Faces

Hey, Joe. Hi. So we're back in Star Trek Voyager, and we're in season one, which we kind of like, although I think we've only done one season one before, and we've done a couple of season 2s, but this is quite early. This is episode 14, it's not early in the season because it's a really short season, isn't it? It only goes to like 15 or 16. Truncated season, isn't it? 4 season one episodes, including the 37s and Twisted, were pushed over to start off series 2 in such an incredible way. Not. dear, dear. So this is called faces, and I said last time that when we were younger, we called it B'lana split. should have gone with that we're really funny You know what, right? There is a memory alpha page that goes on the length of a Bible for faces, and no one once makes that obvious joke, a lot of split. I was waiting for it, thinking someone's going to say it. nobody does. Which kind of suggests that there's very little wit going on in the Voyager office at this point. Yeah, look, I didn't mind this, but I do think it's a very kind of mid-episode. We've been talking about whether we do too many crappy ones or too many good ones and maybe what we don't do enough of is these just terribly mid-range ones. So I think this has a reasonable kind of conceit. It's fairly obvious, you know, you've got a half human, half Klingon. We've never really had that before, apart from special emissary Kayla. And so we get to split her in a science fiction way into a human and a Klingon, and then the 2 of them interact with each other and we learn more about B'Alana's character. And all of that is kind of a bit obvious, and they don't do anything super surprising with it. And in fact, I think what they end up doing is probably slightly bad, and I'll talk about why I think that later. But apart from that, you know, it's reasonably agreeable and it's early Voyager, that's kind of fun. It's leaning into what Brandon Bragger said you wanted to bring into Voyager, which is sort of horror and weirdness. I think the X-Files was mentioned at one point. That's the sort of thing they're trying to do. And there are a few moments in this that could be that, you know wouldn't be unusual to see in like a monster of the week, X-Mile episode. I think this has one stunningly good moment in it. I loved it in the day and I love it now and everything else in this episode is very mediocre, maybe just a bit under mediocre. The plotting is so in a time when Voyager shouldn't have functional plotting yet. Like they shouldn't have figured out how to be functional. This really is, you know, investigate to find the people take us through every single step to find them. It's it's like what TNG 56 and 7 did when they were a bit desperate. You know what I mean? It's like, following a trail of breadcrumbs, finding them, turning themselves into the indigenous population, going down a lame mass phase of fight, you know, into the stock caves number 56 to hide away from the Vidians, the 2 characters meeting, learning something about each other, and then the episode comes to an end. Like it's so functional, this. I remember it being a bit bolder. and a bit more exciting. So maybe I was just my critical faculty. just weren't functioning as a child. I think that this is done better in 2nd chances in TNG. And I think... Yeah, because what you have there is Riker is split by a weird transporter accident and you have the Riker who decided to end his relationship with Diana, is our Riker. And then the Riker who never did that, is the other Riker, which is why it's called 2nd chances. And so we get to see the same man reflect on how the decision has changed him and that sort of thing. And I think that's unusual for Star Trek, the Next Generation, but it's quite late in the run. And it's just got a character up within the episode itself. Yeah, that's leaning into the backstory of Troy and Roy and all of this. That's really interesting. Whereas, you know, the central premise here is is Blada Torres is at battle. She's at war with herself, you know, half Klingon, half human. But, and they say this in memory alpha. They couldn't draw a line under that because they wanted to continue to explore it. So what happens is they separate the pair of them and then they come back together again and she's as confused as she was at the beginning of the episode, basically. So there's there's no point to this. In fact, one of the interesting things is that it covers a lot of the same ground as lineage, which is a much later episode, which was... at this point in series 7 episode. Yeah, so it was our 3rd episode. And it also has B'Elana worried about her Klingon heritage and we illustrate that because there's a science fiction way that she can affect how her baby looks. Um, and so we get some of this stuff and the father leaving and all of that. That story contradicts this story, but I think it does a much better job of telling that story. Well, it sort of, it does give Bilana a conclusion to draw, you know? And At the end of that episode, do you feel like she, there's the the epiphany has been reached, you know? She's learned something about herself here. She's learned what that she should be half human, half Klingon. No, I think she's learned that she needs to be half Klingon, that part of what she values about herself is her half Klingon half. But the way we go about that is to show both sides separated to such extremes. The human B'lana is such a wimp. And the Klingon Balana is such a, you know, bold, confident warrior. And I just don't believe that the separation is that 50-50? It's, it, it lacks any sort of subtlety, this. No, but I think I think some of it is done rather well, and I'll point out those bits as we get to them, because I think there are little moments, little moments in that plot that are surprising and that do have something to say. I'd like to make a comparison like you, because you went that 2nd chance is, I want to take us forward to Chuvix, which is doing the opposite of this, instead of splitting 2 people apart. It's mushing 2 people together. It's very voyage at this, isn't it? This weird science. But within that, it becomes about the fact that those 2 characters are conjoined, who that person is, the relationships with the crew and then the very difficult decision at the end. It's a really dramatic, unforgettable episode. Nobody forgets Jubix. So much so that an episode Lower Decks is named after it way in the future. I don't believe there's an episode of lower decks called faces, you know? No. No one remembers this for a reason. Yeah, I think that's I think that's probably fair. It is a sort of obvious one to do. And so it's not surprising to see it in series one and it turns out they mostly make obvious choices about it. And Roxanne Dawson does say, and she goes on to say, Miniac, this is one of her favourites to do because it was an acting challenge to play 2 different parts. I question some of the choices that she made, though. And I wonder if a firmer director shouldn't have said, do you know what? This is a bit black and white. Let's mix this up a bit. And she even says herself, there's a quote on memory out of her saying a few years later, when I understood the character of B'Elana, because they've done, you know, a ton of episodes by that point, she would have played the whole thing completely differently. Yeah. So it's a curiosity for sure. And we'll get to the one scene. I think you know which one it is. It's one of the best horror moments ever in 90s trek, but I do think everything's basically leading up to that and away from it. And and sort of everything else around of it. It is as by numbers as 90s trek gets. Well, let's go and enjoy it, shall we? Exciting, isn't it? All right. By numbers nine, East Trek is what we're here for. Exactly. I'll have to admit to you, lovely listeners, that it's so boring this episode, that Nathan, every week we do the Zoom call, and he puts a screenshot up behind him of the episode. And, you know, we did an Enterprise one where it was a fabulous Corassant style cityscape, and, you know, we've done ones of DS9 with ice asteroids floating in space. For faces. Nathan has regaled me with a picture of some very beige carpet. Why is that, Nathan? So it's the carpet on the floor of the lab. Because this episode has no ambition to be visually interesting beyond perhaps that striking moment that you mentioned before there's nearly no scenes that don't have just actors in them talking. And so it was impossible to kind of find anything. So I grabbed a sort of half a 2nd of the floor of the laboratory and here we are. Often, you summed up the episode rather well with that. I think I have. Although maybe use something else for the website. All right, I'll count us in. I'm ready. Five, four, three, two, one, and we're off. I remember what I was going to ask you, actually. Does Lieutenant Durst appear before this? Yes, he's in Cafixis last week. Oh, another memorable episode. Shakotay spirit flying around the ship, invading everybody. So this is a very, very short teaser. And so we just get to hear this Vedian who we don't actually see and then we see this Klingon woman and then we're told it's B'lana and it is a really striking look. Don't you think the makeup looks really good? Well, only because we're used to seeing it so soft. It was a normal, yeah, on character. It wouldn't be too shocking. I do want to contradict something you just said a minute ago though. There is one thing I did think was rather impressive in this, and I thought there was some good dramatic lighting in faces. And as we go through, I'm going to point out at the moments because there's so little visual interest elsewhere because the sets are really boring. Really, really. Whoever's on the light in duty this week has realised this. Sorry, he tries to pick people out in the silhouette and even that that teaser there where you had sort of green and dark jet. It's trying to make you look a bit more interesting than it otherwise would have because otherwise it would just be a slow pan over a character, which is very boring. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so this is Rick Colby, by the way, who directed it and he's the one who did, um, all good things. He's stalwart of the... I think he did CJR 558 as well. He's done some popular episodes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And you know, right? Like, you know, we've said before, this is a bit like a sausage factory. churning these things now. Why, absolutely. You can only have a certain amount of ambition because you're doing these 16 hour days. You've got 3 days to shoot the bloody thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It is crazy. Sometimes you do just have to point and shoot. I did notice, however, that the teaser did obey Nathan Bottomley Star Trek teaser rule number one, though. It is what the episode is about. Yeah, yeah. Except in a sense, though, it's not quite because, I guess, I guess it's how B'Elana sees herself in a way. Do you know what I mean? Like, she's surrounded by human beings, by people from Earth, and she is a Klingon. And so what it looks like is, B'alana's been turned into a Klingon. This is the episode where she's been turned into a Klingon. And we're not disabused of that for quite some while. We have done this, haven't we? Obviously, we've had Kira as a Cardassian in 2nd scan with that. Troy as a Romulan in face of the enemy. So it's not like, what is this baffling? This weird cut straight back to Voyager again. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I've seen where Neelix makes plumique soup for tuba. Play meek soup. Playmake soup is the thing that, you know, Spock throws against the wall when Christine Chappel serves it to him in a muck time. So it is classic... But we've just had a teaser where Bilala Torres has been turned into a Klingon. Why am I now watching Chewbok eat soup? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. This is a kind of pointless scene and I guess it is just character staff. I do like these 2 together. Don't get me wrong. Chewbok and me. I mean, there are moments where Neelix can be incredibly annoying and he's verging on annoying here. Yeah, I'm not sure how this scene ends as well. The scene ends in a very, very odd way. And picking up the soup and drinking it. And yeah, but it's kind of as if it is if they think they've just delivered us a punchline, but they haven't, you know? No, for that is a common problem with Voyager, you know. They linger on the joke, which isn't funny at all. That's right. But there isn't a joke. And... Yeah. Shame. But the chemistry's good. So, yeah. I mean, you know, like we're learning who these people are, I guess, at this point in the run. So he sits down and eats it with, not, well, yeah, drinks it. He picks up a whole bowl. But what does he say? He says, is it? Oh, it's pecan or something like that? Oh, there's no place to my place like home. That's not funny. Like, that makes no sense. Like, what's that? I don't even get it about perfectly tailored carpet there on the bridge. Yes. Yeah, yeah. We were talking about the carpet on the Enterprise Bridge and the way Discovery doesn't have carpet anymore. We don't have carpet anymore. I like to think, since I've seen those pictures of Picard series 3 with the signs up saying, do not walk on the carpet. You know, when they did the Enterprise bridge again. That there was always signs like that for every episode. You know, don't walk on a buddy. just moving it, right? Oh, it's season one Janeway here. I quite like it. not my favourite Janeway hair, but I do quite like it. What is old is? She only delivers technobabble in this. She really doesn't count to moment in any of it. Boring, isn't it? Like we're talking about how the how the cave corridors have been shifting around. Like, so what? You know... That the best way of describing it, you know, cave corridors because essentially, it is basically 2 corridors that they just shift about to make it look as if we've got a labyrinth. Oh, now we're doing the breadcrumbs conversation. I'll message you again. nine. Yeah, yeah. I was like, so they've made a metaphor to cut to the chase. It's breadcrumbs. We're going to go and find them great. But then they will have to explain the metaphor with the techno babble. So the scene takes 3 times as long. It's really weird. Yeah, it's it is a bit crap, isn't it? 90s Strek does that quite a lot though, doesn't it? I mean, like in a sense, that's the procedural stuff and I kind of like it and I kind of get the appeal of it. But no one in that scene wants anything. I mean, they, uh, like, have they received a message? They've received a message and they're missing or something? Oh, look. So this is the Vedians, and we've never, we've never done of a D an episode, uh, on untitled Star Trek project. Now there's only been one before this. The one where Neelix had his vocal calls taken out. Yes, and we did do resolutions which does have that... Oh, Dr. Pol in it. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And which references all of these previous episodes, including this one, actually. I think it does. I really like the Vegas. I think they're the best of series one and two. They're the best race that they made up because it's both horrific and tragic. And I think that's a good line to sort of straddle, you know? Because they've sort of got posh accents and, you know, they belong to the Vidian sodality, which, you know, that's a Poncy word. And, and, but they're disgusting and they're aware that they're physically revolting, you know, that that's the thing. They're sort of cursed. And so this is actually the actor who plays Ensign Durst Lieutenant Durst. Yeah. And so this is that actor. That's a clever savvy move, isn't it? Yeah. Well, yeah, yeah. So they get so they get him to play him for, you know, there's an obvious reason later on play the 2 characters are played by the same actor. He was in Homeworld and he was the little guy who kept records for the entire kind of community and he wanders onto the Enterprise off the holodeck onto the Enterprise and ends up killing himself. Um, and it's actually, you know, maybe the most interesting thing about that episode. And then, of course, he's in the cards, he's Geiger, who develops the sale entertainment machine in the cards. Can I ask you a question, yeah? Are you bored? Yes. Unfortunate episode I am, yeah. Yeah. So what we do need to talk about, though, is Roxanne's choices here? I don't know why she's saying every line like this. It's a strange bizarre choice. She does cut it out at some point. Yeah, she does. Yeah. She cuts it out in time for her to actually not have it hamper her in the most important scenes. I wonder if she'd shot some bits, Nathan, and naked. No, don't do that. Yeah, maybe that's it. Like, she thinks that Klingons are space people. Like maybe she's not really into Star Trek and she doesn't really know anything very much about it and she's only just started doing it. And, you know, she hasn't gone back and watched a whole heap of crappy Star Trek because that wouldn't have helped anyway. I mean, what, she looks a bit like Lurser or Bator here. The trouble is there isn't a Klingon in Voyager, is there? Apart from her. So what's her reference point? She's got to make it out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And she's not aware of what Michael Dawn is doing or whatever and so she does this strange thing. And it is the sort of strange overanunciating thing that Kleons do and she's got the teeth and all of that sort of thing, which is a bit of a problem. Lighting watch. So I do like that grid in the ceiling and the light coming through that's throwing all the light across it because otherwise that would be the most boring set you've ever seen in your life otherwise. I do think the fella does differentiate between Zulan and Durst really well because the 1st time I watched this, I had no clue. was the same actor. Well, he's on a sort of under a hole. bunch of latex, though, you would never have known. That's another compliment I want to throw on this episode. I do think that the DM makeup. It is horrible. But that's a good thing. I mean, you can see sort of by protruding and graphs that have been put on in different places and it is a bit nasty. It is sort of PG horror though, isn't it? Do you know what I mean? Like it's not too... I kind of think it has to be, though, doesn't it? I don't know what time stop this was going out at. But I know the VHS is coming out. They were all PGs with the occasional 15. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But it is, you know, like we're going to do horror, but we're not going to do it very much. Do you know what I mean? is kind of the idea. Oh, here we go. Here's another talaxian, a skinny talaxian. He pops up twice again, actually, the actor. I think it's in fair trade and then later Neelix's last episode Homewood. Oh, I forget what that was called now. Right the end. Homecoming? No. No, that's DS 9. We've got a lot of homes. There's a lot of episodes, all right? coming home. Discovery. But like all of this stuff. Like we said, all the stuff on the, on Voyager, them following the train of breadcrumbs, I think we probably had that conversation before on TNG. We've certainly had this, being thrown in the sale and finding, you know, another race from the quadrant about, they've done that intinge. There's just nothing. No, there's just nothing to this, is there? Aside from the sort of the ickiness, the occasional wickiness. The Vidines are a good idea, and I guess they're kind of like the Borg, aren't they? They kind of take over alien races, carve them up and use them as parts. And so, I mean, you've got what is that 1st episode with Neelix's lungs? It's preposterous. Well, I can't even remember what it's called, the phage, I guess. Yeah, phage. Yeah, that's it. And that is Branham Braga, and that was him sitting in his stall with Voyager and saying, this is the sort of stuff I want to tell. Oh, here we go now. Stock cave number 89. One, number one. They've got 56 before. I do like it when they put in a bit of water as well, you know just to. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Gar Wang was bitching and whinging on memory alpha about how all he had to do in this episode was deliver Tecla Babble completely. That's what he did for 7 years on watch. Except where he gets to be cute in the killing game and that's about it. Oh, that was lovely when it was all roughed up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Carp. So again, like I guess this is supposed to be fun, but it is incredibly boring. It is just eating up time, isn't it? It is. I feel, um, beyond uh, our Hannibal lect moment that's coming. The best of this episode was when we learn about Zulan, where we learn about the Vidians being a beautiful race. Um, that sort of leaning into the tragedy of him. At one point, he goes to touch her face and he's desperate to have sort of contact with somebody, but because he's so hideous, he knows that's going to happen. Yeah, I light on that. Yeah. Well, that's about 5 minutes of the episode. Oh, the forceful, ragged breathing, so it's the subtitles. That could be anything, couldn't it? She is still going to be doing this thing. Oh, does she speak in this one though? Yeah. Yeah, even the eye is hard to look at. Like, it's not just the face, but the fact that he's got that cloudy contact lens on his left eye is sort of a bit off putting, I think. And what I like is, is the fact that um, 2 podians come in later on, don't they, to select victims and things like this. And so you're kind of shown, there's 2 sides to this race. There's him. He's a sort of thoughtful scientist that wants this to improve. And then you've got the sort of the functionaries that they don't mind being the villains, you know, and they don't they don't mind... Well, hacking people up for organs. Yeah, yeah. And we do, and there's a couple of episodes, like, you know, like deadlock, where they're scouring through the decks of void knocking people out and go, right. This one's got great lungs. Great. Yeah, I see what you mean about the lighting. They are at least trying to do something about the lighting, but it is super boring. He's underlit here as well. So his makeup looks a bit more shock than it could be. Yeah, it's the sets that are the problem. They can't get out of this sort of just the standard bits that they assemble like a flat action every week. Yeah, yeah, exactly. But they don't, there's no attempt to make this wondrous or visually interesting. You know, it's ugly. Um, you know what else is interesting? This weird way where she starts talking about the voracious sexual appetite of Klingons. Yeah. It's just a big, isn't it? It is. It's having a little Roddenbury moment. Bill has a great quote on memory alpha where I said there was nothing good on memory alpha and I've quoted it about 5 times already. Sorry. But he does have a good quote where he said that he basically was writing Sulan as a villain, yeah, as a sort of manga type, doing experiments on Balana. And they said, no, no, no. you know, give him dip, give him subtleties, make him somebody who's tragic rather than just bad. And he said, and apparently that advice stretches way back to Roddenbury was you shouldn't make these disfigured people, the villains, yeah. Just make them more interesting than that. And so he said the whole episode turned on a dime then and it became sort of a character tale for him. So the bit where, and we'll get there, where he puts the face of durst on top of his horrible graft in an attempt to woo B'lana song. Yeah, it's pathetic, isn't it? It's really good. pathetic. It's horrific and it's really quite, quite sad as well. So this is so surprising seeing Roxanne out of makeup and of course she's stunningly beautiful. I mean, she's still beautiful with that stupid forehead on. Um, but, and she plays it really quite differently. Like, she looks quite different. And, Remember how, when we did lineage, I said that there were problems with the Balana character because she's kind of like, um hot-blooded Hispanic lady. Do you know what I mean? Hot-blooded Martina? Hispanic Latino women, no. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it is a little bit of a cliche and they make her a Klingon to be hot-blooded. Do you know what I mean? Like, this is the better option? No, no, no, but, but, um, you know, lineage has her father is obviously, um, where the Torres name comes from, and, you know, her mother's a Klingon, and, and here, like, I like this because she finds herself, and she's surprised. They did something to me that made me a coward and she doesn't know what it is. Do you know what I mean? They made me a coward and it doesn't even occur to her. that it's because she's not a Klingon anymore and that this is how humans feel all the time and that she benefits from being a Klingon because she's not a coward because she's strong and brave. And that's the story that she has to learn this episode, but she doesn't even realise it. And I thought that that was good. This is the story that we will actually see and it is obviously... And in another parallel to lineage. Tom Paris jumps in with a comparison of his own. What an idiot. So this is this is himself... Oh, you used to make me get a shitty haircut. Haircut. And it's just like, yes, yeah, white people have problems too Tom. But this is this is different. Right. It's so bad. It's so absolutely... Trouble is, it's the fact that the writers didn't pick that up and go, you cannot compare like racism to kids bullying somebody because they've got a shitty... Yeah, do it. I know. And it just, it's not intended to make, uh, Tom seem like an asshole, but it does, but it does. No, he does, because he does a similar comparison in lineage. And she says to him in that, no, that's not the same. And she needed to say it here as well. Yeah, yeah. It is an interesting thread, and it is one we come to time and again. When you come back to it and barge the dead, where she confronts her Klingon mother that shed a terrible relationship with, it comes back in extreme risk, where she suddenly posts the marquee being destroyed. She's suddenly doing these deaf divying extreme risks on the hollow suite and things like this. So it's something that's sort of weaved into her character when they remember she exists in Voyages Run. Um, yeah. But, you know, you compare it to something like, I don't know Kieran or Fave. It isn't dealt with anywhere near as much as much depth. I actually found that moment a little bit striking too. where Tom says you finally got what you wanted. You're just human. And she closed her eyes, closes her eyes, and a tear runs down her cheek. And I just thought, yeah, okay, I'll give you that. You know, that's that's something. But what conclusion can this episode possibly come to? We know they're going to come back together again. We know that they're going to have opposing like viewpoints and we know they're going to end up working together. In terms of plotting. It's entirely predictable. Yeah. Yeah. Well, except that, um, she's killed, except that Klingon B'lana is is killed, um, like that, I think that is a surprise, but then we you know, she needs her DNA, you know, and so we, you know, they're not reconstituted by being sort of beamed together, the, you know ones killed, and then, and, and, and so here's the problem, I think, with the episode is that we, read B'lana, Human B'lana as the real B'lana, and Klingon B'lana is the part of herself that she feels weird about. And part of the reason for that is that we mostly hear, Human Balana talk about how she's feeling to the other human characters. And she's the one wearing the uniform. And she's the one that's alive at the end of the episode. And she's the one that's alive at the end. And so it's not as interesting as it could be because how does, how does this banana, the Klingon banana? That is a much more interesting story to say. Benefit. Yes. What if we thought she was the real Balana? If we spent as much time making her have thoughts, like making her learn why she benefits from being human? Do you know what I mean? Like, oh, I think I think I think that would be more interesting to watch as well. The the Klingon realising that she needs the human rather than the human realising that she needs the Klingon. But I think they've accidentally fallen into that the same way that the Paris hair cut line happens. Do you know what I mean? Because and it's a problem with Voyager. We've got... I think it's TNG and Voyage. TG as well. the human 1st alien second, but it's also that white person and human are so closely identifying, I think, which is less of a problem on Deep Space 9 and much less of a problem on discovery. But, you know, the human and white person are pretty similar here. And so this is her. She's a mixed marriage, but she's got a fiery temper. Do you know what I mean? And she looks at that part of herself and, and, you know, being brought up by that mother after her father leaves and all of that sort of stuff. Do you know what I mean? And so there's a bit of a problem, I think. Yeah, the emphasis, the emphasis is all wrong. I think that would have been really interesting to watch. Watching it all from the Klingons point of view and realising the strengths of being a human. And that leads into Star Trek as well, doesn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Look at his grotesque hands. Listen, it's out of touch, I think. You know what I mean? That's good it is. So the idea is the reason why they got these massive puffy heads is what they've grafted race after race on top. Try and keep this horrible... I don't think we ever learn too much about the disease itself where it came from. The phase comes from a word that means eating, like an ancient like the ancient Greek word for eat. one of them. And so, um, you know, you know, the X-Files episode War of the Copper Phages, which is more of the shit eaters. Yeah, classic. which is about cockroaches. Her name is Bambi. So good. One of the best. One of the best. Why are we watching nine? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, dear. You keep cutting back to Scully washing her dog, don't you? See, that's a nice bit of light in there. Did you see that? Yeah, yeah, behind the guards. Yeah. Well, they've got to do it because those sets are so dull. Yeah. They feel big though. They do feel big, those fairs. Yeah, they do a bit. I mean, are we, are we being made to be grateful that, that B'Elana's, uh, half Cleon, because she's kind of boring as a human? Okay, we're taking dust. I did, well, I kind of draw that conclusion myself that actually she's a bit weedy and dull as a human being. Well, I mean, she kind of has to be and she's overplaying it a little bit, I think. I think she's too scared. Like, I refuse to believe all of the chucks bar comes from the Klingon hole. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think that she's, you know, it's very basic, isn't it? I think part of the problem is that she has to be a lot different from our Balana, if the Klingon is a lot different from our... They need to get to the point, don't they? So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't think a lot of people watch 90s trek for subtlety, do they? They watch him. The, you know, the craziest friend. She's doing really well though, isn't she? Like, I love that where she can't say anything. Like, for once, we're not relying on fucking dialogue or her saying how she feels. We're just letting Roxanne do it, and of course she can do it. I think that's good. Like there's just little moments here and there, which I think are better than the rest of it. As Nathan just said, Durst has been dragged out of the cell. I don't think in my wildest nightmares would I have dreamed what's coming up next. I just didn't think they go there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Cleverly, they come back to an incredibly dull scene on the Bridge of Voyager, whilst they talk a load of tech level, to almost lull us into this full sense of security. And then we cut back to B'Elana in a 2nd and he's in the background, sort of blurred out and he's like, a blanner, hello. I've come to see you and the music in this scene. They go full on horror music. It's like, There he comes. Look, tilted angle. It's really quite well done, isn't it? And obviously just what they've done. This is why they've got Durst and dumb Zulan to be played by the same person. And you could see where they've torn his face off or the edge of his face. And there's horrible, bloody, bloody bits everywhere. I mean, it's nice. It doesn't fit properly. And it is his own face, most of it. Do you know what I mean? There's obviously a layer of latex there. The sad thing about this incredible moment is she shoved him against the wall and there you can see it is just a big rubber mask, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But never mind. It's a good moment and we haven't said there's many good moments so far, sorry. No, that is pretty good. I always thought, you know, like with Hannibal Lecter, you know that he was very civilised and, you know, he was well educated and listened to classical music and and all of those sorts of things had very refined taste, but that he would kind of tear someone's face off and wear it and stuff, and I thought, oh, that's really disgusting. That must be kind of awful. Like it's the thing he's talking about in this scene. It's a series of microfishes, says Harry Kim. Well, how big's the microfisher, says Janeway? Well, it's the size of one micron, said Harry. I'm like, what's the word micro? What are you talking about, people? Yeah, yeah. See, this is super boring and I don't know why they think this is at all interesting. I mean, It means that they don't have to come up with a real reason they can't get in and rescue them. And instead we just have these endless scenes where they just talk about why it's difficult to rescue them. It's a good ride. just come to the chase and have them on the planet, you know, where the drama is, rather than all this buildup to the drama. Or I have a real visible thing, but we can't do anything real and visible. We have to have microfishes because it doesn't cost any money to realise a microfisher. I think this exemplifies just how linear and tedious this all is. Oh, how on earth are we going to get, you know, onto the planet and get past the Vedians. Paul's Chakotay. I've got an idea, captain. Or... We'll put the media... He's done up because of it, dig it. It's just so laboured. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I do like the moment where he says, oh, I've just had my face grafted on. you don't recognise me and that the guy goes, oh yeah. And then you kind of think, wow, actually, that must be a super weird kind of way to live. Also, when you see that makeup in the very dreary Voyager lighting It does sort of expose it. It's nowhere near as good as they make it look on the planet with a more dramatic lighting. Oh, God. Look, I swear all these tunnels. They use all, they always use the same sort of car and rocks each time. It's the same set. It's really just the same set. They move a few lights in and stuff. There's a lot of planets with sort of caves like this, isn't there? Well, they're cheap, aren't they? You don't have to do a sky. Ah, of course. You've seen them try and do a sky in the studio, haven't you? Yeah, terrible. Oh, that's a taxi and cane good slur with the water. Yep. Of course. So now we're sort of logging out the episode until the 2 bananas me, aren't we? Yeah, essentially. So we'll hang out in the caves for 10 minutes. Yeah, so yeah, we just, we're just basically marking time until that happens. And then I think the episode kicks off. I don't know why. That's 5 minutes before the ending, unfortunately. Yeah, yeah. Why don't we get more of that? We, like, we've got 16 minutes left and the 2 of them haven't met. Is it too expensive? I don't think it is. Like, I know you say about Star Trek. the regulars sort of being shown as competent professionals and we're doing a bit of that in this episode, right? I think the problem is, is TNG set the formula for that of having these long scenes where you sit around the table and figure it all out. But, sort of come mid TNG, those characters were so well formed. They could do those scenes with a ton of character, you know? Yeah, we liked hanging around with them and someone would make some dreadful analogy to something else and, you know, and they'd have a joke and there'd be something going on there. This is just competent people being competent where their personalities haven't really been defined yet. But it's also kind of boring. Do you remember, do you remember Darmok? And I mean, you know, like you're comparing it to one of the best episodes of Star Trek ever? But that scene with data and Deanna, and I observed at the time that there's no character stuff going on there at all beyond them doing a job together. But they were trying to dissect language. And that was really interesting. Yeah, yeah. and it was fun and there was a joke in it. And we understood what was happening. Whereas... Because we understand language. We don't understand micron particles. Yeah, yeah, yeah. all of that's so boring. And it, like, that's the thing. You know, we had the corridors moving around and that's clearly the exciting B plot is the corridors move it around and moving around and making it hard for us to see hard for us to get in there and rescue them. That's super boring. But like, instead of talking about it. Go down and have sequences where the corridors are moving around and make it disorienting and interesting. Yeah, yeah. Like twisted. riveting stuff. Actually, you know, when we get around to Twisted, there's some there's some nice character stuff in there, you know. I think it's probably more enjoyable to watch than this. Yeah, yeah. Well, I guess, like, I think that we, look. The interesting thing is B'Elana, isn't it? That's the only interesting thing happening here, Belana and the Videan guy, right? I think I think the Vazian guy, I think what's absent is making the 2 B'alanas interesting. Well, we haven't even had the meat yet. Where are we? 14 minutes to go. I just don't think there's enough there. It's the sort of thing that DS9 would have probably done really well, this leaning into the characters and telling us something about them. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Having something interesting to say, but there's nothing there beyond her parrot, you know, her paragraph length character concept. Do you know what I mean? They've invented the family backstory for this, I guess. I wonder if we read that paragraph, if that's word for word, what she said earlier, what she says. Yeah, yeah. You know, we've got the Voyager Bible somewhere, I think. Oh, I've got it down to that one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 475 pages of it. She's got weird hair, doesn't she? She's got her normal banana hair, which you wouldn't normally have. I don't know why I want this banana, this human banana to be totally kick-ass. I know they can't make her kickass, but oh, she's just so ineffective. No, so she's smart. And I think that what that's what they've done, isn't it? The brains are on the human side. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And all the engineering is on the Klingon side. Yeah, yeah. and violence. Well, maybe that's something on fire. That's too simple. No, no, no, no. But I mean, if it's going to be an examination of her character and you're just making the 2 parts of her character as obviously obvious as you can, that's what you're doing. Do you know what I mean? You're finding a science fiction way of kind of making those characters real and having them interact with one another. I'll give her her due, though. I think her body language with the 2 characters. Like visually there, I could see, I know I can see they're in different clothes. But I could tell because the Klingons cold in herself, sort of loud and proud, and Balanas, the human, is sort of curled into herself. She's doing that really, really well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think these scenes are not bad. I think they seem to not bad. But, but, I do think that because of her performance at the beginning of the episode and because she's wearing so much makeup she's hard to empathise with and because we're never invited to worry about what she's thinking. That bit of direction summed up, not extract perfectly. The camera was completely stationary, and we waited for 10 minutes 10 seconds while she walked the entire length of the 2nd. close. Yeah. Oh, bless. Oh, no, now we're back in the caves again. Yes, exactly. They're cheap. Did you say that they were on the planet Avery before? It made me wonder whether the DS9 whether the Defiant had just been to visit the planet Kate. You know what's really funny about memory alpha, right? Is that all the creatives? So not the actors, but the writers. They're all, they're all talking about this episode and everybody's going to extreme lengths to explain why the premise of this isn't hokey. They keep using the word hokey. It could have been hokier, but... No, no, it's hokey as hell. I love, I did love her line, her line. I'm sorry, I couldn't replicate you as souffle. I thought was pretty great. Here, have this rat. And she does eat the rat, to be fair. Do you know what I mean? But she still doesn't know why she's so weak. Okay? She still doesn't know why she's so weak. she hasn't twigged what sort of episode this is. Yeah, so here we go. So, so, I was waiting for something here. I was waiting for something big for them to learn about each other beyond we need each other. Yeah, it's the most obvious thing possible and it's exactly where it's always going to go. And it... And I do think that focussing on the human balana is a mistake because that's less interesting. That's the way you respond to every situation, is it? This is why I'm always getting in trouble. Yeah, yeah. So she's angry at me. I'm all human and no Klingon, and I respond in ways like that, you know? Yeah, so what does what does Klingon Balana get from all this? Well, we're never going to learn. she learn anything? No, no, no. We not going to think that. And you know, like, well, we were doing Treasure and Faith in the Great River. We were talking about just how many scenes we were seeing from the other side's point of view. We're just not doing that here, are we? Oh, look at that. Did you say, do you realise that we're both fighting with ourselves? Just go, wow. B'lana must have watched TV before. The other one should have said, that's literally the situation. Yes, well done for pointing that out. That's right. She said, that's ridiculous. That's not what's happening. They should have gone the whole way and just said, oh, you know inevitably, we were always going to end up here or something like that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And again, you know, like... Like, Belana's right that she's going to get herself killed, that the one thing that Belana gives the Klingon Belana is some control over her temper. And when the Klingon Belana, I mean, doesn't what does she do? She throws herself in front of like in front of someone's weapon to save the other B'alana, doesn't she save the other B'alana's life? And the other banana says, I'm happy to die now because you suck you know, it was an honourable death and you were behaving bravely. I don't think she was behaving bravely, actually, if you watch the scene. Tell yourself whatever you need to when you're dying, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think she was pressing the buttons. At this point, I was just waiting for the episode to end. I've got to be honest. I was like, okay, come on guys, merge back together now. Yeah, it could have, see, look, there we go. Again, it's so obvious. Yes. Yes, it's that's where we were always going to go. It is, it's rough, isn't it? Well, I think you and me, we get more frustrated when something could have been so much more. We've had a lot of episodes where they're terrible and they just couldn't have been salvaged. But actually, I think they could have done something with this. Yeah, I know. I think you've got B'lana and B'lana are both really interesting but it's just so obvious. It's, it's like, you know, like I made that crack about B'Elana having watched TV before, but it's like it's TV for people who don't watch television or don't understand it. You know, it's so kind of basic. Now this bit here where Chakotay comes in and is hideous for DM makeup and says, oh, Tom Paris is me. And you can see the sort of simbering tension between them for a 2nd. I'm like, yeah, this is the season one of Voyager, I like. they were doing something a bit more interesting than this. Yeah. This could be a TNG episode, couldn't it? Uh, well, I mean, kind of, but like I said, the 2nd chances as the nearest high concept episode, it also, the other thing it doesn't do is kill off the other Rai car, which is the obvious thing to do to get to the status quo. And so we have a spare Riker around for Deep Space 9 to borrow later. Oh, well, fabulous. Why do they, you know, he's saying there. Look, look, you don't recognise me because my face has just been grafted, but they wouldn't all have that amount of graphs. Like all their heads are the same size. Yeah, yeah. Oh, man, you'd have some that would... Exactly. They do look different from each other, and one of the guards is uglier looking than the other one, like one of them has sort of pointy hair. marginally. Yeah, yeah, Eddie is very marginal. They look roughly the same. I've got to say, you know, the green screen here, having the 2 of them in the same shop. actually pretty good. It's better, in fact, than when we had the 2 Jways in the same shot in endgame. Proving that voyage. I forgot how to do special effects as time went on. Well, in fact, there is one shot that I think is spectacularly good with the 2 of them. No, no, it's not where she's carrying her, is it? No, no, no, no, because that was just another action. Look, we're doing these shooting scenes where one person shoots then one person hires behind a console and then one person shoots. Ah, yeah, but I mean, there's some stakes here because this is salon, you know, like, and Culan is a terrible person, but he's trying to do his best to save people. His makeup is really ghastly, isn't it? I love her. Yeah, yeah, it's good, isn't it? But I think that's a fault in the last episode is that after she's frozen against the wall, we don't see him again. about 10 minutes and he's by far the most engaging character in this. Yeah, yeah. It's sort of, it's like, no, we've got to have time for the 2 bananas to have a chat now, but as we've already covered, that's very dull. super boring. And it shouldn't be. absolutely shouldn't be. I'd actually rather, I'm sure it won't be that interesting, but I would rather have found out sort of what's going on behind the scenes with the videos. There we go. Oh, he does get a fabulous close-up, though. After a shoot, yeah. Watch out the camera sort of lazily goes in on him. handheld camera. terrible thing. But it's also, it's also he's kind of doomed his people because she showed some immunity to the phase and he killed her. Imagine he killed that face, then she beamed out. He grafted another one afterwards to get rid of it. Every time he looked in the mirror, he could look at what could have been with Alana. twat he'd been. Yeah, that's right. No, this, I think there's a scene here where we see both of their faces. They're holding hands. Is it coming or has it happened already? They're holding hands. She's lying on the transporter pad, you know, like I think that's really well done. And then she lets her hand go. Yeah, it was just earlier. So I think that's the best special effect. I mean, they do it in 2nd chances where the 2 Rikers are standing on opposite sides of the screen and then one walks off in front of the other one and you just sort of think, ah, that's smooth. These doctors, they're incredible. I'll reintegrate the DNA into your genetic material. Oh, they can do anything. Yeah. Yeah, with their with their usual skill. So we know really at the beginning where we have this shock visual of her as a Klingon. Well, by the end of the episode everything's going to be all right. The doctor can do anything. Yeah, but remember, we know that because, I mean, you know, doesn't Kirk get surgically altered to look like a Romulan or doesn't he just put the pointy ears on or something or a Vulcan or something at some point? I'm surprised anyone trusts anybody because, like, literally anyone on that crew could be another species and we'd never know about it. That's right. Cesca. And of course, of course. Once, I mean, once we've seen Deanna do it in face of the enemy. Oh, compare this to state of flux. Which was just so good, wasn't it? It was so interesting. and original. You know, it was doing interesting things. Well, like this scene here is really for people who don't understand television. Do you know what I mean? Like it is like, let me just explain how, you know, all of what's been going on for the past 45 minutes in case you've been unconscious or reading it more. a distinct possibility. Yeah that's right. And look, Roxanne's doing some proper acting, which is kind of nice. Yeah. But it is spelling things out to a five-year-old. I came to admire so many things about her. You only knew her for 5 fucking minutes. Yeah, but, you know, she did throw herself in front of the phase. And she cooked you a rat, you know? yeah that's right. I admired cooking so much. Oh, yeah, I'll have to spend the rest of my life fighting with her. Now, do you remember the conclusion we drew at the end of treachery faith in the Great River? Whoever's going to win, I'm going to lose. You know, that's what the episode was about and we came to a tragic conclusion that's going to go on and mean something. What the fuck does this mean? No, no, that's right. She can be exactly the same next episode and we need never worry about this having happened. Well, she's actually saying is I'm exactly the same as where I was at the beginning of this episode. Yes, yeah, that's right. So next episode, we need never speak of this again. Essentially, is the idea. Although she is acting. Look at her touching her forehead there. Yeah. Nathan, I do remember this being a lot better than it actually now to be. Yeah, yeah. I mean, the high concept thing is really fun and it is just a typical Star Trek thing to do. And it like, it's not completely worthless, but it was sort of boring, I think. I think because the B plot on Voyager is almost entirely worthless. In fact, let's say worthless. And because we're not learning enough about Balala Torres to make the A-plot worthwhile. All you've really got is what I said in the beginning of this episode. One terrific shot moment that you never really will forget. And that's the thing I always remember when people say faces, is the horrible X moment. But beyond that, it's... Yeah, it's, and it's not, it's not the weakest point of season one but it's definitely down there, I think. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it is disappointing, isn't it? Particularly when you see it done. has already been done better by this point. What happens now is we follow this up with state of flux and either needle and stuff like this. really interesting stuff, but you've also got cathexis and all that dreadful, uh, the doctor on the holodeck, you know, uh, what's that episode called? You know, where he's in the car. All heroes and demons. Yeah, and it's all the, so you've got sort of Voyager forging its own innovative path and knock off tea itchy episodes, rubbing shoulders. No, but don't worry, we get to a point where they're all knockoff TNG episodes. The originality don't last too long. But there's a weird mix. Yeah, it's it is odd, isn't it? Because I think, I think we've said this before, that because Voyager has to be different to TNG, it has to have more of a premise than TNG does, like TNG virtually has no premise. We're in a spaceship exploring strange new worlds, blah, blah, blah blah, blah. And so they've given this more of a premise, but they also just want to do Star Trek. So, I guess, you know, those 2 things will spend the rest of their lives fighting one another, much like Balana and Klingon Belong. Well done. It's maybe rethink, you know, the plumic soup scene at the beginning of the episode, which now actually might have been the high point on the entire episode. It wasn't too bad. It was certainly the best scene to take place on board the ship. Let's just say that. And there's about 25 of those. All right, it's the end of the episode, and we're about to find out what it is we're going to be watching next. It's your turn on the randomiser, Joe. So what series have you chosen? Well, with a dramatic turn somewhere completely different. I've decided to stay at 90's track and put all 4 series in. Oh, okay, excellent. Simply because we just have so many of these bloody things to get. And I'm sure you'll take us somewhere else next week. But there's something comfy blanket about watching I'm talking about 90's trek. So, okay, we go. Your, oh, no. Your random Star Trek Deek Space 9 episode is season six, episode 21, the reckoning. Do you remember one? Oh, I don't even know what that is. The 1st one with a power raves where you get Kira and Jake on the promenade with a pile reef inside each of them, having a undramatic battle. Although it does have a lot of Kai win in it. But no, I'll press it again. I'm not saying it, yeah. Okay. Yeah, no. Even worse. Your random Star Trek, the next generation episode is season two episode 22. Shades of Grey. Oh wow. That's probably the worst one in the entire franchise. Is there a worse episode than Shades of Grey? Just the whole not giving a shit? Like not, like, something that they really should have said. I know we're supposed to put something out this week, but here's what we've come up with. And to write out Dr. Pulaski in such a lame episode as well. Oh, well, I don't think they even know she's not coming back by that point. Who cares? Oh, possibly. Holy shit. Barely an episode of... Barely a decision they ever made, bringing back... Oh no. Sorry. Okay. Oh my god, it's this came up last time. Your random Star Trek Deep Space 9 episode is season one, episode 19 duet. What is it about the randomiser me and you? the time before. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're not doing it. Sorry. Okay, your random Star Trek Nest generation episode is season one. Episode 16, too short a season. It's really terrible. what's that So it's the admiral who's ageing backwards. It's got terrible latex mask, isn't it? a terrible latex makeup. In fact, my 1st encounter with Star Trek, the Next Generation was when series one was released for rental only at video rental places. You can ask your father or grandfather what they are. viewers at home, listeners at home. Um, and the only 2 episodes of season one that they never released were home soil and too short a season. Why was? I'm assuming that they thought they were really shit. Wow, was this? Well, I press it again. I'm so sorry. Good. You know. Okay, you're round up. Oh, this could be good because it's pretty terrible. But I think it's sort of mid-range terrible. Oh, okay. Your random Star Trek D Space 9 episode is season four, episode 21. The Muse. It's the one that no one likes in season 4 with Laxada Troy. Oh, excellent. So it means we've done Muse and the Muse at that point. And it is, I mean, it is fairly ghastly. Do you remember, it's called... Jake's having his head strokes and all of his creative juices sucked out by this alien. And, um, Luas La Troy is getting married again to somebody that she doesn't want to marry. She's not been forced into it and Odo has to intervene. Can you imagine the high jinx? Are they trapped in a lift? No, that's the 1st one. That's really good. So they've been trapped in the league. This is the one where, you know, they've had 3 episodes together. The 1st one where they met and he was trying to avoid her. It was like some terrible sitcom episode. The 2nd episode where she brought the love virus and everyone fell in love. So it's not a good sign. If Lance turns up on DS9, This is the 3rd one where they've absolutely besotted with each other now. I don't know Axana and he plays... I'm going to meld into something in my quarters and you have to try and find me with her. Oh dear. It's like this changing the equivalent of hide and seek. Right. It just sounds awful. Yeah, okay, I'm up for it. We've done some awful DS9, but not always. So I think we give it a go. This is an accepted terrible episode. So naturally, you're going to find things to enjoy. Yeah, probably like it. I wonder if it's as good as a night in Sick Bay. There's a good possibility. Yes. You've been listening to untitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford and Nathan Bottomley. We're online at untitled Star Trek Project.com, where you can find subscription links and links to our social media accounts. Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceran and the theme was composed by Cameron Lamb. This episode was recorded on the 23rd of January 2024 and released on the 26th of January. We'll see you next time for Star Trek Deep Space 9, the Muse. Yeah, I said that. Oh, is golf? So if we've done Muse and the Muse, I think then we have to do anomaly and anomaly. The only 2 episodes of Star Trek that have the same name. Isn't there homecoming the homecoming? Oh, there's emissary and the emissary. Like they've done that. Muse and the Muse, but these ones are literally the same. So it's anomaly which is a season three. It might even be the one where they steal the warp cord. Yeah, it's the one you ate, yeah. Yeah, because it's a normally, because there's a space anomaly and also because of their behaviour. And then anomaly is the discovery one, isn't it? Anomally, it's the discovery one where we discover the big... And is that just an anomaly? Yeah. The DMA. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, the episode Austin, the series, I still haven't explored us all. Yeah, you should because that end of series 4, if we roll series 4 I'm going to just choose it because it's so good. Well, take us away from 9 is next week, but we've done 4 on the balance now, haven't we? We did 2 TNGs of Voyager and a DS9. No, hang on. Wait. We did reunion. Treachery Play from the Great River. Voyager. Aces. And then, yeah, do so tonight. So we're actually still behind. Like you say that we have to do lots of 90s track, but the one series that we've done, so I think both Enterprise and TNG, we have done less. than the percent. Do you know what I mean? Like there's a percent of ones we've done. It's about 11%. And we've done sort of 9 point something percent of TNG, for instance. Of a lot of episodes, I remember. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. But we've done less than, do you know what I mean, than if we were to do the same amount of each one. I just don't think there'll ever be another Star Trek show that has as many episodes as TNG, DS9 and for that show. There's no way. They are the Behemoths of the Trek franchise. Yeah, well, they're the sausage factories of the train franchise. It's quite such a joy because... The levels of quality are... Manifest, yeah. Although, um, I do look forward to the next time we go back to the animated series again. There's just not enough of them too, we can't do it too often can't we? Because there's not enough of it. Well, we've done two. We've done 2 of them, have we? We've done BIM and we've done time trap. I'm gonna run the stats. I can hear their music. It's so shit. So low effort. So animated series, we are 9.09%. Overall we're 11.43%, right? Discovery. we've done 12.73. So we're ahead. Deep space 9. We're already ahead before next week. Voyager, we're ahead not counting this week, so we're ahead, but we are behind 9.09. We're behind on TNG as well. Oh, okay. We're head on TOS. Oh, we should go and have a prodigy. We could do another prodigy. We're well ahead, though, on prodigy. We've done 3 out of 19 episodes, so that's 15%. Oh, on Netflix now. Yeah, yeah. There's another season coming too, I think. I think, in fact, we're supposed to watch. Prodigy on Netflix in order to get the numbers up to be sure that they make another season of it. I mean, it works if it doesn't go anywhere, but it was so charming. It would be a shame. It's really enjoyable. Yeah. More enjoys enjoyable than faces on the muse anyway. Oh yeah, for sure. absolutely. Well, I suppose that's still to be determined, but I can't imagine it throwing any great revelations, I mean, in the next 7 days. No, no, okay. I like Oxana. We have done a lot Xana episode there, haven't we? Yeah, I think Manhunt. It can't be as bad as a manhunt. No, it's not. Their chemistry is nice. I'm sure more and and... They're both older. You know, yeah. And I just like the fact that we've gotten over the whole, oh, this old woman lusting after it. That's just been kicked on the wayside now and they're just mates. And this is the one where he realises, oh, actually, maybe, if the wind was in the right direction, I could have pursued something with you.