things into that and that just made me feel super uncomfortable because I'm like, okay these are the these are the people that have created this show, you know? Yeah. And it's, it's, like, should Star Trek ever be, um, you know creative and written in such a conservative way. I don't think so. No. And I think increasingly, in the late 90s version of Star Trek like in the late Berman era. I think that the politics do get more and more conservative. And like you were talking about, you know, we're responding to 9 11, and so it's okay for Archer to push people out of airlocks, you know, that sort of behaviour is justified because of 9-11. And given what happened after 911 and Abu Ghraib and all of those things. You know, it's a deeply problematic position to stake out and I don't really like it. But like also, Brannan Bragger had a big hand in latter-day TNG and in a lot of Voyager as well. And I don't think Voyages as conservative as this. I think it's a bit isolationist. I don't think it's deliberately conservative, but it's set in an area where basically aliens are out to get you. And so it doesn't have that internationalist sort of viewpoint that discovery or next generation has. Whereas I think enterprise is far more Burman's, maybe. And this is this is the show he had the biggest creative hand in. I don't think he wrote a script for DSI and Voyager, whereas he's he's got a hand in writing probably about half the scripts of Enterprise, you know. This is his voice. Yeah, yeah. Well, and also Berman and Bragger remove themselves very much. I think Bragger's got a slight, he's like reading over scripts and things like this in season four, but essentially they have phoned out the series at that point. And that's the point where the show starts embracing a lot of the Star Trek idea, starts taking on more of a TOS feel. And it's probably the show at its absolute best. And probably as Bragg assess himself, an interview that I read this week, where the show should have started. All right, it's time for us to choose our episode for next week and I'm the one with my finger on the button today. I'm at Untitled Star Trek project.com slash Randomiser. I mean, you say episode. We've just had a slight discussion here and I question whether we are going to be watching an episode. of something. More like a little vignette. Yeah, yeah. So what we're going to do is we're going to choose a random short track. I really like the short tracks. I think probably this is going to end up being a shorter podcast episode, but who knows what will happen? And I think some of them are really clever. I think some of them are funny and some of them, yeah, some of them are beautiful. So that's what we're going to go with. Job knows nothing of these. Oh, you know, 10 minutes, 15 minutes sometimes. Wow, we're going to say... You had to talk very quickly about them, then, aren't we? Well, we'll debrief. We'll talk about it going in and then debrief. But I do think that they are an important feature of modern trek that they have allowed trek the space to experiment a bit, and they have actually introduced plot elements that have made their way into discovery. So I think that they are worth a look. Are they broadcast? I don't know Well, were they just online? Because I do have a bit of an issue with this, you know, because Doctor Who was doing this for a bit where they were writing like DVD extras, which absolutely dealt with emotional ramifications that should have been in episodes themselves. In the show. Yeah. I think that this does a better job than that. They are on when, well, when Discovery used to be on Netflix. They were in the additional scenes section. And so they have been on streaming. And I'll check when I do the randomiser and see if a broadcast date comes up because I think maybe they have broadcast dates. We'll do it. Okay. Shall I press a button? Just a very quick question. Does he cover like the length and breadth of Kurtzman Trek or are they just Discovery? Short tracks? No, there's a Picard one. There's a, um, So they, they accompany series one on two, so there's an introduction to Picard, and there are some animated ones. They're, yeah, it's it's mostly discovery, but it comes at it from an interesting angle, I think. Okay. All right. Okay. So I'm going to press the button. Runaway series one, episode one. Okay. Is that discovery? Yeah, it's Tilly and then the princess who turns up at the end of series one, I think. It was 1st broadcast on Thursday, the 4th of October 2018. So it does have a broadcast date. I'm going to roll again though. Oh, okay. Well, not that one. I don't really like it that much Oh my god. I think that's what we call in the trade cheap, you know. Well, this is the this is the thing. We re-roll if we don't want to do it. The girl who made the stars, that's animated. Oh, great. Yeah. That was the 1st animated bit of trek, you know, I think. Well, apart from the animated series. Oh, yeah, whoops. The 1st since the 90s 60s. I'm going to roll just one more. Okay. I think that's very good, but, um, Huh. This is one that I actually haven't seen. It's called The Escape Artist, and it features Harry Maud as played by Rain Wilson. Oh, what leans into that fabulous season one episode of Discovery. Well, he's in a couple of episodes of Discovery, remember, in series one because Jason Isaacs meets him in prison. I can't even remember that character's name. There's one with a time loop, which is just the best episode of season one. Fantastic. It's fantastic. I'm going to roll one more. This is number four. Oh, my God. There's only 10 to seven. We can't do this now record yet. Go on. Okay, we're going to do children of Mars. Okay. This is the last one. Season two, episode six, 1st broadcast in 2020, January 2020, and it is the one that leads into Picard. Oh, how interesting. Okay, yeah. Well, that would be our 1st taste of Picard, won't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that's going to be interesting. And perhaps challenging to talk about. Let's see how we go I'm there for it. You've been listening to Untitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford and Nathan Bottomley. You can find us online at untitledstar trekproject.com where you can find links to our Twitter, Facebook, and YouTube channel. Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceran, and the theme was composed by Cameron Lamb. This episode was recorded on the 5th of January 2022 and released on the 28th of January. We'll see you next time for Short Treks, Children of Marlas.