If Memory Serves

Hey, Joe. Hi. So we're back in Discovery, the first series of the new Kurtzman Star Trek Heyday, and it's been a while since we've done it, and every time we do it, it reminds me actually how much I like kind of hanging out with these people, but it's so different from just about anything else we ever do. I'm in a disadvantageous position that the last few times we've come back to this show, I'm reminded why this is probably my least favourite Star Trek series. Of all, of all. Oh, maybe not the animated series. I'm not sure that even deserves the title series, though. you know skits maybe. Yeah, I mean, look, I think, I think this is, you know, clearly better than a lot of 90s trek, and the reason that it's better is that it's weird in a way that 90 straight doesn't attempt to be. And it's visually weird and interesting and sort of unsettling in all sorts of ways. Destructing, I think, was the word you use on our Fred. And sometimes I don't think it needs to be as distracting as it is. Oh yeah, I think it's trying to disconcert you. And certainly in series one where Discovery is kind of a hostile place as far as Michael's concerned and certainly not her home in any sense, the direction goes out of its way to kind of be unsettling. And I still think you get that a little bit in Discovery's corridors. And then there's the big sort of wheeling the camera around upside down for no reason when we go on board the section 39 ship, as if to say discovery. on Strange New Worlds. They don't they don't do that Australia Worlds. No. And that's the thing. Like, strangely, worlds reins it back in again. And Strangely Worlds is odd, but it's not as complex and the characters are more straightforward and the storytelling is more straightforward. For me, it is more fun to watch. Oh, it is. I think that if this is a fault, I think it's a little bit too rightly and a little bit too sombre. And there are fun moments and funny lines, but there's a kind of level of self-seriousness that I don't always kind of buy. you talking about this episode or this TV show? This season more than anything else? I think. This is my least favourite season of Discovery. And I think it's because we discover that some Sanequa is a very good actor and an incredibly strong lead. And we do something that we haven't emphasised in previous Star Trek shows, which is we make it about how she feels about things and we give her things to feel about. So she's got this backstory and she's got sort of dead parents who then get upgraded to missing and she's got this relationship with this with Spock and she's got this childhood of kind of exile and anxiety and, you know, being teased for being human and stuff like that. So she's got this rich story that she has things to feel about. And they just, I think, in series 2, lean into that too much. And so there's a lot of talking and a lot of her looking soulful and stuff like that. exemplified in this episode, which suffers from incredibly dull, very long dialogue scenes, where she's acting her heart out, but I was just so disengaged by the tone of it. Like you and I, we've already talked about the soap opera in Star Trek. But that sort of grandiose melodramatic, so popular. Yeah, yeah, yeah. of the latter-day DS9. This isn't that. I mean, this is sort of playing it for real. Yeah, and that's just not very interesting to watch. And come the end of this season, all of this introspection and overdone sentiment is taken to the nth degree, the penultimate episode of this season is one of the most agonising episodes of Star Trek. As every character says goodbye for about 15 minutes and the strings are in and everyone's crying and I'm like, just get on with it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I'm at the point then where I'm kind of going, they better not really be going into the future because I'm going to be really annoyed. Part of the way... Well, part of the reason that I, like, I think the 2 seasons where they're in the future are much better and have a clearer focus and a better idea of what the show is going to be about. And series one, I think, is clearly about something and series 2 is this weird kind of transitional period where we're slightly apologising for series one because some people didn't really get it. And we didn't know it at the time, but this is another backdoor pilot for another show. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right. Just a 2nd in a row. Yeah, yeah. So I don't think this sort of fully works, but I really like, so there's some plot. There's sort of two, there's sort of one big soap opera subplot which is about the death of Hugh and his return to life and how that affects his relationship with Paul. And I think that's really good. And Ash is obviously involved in that because it was Voke that killed Hugh towards the end of series one in what was a massive dumb mistake, a huge misstep for the show to take. I will say that the sequence in this, which we will talk about later, where, um, Oh God, Colba and Ash. Yeah, Ash. Yeah. Pock? whatever his name is. Yeah, yeah, that is. The fight sequence. You've got 2 of the hottest men on this show going at each other in the mess up. Suddenly my interest peaked, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And the reaction around that. like I think all of that's really good. And I think the great thing about it too is that it's been soundly mocked since then by lower decks, because that show kills shacks off in the season one finale and then brings him back a few episodes later and makes the whole thing about how bridge crew died. never know the time and come back. And someone's coming up with these absurd Star Trek plots to try guess the way that he came back, you know? And it's an official secret. Yeah, but I mean, they earn it. They solidly punish themselves for being so stupid as to kill him off. And here we are just over halfway through the season and it's still happening. It's still an ongoing plot. You remember when we pulled this one out of the randomiser? And I went, 0 yeah, this is the one where they go to Talos 7 and it's the original. And you said, yeah, it's got that previously on Star Trek Bit. And I think what this promises at the beginning is a really sort of nostalgic look back at the cage. And I think that entire plot here, that's what fails miserably. It's not camp and silly and fun like the cage was. So it's not sort of getting the tone right. It takes away a lot of the artifice, and I know you're going to come at me saying that TVs change these days, but they did do that in Strange New Worlds when they did a TOS pastige. So they can do it. And instead we're on location and the aliens have all been, they've got sort of heads looking slightly less embarrassing than they did in the 60s. Yeah, but I think that's a deliberate thing. I think that they're definitely trying to do that. And that's one of this show's missions. But it does feel like they're a little embarrassed about it. No, but I don't think they are because they absolutely put that stuff on screen. And what they say is that Anson Mount is the same character who was played by whoever the hell, way back in the cage, and they even do that by, you know, kind of cutting to him looking like or in the same kind of stance as the other guy was. And I think that this is saying, you know, this is what this show looks like with modern production values. And there were bafflingly dim critics who were saying, well, all the technology here looks newer than it did in the 1960s. And that's inconsistent. It's a uh, discontinuity with the uh, with the original show. And this show is saying, yes, it is. That's absolutely this. We are telling the same story about some of the same people, but we're doing it on, you know, a modern TV budget and now Strange New Worlds does the same thing. absolutely the same thing. And it does the usual sort of, oh, we were in space stock and we redecorated, so all the rooms are 5 times as big as they're going to be, you know, 10 years time or whatever. It's as thin as possible. And of course we're doing that because the job of this show is to look weird and spectacular. But when DS9 went back into TOS and Tribulation, obviously they're putting the characters within that episode, so it looks camping 60s and wonderful. And when Strange New Wells did it, I thought they did that as well. This feels like the anomaly of those 3 lookbacks at TOS. But do you remember that at the end of this season we actually go back on board the Enterprise and we see number one and stuff like that? We go back on board the Enterprise, and the fun of that is seeing how on the new budget, they're going to create something that looks wild and spectacular and consistent with the look of this show while still evoking the original sets from the 1960s. And I think most people thought that they did a good job of that. Well, I'm certainly not talking about the production style now. I don't think this invoked the cage at all. Yeah, and I really, I realise that. I think at this point, they're still a little tentative to have as much fun as they should be with going back and doing the cage. They're still like, right, no, we need to be polished science fiction. serious drama and all of this. And you know, you and I have discussed this in the past. That's not what Star Trek is. That's right. That's right And it doesn't work. it is quite boring. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, I think I think the longest scene is the one where we get Michael's flashback, you know, the memory that she's paying the Talosians with and it's a sort of long story. But it's told in an interesting way visually, and both Ethan Peck and Sanequa Martin Green do a great job of acting it. But yes, like you, I would prefer my Star Trek a little bit less po-faced than this. They were great and they were doing everything that was awesome. Yeah, yeah. I was, I kept waiting for the moment and it, you know, usually happens whenever Star Trek goes into soap opera where they deflate it. No, no, where I should be humiliated by this. Tom Paris going, you know, Bilana, talk to me. I was like, so ridiculous like that. And it just never happened. So I felt as if I was genuinely watching somebody's therapy session and that is an entertainment to me. Yeah, yeah. I think that, I mean, I think there are properly funny lines here um, and, you know, there's fun to be had and it looks great and the action is sort of fun and all of that. Where the where the fun was, was in the fabulous gay storyline. Because I thought that that had moments where it was heading into sort of daytime soap opera. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Stop talking. It looks to me like you know who I am. Yeah, we're doing all this stuff. I'm talking about. I think those 2 actors together are brilliant. have to play chemistry. And actually, we've seen you and I on Star Trek. have seen later episodes where they're just the highlight of the show when they're together sometimes. So that works. And you said to me in the thread, like, this is very busy. Yes. And I said, yeah, but for once, that's not a bad thing because this had all been set on Talos 7. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. It would have been in terminal to watch. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, that's the thing that's happening here too. That Star Trek discovery is serialised and has been since the 1st series and will continue to be. Each series tells a different story. And like the Talos thing is obviously what's trying to tie it together. And I guess it's what the title, you know, what... Well, I don't know where the title comes from. Is it is it that plot or is it the Hugh plot? But in any case, there's something about memory happening, but I don't think it ties it up enough. And I certainly think that in later series, they do a better job. If they were going to do this in series five. I think they go to town now. Now we've had lower decks. Now we've had Strange New Worlds. Okay. Let's loosen up. Let's have some jokes in there, you know? I'm pretty sure that that's what's going to happen when they come back next year. I think that this is their finale and I think they're going to have some fun. I think that they, they're clearly aware right from episode one of series 3 that they haven't been quite fun enough and they do their best to, you know, increase the fun quotient, I think. But also, as well, that's the season they're going out on. And I think they've earned it because they brought back this iteration on Star Trek and allowed us to have all the other stuff that we love. And I'm not saying this is all bad because there's a lot of discovery I like as well, but I think they deserve that sort of celebratory last season of just going out and having a party, you know? Yeah. I think particularly a show that was affected by COVID and a show that was affected by weird production stuff in the 1st season and a show that kind of struggled to find its feet and stuff. It's a good cast and there are some great characters and things and I would like them to have fun on the way out too. What discoveries become, isn't it? It's become the anti-DS 9. I know we find a lot of parallels with them. But DS9 started off as sort of regular trek and then found its voice and then did its own thing. Discovery started as its own thing. You know, found its own voice and then said, actually, no, we should be a little bit more like Star Trek, you know. Yeah, yeah. I think Strangely World's existence might take the pressure off discovery to be that and it can be more deep space 90. It can just be the weird serialised show over on the side, I think. I'm just hoping the cast of Discovery art watching Strange New Worlds and going, well, look at all the fun they're having over there. right. They're doing a musical episode, for God's sake. Exactly. Well, that's it. You could never imagine the Elysian Kingdom or those old scientists or subspace rhapsody happening on this show. It's too serious. And I think that's a that's a flaw. Well, I'm sold to go and watch this. Are you? Yeah, I'm gonna have fun, I'm sure. I'm going to have fun with you. Okay. All right, I'll count as him then in that case. Five, four, three, two, one. And we're off. So, like, I think this thing, this previously on Star Trek, where they recapping the cage and they're using, like, absolutely the original print, do you know what I mean? They're not using the updated special effects or anything. There's heaps of film grain. Everything looks super rough. I think that part of what, and look, look at what Talos, um, 4 looks like. And there are the plants. The blue plants, they'll be back. And I think part of what this show is doing. There's Melissa Joel. Melissa George there, I see. Fresh from neighbours. That's right. Oh, look, the original Tulosians are the best. They are so funny, aren't they? Yes. So, so, and this thing too. One of the things is that we're getting a real Gary 7 performance here from the actor who's playing Pike. There's no humour and no lightness at all. And there's our pike, who is also trying to look very serious there, but is actually a lot more fun. We'll say, though, the original. very pretty, isn't he? He's got his eyes pop. He's got very blue eyes, but I've always found him just a massive charisma vacuum. I'm not sure we saw enough of it, you know. We need him in a spot's brain or something like that to truly... It is the camera going around because we're in section 31. And I think they're trying to do a 3D nus of space. So that camera, turn on a washroom. I was like, yeah, you don't have got to tell me what TV show I'm watching. I know. So, now look, look, Emperor George, no, she's not emperor, is she? No, she, Well, yeah. She'll always be Emperor Giorgio to me. She turns up at the beginning of the end to remind us of discovery can, in fact. can be fun. But look at these these admirals here. So there's one from each of the founding races of the Federation and I think this is one of the best live action Tellerites we've seen. You'll see him over the site. He's got a line of dialogue. I think he looks really good. You know, is this the only trick that's using lens flare as well? Discovery. There, look at, look at the look, look, look, look at the Tellerie guy. He looks like a war honk. He's awesome. Oh, terrible. You could say, you did say nobody could get the teller rights right. Well, this is as close as they get. I think apart from Pog, who I think looks fantastic. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, look at that guy. He looks like an angry old white guy. Only he's a hog. It's awesome. I wasn't really paying attention to what was going on in these scenes because I was just trying to get to Talos. So what's happening here? I don't know. So, so Leland is bugging the ship. and we're supposed to think it's Tyler, who is also working for section 31, I think, but in fact, it's Arium, the robot lady on the bridge, who's part of the scenery on the bridge. Um, and there is a thing. So what this season does, is the same thing as what Picard series one does, where it imagines an AI related apocalypse. And you remember the Romulan women who have the vision of that apocalypse and they go mad and Commodore O is one of them and she passes that vision onto Agnes. Yeah. So this... Oh yeah, that sequence is extraordinary. So we'll see that thing, a different AI apocalypse, obviously because it's a different century. But we will see a future that they have to avert. And so the Red Angel spoiler is Michael's mother in a time travelling suit, because of course it is, that's how we can get Sanequa to cry. And it's not just off camera. That's right. That's right. But she does it so well. And we've got to avert this terrifying future that's caused by AI not the Borg, but just AI. I mean, that sounds like a fairly interesting premise for a Star Trek season. Yeah, and you remember that we have the the sphere. Turn the bloody cameras straight. What are they all on a walk like this? Because it's trying to make it seem like space. Okay. I think. Just making me want to go like this. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Look, you can always watch Voyager if you want some dull... That's where I'll take a snake. Bige sets over lift. Can I just say, now look at the yellow lighting on discovery is beautiful, and it's a very different look from the sort of slight blue that we get on enterprise, you know, in Strangely Worlds. I think it looks beautiful. It's like the sun shines through the windows. is also beautiful. Although I can't get used to this sort of dark in his hair. I know he's a bit younger here than he was in Strange New Wales. Well, Jimmy, a couple of years. gorgeous. No, to the giant hair he's got. I'm loving ashes, long hair. It looks... Yeah, yeah. And he's so tall. That's part of the fun. He's so much taller than Michael. So now Michael... So many hot blokes in this, you know, we'll have to... He's Ethan Peck, who's... And he's got a bit of scruff as well, isn't he? Yeah, looks good. Although Michael says something rude about the beard, which I think is pretty great. The other thing that I really like, and an unsung hero of this show is the woman who plays the computer. I love the computer on Discovery. Like, I just think she's got a great voice. You know, it's just a thing. I'm convinced now, the other song Hero of Discovery, and she barely features in this, so it might be another issue. I forgot with this. It's Tilly. Yeah. Yeah, she's pretty great. She just comes along to punch her all this seriousness and go, no no, no. We're going to have a laugh, you know? And because she's a normal person and someone who we haven't seen in Star Trek before. It's the very definite thing where we're not doing space people on this show. And I think they do do space people a bit and but they certainly do it less. Well, it's more the sort of representatives of the federation isn't it? They're the space people. Yeah. Can I just say, what you just said about Sonnequa there? I am very mean about her and I do think she always gives a good performance. I just don't always think she's given the best writing. But when we watched series 3 episode... Look how beautiful she is. And she got to be drunk and just have the best time ever. Yeah, or whatever it was. I was like, gee, I want more of this. And she does loosen up in the future, doesn't she? And it is a better approach. Yeah, they give her less, like they're less mean to her. Like there's not terrible things happening to her all the time which is how the show starts and then continues this season. what's wrong with me today. a bit horny, but they also give a smoking hot boyfriend and they, well, that just helps. works like the clappers. So I think for the 1st time I understand these titles, Ryan because remember that one of the things that this episode is doing is recreating the aliens and some locations, and they show us as a baseline what it looked like. you know, in a lot of detail what it looked like in 1966. And now they're going to show us that done now. And one of the things that this show had to do was to redesign the world of Star Trek. What does Star Trek look like now? We had a definite look in the 90s. We had a different look in the 60s. Now we have to have a different look. And of course, you know, then Strangely Worlds. an altogether different look and Picard will have a different look, but we're designing a new look for what Star Trek is. And so that's why you have blueprints in the opening titles. Playing that, though, I think when this goes off the air, then what have we got left? Strange New Worlds and I know Prodigy is getting out another season, but that's it for now, I think. Yeah. and lower deck. So we're going to have a show that's very 90s focus. We can have a show that's very 60s focussed, but with a new sort of polish to it. I think we need another show to forge ahead. Yeah. Yeah. Like people talk about Star Trek legacy, you know, as if we're going to have the Enterprise G or whatever it is with Raffi and 7 and I would love that. I'm sure that would find that. Enterprise D now. We can just have those back. I'd love to see something in the future. Maybe the Starfleet Academy thing is Tilly in the future because she leaves the show to join Starfleet Academy towards the end of series four, I think. Probably not going to spend this, spend this entire episode sweating. But Wilson, is it Wilson Cruz? Wilson Cruise, yeah. Oh, that is so cool. I believe this pair as a couple as well. You know, and I think that really had to work because it's the 1st time we've done this. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, see how how the directions, something about the way the cameras move around the corridors and stuff is a bit off putting and I think deliberately so. Annoyingly so. Yeah, no, I like it. I always have this argument, won't we? Lens flair. No, I've gone off Lensflare as well. I felt like I've seen a bit too much of it now. And I've noticed TV's kind of stopped doing it to the extent that it was. Yeah. Yeah, but I mean, I like the camera being a bit handheld and, you know, giving us a definite point of view. See, that's quite good, isn't it? I'm not going to say this isn't incredible looking because it clearly is. And this is probably the most expensive Star Trek show of the Kurtzman era. Yeah, look at that. budget. Oh no, I think the sets in... I think I think probably Strangely Worlds is... You know, this is now 4 or 5 years old, 4 years old. It's robot. character. Oh, it's Soroan. All is right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And we just discovered that in the 23rd century, we are still using SQL as a database query language from that dialogue from Arium there, which is terrifying, reassuring and kind of terrifying at the same time. For me, who doesn't move along with technology is very reassuring. There's Tilly. There's Tilly. She pops her head out of the console. I mean, you know, it actually took you to point out just how good Saru was because I think I had written him off in series one. And then you said, no, keep an eye on that character. And by 2 and three. He's just the best character in this show. depths that he manages to give after that. It's Renee Aubergonoir levels of... under latex. And so it's Doug Jones, who is obviously the lead gentleman in Buffy's hush. We ever see his face. Well, no, we did see his face, didn't we, in that episode? Yeah, yeah, yeah. yep, yep. He's also the fish in face in shape of water. Nathan, I don't want to be this person, but that is not Talos 7. No, no, no, it is. Of course it is. It's 10 or 7, but created in 2018. It's not what we're doing, Dog 2 again. We in a quarry. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But we've got a green sky and we've got a fisheye lens. You know, like, look at how big that shuttle looks as well. And the fantastic physical switches and stuff like that. Like there's a real feel of, like it feels real in a way that 90s Shrek and certainly 60s Shrek never did. But it's also incredibly graded as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's a bit dull to look at. You know what they should have done? You know that set that they erect at conventions? They kept one of the early TNG planet sets. They should have just dragged that out. Yeah, that's right But it looks big and with the fish eye lens, it looks amazing. That's... Yeah, sure, it's incredible going around. It looks amazing. Look how pretty she is. Holy crap. I am the problem. I am that person you were talking about earlier. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Needs to look more crap. Yes, please. But look, and it's those same plants making the same singing noise delighting her brother in original, in original trek and now delighting her and just that. Look, it snaps closed. That's so lovely. I do need to bring this up whilst I remember, but this was the only episode that Jammer gave 4 stars to in the entire run of Discovery today. No, it's not very far. It's incredibly serious and not fun. I think you might be right about him, you know. But look at what Melissa Jaws. So this is Melissa George from Neighbours. And I think what's the character who the actor who plays Christine Chappel is Jess? Something? Bush? I can't remember. But she's from home and away. So we have, this is Australian soap stars again. And so Melissa George was a bit of a sort of household face in Australia and she probably won a silver Logie, who knows? But she's still at her IMDb page, you know. She did a lot of work. Yeah, she skipped over to America. So she's she's a face, you know, the people. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I love the dress. Do you know what I mean? The dress is very 60s. She's wearing a very short, but it's a sort of slightly science fiction-y updated version of the dress, but I think it... You know, my usual unfair comparisons. I'm gonna do one now. You remember that fabulous woman who played the pirate in Strange New Worlds? got to give that dreadful backstory and then saying, ah, I fold you all. Um, the fun she had. Poor Melissa George is stuck delivering exposition and looking very serious throughout being... It's a bit thankless. Yeah, yeah. At least you're not arguing. were you arguing? Like, I always just sort of try and imagine what it would be like to, like, suddenly be on a sound stage with Mr. Spock. Do you know what I mean? I just got to think, wait, Mr. Spock is here. I'm doing a thing and he's there. I bet she was like Terry Farrell and trials and tribulations, you know? But it's James Kirk. Gosh, he's looking good too, isn't he? Holy crap. It is very blue, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, and they do do that, and they try, like, because they're not going to use sets for planets, and they haven't developed that big special effects wall yet. that they use to create planets with varying degrees of success on strange new worlds. Uh, you know, they use colour grading to try and make the the planet seem alien. And, you know, I think that green sky is really effective. You know, they'll later go to places like Iceland and stuff and shoot there. Oh, beginning of three. Yeah, stomach. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it looks great. absolutely stunning. At the end of this episode, when Michael and Spock are together and they're replaying as adults, the scenes they had as kids. So what's the problem? Michael said to Spock, you know, you're half human and that's a problem. No, you're a weird little half breed and I don't like you. Like, and so we have a Spock that idolised Michael because Michael was older than her and made being humans seem fun to him, like seem not a bad thing. And so she solidly rejects him in such a way as to stop him feeling that way. Because we've seen Vulcan logic separatists write from series one of this show. And I think that's a sort of interesting idea because logic in the 60s seems to be like the right way of going about thinking about things. Do you know what I mean? That logic leads you to the correct answers and stuff like that. And the argument against Spock is always that he doesn't use his guard or he doesn't trust his emotion and things like that. But, you know, we see now that logic leads people to all sorts of truly horrifying things as well. And, you know, people, like the sort of neck beards on Twitter who are expressing alt right opinions, who like to think of themselves as supremely logical. You know, like you can be logical and just a fucking asshole as well and come to fucking asshole conclusions. And so I like that. And I don't think it's the same violation of the Vulcans that, you know, enterprise is. I don't, I don't like the scenes because I, I, I think they're dreary, but I like how it explains why he led into the logic and how he is, how he is in TOS. I thought, and that's something they can responsibly do with Discovery. is take a look at the past and, you know, later on, we just take a look at the past and generally sort of have a little chore, you know. Yeah, can you believe they used to do that back then, you know? It's a bit like that. But I mean, see, this is doing another thing too, where they have a woman playing one of those aliens, like the middle aliens played by a woman. And the original alien, the main hero alien in the cage is actually played by a woman in makeup and with a man's voice. She looks like my nanny 4, that woman, the original waggon again. Yeah. I wish did I tell you that before. whenever she came on in the credits. I used to go with Nanny Ford. And so there is how she looks, you know, in the cage at the end where we see what she's really like. is actually slightly less horrific than it was in the cage. Yeah, well, because she's all sort of bent over and weirdly misshapen. It just a close-up of her face. So, Melissa George, you know, we can't make them look for George. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I mean, the other woman was very pretty as well. See, but I'm not sure, but then they've got big heads, but if you'd have told me those were the aliens from Talos 7, I'm not sure I'd buy it. Because they're just they're just not embarrassing enough. No, do you know what I like about them is that they're slightly translucent, that that, like when you see them in profile, the light, the ambient light shines through their noses a bit. So they're a little bit translucent and I think that that's interesting. And like human skin is sort of translucent and stuff like that. You know, like I like it. I think it looks interesting. And you get the moving veins thing as well. What I was waiting for in this episode and what they could pull off really well is the, um, you know, the square of grass, the picnic scene. They could do that now, amazingly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. These haircuts, they give Burnham a spot back in the day, are a crime against nature. So when we 1st see Michael, she's got that hair card. No, no, when we 1st see her. When we when we see her in flashback joining Discovery 7 years before the opening episode. Yeah, isn't that great? That's so good. It looks like that Tardegrade from series one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think eating Michael Burnham, which I think I love. Baby Spark. Tiny baby Spock. Can I ask you a question about Michael Burnham? Yeah. Why do people like her? Because I hear this a lot. People really object to this character. Yeah, I think a huge amount of it. It's the same that is behind people disliking Ray and Jodie Whitaker as the doctor. I think that the show came back. The 1st scene has a scene that passes the Bechdell test. and has no white people in it and people are angry at a show that centres a black woman, like, frankly. I think that that's a huge reason for it. So you're saying a fair portion of this audience that like this show that's all about tolerance are intolerant. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And you see it all the time online. But all of them are like that. You know, like how are Star Wars fans all, all, all right when the the Empire, the fucking Nazis, do you know what I mean? Like, these are people who are bad at criticism and like space things and aliens and stuff and white people. And so they're angry about that. I think, though, that I think that they, that, that the weepy Burnham of series 2 is a bit of a problem and that they don't let her have enough fun. And because terrible things are happening to her all the time that's a problem. And I also don't think that people liked the the version of the show that doesn't have the bridge crew as the main characters that that was off putting. So, you know, it's always the captain that gets top billing. We're talking over the destruction of all sentient life in the galaxy, by the way. say that was an extraordinary... Yeah, actually impressive. A bit where it was like a flower spitting out pollen where the things got all the ships come out of the other ship. That was amazing. And that's the sort of thing Discovery can do. No one else. and they look like nothing that we've ever seen on Star Trek before. They don't look like Borg or anything like that. They look like sort of little weird lamprey flower things. I remember in that true episode that we did that. Forget me not, where we panned across a planet, and it was just a location shop, and they've enhanced it with dancing flowers and insects and all that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Going back to what you were saying about having a woman in the lead role. It's the same with Janeway as well. And it's definitely the same with Jodie Whisker's doctor, is they always have to be incredible because there is an audience there. The 2nd they falter, like she does in this season. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're there and they leap on it and say, well, see, we told you this wasn't going to work. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's also like there's a sort of group of fans who, when a character is presented as being supremely confident. If that's a man, like confident and competent. If that's a man, that's fine. So Luke Skywalker, you know, didn't know that he had the force, but suddenly he's, you know, destroying space station single-handedly at the end of the film. When Ray does the same thing in Force Awakens, they say that's unrealistic and she's a Mary Sue and all of those sorts of just crappy poor excuses for criticism, I think. We've still got a long way to go, haven't we? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. What I do like, though, is the inverse of that is I love how the men are shown to feel in this show. So this sequence here is a great example of that between Culbert and I forget his name, Stamets. Yeah. Yeah, this would almost be unthinkable at any point in Star Trek before this. Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah. And and like... Like Paul, like this is like nothing anyone's ever experienced. Do you know what I mean? Maybe it's happened to people where they thought someone was dead and they come back. Like maybe that's a thing that happens. It doesn't sound very plausible, but it must happen sometimes. But this, do you know what I mean? Like he thinks that this huge loss, this worst thing that ever happened to him has stopped, but it hasn't, you know, that they're not together, like. Oh, but that line he has about, why are you so angry with me? Yeah, yeah. That's a good question. That's a good question, but he doesn't know either. Like, he doesn't know either. And it doesn't even get better after he confronts Tyler, does it? No, and I think that's why they play out. while. Yeah. Yeah. You are right. The lighting. Look at the light in here. It's beautiful, isn't it? Yeah. A few times they bother to do that in 90s trek. It's it's great. It's so annoying that they didn't go, you know, that really works. Well, when they do it, when they do it in generations and we see 10 forward lit by the light of a star outside and you just think wow, that looks incredible. everyone was confused as to why we weren't on the Enterprise anymore. Where's this sweat? With a light coming in the windows. Do you think... If this is kind of a love letter to the cage, is there a problem that there's all this other stuff going on that we're sort of pulled away from it all the time? No, because I think there's probably not enough there. I just think, you know, there's a lot of balls in the air, just like there were the previous year. I mean, part of the fun of the previous year, I thought, was the mystery of who Volk was or who Ash was. Do you know what I mean? And they even created a fake IMDb profile for Vogue. and stuff. And, you know... They knew how to treat their audience. Who's law car? And all of that stuff, which was not the sort of thing that we'd ever had like big plot twists in Star Trek before, like maybe Cesca. you know, in Voyager, but otherwise we hadn't had it. DS9? Yeah, but we had long-term mysteries in the same way. It was just like this character that we'd seen in the background a bit now we discover they're evil. Like this was a little bit more central to the show. The local one was great because we kept having scenes of him in a dark room, sort of looking dancing after he'd been, you know, the good captain in there. What is going on with this guy? Well, like, Discovery's quite a horrible place, I think, in that 1st season where they're torturing the Tartar grade, and, you know everyone's horrible to Michael, like, and Paul's a prick and all that. You almost put your finger on why I wasn't keen. I'm so used to these ensemble show as well, everyone's pallid. Everything's nice and everyone loves one and all. you know, there was no dreadful banter. Everyone's talking about people. Well, like Strange New Worlds is like that. It's a lovely cast of people who we love and like hanging out with. And this show develops into that. Yeah. I can remember the beard, the moment. There you go. I mean, look at this cave set. This is like starkly lit and, you know, dramatically lit. But you're right. It's all very sombre, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I thought we were going to be. I thought we were going to be having fun with the aliens and they were going to be putting visions in their heads and, you know sending them on picnics, that kind of thing. We did get to see baby Michael Chase by a monster. was pretty cool. So we're getting the angel thing. Apparently in a latest Star Trek episode or an earlier Star Trek episode, uh, Spock says he's never mind mind melded with a human before, but clearly he does that here with Michael's mother through the um, Blue Angel, the Red Angel suit. But even then he says he doesn't get that much from her. I think. Well, one thing that sticks with me from this whole red angel thing is that very sort of foreboding image of the suit with the red light behind it. But I don't remember anything beyond that apart from a load of weepy scenes between Michael and her mum and... Yeah, yeah. Well, that sort of just skipped out of my head. And there's a very much more low-key reunion in series three remember, when Michael meets her mother again and she's become one of the Romulan sincerity nuns. And, uh, you know, we're sort of on Navarre and stuff and we don't have all of that crap, like it's all a little bit less kind of overwrought. Melissa George has the most incredible lips, doesn't she? Yeah, doesn't she? She's stunning. She was born to pow. Yeah. Yeah. No, she's a good version of Vina, I think. So what's happening here? Spock is in an asylum, by all accounts. It looks a bit like that, bit in DS9. Remember when Cisco was writing all over the walls? Yeah, so we've actually seen video of this that ends with spot killing the 3 people who come in and that's faked, I think, by section 31. And so the whole 1st half of this season is where's Spock when Spock going to join us and that's one of the sort of ongoing things. Spock's gone missing. Look at the hot guy on the ride. The unfortunate thing about bringing him in though. I remember watching this and preferring being with Spock and Pike than I did with the Discovery crew because they were so well done. Both of them. What a surprise they've had their own... Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, Una as well. Do you remember there's a scene where Una's on discovery, where number one's on discovery, eating a burger and stuff and she's just as cool as anything. She was around, was she? I don't seem to remember. No. But one of the short tracks is Spock's 1st day on board the Enterprise and her meeting Una, and that's really fun. I've got to say just for handing us hotspock. Discovery has singlehandedly. Yeah, but it's earnest. Hey, that's justified. Well, you know, launching Strange New Worlds. Like, I think Strangely Worlds is a much more fun version of Star Trek than this. And this is trying to be more sort of serious and complicated which, you know, is worth a try. And I'd like to see it try again. I mean, they try it with Picard, I think, with varying degrees of success as well. Um, Yeah. Yeah, it's weird, isn't it? Because I think Picard and Discovery are the 2 most interesting the most substantial of the new Kurtzman shows and they're my 2 least favourites. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So maybe I just like Star Trek 3 be a big disposable. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Though I think I think that having a suite of shows that all is trying to do different things in a way that we did in the 90s where everything, you know, D Space 9 is its own thing and does different things, but they all, they're all of a look and they're all set in the same time period and all of that sort of thing. Like having a suite of shows that's all vastly different is more interesting, I think. Fast coming to the conclusion, talking with you, that DS9 is actually the biggest comic or cartoon starship we ever got. Yeah, you know, the top characters. Yeah, yeah. Well, it's a sitcom. Those are sitcom characters that behave in sort of predictable ways that are fun to watch for that reason and because you can violate expectations with them as well. Whereas you couldn't do that with a character on, you know, and you know, Star Trek, the Next Generation, because they're all just their jobs. I didn't realise this was the turbo lift this scene. It's like, what room's he in? Talk with this old base. sort of long form season storytelling is if you're not on board with that season story, you're in a lot of trouble. Yeah, although different episodes can be more successful than others. Part of the problem with our show is that we're doing random episodes and this is not something that this version of Star Trek works particularly well with... USTP is almost entirely perfect with 90s trek, isn't it? standalone episode. No consequences. It doesn't matter what order you watch it in. They're all standalone and they're basically either good or bad. Whereas I'm fine with these Kurtzman episodes. Yeah. There's not really... out and out classics and there's not really out and out duds. There's good and bad in all the extra... Except strange new worlds. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, now this, right. What I think is really interesting here. is like they just decide. So, Saru says this has to be allowed to play out. And you kind of think, no, no, how is that being permitted? How are we not stopping it? And like, I think it's, I actually think it's okay. I think, you know, yes, let them do this. What possible rules can there be about this? You know, and we know that Ash is a good man and doesn't want to hurt Hugh. And we know, you know, like, like, look, they're holding one another and they rest against one another when they're tired. You know, like it's, and it doesn't work. That's the thing. He finds that it doesn't satisfy him. It doesn't help to have beaten, look at that. Look at that. They're supporting one another. holding one another up. And this, I don't even know who I am anymore. And he replies, who do you think you're talking to? It's me. I was vogue. You know, I don't know who I am either. It's, you know, and I, I, oh, look, doesn't he look beautiful with his hair? I did want to join you in that conversation there, but I was just mesmerised by the pair of them. What it actually reminded me of was the scene I told you about in Voyager, where Chakotay slugs someone in the mess hole. Yeah. And it's just in no way as effective as that because Voyager rejected that sort of conflict, didn't it? Look at this scene. You allowed the fight to proceed. And he says, yes, you know, we needed the catharsis. And then and then Pike says it's not by the book. And then he goes, oh, the Starfleet manual offers no regulatory guidelines for interactions between humans with Klingons grafted onto their bones. you know, like this is an absurd situation and I'm not going to be by the book and he's being silly. Like the way he delivers the line is hilarious. I'm sorry, all I could notice was the fact that the camera was spinning for no reason. It was just turning for no reason. I don't know why. I feel as if it's trying to tell me that something is occurring in the story when the camera is moving like that, but it's not. They're just in the lift. I think it tries too hard sometimes. It's visual interest. No, no, no, I think I think visual distraction. But we're reacting against a show that was very, very boringly directed on the whole or a whole suite of shows that were boringly directed. And, you know, we're also doing this in the context of the film. So I think it'd be interesting for us to do like a modern Star Trek film, one of the, you know, film. But I think they've learned from this as well, because it's strangely wells is not directed like this at all. They do visually interesting things. They don't do all this weird camera work for no reason whatsoever. So they're learning. Doesn't Frekes do it? I'm sure Frank still does it. I'll put one on. Any excuse to watch that show. It's got to be chosen soon on the random line. I don't care how few episodes we've got to watch Oh yeah, so we needed this scene between Pike and Vina, didn't we? the big love story from the cage. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and I can't really quite remember because I know, so she ends up with a fake pike at the end of the cage. Is that right? And then we cut it together a bit differently for the menagerie part two. And so she's being led off by the real pike, but it's the same shot from the cage and it's, no, yeah, because the real pike's then been restored. And the thing is, they can give us sort of all this romantic lighting and frame them in silhouette on all of this and make it look like they were, but it's nowhere near as hot as that previous scene in the mess hole. No, that's true. But that bit where they 2 came away from each other, I was like they're going to fuck any man any 2nd now. So, what I also like, and it's something that they, that's the right decision, that they, they could so easily have got wrong which is finding a way to get out of this not to happen. Like, so what's going to happen to Pikes, that he'll be killed in a horrible accident and reduce to this sort of utterly terrifying existence from which is essentially... Yeah, yeah. So but it, yes. In fact, what Strange New Worlds doesn't try and get out of it. That's what I think is happening. The reason that we're doing this is the one thing we know about pike is what happens to him in the menagerie. You know, the cage wasn't originally part of the show's run, and I don't think anyone just saw it as a show until much, much later. Yeah. And so the one thing we know about Pike is he ends up in that chair. Yeah. and just and Una even says, you know, time might not be fixed. You don't know how this is going to end, and the final episode of series one of Strange New Worlds absolutely says there's no way out of this for Pike. And you know, that there is something comforting and safe about watching that show kind of knowing where those characters are all going to end up. I can't explain it. It is. Like they can put them in danger, things like, well, we kind of know Spock's going to go on to be on the Enterprise, Sojahura. So number one, I quite like that. You'd think that would be the death of a series, wouldn't you? Well, in fact, one of the fun things about those old scientists was that at that point, Spock and Christina in a relationship. And of course it can't go anywhere because we know what Spock ends up being like and what ends up happening to him. But that had not really occurred to me because they'd been invested in it in the context of the show. And so you have a Star Trek fan in Boheemler coming along to point out that the relationship doesn't go anywhere because of course it can't. It's the best episode ever. But it means they get to have fun with that continuity as well, to suggest, you know, are they going to change this? Because we know that in a mock time, you know, he's fighting over that woman on the planet. But also as well, I just think there's a great feeling of we're going to go on a hell of an adventure before we get to that point. Let's go on a rise, you know? that's that's fun. I think so too. I mean, I like how kind of difficult the difficult relationship this show has with continuity just generally in these 1st 2 seasons. What were those things just lying in there then? They're cleaning up. They're cleaning up the mass up brawl. Did you see me staring at the screen like an old man? I'm just too old to watch Discovery, I think. Do you remember the dots as well? The little the little dots? Yeah. Yeah. In that, yeah, that late series 3 episode we watched for USTP. What's great about this is entirely rejecting, you know, our standard TNG. Dr. Crusher has repaired everyone with her usual skill because there is an episode where Troy is killed. And then they go, look, we've got 11 minutes of her being dead and then I have to bring her back and then she's in the next scene. She goes, oh, so I sleep on something like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. right. Which is what Genesis is making fun of in that final saying. Mark me, that's it, that long shot. That's set with the polished floor and the lighting. It's beautiful isn't it? Look, reflective surfaces. Wow, you do love them. Yeah, and you're right. I think there is a portion of the audience I just cannot handle that this bridge crew, these extraneous characters, and some of them do, like, Detma, is it? She does get some stuff to do later on down the line. And OWO does as well. In fact, one of the things that Pike does is he has a scene where he makes all of these people, like Bryson Reese and Dettman and Oho all say their names so that the viewers at home have some hope of knowing who they are. Whereas really they're just scenery in series one and very pretty scenery too. I can't remember what episode you said it on, but when you were talking about the spinoffs of TNG. Oh, let's do a space station, but essentially all the same roles. Then let's do another spaceship, just in the last week. And then let's do another spaceship, but just in the past, with all the same roles, the doctor, the commander, da da. This is the 1st time we've broken out of that mould. Yeah. And I really liked that. Like, I was really here for it. And, um, you know, I liked... understand why people got programmed that that is Star Trek, sort of pushing against this and going yeah, but what is this? No one's wiped their old tapes. You know, you can just go and watch the same old thing if that's what you really want. What I want Star Trek to do is something that I haven't seen before. Except when you watch Strange New World. So that we're happy for them to do TOS. Well, yeah, but they do it so well. Well, it means we can have our cake and eat it, can't we? Yeah, exactly. These shows forging ahead, doing something bold. We've got strange new worlds. See that woman there? Who's a bar? Barzan? Hmm? That she's a barzan? Where? I've missed her. Sorry. There she is in the ride of that shot. Just have a look. She's in this scene. She's got long hair, sort of slightly dark skin. The character's name is Narn. It's the woman that he just passed the thing to. And she's got those things there and she's one of the aliens who are in the price. Ah, I do question, whether you know me at all, you know, when you ask me, notice one of the aliens when Pike and Tyler are on camera. That's true. Oh, plus Saru. very tall. And this caught guy at the back. I don't know who that is, but he's very pretty. Bryce, the black guy. I feel like Saru's the odd man out really, isn't he? He's the only sort of person in this show that... He's the only straight white guy, but he may not be... Well, no, we don't know, do we? Well, we've got a straight white guy, it's the captain. That is such a striking look, that robot. Yeah, yeah. And look, it's her. It's not Tyler at all. See? Where are we now? Back on Talos. Is it Channel 7? Tell us four. Whoops. We lost our audience in the 1st 5 minutes. It's like, what do these people know about Star Trek? Nothing until? Well, it'd be awfully dull if we agreed all the time as well wouldn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I think so. It's a Sanequa, Melissa George Pout off here. Yeah, isn't it? So, so we are going to see this scene, and I think, sorry, sorry to interrupt, but Ethan Peck's getting in on it as well. I know. My money is on here. Sorry, you were saying. Well, so we are going to see this backstory, and I think that the backstory scene is a little bit obvious and a little bit rightly. Like, I think it's the sort of thing that you would have imagined. So part of the backstory here. Remember, is that the school that Michael, the learning centre that Michael attended as a child was bombed by, was it by logic separatists? And so, so, and you know, we see a scene where Sarek, uh, you know is is going to be, you know, killed by logic separatists and stuff like that. So they're just kind of white Vulcan supremacists, aren't they? Um, this kid. Why they've got this little cherubic, cute kid? It's too little. He's too little. He's not serious enough to be spogged. He's got Alexander back all over him. But I think what the good thing that they do is just swapping the adult act is in. Yeah, you know. Yeah, I think that and that's a bit more interesting, I think because they're obviously better actors and it makes it weird. You know, like because. It's just like one of those scenes, though, on any modern drama where they have 2 people in a therapy room and say shout at each other. Go on. Get your feelings out. They're doing it for space reasons, though. I like, you'll always be cold and distant like a moon somewhere. I think it's a very rightly line. But there's, I like like a moon somewhere for some reason. It's such a strange thing. And I think there might be a callback to it later because obviously she's got to say goodbye to him at the end of this series. Rusty old Joe Ford is trying very hard as well to see who's talking through the lens flare as well. So I'm having a bit of trouble there. Yeah, I like how they give adult Michael the line, you weird little half breed, and then you see adult Spock reacting to it by crying. You know, I think that's much better. I think that's true. That is right. I was pretty shocked by this sort of intolerance, but you and me have done a ton of 90s training. We sound so much racism in there from the characters as we've gone along. It's not a shock, you know, like people behave this way. No. Yeah. Roddenbury would be appalled though. I mean, just 2 people having an argument would be appalled. Well, yeah, and I think that's a shame. But, I mean, in original Star Trek, there's plenty of racism directed against Spark. Oh, loads. Yeah. And by McCoy very frequently too. And could I just, like, I've mentioned how hot he is, but can't for Peck to take on this role? And so win everybody over because I've not heard a bad word about his performance. Like bravo. Yeah, I think Zachary Quinto did a pretty good job in the films. That picture us all the other day of the 2 of them together. Yeah, yeah, yeah. great. I was like, yeah, if you put Nemo in there as well, they've all got a certain look in the eye. Yeah. But I think that like they give Peck fun, cute things to do, which is kind of nice. And having him have this emotional crisis sort of early on, you know, over Christine in particular, I think is really great. Do you hear what Spock said just then? That should have been the bye word for this season. Do not attempt to psychoanalyse me. better people than you have tried and failed. Someone should have said that in the penultimate episode. I think he gets a really funny line later on, which I really really liked, and it's a cheesy line, but I did laugh out loud at it. And he, you know, like, I think there's a reason why in the 2 seasons so far of Strange New Worlds have given him a role in a sort of ludicrous Vulcan sex comedy, because I think he's funny. You know? Yeah, but they do have to, they do sort of have to contrive situations where you can really loosen up and peck and just have fun. Yeah, well, like in Elysium Kingdom, for instance, which is pretty cool. But I just always feel with Peck, like with Nemoy, there's just always this sort of glint in the eye. There's no inlook that the character is enjoying himself and having fun in the adventures. So Leland's obviously he'll be killed at the end by control, but he's pretty great. Um, and he's our sort of antagonist in section 31, which they've brought back for this year. I'll just say, the fact that they, they even chose to represent the terrible black tunics that they had in DS9 for the section 31 characters. I mean, that's detail, that is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think see the gold, you know, the badge, the insignia badge, and I think section 31 have a black one, like a shiny black one, which is pretty great. Oh, Tilly. See, every time she appears. Oh, smile. Yeah, yeah, she's great. More of her. Oh, that bit Nathan, that bit where her and Stammet sing the David Bowie song in Sick Bay. Oh man. Oh, look, this all this fucking lens flare. Well, no, because look at me. I feel like I'm at a disco. Oh, I do sound like an old man. Yeah, yeah. But the point of it is to create a sense of unreality around this scene, because he's remembering her and it's his memory of her that reassures her, you know, that reassures him that the right thing to do is, you know, that the Talotians will sort this. The Tolosians will let Michael and Spot go. Like they won't let them go with Leila. create a sense of unreality. Start tilting the cameras again then. Well, I couldn't tell the cameras and did lens flair for that scene. Look, it's beautiful, sad. Yeah. And that set's pretty impressive too. Oh, that guy's got no sleeves. Whoa. Yeah, it is. Section 31 is evil, so of course they're in black. Yep. yep. And they've got a big pit in the middle of their ship where people go in. A bit like DS no, isn't it? They had a pit an ops. Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, there was all evil in that as well, I've always, so... I like their ship. Certain characters. Just make you smile, didn't they? Yeah, yeah. This is cousin Michelle. She's making... It's because they sort of guarantee a good time. Yeah, yeah. It's like when Garak or Dukat or something like that. Yeah, it's like Cesca in Voyager, you know? Yep. If your show's there, do you remember that dinner scene in that episode we watched, everyone else is talking about having fun and she's just... We're eating all those loading up with seafood. She's sparing it all up having a great time. So this, where the 2, like, they're clearly simulacra, and we know that already, because we know the shuttle's coming up to the enterprise, so at this point we know they're not real. Say goodbye, Spock, and he turns and goes goodbye, Spock, and then they vanish. Like it's such a cheesy old joke, but I think it's really cute. But and I think that's probably the most fun moment in that plot. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, also, that's like the most beard. I mean, the one fun moment. No, no, she gets to say something, she gets to be snarky about his beard. Like, he's her younger brother. is very serious. It is very serious. I mean, I mean, look at this player, Pike and Spock. No one that I gave a new show. I know exactly right. I do realise I do spend a great deal of UTSP admiring the men of Star Trek. Yeah, well, yeah. Look at them. Why wouldn't you? No, exactly. Oh, Burnham just did the eyebrow race. Yes, that's what I think is really funny. I think that's really awesome. So he says the thing, and then she turns and does the Vulcan eyebrow rays, which I just thought was great, and there we get welcome to Discovery, which I think is pretty awesome too. Oh my god, the best line. She's just saying... Yeah, yeah, she wipes out. their stupid planes. Oh, see, we're laughing again. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Why wasn't it more fun than this? It can? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think they are serious. That should have been the story. She blew up the planet at the end. Look at him walking off. It's Michelle yo. Great. Oh, stop making movies. Come back to Star Trek. Jesus, what the hell is that thing? Beyond Spork. Yeah, I'm not quite sure what that guy is. I think he gets a credit. Is he... Yeah, no, I'm not sure. He's something. I don't know. That is incredible. He needs a close up. Well, it's not Linus or the other guy. Like there's 2 kind of big weird aliens, but that strange alien is a thing. I can't remember what he is. You know what I'd love? I'd love for that to be a knowing line about the lens flare. Look at uh, race. Reese is standing next to Tilly, looking very pretty. And Bryce is standing next to Garrium. We're tilt in the camera again as we go in. So the other thing that someone said to me the other day was every week on Star Trek Discovery. Every week on Star Trek Strange New World. The captain says, we're going to disobey orders or Una says, we're going to disobey orders. take the ship off and you don't have to do this if you don't want to. And I think it happens twice in series 2 and we've just done it here as well. It's just like, yeah, we're just going to take the ship, like whatever. And that seems to happen all the time, which I think, you know that's kind of fun. It's better than just going on the missions. There's Melissa George's credit. Now, we found a few bits to admire about that and we found smacking that we liked and certainly we enjoyed the production. I would call that a failure, though, in the... It doesn't deliver much entertainment for its runtime. Well, I think that it's too serious and I think that that's why series 2 is, for me, the weakest series. Series one is also very serious, but it does have light moments as well. But I don't know. It did make me think maybe I should watch season 2 all the way through. 14 episodes. It's quite long. But I have only seen it through once at the time, and I've gone back and seen this one, obviously, because, you know, it's the Talos 41. But it would be fun to experience this in context, I think. I feel like this should be the standout episode of series two. This is like the big dig into the past and it should be sort of the most trek episode of series 2 because we are going back to where it all began. Yeah, yeah. Why are we going back here otherwise? I guess it's, I don't know. Why are we going back? I guess because they can cure Spock? Is that it? Because it's in the back. fun thing to do. Yeah. But instead it's an overwrought thing. You know, it becomes all about their childhood feelings about each other. The biggest problem with this is I think it just comes maybe 2 seasons, too early. Yeah, maybe. I think if they were going to do this in five, you know. Yeah. Well, then it would have been fun, then it would have been more fun. But I don't think fun is what they're trying to do here. I think they're trying to tell a big epic story. And I think they kind of manage that, but I do think that means that it's a bit leaden from time to time because everything has this sort of massive weight and everyone has to feel big things about everything and they don't leaven it with humour often enough I think. And like, you know, I'm not going to labour the point too much, but I do feel the DS9 episode and the Strange New World episode, it was a massive loving for original Star Trek, you know, and you felt and you went along for the ride and you had a great time. I do think there is a little bit of, we are a bit embarrassed, but we're going to do this because it was Star Trek. So we're just going to make it look great. Absolutely not. I think that because they didn't have to do it. They could have gone to a planet of their own invention. They didn't need to do this, but they deliberately choose to end series one with the enterprise arriving and they choose to make the captain Christopher Pike, and they choose to explore his backstory all throughout the year. And I think they do that because they love Star Trek. But I think they show us the original episode at the beginning to say, we're going to do this for you, but with modern production sensibilities, and we're going to make it look as spectacular and weird as we can. And I think there are bits of it that are spectacular and weird but there's a fair bit of standing around in a fairly darkened room and sort of talking about stuff and that's a bit disappointing, I think. I just think maybe they shouldn't have done this. And I certainly don't think they should have put that at the beginning of the episode because what I've got here is 30 seconds of material that I think is really colourful and fun and and then a boring 50 minutes afterwards, that isn't celebrating what it was advertising at the beginning. I think the cage is actually comparably boring, probably. 60s soak so it looks... So it looks sort of super colourful and stuff like that. But I do think that this is a love letter to it. And I do think that making pike so like doing such a good job with pike that we get strange new worlds. You know, they do pike, they do number one, and they do Spock, and they do all 3 of them so well that everyone's clamouring to have them back, and they go, yes, actually that would be a good idea. Let's do a show of that. And doing the whole pike thing. Remember what they do in this series is they give Pike the opportunity to see his death and it's not his death, but his accident and its consequences, and then they let him freely choose that. Do you remember that? That's coming later in the series. And so they really want to do Pike and they want to do him properly. And so to do him properly, you have to do, tell us four, I think because that's the only place we've seen him before. Well, in fact, Christ, they got all this introspection over and done with, so then he can go on strangely wells and have some fun and have some fun. Exactly right. Although, you know, like it does start, doesn't it? It does start with him lying in bed with that horrific beard, much much worse than Spock's beard, feeling bad because he's going to be killed, you know, at some and then he decides actually, no, it's what I do in the meantime that matters. You know, that's kind of good, but that we do start from that place and we do have flashbacks to that episode. Um, you know, well, don't worry, because uh, Krusty, you know grumpy Joe Ford is going to be really happy because I know where we're going next and it's going to be a weld of static cameras and flat overhead lighting. And predictably dull storytelling. So I'll be happy next week. I can hardly wait. All right, it's the end of our episode, and it is time, as Joe threatened, to go back to the 90s for some solid old-fashioned entertainment in the Rick Berman Star Trek universe. So, Joe, tell us which of the series we're going to be choosing from this week. Well, I promise, you know, predictable storytelling, static camera work, flat overhead licing. So naturally we're heading to Star Trek, the Next Generation, Deep Space Iron, and Voyager. Excellent. The three. The three. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. The 3 main ones. Let's see. We never know. We might find the one, you know, Looks good. Oh, no, no. Okay, your random Star Trek Voyager episode is season six, episode 25, the haunting of deck 12. Oh my god. That is the one where Nicolix is telling the story to the little kittywigs that we just made in collective. Yeah, yeah. We have just done season six. All right. Okay. the masterpiece society. Yeah, not doing that. Oh, I always do. I always bring this one up and then we never do it. Okay, what is it? Well, random Star Trek D Space 9 episode is season six, episode two, Rocks and Shoals. I swear we've been to past this twice already. Why don't we do it? I mean, it's great. And actually, do you know what? It's just as serious as what we've just watched. So it's a good chance to it. Yeah, I thought you might want DS9. Wrong starker than death or not, you know? where we're all having overwrought conversations about ourselves and stuff. And I'm going to let you into a little secret that's going to get you very excited. Oh, what's that? They go outside. Yes, I remember that. I remember I said to you about how they always complained. Apparently that was the hottest shoot. they've ever had. Andrew Robinson was melting. Oh, no. That's right. All those Jem'adar as well, poor bastards. And this is us skipping from the last 10 to the other big arc which is the 6 episodes at the beginning of six. Yeah. No, I think that's good. Like, they do a good job of, you know, like getting us back to the status quo, but making us work for it. And I seem to remember those 6 episodes being pretty great. Please, I hope so. I always promise we're going to love things and then, well, I said we were going to love this one, didn't I? Well, I liked it. I liked it. I like talking about it with you. Okay, rocks and shoals. Let's do it. Brilliant. lets do it You've been listening to untitled Star Trek Project with Joe Port and Nathan Bottomley, where online at untitled Star Trek Project.com, where you can find subscription links and links to our social media accounts. Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceran and the theme was composed by Cameron Lamb. This episode was recorded on the 5th of September 2023 and released on the 8th of September. We'll see you next time for Star Trek Deep Space 9, Rocks and Shoals. That sounded more like an old man. Cameras movie. I'm going. I'm looking at the screen. What are those things? Why did they go to the quarry instead of just doing a terrible set in the studio? Oh, star by my point. Shit, an alert. Because that's the other thing too. Yeah, remember that first... Oh, let's just go straight through then, if you've got to go. Oh my god, I just brought up untold Star Trek project. and assignment Earth. That was so fun. What happened to those days? Yeah, great. Everyone hates it. It's like a night in Sick Bay. Okay, here we go. Oh my god. The struggle is right, is we do have to do a lot of 90s right because there's so much of it. so fucking much of it. Yeah. Okay, most of my free favourites. Okay, all right. whenever you're ready. All right, it's the end of our episode.