Children of Mars

Hey, Joe. Hi. I've got a question for you. before we start anything. Yeah. Why are we watching an 8 minute excerpt today? I think it's actually shorter than that because the credits are quite long. I think probably it's something like 6.5 minutes and then... It shall be our shortest episode here. So I think, well, look, I don't believe in Canon, but this is Canon, right? It's a Star Trek series. Elements of short treks have then made their way into discovery. And I think that this gives some really valuable background on Picard and on Kurtzman Trek as a whole. I should say what it is. It's children of Mars, which is the most recent episode of short treks to be shown as we record. It's at the end of series two. In fact, it doesn't make its way into the series 2 DVD set. It's part of the Picard set and it's screened on CBS all access on the ninth of January 2020. So it's the 10th episode. I mean, I've got 2 things to say about what you just said there and one is, is the canon debate a big thing in the Trek universe? Is that enough? Is it a big thing in every franchise and every fandom? I think Star Trek has it worse than just about any other fandom. Sure, it's all canon. Well, yeah, I think so. And the fact that elements of the animated series, which is now the only one that we haven't done an episode of on the podcast. It's like it's like the ugly child of Star Trek project. That's right. It, you know, elements of that find their way into lower decks and other things. So we have to say that's canon. But one of the things that I think, I mean, I'm talking about everything, everything that's kind of televisual is surely Canada. I'm not talking about, you know, all the novels, the Dominion War novels and those dreadful TNG novels, contagion and all that that I read when I was a nipper. But like everything that's committed to film is surely part of the trick verse. Yeah, but I have a problem with the idea of what canon is because obviously it's a way of distinguishing the stories that really happened from ones that didn't happen and like that's all nonsense. None of it happened. It's all made up. And so... Yeah, so that's true. In fact, it's only when you actually point that out, it's how ridiculous. Arguing about cannon, it really is. Yeah. Yeah, I think what I think is there is a kind of shared experience of watching Star Trek over the years, and I think that that's what the show refers to from time to time. And so, All the time we get these, you know, kind of back references to things, whether they're throwaway lines or whatever that add a kind of deeper level of meaning to things. And I think that that is something that Kurtzman Trek does quite a lot in a way that I don't think spoils it for people who don't know that stuff. Okay, spoils it for people that don't know their stuff. I have a bit of an issue with these short tracks. And it's the same issue that I have with the DVD extra sequences they filmed for Doctor Who. And that is, like, I've watched this with you, children of Mars. This absolutely should have been part of an episode, I think. In fact, I think this probably could have been the pre-title sequence of the 1st episode of Picard. Yeah, I mean, the material that we get here is kind of filled in in Picard and Picard does do flashbacks at the beginning of each episode. Remember that? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And they've got the flashback in the 2nd episode, so the attack on the utopia Polacia. is one of the most gripping sequences I've ever seen in Star Trek. But my point is, is like this was released as a separate DVD, short trek. so as a thing of its own, and it was put on TV, separate from the episodes as well. So this is like a, it is technically like a DVD extra. Yeah, it's like a teaser for the show, isn't it? But I think it does a very good job of explaining what's at stake in Pecan. Yeah. But these aren't like the Doctor Who ones, which were like just you know, quick scenes filmed in the Tardis. This is a piece of work. This is a piece of drama in its own right. And I think... If I move this, if you want. I just genuinely think something as good as this, which is, you know, I would say as good as the best episodes of season one. Probably should have been part of the actual series rather than the bonus to watch kind of on the side. Yeah, I mean, it was available to anyone who was able to watch Picard in America because it's on CBS All Access, which is now Paramount Plus in the US. And so it sort of does have the status of a released episode. And one of the things that short treks does, it does explore the spaces around the episodes in an interesting way. And it's super experimental. So 2 of them are animated in quite different styles, with quite different sort of tones. There's one episode called The Trouble with Edward, which is an absolute out and out comedy episode. You say that was the 1st time you fought Star Trek was genuinely funny. Well, you know, Lower Decks is genuinely funny, but this is the 1st time live action Star Trek. You never seen Little Green Men? Yeah, that is funny, but... Yeah, and Deep Space 9 does do comedy episodes, to be fair, but this is properly silly, wonderful comedy. and anyone who, it's really, really good. You really must watch it. It stars the guy, John Benjamin, who plays Archer and Bob Belcher. Oh, he's got Bob. He's got a lovely voice, hasn't he? He really does. He's so funny in it. He's just unbelievably great. I get what they're doing here though. I get, I get, like, it's nice to have bonuses and this is kind of the age we're in now where you get the season and then you get like extras as well. And I get the appeal of it. I just think if you're a casual member of the audience and I don't think Picard really has many casual members of the audience because it's basically, you know, chapters in a novel, isn't it? season one. Yeah, yeah. And if you duck out a one, you're fucking screwed. Yeah. So I don't think those people would actually seek this out. It's it's the diehard Trek fans that will watch the short Trek, you know. Yeah, I think so. But I think too, what Kurtzman Trek wants to do is it creates a whole heap of TV series which are on at the same time and which are all wildly vastly different from one another. Yeah, I like that. They're basically knocking Star Trek into all these different shapes. and kind of seeing what sticks. And if it don't really work, and I question about Discovery Series one and some of Picard series one. They're kind of reshaping it and yeah, and going a different paths. Well, that's right. I mean, you know, the serialised storytelling is present in discovery, but much, much more what Picard is about. You've got short treks, which is a little anthology series of short stories, all of which are sort of vastly different from one another. We're about to have strange new worlds, which looks like it's going to be very much more trad. nostalgic and yeah. Yeah, although I think it's going to push it from what I've seen. Certainly the cast is vastly more diverse than original series track. So there's a lot of experimentation which is absent, I think largely from the Berman era. Oh for sure. Like they had a formula with bourbon trek. Well, DF9 broke up a beer. and when serialised. But yeah, they absolutely. They had a template and that's what they did for 21 years, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it was rough. Like, how luxurious to have time and to have the money, because they absolutely have the money to make this stuff work. Picard is one of the most beautiful looking TV shows you're going to find. And as a science fiction show. Now, you fight me all the time on using the word cinematic, but if you go and watch the last episode of season one of Picard, That is genuinely cinematic. Like the battle sequences and those big flowers and oh, God, it looks amazingly good. Yeah. Yeah. And that's the other thing too. Berman Trek was very staid visually. Um, but Kurtzman Trek is amazing looking. Just incredible. I mean, you and me have ripped at Bourbon Trek when they've tried to be more visually ambitious because they just can't do it. They have those like CSO shots of people against awful backdrops or the little CGI people walking along the landscape. Oh, I can see what you're trying to do, but you just don't have the money or the technology right now. Now. we have the technology. Yeah. I do want to mention that I do love Berman Trek despite... ripping into it. Stop this cursman, Trek. I would always go straight to Bourman Trek. I'm sorry We have to call it bourbon tray. I don't just, these are bad tastes in my mouth. Because we've got... 90s trek instead. 90s trek maybe. Well, it does leak into the 1st decade of this millennium, though. Now, ask what I put a little disclaimer before we're going to watch this as well, by the way, is the use of to me that this would be quite confronting. Boy, is it? Like this, um, children of Mars that we're going to watch. is absolutely parallelling what happened in 911, isn't it? in a very kind of emotive way. It's funny. My experience of 911 was super odd because I was off work sick. And I was on the internet and I started to hear the news. So I was awake, just because of time zones or whatever. And I started to hear the news about the towers. And it was a little while before it occurred to me that it would be being covered on television and I switched the TV on. And it was, you know, really astounding. It was so shocking. It was almost like the biggest thing that had happened in my lifetime as far as news was concerned. And you're somebody, you're quite like a news hunter. You watch a lot, yeah. Yeah, I do. I do. And you hear stories of kids being, like the TV being wheeled into the classroom or whatever, American kids watching it live on television. And you can see that happening here. That's exactly how this ends is with the school watching on these massive screens as the attack on Mars happens. And I think that. So we've done 911 before, haven't we, on Star Trek? Enterprise series 3 stroke at the end of series 2. Yeah. Yeah. And I know you and I, when you were my, I've been watching it recently, and I think I'm a lot more positive about what they were trying to do than you are. Well, you and John Billingsley, but I listen to an interview the other day and he was a poll of what they were doing in his own show. Yeah, I thought that the interview was amazingly good. The, the, um, I think the problem is that enterprise is flailing. They have a really great premise in a lot of ways. This is the 1st startership. This is the 1st time we're going to have, you know, a whole heap of things happening. Our 1st away mission, our 1st contact, all of that. And I think I was pretty positive about that last week when we did cogenitor. You know, there were really fun things about that situation that I don't think could have happened in any previous trek because we're all a little bit too jaded or too practised with meeting alien civilisations. And so that's kind of fresh, but they're, I mean, I do, I genuinely think at the end of series, they were trying to give it a shot. in the arm and they were trying to make it by appointment television again. And they were kind of trying to deal with stuff that was happening at the time as well. Like, maybe it was all a bit misguided and maybe what they were saying wasn't the right thing and maybe the way they made the characters behave was a bit appalling, like Archer becomes, you know, goes from being a dick to being a fucking prick in serious free. Yeah, yeah. I thought the violence they did to Tripp's character was pretty rough as well. Like they kill his sister and he becomes horrible and he has been becoming more and more charming throughout one and two. You say that, but then in the last third. So he's dealing with his sister's death route series three. Um, and they do an episode where he loses a crew member when the ship's attacked and he has to write a letter home to the crew members' families. And throughout the episode, he is struggling to write this letter. And then he realises that when he's talking about this crew member the whole time he's actually thinking about his sister and it's not the crew member's death, he can't get over it. and he has a breakdown and it is remarkably sensitively handled. Like, it's characterisation I didn't think Enterprise was capable of, personally. I mean, give Conor Trinier things to do. He really is great. I'm only really just starting to realise how good he is. I think the problem is that it was just being done to inject some drama into the show and that it didn't have anything very much to say. And I also think that it's America's reaction to 911, which was you know, war in Afghanistan and the occupation of Iran, is something, I think, that Discovery season one is addressing. And the problem in Discovery Series one is we're at war now, to what degree do we throw away our principles? When they get in the way of us prosecuting the war? Which, I think, is a worthy premise for that season, but it just gets too mired in that cheap plot twists and crappy cliffhanger. And I was like, and like, if that was the premise of that season, I really wasn't seeing it, because I felt like I was being like diverted. Lots of directions. Yeah. Yeah. Whereas this, this is very pointedly 911 because it's literally playing out like you described there. They're seeing the terrorist attack on the television screen. And the whole point of it is it unites people together in the face of that kind of terror. Um, and absolutely inform us Picard series one. And the 1st time I watched Picard series one. That was my biggest issue was that it was just a bit, it wasn't the Star Trek I loved in the 90s. It was the characters, like Picard was there and Rock and Joy turn up later on, but it was this kind of very cynical, very dark. Universe. Yeah. Now there's moments of brightness. Don't get me wrong. And there's fun characters coming along. And by the end of the season, they've kind of captured that sort of adventurous spirit again and they've worked from all. That 1st half, 1st time I watched it, that was rough. I've been watching a little bit of Picard lately and I haven't really gone back and watched it through in order and I'd quite like to do that now. My impression at the time was that there were a few episodes where they were spinning their wheels in the 1st half. Definitely. Yeah. I think the 1st episode says its stall very memorably. It knows what it's doing. and it commits to it. God, it looks good. It looks amazingly good. And the last episode, I think as a culmination of the season, is one of the best trek finales, like across the franchise. It makes me cross. What comes in between? Oh, get to that. What comes in between is there's a lot of padding in between. There's a lot of interminable scenes in the ball cube. There's some divergence like hue and things like that that I don't think are entirely necessary. Um, Yeah, so it's it's a real mixed back and I didn't like it the 1st time I watched it. I'm starting to watch it through again now knowing. Yeah, I've seen it once. And actually, I'm seeing far more strengths, but it's almost like the further into the season I go, the more pacing issues they get and the more I kind of miss the old episodic trek. Yeah, yeah. And the old episodic trek didn't go away. It's over on discovery at the moment, you know, so lower decks. Yeah, Picard is free to do something else. But what Picard has is a reaction to 911, more like the American reaction where we get angry and isolationist, and we have Picard resigning from Starfleet kind of as a result of that. I bloody love that scene, you know, where he says, I told them that if they don't listen to me, I'm going to resign. Oh my god, well, they wouldn't have done that. No, they asked me to resign. Yeah, yeah. Well, and that's it. So we have Picard, who is where Starfleet's basic ideals, or the Federation's basic ideals are still located at a time when the Federation has been frightened into abandoning those ideals. And he says, doesn't he, when he does that interview, he says because it wasn't Starfleet. Yeah, yeah. Really angrily. Like, that's a great scene. Yeah. And that is the thing that Kurtzman Trek is doing, and I maintain it is because it's a late Trump post-Trump phenomenon where we've had 20 years of America being at war and then culminating in this sort of kind of racist demagogue coming in and sort of trampling over democratic ideals and the continuing threat to American democracy that still persists. It's a lovely idea, isn't it, of taking, you know, kind of the consequences of 20 years of war, transplanting it into the future and then showing how we're trying to move on from that, and how you know, this, the old trek idea of we're better than this, and we can get there. We can get there again. We've been there and we can get there again. And so those people, I think, who initially criticised Kursman Trek for not being trek enough, for not having those ideals enough. I think that they're wrong because I think that the whole of Discovery Series one is about responding to war or conflict or difficulty by clinging more closely to those ideals and clearly Picard's about that. And that's what this is about. This is about a terrible tragedy that unites people who are in conflict. And I think it's very, very deftly done in a very short amount of time. Do you mean this episode or this season? this episode. Oh, I mean, we'll go into this in a second. I think my only, like, my, my biggest objection is, I think Picard is trying to be a little too nasty, and it does terrible things to its characters at times. I really don't like that. That feels very not Star Trek to me. Yeah, yeah. I think it's kind of trying to occupy a Game of Thrones sort of space. Yeah. And, you know, we can have a Star Trek that does that, I think provided that's not all we get. I mean, he was a terrible fucking character, that each ship. but gouging out his eye and killing him before. I mean, that was terrible. Unfortunately, Borg, you know, like being murdered off. It was like they would literally try taking Next Gen and Voyager. I'm just like, you know, assassinating as many people as possible. Anyway, should we go into children of Mars? I think we probably should. I've got it queued up. Okey dokey. Shall I count us in? I'm ready. All right. Five, four, three, two, one. And we're off. So this is Kima. And... This thing I do with their tongue. It's adorable, isn't it? The mum is so nice. Is that a special effect or is that? Yeah, yeah. I think it's a special effect. I mean, I'm sorry, just look at the shipyard. It's beautiful, isn't it? And then there's Lil. And I think that this is cleverly done because although they both go to the same school, they're coded as different racially, aren't they? So, you know, um, Kima is, is brown. She has different skin and eye colour from Lil. Lil is a white girl. Kima's mother seems to be some kind of technician and the father seems to be a supervisor. So it's almost like there's a class distinction there as well. So does Lil bump into chemo because she's got the shits because she's had a fight. Oh, that's the other difference too. A nice family relationship. Kema has a friendly relationship with mom. And the other one is slightly more contentious. Yeah, well, Lil hangs up on him and that's the last time she ever speaks to him as well. Can you imagine? That hates more than anything because when you see her, it's almost like she knows. The last time she spoke to her dad. Oh, it's so good. Now you wanted to talk about that bus coming down, didn't you? I just think it looks amazing. And one of the things that I love is when Star Trek does Earth because Star Trek on easy mode is a spaceship with a bunch of people in space and that's where Picard eventually lands. But what's interesting is seeing them create the 24th century on Earth. And so this school, this is, I think it's a university building in Toronto, actually. I think the school is beautiful. I think you know, these holograms look amazing. It's something that Picard does exceptionally well. Every time they go back to Earth. And I said to you, it's almost like a mix of contemporary and very futuristic and they kind of blend the 2 seamlessly. It's wonderful. Look at this classroom. Look how beautiful the location is. Oh, Kema's life. You know what, we're talking about talking about like the, um, the tension between the 2 characters and the racial turn. I think that was absolutely there in Berman Trek as well. Do you remember Mendon, the guy with the, the, what was it, the Benzite? And and and that and they were they were a bit rude about him and there's talk about them being racist about the Ferengi in the academy. It's supposed to be this enlightened universe, but I still think there's the old tensions there. Yeah, well, but I do think that the reason that they're different isn't just for the plot here, it is symbolic. It is 2 people with very different backgrounds who are, uh, you know, literally come to blows as this is happening. The fight is vicious. It's really vicious. Yeah, yeah. It's really well done. It's brilliantly done. Do you know what's weird about this? What makes this such an aberration is I think this as a piece. Yeah. It's it's small and it absolutely has a mission and it's committed to it. Whereas Picard as a whole. It's flounders and it's all over the bloody place. I think it's, I think the card's less like that on a 2nd viewing, I have to say. We'll see. We'll see. Oh, wow. Look at this. Yeah, yeah. It's really properly violent. And it's great seeing 2 girls going at it, you know? Yeah, I was wondering about that as well. I'm glad that it's girls, who are the 2 leads in this, and I think they're both really good. And I love how this is mostly done with no dialogue. So can we talk about the song? It's written by David Bowie and Brian Eno, and it talks about us being heroes as the, as the sort of, um, what does it say? And the guns shot above our heads and we kissed as though nothing could fall. It's a stunning song, and this is a terrific version. I just think and it suits the action. Like, I... Did you notice how they showed the blood on her nose? I think it was that was deliberate to show, you know, she's an alien. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And so, and so, the being a heroes thing is the final shot. It's them overcoming their enmity and their differences, them responding to this horrific tragedy by unifying. And that's that's the reaction we should have had to 911 and that's not the reaction. And it's not the reaction that the Federation has in Pecan as well. Like the Federation reacts, but by being isolationist, by abandoning the Romulans, who are, you know, just refugees, you know, it's got a really strong political thing. I don't think there's something very irresponsible about putting this terror attack on all these screens for the children to see. Well, no, but I mean, that's what happened. People were taken away and I think that's irresponsible as well though. Well, I think kids, I think kids can cope and I think that kids, I think it was worth doing. I, you know, this is an important thing. And I think they kind of, I think they needed to see it. And this scene, look how many extras there are. Look how big this space is. Yeah, this is not, this is not a scrimp production. This is a polished piece. And those shots, the synth shots, look amazing. And when you actually see this attack taking place. like in the facility, it doesn't disappoint. I mean, it's really good. Oh, look at that, the planet. incredible. And now they're both remembering their parents and she's lost, you know, Keema's lost someone who she loves who she had a fun relationship with and there's Lil remembering hanging up on him. It's awful. It's just, it's so hard. And just to have like just to make it an ad for Picard for a second. Well, yeah, it's amazing. by looking grim. I can't even imagine. I can't even imagine what people went through losing loved ones in such a pointless way. It must have just been heartbreaking. That's beautiful final shot. And that's what we go out on is them linking hands. But that Star Trek, isn't it? They're literally saying this is how we should have done it. This is how we could have been, you know? Yeah. In the most cynical of all Star Trek shows. But there's a moment where Kima looks at Lil and she weeps, like there's a tear, and the actor, she just looks so vulnerable. It's so beautifully done. Do you think it would have been worth going back to these characters in the actual series or this just stands? One of the things that I like is the self-containedness of it. There are a couple of instances where characters, like Saru's sister, turn up in short treks 1st and then find their way into discovery. Remember that this is some years before Picard is set. Is it 15 years or something? Like it's a considerable amount of time. Because a lot's happened with him, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. like he's he's in the vineyard. He retires, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I just think this is properly good and that it manages to have a worthwhile political message. You know, without much dialogue. There's the 2 voiceovers at the beginning, but there's basically no dialogue. Also, as well, I think, because this was the 1st piece of Picard that made it to air. I don't think this is what people were expecting at all. So it's kind of a shocking like, okay. This is what you're going to get, guys. you know. It probably excited people a lot because it's very different from what kind of Star Trek has been before. But what I'd like to say is that I think this is this as a piece of drama is actually more effective than half a dozen of the Star Trek Picard episodes. So people should absolutely go and seek out these short tracks. and see what they're about because I think, I mean, I've not seen the other nine, but if that's an example of how good they can be. Sign me up. Yeah. I would recommend Calypso, which I think is astonishingly good, and has some background to the Zora character, actually, long before Zora became a character in Discovery, and Trouble with Edward, for sure. I mean, there were several that you didn't recommend because we went through that randomiser about 5 bloody times. In fact, I think the, is it the girl who made the stars, which is one of the ones that we rejected, I think it's extremely good, I just wasn't sure I was able to talk about it, to give it justice. I think it's extremely good as well. And there's another one called E-Framen Dot, which I think is wonderful, just tremendous. But a lot of them are very good. Like I'm a big fan. There's one or 2 I'm yet to see, but I think absolutely there's a lot of really excellent Star Trek in there. All I can say is, is, that is the typical example of a short trek then I am salimating cigarette. All right, so it's time for us to choose next week's episode, and can you tell the listener, Joe, what we're choosing and why? That is something that I would absolutely love to do for the listener. It's on the back of us doing the short treks of Picard. It's it's basically, you know, we are we have dipped into a couple of series twice now and we haven't touched upon Picard at all. And there's so much to talk about with Picard. So much. It's the 1st kind of reinvention of a Star Trek show like this because it's essentially But it's not it's not TNG, is it? But it's got a lot of TNG in it. Okay, so we're going to be doing Star Trek Picard. It's probably the Kurtzman trek I find most problematic as well for a lot of reasons, whilst I acknowledge that come the end of the season, I was completely on board. So it's not like I'm rejecting it outright. And my finger is on the button. Okay, all right. Give it a press. Oh, no. Well, I think it's the 1st part of the 2 part finale. It's called XN Arcadia Ego part one. Yeah, Eddie Nut, Arkadia, Ego. So it's some, yeah, no, that's the one where they're going down to that planet and it's just like 90s trek, isn't it? Or the Android planet. Should we have a single episode? Yeah, push it again. Yeah, yeah. That's the only 2 parter. Well, I don't know what this is at all. Nepenthe? No, no, no. Nepenthe is the episode, I think, with Riker and Troy. So this is absolutely gold and no one here listening knows that we edited out 5 minutes of me researching to... to find out what that is. We're so sophisticated in our Star Trek knowledge, you know. Yeah, no, just sophisticated at editing. The later it gets, I get very ropey on episode time. Well, there's no on-screen episode titles in Kurtzman track, except for Lower Decks, obviously, and on prodigy. But the grown-up shows don't... But the non-animated shows don't have on-screen title. Question, that assertion, you know. It's like calling Torch with grown up. This is the episode, I think. This is what people were expecting with Picard. and what they got. So this is a really interesting 1st episode to do because I think Nepenthe is basically what some of season two. There was a great reaction to Nepenthe, wasn't there? Yeah, yeah. I think, you know, like we'll talk about it, but I think that there are enough original characters in Picard who are interesting and maybe one who's super tedious. And one who is insanely hot as well. Oh real. God, yes. Well, 2 who are insanely hot. I think that they're Australian. The little Australian Romulan, I think, is really... Anyway, we'll talk more about that next week. You've been listening to Untitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford and Nathan Bottomleaf. You can find us online at Untitled Star Trek project.com, where you can find links to our Twitter, Facebook, and YouTube channel. Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceran, and the theme was composed by Cameron Lamb. This episode was recorded on the 30th of January 2022 and released on the 4th of February. We'll see you next time for Star Trek Picard, the Pencil.