Dragon’s Teeth

Hey, Joe. Hi. So, we're back aboard Voyager this week. It's season 6 episode 7, Dragons teeth, which sees the introduction of the Vardois, a pretty significant contribution by Voyager to the Star Trek pantheon. They will be back. Jway says in the last scene. not the last we've seen of them. Yeah. And I gather originally, and this is from an interview with Brannan Braga that's quoted on Memory Alpha, that this was going to be one of Voyager's kind of big two-part event episodes, you know, like dark frontier. And I'm usually someone who thinks that if something's a bit crappy, it wouldn't be made better by making it twice as long. But I have to say that there's something about this that would have made, I think, for a pretty great event episode, but instead because it's just another episode of Voyager, it all seems a bit inconsequential. It even feels like they're trying to put in the resources for a 2 part episode, you know, because I think like, yeah, we will probably point and laugh. That's what it's TGI in this episode. But for the time, it's pretty good. It's pretty detailed, you know, and there's some there's some good sort of Voyager going to the atmosphere of a planet and stuff like that going on. There's some terrible backdrops through Windows in Voyager, but we'll talk about those. Do you know what? You sent me a bit of trivia about this. It's supposed to be a two-parter, and then they decided to make it a one-parter because they didn't think it would stretch to a two parter. And then they realised, no, as a one parter, it's too rust, and it should have been a two-parter after all. We were in series 6 of Voyager now. They should be better at doing this. They've made, what, 140 fucking episodes of this now. So they should know as a script is coming together. Do you know what? This is long enough. Let's bolster it out. Let's lose fucking Alice because that was a dog turd of an episode and make dragon's tea for too far. It just bugs me because I think there's potential here. I think this could have been pretty special, but because it has to rush everything. So motivations are lost. There's no time to give anybody any character. We literally dash like the events run from one thing to another. There's no time to breathe in any of it. I don't know. I came out of it, just angry because I could just see something really special here, and there was no time to, there was no time to make it special. I was irritated by like the performances of the Valdoir. I don't think there was any great charisma in any of them when you compare them to like the actors they get in to play aliens on DS9. It just is really obvious that they are just going for mid-level actors to play these roles. Whereas I think if this was going to be a two-parter. They pull in, you know, an anorax or something like that, you know a ball queen. somebody really impressive. Yeah, so the ting of unfulfilled potential, unfortunately, reeks from this, which is so annoying because I think there's good stuff in it. I think Neelix is great in this. I think 7 is great in this. I think there's some good action in it. There's some pretty good direction, some pretty bad direction too but there's some pretty good direction of paths. I like Janeway all business. Like, there's good stuff, but it's really average because of how it's crammed into 45 minutes. You see, it looks like it's positioning itself to be the introduction of a great new enemy, and obviously they decide it doesn't work. And their wrong doesn't work. Yeah. I will get there. But the idea is that this was a race of people who have been absent for 900 years, much like the crew of Discovery, and they turn up again. And 900 years ago, they were kind of these mythological figures that would just appear in your sky and take over your planet that would appear out of nowhere and attack your... And now there's something from the past, like this long dead evil that has emerged into the present day and is keen to start doing that again. But they absolutely flub it because there's no atmosphere at no point do they seem like ancient and terrifying, which is what they need to seem like. And because they're on the back foot, because they constantly portray being from 900 years ago as a big disadvantage because apparently technology advances at the same rate everywhere, so all their stuff's out of date. So they had deliberately sort of positioned them as not really a threat. And so something that could have been really strange and eerie just becomes stupid Voyager people and they look dreadful. Like, Voyager has the Boma, right? But this was going to be, you know, like maybe the main threat of series 6, right? And they just look absurd. They are so bad. And like 90s latex Star Trek alien races are not that good. And even the ones that we see all the time are often a bit of a problem. And like last time I kept remarking about how much latex there was on screen in just about every shot. But the Vardwa are much, much worse, I think, than any of the attempted regular aliens that we've ever had. I think they're really, really astoundingly bad. And it's the... You know, Dr. Flocks puffs out like a puffer fish. And it's a joke. They look like that, but all the time. All the time. Like they're dreadful. They're absolutely dreadful. And clearly there's some attempt to make them look like snakes like cobras, right? I did it. Bet so would the Kardashians, though, didn't they? Yeah, I mean, the Kardassians, you know, we're lucky that they get away with the Kardashians. they look ridiculous, but they still have a massive spoon on the range. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's still very strange. It's funny But you could do a cobra, right? And it wouldn't look as comical as this. Yeah, 0 no, they just look absurd. And and they just look like white American people as well. Like, that's just kind of, you know, that opening scene with Gedron's wife who's wearing high heels and a little dress. She's running through fucking rubble in high heels. Like, take your shoes off, love. You might get there. She's just an American lady from 1999 who's been in some horrific threshing machine accident. You know, like, it's stupid. It's just stupid. But not only, are they not an ancient and terrifying, you know threat from the past, yeah. They're not a charismatic and persuasive race in the present, and that's what they needed to be here. They needed to be able to convince the Voyager crew. Do you know what? Yeah, maybe we had a bit of a dark pass, but we're a force for good now, you know. And we'll join forces with you and all of that. And if they kind of have gone down that route. But I just think it makes the Voyager crew look so stupid when you need Naomi Wildman to point out, do you know what? These Valdoir aren't very nice. And then Neelix does his little, you know, Angela Lansbury investigation and then exposes the whole thing. It makes them look stupid in an episode where they've actually been behaving quite competently. It's very odd. I think that's the other thing as well that I think that the twist is very, very badly handled. And what it needed to be was we needed to see them interacting with Vardois and starting to get worried about what they say and how they behave. Which they would have done, right, if this has been a 2 pass right. Instead, we just get told about it. So we get Naomi reacting badly to the Vardwir children who we don't see. We get Neelix investigating fairy tales from 100s of years ago by having a conversation with the computer. Like we don't see them starting to behave oddly or starting to rouse the cruise suspicions by their behaviour. There's a hint of it. There's a scene with Gedron and Balana, where Gedron says something odd about his dead wife and Balana reacts to that, but we needed to see more of that sort of thing. And what it needed to be was, you know, the Voyager crew, giving them the benefit of the doubt because they'd seen them in a bad way that they'd been the victim of this nuclear annihilation, but then starting to worry about their behaviour and wonder about them and then culminating in a confrontation. And I think because they don't properly get how cool it would have been for this to have been a terrifying alien threat, long thought to be dead and gone. Like that would have been so great at such a strong idea for an alien as we know as Doctor Who fads because it's a constant thing that they do. It would have been really great, but instead it's just another set of people wearing particularly stupid latex masks. You might fight me on this, but I think there's potential here. I just don't know if they've got the ability to do it. DS Knight did it because it did a six-part arc. of doing like 6 episodes, you know, where you set some of this stuff up where you're in a prolonged area of space, the vardwire space, and you do this whole sort of political shenanigans with lots of twists and interesting guest characters coming in and there is potential to do it. They're just not interested, are they? They want this to be an action episode more than anything. Yeah Yeah. And like it's quite a decent action episode, but like compare it to the introduction of the Hirogen who are more successful and you get hunters and then prey and then you get the killing game. And I think they're quite successful. They're memorable. It is sort of stupid, latex people, but not horrifically stupid, 4 episodes of them, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they're not bad episodes and they have atmosphere, you know like they're a credible threat. There's something very weird about them. Like the hunting thing isn't a massively brilliant idea, but at least it's a strong concept. They nearly have a strong concept here, but because I think it because it's just a general run of the mill Voyager episode there's no time to develop it and turn it into anything. Trouble with Voyager as well at this point is even when it's trying to open itself out, which it is trying to do it because it's left open-ended, is that it's eating its own tail so much. So, you know, we go down on a planet and find people in pods. Well, we did that in the 37s and we did that in the Thor, you know. There's an alien race or there's a race of people on the ship. They want to take over Voyager and use it. Well, we just did that in equinox, you know, like all of these things we've done before. So are they just out of ideas at this point? Well, I mean, I actually think that the stuff about the radioactive planet and then landing in the city and and encountering these people. I thought all of that was really strong and interesting and then having another stupid alien race above the atmosphere threatening them and, you know, waiting with them. No, I don't think they look worse, but they do look very bad. I've been watching how clean is your house recently, right? with Kim and Aggie. because Kim Woodburn. The queen has just left us and what Aggie does is she takes swabs of people's house, you know, disgusting houses and then she shows them, yeah, what could happen to their faces, should they get infected by this streplycophica, whatever it is, right? Honestly, that alien race. It's not a 1000000 miles away from what would happen, you know, if you don't clean your house too much. Take this, that's all. So bad. It's so bad. You can't even talk out of that stupid mouth, can you? No, it's ridiculous. It is ridiculous. But like, I actually think there's strong ideas here and I think the action is actually pretty well done. I didn't hate it. We get in there quite quickly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I thought the CGI was great and I remember at the time, the scene that you sent me a screen cap of where it's some Gedron and chainway. But the view is out the window of her... thought that was fine at the time. In fact, I thought it was hugely impressive at the time. I have to say. And now? Well, I think it's okay. It's certainly trying to look more interesting than just putting up the sequined curtains again. You know. It reminded me of sort of Babylon 5. like they've gone in with Crayola crayons and done some colouring in in the windows, you know? Oh, no, I think those, I think that those images of the ruined city look pretty great. I like it when the ship comes in. Yeah, you know, and it's all it's all of a piece. But when you have that sort of cartoony imagery and then people in front of it, they can't quite do the matting, can they? But I think we're getting to a pretty interesting level of CGI. Voyager's been here for a year or so. I think something like timeless had pretty impressive computer generated stuff in it. Like, like, I think they can do it now. And it's so rare that they try. And this is a completely different kind of environment. I think Voyager only lands on a planet like 4 times or something in its run, and this is one of them, and I think they could have done it more frequently because it looks really good. You know what this is? It's the Voyager episodes where you sort of watch it and you're enjoying it from saying to scene. you know, and you sort of get to the end and go, oh, that was quite fun. And then the 2nd you start thinking about it, it just falls apart. Part in your end, you're like, oh, that was actually a bit of a dog, wasn't it? You know? Yeah, I mean, I think it was a perfectly acceptable hour. I wasn't bored or anything, but it wasn't very good and there were bits of it that were really atrocious. And, and, and I guess the difference between what its ambitions could have been and what we ended up getting just sort of a little bit disappointing, I think. I just think some creative and production decisions take something that could have been exceptional Voyager, not exceptional television, but exceptional Voyager, and what you get is actually something that's diverting. Yeah. And that's a shame. Well, on that note, let's go in. It'll probably be really nice now as we're watching it. Oh, yeah, can I? Oh, can I quickly tell you my theory about the Vardoir? Oh yeah. It's not a particularly interesting one. But I just imagine, they've done so many alien races at this point. They're all sitting around the office going, oh, God. Whoa, you know, a V, a V's a good start for a space name, you know. And then they're sort of... They're sort of going far, va, va... Yes, that'll do. You know, that's basically how they've come up with this, right? It's a bad word, isn't it? It's stupid Well, if they lean on the keyboard and just... I mean, come on Nathan. Gedrin the Vardoir. Yeah, I know, I know. Gedron space name. All right. Okay. I will count as it in that case. Five, four, three, two, one, and we're off. Now, this shot we've actually already commented on because it's in the opening credits of in a mirror darkly, the Enterprise. Yeah, there's the woman with her pipe. high heels off, love. Come on. Like, why do they have hair? Like, I don't know. It just looks it looks stupid. But look, she's wearing, she started on that pretty reasonable, a special effects shot and then come straight into stockcape set number 42. It's cave set number one, but yeah, yeah. And just these people. So this scene is actually set, and I don't think many people will realise this as they're watching it during the reign of King Richard III just before... Did he have much to say about the World War? He didn't know, but this is set in the year 1484 because the main episode is set in 2376 and we learn that it's 892 years. Fetch me my new Royal Chester. I believe he's a Vardois. It's got a real mediaeval feel to it. Imagine one of those vars with those sort of gesture hats with the bills on it, you know? It would have helped. Oh boy. What we having for our face, sire. Roast hardwir tonight. We stayed... I wish they'd done, you know, 892 years later when we go back from the from the ad break, but obviously Voyager doesn't do that. Star Trek doesn't do that at this point. There's such stories to be told about historical periods, you know where Star Trek aliens existed in the distant past. I mean, we aliens always go to the present day. Why can't they go to the post? We actually did learn in our last episode that the Dominion is 2000 years old? Oh, boy. When was that? When was that? period was that? Well, I don't know. The 3rd century, you know, Constantine. I don't know. If you're saying the Dominion wrote the Bible. I'm out, all right, it's after the Bible. It's after the Bible. Yeah, so anyway. That may be the most fun we have this episode thinking of. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yes, fantastic style. The king playing with a Valdoir. So we do expect to see the Vardwir again at some point, but of course they're so reduced by this episode that the prospect of it isn't all that terrifying. If we'd had an episode that had actually launched them on an unsuspecting a galaxy or an unsuspecting kind of quadrant, and then you would have had 7 to blame herself for it and, you know some real. So there's definitely threats to pick up on, isn't it? proper stakes. But the Vardois do actually occur a couple of times more in Star Trek. And there is a dead Vardois on board the station in the Enterprise episode Dead Stop. Okay. And so we do see the body. And in the recent Star Trek film section 31, which was really fun don't at me. There is a hot lady Vardoir, who has not looking like this. No, looking much better. The makeup is really actually quite good. They managed to make her look like a cobra. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a significantly better makeup. I went to this and went, do you know, we're going to put this in that section 31. Well, because it's Vadwa. You know, like, it's a thing. Of course I did. I mean... Curse control. I love you, but you're fucking mad, all right? They're a bit more purple. Yeah, yeah. Voyager going down this subspace tunnel that, now, and I did like this. Oh boy, there's that shitty alien. I mean, look him. Yeah. Yeah. Have you ever seen the sort of the pictures they put up on the sexual health website about if you're not careful? It looks a bit like that, you know. It looks like what my dogs leave on the lawn after they've eaten a bone. They do go white, don't they? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Do you know, is that the alien? The Kate Mulgrew was talking about, or is it the Vardois? You know, the one where she goes, you know, I was trying so because I swear there's a moment in this episode where you can see Kate trying her damnedest not to laugh. Well, she's never on set with the other guy. Do you know what I mean? Presumably, they're just, you know, someone off, uh, off cameras saying the dialogue. So she's seen that. She tries her hardest not to look at him. So she spends most of it looking out the window. Yeah. Yeah, it's, I mean, it's so bad. Like, this is bad. but we're unprepared for quite how bad. Oh, well, we've seen the vodware in the... Can you even imagine waking up and looking like that? Well, it's not just that. It's like, oh, I've got a job on, I've got a TV job. I'm going to be on this thing on CBS or whatever. What are you playing? I'm playing an alien on Star Trek, which is pretty exciting. like Nemoy, remember him? He was an alien on something. What are you going to look like? I am going to look like, I can't even say. Like the labial. You know, like the, it's outrageous. The necks are so bad. We'll get there when he's on screen and I'll say, it's like the shape between the chin and the and the collar... say this to you. You know, it's work. Right? They're paying you. It's so embarrassing, though. Do you think he even put it on his CV? Oh, I don't know. I don't know. So it's Jeff Allen as Gedron. Um, but we do have a couple of other, um, a couple of other Vardwa who speak. I did love how Janeway was all business in this episode, you know? Like, she doesn't really, she's not the empathetic one. It's 7 who's quite nice to the hard one because she recognises, you know, all, maybe the Borg were a bit nasty to them in the past. But Janeway is just all, like, I don't think she cracks a smile in the whole episode. What I like is that we don't start with, you know, trying to guess Tuvok's age or some tedious banter or whatever. There's no time. No, for the shit. By the time she comes on the bridge, we're already in these subspace corridors. So we're or and now we've just been ejected from them and now we have the Touray who are going to chase us to try and erase all the information. we have about them. So that's the one good thing about reducing this to one episode. Is it snappier? But the bad thing is when you want big sweeping changes to happen in the story and you have to do it, you know, in 5 seconds. Yeah, but I think the problem is that we lose the middle bit of this episode. but because it stops being about the Vandois, getting to know the Vardois. Getting to know them and finding out that they're actually terrible people. I mean, they're called Defardwa. I know, I know, and look how they look. I believe that's Talaxian for foolish. Yes, but I mean... Oh, look at that. Voyager coming down into the atmosphere of a radioactive city. It looks great, doesn't it? Like the city before it, like when it was under attack, in the cold open looked magnificent, we only saw a couple of seconds of it. I only do it sort of twice a year. Maybe once a year, Land Voyager. But if this was now, we'd be doing this every hour, wait, wouldn't we? It's less frequently than that. I think that's like 4 times or 5 times. It's a very small number of... They land it on the demon planet, don't they? I remember that. And they definitely land it in the 37s. Yep. And then there's one more time later on, but I can't remember. Do you remember it? It's like, 0 my god, we've landed the ship next to this beautiful city that we never see. Oh, I know the last one. Nightingale. 19 gallon series 7.. Is that it? In the whole round. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. It's expensive. It's why, you know, um, Yeah, yes. Now 7's wearing heels with all of these rocks about. And like spangly things. Like they're going down to a radioactive planet. I thought, oh, maybe they'll wear suits or something. You've got be kidding me. That is the same angle from the start. They've not even moved the camera. That's exactly the same angle where that woman was walking with her high heels. That's like, right, hang on. You guys stand over there, right? Woman, you go first. Right. Voyager crew, you go next. Great. We got our shots. But it's all bits and pieces that we've been seeing on television for over 10 years now at this point. It's usually when TNG or DS9 goes to sort of mining places. You get the stock cave set and then you get these sort of girders. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I bet there's a there's a girder watch on memory alpha somewhere you know. There's certainly in the vengeance factor was the 1st thing that I thought. I mean, these look just like the pods they had in Npok Nore. Do you remember what the Cardassians in them? Yeah, yeah. Oh, we could have to build more pox. Did you put them in storage stacks pods? But I mean, I kind of like this, but what, it's Rick Colby, isn't it? Like, but there's no atmosphere to this. This is just an usual week. You know, like if it's the beginning of a terrifying and weird new threat, and I think the concept that they have is strong enough that it could be, it's certainly not being sold by the visuals. They're very boring. You recall, al less uncollective are both in this season as well. And so maybe they've just, but then we did have the haunting of deck 12 and that had some atmosphere. Maybe it depends on the director. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I see, I really like when Janeway goes seven, what are you doing? Like, it's so interesting and doesn't she? say to her, you're going to have to brush up on protocols of how to... That's a little bit more boring. Do you know what I mean? It's like, oh, you, it's not that she's broken the mission protocols. It's that she has reanimated someone who could be potentially very dangerous. There's a really terrible race of um, rubber suited aliens in Doctor Who in the 60s called the Oridians. Yeah, they've got these big fins going down their heads. Well, it's nice to see those costumes are now back here for the Hardwire. I think this is really a lot worse than those. The neck. Oh my god, the neck and just everything between those folds. Like they... You know how the sort of the latex appendages that stick out generally are sort of like erogenous zones. You know, like the ears. So I imagine you can do things with the neck there that, you know? ugh helps breathing more. That's bad as well. Like, why does he have all that hair? Like it's... That's quite nasty. Yeah, yeah. Desiccated cups. Why has his wife got all hair coming off her chest? So look. Yeah, no, I don't know what that is. It's awful. But, like, if she did, like, turn to dust or something. Do you know what I mean? Like that needs to be more horror than this. I think. But like they just look stupid. Like they look so stupid. Do you think it hampers the performance? Yes. I just don't think it's a particularly compelling performance anyway. No. Like, the delivery is really flat throughout. Whether it's him or is he Gedrin? Is that Gedrin? Or whether it's the one, you know, who's in charge, who wants to kill everybody. Oh, I just think they're... They've really boringly played it, especially when, you know how we watched Coombs last week as Wayoon and he was being camp and funny and weird and creepy. I just get nothing from these actors. We get a reference to the Devore Imperium, the Devore Imperium? The divorce. That counterpoint? Yeah, you know, better they mention them this week. Now, that's when you add an actor in. A proper actor who was compelling and interesting and you didn't know what he thought. And this guy, I mean, he's very bland and like by the end, he's no threat at all. He's completely domesticated. He's just about on our side. There is, like, this might be me being a little bit. racist now, so I apologise in advance, but we saw... in the audience. Those fans do. They do think they exist, you know. They will be taking offence. But we've sort of like visually, yeah, the makeup people on Star Trek. They tend to make the benevolent races look attractive. Do you know what I mean? And they make the evil races look like the Vardoir. So I think sort of immediately, visually, we're like, yeah, no he's a bad one. Look at him. He's got a pointy face. He's got a winch, the chin and the nose and the just the ridges and the thing. But look at the hair. My God, why do they keep giving these fucking aliens hair? Did you learn nothing from the caisson? Forgot faith. With all their rocks in their hair. Just a big giant thing. Look at his face. Please look at Kate now. Keep it together. keep it together. I've been out this for 15 hours today, please, God. I can't laugh. I wanna go home to my children. Oh my god, that's so funny. Because his neck is so wide, he can't move his face. He's so stationary. I think this looks really good I don't think this is badly mattered in at all. I think it's good. I just don't think to see Joyce there. He looks like the sort of thing I would draw in that window. I'll say, you know, you are matted in on this Zoom call against that blasted city background far more effectively than Chainway is in this scene. But I certainly remember it being exciting at the time. You know, you can see something out the window instead of just the normal, you know, curtains with sequins sewed on. How is he supposed to emote with this arrowhead chin? Yeah, yeah. I did like that bit where she says I would take an umbrella and he smiles and says I should learn from you. Fuck is Neelix off, and it was like a bird's nest. bird's nest. Yeah, I took the liberty of creating some delicacies from the Belgian Quadrids. Oh, you old tongue? I mean, eggs? What is it? No, no, that's the old language that he was the Talaxil Zay in. It's not what he's serving. It looks like old tongue, though. This looks like some very bad eggs. I think Niglix is a much better sleuth here than he is chef. Yeah, but again, I think that this is really kind of terribly boring. Do you know what I mean? say to these new people. Well, in my language, you know, it may be you're an idiot. Yeah, yeah. Come on. Oh my god, bombs coming down. Oh, there we go. He's like, I'm trying to react to that explosion, but help me out here. I've got 3 kilograms of latex on my head. Is it the worst makeup we've seen since coarse oblivion? Yeah, you see, the bad thing about Cause Oblivion was they were doing it to our regulars, though, doing it to, like, our regulars to Kate and to Jerry. They have fixed her lips together. Yeah, that was embarrassing. But these is the stupidest alien makeup that we've seen. No, they've covered up his neck with a costume that makes him look a bit like a Nazi. bless him. It's so bad. Like, I just don't, like, what are they thinking? What do they think they're doing? Do you know, you know, I know you said about the regular alien races in Star Trek and there's as little thought there. But actually, do you know what? Like, I think back to the Gem'adar, the episode of the Gem'adar. Yeah, when they brought in the Vorce are in the cells. And they're doing the same sort of thing, you know, oh, I'm all innocent, and then the twist is actually, I'm part of the Dominion. But I do think, I thought, I think they put some thought into the water looking inoffensive so they could be negotiators. the Jemadar looking, you know, powerful so they could be the soldiers. And then, well, I don't know what was going on with the founders if I'm honest. Wait, wait, just look like Odo. But, yeah, and again, we were talking about how Odo's makeup was perhaps not the best decision that's ever been made on Star Trek but like these just look stupid. I'm going to go to a Star Trek convention, right? Branham Braga's at, and I'm going to put my hand up and say Branham, why didn't you bring back the Vardois? I want to know. Was it the performance, the makeup or just the goddamn episode? Or was it all three? Yeah, it's it's really, it's so obvious what the script, you know like what we could have done, what the concept is supposed to be. It's interesting. Did Chakotay make any impression on you in this episode? Was he in it? He's in this... He was just there. was just there, yeah. Let's him. I think Robert Beltran, who, you know, is an idiot, let's be honest. But I think he did have a point about how they were just sort of brushing him the side. Yeah, yeah. But eventually I think they're brushing him aside because he's not giving them anything either. Oh, I like this effect shop of it. I know it's not. The C shy isn't quite there. It's not very good. But yes, I agree. It's ambition, though. It's all of those pods, 100s of them, isn't it? A massive cavern. But there's there's some CGI. there's a map painting there. There's even a little bit of model work in the foreground. Like it's actually a kind of interesting shot. And it does sell that. So this is where we get the name dragon's teeth from, and it's Cadmus who founds the city of Thebes in Greece. He comes from Phoenicia and founds the Greek city of Thebes, and he kills a dragon and scatters its teeth and creates a race. Yeah. Oh, they explain it in the, it's a Greek myth about a Dragama got slain and stuff, like it takes everything specific out of it and makes it super general. I should have had you, Nathan, as a Greek advisor, just like that Native American advisor, you know? They would have looked it up. But, all right, so now we've got 3 Vardois in this shot. Um, and they all look just insane. shoot them from below. I mean, look, the necks are more obvious from below. She looks on the side. Maybe. And then you can't see the neck. It's so bad. Do you remember the previous ones that looked like, um, that looked like cobras? The no, were they? Sele? Do you remember the Atkins and the Sele? They were great. And why did we why did we stop doing aliens like that? Like, those are proper rubberheaded aliens. They're not just sort of, they they use water and make it glisten. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I thought they looked really good, though, really snake-like. I don't know if these are snakes. Why did they have white people colouration? You know, why don't they make them green? You know, like, why do we have to? Oh, so see. I so I don't like Naomi Watt, man. I just hate children, so I really hate her. Well, I like Molly, but I don't like the Nagol. But Neelix now. I think even Phillips places seen so well where she goes, they were really mean about you and they said you had stupid ears and he goes, well, he goes, I do kind of have stupid ears, you know? And your heart just goes out to him. I think come six. They know what they're doing with Ethan Phillips. Well, giving him a child to interact with. Like, I think this scene is quite good, but I don't think this is how we should find out that the Vardwara are evil. Like that's ridiculous. Neelix and Naomi investigating. having a conversation about something that happened that we didn't see where the children were mean about Neelix, like all of the Star Trek fans were being. And so they're clearly evil. But he listens to her, doesn't he? He goes, yeah, well, you don't have to. Now go to bed. I read your story. Yeah, it's just nice. It's really nice. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then I do like, oh, I don't think we see her again, do we? I think she gets one episode in seven. Right, okay. I think. They considered, you know, the kid was more interesting than the parent. Later. No, she probably had work. the actress. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know? Do you know what I was thinking? You know, you know when Voyager got back to the alpha quadrant in endgame? Yeah. You know, they could tell all of their exciting adventures. You could literally have a bar wrapped with attention of all the exciting things they did. Imagine them telling the story of Dragon's teeth. We flew down into the wasteland of this radioactive city and there was these aliens in space bombing the city to pieces and this racing suspended animation. The Valdois came up. Oh, can we have a look and see what they look? No, no, no, you don't need to see what they look like. But honestly, gosh, I should have been there. Very alien. You're right. This is this here between, is it Gedrin and B'lana? This is the one scene where we get a hint just in their behaviour talking to our people that things aren't quite as they seem. Is that Gedron? I can't tell them all apart. Oh, yeah, no, because he's going on, he's going on about Klingon. Or was it the scene with Kate earlier on where he says something about his wife not being brave at the end or something like that and she goes, that's kind of harsh. No, no. Yeah. Fuck is he at the time to learn all this about Klingons? They're trying to save their entire species. No, again. But, you know, like if they'd been working together over a period of time, like if this was a big event where they find and, you know, they accidentally revive these people and then starting, they start trying to help them. But like if I was, you know, trying to help the survival of my entire species, yeah. I wouldn't be there, you know, reading a load of Greek myths going well, Nathan, you know, I've been reading about Greek philosophy you know? No, it's, yeah, it is. It's a sort of economic way of suggesting there's some sort of a relationship there, but... So, what's you got on the pot there? Can you say the flames going? No. Leola root stew, do you think? Probably. I love this. The funny thing is, So it's it's Migel as the computer. You've got Neelix talking to Migel, and where do the words? where does the word Vardoir, meaning foolish 1st occur, and it's in L. Daxon's collected folklore. Uh, and the names of the individual stories are really funny. Like, have a look at them. Name the specific folk tales. The demon with the golden voice. The deadly stranger. The tale of the boy who lost his head. That's what Neelix goes, that's a bit grizzly. For fairy stories. That's right. The tale of the bloody hand. So good. Actually, this reminds me of investigations. Remember that season 2 episode where Neelix reveals Jonas via his daily chat show TV. Yeah that's right. That's right What are they thinking? For God's sakes. Yeah, see, and all of this, the Borg and the Vardwa, all of that if it was a two-parter, there's time to explore that as well, and the consequences of how she feels about it, but instead we just get these little pin pricks, you know? Yeah. But it because it needed to be a story about them unleashing this ancient terror on this part of the galaxy and they just never, yeah that. flappy necked aliens. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So part of the problem is the aliens just look absurd death. They look stupid and they don't look terrifying. And it's kind of like, oh, they'll be terrifying if they look like snakes and guess what? They aren't. Nathan, are we Delta Quadrant Xenophobic? Yeah, I just think, like, I'm just trying to think about, it's 90s Star Trek that does aliens like this. 60 Star Trek doesn't, particularly and modern Star Trek doesn't. You know, there is that Vardoir in section 31, And of course, what you can do with makeup now is just vastly better and more complex and more convincing. And also they just decide to go for it. You know, so the Vardoir in section 31 looks kind of super strange and terrifying and nowhere near as stupid. You know, we said about how there's some effort here to tell this story visually, and I do applaud that, and I think it's especially true at the start and the end of the episode where there are prolonged action sequence. Oh, boy. There is a lot of exposition and sort of suggested word peril in the middle of the episode though, isn't it? And this was where I was starting to get a bit bored. I was like, all right, stop talking now. Come on. Because I mean, Tubo comes up with a great plan. Right, we're going to go up there, you're going to distract them then we're going to take them out and then we'll all get away together. And it's a tactically a really good plan. But it is a lot of talk. Yeah, yeah. So they needed what needed to happen is that this conflict here between this guy and them needed to spill out and make her more suspicious. Um, you know, but this is all just talk, isn't it? It is... I've just realised, you know, they've all got different lengths of sort of stupid hair. Maybe that's how you're supposed to tell them apart. Not through the performance or the character. Why do they have hair? Like, why do they give them? always give them terrible hair. I mean, there was a scene just there where they shot Gedwin from the side and that bun was so massive. He looked a bit like Helen Shapiro, you know? I was like, what are you doing? Bless them. Anyone who had a heart anyway. Oh, no, that's Silla. Sorry. She had a bum, too. So these scenes here now where they're sort of whispering like we're going to take over Voyager now. Well, yeah, we did that 6 happens ago, episodes ago in Xbox. We have just done this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. But, I don't know. I don't know. We're finding out that they're evil, that they want to, you know rule the galaxy again or whatever. But the crew isn't finding that out. You know, Neelix is just reading folk tales in his quarters. If this was a soup alter. So maybe that could be if they'd sort of executed it better, that they were, you know, innocent. Um, then that could have been the twist at the end of the 1st episode, you know, that, 0 my god. They were a great evil race all along and now we've got to try and stop them. What we do get is actually quite a good scene later on where Janeway confronts Gedron and says, you said that you were traders and stuff, and then that was how you use the subspace corridors or whatever. And that's a scene that we don't see. Oh my god, look at his name. Nathan, why did you say labial to me? Because that's all like... all I can see now. every time I know. What they thinking? What the fuck are they thinking? It's not like I'm an expert in that in any way, but even I thought of it. It's awful. Sort of, you know, it's a Star Trek fan. sort of vervoid-esque. Maybe look at Google the word vervoids and do I see what I mean? It looks so dumb. It looks so dumb. But the Sele looked like Cobras, the one in Section 31 looks pretty cool. But they should have looked more terrifying. They needed to look scary, and we have pity on them, and because we're enlightened 24th century people, we don't judge by appearances. You want somebody like Marco Lamo in that role as well, with huge presidents. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, 7 of nine, would you please come and meet me in the cargo bay? I need to discuss, we need to look at another database. They may be evil. you know. Look how unimpressed she looks. I've been looking at a load of folk tales from my planet and she goes, what? Is that your research? Is that it? Fairy stories? But this, like, this is terrifying. And if we'd found out about it some other way than just Neelix delivering... We'd see it now, wouldn't we? Well, I think you would. You know, it would be like, what was that episode of Discovery will watch with the kid on the planet. And then suddenly, the thing was in orbit and the whole thing was destroyed, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah, sort of thing. Well, maybe if that's the cold open. You know, like if the cold open is, the, the, whatever the terray you know, because a, a federation, like an alliance of people come together, the Vadwa actually describe this to Janeway, an alliance of people come together and then bombard their planet and kill them all and they have to withdraw. If we had seen, you know, a huge event where they just appear out of nowhere terrifyingly and start destroying the planet and we have people making the decision to react to them or something because we never see that because we don't have a sense of what they do. What did the Videans do? What did the Melon do? What do the hirogen do? What do the Kazon do? We know. They have a really strong central idea and we know how they behave. We don't know what threat these people pose. It's what I was talking about last week with the Dominion, wasn't it? was they did all those wonderful setup episodes where you saw the concert. Remember the Quickening planet? You saw the consequences of what they do even before we met them. Yeah, this it's, oh my god. He goes, you wanted to see me, captain. She goes, yes, we're doing an exhibition of gynaecological art. Can we take a cast of your neck, please? So yeah, so yeah, what I think, what I think he's good is where she says no, the story you told me is not true. The Vardwa used the corridors to attack other worlds and then those worlds banded together and they did the right thing. They put an end to the threat that you caused, and he says actually, they're both true. Um, and I liked that. I thought that that was good, you know. But again, like we have done this, Nathan, the tribe. We have done this before. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And we've had this scene where she looks disappointed that she's been cold. I mean, you know, like it's Voyager and it's always going to do similar things. Do you know what I mean? This is the sort of thing that Voyager does. The question is, does it do it well? And is the combination of things new and interesting? And I think that there was enough here for the potential for it to be that. You know, like having them work with a group of people and then discover that they're evil, that's a thing that happens all the time, I think. But if there'd been a particular kind of interesting Vardois twist to it, it would have been good. But I do like as well. I like the idea of this great ancient evil race, but now they're pathetic, out of date and desperate. That's a great idea that they could have run with. Except that's never going to be our recurring villain for the rest of the season then. Do you know what I mean? Because who gives a shit? They're hopeless. But what if we'd unleashed them and they had access to their space corridors or whatever and they were determined to take over the this part of the galaxy again? I hate to keep doing this, but isn't that just species 8472 and fluidic space? Oh, well, the variations on a theme, isn't it? Sure, but it's Star Trek, you know, isn't it all just people in spaceships talking to one another? when we get something like tapestry. We're going, 0 my god, thank you. Something different. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, this is a thing that Voyager does. He introduces a new set of aliens because we're travelling a distance, you know, and we have to meet new groups of people. And this was potentially interesting, I think. Do you know what made me how was when at the end, and it's so quick, I'll say it now. Voyager just goes the fuck out of there and lose them all to fight. Yeah, see you later, going. Fine. This is your war, not us. But I really like this where she just says you're going to do this. You know, we're not going to cooperate with you. Yes, okay, don't give us access to the space corridors. We'll just leave. you know what I mean? Like that's not going to work on us. He should say, you know, captain, you're not as stupid as you look. But I should go, well, you're definitely as stupid as you look. You look stupider than you look. She's great in this scene. I think she's good in this episode. It's business, Janeway, you know? Yeah. Yep. She should have tied her hair up just for this one episode. Yeah, she's got her American lady hair in this season, which... I think it does get in the disarray, though, during the climax. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You always know we're in trouble. Yeah, that's right. 80%. It's failing in structural integrity. That's right. Oh, Tom Paris is in this scene. Look, where's he been all episode? Really? Yeah, he's here at the front, though. He just got one shot. He's not in focus. Oh no, wait, he is. I think Robert Duncan McNeil went, do I have to come in for this? I say one thing about where we're going. That's it. Oh, Harry Kim's here too. it's all contractual In fact, it's all your favourites, this episode. Neelix 7. We had a scene with a doctor and Janeway. And some 2 varket in it as well. Again, too, I think that had this been a two-parter with the budget of 2 episodes, a lot of this narration we would have seen happening. And I think that would have been good. Ships zooming down into the atmosphere. Oh, yeah, when we do see them, like, and that city, the ruined city looks really great. It's just a short of a few seconds, but there's a lot more kind of stuff which has just told us, told to us in a series of messenger speeches where we don't see it. Do you know what's so funny about the special effects is it's foundation imaging, right? That did Babylon 5. But they ditched Babylon 5 during the run and moved to Star Trek because they offered them like 3 times the budget. Great. It really looks great. I think they've they've learned a lot of lessons from those space battles from late DS9, though. But it's nice to see space battles that aren't in space because space is cheap, cheaper to realise. There you go. We just had Kate lose structural integrity in effect. Has anyone seen my hair grip? No, okay. Fire Oh boy, these these bloody aliens. Wow, look, we're just screaming through the atmosphere now into space. The ships are in pursuit. Yeah, yeah, it's quite exciting, isn't it? No, no, it is pretty good. It is pretty good. It does take them quite a while to get a long distance away, but most of this, just for budgetary reasons, has to be just narrated and you do think that if it's a two-parter. Two aliens again. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're bad. I mean, I said that Paul Gedron couldn't demo. How is he supposed to? Well, he doesn't need to emote, though. He's that usual intransigent Voyager alien, you know, like, um Yeah. Captain, I should have warned you, you know, I did warn you that these aliens were evil. Look at the state of your hair. I think this is the point where she goes, oh, let's get out of here. Yeah, well, just leave them to it. She can't see the cure. Like, Kate can't see that you're a. I mean, Janeway can, but Kate Mulgrew can't. And she is still assiduously trying to avoid looking at Gedron. You've got sort of bran and reading in the lines for her. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. It'll be visually impressive. No, it's Rick. Rick reading in the life. Joe Mo's like, get me away from these ridiculous aliens now. Yeah. See, it's a great move, though. I mean, it's not often that Voyager just ducks out of a fire and goes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I kind of like, I sort of like this stuff with the with the array. Do you know what I mean? Like there's that the, we do see a vision of it later. There's the satellite that helps them do the targeting. You know, they take control of an old Vardoir satellite that's still working and that helps them target the terrain. Like, I think all of that's really clear and that's a thing and you know, like it's comprehensible. And we don't see it. Trouble, we keep coming back to these cramped cave sets is I can feel the budget strain in then. It's like, yeah, you've spent all the money on that. Do you remember workforce in series 7? They actually build exterior sets and then Matt in CGI as well. and they managed to do battles in space hand to hand down on the planet and it all it all comes together really well. That's next year, is it? Not quite there yet, are we? Is that next year? That's next year, yeah. That's a big 2 parcel, though. So they've got 22 episodes worth of budget. Well, I did just think 2 parters tend to seem epic in Star Trek you know, especially in Voyager. I mean, I'll give them that. It's, you know, like we had things to say about the killing game but it looked great. I think we had good things to say about... Do remember we had that great shot of the holodeck? Yeah, yeah, yeah. The whole burst open. Yeah, yeah, yeah. In Berlin, you know? Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, the trouble is here is beyond the sort of the holes in the budget is that we just don't care about the Vardwire, do we? We certainly don't care about the terrain. So it is a bit of a punch the air moment when they're like, see ya. Bye. Yeah, see you in section 31. We're all thinking. But I, you know, they put in the tag scene because we're doing the you know, the end of conspiracy again, you know, my God, until the next time. But I would have liked the last shot to have been Voyager just... Come in and go out on an effect shop. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Oh, Harry's got a suggestion now. Or at least he's doing something. Damned if we do. Dad would really don't, says Janeway. Yeah, so we're going to suck up some of the radioactive atmosphere and use that to fuel the ship. God, great billowing explosions in the city. girders falling everywhere. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Like I think that looks really good. Oh, it's a shitty, cheaper girder. They're in the set. Three, two, one. Get out of the way. It's coming down. Do you remember that Gemadar ship that exploded in slow motion and then the girder landed on Dax? That was pretty good. exciting staff. rerouting plasma to the power conduits. I think we may be out of here soon. Yeah, yeah, I think we might. Once you release the manifold. Take us up. Yeah, we go. Look, right through the atmosphere. Yeah, but and they only need to get up a little way and then they can go to warp. Look at that. Well, it looked a bit like an arrowhead then, sort of tearing through that cloud. Instead of like a trowel. Ah, toilet bowl, I think usually. At the wrong angle. It looks like a trailer. Take a haulier bowl later, all right? Imagine a few windows on the top. What does she say? Get us the hell out of here. There you go. And then look at this. That is a wonderful shot of the 2 fleets fighting each other. Yeah, yeah, yeah. and that's right. That's there after. It looks amazing, doesn't it? And that's their after Voyager goes. Oh, accept each other. Then we spoil it with a scene. At the end. What does 7 say? Oh, dear. This was all my fault for waking him up. Yeah, but you see, again, if the Vardois had been effective threat that they'd unleashed upon the galaxy, and it sort of is, do you know what I mean? They've established themselves in the corridors. So now, you know, we could, like, what's the next episode with the Vardoir, if we continue with them, they're attacking a colony, like we're making 1st contact. We're on a planet and suddenly the Vardwa just appear in the sky and start shooting the place up or something. I mean, even if you don't want the barbwire back because they look like idiotic fannies. Do an episode in series 7 where there's a consequence of this, that you go to a planet that's been destroyed by the Valdbar, you know because they unleashed them. There's dramatic potential in that. Yeah, yeah. Also hope and fear. They've done it all already. This premise is exhausted. Oh, Jerry, that costume is so tight on her, isn't it? It's Spankly, too. It's really sparkly. But yes, it's... But like, do you remember how they accentuated her her form in that Picard episode in a very elegant way? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, rather than he is Jerry. Now she's just a silhouette of a woman. Yeah, yeah, that's right. To be fair, it was the best thing about that last scene, though. Well, yeah, it was just another. there's just one thing I don't understand saying. setting up the hardware. You don't do a tax scene of they'll be back if they're never back. They're not coming back. Yeah. Like, I assumed there were plans. Otherwise, why didn't you remove that scene? Get better at this stuff. 120 fucking episodes. Get better at this. Well, I mean, no one intends to produce a duff episode, and I think, you know, she must have seen that this didn't work, and the makeup looked ridiculous, and they decided not to bring them back. But if they're writing this, it must have occurred to them. They must have had some idea of what they wanted to do with the Vardwir in the next episode, just like they did with the hirogens in hunter's prey and then the killing game, part one and two. They must have had some idea. We've been all over the place in season six. We've done quite a lot of series 6 now. We did Barge of the Dead, which we liked and the Muse, which we liked. Just Muse. Sorry, I get those 2 mixed up all the time. Just news. Yeah. We've done collective that we found very boring. This is just sort of mid, isn't it? Horton of Deck 12, which is like, I can't really get... I can't get a handle on this season, whether it's actually any good or not. Yeah, it just seems to be Voyager doing sort of Voyager things. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Which we like, you know, like, like I said, I thought that the beginning and the end of this episode were really good. I thought the action worked really well. There were some great visuals, but the central problem is that the Vardois looks stupid and they aren't really anything. There's a strong idea. I think that they could have run with but decided not to or for some reason. And so they end up being a bit nothing. And I think it's a premise that can't really land in just 42 minutes as well. And so it ends up all just being a bit nothing. You know, and I always say this when we go to sex because it's the rarest of things. It's the one time where there's a single Star Trek show on the air okay? And Voyager was always considered like top tier and DSNR and the underdog. But I think people knew what was being produced in those later years of DS9 was of a much superior quality of whatever voyager was sort of floundering doing. So this was their chance. A step out of the shadow, you know, and truly make their mark. And I don't think that they did. And I think as we explore 7 as well, they're like killing time seasons, like we've got 2 more seasons of this to churn out, and we'll do some that's really good, and we'll do some that's, well, a lot that's very mid, and we'll put out the old dog as well. Well, it's the end of the episode, and it's time for us to find out where we're going next. This was my choice. Mission accomplished, I have to say. So it's your turn to take us somewhere else, Joe. So what series have you chosen on the randomiser? The whole franchise, as usual. I just love jumping about the place, you know. Excellent. Although this time I'm not choosing the 1st one, wherever he is because we've done that a bit too much lately, you know. All right, fair enough. People are used to us being a bit more indecisive than this. Okay, here we go. Oh, oh no, thank God. Your random Star Trek, the next generation episode is season one. Episode 11, Haven. We can't do more Mrs. Troy. Yeah, we've we've done quite a bit of her lately. We've got a spacer out, you know? Yeah, exactly Let's see what's next then. Oh, I think we've done this one already. Your random lower decks episode is Cupid's errant arrow. Yes. Episode 40. anyone wants to go and listen to that one. It was great fun, wasn't it? It was wonderful. Okay. Okay. Oh, no, we can't do another DS9. Although, it is the one I refer to quite a bit, and you say it stupid. Your random Star Trek, Doosebace 9 episode. season three, episode 14. Heart of Stone. is the one we're here. The Great Crystal. my goodness. No, we'll save that for another day. Oh, no, I'm not doing that one. It's Voyager's tattoo. I'm sorry No, no, that's terrible. Too offensive. Okay. Uh, oh, your random Star Trek Enterprise episode is season two episode 21 The breach. No idea, either. Oh no, it sounds terrible. Come on let's not do that. Okay, one more, one more. Oh, yes. Oh no, what is it? Is it? No, this is the one and I'm gonna sing you a song. Strange New World. Season two, episode nine, subspace Rhapsody. Oh my god. Do you know Straxy World starts again next week? So 2 episodes of series 3 will drop. I've never seen it. I've never seen this. Oh, you've never seen? I've only seen the bit with a Klingons doing their boy band thing. I was like, no. I don't think that's going to be for me, thank you. You know, it's the guy who plays Hammer is the is one of the Klingon boy band. Oh, boy. I mean, a Star Trek musical. Is it loads of songs in it? Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, sounds great. Wow. I think we have to do it. We have to do it. That's going to be a huge, that going to be a huge week. I was actually toying with the idea of watching all of series 2 because it's just 10 episodes. I've watched those old scientists over and over again. And I've seen the Klingon one a couple of times, but oh, yeah, it's really good. seen any of two, you know? So this would be, but this is the one that intrigues both terrifies me the most. The thing is, too, that a little bit like the Buffy musical, it's it's not the Buffy musical, nothing is, but it's, um, it's about what's happening with all of the characters at this point. It's that the usual thing that Star Trek, Strange New Worlds does which is it serialises the character arcs, but the individual episodes tend to be, it's very well charged. And so all of those relationships come to a head in that episode before we have the finale. The best trek first. Plot second. Although it needs to be a good plot as well. All right, I'll do it, but only if I watch it a couple of times and listen to the soundtrack, I can sing some of the songs for the untitled Star Trek Project audience. All right. I'll stand by to edit. You've been listening to entitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford and Nathan Bottomley. We're online at untitled Star Trek Project.com, where you can find subscription links and links to our social media accounts. Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Sisrin, and the theme was composed by Cameron Lamb. This episode was recorded on the 9th of July 2025 and released on the 11th of July. We'll see you next time for Star Trek Strange New Worlds, Subspace Rhapsody. Yeah, I reckon. I don't know where this falls. Probably bit. Yeah. No, this is definitely mid or bad. I don't know. Oh, it's me. It's me. Ha ha. I'm titled... Oh, untitled stream. What's that? What's that? Oh, okay, type the wrong thing. There we are. Okay. Okay. Do you say, oh, bloody hell, it's quarter two. I don't know. Just have enough time to make a coffee and then go again. Yeah. Are you recording a book club or are you just chatting with him? A book club. No, we're doing it great, cool. Okay, cool. It was a good way of getting him to actually finish the bloody thing. you know? Yeah, yeah. All right. All right, it's the end of the episode and it's... 100 and episode 161. You think I'd be able to do it? Well, it's the end of the episode and it's time for us to find out where we're going next.