Learning Curve

Hey, Joe. Hi. So, we're back aboard Voyager. It's series one, episode 16. What would have been the season finale? in the sort of shortened 1st season that we get a Voyager, and it's called Learning Curve, and I think it's something like Battle of the B plots this week. There are only B blots in it this week. After watching, you know, the climactic action-packed finale of discovery series 2 last week. I feel as if things are even more ambitious and exciting this week as Tuvok takes this ragtag bunch of marquee terrorists and whips them into shape. I mean, I was absolutely riveted, weren't you? Well, yes, and then there's the B plot where the gel packs that are part of Voyages computer system are infected by cheese. This is an infamous B plot, all right. Everybody still remembers the famous line, get that cheese to Sick Bay. Which is pretty great, admittedly, that is a pretty great line. But I think, you know, both of them are from the kind of Voyager Bible, you know, there are 2 things that are distinctly Voyager which is the gel packs, which is a sort of rather boring thing, but there we are, and they do get mentioned in the Tuvix episode of Lower Decks, obviously. And then the Marquis as well, which is part of Voyager setup. And so you can see why they're doing it. But there's nothing really very interesting here at all, there's no sort of, like they're both really basic. Unambitious, you know? Yeah, yeah. There's no risk in any of this, is there? No. No, and it's not about anything. And like the way that that initial plot gets resolved is so perfunctory and so shitty, like embarrassingly bad. So I'm just not sure what this episode is for. And if you've only got an order of 16 episodes for this 1st season you wonder why not just the last one, but even one of them is this episode, because there's so little to it. Do you know what the last episode that was carried over to series 2 was that could have potentially been the other finale of Voyager series one? It wasn't the 37s. Possibly that could have been the season finale if it was in, but the sort of the 4th episode into, the 2nd series is Twisted. So, you know, when it's a battle between learning curve and twisted, well, it's the letter of 2 evils, isn't it? Yeah. I mean, there's nothing sort of like offensive here and there's nothing that's done particularly badly, but it's just really kind of boring, I think. It should be a point though, where these writers are so excited about the possibilities of what you could do with Voyager. You know, series one, a brand new crew. We're in a new region of space where you can go anywhere and do anything and face whatever knows dangers on in the alpha quadrant. And what are we doing? We're running around the bloody ship for 20 minutes and performing medical experiments on cheese. It's very it's very old. Yeah. There's a, there's a thing about early Voyager that I quite like where the, the stories aren't super urgent and there is a lot of time for just discovering what life on board the ship is like. And I guess that's, you know, attempting to do that job, but it doesn't make for anything sort of very entertaining, I think. Well, I think there's a massive problem in the, I know you call them both bees, but in what is technically the A plot here, which is Tuvok and the Cadets, is that Tuvok comes across as an unimpressive prick in this. and a bully. And all of the cadets are really annoying. They're not funny. They're not enjoyable to spend time with. So you've got an A-plot where you just don't want to be around any of these people. And as well, like Tuvok is old and he has children and he has decades of experience as a teacher at Starfleet Academy and he just learns the valuable lesson about like not leaving one of your students to die. Probably. Do you know what I mean? Like, it just doesn't seem to be a very kind of, like it's not the sort of lesson that he should be learning at this stage. And that's really all there is to that plot because we do actually see one of these people, again later, Chell, the Bolian, will turn up again in repression in season seven. Nothing between now and then. Nothing between now and then. What did they do in series 7? Seven years later. Go, oh, do you remember that guy that was in learning curve? Well, because repression does have some kind of, it's a McKee thing, the high concept thing, but there's McKee stuff in it. I can't really remember it, but I did look it up. And so because those people never come back because they're not going to be semi-regular characters. That plot doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is what Tuvok learns and what he learns is really tried and not very interesting and something he should probably know anyway. And so that plot goes nowhere. And then the other plot is just lousy with kind of technobabble and stuff and really just climaxes in order to give the other B plot a climax. But I just can't get excited as well about gel packs or technology in any way, shape, or form, unless it's just visually amazing technology. like we had last week on Star Trek Discovery. But when people are just going around with pouches of jail going oh, dear. I mean, all of the systems rely on this gel. Oh, God almighty. Do you remember them making a big deal about it? Like, I get to mention in caretaker. And it's one of the things that kind of they were, you know, little publicity videos or something about, you know, this exciting new ship, where instead of small perspects strips in slots, they had gel. And it's just like, who cares? Like, why, why would anyone care about that? And remember that when discovery goes to the 32nd century and there's new technology. It is, as you said, visually interesting. You know, it changes the way the stories are told. It makes a difference to how the show looks, whereas the gel packs who gives a shit, honestly? I use gel on my hair, you know. Imagine a lovely glow I would have if I use bio neurogel or whatever it is. With cheese. Obviously, you know, we do have to watch this thing. I rather feel like we're putting it off now. because it's so dull. But the really irritating thing about the A-plot for me was the fact that Tuvok goes, what is it? You know, I have tried and tested methods at the academy, you know what? So you bullied, you know, year upon year, people into the Starfleet way. I mean, it's like recruiting the Nazi youth the way he behaves. You may have no sense of individuality. You are not allowed an opinion. You may not, you know, show any kinds of um, autonomy in your thinking, you do things by the book, you do what I say you do, and you know, you do your, well, they call those scenarios that they do, you know, those test scenarios. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely to the rule book. Oh my god. I mean, I wouldn't want to be a member of Starfleet. I would feel as if all of Joe Forbes would vanish in 2 vots horrendous bullying. And it wasn't the way that Starfleet Academy was portrayed in the game as well, where it was like a university where people clowned around a little bit, where they spent time learning humanity subjects. It wasn't, you know, like it seemed like a fun and interesting place to be. And so he's just here as a sort of crusty television soldier or something. And that's not what the characters like, even in the rest of series one. So it's a bad misreading of what he's like. It's a bit thankless for Tim Ruff as well. That's so stupid. Connie just see that these are people that chose to be terrorists right? That have been flung away from their friends and family and then forced to work for the federation. right? So they're about on 3 levels. They're struggling, okay? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he considers the best approach to bring in these people around to this way of thinking. It's just to be really horrible to them It's just weird. Yeah, it's huge. My approach would be a kinder approach, you know, and just say right. Should we talk this through? you know, like, okay, tell me what your issues are. And we know that Tuvok is kind of a kind and wise man in other episodes. No, the evidence here. Yeah, not here. All right. I think we should do it. We are just delaying the inevitable. We may, you know, very quickly slip between the pages of a Gothic romance for a few scenes beforehand. just to lighten our load. All right. I will count us in. Do you have to? All right. Five, four, three, two, one, and we're off. Ah, we appear to be in England. I actually quite like this set, although the more I look at it, the more fibreglass it is. It's a bit like Leonardo Studio in Scorpions. Do you remember? They do the scale really well and the furniture's beautiful, but it's all a bit pristine. Yeah, that's it. I mean, you know, we talk about how the BBC does this sort of period stuff so well and the stuff that we used to, like in Doctor Who, there are never windows and the light is, you know, always flat, studio lighting and stuff. So in a way, it's better than that, but it does seem too pristine. That's it. The audition piece for Naomi Wildman with these 2 little kitty winks. Beatrice and Henry. So Henry is, of course, one of the horrific moppets in Star Trek Generations, in Picard's fantasy. You had a proper reaction to that, didn't you? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Here, I actually think he's actually pretty good. Just what I punch his face though, because he looks quite annoying. He is intended to be that. Do you know what I mean? He is intending intended to be that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think he does a really good job of it. He actually does appear in an episode of Star Trek Picard series 3 called 17 seconds. He's obviously a grown man then, and he's actually captured by Raffi and Worf and kind of roughed up and tortured. Right. It is a really good scene. And it's he's the person that gives us the 1st inkling that the changelings are involved. Rafi thinks he's, you know, coming down. He's detoxing from some kind of drug. He's having withdrawal. That's the word. He turns into this big puddler sick on the floor, doesn't he? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's very much sort of raw chicken is how the exchange things look in their natural form. A confusing moment between me and you, but I'll leave that ambiguous for now. Oh, listen to this. Talking to the girl going, oh, never mind the sciences, young girl. What about needlework? An artist. Yeah, I don't know why she wants to do that. You're supposed to be, you know, pioneering science for women. Janeway. So one of the things that's really funny here too, is that Lord Burleigh speaks in Latin, and he says something which is meant to mean, let's not rush into anything. But it's not really that. His pronunciation is shockingly bad. Do you remember laws? Do you remember when we meet him? Eventually, we'll do an episode where we see him and Lord Burley is the exactly the right name for him. Oh, really? Oh, Catherine. I shouldn't have these feelings for you as the governor. is really terrible. But one of the things is, so the words for let's not rush into anything is in Ulam Remne Properemus, and that hilariously is the title of the two-part season 8 opener of There's a Voyager season 8 set of audio dramas. So they've taken Lord Burleigh's live. From here, like it's an amateur fan audio dramas, which do get mentioned in memory alpha, but it just struck me as hilarious that they used Lord Burleigh's line as the bikini. your research. You impress me no end, you know. The amount of times you watched rebel episodes. Well, I did get to watch a whole scene from series 3 of Picard. So it wasn't always... That's the foetid corners of memory alpha. Put a torch into. Oh, boy. Oh, no, can I just say one last thing, because that's the last time I think we see the romance hollow novel in this episode, this episode. It is a baffling inclusion, really. Is that the last thing I would ever want to do for recreation if I was the leader of a starship would be to go to the holodeck and be the governess to a pair of annoying twinks. Yeah, horrible. Come on, Jamie. I mean, more respect for Fairhaven now, when she personalises that male dildo, frankly. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, one of the things that I like about the way the holiday gets used in Voyager is that everyone's sort of trapped and they live here all the time and there's no sort of hope of going home and there's talk about like developing their own culture and stuff like that. hear them talk about that. And so the holodeck allows us to see them engaging in media essentially like watching television. And I like that. We're watching them doing the same thing as we're doing. And, you know, so it's not always holiday goes wrong. It's sometimes just there's a card. It can be like, you know, the James Bond program in DS9, which is fabulous. Or, um, Better being Better Bang. It's the same thing. Not even better. The baseball game in I'm choosing all the DS9 ones now because basically the Lord Burleigh's manor, the hideous beach resort, the indoor, sort of interior beach resort from series 3, Fairhaven. I mean, Voyager's choices are just, the only one that really works for me is chaotica. You know, the black and white. Yeah, I mean, we get saundrines here. And I think both saundrines and the and the beach resort give us a much needed break from Voyages kind of... Terrible, no. The beach resort looks terrible. Shots go outside and film those scenes. you know, go to a beach. You did it in future's end. But remember that they, they don't do a terrible job at lighting that any more than they do in the, you know, Rebecca Holland novel that we just saw Janeway Inn. Like, the lighting's reasonable, and it does make a change from the Voyager sads. It does. It does. That scene there before the pre-titles, right? The fella realised that the gel pack was malfunctioning. I went, you know what? I'm going to go and fix that. That would be a good, nice thing for me to do. And Duvox there going, well, you didn't fill out all the forms. You know, fuck you, all right? I'm trying to help us out here. So Janeway's hollow novel didn't work for 2 seconds. Well, it's not, you know, it's worse malfunctioning from happening. Lord Burley disappeared or little Henry Burley disappeared. It's your favourite Jane Way here. The severe bum. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I like it a little bit more when it, no, when it's long guy, you know, like when it, uh... Yeah. I mean, look, it looks pretty great. She's doing Catherine Hepburn more here than she does elsewhere, I think. I mean, the best thing about her hair in series one and 2 is that every time, you know, the ship's under attack, it can sort of fall out in disarray and we realise just how bad things are. That's exactly right. It's like a barometer. So here's Tuvok now saying, well, you know, I'm getting a lot of complaints about these marquee members, you know, they're not joining the crew like they should. They're not behaving like in the way they are. And even the way this is directed as well with him with, you know in profile just makes him seem more rigid. Do you not what I mean? And and stuff. It makes Chakotay seem more thoughtful because he's looking at him and you're responding and reacting. Well, you can see some thought processes on Robert Belcher's face of going, yeah, you know, I see what you're saying. So he steps in here and says, yeah, but they didn't sign up for this, Tuvolt, remember, like you did. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yes. And I think it is, it is the, he's a Vulcan and he can't properly understand people who don't obey rules and stuff like that. And that's just super tedious. I think it's spoken strange new worlds. Yeah, he's not rigid like this, is he? He is thoughtful. He can see both sides. So it's Tuvok, though, in other episodes. Like earlier in the season, this shows you the sort of the lack of internal consistency with the characters. He's the one in prime factors. There's still also technology. Yes, exactly. I don't want you to do something legal. So I did it for you because you are my friend. you know, and Starfleet dictates that you can't do it. So naturally somebody else had to. Well, that's not this person. No, because in fact, the discovery that he can go back and save Geren's life rather than leaving him to die. and that's breaking Starfleet protocol and that's like a big revelation. That's the big moment at the end of the episode and the thing that it kind of centres around and that's so boring. I mean, that's super boring. I don't want to be this tedious person that sets the same thing in every episode, right? But there was an opportunity here, if they given these cadets these, sorry, these marquee crew members a bit more of an interesting personality to have them run the 7 years to be background characters that come to the 4 every now and again with little arcs of their own and things happening within the series. No, they just don't do it at all, do they? Every time they bring in characters like this, we forget about them next week. The only time they did it and it stuck was collective when it was like horrible kids. But I mean, even if they were like background characters like Oo or Detmer or Bryce or Reese from Discovery last week where we don't really get to know them, but there are presents of familiar presence on the ship. But Voyager doesn't have any of that, really. Oh my god. Which is odd because DSI was absolutely doing that at this time absolutely. So it's not like they couldn't have done it. chose not to. Well, I think too, that, you know, they wanted to go back. It's simpler to not have a suite of semi-regular characters as far as, you know, contracts and all of that sort of thing and writing and stuff. So. So should we go through these 4 people one by one and explain why none of them work. So 1st of all, the Bolion. They're jolly fat Bolian. So he's Shell. And he's very unfit because and that's his personality. And then we have pretty little Guerin, who 5 years earlier had been the main kid in the never-ending story, the next chapter. Oh, my God, I thought you were going to say the original then. That's one of my favourite films. Not the original. Not the original. He takes over from the other kid. The terrible sequel. Okay. playing the same character. But he's obviously, you know, the cute... He's from Basil. We know all about the occupation. He's obviously quiet and troubled because he has history. And is Tuvok kind to him? Does Stuvok take any of this into consideration? He does risk his life to save him at the end, but so he should. Then you've got this lady here whose name I've forgotten, but she looks like you're absolutely... She looks like your stereotypical mum of every middle class American family, you know, in every sitcom. That's kind of what she looks like. But she plays the role of, oh, I don't want to do this. you know that's basically how she spends the episode. Yeah, whinging and complaining. Yeah, so none of them are fun. of them are interesting. We don't discover anything fun or interesting about any of them. And there is one just grotesquely ill-judged, horrible backstory that we get in song dreams in that scene at the end, which I just loathe. I can't wait to hear that. I've got one moment. I truly dislike as well, which is coming up quite soon, actually. Shell running around the cargo bay. I mean, I mean, that's just horrible in itself. All right, pick on the fat one. Make it wrap around. Yeah, yeah. That's right. Nobody else is doing it. Yeah, they're all disobeying orders right now. properly insubordinate. He would he kept talking. They're marquee terrorists. There's gonna be an element of insubordination. I would factor that in before starting. But, I mean, this whole thing is so boring, the hot. Maybe the McKee thing was just a bad idea because they drop it. I mean, they don't go through with it, you know, and it is interesting at the kind of beginning, but this is not an interesting way of dealing with it, I think. Interestingly, we're all using the word interesting now, because nothing is interesting on the stream. But interestingly, the most interesting thing is Chakotay, because I love this scene now where he comes in and goes, oh, you want to do things the marquee way, fine. And then he just lamps him round the face and says, yeah, and there's plenty more of that if you want it. Now get back to the car burger and do as you're told. Well, I think there was a little bit of that in, was it State of Flux? What's the 1st one? Like the, the one where Cesca comes and talks about, you know stealing replicator rations or something and Chakotay has to report her. I mean, they're used to thinking on their wits and improvising and doing things that they shouldn't do to get, you know, to get ahead. It does make Chakotay a little sexy for a 2nd though. Yeah, yeah, it's great. It's probably good. This Chakotay go, Nathan. Yeah, yeah. Well, they stopped doing it. They just, you know, like, it's such a shame because he is, I mean he's still the medium Robert at all times. He's still not Robert Picardo. But he's got an age. He's so much. Yeah, he's so much better than he ends up being. I'm never quite sure sometimes in the scenes which way he's going to jump, you know? And that's quite exciting because most of the time it's always you you know exactly which way people are going to jump. was so good. He's left-handed too. What's very funny is at the end of the scene, right? They all go back to the chair and he's nursing his face for ages going, oh, wow. That really hurt. Yeah, no, that was good. really good. in the mess hole right now. Is there any sign of the cheese yet? No, no, okay. Just the slapping him on the cheek is so good. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's great. I think that is roughly great. That's a great thing. So I think a couple of the regulars get, because there's a good scene with the doctor later when he's got the cheese in Sick Bay very funny. It's just... And one us off looking fucking... so manly. wonderful. Just to me. Yeah, that I think that's the best scene. Like, easily. That is really great. But now, now this is the scene I hate. where they're in the cargo bay, right? And then she goes past them one at a time and takes away every single piece of individuality that they have. It fucking irritates me because in Kurtzman Trek, you'd be allowed to have an earring, you'd be allowed to have a headband. You would be allowed to have some aesthetic individuality. You certainly would be able to express your religion. And he literally strips them away. He really wears an earring in Star Trek, the Next Generation series fine. Maybe that medallion's a bit much. Yeah, it's been 70s, isn't it? But you couldn't see it, right? So who gives a shit? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It just really, it really makes me think of the Nazi youth, right? Stripping them all away and making them all the same. I mean, but it's TV, you know, he's a TV sergeant major or something. Like the earring thing, that was settled. Roe wore her earring on board Enterprise on board the Enterprise for the years that she was in the show. Why are we losing it now, you know? Um, It's just crazy. It's just crazy. And do you know, like, I'm explaining now how I would deal with this situation. I would ask about the earring. I would say, that's a nice headband. I would make them feel comfortable before asking them to, you know obey the rules and regulation. Like, you would say, look, this is uniform thing. There's a reason we do a uniform thing. He doesn't have to explain himself, but this is a different situation, you know. See, this scene offer was very badly read. It's in engineering, right? And B'Elana basically says to what's the fellow's name? Um, I'm going to. A man who Jakoti Dolby. B'lana says to Dolby, oh, you're afraid that you're not going to make it through 2 box training. And then it's all techno babble. That's it. we gleam from this scene. Well, because now we're getting the beginning of the other B plot which is the failing gel packs. But that, again, it's just picking at his insecurities rather than actually being a friend and saying, why don't you give it a go, you know, like. And what has she experienced? What's her experience being? It took her about adapting episodes to. Yeah, to get into line and to be sort of rewarded with that chief engineer role. But we're not interested in any of that. Like, we're not interested in anything about, you know, this is paper thin. There's no character stuff really at all. There's no sense that anyone else on board the ship has had difficulties adjusting and why, you know, we get, we do get that backstreet. I really love. Now, this is a great scene because he's got the shell pad and what's this thing called? The medical scanner is they put the gel pack into the scanner and he's like, you know, I've been told that my should improve my bedside manner. How are you doing there today? It's so stupid. It's not a great joke, but Picardo can turn it into a good line. Don't worry, my little friend. But didn't Belana say knock it off? Why did you put up the lanas? Stop being fun. We're not a fun show, remember? Oh, dear. Okay, so there's an infection in the gel pat. contagion. What could it possibly? But again, it doesn't have any interesting effects. Like we've seen over and over again, the ship systems fail in all sorts of ways. And there was one just a few weeks ago. Do you remember when the uh, when Janeway's coffee appeared before the cup did in the replicator because things were failing. Oh, yeah. And we've had it on Star Trek, the Next Generation, where loud music starts playing in Picard's quarters or on the bridge or, you know, like fun things, but this is not fun. Like there's nothing really fun. Here, making them run up and down the Jeffreys tubes and all around the ship, right? This is no way of turning people into line. Exhausting them and then saying, right, we're going to do this every single day for a week. and if your time doesn't get any better, We'll do it for another week. What are you doing? You're torturing them now. But what he says is, you will get better at this, and as you do you'll start to feel better about yourselves and your ability to achieve stuff, do you know what I mean? Like, he, that's what he says he's doing. And that's not terrible. Do you know what I mean? It makes me say it with a smile, though. Why doesn't he say it to them now? You know, like why, you know, he says it later. This is why we're doing this, okay? Here's why we're doing this. You know, these are adults. And it... I'm starting to wonder, you know, you know, all these sort of damaged captains and admirals that we made. Yeah, yeah, yeah. To all of night is trek. too far of them. Put them for his Nazi regime, and they've all... runs around the Starbase like 5 times a day, you know, oh, I'll get better. Oh, but this is like, so now you've got the sort of jolly da-da-da da-da-da-da-da. Voyager music. as they go up and down ladders and run through the mess hole and it just goes on forever. And I was like, oh, this can't be the whole episode, please. And they all run really slowly because I actually quite like this. The 5 is funny. It needs a glass of water. That could have been funny. And then, look, Tuvok just takes the glass off him and doesn't like, you know, it puts it down. Like he doesn't, like, that could have been funny, but it's not. No, remember the trouble with triples, that whole thing with the glass of water through the fire? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It can be funny. Oh, look, we're going... Actually, I think we're going down now. The same ladder we just went up. It's even the same camera shop. Yeah. So this is David Livingston, who I actually made fun of last episode. Um, he's just a very, I do have a sense of him as a director. I think you're going to say he's a very sort of meat and potatoes Star Trek director. He's also the director that gave us gridlock that gave us the full. Sorry, gridlock. Deadlock. He gave us the 1st DS9 crossover episode with brilliantly weird angles. He is the director that if the script is good, He goes the extra mile. And if the script is bad because he also gave us Fairhaven and spirit folk. He just goes, do you know what? Point the camera. lets just get this done. I've done 200 of these now. Let's just go home Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know if you noticed, you know, but we're kind of desperate for content in this episode, but as they were running around the ship, you could see Dolby's impressive package sort of jumping it out. Yeah. Oh, it's not running anymore. You get a little bit of Guerran there. No, Dolbys were very... I was just noticing it. Crossing down the corridor and I was like, well, they did miss her. There's got to be some joy in wearing those hideous jumpsuits that they've got on. awful, aren't they? What is this all about? Yes, go and clean the transporter pad with this toothbrush. Well, that's it. It's like cleaning out the replica. not the transporter pad. It's de-gaussing the transporter pad. It's like, you know, you can imagine setting someone to, to, um does Marin have to do it? Like clean out the holodeck with a toothbrush and you know what people do in there. In that fabulous episode where Kira turns into a massive crystal right? That's the same episode with the B plot where Nog tries to bribe Cisco into letting him into Starfleet Academy and they go, right Cisco goes, right, let's give him a test and see if he can do this. Now, he doesn't give him a toothbrush and say go and clean the transporter pad. He makes him do an inventory on the most expensive stuff they've got in the cargo bay, right? So it's, can he do detailed work and is he going to, he's a Ferengi? Is he going to try all the stuff? Yeah, and he absolutely does it and it's super fun and it pays off and it has character. What is he doing, cleaning this transport I've had with a toothbrush. And we didn't even see it. And it, like, why didn't they... This feels like punishment. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he's humiliating them as well. And, and, like, Harry came the prick. Oh, the line. You missed a spot. Like, that's not funny. And it wouldn't be... Like, Shell got the last laugh. He was a captain come series 7, whereas... I don't think he was. Even Lieutenant would be better than Harry Hume. Yeah, that's true. So here we are in the holodeck doing a like a boring. Like it's randomly generated. It's kind of like, it's a bit like series one of Voyager where they just kind of go, you know, roll a dice. Oh, it's going to be a spatial anomaly. Oh, it's going to be cheese, you know, like it's it's kind of makes fun of the actual show itself. You know, oh, it's, let's say, it's the Romulans, oh, let's say it's a thing, you know. And so this is super boring. And apparently, like the McKee problem is that they want to fight to the deaf. Is that right? Yes, and that's why they failed. They retreated. The moral of the story is you should have backed off. Whereas, do you know, like the Kubayashi Maru scenario in original track. That was really great. And then when Troy does her training, right, and has to learn the lesson, you know, sometimes you have to let people die. That's the only way out. That was really interesting. sometimes you've got to learn how to reverse. How boring. Yeah, yeah. But also, like these guys seem to me to be doing quite a good job here. Like, they're not playing together. That's right. Yeah, that's right. You know, the everyone's doing their role. They seem to be selling it. And there's just no sense of, you know, you're a manager of thoughts, you know, you run people. You know about the shit sandwich, right? You deliver the criticism within. you did this well. You could have done that better. You did this well. And they go, you don't do that. It just goes, you did really shit. That's what he says at the end. You're just all terrible and we're just going to have to try it again. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. We're not allowed to do the shit sandwich anymore. Any script. What do you do now then? You just tell people. Also, the Tuvok approaches actually invoke. Try and be a bit less of a prick about it. If you can. Oh, did you see that? There's that moment. Yeah, where you can tell this. You're almost vanish. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The moment where he's sort of standing there. It's just like, wow, he's weirdly associated from the background. I wonder if there's going to be a video effect happening behind it. There are many times in 90s treks when almost as many times as you have a huge space on the screen and you know someone's going to beam in in the next minute. Well, I think it was our deja Q episode where you pointed that out to me and now I watch for it all the time and that was a... I know what are their reactions here. Oh, you know, you can't fault me. My evasive accents were great. At least we went out with our phasers firing. They're all pricks as well. I just don't like any of these people in this room. It's so boring. I mean, it's so boring. And if, like, if they had a way of interacting with each other that was less formal and less rigid and that worked really well and then Tuvok actually kind of learns, oh, wow, actually, do you know what I mean? It's not that they're just sort of fuckups or washouts, but they're actually good on their own terms, and he learned to respect them in some way. you know what I mean? And even found some way to accommodate them. That's a more interesting story and it's about the problem. It's not just about Tuvok being a prick or these guys being assholes because it would be a microcosm of what's going on in the ship as a whole. But, like, they're just, when they do the 2nd version of this, Good Shepherd, uh, and they have Janeway in the 2 vault role in the shuttle with these 4 wayward people, um, that is exactly what happens. And the reason that's a, it's still not a great episode, but the reason it's a better episode is she talks to them and gets to know them, tries to understand them, figures out what their strengths are, and then there's a really lame sort of, you know, tense moment where there's a bit of danger and she manages to use all their strengths exactly like you just said there. So at least we're, she's learning and we're learning something about, well, imagine we never see those people again after that, I don't think, either. So, you know, hey ho. Oh, here we go. It's our obligatory Tuvok and Neelix scene. No, I mean, I quite like those. This could have been awful because he does the thing I always make a joke about, you know, the Voyager metaphor. Now let me tick you over to this plant, Nathan. Now, look at this now. You add the water, the ugly tree. The stems don't break. But look at this one. Snap. What you're saying is they're rigid, rigid and unfocused missing. And then it's a zinger. No, Mr. Tuvok, it's you. You're an asshole. Yeah, that's right. He literally says, you are Richard unfixable, Mr. Chewbok. And I went, yes, finally, somebody said it. It's actually, I mean, it's rare for Neelix in series one, to be quiet, because it takes him a while to not be like super annoying and part of his the Kess thing, like in warlord, they're no longer together and that's a good thing. And Neelix improves measurably. And pairing these 2 together is genius. Like, I think it's really good. I think they're great together and they're great opposites. You know, I think this is probably my 2nd favourite scene. But part of the problem is, of course, we've been watching this. You know, we've seen what he's done. And so having him explain it to Neelix again is a little bit of a waste of our time. When he says that, he's being a prick. The look on Chewbox face is hilarious. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The Keila flowers, which are serving as it. Very important. flowers, is it? Okay. Yeah. I hate this, and they do it all the time. Usually it's chewbok using a flower, actually. You know, that's an awkward. hyperodizing orkids and things like that. Bringing things together. I think there's a metaphor in tubics as well. You know, about things coming together, falling apart. It's so bad, isn't it? Yes, yeah. You're right. I always make unfair comparisons between Chevoc and Elix and Odo and Quark. But only because they just put in the effort with Odo and Quark to develop it, to figure out what the actor's strengths are together and then to give them time. not the same energy, is it? Now, go and watch the one with Odour and Quark going up the mountain and then go and watch Rise. and tell me which series was getting better. And again, rise is sort of like, why is he suddenly being a prick to Neelix all along? So this... I am not a big fan of cream cheese. The that cream cheese looks particularly unappetising. Because it's really green, isn't it? Like the colours are sort of blown out in the copy that I'm watching, but it seems a sort of fluorescent green. It's been asked to make macaroni and cheese, doesn't he? by one lieutenant. It didn't look like macaroni and cheese in the pan, mind. No, no. So he's made cheese for the macaroni and cheese and now, so that's that's the thing they're infected with cheese. unbelievably tedious, isn't it? And as well, it's like the pan, the pan is over a vent. So the cheese fumes have gone up into the vent. That's it with the bacteria. With the gel packs. I mean, who was was anyone giving these scripts the once over? I mean, I do think, yeah, the Cheese of Sick Bay is a brilliant line. like a properly fun line and super memorable. and isn't it? I do actually like this shot as well, where the cheese is in a sort of big space containment field in between the 2 of them, which is pretty great. I mean, that macaroni and cheese looks vile, doesn't it? bubbling away there. Oh, that's really in putting. Yeah. Everything they say about Nix's cooking is true. Oh, dear. I mean, imagine if a cheese brought down Voyager. That was, you know, the last episode. Yeah, well, yeah, yeah, the finale, what will the cheese do now? The last line was getting the Jesus sick, mate. There it is. There it is. Oh, Belana. Poor Neelix. Oh, he's adorable, isn't he, Ethan Phillips? So this scene here, right? And the thing that I hate about this scene is, so we've got this sort of, you know, um, uh, we're going to discover that Dolby is traumatised by what happened to his girlfriend at the hand of the Cardassians and that that's why he's being a prig and the show which is a kids show or like a family adventure program, you know that's syndicated on a network, says that 3 Cardassians raped her and then bashed her skull. And like we talked a little bit in Voyager, in Discovery, which is a more adult program, you know, that's on streaming that's pitched for adults, that has swearing and violence in it, and how ill judged the backstory about Michael's real parents was, where they're killed and or raped by Klingons. And what strikes me about it is that it's raping women that is just being used as a sort of decorative, you know, script element. And you wouldn't say that about raping men. Do you know what I mean? If you turned in a script, you know, and it had been Henley and she said her boyfriend had been raped by Cardassians and killed that wouldn't have made it to air. That would never have happened. And it's not because, you know, homosexuality or anything like that. It's simply because it's okay to kind of include women getting raped in your story, in your stupid trivial story about these people, you know? I mean, it's worth remembering, of course. I mean, they may be looking at the Roddenberry Bible, because that was Tachier's backstory, wasn't it? And it was all women again. There was no mention of it. Well, it was blokes doing it, wasn't it? Because the one time we get a flashback of that. I can't believe we saw it. I mean, for God's sake, so terrible. But like at least, and I don't think it's good with Tashi R. I think it's a terrible backstory. At least she's a regular character and is trying to inform us. This is somebody we'll never see again. about 3 scenes after this. Yeah, yeah. And like, I don't know. And why the hell didn't he do this to start off with? Let's go and choose some Paul. Tell me about yourself. Oh, okay. This is why you're behaving like this. Fine. Let's now figure out a program that we can all work through together. It's the thing where he's saying, I thought that if we achieve things, if I set up situations where you learn that improves and achieve things that you would start to feel better about yourself. And he says this was meant to be a positive experience for everyone. You know, like, that's good, but why is he too stupid to do that early on? The consequences of that would be good, yeah. But as I tell you a 1000000 times over, these micromanagers, that focus on everything people aren't doing and just make you feel so terrible about everything that you're doing. You don't grow in those situations. You don't try harder. You just feel shit about yourself. Yeah. I mean, Starfleet's a military organisation and so they're using the sort of 20th century military or the 21st century military is a kind of model or at least how they're portrayed on television. Wesley Crusher being treated like this. Yeah, no, of course he didn't. That's right No wonder he came back in the game so relaxed, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. wavy hair looking gorgeous. He's having a great time. He's doing his art and his philosophy. Yeah, learning Latin, you know, Oh, poor kiss. She gets a couple of lines of tetababoyness, and that's it. She's like the host year of this episode. Yeah, she does get more stuff to do normally, doesn't she? But and pairing her up with the doctor is actually quite a good thing because pairing her up with Neelix was so awful and kind of toxic. It's sweet, but then you realise when 7 comes in, it could have been sweeter because pair it up 7 and the doctor is... is really great. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well, I think because they're both outsiders in the same sort of way. you know. I mean, I'd like to pretend that they grew out of episodes like this going forward. But, you know, there is about 5 or 6 learning curves every year. I don't mean the same plot, but, you know, this flat and uninteresting. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like, it's not terrible. It's not offensive in any way. You know, there's nothing about it. Like, it's not totally... offensive in some ways, but yes, no. The material isn't offensive. No, that's right. It just never raises its head above the parapet to be engaging at any point. No. But I think that we should count our blessings because the worst Robert really only gets a couple of lines as well. Ah, that is a good trade-off. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Imagine if he was in charge of the training. Oh my god, it's strange. Pizza and booze parties and we'll all be watching Carter. Actually, that could be quite fun. Oh my god, this is cute. This situation of peril now is so boring, isn't it? The lights are flashing a little bit. That's about it. Now compare this to the peril we was in last week on Discovery, you know? Jesus Christ. Even compare it to the very similar peril in disaster with or the haunting of deck 12. Do you remember all the smoke everywhere? Fabulous. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I mean, like it's directly the same scene, isn't it? They're in a cargo bay, a Beverly and Geordia in a cargo bay that's about to fill with toxic gas. Do you know what I mean? And like, that's all torque and and technobabble and stuff like that. It's all for sea people we actually like though. But it's 2 people we really like and it's really fun seeing them react. Two people knew like, one I like, one I tolerate. Oh, it's barely, you've got to love Beverly. She's great. No, in fact, we know there's petrol white too dramatic because Janeway's hair is still perfect. It's still fine. It will suffer a little bit from the final solution. And the solution, I think, is sort of clever, I guess. So they decide to give it a fever by heating it. Yeah, clever. Again. Well, I don't know. Like, it's a fever, you know, that's, like, I like that the doctor solves the problem. Like, they have to heat it, like, that's something. It can't do what we do when we get an infection, so we'll do that you know, that seems logical. Very often, the solutions in 90s trick episodes are a bit mundane aren't they? Or it's all just techno babble. Do you know what I mean? Like they're just saying sort of made up words at each other until the problem goes away. Here at least it's couched in terms that makes sense to the audience. Maybe I can see now what Brandon Braga was going for in threshold when he turned him into those lizards. Well, this is a bit different, you know, from the usual tent of babble. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, that's actively unpleasant to watch in all sorts of ways. But like the most predictable thing this episode could have done right? is present these people as useless, then put them in a situation of extreme peril at the end where they find a way out of it and Tuvok goes, my God, you're all amazing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly what we get. Yeah. It feels like an episode of Saved by the Bell, you know? But and they don't do it in a particularly McKee way either. Do you know what I mean? Like they don't, or a Starfleet way. like the way that they do it tells us nothing about them. Yeah? Asthma key or are they behaving like this because Duvok's been teaching them. You know, like none of the lines are drawn, it's just, it's just it's so perfunctory. Like it's all about just having scenes of them running through the ship and it's not about anything. I'll give you a parallel. Do you remember when Kira was sent to the Cardassian rebellion against the Dominion and they sent her because she was a terrorist because she would have, you know, methods to help them. And she does. She says to the Kardashians, you know, you got to kill your own people. She goes, unfortunately, they made the choice, you know. And it's all about Kira teaching them, you know, sometimes you've got to make tough choices if you're a terrorist. Whereas, you know, there's no real tough choices here in, what are they doing? Yeah, so there's some explosions in the cameras juttering, thanks to David. My God, the plasma will be toxic within minutes. Within minutes. We can't leave him. We've only got minutes. I'm not risking losing any more of you to save one man. Oh, please. Just come out of the book. cliche book of dialogue. It's so bad. And I don't give a Circassian fig. Fuck off No, it's when he goes, what is it? Does this come out of your tactical book that you leave people behind? Oh, dear. I do like Mr. Dolby, I will break your arm if you don't follow the order. It's pretty good. Yeah. We're Chewbox Bishop. was great. But again, you know, like he doesn't give, he doesn't say, I'll get him, you go. Do you know what I mean? He doesn't reassure them or anything like that because it has to be this big surprise. The hair is... Oh, she's sweating, isn't she? Yeah, well, everyone's sweating. There's one shot of um, the doctor looking very sort of chill and um, and Kes looking askance at him, just absolutely dripping with swear. And that jumpsuit does nothing for Tim Russ's arse, does it? Did you see her going, oh, that ladder? I don't know. Come on now, look. He looks like he's in a baby grow up, for God's sake. Yeah, it does. It looks bad, doesn't it? It's terrible. Yeah, really terrible. Again, I'm going to make a similarity now. There is a scene in Rejoined where the engineering is full of smoke and Jazir has to decide whether to go and save Lenara Khan or leave her to die, but it's her ex-lover and it fucking means something. It means something if she leaves her to die. What the hell does this? We don't care about these people. But he doesn't even manage to rescue them. I don't know Like, why doesn't he mention? Robert's terrible. I've got fever. forehead. Yeah, okay, yeah. Poor Harry doesn't get a child story. right in the back of the shop there. in the background. I know look at this. And look at her. But it's like, it was a war, wasn't they? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But he's all cheaper and kind of, I think, we're doing really well. And then we look over at her and she just is looking aghast at him. Can I say right? When Harry's hair falls over his face like that. Yeah, yeah, so hot. Poppy hair. That should be his look I think. I think so too. Well, I think that's working for Karen in among these 4 guys, isn't it? Like Garon's like a pretty kid with floppy hair. So Chewvoc has now proved himself because he's gone in and saved Garin. So now everybody loves him and they're going to work really hard to be part of the crew. Or we'll never see them again except for Chell, who is the one we're least interested in in 6 seasons time. Does he die in episode? I don't know. It's like bringing over... is a murder mystery. Oh, do you not remember the twist in that one? No, Tufok is investigating himself. himself. He's the one doing this. That's how bad the episodes get by Sirius 7. Oh, fucking Al. There are some twilies. Yeah. It's desirable. If you can bend the rules, then maybe we can obey them. And it's just like, oh, good, this problem's all solved neatly within the space of 42 minutes. Thank you. Kill me. Oh my god. Oh my god, you could rarely see Chewhawk's junk. Did you see that? I just saw it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I did. Oh, yeah. God take what we can from this. They can't figure out. No, they's had the last scene. I thought it was another scene. Oh, boy. Well, there we go. I think we've all learned a valuable lesson there. I think we have, but I would have liked a cheese related final scene. you know what I mean? Just to wrap the cheese plot up. Maybe everyone is in the mess hall, eating macaroni, cheese. Yeah, I think maybe that's it. Well, I mean, it would be a celebratory enter the season. Technically we're ending the season. We choose what going off having learnt this terrible moral with a bunch of nobodies we're never going to see again. Well, folks, we'll see you in series two. Yeah, it's not great. I mean, had the 37s brought series one to a close, which I do think was the original idea. That does at least end. With the decision of everybody, you stay with Voyager or you go off to these fabulous cities that we can't afford to show you because we spent all the budget this year. Yeah, and they're, of course. Of course, everybody's in the cargo bar. I'd want it to be Niglix going, nah, do you know what? off. This is dull. Enough of these fucking nebulas. Jesus Christ All right, it's the end of the episode, and it is time for us to work out where we're going next time. It's my turn to choose, and ordinarily, I would take a look at our coverage page and decide that we're going to do an episode of Enterprise. But just this once, I'm not going to do that. I've taken a look at our coverage page and we're going to do an episode of Star Trek, The Next Generation. Oh, wonderful. Okay. Yeah. We've been pretty lucky with next gen lately. We have, so it's bound to be terrible. Please. There is one. series one. Come on. It's Peter. Code of honour. I've been the one to roll it, I think. Yeah, I'm desperate. To biosis. Come on. All right, here goes. So it is season one. Oh, yes. It's it's season one, episode 24, We'll always have Paris. Oh, that's sort of erring on the side of being all right, though. Yeah, that is on the side of thing, all right. totally terrible. I think you should keep going until we get something awful. Yeah, it's not as good as we'll always have Tom Paris, which is obviously an excellent episode. off lower decks. So we will roll again. The cheek of those people is unbelievable. Come on, can't you roll suspicions, please? So I've just rolled a matter of honour, series 2, episode eight. I mean, that's very good of honour. That is actually pretty good. And it's one of the only good episodes in season two. It is. I really am in the mood for something terrible though, you know. Okay. All right. I don't want it to be too terrible, but I kind of want it to be a bit later. A matter of honour is very good, though, and super important in the way that Klingons get portrayed going forward. It's our 1st mention of gach, for instance. No, it's fabulous episodes. Rob Oman directing it again. It's really great. Really good. All right. We'll try another one. Season two, episode 15, pen pals. Oh, that's sort of average, isn't it? It is very average. We just did average. Try and guess like a bit later. Ooh, this is not later, but I'm super tempted. It's season one, episode 26 The Neutral Zone. Yes, it's simultaneously, absolutely ghastly, and rather good. Yeah, it's really interesting in all sorts of ways, isn't it? It's kind of them setting stuff up a little bit. It's very strange. It's a bit like learning curve. It has 3 rando characters in it that we never see again. That we've never seen, really annoying as well. In fact, one of them does get a mention in lower decks. I think, or may even appear. Come to the conclusion now that everything gets a mention at least once in lower decks. I think it probably does. I think we're going to do it. Why don't we do it? I think it would be great. We can only do it if the 2 of us pay particular attention to the episode and can name the exact minute and second, we get the close up on the pad, which lists all of the Doctor Who's in order. I think they may have removed that for the high definition version. I'm not certain. I will just pay attention, all right? Well, keep an eye out for it. And you know what else? Do you know what else are Neutrasome Scott as well? Fabulous Ron Jones music. Oh, just you wait. That's awesome. Okay, brilliant. Let's do it. Brilliant. All right, will do it. You've been listening to untitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford and Nathan Bottomley. We're online at Untitled Star Trek project.com, where you can find subscription links and links to our social media accounts. Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Sisrin, and the theme was composed by Cameron Laham. This episode was recorded on the 25th of March, 2025, and released on the 28th of March. We'll see you next time for Star Trek the Next Generation, the Neutral Zone. Oh, if there's anything else we can say about this? Yeah, that's the end. Enough of these fucking nebulas, right? Okay. Okay, it's my turn. It's my turn. Boy, boy. boring. So bad. Oh, dear. I mean, why even bother being Star Trek? Do you know when you're in space, you could do anything. They didn't even look out the fucking window. like an entry anything. I mean, are we supposed to be getting used to the ship in that episode? Is that why we were running around it so much? Who knows? Okay hang on. Oh, no, shoes, not me. The shoe. Oh, let me look at the coverage page. I've already shows an our picture. Or for this one. Is it the cheese? Yeah. It's amazing, it could be. But the look on it's the look on Tuvok's face. It's actually pretty great. Like, um, you're going to send it to you. I found, oh, my phone's downstairs. I have to hang on. I found SFX, right? So when Endgame came out, SFX did a full magazine reviewing every episode of Voyager, right? Mark found it the other day when he was going through the cupboards. I went, oh, I'll give that a read. And I knew this was coming up. So I read like all the 1st season reviews. They gave Jatrell like 3 out of 10 right. And this ate. I was like, what planet are you people on? That's so bad, isn't it? Wait a second. What's this one? Okay, but I mean, what has this got going for it is the thing. What's this song called again? It's a look on 2 og's face that really sells it. Okay. Oh, that horrible polar cheese, yeah. Yeah, it's great, isn't it? God. It's vile. In fact, Juvok's faces. Quite appropriate. If you expect me to eat that, Mr. Neelix. Come on, give it a try. Okay, I'm ready. I'm ready. All right, it's the end of the episode.