To the Death

Hey, Joe. Hi. So, we're back on Deep Space 9 this week. Just a couple of weeks after our last visit, but we're in season four, episode 23. So right near the end, and we're watching to the deaf. Now, I really liked this episode the last time we did it when it was called Rox and Shoals. Yes, yes. It is very similar to rocks and shoals, which is better than this. Yes, I think so too. But I thought this was quite solid. It's not the sort of thing necessarily that I want Star Trek to do all that much. And I think if I was watching this at the time and I felt that way. I was in for a few years of kind of disappointment, probably because this is where we go. But this is a pretty crucial episode, I think, in establishing who the Jem Hadah are. And I think it does actually a pretty good job. The one Star Trekie thing about it, I thought, was it's us getting to know and understand the Jem'Hadar and them getting to know us in some way. And I thought all of that was actually quite good. They do a couple of episodes like this. They do the abandoned in series three, which is not long after the Jemadar where Odo gets the Jemadar child and he's trying to teach it to not be a Jemadar and fails. Then you get at the beginning of fall, hippocratic oath, which is a great O'Brien Bashir episode where they fall out because Bashir wants to help these Jem'adar that are withdrawing from the white because they've broken off from the Dominion. And O'Brien's like, no, let them die. And so we get to know them there. There's another examination here and then, like you say, we've done rocks and shoals, which is probably the best examiner certainly in terms of like riveting drama. It's the best examination of the Jemadar there. Yeah, I mean, it's actually very similar, isn't it? Because it's largely about the conflict between the Vorta and the GemHadar, and they're different approaches to kind of the religion because, you know, the Dominion is sort of a religious organisation in all sorts of ways because the gods are running it and it's populated by people who revere them. And so there is that conflict. And I think, I think what's interesting about rocks and shoals is simply that that the vorta wins, that the vorta sends the Jem'Hadar to their deaths, that that doesn't really worry or upset him in any way. He's almost skipping amongst their corpses. That's right. That's right. And they go willingly knowing what they're in for. And so a lot of it is about how they're better than the vorta. And certainly this episode does that as well, that the gemhadara better than the vorta in all sorts of ways, sort of morally, but it doesn't have the sting in the tail of them losing to the vorta. They just kill La Vorta, you know, at the very end. Funny, you should mention the vault up because obviously the 1st appearance of our Jeffrey Coombs, who, you know, we previously saw as the sleazy Tehran in Meridian. And like I said, the end of the last episode, you know, they watched the rushes coming in, saw how good he was. Saw the bit where he got murdered at the end and thought, fucking hell, he's a clone. We're having him back. But thank God he's in this because, like, he is a refreshing element of camp in this very masculine, very match. I mean, I've got to confess something to you. I've started chewing tobacco since watching this. I've got a gun. I started swaggering around my house, sipping whiskey. I mean, all of this stuff about honour and duty and violence and no women and like, it isn't for me. And I said to you, Mike, there is absolutely, you know, wrong Star Trek fans who like that sort of thing. And so I am pleased they're cateable because we do get a lot of camp in it's nine, don't we? We're like, yeah. I think what was bad about it is that you essentially just have one female character. We see Kira at the beginning of the episode for contractual reasons. In a scene that's quite good. I think the setup is very, very good. So she's really good, but she's basically not in it. And so it is just Dax and Dax is currently a woman but hasn't always been one. And so there's that, you know, so she gets to play with the boys but she is the only woman that we that really speaks in the thing. And it's just a little bit exhausting. It's unusual, isn't it? We've just come from Kurtz on Shrek, where we had our, you know, in that Picard episode where we had a whole array of fabulous women in that. And DS9 isn't always like this. We've talked about DS9 and there's a whole load of female guest characters that come in all the time and, you know, Dax and Kira to get a lot. great actresses. They get, yeah, they do get, what I did like about thrusting Dax into all of this testosterone is just how easily she navigates it all. How sort of witty she is and then she gets all of her usual dax asides. But then, of course, she picks up a weapon at the end and she's very adept with that as well. I mean, she's so fucking cold, isn't she? Yeah. I think that she has quite a cool subplot as well with one of the Germadar, which I kind of like. Do you remember the line? Don't worry, you'll make honour. Elder. Yes. She's kicking the shit out of the gym. It's pretty good I think that is pretty good. So we'll get to that. So we have basically 3 Jemhadar who speak and one of them is Clarence Williams the 3rd as a metaclass. Checked how it is IMDb. Man, he has been busy. He's huge. So he was in the mod squad, I think. and he was never not working. And apparently LeVar knew him and it was his idea to cast him. And I think he's great. Like, I think he's properly good. I didn't think it was quite as good as Scott McDonald in Rocks and Shoals because I could sort of tell Arc Clarrence was struggling with the makeup a couple of times. like he looks pissed throughout the entire thing. But I thought he was pretty good. Like even before I knew how famous he was, I was pretty struck by how great he is. We also have the ever reliable Brian Thompson. Yeah, that voice, it's the shapeshifting alien from the X-Files. It's the vampire from the 1st Buffy episode. As soon as he talks, you know exactly who that is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He also the judge as well in a buffy episode. He does 2 buffies. It gets blown up by a flamethrower, doesn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's pretty great. And he has been a Klingon and he has done some other Star Trek and stuff, but he's like big 90s genre guy. And so he's sort of super unmistakeable. And I thought he was pretty good as well. I was quite impressed as well. I don't say this very often with LeVar Burton's direction of this episode. I thought he did some really lovely handheld camera work at the start where they're going through all the wreckage of the station. He shoots a wonderful scene between Odo and Wayoon, where it's entire close-ups, and it's getting closer and closer to Coombs's face, and he just ain't scared of the camera. He's staring right into that lens. And then I thought all the fighting at the end was actually quite for Star Trek at the time. It was quite well done. It sort of comes in quickly. It's lots of rapid shots. I think LeVar on the side of... What do we say when it's lacking a bit of pace. It can be a little stately sometimes when he's directing. But I think he's in tune with what they're trying to do with this episode. He knows when to give focus to the actors and he knows when, like even just when the Jemadar appear on the pad in, there's a wonderful framing shot of all of them on the, you know, like they do. And then Wayoon sort of comes out from behind. Just hearing... Excuse me, I'm the one who's going to talk to him. Thank you. And he's totally dwarfed by a lot of them. thought he did a good job. Yeah. So I did read the memory alpha page and apparently it was originally much more violent and they shot more of the fight scene at the end and a lot of it ended up on the cutting room floor. And I think the instinct to be less violent is the right one in Star Trek, unless they're going to go and do it properly, which they never are, not in the... The hell did they do? Do they have entrails? No, nothing across the gateway? Just a lot more deaths and a lot more killing and stuff. I mean, like that stuff's okay, but I did have reservations about why we were on this mission at all, and because I think that if the Jem'Hadar were to say, no, we're not going to serve the founders anymore, then that's fair and right. And a meta clan might think that's bad and that they need to be hunted down, but we certainly shouldn't think that. And, you know, I know that we're there to destroy the Iconian gateway or whatever. But it did seem like there should have been some discussion about whether it was okay to go and kill all of those Jem'Hadar. I think the way you, in a wonderful scene was just, hey, whenever Avery Brooks and Jeffrey Cumins get a scene together, it's gold. He does stress that, you know, what if they put a 1000000 Gemadar soldiers on all those federation worlds. So I think that's the reason why we're going after them. So the Iconian Gateway thing is the thing that makes it work morally. But in an ordinary situation, I guess, maybe that's what Hippocratic oath is kind of doing, that if Jem'adar wanted to throw off their kind of dominion oppressors, we as Starfleet should be there kind of helping them, I think. It's where Ross and Shoals does this better because there is a huge debate as to whether they should actually execute those Gemadara at the end. And do you remember Garak's there going, you know, humans have rules in war, which means you, you know, you're less efficient than you could be. And Cisco goes, look, this isn't a debate. Like everyone ships in with their reasons, but enough people are saying, no, we shouldn't do this. And no one's saying that here, are they? No, no. So it's a little bit like, I don't know that rocks and shoals is hugely morally complex, but it's certainly more complex than this. And this is a sort of jolly adventure tale. And that's fine. Like Star Trek can absolutely do that. And what it brings to the table, though, is the cultural stuff which I just thought was really great and was just scene after scene of people with incompatible world views talking to one another. And some of that was very interesting and some of it was even funny. So I was on board. I mean, I hope I've got something to say in the episode, but I've got 3 more very quick things to say, because my 3 favourite things about this was one, I think, because it leans into Odo's journey throughout the series. That, for me, might be my favourite sort of character through line throughout the entire series, a wonderful scene where Wei Yun says do you want to come back because they are waiting for you? And he's like, no, no, I'm not coming back. I just want to end this conversation. Is that the 1st time we hear that? What, that he's welcome back? That, that he might want to go back? That he's welcome back. They want him back. Or do you hear that in the search? No, it's that two-parter in serious free. Do you remember when Garak interrogated him? He goes, I want to go home. He's like, yeah, but it's all flaky and horrible. So we know he wants to, but then we're just about to have the finale where he's punished for murdering one of his own kind of the industry. It's just such a great journey that Odo goes on and I think where it ends up is pretty cool as well. So I like that that's in here. Two, I just think the structure of this is really good. The fact that we have like an exciting opening and then we do like the hustle style right. This is how we're going to do the heist to get the Iconian Gateway and then, of course, they land and it all goes horribly wrong. Like every episode of Hustle. So I just thought the structure of the piece was really, really good. And the 3rd thing is, I mean, Jeffrey Coombs. Just Jeffrey Coombs, who it is really, really funny. He's really charismatic. He's a bit creepy. as well. And you can absolutely see why as soon as they set their eyes on him in this role that they said, right, semi-regular and then come the last series, almost a regular. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He is pretty great I love how memory alpha calls him like kind of ret consume as Wayon 4 because of course he wasn't that in the episode at all. He was just Waoon. And he is better than Keevan in Rocks and Shoals, but Keevan is also brilliant in a different way, I think. I think the only water that ever manages to come close to toppling him is that woman attacking the wind. Do you remember that camp one? And even better when Kira was playing her again. We meet 22 water women and they don't really run with it, which is a shame because, you know, we need more great camp women. Look at how I win in Star Trek. Well, do you fancy sort of becoming a man for 45 minutes? Oh my god. I can smell the testosterone already. I am going to count us in in that case. Five, four, three, two, one, and we're off. Okay, right, establish the defiant. Yes. Where we do spend a lot of the episode. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's funny actually, isn't it? Because, okay, we're heading back to Deep Space 9. I mean, I kind of like this. Now, what is happening here? Oh. Oh, what's this? This is super interesting. So I hadn't really thought about this after watching the episode through, but here is Dax talking about her past life when she's a woman and has a baby and the baby crawls into bed with her and it's absolutely kind of like a female thing and we're about to kind of see her be surrounded by men. And then this thing about sitting in wharf's chair. It doesn't quite go how you think it's gonna go, I think. No, but I am absolutely that person that has my chair in the canteen. All right? Oh, no. That's terrible. I like the one in the corner where you can see the whole room. You can see everyone who's coming and going and you can just about hear the gots from every table, you know? So I get it. I don't often empathise with warf, but I get it. Do you notice he went straight for the prune juice? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, geez, Nate, he must be so regularly about stuff he drinks. Look at the look. I know. But it doesn't quite go how you think. Do you know what I mean? Because he just keeps himself the same, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But again, in an episode that's going to be about masculinity in an episode in which Worf gets challenged a couple of times. Um, you know, it is a thing, I think. Oh, this shot's amazing. What, of the upper pylon? Yeah, I know. I do remember seeing a review at the time where they went, one of the upper pylons was blown up and they deal with it in 5 minutes. Are you for real? It's a great inn. It's a great inn. No, the state Akira's arm. I know, I know. I know. Oh, here's contractual obligation, Quark. Has anyone seen my brother, Rom? I actually really like this scene, actually, too. Like, he's really, really worried about ROM. And then, of course, it turns on its head. That would be nice to him. Has anyone seen Nathan? He's over there. Oh, I'm going to fucking kill him when I see him. But here's properly concerned for him, you know, like he's worried about how he feels. There was a wonderful bit of direction there where Kira's given the report of everything that's going on, and then Lavar just takes the camera away from her to Bashir dealing with somebody, but you can still hear her talking. So there's just lots of chaos, you know, well, I mean. It's a tiny corridor. Over 100 wounded, apparently. We could only say three, three. Yeah, that's right. Excuse me, they have bothered to put a girder on the floor though. I have done that and they've set these lights to flash, so... I like how quick this is. It's like, right, let's get after them. And then they're on the divine and gone. I think it's good. I think it's really. Yep. And there's a proper scale. Sorry. I was just going to say, I really don't like her series 4 here. Yeah. One, see, one thing is because these are all physical models, you can't distress them. You know, remember when the NXO one was all trashed in series three. Oh, of Enterprise. You can't do that here because it's an actual physical model. And they've only just learned to do that CG thing, which is what they did with that. What do you think they did then? They just built an extra pile and blew it up. No, no, no. They painted it out of the computer afterwards. It's really great. Because you can see it's sort of floating. Yeah, yeah, yeah. it's pretty good It's not quite as good as what would happen now. Because it will be now. This is 30 years old this episode, just bad. I think I just saw Spock there in the dust from that meteor. I don't really. I don't. Oh my god. So that's it, right? With bangs straight in and we're promising an action exciting we're chasing the Jemadar. Yeah, yeah. Yes. So, and, like, I think, I think they do quite a good job with the Jem'Hadar. So in that episode. It's the finale of season two, is it? Yeah, called the Jemadar. And they introduced the Germadar, and they introduced the Vorta and that's all we know about the Dominion at this point, or what is it? Um, they take our the Bajoran colony, which is on the other side of the station. They basically say if you come back into the Gamma Quadrant, where Lavia. And that's the threat at the end of the episode. I'm paraphrasing. You get what I mean? Yeah. I would love it if they said, well, have you? But that's very English. Oh, look, this O'Brien, look, flying through space with his bit of he's repairing the upper pile on there, look. Yeah, yeah, yeah, there you go. It's never been more appropriate, that one special effect shot. Do you think the other one is that grumpy lady from The Forsaken in the gray universe? Tesco. Yeah. No, not Tesco. She's an ambassador. The grumpy lady who O'Brien was delivering all this, all the exposition to. Oh, God, what was her name? The Petron woman. Yeah, yeah, not Nila. She was the evil one that tried to kill Pryal. So much happens on this station, honestly. I am pleased, though, that the bulk is on defiant sets. I do like the defiance sets. I like how cramp they are. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and the colour thing, like, it's still mostly that brown colour that the station has as well. So it still feels of a piece. Yeah, it's tiny, that bridge is so small. admitted a magneton pulse to hire trace of your whereabouts? Yeah, pretty much all the time. Why? you up to? Of, you know, just some light adultery, usually. So I thought Avery delivered that line about standing guard over the station 26 hours a day as if it was meant to be an exaggeration, like a rhetorical exaggeration, that they were going to be so on all the time that they would be there 26 hours a day. But of course, it's not that. It is that Bajor has long days, right? It, absolutely. And there is a long running thing about 4 shift rotations on Twitter, but I just get so bored here in the administration on don't want to know. Yeah. Well, you know, the administration at my own work is boring enough. I don't need to hear about this. This is another good twist, though, isn't it? Because we think we're going after the Gem'adar, and then there's a damage, Gem'adar. the hell's going on? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And it's about to explode. And so, of course, we rescue them because of course, we do. Oh, I love all these, you know, soldiers going down the corridor there, over their shoulders. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a it's a pretty good shot too. Yeah, I think LaFar's doing a pretty good job of this. But he feels this tiny set full of people. So there's what, one, two, three, four, five, 6 security offices plus the free regulars. And then I think 6 Gemadar beam in and way. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, come on, I'm going to spend all my money on latex this week. Like, where it's completely hidden, isn't he? Like, you don't even know that he's there. Look at that smug look on Brian Thompson's face. You just called mistaken, okay? There was a moment a 2nd ago, right? where O'Brien said to Wolf, because Wolf goes, put in the defiant on guard duty would be a waste of resources. And Bryce says, well, you wouldn't say that if you had family on the station. I just like those little bikes and get on DS9 that you don't really, you're Voyager. Hello? No. Oh, here he is. And he's so oily, isn't he? He's so smarmy. It's wonderful. He's so good. I don't trust him for a second, but actually, his motives are honourable in this, aren't they? everything he says is true. Yeah, yeah. The thing, I think that the thing that we don't like him, that makes us not like him more than anything else, he's disregard for the Jem'Hadar. Not like him. Don't you like Wayoon? I think he's. Oh, no, no, but why he's a bad guy. He's bad because he's rude about the Jem'Hadar. Oh, he's so... Look at him. Leaning forward to her little knot. You know, Nathan, I probably know things about you. You don't know about yourself, you know. Isn't he about to offer him sort of rule like you could rule the galaxy alongside us or whatever? Absolute ruler of the Federation. That's it. That's it. Do you know the bit and call to arms? Do you remember that bit between Cisco and where um where is going oh, all those children on Cardassia that we helped save? They were starving on the streets and sisters going, oh God, well don't worry, we won't attack them. We won't put up the minefield and then it cuts to the next scene. Right, get that minefield going quickly. It's great. Hey, the way he delivers his line because he gets quite complicated speeches to say. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it just, it's so fluidic the way it's really good. He is probably good. And they, yes, he is particularly wordy compared to them as well. I mean, that's one of the reasons why he's less masculine than them. You know, he never stops talking. He's sort of camp and obsequious, all of that sort of thing. Yeah. Now, the makeup. Yes, I know. I know it's flaking, and unfortunately, when we get those close ups later, um, it is extremely apparent how much it's flaking. Yeah, I've, yeah. I mean, I'm not super sold on the design and I think the hair looks stupid and I think, you know, like it's all a little bit unfortunate. But it's kind of what they go with. At this point, Nathan, I'm just used to ridiculous looking aliens you know? Have we had the Beaumar yet? No, they're coming in 2 years time. So what I think, though, is that Odo's makeup is much worse in series 4 than it was in series one. And the close-ups are not kind to him in this episode. They put more layers on him. He's closer to his skin in series one. That's right. So they've built up his face and his eyes are in a sort of sunken pit of latex and as a result, the latex doesn't join properly. He looks like a sort of 70s Doctor Who monster where he's got like his face visible under the mask. He did say in the Forsaken. He doesn't do faces very well. But he's gotten worse at doing them. Yeah, I just think it's a bad idea. It was always a dumb idea. I think, to put Renee in that makeup, but they just make it worse and worse rather than making it more and more subtle, I think, or just like just less impactful. It's ridiculous I really think you do get a sense of the stakes in this episode. He basically says, you know, these Jemadar, if they can reproduce our projections are that they could take over the Dominion. It's all world, world payroll. But you know, we've already seen the impact of what the Dominion can do in various episodes and the Jem'adar. Like there's that episode in series 2 shadow play with the hologramatic city where they completely destroy the city and the man recreated it as a hologram because he's the only one that survived. The quickening, which is a virus that they introduce into the people. they all started dying out. So we do understand that if they gain control of a piece of technology this powerful, it's bad news. So this, I think, is interesting, this beer, right? So when what Cisco says is that the Germadar obey you because they're addicted to white. Oh, they're because they're genetically engineered to believe that the founders are gods and to obey them. And of course, they're addicted to wine. And that's why they obey. And in fact, we learn from a meta clan that that's not why they obey at all that that stuff wasn't necessary. They obey because they're honourable people in some sense. Do you know what I mean? Like they have a proper ethic and they're loyal and they do what they're told. And so they're contrasted with Wayoon, who still is doing what he's told in his own way, but doesn't respect them, I think. Again, it's more interesting in rocks and shoals because there's literally one vial of white to go around all those Gemadar and they're all suffering from withdrawal. And there's no reason for them to go through with their sort of suicide mission and they still do it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just think Ron Moore sort of took, mate, you might have looked at this and gone, do you know what? If I could just put this into a more engaging situation. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I think this situation is fun. I think the other one is pretty bleak and it has a pretty good ending. But you sort of look at, though. Do you remember all that location working? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, that was pretty good. Yeah, look at this makeup. Look at his eyes. Like the makeup isn't sticking to an AC. I've never stopped going on about, you know, when he tore that mask off at the end of the series 6. he wasn't sure whether they were coming back for 7 at this point and so there you go, fucking have it. Whereas whereas Michael is wearing the latex with a plom. He's, uh, what I think it shows, though, is just how good Renee is because he's still manages to remote through Hill, you know? Yeah, absolutely. But you are right. Remember when we watched Far Beyond the Stars, and he was just an actor. Yeah, it's incredible. See, this banter is actually funny, isn't it? You know, like there's going to be canapes in the lounge, you know I forgot my address uniform. Like, that's actually quite funny banter, and it's playing against just how incredibly serious and dull Gemadara, you know, like, um and I kind of like that. I think that worked well. You know, you sent me a picture, but I did go looking as well. Yeah. Clarence Williams is such a beautiful man. How could they make him look like this? I think you can still tell. You know, like, I mean, you've got to squint a bit. I think he's probably hard. Cracked skin, bones coming out of his head. I mean come on. Well, no, I know, but you've got his eyes and his mouth, you know and that's sometimes enough. He does. It looks like he might be a good kisser, you know. Yes. I also think there's one scene where he tears up after he kills Brian Thompson's character. Oh, I figured that was just the makeup. I don't think it is. I don't think it is. I think it's a really strange choice and I think it's super effective in that scene. Do you know, I've just thought of another... It's a really good thread sort of examined in the Gemini. Do you remember in the 2 parter when Warf and Martok are fighting in that ring? And the Gemadar there said, I yield. You know, he's an honourable man. That's another good thing. No, he says, all I can do is kill him. I can't make him yield. All I can do is kill him. Doesn't interest me. holds my interest, he says. Yeah. Yeah. It's a theme, isn't it, that the gemadar are more honourable than the vorta? Because the voice is cowardly. even though I do like the episode and I know you're less keen. It's far less interesting in the siege of AR 558 because they're just ruthless killers in that, aren't they? We only see from the point of view of the Federation camp with them coming. Yes, yeah, yeah. But you never have scenes with them talking or anything like that. They just come in with garlands. I mean, Nathan, I remember when they 1st appeared in when they were in the search, they attack the Defiant and they go all out on like a 5 minute action scene where they're kicking the shit out of every regular. really wanted you to feel the impact of how powerful they are. Yeah, I think they do a good job. I think they're good. I think they're interesting, you know. You know how we had, you know, the Zindi just developed in one season and trying to make them interesting and have interrelationships between each other. Whereas this is just so skilfully done in just a handful of episodes across a few years. I'm very pleased that somebody said, well, can't we just bomb it from orbit, for God's sakes. But the excuse as to why they go, oh, unfortunately, the structure is made from neutronium. It's the most Star Trek substance ever. Normally they're putting in line, so we don't have to do action sequence. Now they're making excuses, so we do. Look at why you with his hands together. It's like... Yeah, it's strange. You remember when I said to you that Coombe said in that big interview with the Enterprise cast? You know, I'd done my time. I've done a lot of work for you. Good work and I, you know what? You see it in every DS9 episode, don't you? Like, he's playing every scene brilliantly. So extra points here for Avery's line of dialogue, which has the word zigurat in it, like that's pretty great. Don't hear that often enough to it in Star Trek. He will say amen later as well. Does he? Yeah, yeah. These 2 Gemadar. They start gossiping with each other. He goes, you know what? I told you that the Klingons were a bit rubbish. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So here's Brian Thompson doing his hero moment. You might remember me from Buffy Wolf, right? Twice. And I had an ice pick in the X-Files. I was Julian Anson in one episode. All right. Yeah, this stuff is all sort of bullshit, isn't it, really? Oh, no, I've killed mine. You killed your blah, blah, blah. whatever. No, let's get to the, you know, the, although it was more fun in batter, bing, batter, bang, you know, when they did this. Yeah, it was far more fun in that. But I do like that we're tricked into thinking, okay, we're already in there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Although the Zigurat does look remarkably like the sets of the Defiant, doesn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I actually think the sets in the cigarette are actually pretty well designed. They are pretty good. They're quite big, aren't they? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Unlike these sets here in the defiant. But is supposed to be a submarine, isn't it? Isn't that the idea? Here's what I think is great. We came back from the ad break and I suddenly had no fucking idea what was going on in this scene. So it's a it's a drill, isn't it? It's a simulation. They're just practising getting in, but it's, I just thought, oh they've turned against them suddenly or something, and now we're fighting each other, and we'll find out why later. If you gave me a pound for every single time, we did one of these simulations where someone cocks it up and then someone walks in and goes, well, you're going to have to try that again. You're all dead, yeah. I'd have enough to buy that fresh old Tom Paris figure, you know. Easily a couple of 100 quid. They do it quite a bit, didn't they? But I had no idea what was going on. I had seen this before, but I just didn't remember. Look at Clara's. Very, very unimpressive, you federation people. Yeah. Oh, look, and Worf, every time Worf sort of criticised. he's the wor- he's very prissy, isn't he? He's like, excuse me. I'm a warrior, all right. Yeah, yeah, shut up. were doing the right thing. Oh, I did like this line though, Rico goes, oh, for God, they're hopeless. If they're gonna, if they want to survive over victory, then they have got a hope. Well, that's it. Like, O'Brien just doesn't even think of it. It's just like, yeah, no, we're not we're not blowing it up until we leave. I'm sorry, but we're just not doing that. Column delivers our stuff. You want us to blow it up while we're still inside. Yeah, but, like, again, like, I think I, because we we see both of them give it sort of pep talk. So, aren't we? We see the Germadar give their pep talk saying we're currently all dead and we are going to get our lives back by fighting for victory. That's how we get our life back. And hence victory is life, which is they're saying. And I thought that was pretty good. And then the humans kind of mock it. and say their version, which I think is good as well. I thought this scene in the lift was really well durated because it feels cramped. It's an awkward conversation where they're giving very disparate point of views. Um, and I like the lighting in this scene as well. I don't know, it just felt a little bit more dynamic than just going up in the lift. Yeah, I'm interested in Coombs's makeup because it's basically his skin colour. It's not that white at all that it normally is, is it? I don't know why that's happening. Go back to him there. Yeah, he's quite pink, isn't he? Yeah, yeah. It's an early makeup thing or it's just the way it's lit. Oh, this is the bit as well, where he says, whiskey. We know about the gateway. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's really interesting. That's super interesting. Yeah. And so everyone gets to say their piece. You know, like it is very talky, but it's people talking about how they differ in that outlook on things. Um, This isn't going to be a suicide mission, says Cisco. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. In fact, Ramirez, few people die, don't they? Well, some people do though. We just can't even say, oh, we never mind that. We'll shoot them off in a torpedo. Yeah. We'll never talk about them. Yeah, I mean, that was the thing about AR 558, wasn't it? was that these were all our regulars and so we know they weren't going to be killed. And so in an episode where they're having to stand... They blew off Nok's leg. yeah that's true. That is true. That's that's something. And deal with it as well. My God. Consequences in Star Trek. What a revelation. I've seen, I really like. Is this where he says, there are no Gemhadar women. Yeah, but what I really like is this guy is like the sort of weird deepshit... with the kind of brown head and he's staring at it. He's staring at Terry, which is really funny. He's a stupid Dalek, isn't he? But he's got quite great teeth and stuff. Like I think he's actually pretty good. Why are you admiring these gematology? What is wrong with you? No, no, no. No, I meant good like monster alien teeth. I think he's really good because this is him. This is because we already know about the the child thing, right? We already know that like, because he's going to say that they're eight, that he's eight, right? like in a minute and that he doesn't expect to live to 20 because hardly anyone does or no one lives to 30. You know, hardly anyone lives to 20. He's eight. He doesn't sleep, he doesn't eat. None of that is known to Dax at this point, even though we know it from the abandoned. Yeah? The funniest thing, though, is when he leans in and says to her how old are you then? Yeah, no, but he says, you look good. Oh, you know, you don't look at it. You don't know, thank you. We don't necessarily fun. It's really cute. Ducks then goes off, you know, gossipy Ducks and goes, oh, I've just struck up a great friendship with one of the Gemma dolls. He's a great laugh. The thing that I really liked is the scene later on in the battle where she calls him by name and says, like she actually names him Veracara. Not a lot, but there's some common ground. No, I like it. I thought that was good. They connect. Look at his reaction. Wait, he says, you know, look, he's quite shocked. And then she's... I'm really jealous. You know, I could do without sleeping as well. Imagine that productive I'd be. A wharf. What's the point of going into battle if you don't savour the fruits of your victory? That's great. I think that's really good. And that's a real proper difference. Do you know what I mean? Because basically, you know, like all of these aliens who just want war and battle and honour and stuff is kind of boring. But the thing that he likes is when the paddle's over and then he can get pissed, you know. That's a great line. What about the women? There you go, Phil. They're the mothers of our children and Dax goes, yeah, they're a lot of fun at parties as well. But he agrees. agrees with that. You are right. I didn't quite realise when watching this. There are lots of different points of view. Yes, aren't they? And that is far more interesting than an episode just running with a theme and everyone going with it. Yeah. Yeah, no, I think that's, but that's the theme, isn't it? You know, we have these just disparate points of view about things and it's not just between us and the Dominion. It's also between the Vorta and the Jem'Hadar as well. And this bit here where they come in and ask, it's so demeaning, so there, isn't it? And then he's eating his dinner and then he sort of dabs his mouth and then just says it like, oh, further to clan, do you pleasure alluded to the dominion? Yeah, half-assed. No, it's really, really disrespectful. They, like, you know, they're not just doing it because they're they're hanging out. Do you know what I mean? They're coming down. It's a religious ritual for them, right? And he's utterly dismissive of it. Like he just doesn't give a shit. the way she says, oh, may it keep you strong? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, it just sort of has. But do you remember in, again, I'm going to keep making embarrassments to rocks and shoals when Keyvan went, may it keep you strong? Yeah, he just tosses it off because he doesn't give a shit. And they, it is a proper ritual. Like we see it happen several times, don't we? Oh, across the run. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's a strong idea, isn't it, as well? The drug addiction. Well, it is in the 1st episode of Star Trek, the Next Generation. Yes, but we were handling things like drug addiction very badly about that. But don't you remember John DeLancey? like Hugh appears as a sort of 21st century? They sort of sniffing those things out of the thing? Yeah. Oh, do you remember later on in the say, just say no, Wesley drugs. Oh, so we get another. this is another one of those things now where I was just a bit like, oh, can we just get to the fire now? Yeah, yeah. This is just sort of bound to happen. It is kind of a little bit tedious. And this bit was quite badly directed, I thought. I don't think there's room in these sets. Great action. That's the problem. I do think that's the problem. Look at everyone. They're just sort of all tough. And now we've cleared that part of the room so that they can fall over and all of that. Oh boy, when Avery Brooks comes in shouting, I get all hot and bothered. Sorry, he's going to murder Brian Thompson now, isn't he? Did you see him coming and just push that guy over like he pushed the Starfleet guy out of the way? That's it. does he snap his neck? He does, doesn't he? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And apparently they had to take the sound off. Oh, for fuck's sake. What wimps they were back then. I mean, there is, well, we watched Empoc Nore, there was Bone. There was a neck snapping noise in that. That was only a year later. Do you think Lavar chickened out or Rick? No, no, no, no. It's all on the memory alpha page. Like the VAR wanted it to be more violent and it probably should have been in a sense, although I'm tend to be on the side of the people, like if they're not going to be proper, then why do it? If it was just going to be like a load of laborious action though. I don't know. I quite like how snappy those edits are. If that's them taking out lots of bits. It makes it more dynamic as a result. Yeah, so this again, look, these are just 2 men who have completely different ideas. He's about to cry. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, and I think that's actually it because he's saying he was my second. I have known him for years, 3 years. Three years. Do you know what I mean? Like, that's like a 3rd of his life. I valued him. Um, And notice that Avery, like the Cisco can't make eye contact with him when he says you have a funny way of showing it. And this, I place the good of the unit over my personal feelings but he is acting, he's showing us that his personal feelings are really there. Do you think they're, like, post what you leave behind because there's a lot of Jem'Adar still about. Is there redemption for the Jemadar, but that's possible. We've never mentioned them again, have we? We've seen it. No, Kurtz Metret never really went there, did they? No, they've done the Dominion a couple of times, but the founders anyway, but they haven't... I'd love to see an update your Gem at all. See what that looks like. But maybe they don't exist 900 years in the future because they're not being forced grown anymore. Yeah. Yeah, I thought he was really properly good. And it is, it is like, I love this scene. Oh, may I speak to you for a moment? And again, do you know what I mean? Like, again, this, where, like, what struck me, fuck that makeup is bad. What struck me was, um, Like, it's coming off. It's not sticking on. Do you know what I mean? Like, I don't know what Michael Westmore's doing, but he's had a bad morning this morning and the, you know, like, he's just not sticking the makeup on. I, you know what? It says something to the performances on the right in here that I did. I wasn't even noticing that. was just in the scene. Yeah. What, what, what I think is good is this is the point where I thought they know what's going to happen at the end, they know where this is going. photo. Yeah. Yeah. Because it's amazing how late this is. Like, this is season four, episode 23. There's 3 years of this show to go. It's almost impossible to imagine Deep Space 9. You just think, oh, you mean Weune's not in it until like more than halfway through. He doesn't come back again until towards the end of 5 in the Kira episode. Ties of blood and water. It's like series 5, episode 20 or something like that. And then his 3rd episode is one we both love, where he meets Kai Wynn. J.K. Nog episode. So it's only really the last 2 seasons that he's in. So in fact, he made that impact with 40 odd episodes. I just love as well where he sort of whispers, you know. Your people still love you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, look at the camera now. right in his face. Yeah. Yeah. But I am ready to end this conversation. And then, look, you could see the disappointment, but he still respects him and just goes, then it's over. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just great acting. And you don't, I know, I know the makeup. I know, but sometimes you just need a camera and 2 good actors. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and you're right. LeVar just kind of lets their performances be the focus. Yeah, oh, I love you, Jeffrey Combs. He's so good. I couldn't see much of what was happening with you, Renee, but I'd love it. Sorry. I mean, you did see before the way that the eye sockets aren't connected to his face. Yeah, and he was sort of in the half dark there as well. So that's a help I would. Oh, this is a running sort of joke that he writes these messages to Keiko. Do you know? But what was really funny? So we have that whole speech about how he's doing it and how she would feel about it. You know, and Dax goes, oh, wouldn't it be romantic or something? wouldn't she appreciate it? And Miles goes, no, she'd be horrified. And that's absolutely right. But then... But then Dax sends the same message to her mother and like just Dax as a mother. Like... It's obviously Jazeer's mother. Well, I don't know, maybe maybe it is. Maybe it is Dax's mother who's on her 10th, you know, body or whatever. Um, but it's so funny. Like I just think that's adorable. It's good banter, isn't it? And and this foreshadows the same banter with Veracara in the final scene, where she says you're going to die at 140 surrounded by, you know, people who love you. And so that's all that matters. And then she says the same thing to him. You'll die at the age of 20, you know, an honoured elder and stuff. The message to my mother. I just think it's great. And you walked around Eastbourne Town Centre, didn't you, when you came to visit? Obviously I gave you a pepper spray, but you did walk around. You know how dangerous it is. So every time I go to world, you don't know this, but I'll write you a letter. Just in case, I don't make it. It's come to my attention that 1st I met a clan has threatened to get wharf, do not go sucking up to Cisco, all right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's mad at you and rightly so. He goes, don't you worry. If he kills you, I'll kill him. All right? I think that's so funny he will not live to boast about it. And he says, not a savoury show? That's Wolf's way of saying it, I care about you. That's very reassuring. That's very reassuring, Mr. Warp. Bloody hell. There is only 9 minutes left of this. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's absolutely skip, boy. Oh, dude. I do just love being with these people though. But it has been them standing around talking, right? Yeah, we had a tiny bit of, well, after the action at the start and we get a bit of action in a minute. Otherwise, it's our standard stock sets, lots of talk. Yeah, but like I said, I thought that the talk was interesting because it is giving the Jem'Hadar the chance to be characters for the 1st time. Is that right? It's unusual. one of the 1st times. Yeah. It's unusual for Star Trek to take something like the Dominion. you know, a 3 tiered hierarchy, alien race. and explore it over what? Six, 7 years? No, 5 years. In such depth, though, you know? and keep coming back to the will in different ways. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's kind of refreshing By the end of the series, it's an incredibly well-defined, but the Dominion is probably better to find than the fucking Federation. Yeah, so this speech. I am 1st a metal car, a metlican. Is that how you say it? A metaclon. And we're dead. And look at the image too, where you've got the Federation people on one side and the Jemadar on the other side, in the long shot. They're all standing next to each other looking completely different from one another. So how this is being show, isn't it? And the reason that victory is life is we just assume that we are dead and if we win, then we get to be alive again. And that's... Because I'm a massive con air, but I did laugh when he went, my name's Miles O'Brien and I planned to stay alive, okay? That's us. Do you know what I mean? That's why we're different from them, you know, like, and that's a pretty good summary of it. You know, it's the same thing before. Like, yeah, we're not setting the bombs and then just sitting here waiting for them to explode. We're only detonating the bombs if we're in another room, right? Again, did you see Wyun's face when he's given the speech, a metaclown? He just looks so bored. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He just doesn't give a shit. How many times do I have to listen to this every time we go into bowel? I mean, oh, Nathan and I have this long-standing argument about these phaser rifles. So he thinks they're made of balls. I made a fucking balsam wood. and that was all I was thinking of. They're quite chunky. They're so shit. Voyager are better. We are outside shooting up trees now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Where are we in Southern California, somewhere in Southern California. Pretty though, isn't it? Nice little forest glen. Yeah, it was a good choice, and it's nice to go outside for once but it is a massive thing because they've got heaps of, there goes poor old someone and Ramirez. The horror, Nathan, they say, every time they went on and did a DS9 location shoot, because it's always sunny. think of it. Rocks and Shoals. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The picnic in Times Orphan, they have searing heat. And of course, how many people in latex here? Yeah, yeah. Those, that thing where they appear, you know, like the weird shape, you know, they're invisible and then they kind of appear. I think it looks amazing. That's really great. I don't know what's going on with this ziggerat. Like, what is that? I can't even tell where to join. But it's quite well done. But I don't think it can be. I don't know. I don't know. These close-ups now are in the studio. I don't think that's there, is it? But I don't know. I don't know. It is pretty incredible. Like, how are they letting it in? It's behind. You know, the Gemada, those big swords with the sort of big knife at the end. The way they, they sort of throw them into people's necks and then slice. Yeah, you see, I wonder whether that was absolutely necessary. Do you know what I mean? Like, like, why are we doing that? Just to make it more wild. A wise man once said, you know, if you're going to show violence you should show that it hurts. Yeah, I suppose. But they don't even do that. You know, like if they were shooting them with like, yeah, they all just... It's hour over. Jay Chatterway. Is he scoring this one? I don't know. I didn't check actually. The music are in this bit. There was a sort of nice bit of underscoring going on as they were sort of going about the ziggurat. Yeah, that guy's going to be dead. I do really like these these sets, though. Lovely carpet, though, in the cigarette. Did you... Did you notice? How the Germadal there came straight towards the camera. Oz. He literally attacked us. I do like a bit of that. Do you remember that, Gemadar did that? He punched Garak in the face, but he punched the camera. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was quite nice. Yeah, actually I can see some edits, I think. where you just suddenly cut to a reaction shop. But, you know, there's some blood, you know, there's some blood there's some bodies Yeah, oh, no, this effect with Odo. Good grief. It's really rough, isn't it? It's super rough. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Imagine how great that would be. Yeah, yeah. Well, we've seen it. It would have looked like raw chicken. Yeah, very unpleasant. There we go now. right, we're going to see the gateway in a 2nd now. We need to try and name the planets that we see, all right? Let's be quick. Age of one, Bajor. The Federation. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Bajor again. Oh, I think that's the one from... Devil's Jew. The Devil's Jew planet. Silicon Avatar. That was just a golf course. I just saw Paris for Willow. Paris. yeah Imagine if a 1000000 Jem'dar soldiers landed in Paris. So the thing, the weird thing is, right, that I just assumed Iconian Gateways were in all the time, but they've only been in it twice. yeah Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's another, who are the, who are the people from, is it lonely among us? They have a gay Monday. Is there a gateway? And the Anticans. I don't think so. So what's the one I'm thinking of? The last outpost. Oh, oh, that old man with the staff at the end. But they had gateways as well, didn't they? I mean, we get a bit bored of just going from A to B in a spaceship. How nice if they had one of these. We could get straight to the planets and get going. Yeah, yeah. And again, there seems to just be this standing federation thing where we have to destroy them. Like, I actually love the idea that 200,000 years ago. Like the Dominion's been going for 2000 years, we discover here. But 200,000 years ago. The Iconians just travelled from place to place in these using these gateways. And that's kind of super weird and interesting. You know, the galaxy was wildly different from how it is now. Um, I don't know. Now, now you can just hear Ira. LaVar, you you killed Jeffrey. What are you doing? It was Clarence. It was Clarence's idea. Ask for questioning our loyalty. All right. Yeah. Yeah, okay. I mean, I do like this at the end where they've all got their weapons, and suddenly... They just kill one another. No, but there's a tension, though, that they might just for a second. Everyone's sort of holding their guns. But like I actually think shooting the vorder doesn't work. Like, why would he do that? Like, it doesn't make sense that he would do that. And do you know what I mean? Like, just to get him out of the way. Yeah, yeah. Well, maybe they felt we needed to see him suffer because of how appalling he was earlier in the episode. But it just doesn't make sense. And that's why rocks and shoals is better than this because... I do always love that sort of predator effect. I don't vanish. It looks undergrowved. I could see a tear in Clarence's eye there, but I think that might have been the weather. might be the makeup. But I definitely think that I definitely think that he was deliberately playing that in that in that scene before. Yeah, and then they go, we're back. We're out. That's like a nice self-contained story. It just doesn't hang around, really, does it? It starts quick. It ends quick and in the middle it's talking about the nuts and bolts of the story. Yeah. Well, yeah, no. And but it's even even it's not the story so much, it is just these are groups of people that all have different ethics in a way that sort of kind of interesting. Um, but, like, this show does kind of valorize the Germadar in a way. You know, the Germadar are more moral than the vorta. And this group of Jem'Hadar, who haven't rebelled against the founders, are in some way more moral than the ones who did. And I think that that's actually sort of a problem. Think when we eventually do Hippocratic oath, you might find that one really interesting. Right. Um, because again, it's another great guest turn as the lead Gemadar. But there's there's the 2 sides to the to the argument, both on the Gemadar side. They just want to kill the Federation people and obviously O'Brien wants to let the Gem'adar die. Yeah, it's quite uncomfortable in places as well because it pushes O'Brien and Bashir into a position where Bashir has to use his authority... Step on O'Brien. You'll just do what you're told. I remember watching it going, oh, this is a bit different, you know. How late's that? Hippocratic, if that's earlier on. That's at the start of series 4. Yeah, it's the 2nd episode. The 3rd episode, after the visitor, they do Way of the Warrior, the visitor, Hitocratic Cove. I mean, like 4 is a justly celebrated season of Trek. You know, oh, man, Bashir, little green men. Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's just great, great episodes. I think this is this is good. And I think it is well executed and very well acted. It's just, like I said at the start, it is just a little bit manly for me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think I might be the problem there rather than the episode. Well, yeah, no, I think that it's, yeah, I think there's too many men. It's a sausage party. And like, you know, sometimes I like that. But in my Star Trek. I generally like there to be more women. It's the end of the episode and it's time for us to work out where we're going next. You chose this episode of Deep Space 9. And so I'm going to retaliate now by choosing one of by choosing an episode from one of 2 series of Star Trek, and they're the 2 series that we have covered the least at this point, I think. don't know what that is. They are Star Trek Voyager and Star Trek Enterprise. Of course. Well, you complain about me picking Enterprise all the time. At least there's a chance this will be a Voyager episode. I generally do take us to PS9. quite frequently. Yeah, but we have good time there. That's why. We recently were stuck with Malcolm Reid and Archer having fucking breakfast. Do you remember? Well, that was some weeks ago now. I know it's still traumatic, but it was quite some time ago. All I'm going to say to you is this right? Yeah. If you pull this shit on me, when you're here in my house with me okay? That could be some serious consequences. Five episodes of Enterprise in a row. All right. Just to get them out of the way. Okay, so I am going to press the button. It's a Voyager. Season six, episode seven. Dragon's teeth. Oh my god. That would be a really interesting one to talk about because it is great in all sorts of ways and really terrible in all sorts of ways. I think we've recently just picked the 1st one a couple of times but I am kind of tempting. me too. Like, that's, it's got a good role for Neelix in it. Oh, well, Naomi's there and we were complaining that we hadn't seen much of her in Voyager. She's got some nice CGI in it as well, some quite impressive CGI. This is sort of post-y S9 where they're getting their act together with the landscapes. But it does kind of fudge. This is a new great threat to the Delta Quadrant and we never, ever hear from them again. No, we're trying to make the Vardoir happen and they never do because they look stupid. What a fucking... Come on. It's not like the Dominion, is it? Fucking Vardwell. I just want to see what they look like, but I remember them looking stupid and that's probably enough to get me on board. So let's do it. Let's do it. Yeah, absolutely. You've been listening to untitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford and Nathan Bottomley, where online at untitled Star Trek Project com, where you can find subscription links and links to our social media accounts. Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Sisrin, and the theme was composed by Cameron Lamb. This episode was recorded on the 1st of July 2025 and released on the 4th of July. We'll see you next time for Star Trek Voyager, Dragon's Teeth. When we first started doing this, we, you know, the general idea was, whatever we chose, that's what we'd watch. Now, obviously, over time, we've... No, that was never it because right from day one, I wrote the rule that we have to keep rolling until we pick one. A, we pick one that we like, or B, we get embarrassed by how long the process is taking, like they, we had to do it until then. So it was always, it was always there that you could just sort of pick from the ones that were rolled. But I think, oh, I did have like a 12 picked stretch on one episode where you just kept, you got to the point where you went no, this is beyond embarrassing. And patient straining now. It's got to be this one. Well, I, you know, like, we've got to do it at some and I think we should definitely do it. So that's Dragon's teeth. I'm very excited. Bring on Naomi Wildman. Oh my god. All right, just wait, wait. It's one we've lost to talk about. That's for sure. There is plenty to say about that. Like, and we can talk about, you know, like just how Voyager does Doctor Who monsters, you know, like it just wants to kind of introduce new monsters all the time. And sometimes they take, like the herogen was sort of quite successful, I thought. We've even had herogen in, I think we've had herogen in, um prodigy. I literally think they do the, you remember the twist in alliances with the tribe? Oh, it's the same thing. It's the exactly the same twist where they, you know, meet... a representative of the people that they, the Vardoir worth item with. They get, 0 my god, the hardware are evil. No, it turns out actually they've been exploited and... something like that. I'll think. think I just wonder there's a great shot of now I've said it. It's going to be awful. There's a great shot of Voyager going through this ruined city whilst there's just like torpedoes flying everywhere. Oh, okay. Maybe I'll imagine that. Maybe that was a dream. I can't remember it, but I do remember what the Vardois looked like, obviously. And when I tell Robert that we're doing the Vardois, he'll be very excited. They sort of look a bit like, you know, that plant that looks like a vagina in the invasion of time. When it's sort of open. Their heads look a bit like that. You know, the sort of they're like flaps that come out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. they got weird neck thing happening, don't they? Yeah, it sort of goes all the way out and then down. It's like, cut price poundland, Cardassians. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, but they're sort of lizard people, aren't they? Maybe they didn't come back because the man said, yeah, I'm not wearing that again. I'm not doing that. all right. Yes. Because like we have the mail on, don't we? Like they try and make them happen and Species 90210. They look like Sontaurus, don't they? Oh, yeah. Who's? Yeah, yeah. What's the ones in the Herogen? They were not terrible design. They're fine. I think they're good. And when they had that giant 2 panda that we did, they were good. I appreciated the idea behind Species 8472, but the CGI just wasn't quite there yet for them to get away with it. But the idea was good. it was worth trying. Yeah. And then, of course, the Beaumont... Why did they never come back? Oh, no, people don't accessorise coat angers enough, you know? Yeah, no, people should be wearing coat hangers all the time. Maybe I'll turn off next week.