Who Watches The Watchers

Hey, Joe. Hi. So, we are back at my first love. It's Star Trek the Next Generation, and it is very early on in its imperial phase with series 3, episode 4, who watches the watches. In fact, I think you said last time that you thought that this was the 1st episode of Star Trek, the Next Generation, to actually properly get it right. How did you find it this time round? Well, you know what, Nathan? Untitled Star Trek project has enjoyed a life of fine critique and conversation, and now you want me to sabotage that achievement, to take this podcast into the realms of fear and superstition and chaos. No. I will not do that. I love this episode and so much so that I can remember learning that ridiculous speech when I was like 13 years old or whatever I was. I think this may be the tipping point. I think this is the point where I think we've had a couple of good episodes already, one, 2, and 3 of season three. Yeah, but I think this might be the 1st episode of Star Trek and the Next Generation that gets everything right, absolutely everything right. And it's not the last time this season as well. So I think we're absolutely headed. We on the up, and this is, you know, this is quite an ascent they climb here. I mean, I think this is an absolutely remarkable episode. Like, I like Darmok Moore, I think, because it's higher concept and because of its focus on storytelling and maybe that relationship between Picard and Dathon is really very good. Darwok is more unconventional than this, isn't it? Yeah, that's right It really is unique. Whereas we do this a couple more times, don't we? Like, this is sort of like a go to a planet. The prime directive. you know, are we spoiling the development of these people? I think we may have already done this a couple of times already in its generations run. But I think that this does it incredibly well. And I think there's 2 reasons for that. One is the stroke of genius of making them proto-Vulcans. Now, whatever that means about how humanoids evolve in the galaxy or whatever, what it means is that visa are a bronze age people who are free of beliefs about the supernatural. And that's not a thing that we had on Earth, that is a new thing. But in Star Trek. We've often had the crew arrive and fall foul of some local religious group who will sacrifice them or wants to cause them harm in order to appease their gods or whatever. And here what happens is they take people who lack that and introduce that to them. And so they go from just ordinary people to Star Trek primitive people that we've seen over and over again. And so that becomes the problem, that they've introduced. And I think that's genius. I think when Lico starts to kind of say the gods must want us to do this, the Picard wants us to do this. The Picard will be angry at us. you know we need to find ways of appeasing the Picard. He's just behaving like a standard Star Trek primitive. And he wasn't like that at the beginning of the episode. But what I really like is he's not a bad man, he's just reacting to the circumstances that he's found himself in. He's woken up in heaven and for his misty-eyed vision, the Picard appeared and brought him back to life. Like it's reasonable. What he's thinking is happening is reasonable. That's not the usual approach in Star Trek either. Usually the religious zealots are nutcases, you know, that we're going, oh, please. That's exactly right. They're responding reasonably to new information. And because you get Neuria, who is the leader of the group unbelievably great. The performance is just tremendous. so good And she agrees. She agrees that there's evidence for what Lico has experienced and stuff. So that's the one genius thing. And then the other genius thing, I think, is the way that this foreground human progress, and that's the central tenet of Star Trek, is that we get better, right? And so this episode is about how we get better. And so those scenes on the Enterprise, which are a lot like the scenes in 1st contact with Picard and Lily, I think, where Picard talks to Nuria about making hearts and making bows and improving and explains the difference between her and him on the basis that as time progresses, as history progresses, human beings get better. Now, we doubt that, that's probably not really what's happening. Certainly doesn't seem like that at the moment. But that's. Will you please look out the window, right? But that's Star Trek, and it's that that I love about Star Trek. And this, you know, that's what's in peril here is the march of progress. And perhaps thirdly, it's that religion is one of the things that stands in the way of that progress. And I think that's a really, really bold thing for an American TV program. I was going to say, how bold for the Americans to put out an anti rich. And that's very clearly what it is. There's another thing as well that I think really marks this out is that we've done some of these scenes before. You and I in person. We watched Justice, which is another episode where a member of a primitive society comes up onto the Enterprise, sees the planet from Orbit. But in that one, it's just so terribly written and performed. Paul Patrick Stewart is stiff as anything as he's walking around that member of the Edo. And you've literally got techno god in the sky, shaking the enterprise going, return my child. It's just hideous in comparison. This is so subtly dumb. The scenes where Nuria is walking around and she's just marvelling at the walls movie and the stars in the sky and just it's some of the most beautiful scenes I think we've done so far. It's just gorgeous. And poor Patrick Stewart, who is sublimely good in this episode. I thought he delivers. This might be the point, you know, where he unpacked his clothes. Yeah, I think so. He's gone. Oh, maybe we're on to something. This is actually really good. I'm going to stop having a stick up my butt and actually do some acting. And him trying to negotiate that very difficult situation that he's in and be sensitive and gentle with her as well. And within those scenes, I think you have one of the all-time best narrative rug pools in a next generation episode. And it's that bit where he thinks he's absolutely gotten through to her and then she turns around and says, in a very reasonable way, Picard, you know, we lost all these children. Please, in your benevolence, will you please bring them back to life? And the look on his face. It's not even a big dramatic moment. It's just like, oh god, I just cannot get through to these people. In fact, every ad break, every sort of ad break cliffhanger is like that. You know, like it's something new is happening and something shocking is happening, but it's not peril. Do you know what I mean? It's not some surprise of some kind. It's something developing in the understanding that the Mintarkins have, you know, you know, when religion 1st starts or when Picard 1st realises that the problem is going to be religion or where Nuria doesn't quite get what the limits of Picard's power are, all of that stuff. I don't want to douse the next generation with faint praise, but it is one of those rare occasions where some very deft rising is married with a really excellent guest cast and the 3rd level one which this is superb, is its execution. They go outside in a beautiful location. a chunk of the episode. It's not even like one scene. It's a huge chunk of the episode. It looks absolutely beautiful. You've got a wonderful score in this episode as well. The music and how often do we get to say that? Yeah, yeah. I just think on every level it's firing on all cylinders brilliant. It feels like a mission statement. It does. It feels like, okay, let's pour everything into this. Let's see what we can do. And then, you know, they look at this and go, right, now we're going to do yesterday's Enterprise, and now we're going to do best of both worlds, and it just gets better and better and better. Well, I think we should go, Ian. What do you think? I think so too. I shall be revering you as a goal by the end of the episode. got the hair for it. The Nathan. Before we go in, you know, I have a fledgeling podcast, you know which is on its last legs. Please, the Nathan. Will you nurse it back to hell for me? I can't do that. All right. You bitch. Okay. I will count as in. I should have said after all my efforts, I still can't get through to you. You're still no good at this. I barely make anyone listen to my own podcast. All right. Okay. Five, four, three, two, one, and we're off. Now, the music is Ron Jones, I think, and I didn't check, but it just sounds like him because it has that way of being, um, like like there's some kind of anticipation, something is going to go wrong and we can't tell what, there's a level of urgency here. But it's sort of gentle. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It underscores a lot of it, but it is, there's, there's like a nice flow to the music in a way that, you know, gum series 5. We are just doing those dramatic, you know, going out to the ad breaks. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This, it's continuous and it's kind of useful as well. It's really, it's really probably good. I mean, you and I both have admitted to having the best of both worlds soundtrack at some point somewhere in our house. Yeah, and Ron Jones is pretty good, I think. But he's very good here. Org for you might be the best thing he ever wrote. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it is pretty good. We have engaged the Borg. Oh, sorry, that's not necessary. So we get all of this stuff where we establish who them in Tarkin's R and now we have these sort of terrible scientists that they always make fun of their sort of stupid uniforms in lower decks. You know, you get to be a federation scientist and you wear a uniform and stuff. And this, I mean, they make fun of them, but they still draw and they make them wear them. It's so great. They're explaining. I love this guy who climbs out the window. He doesn't quite, now we're on location. Holy fuck, we're on location. And look, he literally falls... the window, falls down the rocks. Good for you, Palm. Later on, when Lee goes up there. He literally goes, whoa, the way down. I hope they had a crash back waiting for him or something. But you know what? Talk about setting up the plot, right? This is the civilisation. These are the people we're going to see. There's a problem. Let's get there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But we don't can't quite know where we're going yet. Do you know what I mean? Like we don't quite know what's going to happen. And it, well, no, because it could still be just all set on that ballroom base. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Your typical next generation episode will be spending a lot of time in that gray base. Although we did have that impressive bit of location shooting. And remember what we said about series 2, which has one episode that has location, um, shooting in it and it's it's Picard riding a horse on the holodeck or something. It's so bad. like it's so cheap. It really... I was saying to, uh, my other off was watching this for me and he was, and I was going, look how beautiful the location work is. You know, it's absolutely stunning. He goes, and because he watches a lot of TV, right? where they go outside all the time the time. You know, and that's not an unusual thing. I said, yeah, but Star Trek does it like 3 times a year and he went, no, it doesn't. I went, I'm probably sure it does. yeah Patrick Shuart, he had a high wage. They couldn't afford any location work. So we go back here a fair amount. So we've been here for shadows and symbols, I think. Is that what you were saying the other day? Dr. Wykuff. Please come to isolation room four. And I think that Raffi is hanging out here as well when Picard 1st picks her up in series one of Picard. Is it where that fabulous gourd is as well in a ring? Obviously, originally the place where the Gorn was. All the best shows have been there. Generation's swear too? Oh, oh, is it? I think that it is... I think we do go back there quite a bit, I think. And it is just, like in a way, it is, it's Star Trek than Next Generation saying we're going back to basics. And arena is a similar sort of story. Ruffy went there as well. Didn't it? Possibly. End of series 6. is your gift. Oh, okay. Oh, 1st slayer out in the desert. Yeah. Oh, now this was the one part of the production that I could find fault with, and that is that terrible backdrop out the window silly funny, isn't it? When Lico pops his head up. It is really funny. Yeah My God, we're outside again. Let's just bask in the sunshine for a second. Yeah, here we go. And I just think as well, though, right? The look of the Mint Harkens, how they're dressed. pants I don't know. I just think... Wow, they've all got these shirts, right? which are open around the V-neck. So you when Riker wears. Oh, he's got a gray hair. You can say all of his lovely bushy, hairy chest. Oh, it's marvellous. But I mean, look at this. Look how they dress the location. Yeah, yeah. Yep, yep. I think it's really. I think it's great And it's very rare to have 2 characters who aren't one of our regulars have a scene. We end up getting used to that in things like Deep Space 9. But I wonder if it's ever happened at this point. It isn't very common at all. A very quick shorthand because it's father and daughter. So I've got an immediate relationship we can buy into. And the death of the mother, which is important as well. Do you know what I mean? to Lico and to Nuria, you know, like because it becomes a thing about what gods can do. You know, um, yeah, yeah. Will you check out the lighting in this episode as well. Because there is a different style of lighting in series 3 of the Next Generation, I think, than any of the other series. And like the scene set in the Mid the Mintarken habitat, whatever you call it, in their room. So sort of cinematically done. Day and night and lightning, and I don't know, it's just very clear where you are at different, not that, you know, go back to series one and skin of evil, you know, where it was just that coloured backdrop and that's all you got and the overhead lighting. Yeah. They're learning. They're really learning how to make science fiction. There are things that I like about series one and 2 because it is the sort of direction that you never really see again, and there's a way that a house style develops, which hasn't is only really sort of falling into place at this and hasn't really become just the new look. So, I mean, this is impressive visually and more impressive perhaps than anything that we've seen since the pilot, perhaps. I think it's more impressive musically, though, because, like there are other episodes of Next Generation, though, impressive visually, but there aren't that many. They're impressive musically. Oh, here we goes. Look. Yeah, he sticks his head up. Adorable. Look at that. Did you notice as well, that fella, the doctor that's taken up the injured man, who just stood there for ages waiting for me beamed up? Dr. Crusher got out of the way, you know? We're still in the 90s, are we? Oh, look at that. What a fool. Oh yeah, no, it's great. That's not him, though. Surely I want to freeze that. That was amazing, wasn't it? Yeah, and like his twitching and stuff. So this guy is called Ray Wise, and he does come back to Star Trek in a very... I recognise him. He's Arturus in hope and fear. So he's... Bigheaded alien from hope and fear. Much less impressive performance. Oh bless his heart. I quite like that episode though. We'll get that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Dr. Bev's on location, Lou. Oh my god, it's the 1st time I've gone outside. I wonder, you know how you say sometimes when people are on location that their performances are more naturalistic than when they're in a studio. I wonder if that's true of gamesman fan. She didn't do too much there for us to notice, really. She was doing the sort of thing that she does quite well generally. Like, it's when she's sort of explaining someone's prognosis. No, just kind of, you know, treating someone for an emergency and ordering a beam up and stuff, something where it's clear what what's going on. There is, there's a couple of moments, which, of course, I will quote as we go through where she's going, Jean-Luc. We must go down. We must find Palmer. bless her. Oh, yeah. Even that very subtle effect of the observation window in the rock. Yeah, looks really great. Like, I know they might have tied it up for the... I don't know, actually. Of course, we will see a better version of that at the beginning of insurrection, Star Trek insurrection, which also has a duck blind, like has a group of people who are being observed from behind a duck blind. This is way better than... Oh, God. yeah Yeah, yeah, no, miles fed. Look at that, lady. I know. It's so impressive. Hell of a wig, isn't it, that she's got happening there? Grace Kelly was in sick bay for a 2nd there, you know? And then her handsome doctor here. Don't you love how grumpy Patrick Stewart is right this entire episode? I don't think he raises a smile till the last scene. Well, I really like this actually, where he's actually kind of annoyed because she's the doctor. She can just order a beam up. She doesn't need to ask him. So she's made that decision without his permission and she doesn't need his permission. And she's going, before you say anything, blah, blah, blah. We'd already done it, you know, like... And he goes, why didn't you let him die? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. That's a good line. Her her answer is good too. Um, and I guess, like, she's right, isn't she? She's right, but we need to emphasise how important this cultural contamination is because we haven't really seen that sort of thing happening quite the way that it happens here. Oh, that line there, can I just say, I guess I am familiar with that. Dr. Pulaski's work. memory, erasing technique. That harpy. that took my job last year. Did that work? I am aware of it. It is a reference to an actual episode, but I can't remember what episode. It is. I can't remember which one it is. No. But, um, and then I like the fact that she, she literally says the owl in this... I'm not sure if it's got to work. No, we'll give it a go though, you know? The 2nd he wakes up, he's like, I remember everything. Oh, this is just wonderful. When he wakes up, the way this is shot from the bed. Looking up at Picard with the light. The blow around him, the soft light, and he's giving orders, like he's ordering people around, you know. It's just like, you know, the usual. The stock Star Trek god is to have a godlike being come in and affect things. This is just looking at it from this direction. There's so much more interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Because it's the effect of a god on a society rather than a god just manipulating a society. No, exactly. Yeah, that is so much more... It's really, it's so good. Like, I just can't get over how good it is. Like, it's that myth of progress and stuff. Like that's, I just love that about Star Trek. That's why I watch Star Trek. You know, it's what sets Star Trek apart from space shows is that we get better and that's what it's about. And in a way, 90s Star Trek forgets that. Um, but this. It really does. Do you know, I was thinking about this because so much of this episode is talk and it's riveting, yeah. And they trust for it to be interesting as talk without putting in any action sequences. There's him firing the boat at the end and that is it. If this was a mid-season Voyager episode, you would have spaceships coming in at some and shooting or a gun battle or something. I just think they trust the intelligent viewer at this point. But it's also because Voyage is in a hostile place and trying to get home so it's never on missions like this, like it never interacts with people like this. Think about how insulting the native inhabitants of the planet on basics in basics. You know, how insults are now portrayal. Yeah. Well, they're just sort of going, oh, God, they're waiting spears. It's super embarrassing. Whereas these people, and that's really interesting too. like bronze stage. like you look at their their hunts and stuff are all made out of wood. It's hard to imagine that much would survive for future archeologists to see. Do you know what I mean? They have some metal tools. Most things are made of wood. You know, like it's, it's literally bronze age and, but they are they have sophisticated clothes, they're weaving, all of that sort of thing. They build buildings, comfortable buildings. And that's part of the story that's being told, isn't it? That, that, it's about progress and we see them part of the way there. Just think as well, the drama inherent in this episode is they want to paint him as the villain, right? By the end, he is pointing a weapon at somebody and saying, we will go back to the old ways and all of this, but it's so plausible. He has woken up in a situation he cannot possibly comprehend. He's trying to interpret that in the only way, you know, how, by looking to history to similar things that they used to believe back then. And he's bringing it. So now, I just think he, I just think they ducked a bullet by making him such a plausible character. And such a likeable one. I mean he's lost his wife. He's bringing up. He's lovely with his kids still. Yeah, yeah, yeah. bringing up his daughter by himself All of that stuff is great. And like, we'll get there, but the moment where he realises what he's done. Oh my god. That is an amazing... She holds up the blouse. Yep. And he starts crying. Like he just starts crying. It's so good. So good. Oh I love this. Watch this now. When Troy and Rocker beam down, right? And Marina Sosis and Jonathan Frakes look at each other and smile like a massive smile. We're outside. My God. I think it's more, it's more, what the hell do we look like? That's the smile, yeah. They're having real fun. Yeah, a lot of chest hair. How did I notice that? My God. In fact, look at those shorts. He's swinging to the right right now. John, look at his lovely butt. I'm sorry, guys, but and look, oh my god, that is a really gorgeous shot camera shot. Yeah, with that rock. That's the rock that everyone kind of remembers. But they're shooting from below. They're moving the camera. These are not things we often do with the next generation. We've got more mountains. This comet, this stuff is great too. Where, where, um, she says that Mintarken men walk behind the women, not to not because of subservience, but because you need to negotiate with the woman in order to get the man's services. And Riker smiles hugely and goes, yes, that is a very sensible ration, which... Like, he's thinking, I might stay there. I might vacation here if I can. But, you know, we did Angel one. We've done Planet other women before. It was fucking hideous. This is a matriarchal society. It's so much, it's just so much better done. Yeah. It's very light matriarchy, isn't it? Because you've got the old guy. But that's how it should be. And you've got... Like, in a way, making a matriarchal kind of undersells, the fact that Nuria is made the leader, and she's just the leader because she's incredible. Like, it's such a great performance. She's so good. I was getting sort of Carolyn Seymour vibes from her. She's... Oh, it was Carolyn Seymour for a 2nd. And she opened her mouth and that plummy English accent did not come. No, and I knew that Pamela, I knew that the Carolyn Seymour's only into episodes. She is in an episode of Space 1999 that I don't remember saying called Dorzak for God's sake. Is it series two? I don't remember. I meant to look it up. Doors like that. It sounds like a Freiburger episode to me. I did see the Picard. Yeah, you restored me back to life. It's so interesting. It's so good isn't it? And what I love as well is I mean, I messaged you about this. There's loads of, we're not told in dialogue everything that's happening in this episode all the way through. There's a whole sequence in a minute where Troy comes in, takes them all away and there's just no words at all. It's all just playing out like it would in a field. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, Star Trek tends to really overrely on dialogue, doesn't it? And this rational thing, you know, like maybe it's a dream and he says, well, that's not reasonable. People don't share dreams. And then Riker says, well, is that any, you know, more less reasonable than believing in God. And maybe he was going to win then, but then they drag Palmer in in order to add some more. ups the states brilliantly, doesn't it? Because we are trying to avoid cultural contamination. Here's the bloody poison. And the life is at stake. you know, like the guy and. But this, the contamination is worse than we expected. The Mintarkans are starting to believe in a god. And I always wish we'd gone to the ad. The one that they've chosen. is you. That's a great way. I mean, Picard's like, it looks like, utterly horrified. We thought Andrew was bad. Now it's me. Imagine if it was mariner from lower action. Yes, it's so great. And then this guy who is the world's shitest anthropologist, who just says, let's just go and get Palmer and then we'll hand them the 10 commandments and then we'll go on our way. It's just like, you fucking kidding me? Watch freaks and certes as well. They are really relaxed in this episode in a way that we're not usually in Star Trek next generation. I don't know. There's just some magic in the air here. It's almost like everybody, everybody knew this was really good. Yeah, yeah. I wonder why. It is really good, but like, like in a sense, it is just the sort of same sort of thing that we usually do. But I think it's the stakes, isn't it? And like, I think one of the greatest moments in Star Trek is the bit at the end. Well, obviously, obviously, where they're just talking. like there's no pretence. We're just, we've just told you the truth. Here's why we were here, you know, one day... Oh, the very last thing you mean. Magic. so good. Always remember my people. where he goes, well, always. And then his hand just closes around her. Oh my god, it's beautiful. But like, not just the actors. I just think the designers, everybody. It's just giving this 100% for one week. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, imagine if they hadn't shot it on location. Yes, it's this. This is a set, but I would I could believe this wasn't like... Oh, they do good lighting. Like they do good sort of outdoor style lighting, but, um, yeah there's a set. But this conversation where they start to theorise about what God wants and what God can do for them. Like, and that's the clincher. Yeah, this is what he could do for us. We lost all those people. Yeah, yeah. Oh, I love this secret. I love the music in this series as well, where they tie up the old man and take Palmer away. Yeah, that's really great. But this thing now, they're tying someone up and like you've got Riker and Troy saying, this man's a, you know, like, why are you tying a person up? This is not what you would have done 5 minutes ago, but now that God has come in, this stranger has to be tied up and you're tying him up in order to please God. You know, the people start behaving like Star Trek primitive races you know. Have you noticed how Palmer's face is? It was granite gray as the Voyager observation room. Yeah, yeah. It doesn't look well at all, does it? It's probably just a bit dirty. And even this is all plausible. We know she checks the sundial. So she has to go back and check it. She then sees Ryka taking Palmer away and then they capture Troy all makes pence. Yeah, it's really good. But yes, we just have to let this person go. Like it's wrong to do this. This is wrong. I wonder what that old man's thinking right now. We played a game? What's happening? So much location work. I can't believe it. wonderful. But that's it. They've gone, right, we can't go outside for the next 15 episodes. We've used all the location. But it was worth it. absolutely. And that little lawn in the survivors. That was it. all we could afford this year. Oh, my God. Do you know what? I've just remembered there's a bit in a minute. I'll forget when it's on, so I'm just going to say it now, where Data's trying to talk to Troy, but she's surrounded by Mint Harkens, and she's just going, I love that. And he goes, does that does that mean affirmative? Yes, data. Yes, so stupid. I thought to myself, are they even getting the banter? Because trust me, we've done some crass jokes that date is expressed in series one or two. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I like this too. I think this is really well done. Like, it's just like all he has to do is hide for a second. He just has to be out of sight for a 2nd and it's just terrifically well done, I think. Like, it's just well shot, you know, like, we can easily understand what's supposed to be going on. There's a great moment where he's like, um, this guy, um, the, the who has a name, but I can't remember what it is, the guy with the bow. We can see, he can, we can see Riker, but he can't, in shot. It's really good. There's just this very handy nook here for him to put palm already. But it needs to be there. Like it actually seems to be actually there. Did you notice as well? in one of those high angle shots. They got the sky in. I bet they waited for a while. They managed to get an eagle flying around just at the top there. There's always an eagle when they shoot here. Yeah, but see, that's great in that shot. You know, like and and he, you know, he's walking along and and Riker disappears and then he walks in front of where Riker was like that's actually quite well done, I think. They just can't make the beamings dynamic, though, can they? They like have to hold their position. Yeah, how 5 seconds. But, you know, in that shot without a cut, he walks in front of where they were, where the beam in happened, and he was in shot during the beam in. So that is actually technically a little bit more impressive than it seems. I need to say this, you know, because I don't say it very often because look, you see Riker there in his normal uniform, I don't fancy him at all, but as a mentor, I want to have sex with him so badly. I don't know what it is about. That's a ment talking. I think the hairy chest has. got messy hair, you know? sort of hairy and messy. It reminds me a bit of that evil Romulan or is it Vulcan? Oh, that's racist. In Picard. Oh, you mean Harry Tread away? You the one I mean? Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, very pretty. Okay, we're about to head into the best part of the series now where Picard realises, oh, okay, I'm going to have to talk to these primitives. Yeah, yeah. and try and convince them that I'm not a gold, which as a one-line pitch for a Star Trek episode, is gone. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think I think that what's great about it is that they never patronise or belittle these people, like they never think that they're stupid, like at any point. There is one, Nate Fern, right? would have done that. Well, I think that it helps that they're proto-Vulcans. Like, I think that calling them proto Vulcans before we even meet them gives us sort of some level of expectation. And given that this is, you know, people who are rational, who are now deciding to adopt a religion, that even this, you know, I don't want to... before she said that line, he said that he was going to hurt her. And then she had about 5 seconds where you could just see her thinking. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just it's such a great... It's really good. I just I feel like I've seen her in something before. She is she's got a real... she's absolutely a superb guest star that maybe we overlook. Anyone who thinks we're talking sort of hyperbole, please go back and watch justice and watch that performance as that woman is walking around the enterprise and then watch because it's that sort of childlike glee she has in a minute. Yeah, where she's like, oh, as the doors open, you know, and I'm just like, oh, mate, this is just perfect. But she's clearly very smart. Like she's very smart, she's thoughtful. She's a good leader, and she gets it so quickly, which is why the rug pool works so well. And a little bit scared as well. It's all of that in there They do it again, don't they? Homeward? Is it homeward? Where that guy... less effectively. Yeah, again, not very well, but they do do it. But this, like they fucking anthropologist is kind of saying, why don't you go down and just tell them how to live. It's just like, are you fucking kidding? Like, why? I'm a captain. I'm like a navy captain. I'm telling you your job, like the whole point of the duck blind was not to have this happen. And interestingly, I was watching his performance, and this is the sort of stock performance you get in next year. performance this man's given, you know? You can actually make the comparison between someone given a great and an average performance in this episode. And then like, oh, here's my speech. Yeah, yeah. Wow, you expect me to sabotage that achievement. It's so good. Send them back to the Dark Ages. But then there's that list of things he says that the, that religion could lead to in holy wars and inquisitions and stuff. and and, and, and, when he hears the list, but that's the list of things that it actually has led to, you know, in our history. Yeah, yeah. And that's the other thing too. You remember when there was that sort of new atheism thing and it was Dawkins and Dennet and Richard, Sam Harris and all of these sort of terrible people and it was all kind of, oh, you know religion's not real and we've just discovered that and it's like a big deal. And like this, the assumption here is that religion isn't true. You know, no one on Star Trek, the next generation is religious. And when we do introduce religion, we introduce space religion where there are real gods who are wormhole aliens, you know. So we never have just religion where people believe things that aren't real because of tradition or... Yeah, yeah. So, so, but the assumption here is that religion isn't true and that that the fact that religion is re is breaking out among these people is a huge disaster and we have to find a way of fixing it. And how you see that so explicitly by descent amongst the mentor because violence... Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it is like it's them theorising about what God wants. You know, God wants us to mistreat this person. God wants us to sacrifice her. You know, we have to harm Troy in order to placate God, because Palmer disappeared, you know, like all of that kind of calculus that they're engaging in, which is mental, like awful. Um, you know, has to be stopped. It's amazing. Like, we've got a new religious way of thinking, breaking out among these people, and we have to stop it. We can't hear it in this scene. But there's a violin that comes in as she's exploring the ship is just beautiful. She's so good, isn't she? She's so good. It's when he's like, oh, God, do I say my name? I am Jean-Luc. Picard. You know, the Picard. I love history action too, where he says, no, no, you mustn't kneel to me. That's and that's the cliffhanger. She's kneeling to him. the cliffhanger. The exchange I love is you do not wish it. I do love it. do not deserve it. It's so good. And even just that, like, hold my hand. And I do love the fact that she's an older woman and he's an older man. Like there's roughly similar age is, I think. I don't know, but do you know what I mean? She's not a young woman. Um, and just... Ah, Tingo, caution this when he's going... length of my hand holding her hand. it's beautiful. Oh, my word. That stuff about connection that I said. in Dharmok. You get it here. But like it's so tender. It's so, this is Star Trek. I'll tell you what, this is Star Trek during what Star Trek does best. But for me, it doesn't have that tweeness that we've seen creep into other examples of things that we've watched, you know? It's just very sensitive. Yeah, yeah. I think it's beautiful. Look, he gently just pushes her face. Look at me. I am not a supreme being. Oh, I love the way she jumps when they're done. a wondrous place. Even the walls avail your command. Jesus, their doors, you have doors, you know, like it's fine. And do you know what? Even my overall, the staunchest critic of Star Trek, watched this scene in a minute where he's explaining about progress, about going from bows to weapons. And he, even he said, that was very well written. Yeah, yeah. I was like, bloody hell, the highest brace possible. It is really good, isn't it? It's really, really properly good. It's like, you know, I would have thought that would be an impossible task in one scene to explain the progress from the Mintarkans to the Enterprise. He does it brilliantly. It's beautifully done. I love, we see this, you know, we're seeing it from far above and she says, yet I do not fall. And she understands it. Like I never thought I would see the clowns from this side. Like all of that stuff is so good. I will say though, they do seem to be very close to that planet. It's very near. That planet has been put in. I think it was probably a less impressive planet originally. But it looks quite impressive now. Yeah, it really does. And I'm pleased. Sometimes I'm pleased they're brushing things out. Make something that's almost flawless. Flawless. Well, I mean, the scene with Lily is similar, isn't it? Because it's doing a similar thing. Um, like Lily and Picard are less distant from one another in time and in understanding things. You know, she's been constructing a spaceship. He doesn't give her the answers. He lets her reason it out as well. He gives her all of the bare bones of what she needs to put it all together. Some of it she's thinking for thinking of for the 1st time. It's kind of like, well, why don't you still live in caves or why did they live in caves and you live in arts? And she goes, I guess we didn't know how to make hearts. You know, like all of that. She's figuring it out and we see it. And this is him explaining how we get from them to him. And he starts speeding up. Like he's talking quicker and quicker and mating the links more and more quickly. The clincher is. He puts her in his position and says, well, what would one of those cave dwellers do if they met you now? Do you know what I loved? It's like, what would she think? Put yourself in her place? She cannot kill a horn bike. Like the fact that it's a, like the female pronouns are used. I just think is amazingly good as well. Who the hell wrote this episode? I want to know. I've got to find out. It's a great... Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, I think this scene is really, really great. And like, like, written by Richard Manning and Ham's Beimler Baimler goes over to DS9. He's the one that writes with Ira Bear for 5 years. Um, Yeah. I mean, this is properly good, and it's really properly Star Trek isn't it? And like this is the rug pool, isn't it? I don't feel you. I understand you. But what she doesn't understand yet is exactly what that means. Do you know what I mean? And this. My people, my people once lived in caves and then they build, learn to build huts and in time to build ships like these. Like, it's so great, and we're not there yet. We're we're at the bit, we've learned to build hearts and stuff but we haven't learned to build ships like this and Picard is telling us that we will, that at some point in the future. That's the last scene, isn't it? It's, well, because maybe one day my people walk over the stars. Oh, yes, I have no doubt he will. And that's what was under threat. that they were going to become religious nutcases who were too busy kind of massacring one another to find the stars. But what's great is that so they reach their common ground there. She understands why everything is so impressive around her and how how they got there. But she still doesn't understand what they're capable of, which gives us a sting in the next seat because she still thinks, yes, I understand how we've reached you. Yeah, but I don't know that you can't bring people back from the dead and particularly since this kind of proves, um, uh, Lico story. Do you know what I mean? Like her experience validates Lico's story and Lico's story is that I was brought back to life. Oh, it's a stargazer. Look at that. And of course that's how we saw it. right? He fell from that great height. Of course he thought he was going to die. And then he wakes up in heaven. That's right. You know, the natural conclusion I would think is my goal, Joe Obviously, I was too amazing to die. to bring me back to life. And this, it is such a rug pull. It's terrible, isn't it? Like, it is such a moment. breaks my heart. Yeah, yeah. And then she goes, why have we just pleased? Again, she's already thinking religiously. It's what we were trying to solve. We thought we'd fixed it. And then I just, I just love the scene in Sick Bay where they take him and Palmer dies. No, no, it's Mary. It's, um, the... Oh, Mary. sorry. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And but then she understands. She gets it. So then she can go back down. I mean, it's a good thing Mary did die. Otherwise, they wouldn't have had that evidence. At the climactic point where Troy's life is in maximum danger and then, oh, and I'm preempting it all now. The glorious moment, the hero moment where Picard just steps forward and goes, look, if this is the proof you're going to need then kill me. You know, I will sacrifice my life to stop you people, you know falling back into something. If that's what it takes to prevent you from developing this religion and never experiencing what I experience in the stars. You know, like Nathan, there are so many ways they could have fucked this episode up. We have seen, and we will see other religious episodes where it's deeply insulting in both directions. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And they should just look to this. We've already done it. We won't do religion again. This is just perfect, you know. Troy is so good in this too. Like, she's really great. And this is kind of terrifying. I think in three. They really figure out and give Marina Surtis great stuff to do. And then they forget again. It's so annoying. Yeah. But that's a good cliffhanger too. her standing up and just seeing what they're preparing for her. Yeah, this. So we're not... It is nice as well that you see just, you know, the terrible Barren. Yeah, like. But he is, you know, distressed and he's a person. And then and then she kind of goes, all right, go away now because Nuria and Picard need to have a conversation. Off you go. You see, um, Dr. Beverly's hunky nurse there on his pad. He looked a bit embarrassed, though, you have to watch all this you know. I'll just tap away on my pads, you know. He was raising a clinical eyebrow. And she reacts to the door to see someone die. Yeah, yeah, she has to see it. Yeah. And that's a beautiful shot. Look at that. A welcome-posed shot with the 2 of them looking at, you know with... The nurse still looks a bit awkward, though. Yeah, he's doing his eyebrow again though. Oh, could I just say right? Sorry to spoil this beautiful moment, but throughout my entire childhood? I was so curious as to what that red and blue liquor was on the back. I think one of them may be distilled courtressing. Probably. She just drinks it. But then it's always fall, though, do you notice? It always fall. And this. I actually think this is kind of beautiful as well. You couldn't save her, just the way that we couldn't save the people from the floods. And so you experience loss and you experience grief the same way that we do and we did recently. Remember, it was children. 4 children died in those floods last year. The simplicity of that line, though. You do have limits. You are not masters of life in death. Perfect. Abs in a series that is typically very verbose. That is so economic. really good. I mean, he sort of explains it, but it is. It's kind of like we are the same. Like, we're the same. Yeah, you are not superior beings. You're remarkable, but you're not superior. And I think that's wonderful. It's so good. But you know, the delivery of those lines could be so pony. Yeah, yeah I will not stop saying how great that actress is. And this, too, like, you don't want to kill me, Lico, you don't want to kill me. How do you know what God wants? How do you know? And like, I think that... We could say this to many people right now. That's the point. You're calling things are happening. That's it. But OG doesn't want him to do it either. Because once at risk here isn't her life, it's him becoming a murderer. You know, like that's that's the danger that's happening here. Whoa, unchieves, does it? But what if it's the wrong thing? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. She's, she fears it too, because that's what happened. for no reason. That's right. My mother's gone and my father is a murderer, you know? Yeah, and there they are. The look of relief on Troy's face. She's like, oh, thank God. It's really good, isn't it? That's great. someone else can take the arrow now. There's one thing too. There's one really cheesy moment, which I think is a little stroke of genius, which is where Nuria throws herself in front of Picard in order to say what are you talking about? And it's just like... No, Lego, no. And you kind of go, oh, we're doing that, are we? We're going to kill her. Like fucking hell. And we say, no, we're not going to do that. He puts her to one side. Forcibly put her to one side and says, no, we're not doing that. That's not how we're going to resolve this episode. And then he just, you know, his chest's right out, isn't it? Yeah, he's like, go on, if that's what you need. If that's what you need. Yeah. I mean, Patrick Stewart must have got this script and been like what garbage have you been giving me the last 2 years? Oh, dear. I mean, it's a great year for him. I think we get yesterday's Enterprise and best of both worlds this year as well. Yeah, but he's doing great. And Sarek. But this isn't flashy. This is just him doing a really good job. Yeah. I mean, this is just a technically like a midseason episode. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. But I think it is a stunningly good one. It's the course correction episode, though. you're right. Absolutely. Yeah. Or this is a, oh, wow. This is how... This is how good we can make this. Let's aim for this. I think that's, you know, you reach a new home. The ceiling is going up and up. The floor's looking further away. Yeah. Which you remember, we were crawling along the floor for quite some time. We were. We really were. The ceiling looked like so far away. But like, this is what... Oh, bloody hell. Dathon did as well. And OG stops it. Doesn't it? OG pushes him out of the way, so his aim goes wild and it doesn't kill him, and this shot where she shows the blood to him, and his lip quivers and he just starts crying because he realises... don't eat anything. done. It's so good. So great. Oh my god. Can I say it? Because it's the only time it's ever said. Dr. Crusher has repaired her with her usual skill. My injury with her usual skill. so great. Between scenes and well, well done, Dr. Crush. This scene is great because now they're meeting like equals right? It's so good. Like, because there's... You think you'll still get a telling off, though, from the Federation. No, I don't think so. I think he solved the problem. Like, it was an accident. It wasn't his fault. The guy fell out of the thing, the guy, you know, the thing, you know, the dark blind, malfunctioned, all of that sort of thing. So no one's to blame for this. And he solved the problem. And this, like, why would someone so advanced want to learn about us? And he says, well, because you're us. You know, we want to learn about you because we learn about us that way. That's so great. Why would you hide from us? And then legally, because their presence affected us. But he says the way it affected me. Yeah. And so he can explain the prime directives to her and they can understand why why it's there. But it doesn't. Yeah, there's so much you could teach us. And then he explains. That woman on the right, look at her. She's like, I will be in shock. I did get in the makeup chair. right? She sort of edged into the show. Oh, not even the star. It's wonderful, isn't it? It's like we will see you there. We will see you there one day. So that cloth, even all of this, Nathan, this could be so twee. This could be so Sakarin. It's just so delicately done. Well, I just think the 2 of them are beautiful together, like him and her, like he's touching her hand. Do you know what I mean? She's touching his hand. She, and he grabbed it before. Remember my people and I always will. His enormous hand in hers, just clutching her hand. That is just terrific. So do you know where we've seen that cloth recently? Picard? No, it's on his chair in 1st contact. It's on the chair. The Mintacon clock. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so they keyfad. I don't think... Oh, Ron Jones. And Marvin Rush was the director of photography in that one. Okay. He's great. He went on to actually direct episodes. He did the Thor. Oh, wow, okay. I knew he had a good visual eye. Chip Chalmers. Chip Chalmers was 1st director assistant director. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Chip Chalmers did a lot of other work before we started. He only directed a candle, didn't he? But amongst them was one of your favourites. Take me out to the hola sweet. Okay, yeah, yeah. Another one where we're outside a lot. That is just an absolute... so good, isn't it? It's so good. I said fires on all cylinders at the start and just watching it through again and taking it apart and the structure of it, the language they use, the subtlety of the performances, the message everything. It's just absolutely superb. So good. Yeah. I'm so pleased with, you know, how many times have we done this where I've raved about something and then we've watched it and gone on, you know, what was I going through in my teens to think that was a classic. That is a classic and yeah. Wow. Just a... All right, it's the end of the episode and so it's time for us to find out where we're going next. It was my choice, this episode, and a truly excellent choice it was. And so I guess it's time for you to address the balance. What series? Are we going to be choosing from this time? Please say enterprise. What am I like? Well, Enterprise will be in there. What do I like to do every now and again? Everything. That's right. We never know where we're going to end up. Okey-dokey. Oh, so, oh, no, it's, oh, God, it's so unmemorable. I'd forgotten that we'd covered it. I was about to say, wow, that could be interesting. Voyager, season four, episode six, the Raven. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. I can barely remember doing that. I do see it occasionally on our website and think, oh, we did that did we? Okay. I swear when I do this, you know, you set the parameters of the randomiser to episodes we've already done. Season one, episode 15 of Deep Space Nine Progress, which was great. That was great. You know, do you remember that big, ugly tree? Oh, no. Oh this is a terrible episode. Oh, we have to do it. Do we have to go? I'm really just got loads of Rosalyn Chow in it, so that's a good thing. It's D-space 9, season six, episode 24. Times Orphan. Oh, no. It's the one where Molly falls down that portal and then gets sent back to them. A feral adult. Yeah, yeah. I mean, are you in a mood for that? I don't know. I might be in the mood for it next time. Maybe. I just, I just remember this, this scene of them, because obviously they have to re-educate her. She been on that planet ages and she's, you know, she's a savage basically. Yeah. Keiko's got this ball and she's going, it's like play school. This is a ball, Marley, which you like the ball, Marley? No. Oh, no. But do you know I know you, though? You watch this shit. And I'll find something out. Oh, there was these great moments in it. I almost want to watch it, but actually, we haven't done too many shit, DS9s, have we? No, not for a while. Oh no, the last one we did was move along home. I might have to reevaluate my feelings on this show. I quite fancy it actually. Would you reckon? Let's do it. Why not? We've done a lot this time, but who cares? We've got a lot more to do yet. Exactly. Would you like the bottle, Nathan? I would like... Oh, boy, oh, boy. If you love that, all right. So, yeah. So I'm the person who loved section 31. Because everyone else heard it. I mean, I mean, even I'm surprised. Even I'm surprised that it's been as people have been as harsh as they have. I haven't seen it. I mean, it's it's very odd. Do you know what I mean? Like it's not a movie and there's too many characters. look amazing? Yeah, it looks really great. Like it's, but it's sort of a bit of a sort of grim, you know, like it's, it's basically kind of suicide squad. It's kind of like if you'd had another series, like you're doing Strange New Worlds, you're doing lower decks and then you're kind of doing this and it, like it was a series, like they introduce like these 7 characters who are all really high concept in like fun, new ways. Um, There's this Irish Vulcan, who's really, the Tesla, a robot driven by a tiny microscopic person in a pod. He's got like a really super annoying Irish accent and he's terribly gay. And, and like, um, uh, Michelle, you know, cousin Michelle's running a bar and she's got, she's got this little gay Twinkie guy who is her kind of sidekick who is one of the aliens from let that be your last battlefield. So yeah, off his face is black. And he's super gay, like he's fabulously gay. There's nothing they won't do. And like, so you've got too many characters and stuff. they introduce them all. There's that really, really funny guy who I 1st seen from Veep, who has been in other things, but I can't remember his name, and he's really great. And he's like a change shape shifter or whatever. And the male lead is like super handsome and he's like an augment and everyone has these sort of massive kind of backstories and stuff. And it is just, you know, the, the, we're setting up a show where the federation sends them off to do, um, like heists and shit and like find, you know, like stop this bioweapon going on the market or whatever. And so, so it's not section 31 in the, you know, brutal leftist critique of American imperialism, of deep safe side, or the shitty version. Is it Suicide Squad? That's what Montanason said, I think. Because then, because there's the Enterprise version of Section 31 which is just that guy in a flashing Mac on the top of a fucking building talking to Reed. Do you know what I mean? Like that sort of shitty version. And so this is not, this isn't proper section 31 and section 31 was a bit more gritty and stuff in, you know, discovery series 2. But here it's fun section 31 and so they're just going to do heists every week. And so I forget that stuff what's happening anyway. Like, do you know when Sloan turned up in Bashir's quarters? And he set out this enormous political chess game before the episode's even started and this year is just basically playing all the moves that have been set out for him. Like, that's really fun and really great and all that politicing. But I figured all of this suicide squad stuff was happening as well. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's just a romp, like, consistent, sort of romp. And I guess the weird thing about it is, like, you go in there expecting a film, but what you really get is kind of like, it's a little bit like serenity. You know how serenity is like Firefly season two. Yeah, but it's all sort of condensed into a film and so it doesn't really kind of work or make much sense. And like surrounding is better than this, I think, probably. But this is kind of like series one of new Star Trek spinoff that would have happened, if it hadn't have been for COVID and, you know, cousin Michelle's availability now that she's won an Oscar. And so, um, so they don't do enough to turn it into a film. And so so like there are too many people in it. It doesn't really sort of properly work in all sorts of ways. But I think I would have watched the shit out of it had it been a series. Like, I just think it would have been fun. people should watch it that way, though. It was like, this is effectively like a pilot. Yeah. Well, yeah, I mean, I think that's the worst thing about it is that it just, that it doesn't do what it promises to do. It doesn't really, there's hard to, you know, the only reason to do this now. The reaction has been really hostile. These people don't understand Star Trek at all. What does that even mean? What are you people talking about? But Star Trek can be lots of different things. Do you know what I mean? Like, but, but like we just watched, so we've just watched an episode that is very centrally Star Trek, which is the space problems people. And then go and watch Change in Face of Evil. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right. Utterly different. Yeah. And so, and and you've got Rachel Garrett as well is one of the characters, but it's set, you know, long before the battle or whatever. I haven't quite got the timelines there. but she's much younger. We know what's going to happen to her with that big bit of shrapnel. Shrapnel in a head. knife in a head that comes out of the exploding thing. And they do allude to that. It is definitely the character and her job is she's the Starfleet person who has to kind of rein them in a beard. Um, But she's sort of cool and stuff as well. I don't know. I will give it a watch. I'll give it a watch. Yeah. It just isn't the atrocity that everyone kind of claimed it was, I think. I thought it was pretty fun. Never are. No, no. Except a night in Sick Bay. Which is really great.