Treachery, Faith and the Great River

Hey, Joe. Hi. So, we're back on Deep Space 9 after a fairly long break, and we find ourselves back in series 7, as usual, and it's series 7 episode 6. Treachery, Faith, and the Great River. Something keeps drawing us to season 7, doesn't it? And away from series one. you know, where all the duds are. Well, I really enjoyed this, and so this is the 3rd episode that sees Nog going on a kind of bartering sort of mission. So, and we've done one of them. So in progress in series one. We have the no J consortum buying stem bolts and stuff. I know that was a bit of fluff, but we love it. I love it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it's really great. And then in the cards, I think, is perhaps the iteration of this idea that is the most interesting and works the best. No, I keep saying this, but we have technically done that one as well. We have, kind of. For a podcast that no longer or never did exist in the 1st place. That's right. It's sort of episode 0 or episode -one of untitled Star Trek project. We will definitely come back to it, I think. This, though, I think is really fun and agreeable. And in a season, that's kind of about the war and has a lot of things to wrap up. I'm always grateful that they ignored all of those fans who complained and just gave us hang time on the station with everyone doing fun things. And I thought that that plot worked incredibly well and was really agreeable and funny and likeable. Well, we almost catch up with everybody in that subplot in this don't we? We see Kira, we see Esri, and we see Martok and Worf. everyone gets a moment in there. But the whole time, O'Brien's pulling his hair out more and more as Nog does his outrageous swaps in order to get this stabiliser is it? I can't remember now. Some bit of technology that he needs for the defiant. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And all of that's fun and pep's one of the best parts of that subplot is how much fun column is as a Brian in that plot. And how eventually ends up being sort of carried away with the idea of the great river as well. He sort of adopts it as well. And I really like that too. It's like a hitherto unsuspected bit of harangue law that is just delightful. They make it up every year, don't they? And you know, Ira bear sitting there, you know, as they're sort of go through these scripts going, that's another version of the rules of acquisition, we can bring out this year. He's got the dollar signs in his eyes. So, so the other plot is the, is the more weighty, the more arc sort of ready plot, and it does actually push the arc along a little bit. I think there's a revelation at the end of the episode that is a proper revelation and does sort of push things on. I talk to this season and it's vital to Picard series 3 that we've just watched as well. Yeah, we didn't know it would have such an impact 20 odd years in the future. Yeah, there we go. Some twists are meant to last, aren't they? Yeah. And I thought that was really good. and again, you know, like sending Odo off always works quite well. And so here we have Odo and Wayoon in a really sort of surprising episode that changes even kind of the backstory a little bit because we learned that the Wayoon, who was on the station, uh during the that sort of occupation at the beginning of what, series 6, uh, is now dead, and did I do the line? Oh yeah, go on. His death in a transporter accident is highly suspicious. And that's really fun. Like, that's a funny thing to do. And so now we have a new Wayoon who's with Damar, and we didn't really know that he was new when we 1st saw that. And we have this 7th wave in the 7th wave in the Sylvester McCoy of Waones, who shares faith with the other Waoon, but it expresses itself in a really different way. And so, like, there's a sense in which the 2 subplots are really not... Yeah. But they are tenuously linked, but they are properly linked with the idea of faith. And I think that makes a nice change, and it does kind of beef up the B plot a little bit more too, because it becomes about something interesting and something that's happening in the A plot. What did you think of the A-plot? What impressed me so much when I 1st watched this was I was utterly convinced this whole thing was a ruse all the way through. No matter no matter how good Jeffrey Coomb's performance was as the nice way in. I was convinced they were trying to get some tactical data because that's DS9's thing. is that it comes in with a big sort of political sting at the end and you're like, oh, that's what this was all about. And so the scene at the end where he commits suicide. Obviously we'll get there. in order to save Odo's life. It's so moving. Because that's the point where I'm like, okay, no, this has been for real the whole time. I want to watch this episode again and see this other reading on it now as well. And just beyond that, to Jeffrey Coombs in one episode. One is amazing. 2 is out of this world. I think he's brilliant. The performances as a whole in that, Renee Oberjonois and Casey Biggs as well. Casey Biggs, who just continues to impress me, the more I see him in these last season. He's really good. And they're just the very subtle things they're doing as well. Like him drinking the canal so much and stuff like that, which comes in really important later. They're seeding a lot in these 1st sort of 5 or 6 episodes of series 7. You don't really realise they're doing it. It's not until later when it all comes to fruition. I think it's great. My one issue with it, I did say I had one big complaint was that essentially, all the dramatic incident is told via exposition. So we learn an awful lot in this episode and all the juicy stuff like, you know, the disease hitting the great link or she walks in at one and we do see it. Yeah, we sort of be hitting a scabby face and all, sorry, to anybody who's something. But, But it does feel like we're talking about a lot of instant and Wayoon's death. All this stuff that's happened off screen. So it feels like we're cutting to after the drama and just talking about all of the consequences. But these are actors that can handle this sort of expository dialogue really really well. And at the same time it's telling a strong character story. So it gets away with it. But it is unlike DS9 to sort of cut from the drama and just talk about the consequences. Yeah, I mean, because this isn't an episode so much about the disease. It's just introducing whatever that disease is. And we'll learn and see more of that later. So it's just on the periphery of this episode. Whereas this episode is in some way about Odo becoming okay with the way that Wayun worships him, I guess. So it's so sweet, that bit at the end, where he says it gives him his blessing. plays it so well. It's really good. I'm finding more and more as I go through DS9 that these quiet revelations are far more affecting than the big, you know, dramatic moments that they try to sell all the time. So, you know, you've got, I don't know, sacrifice danger, which you've got all the fireworks going on and things like that. The Klingons are coming in and all of this is supposed to really make us feel something. But actually, it's, you can't cradling his child at the end in a very quiet moment as she dies in his arms. Those are the bits that really get to me. And I think this is a great example of it. There's another one in what you leave behind, you know, with the war coming to an end and Odo in the female shapeshifter just having a quick moment together. Oh, there are those sort of smaller moments that are just so well acted. I think that's DS9 Street. I think that's where they do their best work. Although I do like some big dumb spectacle, and there is a little bit of spectacle here unusually for an episode like this, and we'll get to that as well. Well, because it sort of becomes a cat mouse chase, doesn't it? Yeah, and I think that's done really well, like well realised. But then even within that, it's still reacting, that's the best. I love the bit where Wayoon, the, you know, the evil Wayoon decides, well, you know, well, we will bump off Odo. And it starts off by saying, you know, we can't kill a changeling. I forbid it. And then he's like, we can't let them know who's on that ship. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's so good. I mean, what a gift Jeffrey Codes was for this show. What a gift. Well, in fact, it's the faith of that Wayoon of Wayoon 6 that's perhaps more interesting than the faith of Wayoon 7. I think. And we'll talk about that as we go. What do you think? Should we go in? Let's definitely go in. Yes. All right. I'll count us in. Five, four, three, two, one, and we're off. All right, so this scene is terrible. I love this. is the dirtiest opening to any episode of Star Trek. She's going a little lower. Oh, lower. It's, but I'm just getting, and that, like that terrible special effect of, of his, um, shapeshifter hand. And, you know, just a few weeks ago, we learned that in fact shapeshifters, changelings look like raw chicken meat. And so that was all I could think of when she's being massaged by him. And I'm also thinking that that special effect is there to cover the fact that Renee Obishonoir has old manhands at this point which we see. The special effect is the preferable option. What I do like about this scene is it is 2 characters in a mature relationship having like essential moment, which is something that we kind of asked for. And I'll buy the relationship. I guess, though, that I think it doesn't quite work because it's not about what the episode is about. And so this scene should be establishing how Odo feels about the way that the Vorter worship the changelings. And because he doesn't suspect there's a changeling or because they've set the plot up that way, you know, he looks like he's going to meet a Cardassian. We don't get the starting point here, which we probably should at the beginning. Well, it is sort of doing that DS line thing of leading you to think it's going to be one sort type of episode. A lot of them do this. A lot of the big hitters start with a quiet moment. It's like, oh, okay, I'm going to go off and investigate this thing. And then it turns out by the end of the pre-tartle sequence, we're in completely different territory. Yeah. Look at the state of the promenade. Why is the promenade in this state? we know? Well, he said the environmental systems have gone down or something like that. So, I don't know, maybe it's filled with fog or something. Who knows? But it does look like a terrible mess, doesn't it? It's not something from last week. that, uh, no, okay. Right. Of course, quartz appalled because he can't make any money because no one can get to the bar. I love this bit with Cisco. He's so succinct with threatening him, isn't he? You will do this by the time I get back. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he goes, I'll try. And then Cisco sort of goes, hmm, and then walks off. I do like how he sells the fact that he was 10 kilos heavier on the Bridge of the Defiant, which I just thought was really great. It's like, it's making me fat. Can you fix it, please? He's so beautiful, Avery Brooks, isn't he? I wonder. Petty Johnson Gerald was excited every time she did the shot with him. Yeah, he's looking great, isn't he? So so, oh, okay. So we've already got Nog listening in on that conversation and now he's coming to fix the problem and it's so great. It's really, really terrifically funny. This is the tipping point because he gives, he gives Nog his authorisation code. So now Nog has got carte blanche to do what everyone wants. So the entire episode. Yep. The entire episode people are coming up to O'Brien just incredibly pissed off with him because it's something that Mark has done. The best spirit I will get there is the whole bit around the desk. I just love that so much. It's so fun. But the blood wine thing is pretty great as well. and sort of beautifully resolved. In in the cards, the glorious thing about it was the way that all of the trades that Jake and Nog had to do made everyone happier and it's like the night before the war begins, or we're expecting the occupation at any and we just get a little moment, a little reprieve, which I just think is beautiful. Here, you know, what we have are these sort of comedy moments where everyone's angry and then they're appeased and everything ends up being better than they expected. And again, it's a kind of supernatural thing. And in the cards, it was that cellular entertainment machine that was making that happen here. It's the great river. Oh, just at a moment to say just how effortlessly charming Aaron Eisenberg is. Oh, so good. Like, he's so watchable. And I really think that's underrated with actors. People could say, oh, they're nuanced. They're incredible actors, but he's just so effortlessly watchable. Yeah, he's really good, isn't he? Oh, look at this. moody lighting. We're down in stock case set number 68. Yeah, it's number one. So, Gul Rasol is actually dead, but we didn't really care anyway did we? No, I do love how this is lit, though. sort of harsh sort of angry lighting in this cave. Which we complain a lot about the flat lighting in 90s trick. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think, you know, like this is pretty good. This is pretty good. Well, he sort of steps into the light and his eyes, his blue eyes where you pop in this light. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's very striking. Although you can see the flaky makeup as usual. I did spend quite a bit of this episode feeling sorry for Renee actually. And there's a moment where he, there's a really touching moment the big moment of the episode, where he has to convey something but he can't do it with his face because he's got the fucking slab of latex on it. Well, the fact that he manages to convey so much emotion for that mask. It's extraordinary, isn't it? But it does seem like a bit of a thing. It was like we thought it was bad that Lever Burton's eyes were covered. for 7 years. I think he does it whip his body as well, Renee. He just carries himself in ways that really are quite affecting. I'll try and remember to point out that bit of acting, which I thought was really good, that he does, you know, without having a facial expression. He's like, how do I do a reaction without using my facial features? It's pretty extraordinary. I wasn't convinced at all. This whole, you know, do with me what you will. I could place myself entirely in your hands. I'm defecting to the Federation. I was sitting here watching this the 1st time I go, no way whatever. And even Odo says, you know, you're defecting, like you can barely believe what he's hearing. It becomes more credible when we know that there's another way in back home, like still back on Cardassia. But at this point, it is a pretty shocking opening, isn't it? I guess. The fact that I would have had to have edited that scene together with Jeffrey Coombs playing both parts against 2 different actors. I love it. So good. Oh, I mean, the fact that that was improvised move, bringing Coombs back and making the water clones. The fact that they took something that they just decided to do because they wanted the actor back and then made incredible like creative choices around it. Yeah, yeah, it becomes part of the law and it is really just because we were fucking idiots to kill off Jeffrey last time. Let's get him back. You go back and watch it in that episode to the death. He is amazing in that. Like us making, while making it, I would have said, no, no, change the ending. We don't work anymore. Actually, I'm believed they did because all of these jokes around you know, the various clones, the bit later in the season where he gets his neck snapped by wolves in the cell. Oh, yeah. Damar just laughs his head off at it. is great. Well, don't they destroy the clone things? Like they destroy the... Oh, that's why he picked that target. Yeah, yeah. So here we get the I'm not a founder. So I guess that's our starting point, isn't it? I'm not a founder. Yeah. I do like how the episode does top and tail with Odo and Kira though. I do like that. It does give it sort of nice symmetry. Yeah. Oh, I know, just reminds us, like, I think you're right. The fact that the characters are in relationships with one another is actually pretty good, I think. You can do better than that, he says. you? Yeah, it just it all just felt a bit flimsy and then you're right. As we go to the runabout, as we learn about why he's left, as their relationship deepens, you start, it's like 2nd skin, you know, when you're presented with something. That's so obviously, and then throughout the episode, you're slowly sort of coming around to, oh, is this? Yeah, yeah. Really happening? Because this is very much the old, you know, um, uh, Weyun defects to the uh, Federation episode. Do you know what I mean? Like, that's the elevator pitch for it. And you kind of think, yes, well, we have to go back to the status quo anti at the end of this. So how is this going to work? What's a shame is, is I would have loved to have seen a way in with the Federation, and a way in, way in versus way in, in the war. Yeah, that's 10 episode... We could have put Jeff in every scene. And even here where he says, there's a kept yourself white facility in sector 507. you know, you can attack that or whatever given them vital. Even that I was like, well, they've planted that. to convince him you know, again, that's the sort of thing that DS9 does all the time. So he's sort of playing with our expectations. So the one thing that I discovered, which I thought was really great, and it's absolutely down to memory, Alfred. It never occurred to me, although of course it should, is that we're on the runabout Rio Grande, which obviously means Great River. And so we have a great river in the A plot and the B plot, which I just think is very cute. You know, I think that they do a decent job of tying these plots together thematically, even though the B plot is just agreeable filler, I think. I love that promenade say, you know. I know it's been an obvious thing to say. It's just so nice to have somewhere so roomy and a bit, what am I going to say, exotic, but just a bit different from what you normally see in Star Trek. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Just different colours and sort of weird elements, weird design elements thrown together and stuff. I think it's a really, really great. I saw corridors in next gen and in Voyager. very boring in comparison, you know? And they fill it full of it and they don't at the moment because they do it repairs. Normally I just fill it full of extras. So it feels busy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, here we go. It started. So he's traded 2 things already. and then it goes, yeah, well that's the rumour that they want it. he goes, you've done all this based on a rumour? Rule of acquisition 168, whisper your way to success. I love how he says words to live by. That's okay. This is where he gives him his authorisation code. He thinks it's going to be nice and easy at this point. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And we, I think that we know that it's going to turn out fine. Don't you think? Oh, it's so long the tone of this. Yeah, there's no way, yeah. No, no, no. But I think, you know, like he, we know that he's going to get in trouble and that it's, it's all going to turn out fine. But putting the desk on the line is really funny. Like that's a really funny twist. Well, it's carer's reaction. We'll get to it. And the replacement's even worse. Have you noticed how these, how these runabouts used to be the size of a cupboard? Now they're the size of a reasonable sized hotel room. Yeah, yeah, they're pretty big. They are pretty big. And yet, the exterior hasn't changed at all. Is this a is this a cheapy then? If we're all in the runabout? Is this a cheapy? I suppose there's a fair bit of CGI in this? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's, you know, they're all cheapies from our point of view now in the distant future, I think. So there's Zarafil of the other Wayoon, and here's Tamar. This whole sequence is great. And it's just the scene between 4 actors on a screen, but it's so funny. So Jeffrey Coombes says that this is his favourite episode and that he did his best to try and make them different. I think he's... Yeah. Yeah, I think he does. I feel like the way you know Kardashian is sort of more the way you and we're used to. Yes. It seems a bit devious, you know, and overcomplicated. Whereas the other one, he feels very gentle, doesn't he? And he just feels like a nice guy. Yeah, yeah. Like, I think that the interesting thing, though, is that they both share the same faith in the founders and the way that Damar is able to get him to kind of persuade him to go against that is interesting. And it does put Demari is on the, you know, like he's, he has the upper hand for some of this, I think. Did your ear is line then? Clones keeping track of them with a full-time job. 7 of them Casey. Just calm down, you can cope. Oh, listen to me. are you calling Odo your enemy? I was talking about the Federation, as you're very aware. I love it when the same actor is being bitchy with himself. Yes, yeah, yeah. Oh, here we go. The termination implant. So we've setting it up for the conclusion of the episode. Is that new? We've never heard of that before. Okay, of course. I mean, you could have just picked up a gun. But it's... I guess it might have been. If you're taking prisoner. Yeah, yep. I think, though, it also makes the gods awful. And there's that one moment, you know, where Odo tries to convince Weon that the founders are not gods. They're not good. They've just genetically engineered you to believe that they're gods. And the response to that is so perfect, which is, yes, that is exactly the sort of thing that God's would. Doesn't he say, why would you be a god if there's no one to serve you? Or something. That's the lie. And so, and there is cruelty in it, isn't there? Because he expects that activating it to be painless and it's not. And he's been told it's painless, but that's wrong. You know, so the cruelty of the founders as gods is pretty interesting here. And it's not centred in the episode, but it's just. It's an extra layer, isn't it? on top of what we've already seen with the Gemazar and their addiction to the Y, which is also very cruel. Yeah, yeah. And just things like the quickening where they've, you know blighted entire planets and things like that. Like, they're a credible threat. Yeah. If you do that to your own people. What the hell are you going to do for the enemy, you know? And that's what's interesting about it? Remember when we did sort of series 3 of enterprise and we had the sort of the Zindi who just sort of came in a variety of shapes and sizes and sort of how crap and unearned that was? Whereas this is done really properly, isn't it? And they sort of piece it together. Like they don't have a grand plan, I don't think. Like, I think that by this point we have the 4 to the Jemhadar and the founders and their relationships and all of that very clearly established, but they make it up as they go along, don't they? They ceded the Dominion in series 2. They came along at the end of series 2 and then in 3 and four, they did a series of character tales, like slower tales where they examined the power structure inside the Dominion and, you know each of the three, the, you know, the founders, the Vorta and the Gemadar. That meant when it came to the war stuff, when we were becoming more serialised, all that stuff had been established, and you can start doing interesting dramatic things like this with it, where you start surprising people. That's quite, you do, you need the time. You need the time to establish things in order for them to pay off. Enterprise had one season. That was it was ill defined as well. Like you probably could do it in 26 episodes. That's 26 hours of telly. Yeah. So, so is this the 1st that we've seen of Tamar drinking? No. Do you remember he had that woman on his arm in Shadows and Symbols? Oh, yeah. And he was drinking, one arm was the woman. One arm was the drink. That's right. That's right. That's where he went, what a what a charming woman. That's right. I might have to kill her. But you never, you always know tomorrow's out of his death, don't you? Like, you're never in any now. He's not here though, is he? Like, he actually, that's why he offers Wayuna drink, don't you think? Because he's in charge because Wayoon's embarrassed about the fact that it was a Wayoon who has defected and so he's on the back foot. And here we have a situation where DeMar can handle the situation because he doesn't give a shit about whether he kills Odo or not but Wayoon does and look at what's at stake. And look at them. Do you know what I mean? Like, it, like, he's absolutely in charge and, and, um, and, uh Wayoon isn't. Oh, Combs is totally stealing this scene. He's not even saying a word. He's just staring off camera. I do think Casey Biggs is great, but oh, he can do something with stillness. He's great. Look at him smiling here as he suggests this. Look at him smiling. It's wonderful. Look. Remember we said about reunion last week about how extraordinary it was to see things from the enemy's point of view. Well, we've got to a point in DS9 now, where there's an entire subplot running on Cardassia with the enemy. It makes the show so much more interesting as a result. And often it's camp like, and that's kind of a fun thing. We love that too. Usually camp. But I mean, this is great. It's actually fun to see Tamara on the look at him. absolutely winning this scene. It's awesome. Come on, I do love. I do love how Wyung doesn't even say yes, you know, destroyed a runabout, he just does it with a look. Yeah, yeah, but he also just walks off. He doesn't like, you know, um, look, uh, have another drink Casey. What is that? It's treacle, isn't it? No, no, no, no. The I think the glass is has a sort of is not glass. for reasons of... See you, Esrie. Just say, bye, Nicole. Thanks for your scene. The lift's working this week. Sort of. How weird does that set? How does weird does his office look without the desk in it? It's awesome, isn't it? So this is the 1st time. He only has to say one word. Nog. And, and, um, and it's, I love the idea that it's a guy at such a lower decks kind of conceit where there's this guy who wants to get his photograph behind everyone's desks and he's already got he's studied with all the best. Captain DeSoto, Captain Picard. I had to look up Captain DeSoto, but of course Captain DeSoto was the person who recommended Riker, like who Riker served under before the Enterprise. I think the direction in this subplot is really great because they keep doing comic cuts. So you went there, straight to not going, don't worry, chief. I'll get the desktop. So, we're trusted to sort of very quickly go into the next bit, and then later on, we cut straight to Martok going, where are my clays there's our blood, why? No, he doesn't have the stabiliser. But we don't need an induction modulator. I feel like they're taking a piss out the technobab war bit as well. They are a little bit, but remember self stealing stem bolts, which actually date all the way back from progress, and that was, like it was, uh, you know, Jake saying that we didn't need self stealing stem bolts, and indeed we don't actually know what they are. Watch Eisenberg's performance here, where he talks about the, you know, the great river and the material continuum and all that. sort of wistfully. No matter how much they put that federation dogma inside of him. He's still a Ferengi, isn't he? He still believes in this stuff. But it's also that thing too, which I think is wonderful where at the very beginning, he, the 1st thing that he asks, uh, O'Brien is what's his 1st name, you know, who's his wife, what does he want? you know because he still thinks like that. And this is a strength that he brings. You know, being a Ferengi, is not a is isn't a liability here. It's helping him help O'Brien do his job better. I love how this is explained, all these 1000000s of worlds, filled with too much of one thing and not enough of another, and there's like a mighty river flowing through it, fabulous, from have to want to have again. It's really good, isn't it? And he even talks about navigating the river with grace as well. It's wonderful. And the river will provide, you know. But it's also, it's also, like, you know, when the Frank, you were introduced and they were capitalists and they were evil and we felt, you know, superior to them because we're from our socialist techno utopia where money's been banished, here, being a Ferengi is a good thing and there's something lyrical and wonderful about the Great River, I think. How far have we moved on from basically insulting and controlling the Ferengi and TNG? Yeah, yeah. No, here it's that thing where we've joined the Federation and the Federation benefit from having a Ferengi member. You take DSI out of the equation. I think the Ferengi would be considered just a massive, terrible joke. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, well, they were the big band for series one, weren't they? And then it turned out they were terrifying. Armond Shimmerman took on 7 years in latex just to make up his performance. exactly. Oh, this is where he goes. He's really good. Look at what your people have done for us, Odo. It's it's quietly very powerful dialogue. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and they have something in common, don't they? They have a sort of weird relationship with the rest of the founders. I love these too. It's very sweet where you ask him, do you think they'll make you do the debriefing? Because he's scared? Yes, possibly. He says, possibly, you know, like he doesn't automatically say no. Oh, here we go. Here comes the gem at all. I do think we need a bit of action at this point, though. It has all been talked. Yeah. And I do quite like as well. No, no, isn't as sophisticated as the CGI we get now. Of course it isn't. It's 20 years ago, but there's sort of the way the ships are moving. Thank you. I feel old. The way the ships are moving. It's so much more dynamic than it was, you know, sort of 5 or 6 years ago. So the thing that it made me think of was, was the Pegasus, which I actually think it does pretty well with those scenes inside the asteroid belt, but here we're in like a Kuiper belt, which is where Pluto is. Pluto's been sort of downgraded to be a sort of big Kuyper belt object. And so this is what's at the kind of perimeter of the solar system. And I think it makes for a really interesting visual because it is different from the sort of fast moving rocks that we're used to seeing in an asteroid belt in this show. I really like this. The sort of the environmental conditions means it affects the inside of the runabout as well. So they are in real danger. Oh, I love this because this was the point where I'm 1st watching where Wei Yin helps I don't destroy the Jem'adar shoot, I'm going okay, why would he do that? Right. If this is all a trick. Yeah. So I, yeah, my, my, my belief in where this episode was going was crumbling. I think probably once the other way in arrives, do you know what I mean? Unless he's a pre-recording or something, because you're not going to leave the episode with 2 Wayons running around. Oh, here's that bit. Has it ever occurred to you that they've built, you know, the fact that you think they're gods into your genetic character? Well, of course. Yes, of course, of course they did that. How else do you expect gods to behave? Exactly. Oh, here's Rome. I just love these characters, though, but I could just hang with these characters. So, and now Rom is wearing a Bajoran uniform, and so he's just when does this happen? He gets... Series 5, the assignment. Okay. is where O'Brien uses him terribly in that when Keiko's taken over by the Parl Rafe, and he uses ROM as a scapegoat, and then at the end, he promotes him for basically doing what he's told. Yeah. So he's our new Eddington, do you think? He's someone that O'Brien bosses around. Here we go. It's another one of those cuts. At least we've not gone. There'll be nothing else going missing. Where are my cases? I've got Ryan. I mean, it's total sitcom, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. And it's partly just to get wharf involved as well, I think, in the episode for contractual reasons he needs something to do. But that's... Sorry to interrupt. That bloody screen on the wall. that shows, you know, with all the different ships. They get so much out of that because there's clearly cost them a lot of money by the end of the season. They see that that screen a lot. Oh, here she comes. Here she comes. Salomi gens. Yeah. I think by the end of this season. does match Amanda Plummer for being total badass evil founder. She is pretty great. She is pretty great. Oh yeah, look at that. So we get to see that before we hear where you're in 6's description. of what the founders are like. We sort of need it, are we? You need a demonstration and then the context. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And she's not even aware of it and she makes it go away. I think that's really interesting. The twist I love is how they fed that into previous episodes of DS 9. So when Odo went to Earth in season 4 and went to Starfleet Medical, that's when they infected him with the virus. And that's what we discover towards the end. So Bishir's doing tests on Odo because he wants to, I don't know create organs that can automatically feel and shape inside people. So it takes a bit of Odo away, then learns about the virus and then does dig in into Odo's records as to when this changed and it was then. It's really well done. And then suddenly then Odo is condemning the Federation saying it's funny, you know, you're accused the founders of doing these terrible things, but when the chips are down, what you've done. Yeah, it's really good. And it gives a good reason for Amanda Plummer to be as pissed as she is in Picard as well. Yeah, in fact, that's quite good, isn't it? Look, he's eating a pizza with chopsticks. There we go Well, he does it so playful. Yeah, all right, I'm done with that food. It's been sitting there cold for hours. Yeah, that's right. I love his snap, his feeling. Oh, this is great as well, where we learn the backstory of the water as these sort of simple forest dwelling creatures that that would have been very inoffensive, but then along came the founders and they genetically re-engineered them into like war criminals. But there's also a kind of, I mean, for both the Jemmedar and the Vorta. There's a kind of violence done to them, like a sort of existential violence, like that making them exist like this is what they've done. And so you've got the Jemadar who live for 9 years or 7 years and are addicted to this drug and have to obey the founders. And then you've got the vorta who can't taste anything. There just seems to be a sort of petty kind of cruelty to that. Did you did you hear Odo's line then? He was basically you and me. Uh, where you goes, well, have you not heard the backstory about the water? Oh, no, goes. No, but I imagine you're going to tell me all about it. Oh, that's you and me on every night. And I do like the fact as well that the reason why the founders are as paranoid and suspicious as they are is because they were mistreated. So it's fear, basically. Yeah. It's not they're just evil. Well, I also like this too, because this is something that Wayoon is able to give Odo. You know, Odo knows so little at this point, and Wayoon is telling you know, telling the story of one of his ancestors, I guess. you know, and so he's learning more about what the founders are. Like he's gaining something from this. It's all just adding, isn't it? It's adding to the characters, it's adding to the mythos. adding to the backstory. And what about that? This is what you can do with running storylines and consequences in a show. Well, also because they're sort of clever. Like, I don't think they plan for a 2nd when Odo went to Starfleet headquarters to get checked out. No, they didn't plan. You know, they decided, oh, wait, how about, you know, back then maybe... You can see Ron Moore, Ira Bear. Renee, that bit where Bashir's runabout was inexplicably left outside the asteroid. Let's make that up what point? Yeah. But they are clever enough writers to do that, to pick out details and to do something with them. So um, Odo infects them. Yes, so when Odo, um, morphed with the female shapeshifter at the end of series 4. So in the middle of series 4 is when it happened when he went to the Earth, and at the end of series 4, do you remember when Odo starts melting and they go back to he merges with her there and that's where he passed it on? And it's a slow release, obviously, because it didn't hit them until series 7. Yeah, it's a slow release poison, just to sort of wipe them out. Yeah. But what about him? Why doesn't he have it? Well, he starts to now, doesn't he? Oh, okay. So by tacking into the wind, he's, yeah, at the end of that, he's a horrible scabby miss. Oh, okay, all right. And that's why we have the episode in the last 10 episodes where Bashir and O'Brien go into Sloan's mind from Section 31 because it was Section 31 that did it. Oh, okay. To get the cure, which then Odo has to use for leverage with the female Shapeshifter in the last episode. very neat. Ah, there we go. So this is actually bringing the whole thing to an end. This is making it be a thing. But doing it in a way that it is sort of exploiting what's been. I just think that's really clever. But I think that that makes that's what makes this episode and this plot work. Isn't it that it introduces such a big thing? And this is the sort of thing that Star Trek the Next Generation did last week, isn't it, in reunion? But this is just sort of par for the course. This is another day at the Office of Deep Space 9 that does this sort of stuff all the time and it really works. well, isn't it? So we've got Odo possibly he's going to be the last of his kind. There, that's what I was talking about there. The way he sort of just started collapsing towards the console, as he's learning that his people are dying. He can't do it with his face. He can do it with his eyes and he can do it with his body, but he just looks crumpled and beaten. It's a good actor that basically you take away their tools and they still convey the emotion. And he's a sort of slightly dumb idea though, isn't it? Well, I just love him being a shapeshifter anyway. And the fact that he's different is why he's had all these great storylines. Of course. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Oh, I love these Jemadar ships. It's like a swarm of insects. That looks great there with the sun. Like the way that those those objects are sort of lit from behind. And you know, even though it's a tiny... It is a tiny bit sort of cartoony because that's where CGI was at this point. I think it's quite ambitious for the time. to do a sort of ice, ice skate like this. Yeah, I think it looks really good. I think it looks great. We make fun of the, you know, the CG on Enterprise. I mean, that looks that looks great as it goes. I like how 2 of the rocks bounce off the runabout as well. Well, it's really low gravity, you know, it's pretty great. So awesome. I think you can get away with, you know, ice fragments in a way you can't with buildings and people. So when we watch those enterprise episodes, that it was, you know the outline of a person walking. Yeah, those cars are terrible. You can have an indistinct ice fragment. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Only a guard could think of such a thing. Is it a painting outside the window? No, it's keyed in. It's so camp. I love him. We become the ice. Oh, this is my favourite scene in the whole thing. It's so great. Scare his reaction. When she comes in and just goes, get it out of here. This is Julian's only scene as well, isn't it? Like, this is his proper saying. He's such a bitch. listen to him. Julian, I need help, not sarcism. He knows he's in he's in dire shit when the captain gets back. So what's this? Maybe Noggs decided to make a run for it. Why is he saying that? Oh, he's gonna paint it. That what a dick. Now everyone's piling in the roof. They do that look. Everyone looks around at him. I know Mars Hawk does exactly what Cisco did earlier, a thinly veiled threat. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You better get my wine back all right. Did you see then? It's a weird point to make, but as the door opened and Kira walked in. You could see the whole of ops behind her and there was loads of people working. Like they didn't have to do that. No, no, we wouldn't have even thought twice about it. They are pretty generous with the extras on this show. Yeah, it feels like a, like a workplace, isn't it? It does feel real. Oh, now look at Wayne has a thermal blanket and his faith now, I guess. Oh, bless him. So what's he what's he doing? Oh, he can't breathe. I was also cold, but just sort of hugging himself. Would does does he suffer from cold? I don't even know. Did we... Yeah, he does. Do you remember that episode where, Oh, no, he was a human being at that point when him and... were going up that mountain. Right, right, right. So he does remember what it's like to be cold and airless. D, I love these ice fragments exploding like this. It looks great, doesn't it? It's really good We're definitely... We're coming on, don't we? We are coming on in the effect stakes. And then the runabout literally zooms out of one of the fragments. Oh, it must be coming now. It's so good. Here we go. Here we go. Oh, awesome. Straight past the camera. Straight to the camera. I think you remember when they did one little ship when the runabout was miniatureized. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Honey, I've shrunk the runabout. Well, they did so many effect shots for the runabout there that they had all of them to use again, you know? It looks really good. Come on. is great. Oh, I did so rarely, though. This little bit of flame in the runabout and he pulls up the tiniest little fire extinguisher you've ever seen. Why does he? what's he doing? I don't even understand why... He knows now that they are actually going to blow them up, doesn't he? Yeah, only one thing he can do. And that is... Oh, you think he's, oh, that's why he says I leave only to serve you. It's not, I'll go and get the fire extinguisher. I'm going to go and press my thing. Yeah, totally. He knows he's going to. Wow. So straight away afterwards, doesn't he? He's like, call off the ships. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. And, you know, this is a character we've we've only met in this episode, technically. And so for this to be as touching as it is, I think it's quite quite a feat. It's really good, isn't it? I've saved your life and the dominions as well. He still believes in the Dominion. Yeah, of course he does. I obey the founders in all things. And I think that's the interesting thing too. Because when it came to it, Like, he felt bad. Wyun doesn't join in and you see Demar crowing over Wyun where he gets Wyun to just kind of ignore the fact that they're gods and just allow Odo to be killed. And here, you know, like I believe this. I sincerely regret any inconvenience we may have caused you. Like, I actually believe that. Please have a statement. You would DS died in suicide. The last episode we watch had a suicide in it. you remember? which one was that? She jumped off the promenade. Oh, yes, was it that long ago? Goodness me. Oh, this. Yeah, here we go. Here we go. Yeah, that. I thought that that was cruel. That thing too, where you activate your thing and then discover actually, no, it's really brutally painful and you've just been told that it's fine. Tell me I haven't failed. I've served you well. Yes. I was trying to say this. You've got my gratitude, and then he just gives him it. He gives him what he wants. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And the look on Wayne's face as he lets out that last breath. Now watch what Odo does here. Watch what Odo does because all he can't really do anything. He just kind of looks around because he doesn't quite know what to do. Like he looks over there. He doesn't know what to do next. you know what I mean? Like, it's like that's him, that's him emoting at the death of this guy and really feeling it properly. I do like how he goes to sort of touch him and then he can't quite do it once he's dead. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Oh no, back to the comedy now. We're back. right. I love this. It's so adorable, of course. And Noggs there. There was never any problem. Just wiping it clean. I came in this morning and found Edson knock. So funny. So ridiculous. Why does he always give truncated estimates of time? He said, I could do it in 8 hours. You've got two. All right, I will. Yeah. Well, doesn't doesn't Scotty say in relics that he you have to maintain your reputation as a miracle worker? That's right, yeah. Bloody. Don't ever give them the correct time. Never lost faith in the great material continuum. The river will provide. He says it. He says that, doesn't he? The war just got choppy again. And he gets blood wine out of it. The river is being generous. You know, he had no blood wine, now he has blood wine because the blood wine the river got hold of was even better. I really like. I think Michael Dawn can turn a comedy line. I like it here where he jumps in and goes 2359. A very good year. It's like, I've only got 3 lines in this episode. make them count. All right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And now everyone knows about his cousin Gant. You know, he's sending some things Gant's way. Look at him going off. He goes, how much does he want from him? Yes, that's it. He's completely on board with a great material continuum. It's wonderful. Now I do, I really like this last scene as well, because it is drawing conclusion under the episode, whatever side wins in this war, I'm going to lose. But I also like too, and I was waiting for it to happen and I'm glad it did, because Kira is religious as well. And, you know, like it's all a little bit laboured and obvious and stuff, but I'm glad that we went there. I like, yeah, look, she's going to say it, I can't prove it, but then I like that, yeah. Yeah, I think all of that's just a little bit obvious. But, but it's, it's good. You know, this is the 2 of them explaining the plot to each other at the end of the episode. But yes, that... Well, I like that news when it comes to the end of the war, we actually managed to duck this because he manages to save these people and the Federation remains intact. Yeah. Yeah. But he's he's instrumental. If he wasn't there, that wouldn't have happened. That last attack on Cardassian would have taken place and the casualties would have been appalling. Yeah, but I think I think that their decision, you know, to make him central to the resolution of the war is the right decision to make, isn't it? Because he's the founder, and again, that's never the intention going in, is it? Like they don't know who he is anymore than we do in series one? And then they just decide to make him... Oh my god, wouldn't it be great if... What episode's that? That's the beginning of series 3, isn't it? search where they find them. Oh, no, but isn't there, isn't there, um, that he goes into the Gamma Quadrant by himself and there's a little girl and a man. Oh, that series one. Yeah, yeah. vortex. Vortex, but that sort of lays the groundwork, doesn't it? Yes, definitely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then, yeah, and then two, you get the Ferengi episode where they just mentioned the Dominion, then there's a few mentions of what the Dominion have done in the Gamma Quadrant, and then in the search, they sort of put it all together. that makes it happen. And that's the season 3 opener, is it? Yes, yeah. Yeah. Very good it is too. Look how much we talked about previous episodes of DS9 and how many episodes to come in that. Because this is basically a point between A and C, you know. Yeah. A very good episode in its own right, but we don't talk about any other 90s show on this level. None of them are working on this level. I really like that. There's so much substance to this. You know, like, and sometimes you say, sometimes it's a bit obvious, but there's there's so many sort of plates in the air spinning. And they just, they keep adding to it as well. I just think it's at this point in DS9's run. It's the best of 90s trek. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think so too. And it is just the fact that they've decided to just go for it. And, uh, I guess the only thing I'm disappointed by at the end is the Ducart and Kai Winn thing. Although when we did the changing face of evil, they were pretty entertaining. So maybe they did make the right decision there. What is that? What about Soulbore? I'll take care of the body. That was pretty fun, actually, but I think about it. So maybe it does land. Maybe they don't drop a plane. You know, you're right. Where there's so much nuance elsewhere. It's so fucking obvious. I mean, it's come. So it's very funny. She has that bit where she dies where she goes, you know, then I'll stop you. And she picks up the book to throw it in the flames and he just goes, are you still here and kills them? Brilliant moment. But it's a very sort of 1970s camp horror. It's ridiculous compared to everything else that's gone. I mean, you follow that up with a scene with Garak talking about the losses on Cardassia in the aftermath of the war, and tonally it's a bit jarring. I guess, but, you know, like Deep State Stone operates on all sorts of tonal levels and stuff and like we saw there where we were sort of cutting from the terrible death of Wave 6 and then you know, we cut back to something preposterous happening on in the B plot. So I think that's probably okay. But there is real fun to be had, isn't there watching them discover what their show is about and find things to do with what they've already set up and that's the real fun of it, I think. Two last things I'd like to say. One is, I think this is a very good episode of Deep Space 9. I don't think it's one of the all-time highlights and it just goes to show how high the batting average is at this point. And two, this just goes to show what a loss to the acting industry Renee Aubichonoir, and Aaron Eisenberg were, because they, I was brilliant. They were both savvy calls to hire those two. and they both are under layers and layers of layers for 7 years. I mean, by all accounts, uh, Renae tore off that mask in the last episode and threw it at I remember. I'm done. He's got it up on his wall. He's on his wall. hideous. torn off mask. But despite enduring that indignity for 7 years or 2 of them, they both took sort of one note characters in the pilot and did incredible things with them. So yeah, so bravo to Renee and Aaron, and that this episode showcases both of them in a terrific way. It's a thing that we kind of overlook that it's not just the writers discovering new material or new things in what they've already written and shot, but it's also discovering things that actors are good at as well and giving them the opportunity to do those things. And that charm that Aaron Eisenberg has means that he works in that B plot, even though Jake's not around. And in fact, watching him and O'Brien together is really, really enjoyable. And then, of course, I think we knew going in that Renee was incredible and he absolutely proves it again and again. Then what they do is they turn it on his head and they surprise you. So then they make, I don't know, Renee, the umpire, and take me out to the hola street. this mad comedy episode. And it's hilarious. And then they give Aaron Eisenberg. It's only a paper moon where he has to break down at the end of the episode. And it's one of the most moving scenes you've ever seen. They were they were incredibly lucky with the actors they they got for DS9. I think the material is always good, but the acting is always great. Yeah. All right, it's time for us to pick what we're going to be watching next time, and it's my turn on the randomiser, and I have chosen the following series. Star Trek, the original series, Star Trek, the Next Generation. Star Trek Voyager, and Star Trek Enterprise. Oh, there's a good chance we'll get a dog there. A dud for sure. All right. So let's press the button and see. I don't want people to start thinking we really like Star Trek, you know, we've been so positive lately. Yeah, I know. We've been ridiculous. So this is your random Star Trek Voyager episode. It's an episode that features the best Robert. It's Tinker Tanner, Dr. Spy. Is it terrible? right? It's wonderful. You know, that's got the bit at the beginning where he sings, um Tuvok. I understand you are a Vulcan man. You have just gone without 47 years about. It's far too good. Press it again. Such a good. Okay. All right. Trouble is, we have got to get through these doubts, you know. Yeah, I know. this is another one. It's your random Star Trek Voyager episode is one. Season 4 episode 25. Tom Solensky gave that 5 stars, you know, that was the 1st one he gave 5 stars to. I watched it reasonably recently. Certainly after we'd done the killing game, I think, because it's the guy from the killing game, the real Nazi in the killing game who's not a hirogen. It's a bit of nothing, isn't it? It is a bit nothing. I'll puss it again. Cool. We could get worse than that. I think it has be this one. Is it terrible? It's another Voyager. No-ish. So it's season one of Star Trek Voyager. This could go either way. Episode 14. Faces. It's B'lana Split. It's a banana split. Do you know what? I love this when I 1st saw it, because I loved all the horror. Yeah. It's a pretty nasty episode. But... There's definitely there are some action choices in this episode. Yeah I think we should do that. Yeah, why not? It's an early banana. It's doing the sort of, you know, yeah, the reluctant Klingon. We haven't done the Videans, yeah. And it's one that we always had a nickname for. So I think that we definitely. I saw a time where Voyager was sort of half-heartedly attempting to carve out an area of space for a little while. You know, and this is one of those points, which is all right nice. We do like early voyager, quite a bit, actually. I think we do. Yeah, I think let's do it. I mean, we've done a couple of ones, you know, but we've done state of flux and this. We've done all the best ones. That means we're leaving all the dregs till the end. That's all right. That's all right. All right. There's no shortage of them. Bring it on, banana split. You've been listening to Untitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford and Nathan Bottomley. We're online at untitled Star Trek project.com, where you can find subscription links and links to our social media accounts. Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceran and the theme was composed by Cameron Lamb. This episode was recorded on the 16th of January 2024 and released on the 19th of January. We'll see you next time for Star Trek Voyager, Faces. Yeah. Yeah. Are they better than the cast of Voyager? Voyager has... As a whole. Sure. Sorry, are we still talking in the episode now? No. Okay. No, because Voyager Voyager definitely has... Yes. And to prove they're not as good as the DS9, they are sort of levels of competence with the robbers. Yeah. But I mean, you know, Picado is great. Kate's great. Ethan Phillips is great. Oh, sure. Roxanne Dawson is great. You know, who else? You couldn't survive 7 years with an entirely terrible cast. I mean it just wouldn't have gone on, would it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. What happened is we kept seeing glimmers of hope when it was a Jayway episode or a 7 episode? that's right. A Torres episode, like, okay, well, we can endure Harry King. Tom Paris. Jakotay or Naomi Wildman episodes to get to the good ones. Oh my god. Naomi wild one. Those children grow up so fast on the starships. I think it might be like a space thing. relativity thing. It's a good choice, though, isn't it? Why would you have kids when they're in danger every week? It never makes any sense having kids on the ship. No, it was a dumb idea. I don't know what the point was. I thought they it would open up new plots, you know. why they make a great point of it in deadlock. Do you remember when Naomi Wildman is born? Obviously, Voyager splits into 2 and in the other timeline, Naomi Wildman exists, but just for about 10 minutes, Samantha Wildman during a terrible action sequence, loses the baby. Oh, okay. She dies and I thought, my god, they're really showing how dangerous it is. families living on this ship. But then, of course, forgery is duplicated and yeah, yeah. There's a live. Well she gets taken over to the one that she was killed in. So that's how they get around there. It's a big reset, but it makes the point. Yeah, that's a good one, that one. The thing that I like about it is that you think the ship, you think you know which ship is going to survive because it's the one that isn't sort of just completely trashed, you know, and about to be destroyed, and then it gets invaded by the Medians, doesn't it? Is that what happens? And then, and everyone gets killed and so the crap, mind you, the crappy ship is back to being spick and span the following week, but it wouldn't be Voyager if it wasn't. The thing I love about that. I think it's the sort of thing you were talking about before, you know, where they can't get the eyelines right with the screens. Well, in that one, you've got 2 Kate Mulgrews, and they just can't position them properly. So they're apparently having a dialogue, but one of them is always looking sort of off camera. It's really bad. And Jonathan Frakes nails it on his like 3rd outing or something. Like it's, uh, Jonathan Franks nailed it on his 1st outing, the offspring. Yeah, so good. But I meant the eyeliners thing. You know, the moment where where Duras is looking at wharf walking up the bridge. Well, you remember I said he's an actor's direct say, you know, as an actor, he has to look at another actor. So maybe in the direction he's like, right, okay. I'll make it like it's 2 actors looking at each other. Oh, it's the thing. yeah that's right. It's the thing that I pointed out where the reaction shot of Michael Dawn, we get before we see what he's seeing, and you see him looking at the transporter pad, and then you see him look down at something short on the transporter pad, and then you can't, you know, and it's like Riker letting Dawn tell that before we actually see it, which I thought was pretty good. And then that brilliant shot of them going down the corridor from Alexander's point of view, where looming up at walls. So much fun. That's a great episode too. Yeah, we've been too positive. We should press the button and get something terrible. I've kind of forgot that we have to press the button. Where's my? Oh, wait, I'll get my iPad. That was just my iPad case. I realise it is entirely your choice. I do wonder if we should stick to the 90s, though, because we've got so many 90s episodes to get through still. Oh yeah, I know. No. Okay. Probably done with else in my pocket. I rewrote my bio on the, um, untitled Star Trek Project page. To mention all of the additional podcasts. that I'm now doing quite a list. Okay. It's so positive. Let's hope it gets something really awful. Series one, TNG. Series 3, TOS. something like that. Okay. All right, it's time for us to pick what we're going to be watching next time.