Rocks and Shoals

Hey, Joe. Hi. So this is a bit exciting because I actually discovered watching this last night that this episode of Deep Space Nine, which is series 6, episode two, Rocks and Shoals, is probably a top 10 episode. It's really, really extraordinarily good. And I think it's probably better than 2 that we've already done in the Pale Moonlight and Sige of AR 558. I think it's really, really good. I think I'm going to agree with you. I do think rocks and shoals is spoken about in the same breath as those 2 episodes. So it's not like a shocking statement to put them on par with it or even higher. Yeah. I wrote a message to you saying, I think this is so good. It's top 10 90s trek. Yeah. Well, maybe Trek. Do you know what I mean? Like, it really blim it. It's really properly good, I think. It has the limitations that 90s track has, but it's just well written and well acted and thoughtful and interesting. I just think it's clever. and it has a magnificent guest star or maybe even 2 magnificent guest stars, but like Phil Morris as the head Jem Hadar is amazing and turns out to have like an incredible Star Trek pedigree. Yeah. He's a tiny child in an army helmet in mirri. He's a hot young cadet in Star Trek. He is hot Klingon bodyguard guy from looking for Palmark in all the wrong places. We'll just point out because I do bring my mother into this every now and again, she was hypnotised by his arse in that episode. Yeah, no, so we'll keep an eye out for that this time. And he's the, um, the astronaut in one small step in Voyager. So he's been in a lot of Star Trek and he's so good in this. Like, he really properly sells it. And then you've got Christopher Shea's Kievan, the Vorta, who is also magnificent. Slimy bugger. Yeah, I want to talk about him quite a lot. And as you said to me, in the thread. Thank goodness he gets his very ignoble ending in the magnificent Ferengi. That's right. He gets... brilliant rifter. But like, I just think on every level you could kind of critique this. I think for 90s trek, this is visually very interesting. they go outside and more on that later because they go outside somewhere and then they add special effects to make it look even more ambitious than it is because that ocean isn't there. That's all that's all digitally added. I think it uses all the regulars really well. We've talked about 90s banter before and I think they get that bang on here. The humour is just right. The lines are great. Ron Moore. And he can turn a phrase, you know? He's probably the one writer in 90s trek that can. So thank God. He's writing as much DS9 as he is. I think the dilemma that they put Cisco in. is really interesting and has quite a shocking conclusion. The Kira plot, which appears very quiet, has the most shocking moment of the entire episode for me when I 1st watched it, my stomach turned. I mean, it's just, it's, it's really good drama. We laugh and say, well, Star Trek isn't great drama. I think this might be one of those times when it is a genuinely good bit of drama. Yeah, I mean, I have one or 2 reservations and I think there's one scene that I don't like very much, but I think it's incredibly good. And, like, it's clever in a way that 90s Shrek often isn't. I was really, really impressed. And the other thing too, right, is that it manages to be an individual episode with 2 plots that are both about something that both have a beginning, a middle, and an end, even though it's part of this kind of 6 episode arc, which in itself is a great idea as well. If we lose the station at the end of series 5, retaking it at the end of episode 2 of series 6 is super boring. And so making them earn it, giving them sort of 6 episodes in which they are yet to retake the station and there's a new status quo is really interesting. Would it surprise you to learn that the studio did want them to retake the station at Ira Bank? Oh, I'm not. Duck his heels in and went, no, that's too easy. We don't want this to be easy. It's like you said, uh, with basics, um, part one, is it's that cliffhanger where the premise of the show is threatened. And that's exactly what happens with a call to ask. But with Voyager, of course, in basics part two, we do get shit back and we're back on our way to a TOS, you know, flashback episode in next week. Whereas, can I say about these 6 episodes, for me, I love the last 10 episodes of DS9, I do think they are great, but they are a little bit flabby in places and the melodrama is on another level. I know we love it. But it is crazy over the top at times. And I can see why some people win. What the hell is this? Kiss me, Julian, you know. These 6 episodes. I think, and there's quite a bold statement to make. I think this is my favourite section of Star Trek, from a time to stand, to Sacrifice of Angels, I think they do really interesting stuff. They take the characters to some very dark places. They throw in some amazing set. They've learned. They've had 5 years of storytelling. They've made a ton of mistakes. They've learnt what works on this show, and they've decided to take it up to the next level. They do that in Way of the Warrior, and then they do it again at the end of series 5. And with these 6 episodes, all the potential that was there locked away in emissary is bearing fruit and it's terrific television. I remember when it went out, people were responding to it amazingly. I think Paramount were thinking about closing down the show at the end of 6 and there was no guarantee of 7. And I think this went out and it can't have hurt their decision too, because there was such a positive reaction to all of this especially like when it came to sacrifice of angels when people were going, oh, it's just all going to be very disappointing. And then we were getting space battles on a level that we had never seen before. I just think this is incredible stuff and it's the best part of my favourite Star Trek show. So I cannot wait to start talking about it. Oh, brilliant. All right, well, what do you think? Should we start? You have some things. Oh, I do. Yes, I do. Well, it's just about one of the regular complaints that you have about 90s Strek is the... Yeah, you have a fucking go outside. artificial exteriors as exemplified by the churchyard in subrosa. Can you think of any others? Yeah, just all of those terrible, terrible planet sets in like next time. Yes, he always wanted to masterpiece society. What is it? I say, how could we lose all of this? Yep, stock colony set one, like all of that. So here they decide to go outside and do some shooting. And I don't think they could have done this episode without it. I don't know how they would have done. Well, actually, no, seizure Bay off 55A's all inside, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think it suffers from it a bit. Although it does mean that we can have night shoots, which we could never have afforded if we'd actually been outside. Things can happen at night. By all accounts, it was torturous to film. These episodes. But apparently they kept that they were going out on the shortest days of the year as well, sunlight wise. So they have to keep wrapping up about a 3rd 3rd of the way through the day because they just didn't have any light to shoot in. Um, Oh my god, it was so hot, says Aaron Eisenberg. I understand it was 108 degrees. Oh, Gary Hussle. 120 degrees at the bottom of the pit conveys Laura Richards. My whole crew was fainting, Jonathan West reports. It was just blistering, baking hot, and the makeup was melting on camera. Ron Moore groans. In other words, it was a typical Deep Space 9 location shoot. Who is it? It's Phil Morris and the people who are dressed as Jem Hadar although presumably. Yeah, his eye is blood red in one of these things. his lip is coming off as well. And obviously Nog. In fact, I was super surprised to see Nog swimming to shore in that fucking latex bed, you know, doing quite a good job. Well, weighing them down. Get our Aaron out of the water. So I love the physicality of that because you don't normally see that sort of thing in 90s. Just someone coming out of really water, you know? Yep, absolutely. I don't know, that's a crazy thing to say about television when we see that sort of thing all the time, but no, I don't think it, you know, like because a lot of these things are shot in the studio and because shooting in the studio is cheaper. putting someone in a situation where they're going up or down, like verticality where they get wet, where there's wind, like all of those sorts of things just create a level of realism that you don't normally get easily in the studio. It's almost just the vistas here. Yeah, the space. It's almost like a glimpse of another type of Star Trek they could have made in the 90s if they did have a bigger budget and they were going on location every week. It couldn't be as good as this every week. Yeah. I do have one other quote, and it is from our fabulous water character, Kivan, Christopher Sheer, who says, I read the script and I just loved it. It was a dynamite role and so well written. It reminded me of Shakespeare in many ways. A lot of actors on the show are classically trained and the writers give you so much to work with. You can tell he's responding to the script. Yeah, he probably didn't say that about the magnificent Ferengi. No. I love the beerware. They're all clouded about the place and he just goes, I hate Ferengi. He's so wonderfully camp, isn't he? He's terrific. He goes, well, what's it wrong? Because what's going to happen? And he goes, well, the Jemhadar probably got to storm the station and you're all going to be dead. It's such a great episode. But, I mean, it's 2 very different tones. The bit in this where he says to them, either way, they're coming. Oh, that's such a great moment. So good. We'll talk about that as it comes because I think he's incredible and just the relationship that is created between the Vorta and the Jem'Hadar is so interesting and sort of, yeah, just interesting. They find things to do with it that are really great. Well, I think we should... I mean, for me, this is the apotheosis, so let's go. Yeah, yeah. I agree. All right. Five, four, three, two, one, and we're off. And we start in a moment of immediate jeopardy. We're on the Jemhadar ship from a time to stand, which has been damaged. I don't know if you remember the cliffhanger, but it's Bashir with his new genetically enhanced mind, telling them precisely how long it's going to take to limp home. It's about 16 years. I do remember that because Voyager was out and about at this point wasn't it? Yeah. So it's a 5th of the time. So this is one of the things where I think this banter kind of works, but would have been much better if you were allowed to say fuck on network television in the United States, in the 1990s because it would have been much funnier to have, you know, rough working class Irishmen, um, actually saying, you know, these fucking thrusters and these fucking things. reroute the damn jar amazing. Shut your fucking maradine. That's right. Like that would have been great. And then and then Nog tries to say fucking and get shut down. That would have been much funny. Just a quick moment for the viewscreen through the eye implants. That's a really interesting visual that they don't normally do. So they don't have screens on board. The gem had our ship. And I think the people, like humans can't wear them for long, which is why Garak's along. that right? Yeah, that's right. He gets less headaches than this. You know what, right? Oh, rocks. Rocks, there we go. Rock's coming out of a thing. Excellent, Gemadar. that makes that work is that the, basically the entire ceiling just fell on top of her, which is in slow motion. So part of the problem here too is that now we used to action sequences where the cameras are participant. And so here, it's a little bit handheld, but not very much. And so all of this seems a bit static. And it seems a bit cruel to have the most exciting scene go even slower because it's a special effect shot. Oh there you go. The camera shook there. I love the drama of a slow motion. Gerda falling on somebody. But I'm kind of post Battlestar Galactica, you know, expecting the camera to whip around, trying to find people and stuff. Safe on 90s trek. This is quite a dynamic opening. And the fact that we are just coming straight in after the last episode. And that shot is so magnificent, isn't it? Great. Well, no, it's Garrett going, hold on. He's the only one that can see they're about to impact a planet. It looks really good though, doesn't it? The planet surface and the ship just sort of spiralling down. It's really well done. What impresses me there is there's energy in the writing as well. We're going back and forth to all the characters. They're all moving about the set, you know, and then there's the explosions and then the ship's going to crash. There's a lot happening. Yeah, yeah. And that stuff is funny. Like the, you know, grumpy miles and sort of, um, and... I fucking love knocking this episode. Yeah, yeah, I do too. He's really good. So, Nathan, you can either stand beside me or in front of me, but I won't turn your mind back on you again. That's so good. Having him and Gary together. for you yet. And I like how Deep Space 9 does that. I didn't have to mention that. So I don't know what episode we're referring to. towards the end of series 5, where Garrett turns into a psychopath and tries to give him. Yeah. Yeah, and so we need to address it. Like they say that we need to address it, but they address it in a scene that's funny and that doesn't spend a lot of time giving us details. know, I think it's pretty well done. Well, so we've read their scenes. Nog is like technically the superior office size. But in no way, the bit where Nog tries to give his serial number and Garrett just goes, shut up, shut up. So good. So good. There is one Garak line, which is coming up and you'll know what it is because it's literally the only thing he could possibly have said. And as I was watching it, even though I haven't seen this episode in 10 years. He delivered the line at the same time as I delivered it. I thought it was so funny, I will tell you, but it's the absolute perfect Garak line and it's just beautifully, beautifully performed by Andrew Robinson. Look at this shot. That's not real. Is that that's manadin? not there. And you cannot... No, you can now that you've told me. I don't think that's bad at all. No, no, no, but, but, um, subordinate JemHadar has his face kind of like ride up against the bit where they've done the cutout. So here is poor Phil Morris's mask falling apart. Look at this top lip. falling off. Oh, yeah. The fact that he managed to deliver this nuanced performance through this melting latex. is extraordinary, you know. when this opened and they were in the sunshine. I was like, oh, Nathan's going to have such a hard on watching this. Do you know, I love the chess bits. They didn't have to do that. The costume could just be cut off at the neck. Well, in fact, Phil Morris's costume's cut off of the neck, but the other one, the exposition Jem'Hadar is has got, you know, like a plunging neckline. I, again, I like how the exposition is done here and how we introduce the idea that the vorta doesn't give a shit about them and is actually bad at making decisions and has got them stuck here. Yeah, this poor old Aaron doing dog paddle in this fucking latex. And then you get a shot in his back with the whole thing not falling over. Like, look at that shot of Garak with the sun behind him as well. We're just getting all all sorts of stuff we don't normally see in Star Trek. Yeah, that's exciting. It feels like they're in real jeopardy. the shit has hit the fan. I love this where the camera goes over the ridge for them pulling the things out of the water. Yeah, they've got a lot of shit with them. I did think, why are we packing all this crap? Like, what is it? It's all O'Brien's spare pants. That's why. No, I reckon it's like O'Brien's stereo or is whiskey or something. And then, so this is Jadzir on location for the only time. Is that right? So... That's not Terry Farrell. Okay, Terry Farrell has a condition. Look the shot? The shot? The one where the ship actually sinks into the sea. Oh, that's great, isn't it? Well, the sea's not there and the ship's not there. And they've just added to that location. Brilliant. I remember it really vividly from all this time ago. This is brilliant too. You know how I said in AR558, part of the fun, part of the problem with it was there was no gallows humour. There was no kind of, there was no, nothing that had developed as a joke. And this thing here, the Tomay pants line isn't the thing that I like the most. reaction. I'm in real... I guess I'm really in trouble now, eh? I just love seeing Avery Brooks laughing his head off. His laugh is infectious. And then we cut back to the just the very last moment of the ship going under the water. Okay. So this story plays out in 6 scenes, I think. So this is scene one and scene 5 parallels it completely. So she gets the same shot, isn't it? Her looking in the mirror, her going to her. So looking in the mirror, she's smiling. Look at she's smiling. She's getting into work. She says, hey, Clem to that guy. Do you know what I mean? Like I climb or whatever. I don't know. Clem the Gemitar. Yeah. whatever, you know, like... Oh, no, it's it's it's Mavic. It's a space name. Yeah, yeah. Mavic space name who gives her the coffee at, um, you know, an ops. And so she's completely gone native. And this is Deep Space 9, right? So this is the show now. You know, all of our guys have been thrown off Deep Space 9 and they're off doing an adventure somewhere else. She's the only one left. Her and Odo doing deep space name, there's Mayveck. And, like, she, she, she does, like, she raises her eyebrows when she gets in the lift and greets them as if they're just her work colleagues. And, you know, this has just become her day-to-day now. working with the Kardashians and the Jemadar. And that's what's so skilful about this is hearing her wake up to an alarm, seeing her get ready, seeing her go go to ops. Like that means that that's what she's doing every day. And I think that's well done. And it doesn't need any dialogue about that. No, and in fact, it doesn't feel the need to explain to us, does it? We just get the 2 mirrored scenes and we're left to figure it out for ourselves. I feel like Rick Bermer's left the bit. Remember we watched Remember Me? Because scene 6 is us explaining the whole thing, which is the scene that I don't like very much because I was feeling a bit good about them crediting me with some intelligence. I think I think what we needed was for her to say, I'm going to start the resistance against that to kick into the next episode. Star Trek scene where she says, I'm going to start the resistance. Do you know what I mean? There's no subtext, there's no kind of room for interpretation. Just to very quickly go back to Terry Farrell. She's got a condition where she can't be out in sunlight too long. It really affects her skin. So she had to be written out of this episode and put into the cave scenes. So Neely, who's the female who gets all the dialogue on location, I think that was supposed to be that. Yeah. So we have 2 red shirts here, don't we? We've got Neely and Gordon and... Gordon is cute. And we're gonna, we're gonna cut back. So we're in cave set one here and elsewhere. No, elsewhere in cave set one or like when they move these guys out. where all our federation guys are. So we're all in caves, which is all a little bit teedy. Kivan is lying on the same rock as Jazia Daxley. Yeah, that's true. I do love this sort of physical... Who's got his shirt off? Who's got his shirt off there? Is that Julian? Look at that. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I think it's Julian. He got his shirt off and has his... Step into the light, Julian. Yeah, woo hoo. I can barely see you. Look at him. Again, though, I do like, do you like, I like the smoking clothes on the rock that's been phased. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's detail, you know? Yeah. I really like these new outfits as well because they have lots of layers and stuff and because they can be worn in sort of various dishevelled ways. And so, you know, when they're out in the dirt and they've been in these, you know, outfits for a while, they look a bit the worse for wear. They're not like the Voyager ones, which are just pure black and then, you know, yeah, here we go. It's so weird. It looks like Julia's just wearing an everyday t-shirt there doesn't it? Yeah, it's scrubs, isn't it? He's like wearing his medical scrubs or something. Nathan, I loved all this about the hotel gift shop. I want to make a complaint. This bed's as hard as a rock. You know? No, I just want you to imagine this as written by the Voyager writers, now, okay? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, like it's not hugely hilarious, but it's sort of sweet and it's them keeping their spirits up. Yeah, exactly. Oh, here we go. Nor can Garak. Yeah. The 2 most latex people in the cast, having to spend all of this time outside. That's okay, man, you know, I'll have experience this myself. He goes, you're deliberately standing in behind me and I want to know why. Oh, do you know, Aaron Eisenberg. What a loss, man. He's such a charming actor. Yeah. And who would have ever suspected when Nog raided that place on the promenade in episode one that we'd ever... no lines in episode one, does he? I think it just goes, hurry up, come on, or something like that. Yeah, yeah, possibly. Yeah. But he's just a fully fledged character now, and we've gone on that whole journey with him. Plus had all those brilliant comedy subplots along the way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All the stuff with Jay. You cannot ask that woman to chew up and spit out your food so you can eat it, you know? So it's this, what is it? I'm not sure, but. And then he looks around and says, now I'm sure. And it was just absolutely the line that I knew that he would say and that we would go out. I just think it's so funny. No, for that 1st class, 0 number C, X, 9, 3, 7. It's so good. And then, of course, Garak tries to do his spiel about some dreadful lie as stone they are. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then keeping us right through it with the badge. But and then he says, I just sort of hoped you weren't going to mention that because I'm not even going to attempt to make up a story to justify that. And Keeva's always thinking, isn't he? How am I going to get out of this? He's so great, isn't he? Because he's physically weak. He's pathetic, you know, because he's been injured. He's just lying there. and he's pale and cowardly and you know, all of that stuff and he's surrounded by these man, you know, whom he's in charge of, but he's absolutely not fit physically to be in charge of them. I think it's a good choice. you know. Don't be too hard on it, young man. It's just saved your life. Like, is there a doctor in your unit and you see Garak trying to decide what to do, and then he says yes, almost without kind of moving his lips to form the word because he's so tentative about it, and it turns out it was the right call. It's really brilliant. Again, just a terrific performance. I know the line, he gets later where he goes, I'm sure you've got one of your Starfleet engineers that can turn rocks into replicators. There's almost a little bit of lower decks taking a piss going on there, you know. Yeah. But look, look, there's some... Yeah. So Phil Morris is now here interacting with the vorta, and someone's fixed his makeup, so he's he's a little... Yeah, they were fans, you know, all over them. Yeah, exactly. I think it was a really savvy bit of design to sew the tube with the drug going into them all the time. You never forget it, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Oh, my words. What is this scene all about? Jake Cisco reporting from Starfleet news. No, because it's the challenge. He's the one who challenges her. And so we see her pushing back against what are really reasonable questions. And the great thing is at the end of it, Jake goes, wrong question Jake. And you kind of go, no, no, no, those were all the right questions and her reaction to it tells you something about how she's, doesn't what I think about what she's doing. That's right, except it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the things are 400 water are going to land on Bajor to help which is obviously, you know, just the start, a group of facilitators, which she seems to buy. facilitators, yeah. Look how how Jake, how Syric has turned into a handsome young man over the last few years from being that tiny little boy. Oh, I always forget. Nana, Nana? No, no. No, no, let's say no, no. Just how she plays all of these scenes. Yeah. Like she was out of the action a bit last year, pregnant. So now she's like, I'm back, baby, and I'm taking this show again you know? Yeah. Yeah, so and so we get this both from both of them, which is that we can't do anything about this. The Dominion are too strong and we are not in any position to do anything. So we just have to go along with them. And then that reaction, her reaction to the fact that there's a demonstration, you know, a Vedex giving a demonstration, her immediate reaction is so not her. And you can tell how this story is going to go, I think. I think, you know, again, I've seen this before, and I remember the death, but I may not have known which episode it's in. And I definitely remember, you know, the ship sinking and staff. But the moment that I, I heard her, because the next scene is her with Vetty Gasim, isn't it, talking about the demonstration and she's trying to persuade her not to do it. And I knew that she was going to kill herself, you know, I love how that was going to go. Oh, to the point. Yeah. The Dominion is evil and evil must be a poem. Yeah, and she's got complex reasons why she shouldn't oppose them and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But it turns out that, yes, is right, you know, about evil. Well, I mean, I think the entire station-based plot for out those 6 episodes is always riveting to watch. They do such, they don't waste the opportunity of having the Dominion on the station. And you have that. Is that the 1st we've seen of it? Like, it doesn't happen. No. So they don't do it in episode one. No, they do. They do. No, they do in episode one. You've got that brilliant scene in episode one where Ducat says to Kira, I could make things very comfortable for you here, Kira. And she goes, you could start by doing something about your breath your breath. It's also got that amazing scene where Quark says, you know, can you hear the deaths of people on the promenade like you did during the year? He goes, this as occupations go, this isn't so bad. Yeah, yeah. So they really sort of lean into it and do interesting things with it. Yeah, look at look at Ivery with his kind of that red thing down you know, like they, they, he looks as hot as he did. What was that show we did before this? that began with a B, the police show. Booker? Brooker, something like that. Oh okay. But I've seen steals of him with a gun looking as hot as that, you know. Finally, they're letting him do what he can do. And then this, okay. Okay, so I complained too, in Battle of, in Battle of, what is it C. Gervade? 558 558 Yeah, that, that, the, the, the, the, the firefights were really weightless, like, um, and those, I, I still maintain that those federation rifles look shit, because they look like they don't weigh anything, and so they, they don't really land, but there's a practical explosion every time one of those federation weapons hits the ground, and I think that that sells it a little bit better. It's a bit less of a kind of crappy video game because it has effects on the real environment that they're in. I mean, I maintain the AR 558. That's all at the end of that is one of my favourites. I think they do that brilliantly within the studio. But here you've got the space and you can just genuinely blow the crap out of this war. So there's lots of physical effects and debris flying. And there's lots of places to hide as well, you know? But I also think the fact that the Jemhadara people in this makes it more interesting. Oh, definitely. Yeah, because they're not people in AR 558. Well, I do think that's a... deliberate from them. Yeah, we're just seeing our side of the lines and happy no suffering. I think it's a slightly cowardly choice though, because they never feel like shooting these people is wrong. They never, yeah, we just have to shoot them. DS9 does so well as well, which is show both sides. That's what they did in those last 2 years, which show the enemy side as well. I love this scene too. where the 3rd stands up to Keevan and refuses to allow Keevan to punish the man who lost his shit and started firing because he was withdrawing from white. And he just stands up to it, says, no, I will deal with them. You don't discipline the man. And, and it's, that's the same attitude, that that is the order of things, attitude that sees him obeying Keevan. You know, he, if he obeys Kivan, then this rule applies as well the order of things, you know, indoctrination to the... Because real proper violence, I think, is done to the Jem Hadar in the way that they're created, don't you think? And that's part of the thing. Like the drug addicted soldiers in Vietnam and stuff like that American soldiers who are addicted to drugs so that they keep performing. You know, the thing, they kind of do it in that 2nd episode of Battlestar Galactica where everyone's on speed, you know? And this scene too. Now, so this is scene three, isn't it, of the Kira plot? And she's just sitting there upright, completely upright, you know just Look at her. Look at how she's doing. I think she thinks that she's going to get through to Yasm and Yasm's just gone all over from her body language. Yep, yep. I'm not going to achieve anything. Here again, she's fine. Oh, you just don't understand to use it. And she's like, no, you don't understand. Yeah, yeah. And it just that it takes such an act of violence to get through to her. Oh, it's unbelievable. It's good, isn't it? I also think too, I like the way that the Vedex provide a moral justification for resistance. You know, Louise Fletcher is sort of curiously absent from this bit. But we have a Vedic. And because she, she's old and the reason she's old is we want her to have lived through the Dominion kind of thing and and she has had the role of inspiring the Bajorans to resist the Cardassians presumably during the occupation, Vedec, you just don't understand. It's so good. Yeah, yeah, I don't. You remember I said earlier about them learning from... But this, maybe tomorrow we will both understand that's when I knew she would kill herself. I never thought that was going to happen. Yeah. I didn't I didn't think Star Trek was brave enough to show someone hanging themselves, even though we don't explicitly see it. With Kira. With, uh, so they've spent maybe 3 years at the beginning of the show with her pushing against collaboration. There are whole episodes where there are collaborators in them where she's sort of angry and and so we know her position. And then what they do in the latter half of the shows. They keep pushing her into positions. So they do it here with the Dominion on the station and they do it in the last 10 episodes where she has to go off and help the Cardassians defeat the Dominion. Well, even progress puts her in the position of, you know, like taking poor old Mullerbok off his farm or whatever. You know, that puts her in the position of an authority figure who has to do these things. See, only time I'm going to do this comparison, but they just don't have that complexity in TNG with the characters. Oh, no. It's just not any of that substance there. No. Because they're just their jobs, you know. So how did this slip through the cracks then? Yeah, yeah. I'm glad it did. See, I love this scene as well. There's that, the great thing with, why should I substitute, you know, give you 2 high ranking princes, in exchange, you just know you shouldn't. He says you're a terrible negotiator, which is so good. I wasn't sent to negotiate. I was only sent to deliver the instructor. Well, I want to speak to someone who can negotiate then. Yeah. It's so good, is it? The relationship that he builds, the Cisco builds with the third. That's really great as well. Because I think there is, there's far more respect there than there is between him and Keyvan. Do we see it elsewhere? I mean, I think we see... So there's a young Jem'Hadar comes on the station. What about the 1st Jem Hadar? We say Vorta and a Jem'Hadar? No, what's the one, what's the one where we try and create a substitute for white or something like that? Oh, that's Bashir and O'Brien on the planet? Yeah, she had a crotic oath. Right. So we've seen, yeah, we've definitely seen sympathetic Jem'adar before. And the kid, the Odo's trying to raise... But we've we've never seen sympathetic vorta. You know, they're always sort of comedy villains, like camp comedy villains, I think. And this, what's this story he's telling? So he's telling about a previous episode where the Jemadar killed the Vorta. Oh, that was the one with the Iconian Gateway, that fabulous episode where they basically the Dominion blows up a pylon on DS9. So then the fire goes after them. They've been they've been trying to get scientific equipment so they can find the Iconian gateway. So they're going hot pursuit. It's a rogue Jemhadar section that they're going after. And what is the 1st episode where Jeffrey Coombes is back. Well, no, the 1st episode of Jeffrey Coombes is eating with the Jemadar. He develops a good relationship and at the end, he kills Wyun. That's that's the... So he's talking about Wayoon. Yeah. How's the water here? 7 or something. That's got some amazing battle scenes with those knives slicing through people's faces. Wow. But so, so again. So this violence has been done to the Jemhadar and the Jemhadar honourable man, and because they're honest and they can be trusted I think, isn't it? Like, it, it, it, they could be trusted. within the structure of what they're... Yeah, yeah, yeah. right. So here, because like Cisco agrees to go and see Kivan, because he's been assured by the 3rd that he'll be allowed to leave, that he and Julian will be allowed to leave. I think too, there's this kind of soldier's thing as well because we understand, you know, what a soldier is and that there's some honour in being a soldier or something. But I do just think there's an honesty and plain dealing and stuff. And so, so the Jem'Hadar have been, have been harmed by being created by being addicted to a drug by being genetically, you know kind of engineered to obey the vorta, to regard the vorta as gods or the founders as gods, like, um, and, and the vorta hate them in return, the vorta just are completely um, contemptuous of them. And it's wonderful when they're all working together and they go hey, J. Blake 7 effect, isn't it? You know, you can have great catty dialogue. Do you remember I said to you there was a Star Trek podcast? Oh, hang on very quickly. this shot here of them walking across the water. Talk about what you don't normally see in Shrek. That a lovely show. Yeah. It's very stylish. There's a Star Trek podcast where it's 2 veterans talking about Star and I told you, I think, before. It's only a paper moon is one of their favourite episodes because it deals with PTSD, something they've dealt with. And I remember them talking about rocks and shoals and I remember them talking about having to obey orders. I think this works on other levels if you have been in the tree. Yeah, because, I mean, that is an issue. Oh, he's saying four, I guess. Slow motion hanging. Yeah, but it's it's done off camera. Like it's done tastefully, I think. I think I think Nenal's visitor's reaction is enough for me. Well, that's what properly sells it. Yeah. Again, it's slow motion, isn't it? Is it? Yeah, the hanging is. And then her coming forward. Watch. Yeah, we see the close-up. Look at her at the close-up. Yeah. I mean, I do think the hat folding is quite funny. Yeah, no, no, no, but I think the hat is good. Do you know what I mean? Like I think the hat falling is actually quite a good thing because it reminds us of her role, you know, that she is in the right morally, that it's her job to support her people in opposing their oppressors. I think it's good. The trouble with Nanavista is that she's such a good actress when she's forced to play, you know, torturous moments, that they keep doing terrible things to her as a result. Yeah, it's same thing that happens to Michael. sadly. Oh, Brian as well, you know? They used to make a joke of it. Ira Bay goes, what's our torture O'Brien episode for this year? For the year. Yeah. Oh, look, all the Gemma, I want to see what the inside is. I love this line. And the Vorton knows it. It's so interesting. Like, it seems to be true. He's not just making a joke. They've never seen what the inside of a vorta looks like before. And I tend to believe him. It's it's interesting. Like, they don't do anything with it or develop it. It's just a bit of colour, but it's really good, isn't it? Now watch visitor's performance as we play out these scenes again. Yep. She just looks haunted. Yeah. And the bit where it's on her, the camera's sort of going around. She's looking around ops and she's suddenly aware, she's surrounded by Cardassians and Jemadar. I've been here too. Do you know what I mean? She's not engaging with the other people in the lift like she was before, and she looks tired. She still thinks Mayvag for the coffee because, you know, she's nice. She's nice. Yeah. I love how this is sharp. Yeah, slowly going around her. She's taken in. Oh my fucking god. I'm surrounded by Cardassians. And the interesting thing too that works really well is that she's pale and red and they're all gray. Both the gemhadar and the Kardassians and the set, which is Kardassian, all have the same colour palette and she's red, you know, like she sticks out. She's white and red. It's good. I think it's very good. How was the show? Informative. Yeah. That's so great I really love the theatre of The Vorcer just playing the Jemadar as well. So he's trying to convince for a couple of scenes that, you know, 0 yeah, they're going to get us all out of here. We're going to be all right. And he was literally walking them to their deaths. He is irredeemable, isn't he, this character? Oh no, he's awful. And one of the things is that, you know, I think that this is a worst thing that Cisco's forced to do in the war is kill these people. You know, he's forced to kill all these people. I think that's worse than killing Senator Renak and that asshole with the, you know, um, data chip thing. Do you know what I mean? They're going to this well, though, don't they? Yeah, but I think that this is worse because they're just sort of like one of them's an asshole and one of them's another asshole and like who cares? But these are good people, you know, who aren't to blame for the situation that they find themselves in. And they have been honest and honourable and he has to kill them to save this guy. You know, um, and, and like, in fact, the best thing about that final scene is the looks on the faces of all of the people who are about to shoot them all. I have got a great quote about that scene, but I'll say that. Garak, even Garak looks amazing. It's just so well done. I like how he described and then, you know, once the whites run out. They'll turn into senseless, violent animals. And we've seen that. Do you remember that scene in the beginning of 3 when they attack and they're just screaming and killing. But whose fault is that? Do you know what I mean? That's not their fault. Like they've been engineered. and addicted, so they'll behave like that. Bad truth is, is the vorta is the more valuable prisoner of war as well. Yeah, but I kind of thought, you know, if someone had just bumped him with a rifle and he'd fallen off a cliff. you know what I mean? No, the ending it gets is perfect. Yeah, that's true. But, but, he's literally just walking into the wall. No, it's weekend at Bernie's. That's it. It's literally that. But it's that thing where they're forced to take this person on board and rescue him, you know, even though he's utterly worthless like just an appalling, appalling person who's responsible for the deaths of 10 people and uses them in order to get it to happen. Do you think that was always planned to give him that dreadful ending? No. Oh, cro kid. I think they went, oh, God. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I just reckon, oh God, is Chris available? That would be great. Let's get him to do it because he's so good. Jeffrey Coombs is looking over his shoulder going, what's going on here? Yeah, so you said that you thought this was the best Vorta performance apart from Coombs. But Coombs does a lot more things and stuff. I think that this, like, he is so loathsome, Keyvan, like so fabulously loathsome and a bit aristocratic as well. You know what he walks through the dead bodies and sort of is vaguely interested in looking at them? You know, he's so repellent. He's really, really good. He does such a great job. That's why his last line is so great because you just want someone to shoot him. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just by accident, you know? I really, I know they do this a lot in Shrek, sort of weighing up the moral dilemma. I just think the dialogue here is great because you've got so many opposing viewpoints. Someone's saying, oh, yeah, we just shoot them down. Someone's saying, well, we've got rules in war, Garak saying, no no, no, you've got rules in war and they may winning the war a lot harder to achieve. But I just like, I like, um, doesn't CSCO just say, um, excuse me you know, it's not a democracy. We're doing what I'm saying we're going to do. Do you know what I mean? And it's down to, when it comes to a choice between us and them there isn't a choice. Yeah, that's right. That's it. Oh, here's your, here's your, here's your one troubling scene. Come on. You've been far too positive throughout this episode. Look, I think that, like, you know, it wasn't subtle. The rest of it wasn't particularly subtle, but it's so rare for Star Trek to give us an insight into what the character is feeling without just having them come out and say, this is how I'm feeling. You know, Star Trek doesn't really do subtext. And so here we just get a long scene. It's like where she just says how she's feeling and then he says how he's feeling. He comes his eye over the script and go, look, you can have all those scenes, but again, you've got to tell everyone what it's all about. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's a shame. I do think it's a shame. I think, you know, they think maybe we hear just for the spaceships and the stupid latex heads. I do like the line. I'm a collab race, Rodo, though. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. To have her say that. I mean, we did have a similar moment in Image of the Sand at the beginning of seven. Remember? Odo exposition. We were doing all this in this exact spot on the problem. right right. Oh, I was very handy for that. But all of this, we've been here. Do you know what I mean? We've been here and it was done better before and I just think they should have had the confidence in the audience to just let it rest, I think. Because you remember when Odo cheats on Kira with the female Shape Shifter in a couple of episodes time, that fabulous plot in behind the lines? Yeah. And then the pair of them makeup or what, they don't even bother to show us. gone into a cupboard and everything's all right again. They trust us to, you know, we don't need 5 hours dialogue. No. And here I think there would have been a way of indicating that she intended to do something from now on without herself, like that. Look in a mirror and be nauseated by what I see. Like we saw that. Don't tell us that. We saw it. I just think it's a shame. She maybe could have just gone back to her quarters and did something in silence again that indicated the fire starts now. Exactly. Yeah. But when it does, it's amazing. Yeah. Do you not remember when it's her, Rom, and they're all sitting in quarks, and they've taken a pad that the vort has written up saying, oh, God, if we can't get any more white, we're just going to have to murder all the Jem'adar, and they've left it outside the head Jem'adar's quarters. And then he comes into quarks and a massive bar fight erupts. It's great. Here comes the ending. Yeah. Yeah. So good. I mean, and this is one thing I will say about doing this one. They do. They put a lot of people on the screen. So in Ops, there was a lot of Cardassians and Gemini. I don't know if they've done it later. A lot of work. Yeah. So maybe that's where they put some of their money. Oh yeah, for sure. That's great as well. The way it swung around, that whole quarry. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We don't cut to them. They're in the same place because they were in the same shot. We just move the camera around to them. a view of how they are... in the advance. Yeah, how they are in space. Exactly. Yeah. I think that's well done But it's also them together on the battlefield. Like the 2 sides are here together, so they get to be in the same shot because they won't otherwise. And I like this a lot. Like, I just like that that Cisco knows that he can walk down and speak to the 3rd and he will be fine because they are honourable men. I mean, it ducks it a little bit because this now puts the choice that they die in the 3rd hands. Because he basically says to him, let's band together and go and stop him and the 3rd goes... not what I've been told to do. Well, yeah, but yeah, yeah. Yeah. But the reason that that's not available to him, though, isn't because some sort of coherent ideology has been explained to him and he's adhered to it and now he's going to do the right thing. Like Kira, right? Kira has been persuaded by the Vedec to fight back against the dominion because she's she cares about her people and she's convinced that they're evil. Why does the 3rd behave this way because he's been addicted and genetically engineered to do it? He's been brainwashed. He's a soldier and he has to do what he's told. And so he has no agency, you know. And so, so he has to be given the opportunity to, for an alternative, I think. I think we need to see that. And that this, uh, indoctrinate, whatever you want to call it, this adherence to the structure of command and the abeyance of the orders is so strong. He will just walk his men to the deaths. to the deaths. That's shocking, isn't it? And I do think a bit of that has probably happened in the world. Well, yeah, no, I think that I think I think that that's an image of what gets done to soldiers, I think, you know. And, and, but, but it's not all fighters. Do you know what I mean? Like, like, Kira's going to fight now, but not because, not for the same reason that the 3rd is going to allow himself and his men to die. you know, so good. Just that he's been broken to accept this. get it slow motion, I think. He turns around just before he sends his men in and you just see his mind. And I think it's the shot of the most honourable man in the story. You know, it's just Catherine really well. Yeah, why do we read him as honourable? Why do we read him as honourable? You know, strange, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah, and I think that... You could read him as just being stupid. fucking idiot. That's right. You don't. Maybe that's the integrity of the performance. It's that too, but I think that there's just an honesty. I like the fact that O'Brien is there as well because he's a war veteran, isn't he? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Garak's literally behind that rock with a look on his face going. I'm ready. That's so good. I actually thought it was a shame that they kill pretty gay boy there. What's his name? Gordon. I guess they wanted a loss. I had to kill someone. slow motion shot of them all dying. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's that's just not your typical Star Trek. No, that is pretty great. Um, Nog looks absolutely disgusted. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's nice to react the silent reaction shots. That's good drama, I think. Yeah, it's a thing that they had to do. Again, yes, rather than having a big conversation about how they felt about having to kill them, we just get, we trust the actors and the visuals to tell us and that happens so rarely. I'm wondering if Neely survived because that was supposed to be Dax. They just... I think there had originally been a plan to bury the Jem'Hadar and and Taberry Gordon as well, and we were going to see that. Yeah, this thing where he just walks onto the battlefield sort of vaguely interested. Do you know what I mean? He sort of looking at the dead. I don't think he does. He looks even remotely interested in it. Yeah, that's what I mean. He's just sort of like, uh, like whatever, a thing is happening. And he's so pathetic. Like he's physically, he's not imposing, you know, he's pale. you know, like he's kind of pathetic. And he's still... have a line, didn't he? You wouldn't have had a chance, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right. And you talk very big for someone who was just lying on a fucking rock. Do you know what I mean? Like, you would have sent a whole bunch of other people. It's like my big brother could beat you up. You know, like it's, and just that sort of loose way he's holding his body as well, you know, like a child or something, like he's just pathetic. I do like the closing shot on... Cisco's disgust. Who, I've got to say, I kept meant to say it for out, but there was too many interesting things to say, looks hot as hell for this entire episode. You're living sweaty. Wow, that was good. Yeah. It's really properly good. Amazingly good. Ridiculously good for 90s trek. Yeah. But also, I never really thought that the 2 plots had anything much in common, but, you know, there is a kind of why we fight thing there, isn't there? And that sort of interesting, I guess. I think the Jem'Hadara just interesting in themselves. They're so good. And they get a lot of mileage out of them as well. throughout the run. You know how we said before about having arcs and trying to have standalone episodes within those arcs. I think these 6 get it far better than the last 10. What you said about the last 10 was, we're inching the plots along all these different plots. So we've got maybe 2 scenes with everybody in every episode. And like Tom Solinski, who we love. He had a lot of trouble with that because nothing was moving very fast. I love it because if you watch it as a 10, It's a badly epic. soap opera. Overwrought soap opera, yeah. Don't get me wrong. This goes madly. I mean, you see how I was deaf in the sacrifice of angels, you know. Please hear me. I love you, miaow. I don't forget that. But I do think each of these 6 episodes are very strong standalones and very strong segments of this arc. And if you read the DS9 companion, which I have. It was torture for them to get this right. It was countless meetings. They were all sending each other emails going, well, are you doing this bit? What bit am I continuing on? Because this just wasn't Star Trek. They've never done this before. Yeah. to the fact that they got it. This right on their 1st try. Bravo. Well, I mean, compare it to many, many years later, the if memory serves episode of Discovery, we watched, which I don't think just doesn't come anywhere near getting that sort of serialisation right. And I think that the discovery does eventually nail that kind of serialisation. I think that series 4 of discovery does a magnificent job of it. I like serialisation, but we've now done 2 discovery episodes that were kind of not very good when it came to serialisation that were just inching the plot along without being an overwrought soap opera to kind of take our minds off that. Here, I think they just got it exactly right. There's 2 plots, both of them have a beginning, middle, and an end. Both of them are worthwhile and well told with interesting things happening to the characters and reversals and all sorts of stuff. It was just really very good. They both like, obviously, at the end of a time stand. They were stranded on that Jem'adar ship. So now we know how they get to the space station in the 3rd episode. Now we know why the resistance starts in the next episode, you know, it's really, really great stuff. Before we out this episode. Can I just say one final thing about the director, Mike Vajar, who is the standout director of 90s trek. He directed the Change of Face of Evil that we watched recently. He also does what you leave behind, Tears of the Prophets Sacrifice of Angels. Like, I think they realise very, very quickly that this guy could deliver a really good episode. This might be the best episode he's directed, I think, visually. I'm only saying it because we don't often get to credit the directors of 90s Star Trek. Usually we just go, well, we're pointing and shooting again, you know? other lights on. Let's go. I think he's the aberration. He's the one that's trying to push the show into being, and I know cinematic's an easy word to use, but he's trying to push the boundaries of what 90s trek can look like that shot of the German Hathar ship vanishing under the water with them all in the forefront coming out of the water is a good example of that. So huge thumbs up to Mike Bajar, I cannot wait till we do another one of his. All right, it's the end of the episode and it is time for us to work out what we're going to watch next time. Rocks and Shoals was the result of a bout of excellent taste by Joe. And so it's my turn to address the balance. And so to that end, I'm going to choose from 290s track series that have something in common. in that they're both terrible. No, in that they're both. They're both set on a starship called Enterprise. So it's going to be Star Trek the Next Generation or Enterprise. Okay. Can I say I took us to Remember Me as well? You took us to collective. So my hit rate recently has been pretty strong. been better. Yeah, no, I've been choosing the duds and it's hard to imagine that I'm not going to continue my run with this choice. Who changed to Simon Earth? Was that you or me? Oh, I don't know. I think that was me. Yeah, you've been doing really well. Meanwhile, I've got interface from series 7. It's normally in a series 7 episode of Star Trek, The Next Generation. They discover an unknown family member, but here Geordie loses a family member to kind of redress the balance. What is it about that randomiser and series 7 of the next generation? We've chosen interface before. I mean, we've got interface before. I'll eventually chosen it, but not today. No. Oh, okay. I don't know about this. This is from season 3 of Enterprise. which is still an area that I'm keen to explore. This one's called Chosen Realm. It's episode 12. I don't remember. A single thing about that episode. That's probably not a good sign. Why can't you get one of those fabulous ones from towards the end of the season where they're really good? I, you know what? I'm going to suggest you push the button again, only because we have recently done series 3 of enterprise. Okay, all right. I'll press the button again. Season 2 of Star Trek Enterprise, The Crossing. Help me out. We'll say about. So it's the enterprise gets taken over by non-corporeal entities who take the, it's, I'm bored already. I'm pressing the button. You couldn't even get to the end of the sentence. I just rolled a really good one. And it's an episode that was heavily referenced in the 1st episode of the latest series of Lower Decks, which screened last week. It's the price. Is that the one I watched last time? Yeah. And I thought we were going to do the Deanna Troy Romance episode. Yeah. Oh, that's great. Well, I had great fun with it. You all love it. Marina, I remember it well. gets a ditch all a good girl act and just have a load of sex. But you know what they did in the 1st episode of the latest series of lower decks. They recreated the scene where Beverly and Deanna are in leotards. Only it's shacks and ransom and they're doing the same exercises and everything. And it was a scene. It was a scene that worked actually just functionally as a scene of lower decks, even if you didn't know about the reference to the price, but it was just delightful if you did not. I think it's a really good, solid episode of Star Trek, the next generation from season three. I think it'll be great. You know where the cameras are in those shots of Gates and Marina. So you can see in the mirror and see their asses. In the animation, they've even done it, so you can see shaxies and the other one's arse in the middle. I'm like, that is an attention to detail. I admire. It's really pretty great isn't it? You know, and the price has got just the most ridiculously horrendous romance music in it, so we'll have fun with that. That's got the Barsan wormhole, which is going off to being Star Trek Voyager. So a dreadful performance from someone in loads of makeup. I mean it's just 90s gold. It's really good and it actually is like it's a story that contributes a fair amount to the premise of Deep Space 9 as well. So I think it's important and it's kind of fun and I think we should watch it. It also has the best ever Troy line in scene one where Captain Picard comes over the speaker and goes, Counsellor, try. You need to get to the 10 forward immediately. You don't want to miss the opening of the wormhole and then she just makes sure he's gone and then she goes, No, I wouldn't want to miss the opening of the wormhole, would I? You've grown in it. It's not a thought against nature is great. Let's do it. Okay, awesome. brilliant. I'm listening to Untitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford and Nathan Bottomley, where online at Untitled Star Trek Project.com where you can find subscription links and links to our social media accounts. Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceran, and the theme was composed by Cameron Lam. This episode was recorded on the 12th of September 2023 and released on the 15th of September. We'll see you next time for Star Trek the Next Generation. Nice. Doesn't it have the scene? We're in 10 forward, and one of the Ferengi goes up to the bar, and there's a woman at the bar, and the Ferengi just holds his hands out like a foot apart to just sort of to indicate how well endowed he is, and she shakes her head and gets up and walks off in the background. It's also got that horrible scene where she's oiling his chest. Oh, and it's trying to be really sexy and it's so gross. I was just talking. Oh, gee, weird. I mean, that shade just cannot do sexy. Yeah, for sure. It's actually pretty great the way that Star Trek can do sexy now. I think. They're all very attractive. Did he ever do sexy in the 90s? No, no it was always embarrassing. It was either Horny Roddenbury sort of sexy from series one and 2 of Star Trek, which was just weird. Like it was kind of leave your keys in that bowl near the near the door kind of weird. And... That's for Sharon, Sarah's one of their... No, I don't think so. Like, I think he's sort of trying. I think there's something there, but he's just a little bit too kind of creepy. And then, and then it's just like that embarrassing, like I just you know, the worst Robert, trying to seduce the Delaney sisters in a sort of gross sophomoric kind of way. It's just yuck. hate it. I feel like they're almost ageing towards something with DS9, but it all gets a bit too mature. So Cisco and Penny Johnson, that is it's a city couple. They're very sexy, but they're sort of quite a mature relationship. So... So how old? Like, I'd be super interested to compare like how old Sanequa and the guy who plays book are compared to Penny and Avery. Do you know what I mean? Because you read Penny and Avery as adults because we encountered them when we were much younger than them, but I'm older than Sydney. It turns out they're exactly the same age. Yeah, they're probably the same age. It's just how old I was when I encountered them because I read them as sexy young people, you know. You see them kiss, but you don't see anything more than that. But I just, I like all the intimacy. There's a bit where Cassidy gets out of the bed and Cisco grabs her cushion and smells it and then throws his cushion away and puts it down. It's like, it's not sexy, but I like, I like... Instead of comfortable. Yeah, yeah. I suppose there is that one bit where Worf and Dax finally, she jumps his bones. She just gets on top of him, doesn't she? So good. Nah, I don't think there is a moment really, is there? They're trying. Yeah. As for Tom Paris and B'Elana. No one wants to see that. No, or hear it. Everyone on deck 17 can hear it. When you get to 7 of 9 and Raffi is hot as hell. Get your hands in my hair, Raffi. They're older, they're older, you know, like they're older ladies makes it even sixier. Awesome. Sorry, I realise this has now become the sex tag at the end of this very mature episode of Deep Space Nine. Speaking of which, Phil Morris, can I say? Pretty. Oh, smoking. Hmm. Yeah. Yeah, it almost makes me want to watch Star Trek 3, but I'm sure there'll only be in one scene and I'll just generally be disappointed. I'm fast. Is that a good conclusion? It's not free. I think it's a bit embarrassing, but it's it's got some great set pieces. Star Trek. It's got Christopher Christopher Lloyd in it, for goodness sakes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's about sac Christopher Lee. Sorry. One last thing about sex. I'm fast coming to the conclusion that for me, the sexiest person in all of Star Trek is Afred Brooks. There's just something about he's got he's got a something about him. Yeah, he does. He does. presence and a fabulous bald head and a goatee. Yeah, yeah. Yep. No, love all of that. Well, you would. All now podcasting buddies. Yeah, I'm coming to that conclusion. There's definitely a type there.