Alliances

Hey, Joe. Hi. So, we are now back in Star Trek Voyager, and we're in a period of Star Trek Voyager that I think both of us generally like, which is kind of the 1st 2 seasons, both of us generally like, nobody else does. No, that's true. And certainly the people who take over. I think most people think that Star Trek Voyager didn't start until season four. Okay. When Jerry Ryan joined, but I think most people sort of think of this sort of Kazon Cesca period as best forgotten. Whereas I think this is the sort of the rare times when Voyager actually glimpses at achieving its potential. Yeah. So this is season two, episode 14, and its alliances, and we've already done the episode that sort of outs Cesca, as a Cardassian and that introduces March Colour. Uh, I don't think so. I don't think colour comes along till season two. She beams off the ship at the end of the episode, doesn't she? Oh, no, is that the one where she goes? I don't like bullies and I don't like you. Oh, okay, maybe it wasn't. Yeah. Did you know right? He was supposed to be written out in this episode. Originally, this assassination attempt at the end. It was very... Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it was going to be like, of course, going to be the big sort of dramatic twist at the end. And he went to Jerry Taylor and said, look, now you've written this. I'm just dead on the floor. He goes, Carmen, you had me twitching in agony or something like that, you know, like I want a big scene to go out on. I've given you, you know, a season and a half for me. And she went, don't worry, we like you so much. We've rewritten it. You're staying in the show. So he was doing something right that they were noticing. And so this is kind of leading up to a sort of half season that is going to prepare us for basics, which is the series 2 Cliffhanger which is pretty good. I think. It's what you say, it's the, I think it's the only time Voyager does what you said to me before, and that is, it's a threat to the premise of the show, is that they're all booted off Voyager, and how can you Voyager without Voyager? It's a great cliffhanger. Yeah, it is really good, I think. And perhaps the resolution is not too bad either. You know, and it's Voyager's 1st cliffhanger because they kind of did whatever the hell it was. They did at the end of series one last time, the 37s. Hopefully convinced as well that Marfa Hackett's Cesca is the best villain, that Voyager ever had, that way she sort of purrs like a soap opera villain. Hello, Chacone, you know, every time she comes. I mean, there's nothing subtle about her at all. The one where she pops up with the baby, you know, the pregnant stomach. I'm having your baby chickle day. And they tried. I think they did try with the ball queen in later seasons to have like a big villain, but because she's sort of so cold. It's nowhere near as fun. No. Yeah. Yeah, see, this was kind of fun. This was a version of Voyager that had more than 7 people on board the ship and that seemed to be happening in a sort of world where there were other people that they knew and stuff. And I guess most people have a problem in that that sort of stretches plausibility. And I think there is one moment here where I kind of tend to agree with them. But it's kind of fun to have a series of episodes leading up to a sort of big giant cliffhanger. The episodes in themselves are pretty great. This is a this is good. I think this is flawed. I think there are some pretty serious problems with it. But it's so enjoyable, I think. I think the pilot, caretaker. I promised 2 things. It promised 2 crews and some tension between those 2 crews. And we got them for a couple of episodes. And then somewhere in the middle of season one, they just forgot about it and everyone was getting on happy as Larry until this point. And we remember it again for a single episode and then that's it. We're all Federation all the way because Jayway makes a fabulous speech at the end to remind us why the rules of the Federation are the best allies we can have, you know? Or something. But the other thing it promised was this sort of overarching story with the Kazon, which we only touched upon. We had state of flux. There's the one with Aaron Eisenberg Carr. There's manoeuvres and then there's this initiations. Yeah. Initiations? sort of a season and a half . That's only 4 episodes, you know. And I said to you off, Mike, if this was DS9, the events that take place in alliances would be spread across like half a season. And we would see this playing out in a much more interesting way. What you've got is sort of a condensed development of that plot within this episode and then we can forget all about it for a couple of episodes and, you know, do some more TNG knockoffs. We've got threshold next week. That's right. We missed it just by one. What's interesting, what is that Jerry Taylor did the teleplay for this? Yeah. And I think that it's a story by Michael Piller, but teleplate by Jerry Taylor, and this is exactly what she didn't want for the show. She didn't want arcs, she didn't want secondary characters. She wanted, you know, standalone episodes, just like TNG, sort of fun romps, which is what we got when she took over in series three. I think it's so interesting that one of the better examples of an ongoing narrative episode is written by Jerry Taylor, and it's good. Yeah. I think it's such a shame that I love the fact that there was a strong female voice. in the Voyager writing stuff. Yeah. I don't think it's a shame. I don't really agree with a lot of the decisions that she made. Yeah. Well, what do you think? Should we go in? Let's see what she's got to offer. Yeah. All right. Five, four, three, two, one, and we're off. So this is a bit of a cheat, isn't it? This is what you were talking about, I think. So we start with the ship being attacked by the Kazon and apparently it's been going on for a long time. Uh, and obviously it started after um, prototype or whatever happened last week and it's been going on for a bit. So this is a new kind of premise in a way. This is them being hammered by the Kazon, kind of more or less all the time. Janeway's got her crisis. is in such disarray, things I've got that they are in trouble. But do you remember I told you, the 1st half on series 2, they, the writers all looked at each other and said, this isn't working. Like, we need to up our game here. And from manoeuvres onwards, they did try and inject more action and yeah, a bit more urgency into the story. And this is a good example of that, opening an episode with an exciting wig and all around the ship. everyone's sort of in crisis mode. Yeah, it's not bad. I mean, you know, like it's it's reasonably good, I think. A lot of people shouting, lots of low light, you know, the camera juttering, all of that. Oh, some... Plenty of dry ice spitting out of every single console. that's right Oh no. Don't give Tom Parrot's prices lines. I'll wait. Chivalk, we've sustained massive damage. That's his line for the episode. There we go. That's Tuvok. In fact, TikTok does get a scene in this, which is super weird. Oh my god. brilliant Star Trek metaphor scenes, isn't it? Oh my god. She should have just Vulcan Orchid. Wait till we get there. It's so bad It's so bad. Do you notice they're doing a bit of handheld camera work as well? Yeah, yeah. To give it a bit of drama. Oh, dear. So one of the marquee crew members has been is now dead. Yeah, would you say that we've been across to Belana? We just went, shoot straight across the thing. Whipan, there's B'lana. She actually does a reasonable reaction. Um, I think to that. So, so here's the argument now. Okay, so this guy's dead. I actually quite like, you know, her reaction and all of that sort of thing. And, and we get the idea that there's more than one person on the ship, which we did with state of flux as well, where, you know they had friends that Cesca and Chakotay had been friends with other members of the crew and stuff. Although, you know, Kruber and Bandera, who saved Chakotay's life has never been seen before or, you know, is his absolute best friend of the marquis we've never seen before. Yeah. I can't even notice her hair is immaculate now. She, she, she let him in. She's like, hang on. I'm just doing my hair. I think early Chakotay, they made some effort to make him quite interesting. Like I'm not talking about the Native American stuff. I'm talking about him sort of straddling between the Federation and the Marquis. There's one great scene in learning curve where you've got a couple of marquee crew members bitching about the way Janeway's running the ship and he goes, well, you want to do it the way the marquee do it. He's like, yeah, and he just punches him straight in the face. He says, that's how we used to do it. But once they abandon this whole sort of tension thing between the 2 crews, Chicoto is very boring after that. Yes, yeah. Yeah, he checks out, I think. I think, don't you think? Robert checks out and isn't being given any interesting material and we've all realised long ago that casting him as a Native American is a problem and we probably shouldn't bring it up all that often because it's a bit embarrassing. Can we talk about Jane Way, please? Because I think this is a problematic episode for one of our favourite captains who, as I said to you, comes across as both very stubborn and extremely naive. Yeah, which is a hell of a fate to pull off. I think she also comes across as incredibly racist and we'll get there. I want to hear your reading on this. Is it because she takes, you know, she makes friends with the supremacists. Yeah, essentially. So she's terrible. So what's so what kind of happens here is apparently Starfleet doesn't allow them to have alliances with warp capable civilisations or something. They're not allowed to make alliances and that's Starfleet rules. And I don't know why that Starfleet rules and where that comes from. Well, that's the whole point of the Federation, isn't it? is to... Yeah, I mean... Exactly. I mean, you think, because this happens so often now, we're sort of into our full Star Trek series. I mean, and there's a many an episode where a ship's been flung off into space or a space station's been sent off to another quadrant or whatever, that there would be a caveat in the prime predirective by this point that says, look, if you're in a region of space and you're on your own, you can make some friends. But it just seems, it seems ridiculous. It's not, so it's a version of Starfleet that we need to have for this episode to be about something. And then we learn a valuable lesson that we can't make alliances with people. And like that's crap. What is that? One is exactly the sort of thing that she was saying to Seska in state of flux, isn't it? is that no, we're not allowing ourselves with these people. But it is a weird stubbornness because calm series 7 in the void that we talked about. Yeah. She's like, well, look, we're trapped in this region of space, you know, away from the Delta Quadron. start making alliances with people. Yeah, yeah. I thought, are you taking the piss? Because the void is just a microcosm of Voyager. It's like Voyager within Voyager. In a single episode. showing what they should have done with the entire episode. right. And so it makes no sense. The whole thing that she's saying, we can't make alliances with people because what? There's a rule about it, which has never been mentioned before. Oh, can I just say that this fucking story, the crewman's funeral is such tedious Star Trek crap. I thought you love these backstories for one. Yeah, yeah, good story, Robert. He was my friend from that moment time. And he kept on fighting the good fight, Nathan. It's so cheesy. Look at the way Jane Wayne's looking at him with such a, oh, what a fascinating story. A bit of a reaction from Roxanne, who is, after all, very good. Yeah, yeah. I've got a quote here, you know, from Simon Billick, who plays Crewman Hogan, the man with the incredible eyes. Yeah, doesn't he have incredible eyes? Is he a bait, is it? don't know. It's that same sort of black eyes, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, debates sense. He says everybody there made me feel extremely comfortable including the director. My 1st day ended up going so well that I almost didn't get any sleep that night because I wanted so badly to go back the next day and do my scene, my 1st scene with Kate Mulgrew. She gave me a bit of advice while I was doing my scene with her. I was a little worried because it was so confrontational, but Kate sort of hinted that what I was doing was okay. She put her hand on my shoulder and said, I want you to go for it again. But further. And that's why we get the scene that we get here, the where he's really angry. I'm wondering if Margaret was a bit of a presence, you know, people didn't want to, you know, go out. We were scared of her. So this introduces both Hogan and Jonas, and I don't know that we've had Jonas's name yet. Yeah. And the whole sort of Jonas subplot where he's contacting Seska in the case. Later, to be unearthed by an Elix is fabulous. Breakfast with Neelix TV show. Jesus Christ. What were I thinking? But this, like, I think that there has to be a better reason for not giving the case on what they want. And so she has good grounds not to trust the Kazon. You know, um, they're terrible for all sorts of reasons, you know they were going to kill the, the, a calm par, but that was the whole sort of purpose of the 1st episode. She's black and blue. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They've you know, they've stolen their technology before and tried to use it. So all of this. So why isn't it just they? It's not Starfleet says we can't have alliances. It's, it's her judgement, her personal judgement that the case will not be trusted. And that's reasonable given what's happened, I think. Can I ask you, look, why, why can't they have a democracy on the ship? I mean, nobody ever planned for this ship of people to be cut off from. So why can't there be a vote on whether to do things or not? Because I don't think the rules of the Federation work in the Delta Quadrant. But it depends on what the rules of the Federation are. If the rules are, you aren't allowed to make alliances with anyone at all and you just have to kind of make your own way through, then that's nonsense. Like, that's just ridiculous. You specify in one episode, you're not allowed to shift the balance of power or something like that. That's the line. But by being there, they are shifting the balance of power in the Delta Quadrant. Like, that's going to happen no matter what. But and the sharing technology thing is a sort of reasonable thing that's a thing that you can imagine them doing, oh, and now this right? So we have a backstory where Team Ross, where Tuvok is her old friend, and he's the most singular member. One of the best relationships in the show, I think, when they remember it. Yeah, yeah. So he, they're trying to do it. But like, why are they explaining to one another how often Janeway has come into 2 Fox quarters? What sort of conversation is that? And what like what? It's the worst kind of science fiction dialogue when 2 people explain something that they already know. It's so themselves. I mean, obviously, it's got our sakes, isn't it? But this is our particular problem in 90s straight. that DS9 thing of catching us up with the arc plots, you know. They are our greatest allies, you know? But it's also just a lack of faith in the audience. they can't think of lines that will sell that relationship without just saying out loud in words, what the relationship is, and they don't think we would understand any line like that if they were able to come up with it, I think. Well, as well. Is that of just tackling the problem that they have in front of them? He makes this shitty fucking metaphor about a plan where we're supposed to think, oh, that's such a clever way of explaining why you should make alliances. And they do this. And season 2, it is particularly bad. I don't think there's an episode goes by where someone hasn't got a problem and someone doesn't come in and go, you know, I once had a spaceship, you know, we funded on this other bit of technology and it really works out well. Fucking Mullerbok in the tree, isn't it? Like, it's that. But that was funny. Yeah, because they make fun of it, but it is a terrible, like, it was terrible. You just need mother box to come along. You're like, why are you telling a story about your orchids? Yeah, yeah, tell us that be awkward. Instead it's so serious. She goes, what a great point you made there, you know. And then there's another thing here too. That is kind of interesting, I think. And I did read a little bit about this because I was trying to work out what they were thinking when the Kazon come along because I think that there's something that's very clearly hinted at in this episode. But before the tribe, on the scene, what were they trying to do? And I think they wanted them to be like New York gangs. You know, yeah. Well, they were trying... I think they just came across a subpar Klingons, didn't they? ultimately. And especially because of their look. Yeah, the look. I don't know why what they were thinking. I mean, there's a fairly limited range of things of what, you know they can achieve with the makeup and whatever, but they just look like clons, like just far. You want to go for that sort of gang, gang thing. It's got to be a bit vicious, doesn't it? And a bit nasty. cool. So originally the plan was to cast young people as the Kazon because if you think about it, in some, you know, that that when people are younger, that's when they're, you know, doing violence and being difficult and all of that sort of thing. Like and having young people and making them somewhat vulnerable and stuff like that, that that might have been they can break out of their usual sort of casting, can they? So they bring in the fellow who plays marsh colour. And don't worry, it's great. But he's a bit camp, isn't he? And a bit theatrical. And that's why we love him. Yeah, exactly. He's not a gang lead, is he? No. And then when they do bring in a kid, it's Aaron Eisenberg. And again, he's good. Yeah, but that's also an episode about being a kid, you know, like if they had all been younger. If they'd been like sort of child soldiers or something like that. Yeah. But there's still something racialized about the conception. So Romulans and Klingons are, that's a Cold War thing, isn't it? Like in the 60s. We had the Klingons in Star Trek, the Next Generation. We had the Romulans, and that was a Cold War, kind of type of politics. And then the Cardassians and the Majorans come along and it's a little bit messier and a little bit more regional, and a little bit more like, you know, how political issues play out on the world stage now that it's not just 2 giant power blocks. It's, you know, conflicts that are much more local. Now, here, um, if you're going to do gangs, like criminal gangs there's something uncomfortably racialized about that. I think, isn't it? Or is it just me? Do I not know enough about? Star Trek is above that, though. No, I think inadvertently they would do that. But I think that they end up, what they end up doing here, by introducing the trade, is making it South Africa. Yeah, and it's kind of explicit as well, isn't it? Oh, why? Well, and that's it. And so even the white actors who play. So we're going to have a black guy playing a Kazon who is communicating with Jonas. Oh, look who's here. But even the white guy. Yeah, yeah. So even Anthony DeLongus here who plays colour. is wide, but he's you know, made uh, sort of copper coloured. Do you know what this reminds me of, right? Bodger never really does it? Because I don't have interest in villains. And except here. You remember those scenes between like Wayun and Damar, where one of them's talking on the screen and the other one's looking a bit shifty or sort of giving in the eye. I love this stuff. I love it. And we have a scene with the 2 of them. Ordinarily, you would have to have one of the Voyager regulars, but it's enough to have colour or Cesca. That Michael Pillar thing of giving us scenes from the villas points of view. which makes it so much more interesting. So here's the dumb thing. So we 1st we 1st met colour a year ago. They've been travelling back to the alpha, the alpha quadrant for a year. Yeah, it's baffling, isn't it? Well, how have they not, we can meet in 20 hours? Have they been going around in circles? No, no. You have got to forget about that because the 2nd you put that thought in your head. Well, they've been travelling in that direction. Have they not left Kazon space yet? Like how slow are they going? Well, you see, I just thought, okay, so Kazon space is very big you know, like whatever it stretches light use and light use, but it's not just Kazon space, it's these individuals. We keep meeting them around the season. You want Harry Kim to just have throw away a line, okay? We're not getting very far, are we? That's right. So this Tersa, this guy is Tersa, and he is, oh, look, thank God Scotty's not here because he gets stabby in situations like this. I fucking love the beginning of this scene, right? Where they're trying to make it a bit exotic, and I bet, like, they so rarely do this on Voyager, where we go somewhere that just sort of feels like a bar with a sexy woman and a bizarre hat, which plays a musical instrument in the ceiling. So I think that if this was Discovery, there would be a boy there as well, and it would be much better for it. It is kind of a bit... It never feels lived in. And so I like it when we go to a location that actually feels like somewhere that's lived in. Also, this is a puzzle where he has to turn a dodeckahedron into an icosahedron or vice versa, and clearly no one who, uh, either no one who wrote the script or no one who made that thing, a thing knew what either of those 2 things. I mean, I know why, though, Dekhedron is only because I've watched Doctor Who Meglos, but yeah, yeah, yeah. So icosahedron's got 20 sides and they're all triangles, but it's another solid. I don't know what they're doing This is my favourite side of Neelix as well. I do like it when it's quite sweet on the ship. But when he's got a bit of outsider knowledge, you know, and they lean on that in the 1st 3 years, they get to a fair trade where he's finally, they've gone to the point, that's as far as he's gone. So he's got no knowledge from that point on and there's a whole episode about how he suddenly feel. And he makes a lot of dodgy moves to find out maps for what's going on ahead, which is really interesting as well. But it's leading into that, though. I think the original conception of Neelix wasn't just some comedy buffoon morale officer. was supposed to be this sort of dodgy dealer, wasn't it? God, that dance is so bored. I think maybe she thought the camera weren't on her anymore. Oh, here we go. Marshcolor again. Wonderful. I mean, what is that on his head? Oh, it's awful. It's sort of a bit gross, actually. Like it's all sort of... Is it supposed to be a week or a load of rocks? So, yeah, I don't know. It looks like sort of the hair's matted or something or their bones growing it or something. I don't know. Look, we've run out of rocks to put in the consoles. Can we just borrow something from your head? Oh, Jesus Christ. Can we just talk about the way Kurt dies because, you know, in the opening scene, he dies because his console blows up in his face? It's like no one's heard of insulation. Like, it's the most dangerous thing on the ship. It's most of charges. That's right. It's so lame. It's like a cheap way of injuring people. Do you know what? right? Can I tell you? There's somebody on memory alpha that is going through all of Voyager and counting the crew compliment and then taking it down a notch, just like Battlestar Galactica every time somebody dies. So he dies. But by the time we get to endgame, I think there's only about 3 people left because they've murdered so many people. Well, I think we said at the time in endgame, there was this sort of terrible thing how 24 people died in the original timeline before we got home in 20 years or whatever. And it's just like, but more than that, have died in the 7 years of Voyager. Like, it sounds like your track rate actually got rather better. Oh, your comment on that. I was like, get over it, Jane. People die. You haven't got to go back in time. Did you hear what Jacobo sent there? I found the idea of an alliance with you, distasteful colour. Get out of my sight. I also think it's me a little bit that we have the 1st female, we have the 1st female captain, and so the villains have to be sexist. Do you know what I mean? And that's when, and in fact, all of this, like the relationship between Cesca and colour is completely different behind closed doors, where she's very, very much in charge and utterly contemptuous of him, and he's rude and dismissive, isn't he? It's wonderful. I love how she partners to his ego whilst manipulating him to do exactly what she was. because he's a big, dumb, like, moron. Marva hatchet. doesn't she? Oh, here we are. Let's have a moment for stock cave set number 62. So number one. Yeah, there it is. And we've introduced. we're introducing Mabis. Now, he will... He will be back in, I think it might be, um, Travis's only Enterprise episode, Fortunate Son. He comes back as Captain Keen, unfortunate son. Yeah, and he missed that by one episode, you know, recently. Yeah, yeah. And he's Al Car in Man of the People. No. Oh my God. I see it. I see it. He is, isn't he? No, our car. Don't leave me. Do you remember the bit? Oh, aren't we talking about that episode? Troy goes into the transporter room with a knife. A knife. I won't let you leave me, Alcar. Then she attacked the car. Oh, alcohol. Oh, you just brought yourself another notch a lot. isn't that awesome? So great. He must have had so much fun with Marina. He's like, no sign me up. I want to do stuff again. I want to do this So, so what's happening here, right? So when we see the Kazon, they wear, you know, beads and stuff and they're tribes and and they're dark skinned and all of that. And then we get these white people here and they, you know, say we have a terrible colonial history and we were very cruel and all of that sort of thing. Yeah, so they do make, yeah, I'm glad they make that reference. you know, so it doesn't come completely out of left field at the end. They do say the trade were the greatest villains of the quadrant or something. at one point. Yeah, no, no, in fact, I think that that's what colour says. Colour says, so you're not aligning with us. You are allying with the greatest villains in the quadrant. And that's... It's the trade with the English now then. Well, I think it's I mean, this is clearly South Africa, isn't it? Like they keep, uh, you know, there's homelands, that the, um, that they live in there out of sight of the trade, so they don't have to see the level of poverty and and misery that they live in, so that they're exploited and oppressed by the trade. They just find it so distasteful that, you know, because they seem a little bit cultured, that Jane wears immediately like, yeah, we can have alliance with these people. Not those wretched gangs. No, the white people. We're going the white people. I didn't want to say it. No, but that's clearly what's happening, isn't it? And no one notices it. So it's it's icky because her actual reason for not wanting alliances doesn't wash because there's no Starfleet rule about that. That makes no sense at all. They're making alliances all the time. in the Alpha Quadrant. what are we talking about? That's one of the things that we do. It's a federation. Do you know what I mean? Like a federation is a group of people who have joined together in the alliance. Federation in the Delta Quadrant, you know? A fleet of ships could have come through in and game. I brought all these fabulous races to join the federation, you know? So I think that there's a problem. We've said it before, that 90s trek and the further on it goes, the less happier it is about Star Trek, you know, the federation ideals and that sort of, you know, socialist utopia thing. We really challenge it in latter DS 9, don't we? And I think the whole thing of the Dominion is sort of a dark version of that, isn't it? Yeah. But I also think too, that what Deep Space 9 is doing is saying all right, let's face it, the Federation is basically America. Now, let's puncture its pretensions to be a society based on equality and stuff like that. Even more critical than that. when you get through episodes like Valiant and things like that. That is making fun of where they show how they are brainwashed into doing extreme acts that's going to get them all killed. Yes, but that's kind of an interesting explanation, exploration. This just feels like digging her heels in to create some drama. It's what Romor said about Star Trek Voyage when it came on. I don't understand why these characters are behaving this way. And they're like, well, we need a bit of attention for that episode, you know. Look at this guy. Like, he's never watched a film before. So he doesn't realise that that's a hand grenade. So he kicks it experimentally. It explodes and he falls over completely, otherwise visibly unharmed, though. I just don't like the way the case on odds. Oh, portrayed as being so stupid and the trade is being so small. Yeah, yeah. It's a, it's a bit uncomfortable. But do you know what? You know what? We've made quite a few criticisms about all of this. I do think it's great that these things are being thrown in the air and talked about. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I just think there's a problem with what the episode's about. You know, the opening speech that she has about not making alliances and that smug closing speech, which is just so on the nose and, you know, kind of objectionable. And it's her. I was right all along, by the way, even though I'm the one who decided to have an alliance with the racist white people. You just want her to leave the room before the closing credits and they all just look at each other going, what? Are you serious right now? Oh, so they're trying to do. we watched Scorpion and we had all of those ships on the screen and Harry Kit jumped from 3 to 15 or something like that. we could barely perceive it. They're trying it there with a Kazon. I'm not sure the ships are as intimidating. I have to say that I quite like the ships, though, and there is something about this era of Star Trek. You know, we talked the other day about how stunningly beautiful the Romulan birds of prey are. And the Dominion ships we liked as well, didn't we? Yeah, yeah. bugs. And I think, you know, the Kazon ones work for the Kazon, I think you know, they're sandy coloured, like the desert where we 1st see the Kazon in, you know, they've got a beak, they look predatory like a vulture or something like that. I think they're okay. They look a bit shit straight on. Do you see what he said there? I wasn't even aware of the caison growing up. They lived in restricted areas. Yeah, yeah. You see, it's like homelands, isn't it? I didn't know they lived in poverty and film. Yeah. The police, even the thing, even the thing that persecuted by the trade police, even acknowledging that the police are racist, you know, so they wouldn't get loose and kill us. So he's having lots of sort of colonialist guilt or pretending to because, of course, he is going to take the opportunity because it's his idea, isn't it? Janeway shouldn't have heard some of this, you know, and their history and just said, no, oh, we're not going to do this, you know, with you. Well, except that she has that in her history as well. You're our people. You're all kind of people. that's right joined my new Federation. We'll be the supremest song. We'll go around and civilise all the planets just like Picard did in Syria's model TNG. Oh dear. Oh, so the idea is now is they've all been scattered because the Kazon are a force to be reckoned with. Yeah, because the case kind of risen up, overthrown them and now persecuting them. I do really like them giving the case on a sympathetic backstory though. after sort of gina training as the villains. I think that's a good move Yeah, it makes them more... I think they even must have said in that writer's room. The case on was so boring. We haven't done nothing with them. Well, yeah, and pillars there going, you know what? We're gonna make them the victims. That'll be interesting. Yeah, I think that's, I think that is really interesting and it does say something, you know, like I think it's, it's a thing that's worth doing as well. You know, these people are, you know, violent and aggressive and stuff. Why is that? Well, they've learned that being violent and aggressive is how you survive because of the oppression that they've undergone and they're, you know, within their rights to harass and. What's the solution here then, Nathan? She had just gone off and just let them get on with her own little squabbles. Yeah, well, I mean, I don't think she needs to solve anything in the quadrant for the show to work. You know, she does just need to get home. So here we go. Gosh, Jonas is wearing a lot of makeup, isn't he? Yeah. you seeing that? seen a couple of scenes back with Hogan. He was doing some serious eye acting with Bilama. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a very intense look. No, he is good. The thing is, is I'm going to say this. These are secondary characters on Voyager, and they are functional. They're okay, you know, but like, I think they are worse, you know than, than the, the least successful secondary characters on DS9. Yeah, but it's such a relief having secondary characters at all, I think. You know, we said... Take anything, any scraps you'll give us. Well, we said that when we were watching Genesis. You know, it was so nice to see Barclay and Alyssa, uh, to, you know, as if they'd been there all along. I loved it when they brought Brad Dorrifin as a serial killer. And he had a couple of... consulting serial killer. Yeah, that was a bit interesting. That was pillar again. He wrote that one. Yeah. Consistent, basic. Yeah, he's the one, him and the doctor, they helped retake the shit. They take the ship back, don't they? Yeah, yeah. And I thought, God, he's going to be a hero now, you know, but you will need to watch out. He might pull out a knife at any moment and she kills him off. She goes, no, we want him gone. Mind you, they weren't going to keep Brad Doroth forever. I mean, he gets what? No, no, that's right. Yeah, exactly. Oh, here we go. Now, look. This might be a luxury. I simply don't have. We're going to have to make an alliance with these wide supremacists. White people. Let's go. That's right. Well, you changed the tune, Janeway? Ah, the tribe, they enjoy a good meal. There's a nice things about the brandy. and so we're going to have an alliance with them. Interesting smelly gangs. That's right I don't think our problem with the case on is that they're, you know, a bunch of bully boys. I don't think she likes colour. No, yeah, no, he's horrible. Oh, look, here we go. little boy, you know. She strokes his hair. They're good people after all, yeah. They have children. You couldn't be evil and have children. That awful Kazon boy we dealt with, it was wielding knives all the time. That's right There was, to be fair, a black woman in the background, who was trade, but I did think that they were very white on the whole, the extras and stuff. I mean, we only have one speaking trade, don't we? This guy? I think as a whole, the Kazon are all black and the tray barrel white. Well, no, but like we said, the Anthony DeLongus is wide, but they paint him orange and the same with Aaron Eisenberg, you know, the sort of tribal look, isn't it? Yeah, it is. It's a tribal look and they belong to tribes that have names, the Nistrom and the Ogla and all of that. Yeah. I do wonder, though, I would have liked to have seen a little bit of this, maybe not with the trade, but like an alliance where there's a few ships going along with Voyager and then taking some stories taken, and I know they would never do it. And it's a shame, you know? But they can do it because then, you know, when they boot them all off DS9, we have 6 episodes where they're away in other locations you know? Yeah, but this is, you know, launching UPN, isn't it? Like this is their big flagship show. It's on a different network from... We've got our own Star Trek, the next generation. Come and watch us. yeah Yeah, well I think that's it. think that's absolutely it. And look at her just... Look at his face. He's pissed, isn't he? We could have got that colour if you'd have behaved yourself. That's it. She's so great. I'm mixing her on boys, you know, you know. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But she's really, really great. When they bring her back, they bring her back for 2 episodes, don't they? There's worst case scenario in series 3 and then they're shattered in series 7 and every time she comes back, you're like, oh, you should have done the whole run, love. you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Imagine Cesca and seven. I mean it would have been amazing. When the Federation Carl, could you risk being the only march who doesn't attend? She's basically like our Weyune for this show, isn't she? A sort of devious politician. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think it's just a great shame. It's a brilliant choice to have those 2 do our 1st big 2 part. Cliffhanger episode. They absolutely earn it and it's a really great episode because you know, they're already stranded and now they're even more stranded. Oh, shit, this is so great. Look at the look on his face. And she's pandering to his ego saying, you know, you're going to take over the entire quadrant and he's almost getting a raging boner. hampering to his ego. Oh, it's glorious. I can't believe people don't like this stuff. This is one of the best... It's really fun. That's that's the stuff. And it's great. I think it is a savvy move. I have, you know, your 1st shit show with a female captain and a great female villain. Female villain. You know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I agree. Yeah. Attackrit. Who are the tackrit? Oh, so this is a thing that happened during that last scene. Neelix was back on the planet Sobras or whatever for some reason and he discovered that there's now a plot to kill everyone at the conference and they decide. And this is so, like, I actually kind of emotional racist decision they make, it's got to be the case on, they think, don't they? going to be one of the last. Well, they just assume. Well, I mean, just, you know, there's a bunch of there's one trade and 9 K's on it. Never occurs to them that it'll be the trade because yes, you're right, they're white people. But there's also like just less of them, I think. But I love the moment at the conference where, um, where Mabis goes, uh, actually, should we just step out for a quick thing, we need to talk about something. Come on, let's go, quick. Oh, come on. isn't it? Yeah. Captain, I need to talk to you now. But we get a shot of Tuvok realising what's going on before he gets too kind of blatant about it, which I thought was... done would have said, you know what? If they're going to try and do an assassination attempt here. Let's have it on Voyager. Let's invite everybody here instead. I love this guy. This guy just had a whole speech about deciding to make the table triangular. May I say the person on backcloth juicy is doing a fine job of those mountains out the window. I actually think that looks really good, does it? Yeah. When the the bolt comes through the window later. There's a pane of glass that shatters. Yeah, yeah. Really? I like the special effect outside. But I think this is a tiny, tiny room. And I mentioned now, I mentioned it off my, but I want to mention it. I might now. Yeah, for some reason on Netflix and on Prime Video. They've taken it off now. They dubbed on, every time one of these margins turns up in this tiny room, this enormous applause, like there's a stadium full of people there, and, you know, like a da, da, da, da, da, fanfare every time someone walks in. large menace. These guys are so... Yeah, yeah, yeah. Surat, there's Surat. They were like, right, we need a list of space names. Come on. Yep, Lauren here. Of the Oglamar. That's Valek. Wow, he's coming in his pyjamas. Oh, the mystery. Yeah, yeah. And colour gets a friend. He's a speaking part. It's something that you have done, you know, perversely to me for watching these 90s episodes now. It's all I was thinking was if somebody who wasn't a Star Trek fan put this on and saw all these absurd looking people skid around the table talking to. How is this? There is so much latex in this scene. There he is. I have so many. I mean, who was on week duty here? So I think this is, I think this is Charles's own hair, as Mabis he's gone gray in the last sort of 3 or 4 years. Did you see how Carlos sat down there looking at everybody like he was already like the queen of England, you know? I love him. he's great. No, I think I think that he thinks he's the star of the show. He's like the Ducat of this show, isn't he? I guess he is. It's not quite as good. Bargain basement, you can't. Because I feel like it was a pound store. Genuinely dangerous. Pound shop through car. It's nice to have somebody who's a little sly boots, you know, with a massive ego. Oh yeah, here we go. No, he's off to get his drink. No, I'm just getting a drink. I'm pouring some green liquid. I feel as if there could have been some serious tension in this scene, but it's just all so obvious. Yeah. I love as well. It's just where he goes, be miles on the tray bout now and just leaves all the case on... Leaves them all there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's crazy, isn't it? Why is that? Well, I would have left the train guy there. Why don't you just... I mean, you're going on about not shifting the balance of power. You've left them all there to be killed. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, she told them to get down. I mean, you know, they were sad. I don't think we laugh as much ever, you know, when we watch 90s trek. No. It's also absurd. There's not enough soap in this stuff, have you noticed? No. You know, it's all a lot of plot. Well, I think that the soap comes from the scenes with seska and colour. Yeah. Yeah. Later on when she's got the baby on the bridge. That's brilliant Here's your son, Chakotay. And so she's trying to make it broader too, isn't she? But I really, really like, like, he's right. Colour is right here. We can't trust this proposal, a woman and a tribe. I mean, he's being sexist because, uh, but he's right. This sign here, you're allying yourself to the greatest villains. This squadrant has ever known. That's good. That's a good line. But are we supposed to be on his side here? But no, I think we are. I think absolutely he's right. So the point of this episode is to make Janeway a massive hypocrite. Yeah, yeah. And the moment that he finishes that line, Maber says, let's go get up and leave the room for some reason. No, so many Voyager episodes do not stick the landing in the climax. But this is a great moment when the ship comes down. It's really good and I love the special effect. through the window. Yeah, so... It feels like it's got a bit of a bit of scale to it, doesn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, and I think they almost sell this shitty interior with that's a big crap. There's no actual people in that shot because there's lots of breaking glass and they don't want to injure the actors, I guess. Oh, I like the fact that when the torpedoes hit the ship, it sort of bounces, you know? It's really good, isn't it? I think it's having ships in, like, because there's real elements in that. That's not just computer generated. They've shot. They've taken a camera outdoors, I think, and they've shot the sky and the mountains in the background. And then they've put the, you know, the ship and the building which looks good. Like the building's an interesting design. I didn't like. Jaywig is so mad with him here. Get off my ship, though. She did to colour before. But like, he keeps basically saying, look, I told you who we were you know, like, on the terrible things that we did. And guess what? We kept doing them, you silly, silly person. But I think it would have been better. I agree. I think the fact that she, like I just kept going, he needs to be more seriously punished than this. And, you know, maybe that's just me being Captain Picard wanting the Breckins to kind of lose their drug market or whatever. Um, but it would have been more fun if she had rescued all of the all of the Kazon and just left the tray behind. Oh, wow. I think that would have been a more interesting development. We just had 2 scenes back to back. One, where one person on one side of this argument called her a hypocrite and one on the other side of the argument called her naive. So it's the point of this episode to undermine Jane Wade's character. think so. And now we get this shitty speech grafted on. And so I think that this story is interesting, but I don't think it is about what they desperately wanted to be about. And so all of this grandstanding at the end and at the beginning is undermined by the actual thing, which is she made an alliance with some white people because she thought they were sort of reasonably similar to her and she made a bad call. She allied with the wrong people. Rather than her doubling down here and saying, you know, the values of the federation are the best principles and allies we can have, what she should be saying is, I've really made a mistake. Yeah, I got this wrong. This appears to be a region of space that doesn't have many rules and stuff. So she's being sort of xenophobic as well. It's kind of like we're not making alliances with people because foreigners can't be trusted. Is that what we're taking away from this as well? But that is the, I mean, there is a thread of that running through Voyager, which, you know, once we move it out of the alpha quadrant and we're taking delegates to Pacifica and we're having you know, like famous scientists on board and we're doing diplomatic missions and stuff like that, and now we're just having space adventures instead, then Voyager is going to be much more about how aliens are our enemies because that's how the show's set up. Whereas Star Trek, the Next Generation is much more about building coalitions and being part of a bigger group and stuff like that. So, so, like that is a thread. I think there is a sort of thread of kind of conservatism and racism that runs through Voyager a bit, I think. I guess a little bit troubling, isn't it? And then I think that is, um, enhanced when we skip into enterprise. Yeah. in a very troubling way that put a lot of people off from watching it. I've got a quote from Jerry Taylor here about that last scene. If you'd care to hear it. And she goes, I like the dilemma that Janeway was put in. I thought that was interesting. I regret the final speech I put in her mouth because it comes across as exactly that. One of those preachy Picard like moments where she has to lecture people about the importance of something, but it did seem like a good idea at the time. Yeah, it just comes across as defensive and petulant and her refusing to learn the real lesson and it is just, uh, it's not because of the character. It's a problem with the writing, isn't it? And they can do that as well because there are episodes where Janeway sort of muses. especially the decision to keep them in the Delta Quadrant. So it's not like they're above Janeway questioning herself and the poor, poor judgements that she makes. I felt, I wonder if it's just because we've only got a single scene and it's like, well, we've got to wrap this up and, you know we don't want to deal with the case on for another half series. So let's just let's just say, right. Federation rules great. And then moving to threshold. Oh, God, which has now started. Technically, we are doing a bit of fresh off now, Star Trek Project, because I can't wait till we get to that one. It's so unpleasant to watch, isn't it? It's just like it's not just bad in all sorts of sort of bad ways but it's actively just unpleasant to watch. You and I, we've done latter Voyager episodes where they were good standalone episodes, like, um, the Hirogen 2-parter, you know Scorpion, where there were some, there were interesting things going on, but they were sort of standalones. This is. It's flawed, but I think it's far more interesting that they're doing something with the quadrant with the balance of power with the characters they've established, bringing in secondary characters that are going to run through the rest of the season in interesting ways. You know, somebody, again on Voyager, who's working against them. It's an interesting time for the show. I just wish they hadn't abandoned it completely. I think they would have got better at doing it, the sort of the further they went along. Yeah, I think we said that about state of flux. It seemed to be like just an early premise. It seemed very voyagery. And that was nice. Like I liked that version of the show, the one that culminates, I guess, in basics, is fun. And in a way, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense as we've seen but there is an attempt to just do more than Star Trek the Next Generation with a different group of people in a different set of sets, I think. All right, it's the end of the episode and it is time for us to work out what we're going to do next and it's Joe's turn. So Joe, how are we choosing this week? Wow, I'm going to be utterly predictable. We're not leaving 90s trek and I'm not going to do all of them. No, I just love it. I want to do another DS9. so sorry. Okay, cool. Yeah, I don't think we've been there for a sort of 5 or 6 now. We get a couple of Kurtzman's. We've done a Voyager, our next gen, and an original series since the last time we did this. I think. No, no, let's do that. I think that'll be really fun. absolutely. Okay. Let me just get rid of all the others. Okay. So, Bosch. Ooh, why? So it's in the middle of a big arc. Oh, okay. Your random Star Trek D Space 9 episode is Rocks and Shoals. season 6. Ooh, episode two. Yeah, I remember that. Now, we aren't doing all 6 of those in one episode. But that does mean that that's a way in to kind of talk about that six-part run. And I remember rocks and shoals. I think it's a good episode. It is a really good episode, but I'll never do the 1st one, so I'm not sorry. Okay. Your random Star Trek Deep Space 9 episode is season five, episode five. Oh, God. The assignment. Keiko O'Brien goes bad. It's the 1st one with the power race. He plays it brilliantly. But it is how... So this, we talked about it because in PowerPlay, Miles is um Miles is threatening Molly and Keiko in 10 forward, and then in the assignment, She's threatening Molly, isn't she? And brushing her hair. Yes, that hurts. I do like that. don't know if I want to do that. Oh, so can. But it's not very typical, but it is pretty great. You know, I'm going to press it again. I'm sorry. Do you know what? I would really love to wax lyrical about Rosalind Chow as well. We'll get to it. Ooh, I would like to do this one. Oh, okay, good. Okay. But it is season 7 again. Yep, that's all right. Okay, this isn't part of an even bigger arc. Oh. Oh, it's the end, is it? Yeah, part of the last 10. It would be the 1st time we've got into the end as well. Star Trek D Space 9 episode is season seven, episode 20, the changing face of evil. I love that title. It's our biggie as well. There's loads of stuff going on in that. Do you remember? That's the one where the Defiance destroyed. It's the one where wind stabs Sobor. It's the one where Damar turns against the Dominion in that fabulous speech at the end. And it's also the one where Keiko cooks Cisco's peppers. That sounds perfect. I'm sold You had near the peppers. I mean, I would I would love to go into one of these sort of big arcs and this is sort of smack bang in the middle as well. There's sort of 3 episodes before this. where all the plots sort of rumble, and then this is the episode where... This is where they come to a hit. All of those plots are sort of, yeah, brought to a big sort of twist. And then that leads us into the 2nd half of the arc. Right, brilliant. All right, that sounds perfect. There'll be a lot to say. Maybe a lot to say. Excellent. You've been listening to entitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford and Nathan Bottomley. Well, online at untitled Star Trek project.com, where you can find links to our Twitter, mastered on Facebook and YouTube channel. Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceran, and the theme was composed by Cameron Lamb. This episode was recorded on the 4th of July 2023 and released on the 7th of July. We'll see you next time for Star Trek Deep Space 9, the changing face of evil. Well, you have the last word at once. Oh, you sure? Oh, God, let me turn this last one. Next way. Oh, my God. Coffs his tongue up and stuff. It's so yucky. Fucking hell. Who wants to watch that? And it's the worst, Robert, going on about, like, with, like, all the later characters in the world. We haven't done like a full on Paris episodes. There's plenty of them. That thing where he's moaning about, whether his father loves him as well, like that's the other sort of emotional arc of that episode, it's just like so grotesque. Oh, bad. What were you thinking? No, but it's bad. Like, I acknowledge that people think Genesis is bad and they're sort of wrong, but they're not crazy, but this is really, like threshold is properly bad in that just, ugh. It's like coarse oblivion. It's just like, fuck. Why do I want to watch that? Yeah, and demon. Yeah, yeah. He's in actually, uh, Tom Solinski's in sort of mid-season 5 now. I think it's Goodwill, 7 of line coming in as depleted because there are some absolute clangors. I mean, I think that season 5 is generally quite strong, but yeah the more he's going through it, he's going, yeah, was he just doing nothing human? Just tedious. But then he didn't, he said counterpoint was nothing special. I think that's right. No, I think it's good. It's probably well written. Yeah, good performance. All right. Okay, I'll do the intro. The guy who plays Jonas is called Raphael's barge. Great. I have a work he's done. Should have kept him around. How do you say it? Dahmer and Greg. Will and Grace charmed. He's been in everything. 24. Is that guy? He isn't that guy. He's good. He's in Quantum Leap. Um, Seaquest DSV. Murder she wrote. There you go. Yeah, but they've all been in that. Kate Mulgar has done free of those. All right, let's go. All right, it's the end of the episode.