The Wounded

Hey, Joe. Hi. So, we're in series 4 of Star Trek, The Next Generation, and this is, for me, I think, one of my favourite eras of the show, because this is really what started me on Star Trek years ago. I saw series one, you know, when it was released on VHS for the home video market. But it was when series 4 hit, we started to see episodes from series 4 and I was absolutely sold. And I'm like looking down the list here. Last week was Data's Day, which, yeah, and that makes sense of the early scene with O'Brien and Keiko in this episode. Day, you know, Nathan is Dr. Bev's finest hour when she has to see where she teaches him how to dance, you know? Can I just say it? This episode that we're going to be talking about very quickly. Dr. Bev does not feature in it at all. It's the only episode that she's not in outside of obviously season two, and may I say it is all the better for our absence. I didn't miss her, to be honest. But I will be I will be talking about Deanna being criminally underused in this. But I'm just looking down the list. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She gets one really good moment, which I'll point out. But things like devil's due, which is like terribly silly, but really, really great. Clues was the 1st episode of series 4 that I ever saw and I was astonished. Well, it's business as usual, but it's just well done, you know? You shouldn't go back to that one though. I've watched that one Fairly recently. It's really static, though, on my gypsosis. So they all this. But I mean, things like reunion and legacy. Remember me is one of my absolute favourites. I think it's stunning. amazing. Reunion, the K-Los death is astonishing. That's proper sort of pre-deep space nine, isn't it? That's really where we decide to go with Deep Space Night. But, you know, family, God, the drumhead with jeans. Family is amazing. The drum hat is astonishingly good. I tell you what. Actually, in all these episodes that you're mentioning, it's the character work that's immediately standing out to me, it's the pillar effect, you know? Yeah, but I also think that they do a better job of doing our science fiction thing every episode that works. I think the characters are starting to work together. Yeah, you remember him, remember me when you... Yeah, like it's... Dr. Beverly. Well, Dr. Beverly, it's only you and me in the entire universe. You know that's... It's just normal. It's really good. I haven't even mentioned 1st contact, which again is just astonishingly great. That's amazing. Yeah, like Strange New Worlds, episode one draws on it. Like, it's absolutely classic. Isn't Redemption the finale as well. And I think the 1st half of redemption is very good. It's as Shakespearean as the next generation ever gets. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, well, apart from Menage, Troy. Even that's pretty fun. No, it's terrible. But like you and I, you and I have had some pretty mixed things to say about the TNG episodes that we've watched and actually we've probably aired towards being quite critical, but 3 to 6, those seasons, the bat and average is pretty damn high, isn't it? And this is where sort of 90s trek really came to life and this is what people remember as like the golden era of 90s trek. Exactly right. If we hadn't had these seasons. These excellent seasons 3 to 6. We just wouldn't have had Deep Soce 9 or Voyager or Enterprise probably, but... No Enterprise? Oh, my God, honestly. hard to imagine. Let's not think about a universe where that exists. But you've been doing even more research than usual, I think, about this episode. Is that right? I have. Well, I went into a charity shop the other day. I was pulled in by my other up and I thought, well, I'm not going to find anything good in there. And lo and behold, I came across, essentially, what is like a horror book for me. It's Star Trek science logs by Andre Bormanis. I was like, what is this? They've written a book about the technobabble of Star Trek. So I opened it up and actually, so what it is, is, um, it's lots of episodes across 90s trek where they put in like the captain's lock to set the scene of whatever the episode or the science premise is. And then it's essentially knuckling down the ridiculous technobabble, which I normally nod my way through and assume, you know, they know what they're talking about. to a five-year-old's level, which is perfect for me when it comes to size. I've got a double D for science. So, you know, this is sort of level on that. And the episode today that we're talking about is the wounded and I was delighted to see there was an entire page devoted to the wounded. Although I don't remember any science in this at all. It's actually about the Cardassians. Oh okay. And I would like to regale you now with a small passage to show you just how thoughtful and insightful this text actually is. Are you ready? I'm ready. Let's say, this is amazing. Cardassians are part of a long line of Star Trek villains. They are loosely modelled on Nazi armies of World War II, ruthless and militaristic, bent on conquering the entire galaxy, and then it goes on to like 2 paragraphs explaining what they look like. They are probably cold-blooded in addition to their generally reptilian appearance. We've made several references to their inability to tolerate cold temperatures, blah, blah, blah. Don't tell you nothing in it. This book is absolute nonsense. I'm telling you. But there is a fascinating excerpts on Cubics and, you know Janeway turning into a reptilian, in threshold, explains the science of masks and how their DNA is reversed. I mean this is a treasure, this book. So as we go through this thing, Nathan. I shall be regaling you with Andre Bormanis's unique take. He has some pedigree because he was the science consultant on season 7 of the next generation and wrote, are you ready for this? He wrote such gems as riddles and demon and human era from Voyager all absolute clangors, but even more importantly, was responsible for about half the output of series one and 2 events prize. Oh my goodness. Well, that is a pedigree. Yeah, that's very impressive. And I think it's just worth mentioning that book because I can tell you, there is an entire library out there, our books discussing the length and breadth of Star Trek way beyond memory alpha, you know. It's a Klingon version of Hamlet out there. I am. I once had the Klingon dictionary and it came with a tape of Klingon phrases with with Michael Dawn, you know, introducing it and stuff and then someone broke into my car and stole it. So I hope that they enjoyed the book and the tape. And my stereo, that one. He's going to have some valuable stuff in here. Yeah, yeah. Coupla. That person now can read Klingon, and I'm sure their life is more richer for it. I'm sure it is. Nathan, I got a feeling you're not as keen on the wounded as I am. I actually think it is really good, and I can see why we liked it but watching it made some of its flaws obvious. I think I think there is a problem with the script that I'm trying to pin down, but and we'll see if I get there while we're watching it now. But I do think that this is one of those episodes that relies enormously heavily on a guest star. Um, you know, like the drumhead will later in the in the season. And I think this guest star is not very good. And I think he needed to be better because he's the centrepiece of the story. And in a way, the episode is structured around him. And, of course, around similar kinds of things that have happened to O'Brien as well. And because he never really sells it. Like, he just comes across as a sort of asshole, really. And not as one of the wounded, which is what the title promises. And so I think that he wrecks it a bit. The script offers him quite a lot. Yeah, yeah. Do you remember the DS92 parts of the marquee, the 1st introduced the marquee? Yeah, really kind of rich script and beautifully acted by everybody except Cal Hudson, who is Cisco's best friend and the head of the market and he's Bernie Casey and he's super wooden. And it's a real blemish on this fantas- and I didn't think he was terrible, but compared to the other acting that was going on there which is blown out of the water. And you know what? It's a fucking relief to finally watch an episode with Colt Meaney not being possessed, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Actually, seeing him doing some acting. This is kind of his 1st big role. And so he had day to day the previous week, which is him getting married to Keiko. And so I'm not sure this episode opens. Does it open with them having breakfast, but there's a scene with them having breakfast early on. And he is very good and you can see them trying him out. Like it's, if he was available, you know, spinning him off and giving him a regular position on Deep Space 9 was the right thing to do. Because like he'd done movies and stuff. He's a proper actor. But you know, you know, in that 1st scene, Okay, well, which obviously we'll get to in a minute. But in that 1st scene, I thought, uh, where they're having dinner and he talks about his family and making food and all of this. And I thought to myself, we're learning more about O'Brien in this single scene than I know about half the TNG crew in 70s. So this bloody show. So they clearly saw an actor that was giving a lot to very little and decided to just give him more and more. And then he transferred off onto a show where they could absolutely flourish that character and give him a lot of debt. That's right. It's actually strange how weird it is to have a whole scene on Star Trek the Next Generation, which is not like guest aliens or whatever, and doesn't have anyone whose name is in the opening credits in it. And, you know, it's almost like that was kind of the way the show worked. There always had to be one of our regulars involved in what was going on at all times. And so like making him a big deal. And he'd been in it since Encounter at FarPoint. You know, he didn't have a name or whatever back then, but, you know, he has been in it off and on. And so it is nice to see him, you know, them developing some of the other characters. And, um, just briefly before we go in as well. I said to you, off mic that, a lot of what I liked about this episode was off screen. And that's not to kind of, at any rate, what is on screen. But this is setting up a whole empire that then DS9 takes hold of and it's a massive game changer for like the Alpha Quadrant, the Cardassians. This isn't like your one shot. This isn't the Beaumar of Voyager. They saw the potential here and they absolutely run with it, don't they? Like in the last episode of DS9, half that episode is set on Cardassia Prime. Like that planet's a big player come sort of the end of 90s straight. And so I think whilst it's not at its best here, sort of setting up this Machiavellian Empire, that's up to no good in the quadrant and it's building forces and, you know, always threatening war to the Federation. It's doing some good stuff here. I'm going to talk a little bit at some point about how this is a different way of conceiving in alien enemy, so the Klingons in Star Trek were very definitely, you know, our adversaries in a cold war, and the Cardassians end up being something a little bit more up to date than that. And I think, you know, there's some grounds for thinking of them as the Nazis and, uh, you know, that sort of cruelty and racism and things. But there is also something, something about occupying being foreign occupiers of someone else's territory, which seems very real and relevant and becomes the basis of Deep Space 9, but is developed in Star Trek, the Next Generation before, um, before the spinoff starts. And I think that's a much, much more interesting conception. Because even when the Romulans come along, they're basically the Russians, aren't they? And so having them. They're also off screen, aren't they? They're always doing something that we don't really see. Yeah. So I think this is really interesting. I mean, they help themselves to a recent war, which we have never heard of before, but like, who cares, whatever, and it turns out to be one of the best things that Star Trek the Next Generation does for the, for that, the sort of universe that Star Trek takes place, I think. And the other thing, this episode does. I'm not sure if it's his very 1st episode. I think it is. It introduces Mark Alamo to the Star Trek universe. I know he plays a bro again in TNG, and he plays other Kardassians I think, in TNG as well. But the Cardassians could be very black and white, like you say they could be the Nazis of the Star Trek universe, but Elmo is so fucking charming. And, you know, he's horrible and he does terrible things and all of that. But why is he watchable? Like, you want him to be on screen all the time. I think he's really, really particularly good in this. Um, So apparently, I'm just checking here. He's done 4 Star Trek, the Next Generations and he actually, he's in the neutral zone. He's the main Romulan, I think, who appears on the screen in the neutral zone. You can't mistake his voice, Nathan, honestly. And he's one of the dog, weird ass dog aliens in Lonely Among Us. Remember it's the fish aliens and the dog aliens. Yeah. Yeah, the Soleil or whatever they are. That's right. I love it. So he's one of them. So that's pretty awesome. But, hey, do you know who he is? I recognise he's the one who goes up to Tashiara and goes, It was a very tasty meal, Lieutenant. Because I've been given live food on the enterprise, live animals. So great. Well, speaking of which, we're about to hear Chief O'Brien talking about eating real meat to the cake. Should we should we get going? We probably should, yeah. Okay, so here we go. Five, four, three, two, one and we're off. Okay, exterior enterprise. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think I'm watching the version with the updated HD special effects. So it looks more like a computer generated thing than a normal model. I don't think there's many special effects in this episode. There's a lot of close-ups, but not many special effects. Is there something off about Patrick Stewart's voice in this episode? I don't know. I think he's actually, I think he's really good in this episode although this scene is pretty shitty, and it is that sort of scene you know, where Picard talks. So we're running away and Dan is going, oh, that's hard to believe. And you just kind of think, we've seen them together on Nepenthe and that was a really properly good relationship and this is as crap is like it's them sucking up to their boss. Their boss tells them a really boring story. No, for embarrassing. There are some high grade sucking up to the boss in this from O'Brien, right? Someone even system you got. You got a silver tongue, O'Brien. Yuck. His punk is up Cisco's arse all the time, honestly, for out that run. Not a bad place to be, you know. Well, okay. So moving along very quickly. We're getting some valuable background here about, oh, no, here we go. Thank God. Here's Keiko and... I'm sorry. I love all cuisines, but that looks ghoulish what's on that plate. Kelp buds, plankton leaf. So, I, hmm, so when I came home for dinner tonight, there were a lot of very small crabs that had been cooked in a dish and that was dinner and I was feeling a bit like Miles O'Brien does now like, can't we have some beef or lamb or something that I don't have to perform a series of autopsies on in order to get small amounts of meat out of them. So I really understand how this works. Astonishingly delicious Asian food. What she's put in front of him there does not look delicious to me. Japanese food, like with seaweed and stuff like that, I really quite like. I'm sort of totally on board with that. So I think that... Kiko though. He wants to shove a load of, you know, meat loaf and mashed potatoes down his throat. I love her reaction to that where she goes, actually, that's kind of heavy. I think that works really well. That's really great. And reminding us too that we don't kill animals for food in the 24th century anymore, which I think is pretty great. Oh, bar, okay, can I say it? Because one of the things that my other I've always says when he's criticising Star Trek, it's like, yeah, he goes, oh, you know, what is this old-fashioned 20th century earth food, right? scenes like that. Well, I started watching this the other night and he's there in the doorway with his fucking eyebrow arched. I was like, it's off, because she's going, she's going. Oh, you actually handled real animals and prepared. I was like, oh, God. You are right. There is, I think there's some very good dialogue in this. There's a couple of lines which I think really hit. But the overall shape of the language in 90s trick is a little bit awkward. Like people don't talk like this. No. No, there's space people. But there is something else going on here too, which is that this tries to differentiate itself from Star Trek, the next Star Trek the original series, by having a level of formality in the language and by also everyone being a little bit karma, right? And so and so it ends up... Which sometimes I quite like. Yeah, yeah. Sometimes when the dialogue is intelligent, that really works and it really stands out from TOS. You know, they're creating a future where everyone is much more into diplomacy and negotiation. People want to work for peace. That's what Picard is doing in this episode. And so it does. That is the best thing about this episode. Him pushing back from a potential war. And they do it a few times in the next generation where, you know like, oh, we need to try and avert a war with whoever it is this week. Oh my god. Can I just say the Cardassians have appeared on the screen now? There were a few revisions in the makeup, you know, before they were regulars. Yeah, so the makeup here is ridiculously over the top and he's got a stupid Beaumont hat. He's around about .46 on the Beaumar scale, I think. Yeah, .46. I'll double that and say 0.82. I think he's the only other alien we've seen so far that's got a coat hanger around his head. Yeah, it is a bit crap. It's sort of like a leather. Fetish cohanger, isn't it? Because they're super evil. So then they, you know, they're very into S&M. maybe that's it. They're not gray as well, which is what we land on their brown. I'm not sure what they're trying to achieve with that thing around its head because it doesn't seem to have any function apart from being purely decorative. Yeah, it is very strange, but I guess it's trying to make him look alien. And he's very static here. This is not the performance he ends up with. You know, Jakart is more animated than him, but this, I think he's really, really properly good in this in a really interesting way. Because Picard is determined to, because Picard knows that, um, you know, Maxwell is posing a threat to Cardassians and is breaking the treaty. He has to bend over backwards to ensure that he is completely honest. Yeah. Like politeness when he really just wants to say I fucking hate you. Patrick Stewart plays out brilliantly as well. Yeah, but I think I think that, you know, like maybe he doesn't like him, but, you know, like, I don't think he's unlikeable. Like, I don't think that... No, but like he doesn't come on board and throw his weight around. He's not a dick. you know, like he's all of the things he says are quite reasonable. I think, you know, his demands are reasonable and that's what's interesting about it. But in order to make the twist at the end work is he's got to play that role in a way where both, you know, are they up to no good or are they genuinely very innocent? And he does that. He plays that ambiguity really well. Because I never know whether to trust him, but I'm always charmed by him. I, like, I'm, I, I think there's a double twist, isn't there? One is that you can't trust him because he does seem completely reasonable and he plays it very calm and he isn't a villain. One is that you can't trust him. And the other twist is, of course, that Picard knew that all along that he was still doing this, even though he knew that Maxwell's claims were true. And I think that's really properly interesting, and it is a determination to uphold peace, even if it comes at some personal cost. More than that, wonderful scene, isn't it? Right in the heart of the episode. And I thought that was one of the best things where Picard has to decide whether to give the location to the Cardassians and even Waters, you know, what the hell are you doing, you know? And at that point, you never, you don't know what really what's going to happen. Is Maxwell going to shoot on them? Are they going to shoot on him? Picard doesn't know the answers to that. But the thought of not giving that information and going to war is it terrifies. So, yeah, so he does it. He needs to look not just like he's, you know, adhering to the terms of the treaty because Maxwell's broken them already. He has to be as conciliatory as possible, and he absolutely has to make sure that Maxwell doesn't kill any Cardassians. And the way that Marcolemo plays it, where, um, you know, when that 600 and 50 Cardassians are killed, I think is almost, I think I think we'll get there because, you know, that's all, uh, him narrating a space invaders game on the screen. Has Admiral Nachea been introduced in this series, yeah, because I don't like this series of sort of non-plus admirals. I think he's in the drum head... I think. What you said earlier about the guest performer in this kind of bombing, it seems. Yeah. Like, it would, could you imagine the drumhead if they didn't have Gene Simmons? Yeah, yeah, yeah. In fact, it's Gene Simmons' slightly weird performance where I love it. it's wonderful She's honestly. She always seems a little bit unhinged and like she's got a snap at any minute, you know? So you're like, 0 God. And then when she finally does, you know, I've taken down better men than you, Picard. so good. It's so good. But like even, I don't think he liked Kyla Marr very much in Silicon Avatar next year, but I think she's pretty good as well. She does what she needs to do Terrible. No, she's not. She's at scenes with Data. I'm never sure he's the Androids, you know, honestly. But I think this bombs it, and I think it kind of slightly wrecks the episode, but there I'm not sure that the episode sells the wounded thing all that well, right? Because of the actor or because of the script? Maybe a bit of both. Here are the Cardassians arriving on board. Do you know, I really liked. I'm not sure what his name is. The Kardassian that tries to reach out to O'Brien. I thought that was a lovely performance, and he's always sort of looking at O'Brien, as if to say, can we find some common ground here? Yeah, yeah. And the scene at the bar, I thought, was more affecting than the scene between O'Brien and Maxwell, where he says to him, you know it's not that I don't like you, is because I don't like who I am because of you. They're admitting this, look at this. Deanna looks across at Miles after the Cardassians go through the transporter room and Miles is absolutely poker face. He's giving nothing away. And she notices something and she looks at him and that doesn't go any further. And in a way, I like that. But in a way, I think not having Deanna around actually means that we don't properly address what's going on. Because the thing that Maxwell and you don't want her around psychoanalysing everyone and spoiling. Do you know what? If the trade-off is just a look from her rather than one of her psychobabble scenes, I'll take the trade. But I liked that a lot because here's the problem. The problem is that both Maxwell and O'Brien are repressing and refusing to acknowledge what happened to them. And you get this weird ass conversation with Picard a bit later where he's interviewing, you know, he's talking to Miles about Maxwell and it says, how did he react to all his family getting killed in Setlick thing? And he said, oh, you know, he was back at work later that day and he was completely normal and everything was just fine. And he just thought, you think that is reasonable, O'Brien? What is wrong with you? Yeah, yeah. But this goes to show how things have changed. Season one of Star Trek, the Next Generation, they Gene Rodenery would not accept that any human being could be flawed. That was part of the remit of the show. was they're all perfect and you know, they don't use money and they're not racist and all of this. Look how things have changed, you know? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, like it gets, you know, it gets to a point where, and I don't think Jim Rodden would, you know, when you've got characters like Kira, who are terrorists, who are murderers as part of the main ensemble. I know that she's not a human, but I think Pillar came in and said do you know what? We need to up the drama here. We need to bring in, you know, bring in some themes like racism. And make it make it more about people and less about people in jobs solving space problems. Yeah. And I, I like, I do like, I know TNG can be a bit too subtle at times, or just... No, but I like how quietly this is handled. Like, they do, they do deal with racism elsewhere. We talked about Fabia on the stars before, and it's very in your face. you know, but it looks, it's quiet moments. It's quiet admissions. I like that. I like... That it is it isn't melodramatic. But I think this scene is weird. And so we're in the turbo lift. It's Miles and the 2 Cardassians who aren't Markalemo, and they're just talking quite pleasantly, and one of the Cardassians is trying to be nice, and O'Brien is really rude to them. Yeah. Well, the end of the scene where he says, you know, I'll do whatever my captain says, but what I do in my free time, I'm spending my hours with you, right? And then he denies to Keiko that he feels anything bad about the Kardassians, but he's just done this, and it just seems... Like, he's been aggressive and then he denies... Yeah, he's really rude. And like fair enough, you know, like he killed one of them and was in a war with them and that's how people react and we know that you know, there were people in Australia who fought in the, you know, the Pacific in World War 2 who, you know, never lost their hatred of Japanese people and that's regrettable and terrible. But that's a thing that happens in war. So, okay. But, I don't know. I just don't buy the arc. I don't quite know what's supposed to happen here. At what point does Miles learn a lesson, you know? introduced here, but it's dealt with far better later. I don't know if you remember the DS9 episode Cardassians in season two, which is about the orphans, and they have a Cardassian child staying in their home, Miles and KK. And there are some really powerful scenes where the child says to O'Brien, you know, don't you like Cardassians? Like, like, what is it about me? you don't like. And it's really confronting. And to be honest, it's a lot better written as well. Yeah. Do you know how I read that scene in the Turberlift? I think he fancies O'Brien, you know. That's why he's trying to get him. No, it's true. It's season 3 of DS9. There is a Kardashian that comes on and literally is pursuing him round the what are those shafts that he works in? She's hunting him down the Jeffrey shoes. I think the Cardassians have got a bit of a thing for Miles O'Brien. Oh, maybe that's it. Maybe that too. Yeah, yeah. No, what's this? It's got capers in it. Oh, that's Colcanon, isn't it? It's mashed potatoes, cheese, capers. It's really nice, actually. I much rather have that if I'm on it, stodgy food. than my crabs or Keiko's plankton loaf. But you know, despite these slightly dodgy dialogue, I do think these 2 have a good chemistry, I think I believe the relationship as it continues. I like the fact that it transfers. They go from this lovely, you know, hotel in space to that grotty shitty space station. We got to deal with a fallout of that. Yeah, I like it. And I really like hear that idea of sort of sharing each other's cultures. Because it's what you're doing in a relationship, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and obviously, like, this is their 1st week of marriage. You know, they literally got married last week. You shouldn't be having polite meals. They should just be... Well, in fact, there is a really, really gross line at the end of his seat. Do you know what? Do you remember that one where O'Brien is taken to Carthassia Prime and is forced to endure like a fake trial? There's a scene in the runabout where literally she climbs on top of him and they start doing unspeakable things in the cockpit of the runabout. I mean, honestly... Yeah, say that, did I? I just think here, the level of, like the absolute lack of insight that O'Brien is showing here or the way that he's repressing, like I just don't quite get it. And I guess... I'll tell you what it is. They haven't done this before and they're sort of feeling into doing this style of characterisation. So it is all a bit blatant and a bit awkward. But it doesn't quite work. And like it's called the wounded, and so it's Maxwell and O'Brien are the wounded. They've been damaged by their experience in Setlic 3 and they're unable to properly acknowledge how they feel about it. But it doesn't, it just doesn't quite work and I don't know what they learn at the end, I guess. Certainly what O'Brien learns at the end. I don't know what's going on there. do love that. That last scene between them where they sing the hymn, though. I think that's the moment where that relationship hits and you feel something. It's cheesy as hell. Oh, but that whole idea is that's great. Two old soul soldiers. He knows he's defeated. He knows probably the last time he's going to see him, and they sing that sort of ditty together. And I know Michael Piller added that song. So I think he knew, he knew when to end so a character. Yeah, since 6 episodes to make them work. It's really, really great. Can I redress an erroneous fact that I have delivered to you in the past? Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. This episode was directed by Chip Chalmers and I told you that he only directed the magnificent Ferengi and take me out to the holo suite. Actually, that's how he did a ton of TNGs as well. And not just comedies. And, you know, the direction is a little bit theatrical and there's not much going on with a camera work and things like that. But I think he knows where to put the camera in the sort of the hard hitting moments. Yeah, which is right in the actor's bloody faces. So this moment here, like, where, like, absolutely selling how important his decision is to send the transponder codes to the Cardassians. It's amazing. Cuffs warfed out as well, doesn't he? Mr. Walf. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Oh, here we go. So they didn't they didn't do any new effects for these scenes then. No, I think that they're high resolution even. It's very sharp, you know Yeah, I think I think that's a that scanner are very sharp. So, so their decision is to play out the rampage. basically, you know, backsource rampage where he kills a whole bunch of Kardassians is just played out as dots on the screen and looking very nice here in the high definition version. And I can't see a way of avoiding that. And I think the thing that maybe sells it is Gulmerset's reaction because it is also very, very low key, you know, but... Yeah, look at that. Look at that reaction. It's not histrionic or anything, but he's, he feels it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Picard's restrained like, oh, shit, what's just happened, you know, all contained in his face. I think, you know, Chip Chalmers was probably like, well, okay, so you're going to give me some fabulous special effects for this sequence and they're like, no, we've got no money. So actually, he makes a wise choice. And I don't know if you noticed, it was like cut, cut, cut to every face as the camera was zooming in. So it had a bit of movement and a bit of drama to it. He's, you know, what, he ain't got much, but he's going to do what he can with what he's got. But I mean, in the sense this is a sort of messenger scene, and if it had been if, like, I can imagine a version of it where we see you know, we're on the Cardassian ship and we see the Phoenix approach and stuff and that it would all be a bit mawkish or a bit kind of over the top. And I think I think just relying on Massette's reaction is the right call. This is potentially the most boring job. Do you see what he's doing there? pulling out isolinear rods. He's so bored standing there in the transport. Wow. Apparently there's a lot of that about. Oh, listen to you. I've served with the 2 finest captains in Starfleet. And then he says, he says the same thing to Cisco as well. You know. This is how, I mean, it's unlisted, but this is how he gets these sweet posts, you know. That's right. Still the time. tactical officer on the feet, on the whatever it is, the rutledge. No, he's just standing in. I suppose it's the flagship of the Federation. Yeah, it's pretty good. This is so weird. Oh, he took it pretty well. I mean, you know, his family was dead, but he was okay. You know, he never... He never missed a minute's duty. You can't just say... Do you think perhaps he should have done and had... God does react. He is a bit taken aback and he doesn't quite know how to respond. But again, this doesn't go anywhere. There's nothing that we get from this. Is it about men? Is it about like men being fucking maniacs and not being able to deal with their feelings of grief or what is it? Well, with O'Brien. I think it is just sort of leaning into the whole loyalty aspect isn't it? And I think it's bizarre because it's a bit cultish, like that you would be, you just accept terrible decisions. that somebody's making just because you think they're an amazing. You probably should say to your captain, have a bit of time off you know, like, honestly, can I speak to counsellor Troy? Yeah, yeah. No, I mean... And what was this all about? Like old leather. You're talking about hate, isn't he? Hate and they love these metaphors in anger. I just loved hearing that in Patrick Stewart's voice, though, where he says, like old leather, you know, like it's so great. He's so good. And he's probably good in this, and sometimes I think that Patrick Stewart's a little bit overrated as an actor, and, you know Americans just love him because he's got that Rata accent, but I think he's really terribly good in this. When he is given something meat, he'd get his teeth into. I think he always delivers. I think it's when he's asked to do embarrassing things and you can visibly see it on his face. Like, how has my career come to this? Yeah. Do you remember, like, there was that news story that he said he wasn't going to go on unless they gave him a few more girls on his arm and let him direct a few episodes because he was doing so many embarrassing things all the time. Oh I love this scene. See, I think it's a bit overwritten. I think it is a bit overwritten and I think... I just, I like the idea because we don't often see it with the Kardashians. like somebody reaching out like this. They're generally portrayed as the bad guys of the trait universe. So every time we see one like this. Like, the one that had a romance with Quark, she's really interesting, the scientists that come along in Deer science destiny. They're always quite interesting characters because it's playing against the norm. Yeah. I guess... I mean, this is kind of nice and it is just, I just think that the story, you know, like it was all women and children and then a woman threw me the phaser and it just happened to be... and I didn't check and blah, blah, blah. Like, I just don't buy any of that for a second. Do you know what's the best one? Do you remember in that, um, the 1st episode of the Homecoming, uh DS9 series, too, where Lee Nullis is talking about, oh, they made me a hero because I'd went down, literally went to hide. shot and Kardashian shot his underpants. Did you remember it? Yeah, yeah, that's a really great version of this. But they're always a bit ripe. Yeah, yeah. And every, I'm not, I'm looking at you, every regular in every 90s trek show has a moment like this where they talk about their past and there's some, you know, some hideously overdumb story. You know, like, I think too, that, again, I just think Star Trek can't handle that at this and maybe ever, that the problem wasn't that he killed a Cardassian by accident. Like, the more interesting problem is that he had to kill a bunch of Cardassians by choice in order to defend Cellic 3. And that would have been a bit more interesting rather than, oh, I would never even swat a mosquito. And then I vaporised this fucking asshole who was shooting. Come, come way of the warrior. He's taking out fucking Klingons, why you wouldn't believe. He's gotten over that by that point. I'm telling you. That's right. That is a minefield of bloody Klingon's dead at the end of that episode. O'Brien shot off them. Yeah. So he wrestled with his conscience and he won. Yeah, yeah. So, I don't know. I don't I just don't think that his arc works. And I don't think we address the weird cultish denial of his feelings that he has in that speech with Keiko and then in the speech with Picard. What would be more interesting would be if the episode manoeuvred him in a position where he couldn't obey Maxwell. So then it kind of explored it that way, but we don't really go there. I know they're together at the end, but it's basically you're coming with me. You know, like, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And maybe that scene is better because it doesn't address anything because it just happens, you know. Well, of course, one of the Kardashians has been poking around in a computer. But look at his response. I really like how he responds and he is selling that he's cooperating with Picard. Picard is making concessions and is, you know, basically shopped Maxwell to the Cardassians. But you remember I said about that ambiguity. You can read this 2 ways. how to look like. How do you do this? The other version of this is, how dare you fucking get caught? You know, you should have been better at your job. Because I'll tell you what, the Kardassians, they don't do failure obviously, they'll throw you in prison for anything or execute you. Yeah. But I, I mean, I kind of like this. This is a really good scene with the 2 of them. They're both great in it. We're in the ready room, which means it must be serious. It must be serious. This is not for public consumption. But the way Picard responds, you know, you do what you like. I'm I'm done. There's no I'm not going to push it any further, you know. If you think I'm going to fill out one more bloody form to Starfleet about your man poking around in the computers. All about him being conciliatory because Starfleet fucked up in this one. And a lameo smiles as if to say, yeah, I won this one, you know. But they're both kind of lying throughout, aren't they? They're both playing each other. And it's only in that very last scene where that all sort of drops. I love the bit where Picard just turns his back on him. And says, you know, you can piss off now. would have done it the same way, even if he didn't believe Maxwell. And I think that that's the point. The point is that this piece is so important. It's more important than, um, you know, the fact that the Cardassians are doing stuff in their own, you know, dodgy things in their own territory and stuff. It's just like, I'm not going to react to that. Uh, you know, I'm not going to be the one, hey, look at this beautiful ship at nebula class. I don't want to be this boring person who keeps saying, do you remember in this DS9 episode? but do you remember in the DS9 episode Defiant, where Tom Riker Nick's a defiant, shoots Kira, Nixon Defiant, and then goes off to do terrible mucky things to the Kardashian ships. And then the whole thing is he's got intelligence that they're building up a force of ships over here and he wants to expose it. And then at the end, no, it's true. But we don't actually see it until later in the season when that ship, then they attack the Dominion planet. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's how you do it. is how you do it. you know? Oh, here he is. Max Wells here. Yeah. And so he isn't a broken man. He doesn't appear to be wounded in any way. And maybe that's the point. You know, like he's got this sort of brash masculine veneer and he just seems like a, you know, like a blokeey asshole. you know, like he's super unlikeable and that's fine. But what we don't get is what we get from Decker, in the doomsday machine, where he's Captain... And that is so much better. He is unfucking hinged throughout and like yours, you're absolutely certain he has been completely scarred by the instant. You're right. He playing very nicely. And this scene here, I thought how it was written and how the table sort of turned where he comes in going, oh, Captain Picard I'm so pleased it's you coming out here. You know, you know what it's like. You're going to be behind me. And then by the end of the scene, he's going, you know, oh bollocks, you know, you know, you're not behind me at all. But all of that, you're behind me, is that weird kind of personality disorder thing. You know, it's like those bureaucrats bureaucrats back at Starfleet. They don't understand, but you're like me, you're a good guy. And the moment that he's not, he lumps them in with the bureaucrats in Starfleet. Like, it's horrible personality sorted stuff like Lawker in Discovery Series one. And again, this is so inferior to that. You know, this guy should be more... you know why I think before this, we probably wouldn't have noticed his performance is because I think a lot of Star Trek, the Next Generation has these sort of murder she wrote style performances in it. Yeah, just slips in with all the others, but then you get, you get somebody like Gene Simmons and you see just how astonishing it can be. Or our friend Mark Harelich from, um, uh, counterpoint, you know like, or, or what's his face from, um, progress. You know, like these, you know, the just... Keith, Keith. Brian Keith. Oh, amazingly good. Yeah. There was this, you know, they found there was this big... The bullshit blocking where he's standing in front of a camera with his back to Picard talking to him because it's a fucking soap opera. It's so bad. We should count how many times they do that. It's a lot, though. It's an all this TV thing. When they're stuck in a runabout, you know, such a tight space. They've got to do those shots in order to get them both in, you know? Yeah, that's right. But it is this sort of, oh, like a this, like a bureaucrat's office. And he's absolutely can't deliver the line. And like Picard is great. Like, Stuart is great because he's not overplaying it either, but he's sort of sitting back there and he's absolutely incredulous and he's absolutely not giving Maxwell anything. He's not gonna take any of Maxwell's shit at all. It's just like you are a monster. Do you remember when they did this again? a similar story with the Pegasus and it was Riker and that fantastic actor that's just been in everything. He's in lost, he's in... I forget his name. Do you remember I can't remember. But it's basically these themes. Yes, isn't it? Uh, Frakes and that actor are beep of ours as good as each other. So it is this taken up to 11. I wonder if Stuart was sitting there thinking, oh, he's just bombing this. We had James Simmons, the other weight. What's gone wrong? That's right. Yeah, yeah. But like him and Mark, like they're better. That's a better duo here. And this is the central relationship of the episode and it just doesn't work. This scene is terrible because he's not good. Nana visitor always used to say about Markalemo. She said, you know what? I would never let kit, no matter how much Mark went on about Kieran, um, Dukat being together, I would never let it happen. She goes, but getting scenes with him. He would up my game and her game is pretty high as it is. She goes, I'd have to come up there to match him, you know. I think, um, Michael Amo bitches in the what you leave behind a documentary that no one ever told him he was doing good work and Ira Bear just like stares at him like incredulously and goes, Mark we kept writing you up. We kept giving you work. It won't happen like you were going. We would have fucking written you out. You know? He's like, but no one ever said anything and then it comes to our repair guy. actors are so needy. You know, like, Oh, God. Like, Picard, like Stuart handed him a thing. And then he's just staring into the middle distance. He's got no idea what to do with it. Do you not think he looks a bit bored? This thing over. He's just not very good. unfortunately. Fortunately, they send him back to his ship in a minute. We don't see him for a little while. I never see him again. Yeah. What's Nathan, can you tell me what style of ship that is, please? No, that's nebula class. There's like the one in the office. I knew you would know. Credits of Deep Sa 9. There's a little one like that on one of them. Oh, no, look, there's a long shot of the bridge. Yeah, it always looks terrible doesn't it? It's got those red. Do you not get a sort of, I don't know, like nostalgic tingles for it? Oh, yeah, of course. Of course I do. And I think in normal shots, it looks pretty good. Like, that's an interesting shot. There's interesting things happening in the background. There's someone's bum there in that scene there. Yeah, you know, like, I do think it sort of works, but it doesn't work in space. Because they've got a hole, right? Every time there's a close-up on someone's crotch, every time we see people. Maybe it's warf. Maybe war. I think it probably is. I'm sure it's impressive He'll attack those ships just as he did. A priority one message. How many how many numbers do you have? Yeah, just one. No, that's super priority. Like, if it's priority 428. They might get it, you know, in a year or 2 Tell Admiral Nachea I've sent her some flowers. Priority 10 message, right? That's right. Oh, this made me laugh. I was shouting. my laugh came running because I was getting so angry. And he goes, oh, in a minute he goes, oh, yeah, take us from warp 5 to warp nine. Why the fuck weren't you going to warp 9 in the 1st place? We want to catch up with him before he murders a ton of people. It makes no sense. But just for the drama, you know, they should have done that Red War thing. You know, that line about step up from Blue Alert to Red Alert. Are you sure, sir? It does mean changing the bulb. Yeah, now we get to see the... There we go. The actual ships. We get to see the actual ships. that's pretty good Wait, you see the shine? It's nice. That cut... Yeah, I do too. and it's like visible here for the 1st time in the opening, you know, like when we 1st see them come on board. So it does debut here and they keep it up, it's good. In the future, when we can afford CGI battle scenes. Those Kardashian ships, you know, they're very sleek. They fly through the battlefield. But in a minute, honest to God, the shooting that goes on, it's so dull. Yeah, yeah. It's funny. yeah. He says, he says, fire the phaser. So we get one shot of the phaser, but then we, that's it. That's all we see. And he's like, fire again. I thought, my God, are we going to have more scenes? No, that was it. That one that was our hero shot. Yeah, see, this is the chance for him to be a bit crazy. Do you know what I mean? Why isn't he being crazy? He's ruining his career. He's stealing a starship, essentially, at this point. But he's just sitting there looking bored. With this performance, I think he's ruining his career, you know? You remember that whopping great close-up on Decker as he was going into the doomsday? And it was really, well, I mean, the music was doing a lot of the work. It was going crazy. But in comparison, yeah, no, he's nothing. He's no good at all, I think. And you know what? There's something about the O'Brien walked in, right? He looks so awkward just sort of standing there in that dead space. He doesn't quite know what to do with his arms there in that sense. That was just so weird. Just there with them hanging limply down your sides, Collin. But you know what? If I walked into that room, I would have sort of gone round and been with them, you know? I wouldn't just sort of stand in a weird empty space. That thing where he says you tend to get inside someone is super upsetting. I don't know what they were doing. long evenings on satellite three. upsetting. You're not the only one. This is another cliche of 90s trek. Okay, where somebody's been close to the, you know, the nutty admiral of the week or the nutty caps end of the week. And they understand their tactics. So they go, oh, yeah, well, they're going to do, you know, the Kubayashi Maruma, you know, and then as if they've only got one move. You know? Yeah, yeah. Well, lowered the whole... That is exactly what they do in the episode so we can counter it. And look at this ship. So the ship is one room. There's not even any panels or anything on the wall, is there? There was a window. We did see the Enterprise out of a window, so that's sold that we were on the other ship. Did it reflect? No, of course. Yeah. What the hell happened to this war? Blah, blah, blah. Yeah. There's no war. I think this is supposed to be deeply moving, but I think it's not until they start singing that I actually feel anything. Yeah, well, all that stuff about Stampy and stuff. The guy's such an asshole. Like he's such a fucking asshole. I you know, I just dislike him enormously. It's all that sort of bloakey shit like is there baseball captain or something. He still looks awkward just standing there, doesn't he? Is his old? No, but I don't think Maxwell's doing any better job with his arms at all either. Well, at least he's moving about a bit. I suppose. I know, but you know what? I don't I don't think Columini is doing a bad job in this episode. Maybe some of the writing is overdone, but I think he kind of sees his opportunity here. We did talk over his one acting moment where he got to see children who never had the chance to grow up. So moving. That's our most melodramatic moment since Edinton went off to sacrifice himself. Yeah, that's right. He's not coming. So great. Right back. Now we're talking about stompy Jesus Christ. Oh, I don't think they know this is ridiculous. you know, all of this. melodrama. Well, you know, it is sort of melodrama and surely they must realise it's ridiculous, but he can't do it. That's no problem. He's given something so ripe and so obvious and he can't sell it. It's a shame But can you imagine the scene without the singing? Like, it's the scene that makes it. Yeah. And singing again is super cheesy and super ribe. But I do like, I actually like the idea that... I don't know. Nothing gets resolved about the plot, about men not being able to deal with their emotions, about people experiencing harm and and then taking it out on people because they can't deal with it. And nothing teaches him to deal with it. But it is just, no, I, Brian, either. acknowledged that he has problems with the Cardassians. and then we move on. Yeah, but it is a thread they pick up. So that's that's fair enough, you know, that it's not something they forget. No, but it doesn't, it does mean that in the context of this episode none of it quite works. And it is picked up in a different and superior show, yeah. Many years later. And there is something, I don't know what's going on here. Certainly Colms giving a better job, but then at this point, the music, the soundtrack takes up and plays that song as well. And I think that that's the thing that I, you know, that's the moment where he realises it's so good. Yeah, yeah. Like the music you heard it, it just comes in and starts doing that very song and I just thought, okay, I'll buy that. That's what you should be doing. I mean, I noticed all the ad break, you know, the 52nd ad break music in this. right, it's right. This is the 2nd 90s episode on the trot where you mentioned the music in a positive way. Yeah, it's that moment. I've got a reputation to live up to, you know, Nathan, honestly. Yeah, yeah. There's still nothing. It's still nothing as good as original series music. No, this isn't what this episode is all about, but this is the best scene in the episode in a minute between Bassette and Picard. It's so good Yeah, I agree. And it's it's that twist, which I think is so good. Because the previous thing is about war, the other plot, the A plot, I suppose, because the episode's named after it, is about the war, but this plot between those two just shows how important pieces, and maybe because war damages people the way it damaged Maxwell and O'Brien. Um, which is why peace is so important for, because he, like he just underplays here. Like, he doesn't do his usual sort of plum lecture thing. He's just, I don't know. And I, I like... There is like an underlying, there is an anger in his voice. I like, you know? I like the line and again, I think it's really ripe. which is loyalty like that doesn't come easily to my people. And I like that line for some reason. It's a cheesy Star Trek line. At least they're acknowledging it, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Yes, I just love the best line in this whole scene. is an unspoken line when Picard turns his back. It's amazing. The thing is that Maxwell was right as well. Like Maxwell, like it's exactly the same evidence that Maxwell Maxwell said that it can't be a scientific base because it's right in this strategic spot and that's exactly what Picard says. So he was 100% right. Fucking annoying because I don't pick up on it. There's a story there to be told. Yeah, I mean, just go, well, that wasn't done. Let's ignore that. Well, but it brings the Kardassians in and they do become a thing and obviously they're massively beefed up. in, like, what, next year? the year after. No, hang on. We've seen the pajoras already at the beginning of season four. Or was it season five? season five. But it adds a lot of context to Amazon. Yeah. these scenes are great. Look at him. Now he goes, turning around. That reaction, the just the book that passes between them. It's really good I never wanted to fuck Patrick Stewart. That moment, honestly. So good. Yeah. Oh my god, fantastic. Yeah, he just gives him a big lecture and then he walks out. It's awesome. We've highlighted quite a few things that were wrong with that episode, but compared to a lot of TNG, we talked about, there was so much to say there, you know, which means that the content was there, even if the execution wasn't always perfect. Well, I think it aspires to be about something and it still has a space problem, doesn't it? But it's a space problem that sort of has a human cause and a human solution. And it's making space be a bit more like, A bit more like Earth where there are different countries with different agendas and different ways of interacting with all that. trying to plot out the quadrant now, aren't they? They're trying to really give us a sense of location. Yeah. And like that has its pros and cons, you know, you lose the strange new world aspects of things if, uh, if everything's a little bit too determined and everywhere's kind of known, but I think this works really well. The problem with it is, isn't it? Is that if you, then, I don't know, if you plot out the entire Apple quadrant as they do. And TNG does a lot of background work, but you're a show that goes from place to place every week. You're only going back to those places every now and again to catch up with it. So it's really hard to have what you need is a show. sorry. It's a show that's set in one location. And there are consequences. But I will always say TNG did a lot of background work, you know and it's in episodes like this. Nathan, will you indulge me? I'd like to throw out a quote from Jerry Taylor about this episode. It might give you a little bit of context as to what they were going for in this episode. You tell me if you think it was a success. Okay. So Jerry Taylor notes. It was a sort of heart of darkness with the rogue captain out of control. It started with the idea that if you had at war. sorry, if you've been at war with a country and now you're not at war with them anymore, you can't just immediately become friends. If you're trained to look at people as the enemy, it's hard to know how to be their friends. While in the 24th century, people have a much more expansive view of the galaxy and are able to do it a little better. We planted the idea that some people had just a little more residual problem with that sort of thing and harboured some resentment. It's a very provocative kind of idea to get into. The material was somewhat epic in nature. I'm sure, which was always fun to do, and yet at its call was a very personal story between him and Picard, where 2 strong people Sorry, we're too strong and able people tee off against each other. So I think their emphasis was on Picard and Massette, rather than O'Brien and Maxwell. But I thought that that was Picard and Maxwell, though. I thought that it's Maxwell who can't, like, that's what I assumed that she was talking about. But the problem is that then it relies on this central performance that just doesn't work. And the idea that people are traumatised by war isn't all that interesting, really. I mean, it's a thing that happens, but it's not a, you know exciting insight that hasn't occurred to anyone. What is the heart of darkness? Oh, you know, the Joseph Conrad novel, you know, like, and so it's the idea, I use the example of Ahab, you know, like this man needs to be damaged and he needs to be slightly kind of dark and out of control and he doesn't manage that. He just seems like an obnoxious football coach. You know, like, and that's the problem. It's not epic because the guest actor can't bring the epic. It's also not epic because it's on the standing sense with no special effects. Oh, that's true. All right, it's time for us to pick our story for next episode. So, Joe, explain to us which series we're going to be watching and why. As ever, Nathan, I am taking us towards an area of Star Trek that you adore and I'm ambivalent about, and that is the Kurtzman era of Trek. However, I've selected 3 series, which I feel are underrepresented simply because there aren't that many episodes of them, but I just want to talk about them again. So I have chosen Star Trek, Lower Decks, Star Trek, Prodigy, and Star Trek, Strange New Worlds. Oh, okay, that's exciting. All right. Okay, well, press the button then. I won't know what any of them are. So you're going to have to help me out here, okay? Okey-dokey, your random Star Trek Lower Decks episode is no small parts. Season one, episode 10. Oh, so that's the series finale. Oh my god, it's not the one where they're fighting round the ship to resolve their issues. No, in fact, I think... This is, yeah, I think that's like episode 9 or something. Like, it is quite close to the end of the series, that 1st series I think. But this is the series finale. Something quite surprising happens in it and we get to meet the big bad for season two. And of course, it's as funny as anything. But, uh... And I really want to do a lower decks episode, but I've already pressed upon again. Sorry. That's right. Oh, okay. It might have to be the one, you know, because I am desperate to watch more Strange New Worlds or to at least be forced to do it. This is season one, episode seven, the Serene Squall. Holy shit. This is so good. It's really, really great. And what's the price? Um, so it's about pirates. Space pirates who are attacking colonists, and we have to defeat them. It has a guest actor who, unlike this week's episode of Star Trek the next generation, is nothing short of absolutely spectacular and to brings in it. It's so good. It's a really good. You know, is it actually like a pirate style story because I've never met one of those I've really enjoyed. Oh, you wait. really good. Well, that I'm saying, the serene squall, because I want to watch more stranger than it was. That pilot was phenomenal. Okay. This is really good as well. You'll love it. Can't wait. You've been listening to Untitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford and Nathan Bottomley. We're online at Untitled Star Trek project.com, where you can find links to our Twitter, Facebook, and YouTube channel. Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceran, and the theme was composed by Cameron Lamb. This episode was recorded on the 21st of July 2022 and released on the 22nd of July. We'll see you next time for Star Trek Strange New Worlds, the Serene Squall. Hang on, you just give me a second, 'cause I actually set up the episode. Give me one second. Look, he's called... Lonely, lonely among us. He's not great, is it? Look. No, he's not. Is he? Here he is. Oh, let me say, hang on. Oh, no. That's the one. to turn the thing off. It was a great meal, Lieutenant. He's really funny. Oh, one second. Oh, wow, future imperfects in this season as well? Yeah, yeah. Oh, no, night terrors as well. are you? It's got Deanna's bum in it. That's what it means by one. Of course you do being contrary. Okay, hang on. I'll try to slip some of my quotes in for a memory alpha as we go because like quite long in then. Make sure. Yes, I'm ready. I have to watch it. I watched a DVD downstairs in SD. Oh, it looked very funny. I think this is high def. I think this is the updated special effects version. Okay. All right. Okay, so here we go. Five, four, three.