Maneuvers

Hey, Joe. Hi. Well, we're back aboard Voyager this week, and we are in series 2 back when it's still good. Yep. And we are watching the sequel, I think, to an episode that we've already done that was series one, episode 11 state of flux. Now this is series 2 episode 11 manoeuvres, and also the prequel to an episode we've already done, which was alliances, which is coming up soon, which sort of picks up on all of this stuff and the Kazon and all that boring stuff that's happening with them. How did I find this episode? I remembered it being an absolute classic. It's not an absolute classic, but I really enjoyed it. And just for 2 words, really. Martha Hackett. Yeah, she's such. She's legendary. There's a reason they brought her back twice after she was killed off. That's awesome. Yeah, she's really great. Well, I realise we don't have enough big melodramatic camp pantomimic villains in Star Trek. Now, I don't think Star Trek fans like that. sort of thing, because you're supposed to take this all very seriously. Fuck me, whenever she's on the screen, it lights up this show doesn't it? Yeah. I think villains tend to be the thing that you have in the movies yeah, in the films, which is what Lower Decks makes fun of in the 2 crisis point episodes that it does. So it is a little bit unusual having a semi-regular villain. I mean, Deep Space 9 went for it and had camp villains. And we love them. And we did, but there was no real camp female villain. There was obviously the female shapeshifter, but she wasn't as much fun, I think, as Cesca is. called a female. She was quite androgynous, really. wasn't she? Yeah, but I think she gets credited as female shapeshift during the show. She clearly got, you know, she has breasts. She brought her breasts with her. Um, I think what happens early on, this is still Voyager, this is before it decides to be something else before it decides to ditch all of this stuff, which it does at the end of this season? really, doesn't it? With a series 2, series 3, two, part of basics, parts one and two. And then it just sort of heads off into the galaxy doing perhaps what it should always have done. Because one of the things is that this very clearly makes no sense at all. I mean, we have been travelling. You know, for months and months, I think Janeway says 10 months at this and we haven't gotten anywhere. We're still meeting up with the same people all the time, and that becomes much more obvious in alliances later on in the season which is a bit silly. And I guess we could just sort of wear it and enjoy having sort of semi-regular recurring villains, I suppose. It's a problem, isn't it? It's a bit of a problem because I think this is probably the most interesting period of Voyager forging out its own identity. But in doing so, it completely makes the mockery of the premise behind the show. But like, why can't we just cover it with a line? Oh dear, we're out of energy supplies. We literally need to find some. Until then, we can't really go to warp and we're stuck in this area of space for half a season. There you go. One line that explains why we're here. Do all of this story and then move on. Yeah. Yeah, I guess they could have done that. I mean, you know, this is a sequel happening a year later. to something. So, you know. colour in caretaker? Like they've gotten, they've gotten nowhere since then. I think he's in Caretaker. Oh, really? Because I think he and Janeway meet for the 1st time in state of Flarks, and he still introduces himself to Janeway for the people who weren't here last year, and she does a kind of you know, we know each other. I don't know why you're doing that. I guess the other thing too is that there is a problem with the actual premise. Part of the fun of this episode is the fact that Belana and Chakotay are still Maquis. And obviously that was never, ever going to last because the Maquee is an alpha quadrant phenomenon that makes sense in that context. By the time we go into the Delta Quadrant, All that we have is a kind of shared background and stuff like that. And I think that works really well. Like, I think that Belana and Chakotay are really good here and having Belana sticking up for Chakotay, kind of interceding on his behalf with Janeway and stuff like that. All of that stuff, I think, is really good. It gives us scenes with Kate and Roxanne, which are really, really great. I think Chakotay is really good in this, like before he sort of gave up, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He's really great in there. No, no. Beltran's great in this as well. Like, the same worries interrogated. We'll talk about it when we get there. He's fantastically good in that scene. Like, sarcastic and smiling his way through the pain and niggling at colour. It's wonderful that scene. Yeah, it's really good, isn't it? So, like, I guess to me, I think there was just a little bit too much sitting at consoles barking techno babble. Star Trek for you. more so, I think, than other Star Treks. And I think there is a kind of there's a bit of sameness about it. It's not as clever, I think, as state of flux, which has some interesting twists in it. And it clearly just given the title, the titles manoeuvres, it kind of wants to be like state of flux, it wants to have the characters out manoeuvring each other. of that really works. And because everything is something that we've seen before, there's no kind of strangeness. It's not very Star Treky, I think is the thing. Oh, no wonder I liked it so much. What I think does make sense about the Marquis in the Delta Quadrant is when you have a character like Cesca, who thinks outside the box who doesn't want to play by Federation rules, who defects, who joins forces with the villains of the Quadrant. And that's really interesting. Like that makes sense of the marquee being in the Delta Quadrant. And yeah, what you were saying earlier, the decision they make, I don't think is the decision for the best. They basically decide to stop making Star Trek Voyager and start making Star Trek the Next Generation lawyer from series 3 onwards. And what does work in this episode is they are showing consequences of previous episodes and they ditch all of that as well from series 3 onwards. We're on a sort of reset button with every episode and they are looking at where all of these characters come from. So, like you say, Jakotay and Torres in the marquee, and the consequences of Cesca being B'lana's best friend. She says that in this and Cesca being Chikotay's girlfriend or lover, which is really interesting. They don't do none of this later on. When this season is over, when Pillar leaves this show, they decide that none of this is working. I think it is working. I just don't think they've quite got the oomph or something in the show to raise it to the next level. What they should have done was go, okay, here's all the stuff that works into Michael Jonas being a traitor. Cesca being a villain, you know, Marge Carla, this great camp baddie. But let's refine it. Let's take what works and then let's run with it. That's what DS9 did, right? As we watched DS9, it took all the elements that work, ditched all the elements that didn't, and just constantly evolved it until it was, you know, series 4 to 7 of DS9, absolute bloody gold. Yeah. I think it's a shame. It's a shame that they got rid of all this stuff. I think what they needed to do was what they did do, which is move on from the Kazon and do some other things. And the way that Voyager turns out over at 7 years is that it does go on a journey and it goes from place to place and experiences different things and different types of aliens and stuff like that. And I think all of that's really great. But what it needed to do is kind of what, I guess, Deep Space 9 does definitely what Strange New World stars, is serialise the relationships between the characters and have more characters as well, like have more people on the ship than just the 7 people. And that's the other thing. I think that we, or nine. How many people are there? don't know. But that's the other thing you really notice is that the ship seems a little bit more inhabited because there's more people than just the people in the opening credits. All of that stuff could have made the show more interesting, but they are just instead, once it becomes the only Star Trek on television, They've just decided we need to do Star Trek and Star Trek doesn't really do character relationships. It's all about space things. Which is so annoying because the outdoor state of flux where Cesca said, you know, you're a fool, captain, and you're a fool to follow her, which leads into this. And at the end of this, with her going, hello, Jakoti, you're going to be a father, which leads into the finale. It's just about the most interesting thing. really funny isn't it? Yeah, it's probably fun. And it makes me long for the next Cesca episode. Yeah, you know? Well, we won't get much of her, but maybe we should watch her today, shall we? All right. Okay. And so I'll count us in. Five, four, three, two, one, and we're off. I mean, we lost her, didn't we, to Deep Space 9. Martha Hackett was going to play that Romulan, wasn't she? That was introduced in series 3. Oh okay. And then she just vanished completely after the 1st 2 part because she got Cesca. Oh okay. She's so great. So there's one line that I really like. It's in this scene where he says that he was, so Chakotay's letting B'lana win. He says, you tense up, and she goes, I don't tense up, and he goes easy banana. It just hoverball. And I thought that is a really kind of mid joke in any normal TV show. But on a show like Voyager where the banter is so execrable. Like so appalling. That's actually really properly fun. And it makes you like Chakotay as well because he's funny, you know. I could see, I could see the effort they're putting into his character at this point. Both the writers and Robert Beltran himself, unfortunately, on series 3, that also stops. But again, notice too, that that opening beard, which has really got to be about Chakotay. Do you know what I mean? And perhaps it's got to be about Chakotay as an officer or what Chakotay's days like. Here it is, you know, here's what his relationship with Balana is like, which is important to the episode. But it's so short. We get nothing of him. They don't want to do character stuff. They just want to say we're getting a federation signal and then go out into the opening credits. And so, you know, they're more interested in the action which they're barely able to actually realise and more interested in the kind of manoeuvres which never really properly land, and it would have been fun to see more stuff being given to Robert Beltran, I think. I think Jerry Taylor and a few others, you know, the suits are a bit irritated because they set all this stuff up in series one and they kind of got to see it through, you know. They're ready for series three. Um, and, well, I'm just absolutely delighted that we get to see across series two, this play out. I don't know, I was going with that. I mean, that's fun. I really like. I just really like this period of time. Yeah, me too. Nathan, I don't get to say that very often. No, no. And like, Voyager will go on and do astoundingly great episodes. Do you know what I mean? It's not always a wash. It will go on and do great things, but it doesn't, the show is not as fun as this ever again, I think. Boy, they are astonishingly stupid in this scene where they don't assume it's Cesca. I mean, you've literally, you know there's somebody from the Alpha Quadrant in the Delta Quadrant. Why does it? I know they think they're T NG with no consequences. Jesus Christ. They can't be this stupid. That's what I said to you. I said that they don't know yet whether there are recurring villains in their show. And so they, they never, it never occurs to them that, uh, never used to ask her again. And this... Do you remember Mascot? Who? I'm not sure we'll do that sort of thing. There's actually another little moment, the little character moment about how much Harry wants to get home, which is a sort of sweet thing which they continue with. And like I thought that was nice and the way that that it looks like Janeway's going to squash him and she doesn't. It is nice, but it's another recurring problem of a Voyager. Sorry, to be coming down so hard on the premise here, is that every fucking time, every single time, they think they're going to get home or they're going to make a massive leap towards home yeah? The go-to character is Harry Kim being a child. being excited and then ultimately being disappointed. It's what makes timeless so great because they finally address that where he's a bitter old man. who destroyed Voyager in his end to get it home. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it is nice. It's a nice moment. So I think this is boring, actually. This is some action that we have, but like all of this staff, all of the shouting things, all of the sitting at their stations and yelling and returning fire and stuff is really boring. He did return fire, but unfortunately we didn't cut to the ships. So we just assumed that there was a beam, you know? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Oh, at least also, another thing that they can't achieve is they can't show us the hole in the, in the, um, they can't show us the hole in the, uh, in the shields through which the, the thing will come. And so they can, it's just a messenger speech. You've just got 2 Vog describing it. What they can do. though. What they can do is show the ship sticking into the cargo, baby with a load of dry eyes. Oh, I do that. I think that looks impressive. It's a nice big set, you know, and you can see the damage that the shuttle's done. And it does it does show the Kazon to be a bit more a bit different to the usual sort of Star Trek villains because we don't usually do suicide runs like this, do we? No, it's not a suicide run, though, because they survive it and come out and start shooting people. and then get killed. Yeah, see, that's pretty cool. Like that that optical is pretty great. Wibble the camera. You should have done what they did in that enterprise episode and have the whole ceiling come down, though, you know? things hanging from the roof. Yeah. Yeah, God, they're just trying to make it. Shake in the camera like... I'm feeling it. I feel you got any anti-nausea about this. Well, I'll say this. The person pumping the dry ice into the set absolutely was doing their job well. They earned their pay for that star to you. Oh, I love it when whenever Kate stands up and declare something on the bridge. just love it. Oh, here we go, look. Yeah, yeah, it's coming out the shuttle. Yeah, yeah, yeah. lots of dry ice. There's a very theatrical swing round to Chewbok going, stay where you are. He's too vog, though. awesome. Yeah, see, this is them trying to do action. Then he has to very slowly go down that ladder, doesn't he? Because Tim Ross doesn't want to fall off. They cut away. So they're sort of in and out, aren't they? This is a quick operation and Chuvolt. may I say your security procedures need looking at? Yeah, yeah. No, they're in the transporter room already then. napping the technology. They're on the pad and gone. Yeah, yeah. And it's colour himself on board. pretty good. They do look like cut price Klingons, don't they, those? Yeah, yeah, they're the Klingons your mum says that we've got at home. So there's this, right? And then later on, so the case I managed to effectively get on board the ship and steal the technology. And then later on, Shakotay manages to effectively steal a shuttlecraft without anybody noticing. Finally, Janeway goes, Mr. Chewvok. You're not getting your you're not getting your pay rise this week all right? Like, why, like, I don't understand why you aren't just immediately informed. And because it's because it's Chakotay, I'm just assuming that he overrode that. But it happens all the time, doesn't it? Oh, so-and-so's not on board. you know, um, no one warned anyone that Cisco had disappeared from the station. Um, uh, you know, and ended up in the in the game the other day on Move Along Home. They don't have a system that says, oh, by the way, like I get a fucking phone notification when, you know, something that I've been looking at on Amazon, gets 2 or 3 bucks off it, and they don't get notifications when people disappear from the ship. If Mark is 5 minutes late, you're home from work. I'll phone him up and say, are you dead? There's food here waiting for you. Oh, hang on. Here we go. Colour, colour, and Cesca. Now. That's just gold. Never mind. Terrible action. at this bear. He goes, we've had some help gaining this technology. And then she just peers over his shoulder. Hello, Chakote. Oh, she says goodbye, Chakotay. And the thing that's different here, I mean, it's not so different because in DSI, obviously, yeah, they're great camp villains to come weigh in and all of that. But and there wasn't like a power games going on. But when it's a woman pulling the strings of a man, it's just wonderful, isn't it? It's really funny that early Voyager has to be so sexist, though. Like all the villains have to be really sexist. Yeah, but she's running rings around them all. Well, yeah, no, there's one scene there is one scene where she reads a little bit like she's not under the thumb, but, you know scared of his violence to some degree. I mean, I do wonder, you know, they finish. There isn't a little bit of server land from Blake 7 in Cesca and she don't mind a bit of the old violence, you know? Well, actually... Yeah, no, but she looks, she does look a little bit kind of, um like I felt for her a little bit, I think, in a way that you never get with Serverland in Blake 7, you know. You know what I did like, though, is how the Nistrom used the warp the, sorry, the transporter technology as a weapon. That was so great and you just see the people flying through space. In fact, the way that that's edited, the way that that bit of the story is told is really good, I think. So Neelix is here for some much needed exposition, so that he can talk about the stakes here. contractual obligation, and contractual obligation, but he's basically here so that we can have a conversation about why Janeway wants to get the transporter module or whatever it is. I wonder if there's like an edit you could do on the whole of 90s track. And you put up a caption that says contraps your obligation in every episode every time someone gets there one scene. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Janeway's got her sort of severe bum at this boy, doesn't she? I like this hair. It's my favourite hair. I hate it when she just has generic American lady hair in the sort of latest seasons. I love the long hair as well where it goes down her back, but I love this. You know, when she goes to sort of Julian Anson X-Files car. I like that, you know. That is, that's what I mean. by standard American lady hair. I love how the Nistrom talk or all the caves talk about the federation technology like it's magic. It can move you from one place to another in the blink of an eye. Whoa. Oh my god. But the trouble is, and we did say this in alliances, even though alliances did go some way to making the Kazon victims, and that was interesting, the actual politicking between the Kazan, it's really boring. Yeah, they're just not interesting enough, are they? No. No. And they are trying to, they're trying to sort of juggle, here it's sex in DS9 its Empires. But in DS9, they did that wonderful thing that you always talk about, which is you have a go-to character. person. Yeah. With a huge personality. Kai win, golden cart. whoever. Senator Cretak, you know, whoever it is, Martok. And then it's interesting when you see them, but these Cayson they're so, I mean, who are these people? Part from colour. Well, and that's the other thing too, is that those Star Trek races date from the 60s and these ones are completely new and we're just not really that interested. And they're not. I mean, they're not that much like the Klingons. They're less kind of animalistic and a little bit more well spoken but they are rougher than the federation and stuff. So they're, you know, in one dimension, they're similar to the Klingons. But they should have done what you said. you know, the original idea, which was for them to be gangs, you know, gangs of younger characters. If they'd have found really strong, sort of, not teenager, maybe early 20s, character tracks to come in and play those roles, really rough, a bit dangerous. That could have been edgy and exciting. Instead, you've just got your usual... They drag people in theatre. And they're declaring everything, you know, oh, colour, give us this technology, you know. Colour is very well spoken, but I think he's really good. Oh, he's great. He's just terrific. He's got the Marco Lemo charm, hasn't he? You know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, he is very charming. I think he is really good. Um, this, so this scene as well should be good, but isn't, because there's just too much kind of talking about the technology and and only now we're getting the relationship between them. I'm so baffled with you. There's not enough. Some episodes, you're absolutely in love with the Techna Babble. In other episodes, you're not. But the techno Babylon on Voyager is bad in a way that it's less bad in Star Trek than Next Generation. It's got bad. They don't know why they're doing it. Well, they sort of do these hideous metaphors, don't they? All the time. Yeah, yeah. Oh, don't do that. It's like grafting this onto a plant or something. Oh, thank you very much. I like this guy. So I don't know this guy, but he's the... Is that a well, you know him? ogler or a rolora? He's the rolora, rolora guy with a beard. who has a, he takes us out of this um scene with this incredibly great smile. I do have quite the most hideous hair, though, of any race in Star Trek, don't they? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's upsetting, isn't it? I mean, why does colour look like he's got a load of rocks on his head? Apparently it's dog chew toys and stuff. Like they all... No, it's not, is it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I read the memory alpha thing about the, there's a whole section about the, about the costume. Well, I I know now where they went wrong with a Kazon. You know, they made them up out of dog chew toys. Look at this. Look at this. So he's making fun of her for being ordered around, making fun of colour for being ordered around. There's the 2 of them looking at each other and going, let's beam them into space. And then that guy smiles and then we cut back to Voyager's Bridge and then we find out what happened to him. And I thought that was unusually good as well. thrown away a little bit. like you think that that moment should have landed a little bit more. to make us wonder what was going to happen next and then cut to their dead bodies, which is what we're seeing now which is pretty cool. That's not a special effect of them sort of flying around. space as well. He's got his hands out, like claws, like he wasn't expecting that. Kate's reaction. is pretty awesome as well. Like, hey, kills it. Like when she reacts with Chakotay. Oh, he's the best. It's like something I kind of never considered before. It's like, yeah, of course you could use that as a weapon. Even when Picard, you know, threatened to beam himself out into that electric cloud in lonely among us. with a nebula. Yeah It still didn't cross my mind. Actually, in the wrong hands, this could be an offensive weapon. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, even the names of them, Nathan. the Kazon relora. So it was the Oglet and the Relora, and they're too strong, we've decided. And again, so this doesn't go anywhere. Like, no one's crazy, say in this line. We know they've been murdered. You know, it's possible, Captain, that they may have used a transporter beam. To execute these K's up. Oh, really? Thank you. Yeah, and this too, I think this is really great. So this captain's log is about how she's convened a meeting of the senior staff, and you think, okay, well, we're introducing that scene, and then it turns out, no, because Chakoti doesn't turn up for this scene, which he should be there. And so this thing gets abandoned and it becomes about something else, which I thought was pretty good. What I do think, Nathan, is, frankly, she should get an interior designer into that miserable gray room they were just in. Get some paintings on the wall. whatever it is. It's a horribly designed room. I'm surprised anyone can think at all in that room. It's very strange. It's so much worse than the observation lounge was on Star Trek the next generation. very nice tracking shot. The camera sort of tilt in. It's following a good lick. We doing the West Wing talking walk. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not too bad, is it? Oh, this is where she chews her out, isn't it? Did Chakotay leave any clue? Oh, and by the way, Mr. Chewbac. I want a list of all security procedures on my desk by the morning all right? Yeah. So again, we're finally kind of working out what's happening. I think I think that Janeway is just fantastically good here though. Like just in all of these scenes. Like she... There's a, there's a level of control. Like she's really, really business-like and she's really, really self-controlled. And I just think all of her reactions are brilliant. Like she's such a good captain. Well, you say that, but I also think she lets just these little moments of humanity slip in. as well. And she's really good at that. Like, you know, just her look to the side or her voice will break at a certain point or something, you know? That's what I mean by control because you get a sense that she's controlling something. Do you know what I mean? That she's she's doing her job, but she's feeling it and stuff. And sometimes it's extremely subtle, I think. And then wake up to this man with a head full of dog chew toys. Yeah, yeah. And again, like this scene is not that interesting, is it? I guess there is, there's a shift between the 2 of them. Because, I mean, the big, the interesting thing between this relationship is who's in charge. Do you know what I mean? And obviously what has to happen is that Cesca needs to be in charge, but Marge Culler needs to think he's in charge. And so we get a little bit of that here. And then when the shit hits the fan, she kind of takes over and just gives the commands. The mostril, the home buy, and the... Look, I knew you'd get to this conclusion eventually. And that's why I've already said that. I've already invited them here, you know? But this bit where he's physically threatening her. Do you know what I mean? And she is actually taken back. Do you know what I mean? Like that, like the way she's playing it? sucked his finger or something, you know, took the power away from him. Oh, she kind of does. But she does. Oh, forgive me. She says forgive me. yeah. But then he immediately says, he immediately takes responsibility. How did the other sex respond to my request, which is the one that she sent, but signed his name on. By the time we get to basics, Nathan, there ain't not of this. She's totally in charge. Charge, yeah, yeah. And I guess that is kind of fun, that having her in charge. And again, yes, Marj becomes, goes from being a, yes, don't hit me to now a sort of full on sex thing, I think. It's the last one where she goes. Yeah. Yes, March. It's like right. That's right. Looking, right. Martha Harkett's like, this is the best role I'm ever going to have. let's just go for it She would have had she wouldn't have had anywhere near this amount of fun as that Romulan, you know. No, that was a very absolute character. Yeah, it's amazing to think of, but yes. We want we want you to play a mad soap opera villain on Voyager. You up for it? Let's go. Oh, this was a nice scene. It's a good scene. This is the best actors on the show. They forgot that B'lana and Janeway have a, what, a maternal relationship. You know, that it's completely ditched from Series 4. The 7 comes in and this is gold. It's such a shame because you're watching this in episodes like prototype as well. Remember, things like that. It reaps rewards because the 2 actors are really good. You see, I love this too, that, like, like, she's coming in. So both of them are right, which is what's so interesting about it. You know, um, uh, um, Bellana comes in and says he was in love he's been humiliated, he's been embarrassed. And Janeway, as a woman, is just able to say, so it's his big man thing and like he's just going off to be a man and fuck that, you know, like that's not behaving like a grown-up. And like she's acknowledging it. You know, I'm sure that was very painful, but, you know, this is it's not his call. And I liked it a lot. Like I really... that's effective, right? When you have a conversation between 2 people with opposing parts of you and they're both right. That's really interesting. It is interesting and it's also just like the way that she commands, like the way that Janeway works as a commander, because she's not like, you know, she's not like Captain Pike or Burnham. She's not really collegial. She is in charge and she's very, very definitely in charge in a very sort of old-fashioned way. And I really like that, and that they let her do that without her being blustering. She never yells in this episode. Like all of that stuff is so good. Like she's just properly good. But I like the conclusion, though, Rich, as well. You know what? Why don't we find him first? And then I'll deal with the discipline later. So the look, that is the parental look. Do you know what I mean? That little indulgent parental look as she leaves. So we're still playing that. They wanted and she says this in interviews, Kate. They wanted her to, they, even though they're, they're fronting this show with a woman, they wanted it played like a man. They wanted it played like all of their male captains before that we weren't going to rock the boat too much. But Kate's too good for that. And she can play it like a bloke and still have these wonderfully sort of maternal moments as well. No, I don't think she does play it like a bloke. I think she just plays it like a woman who is not going to put up with your shit and particularly in that scene where it was a particularly kind of the problem is Chakotay's being a fucking man about the whole thing instead of being a grown-up. This was so funny. I mean, that ship is clearly there next to the ship. I don't know why they can't see that. But they try and add in some sort of suspense, dun, dun, dun, dun dun. Yeah, the music is actually not too bad. That great, Nathan. I thought they could have gone a bit further. Well, you're grading on a curve. He's still for... The ceiling is the floor, yes? Yeah exactly. Ah, I cohere an Akron pulse. That's what we need. It's a polon pulse. Oh, I'm so sorry. I did not realise, yeah. Right, we're going to have this one light going off in the shuttle. That will be suspenseful. And then we'll... We'll bring in the green lightning as well. Yeah, yeah. No, that's the pollen tunnels, I think. They just need to get him on board the ship because that's where the interesting stuff happens. Yeah, yeah. And again, I think that the manoeuvres thing doesn't land. One of the things about state of flux was that we were surprised maybe twice in that episode. But I don't think we were surprised here. We saw, knew it was Cesca, but we were trying to figure out how on earth they were going to figure out. Yeah, but we didn't know that Chakotay knew and we discovered that do you know what I mean? There's that moment where he reveals that he's been playing her and he's one ahead of her and that's interesting and clearly this wants to be that, but it doesn't manage it. I think. State of luck sort of started like a murder she wrote, didn't it? Like, who on earth is it? And it ended as a Colombo. How are we going to catch her out? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, like, I thought it was probably good. This is just a lot of space things happening this week. You know, we're on spaceships, which is... Well, it's about technology rather than people, really, isn't it? Well, I mean, it's not, it's... Yeah. I mean, the technology is a bit of a McGuffin and there were, I mean, there were stolen things last time, weren't they on state of flux? When was the stolen, was there stolen technology? I can't remember now. Somebody was stuck into a console, wasn't I? Or something like that. Yeah, yeah, that's right. I remember the feeling with a sort of technology. But the interesting stuff is the power games here. Yeah, it's the colour Cesca Chakotay power game. So the best scene of this is the interrogation scene where Chakotay refuses to give either of them any power of him despite the fact that he's been beaten. I love this moment where he says, lovely to see you again, and then just drops the thing and immediately gives her the phaser. You know, he's not going to shoot her, and she's annoyed by that. I like the fact that the thing about a state of flux was she knew Chakotay so well that she could play him like an instrument right? She could pull the wall over his eyes. Now he gets the chance in this episode to do it back to her because he knows all of her tricks and he spells them all out to colour and goes, oh, let me guess. She's told you this. She's whispered in your ears. She's promised you sex, you know. It's really great. Consequences, Voyager. learn from this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And yeah, yeah. I guess I just think this isn't quite as good. There's a little bit more space things. Look, look at her reaction to this message. Watch her face. Like, we... Oh, wow. Oh my god, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, just... I move of the eyebrow. You know, like she's, she's hurt. She's, you know, like, it's so good. You're too good for this show. You're too good. Oh, dear. didn't utilise you well enough. Oh, I did like the lighting in this scene. I always like it when they put in sort of harsh lighting because there's so much of 90s track is flat lighting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And at one point he's got the harsh light on his face and he's really beaten and bloody. Yeah. So, so you were comparing it to the scene where the lizard Zindi the Zindi reptilian was beating up on Scott Bakula. Back on my planet. We are really boring, stupid dinosaurs once that scene, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, so, so Chakotay's, like, here, what's interesting is that, you know, um, he's... Yeah, yeah, that's it. That's it. They've got Ceska. They've both had relationships. Even this thing where she offers him a drink, like seems really kind of normal and she's, again, she's obviously playing him, but she doesn't really convincingly, I think. You know, she's pretty good. There's a point made about that drink as well, isn't it? Where she goes, you know what? It a pretty hideous drink, but I've got used to it. That's her talking about her circumstances. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. This was basically the best I was going to get in the Delta Watron. And I've gotten used to it and I'm in charge now. But I just think they have good chemistry, the 2 of them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But he's really good in this. So he's properly good and he just checks out, doesn't he? Do you remember when we watched him in resolutions at the end of his season as well? As the romantic leader of that. Well, Kate was really the romantic leader of that, let's be honest. Yeah, yeah, but he was awesome though. He was really great. And then, like, you know, we almost did human error. this week. Yeah. If we'd have watched that, you would have seen a flat monotonous performance where he's just dead behind the eyes and saying the words. And fuck me. They're giving him Jerry Ryan. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's a shame. Yeah, she is a shame. Because he was, I don't think there's a single character that they do not evolve and improve in DS9, and I don't think there's a single actor that doesn't get better with every season. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, but all this stuff gets dropped on the floor. The relationship, you know, the relationship between Tuvok and Chicone is interesting. The relationship between 2 Vulcan B'lana is interesting because they were all on the ship together. You know, um, and he was undercover the relationship between Janeway and him. Like, you know, all of that stuff. So that's dropped off to resolution, basically. The relationship between Jacosay and Torres is remembered maybe once a year. And the only relationship they really remember or focus on going forward is 7 and the doctor, 7 and Janeway. and occasionally Jane Way and the doctor. It becomes that sort of triumvirant again, doesn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a shame Yeah, it is a shame, particularly. I mean, team Rush. This stuff, this season 2 stuff. Star Trek fans look at it and sort of dismiss and go, oh, well that's when Voyager wasn't working and I don't agree with that. No, no, no. Yeah, it doesn't make sense. There's all sorts of things wrong with it, but everyone's, you know, trying and everyone is so much more interesting than they end up being. More entertaining, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, like, like with Michelle Yeoh in Discovery, right, when they were like, well, we can't get rid of this evil version of Georgia. She's too thumb. Let's just hammer on the ship. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They could have brought Cesca on the ship, couldn't they? And just had a insulting everybody every 5 minutes. Well, they did have their consulting psychopath on the ship for a bit as well at this point too, and killed him off in the big purge. Two episodes a year. Yeah. In fact, I made that point recently when doing commentaries elsewhere that, like Dukat, Sudo could have been a really interesting, recurring, villainous character. Yeah. Yeah. It's what I said. what I said when we 1st did start a Voyager. Remember I went on that mad rant about missed opportunities? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just a lingering taste in my mouth of missed opportunities. And it's when I watch episodes like this where I can see the potential. It's not formed, but it's there. Yeah. Yeah. Well, this scene, I mean, these 2 are great. You know, and look, like Janeway's completely impassive. She doesn't respond, but then she says, well, go, let's resume a course. We have to go and get him. You're right. Do you know what I mean? But, oh, and then the just the subtle eyebrow thing, a little eyebrow distress moment and before she leaves just to say yes, you know, like I do care. So here's what they get right here, right? So this is the, this is the scene. It's a lot more visceral. And they've given Chakotay, they've given Beltran a lot more makeup. So his lip is swollen. It looks like it hurts him to move his face. And it never looks like that in that scene with Bacular. He's just got some blood painted on him. But the whole time it's interfering with his speech. You know, like he's been so beaten up, his lip is so swollen that it's interfering with his speech. All of that stuff is so much better. Um, I think it's a shame to shoot him from below like that so we can't see his face properly. There is a bit where he is punched towards the end of this scene right? And instead of reacting in pain. He laughs at colour. Yeah, yeah. She's going to kill you, Kala. But the way Belgram plays it. It's so against the way you would imagine someone. He's never an interesting performer. Why is he suddenly interested? Even that scene, he's saying you're not telling me what I need to know. And Chikode says to him, no, I'm telling you exactly what you need to know. It's really good. It's really funny. piper in your nest Please watch your back, you know. The little mole on her stomach. That's such a Star Trek thing, such a 90 Star Trek thing. And I guess you've seen it line is so funny. Like, again, that's a properly good line. Color's so pathetic. He's in charge of this enormous sect of Kazon, and he's being undermined by both characters. Yeah, by someone who's tied up. Yeah, like he's eye, like he's got a machiner sort of thing. I think it's good. I did like the POV shot with the wibbly wobbly special effect as the drug goes through him. Yeah. I'm going to give you firsthand information colour. Oh, she's going to kill you. When she's through with you, she's gonna kill you. I wish that's not what happens, is it? No. No, no, no, no. It's some weird techno babble and the ship goes for a pocket of something and they all end up dead. It's just so shit. That's so crap. It is literally the writer saying, we can't even be bothered. We can't be bothered. We just want them all gone. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is a shame. Oh, now she's going to sort of purr and stroke him and yeah, well so nursing back to health. I knew how this episode ended, obviously, but when she comes up and sticks this thing in his neck, I'd kind of forgotten why she did that, but she obviously renders him unconscious so that she can jerk him off. Is that it? I mean, didn't she just take his DNA? I don't think she goes. I think the way that you get the DNA though is... Oh, please. Come on. That's how babies are made. Do I need to explain it? Has she just knocked him out with hypnol? She gave him a roofie and then, no, she's going to change. I mean, I think that's a bit uncomfortable. Well, this seems happening. If we're talking about Seska raping Chakose right now. Well, she's a villain. Okay. I mean, I mean, I'm going to say I don't care about that. I don't care about the fact that he's violated because I love the ending. And the consequences of it. And obviously they're not. That's not where they're going. That is like in retrospect. That thing is extracting DNA. It's not, um, it's not uh, rending him unconscious, is it? Couldn't they have done, though? Like, just totally committed to it. When she comes up and says, I'm pregnant, you're going to be a daddy or whatever, and done a freeze frame, like a good soap with... Executive producer. Rick Burman. It would have been great. No. Or even an EastEnders style. Instead, it was like... Oh, what a shame. So again, this is sort of super boring as well. They're standing around talking about how they can beam him off. And there are now no rules. Essentially, you can beam through shields, you can beam at warp. Uh, you can beam at warp while someone else is stationary, uh, like it's a whole thing. It all is now just a sort of choice of protocols. And in a way, I don't care, but it just seems like a sort of boring conversation to have. And that's all that scene is about. Can I be Lawrence Llewellyn Bowen again for a second? I don't know what that is, but yes. He's the fellow that goes around, you know, it does interior design in people's houses in outlandish ways. But like, the more I watch Voyager, the duller those sets seem, and they were just on that gray bridge, which is so boring with no light sources to give any of it any atmosphere. We cut to this Kazon ship, which is lit from below from the table from the side. It's like a DS noise there. It is a DS9 set. It's got curves. It's basically brown and green, which is the same colour that everything is on deep season, apart from when it's orange. But it has light sources to make it. Look at the way this man is lit from below. It's more interesting than that boring lighting on Voyager. I actually played it like that. They were going for with that gun metal green. So, like, I remember my initial reaction being that they've taken all the bits of Star Trek, the Next Generation, they're a little bit naff, and have improved on them. And so they, it looks a little bit more serious. I mean, you know how stupid, I think that bridge said is on the Enterprise D. it's ridiculous And so this is a little bit more sort of sensible, but it is also just very boring. Like it is very boring. I mean, did they just forget that we knights look at nice colours in the 90s? Yeah, yeah. Well, I think that the 80s track reacts against original tracks, um very bold pop art, technicolour, primary colours. Because then curse my trek, reaction leads into it. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. All the colours of the rainbow. It's like when when Doctor Who came back in 2005 and Russy Davis was like, I want pretty images on the screen. I want people to want to look at the pictures we're giving them. Well, I mean, think about the, think about the three, like the, the uniforms in original track. And what are we wearing now? We're wearing black. And then later on in Deep Space 9, It's going to be black and gray. You know, like the uniforms get more and more boring, though. Yeah, no, I do too. I think it's kind of funny, isn't it, that Deep Space 9 obviously updates the uniforms but Voyager can't because of the premise. Um, uh, and they get a message from the Alpha Quadrant. And then they're all wearing the 1st contact uniforms. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But those are black. They're so boring. And, you know, again, discovery kind of does it, doesn't it? It does the, let's do, you know, let's do blue uniforms, like Enterprise, until the end of the show, when they kind of go, no primary colours, and that's what strange new world stars as well. That's why that mirror universe, Enterprise episode looks so great. Everybody was in those original... so good. So much better. We had no idea those people could be so pretty. they got out of there. that's right Soilers, cleaning outfits or whatever they're wearing, yeah. I did like that scene a minute ago where Carlos's trying to pretend he's got the command codes and the feather's going, well gone, ain't use them. They're attacking us right. But you see, again, it takes us too long to get there. And, you know, what ends up happening is we have some kind of deflection, diffusion beam, shield field thing over Chakotay. And so we decide to just kidnap everyone else and they shouldn't perhaps have found that out. Takes too long to get there and getting there is too boring, you know. Yes, but where then we do get the fabulous scene between Janeway and Shakose, where she does get to chew him out at the end. Yeah, yeah. It's an awesome one. Like, you know what? I mean, I'm a bit embarrassed now to go back and listen to my reaction to choosing this at the end of the last episode because I seem to promise you an action masterpiece, you know? Absolutely gripping, but no. No, maybe about 2.5 minutes of it is. Yeah, it's not terrible. I enjoyed it and I love Martha Hacker. I love the regulars. characters first. Yeah, yeah, I think this scores quite well on these characters. I love how the Kazon don't let him go with her. Like it... And they were going back. they don't have the transporter anymore. We're suffering from randomly fluctuating modulations here. Oh, yeah, like a terrible time. All of this stuff, like it's just like... you localise the dampening field. Please, just say it's going to take a long time. You don't need to tell us why. Oh, no, Joe boy's got an idea. What's that going to be? Loads of take the babble. No, her idea is get these other fuckers off and transport them onto the ship, which is actually a great, like a really great idea which is really fun and comprehensible and hilarious. She's a smart cookie, isn't she? And it's all going horribly wrong for colour right at this moment when he gets beamed on board, which is really funny. Like he's actually completely lost at this point. And finally, chew on guests to do something. We've disabled your weapons, gentlemen, you know. But that guy says something like, I will make you very sorry for this colour. Again, that's so boring. And then look at colour, colours reaction here is pretty great as well. But if this was like, if they were less uptight, Chuba would have a line, like, you know, I've been embarrassed by you people a lot today. Can we have to shut our back, please? Colour's trying to do a charming smile, but he's too annoyed to be able to pull it off. It's really funny, like he pulls this phone. It's hampered by that 90s direction because they stay on the 2 of them staring at each other for about 5 seconds. No one's saying a word. No, but colour sells that. absolutely sells it. Oh, here we go. Time fudge, Kotay to... faces consequences. But look at look at her. Do you know what I mean? Like, she's absolutely not giving him anything. She is making him squirm, but not by being aggressive or anything. Like, she's so good. Not in a way that Cisco or Picard would... Yeah, they would chain somebody out. Yep. And the thing where she says, you have just made my job much, much more difficult. That's so good. Like that's really properly good. It wasn't almost accusatory. She goes, why do you choose to ignore procedure? It's like a genuine question. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But she, he keeps coming up with these rationalisations for his behaviour and she just keeps saying, no, you were not, you know, it wasn't your call. all of this sort of stuff. But this bit here. How do you expect me to keep order? How do you expect me to keep order? And he's just absolutely embarrassed by it. And he's selling it too. He should go, look, I've only done it once, all right? Go to D Space nine. Cisco has Dax doing it every season. No, it is great. It is really great. Yeah, and her. In case in case it means anything anymore. And he goes, it does mean something. It does because it means something to him. I think that's really good Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's cheesy because it means I've let you down, blah, blah blah. like whatever. But like I thought that scene was pretty good. But the performances are subtle. It's nice. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's almost like more moving for not shouting. Yeah, I think she's really good. I mean, it's just that she's incredibly great. And here's the singer. No, I was lying, this is the best scene of the episode. is really good. Can I do it quickly? Oh, wait, I think... Sorry. Hello, Nathan. While you were unconscious after we watched a few Star Trek episodes. Apparently I jokes you off. Surprise. Look at that smile. Oh my god. She is fucking cadaverous. I love it. She's so good. And then just the look on his fight. He doesn't quite sell the horror enough, though, does it? I think he does. he's actually pretty good. I think he probably sells it. I mean, he doesn't go melodramatic. thought that was great. That's really... I mean, it's doing that thing of ending with such a zinger of a last scene that you're convinced... The rest of the episode is really good. Yeah. It's, I'd say it's good. It's not great. It's good. And it's more than unusually competent for a character tell for Voyager, which is quite nice. Well, I think it's a thing that we've always said about early Voyager, is that that version of the show where it's actually Star Trek Voyager is really quite promising and when they abandon that to just do Star Trek, It's a lot less interesting and it needn't have been. You know, something like Strange New Worlds is just doing Star Trek. And it's not just that it looks better and more expensive and stuff. It's sort of more carefully thought through. But you remember I said to you that they were told that they had to up their game with Sirius 2. something wasn't working within the series. You know, earlier on in series 2, you've got twisted and illosion and terrible episodes like that. And I love the way they react to that with the episodes coming up. The 2nd half of two, I've always said, is my favourite run of Voyager. Next, you get resistance, which is Joel Gray coming in and having scenes with Kate Mulgrew for a whole episode. So the acting is out of this world in the next episode. We've done alliances already. That did lots of interesting things. Okay, we'll skip over threshold. everyone has a bad day. Meld brings in serial killer of the week, as played by Brad Doyle against Tim Ross to do some serious acting, Dreadnaught is a brilliant Baladatores episode with a Kardassian bomb with her voice, threatening to destroy an entire planet. Deaf wish we've covered, which, you know, we had a mixed response too, but was interesting. Yeah. Deadlock there where you get 2 Janeway's, 2 ships, the Badillians trying to take everybody apart. The Thor, which is Michael McKeon in the VR as Fear, Chuvix, which has an ending that people still talk about to this day. resolutions which leans into the Jane Wenchakote romance. Basics part one, which ends on a fuck off cliffhanger, where the entirety of Voyager is dumped on a planet and Cesca and Kala ride away with the ship. They really do up their game, I think. I think they take the criticism and go, row, well, what can we do? And yeah, I think this is sort of the 1st step. It ain't there, but they're definitely moving in the right direction. All right, it's the end of the episode and it's time for us to work out where we're going next time. You chose manoeuvres, and so it's my turn to choose now. Just say one thing very quickly. I'd like to say that my continual efforts to overhype episodes before we watch them. which I've been doing now since we started on Star Trek project, has remained intact. So we're going to choose an episode from one of our 3 least covered series by percentage. And those are in order. Discovery, we have done the smallest proportion of, then lower decks, which obviously landed 10 new episodes over the last couple of months. And so it's fallen in the rankings and then Star Trek the next generation. So we're going to do one of those. I'm just going to say a prayer for lower decks. Okay. Please, lower decks. Come on. You know what's, what could be interesting by putting in lower decks in next generation is, is, uh, one is an incredibly worthy 90s trek show, and another one is one taking a piss out of an incredibly worthy 90s TV show. Let's see if we're going to take the Mickey or we're going to be serious. That's right All right. Let's see how we go. Oh, we've done this one already. It's series one, episode 20 of Star Trek, the Next Generation Heart of Glory, which we did in episode 111. of those rare gems in season one. Ooh, this is a properly good episode of Star Trek The Next Generation. Are you sure? Well, it's season 3, episode 4 who watches the watches. Oh my god. I've watched this recently. I know this is still very good. I think it'd be fun to do a properly good episode of Star Trek The Next Generation. And it's one that the show goes back to and kind of minds for sort of, you know, in future installments and stuff. It's sort of important to the show, but it is very definitely them kind of getting it right very early on in series three. I'm going to say something controversial. I think this might be the 1st time, the next generation gets an episode completely right. And I'm including Measure of a Man, because I think there's problems in that. There's a few problems in Q who. This is where the show has kicked itself into gear and it delivers a great episode as well. Yeah, I think do. It's really good. It's the Mintarkins, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. really like it. I think it's really super interesting. In all sorts of ways. I don't want to kind of blow. We'll get to compare this one to an episode we've already covered when we were together, which is justice, because it mirrors a scene from justice, where they bring up in inverted commas primitive to the ship and show them, you know, their planet from space, but this shows you how to get it, how to do it. Yeah, yeah, it's properly good, isn't it? It's funny. I actually wrote an intro to this episode in Tom Selinski's book as well. Boy, last year, yeah. So it is one of my favourites. You know, your name keeps turning up in books, you know, when I'm sort of not looking. The Doctor Who Target book, if anyone cares to find that, or your name turns up in a Doctor Who book, human nature as well. you know? Honestly, you get everywhere, you do. I do. Yeah. A totally best podcast. That's what you think. Absolutely. we do it. Yes. You've been listening to untitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford and Nathan Bottomley, where online at untitled Star Trek Project com, where you can find subscription links and links to our social media accounts. Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Sisrin, and the theme was composed by Cameron Lam. This episode was recorded on the 14th of January 2025 and released on the 17th of January. We'll see you next time for Star Trek, The Next Generation, and watches the watches. Yeah, oh, banger. Bang a bang. Oh, I'll watch that today. It's got a great score as well, that episode. Oh, does it? Yeah, listen to the score when you're when you're watching it. Okay, I will. Yeah. There, it's still in that Ron Jones... Yeah, yeah, yeah. Electronic music stuff, but he's actually doing good music. It's not just crazy. It's really good, isn't it? Even the decision to make them proto- Vulcans. Like that's an interesting thing. It's there's tons of location work in it. Yeah, tons. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. All of the guest actors are brilliant in that one. Um, the the, the father and the child. Yeah, that's right. I remember them really well in particular. And the old guy as well. Yeah And the sort of power struggles amongst them when they're trying to figure out what this all means, you know, the Picard. Yeah, I don't want to spoil it, but I think that's the most interesting thing about it, particularly for an American television show of this period, for that to be the problem that they have to solve is really super interesting, I think. So yeah, yeah, I'm really into it. I think it, it might be your, your highest appraisal of an next Genesis Dalmark, I think this one. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I think so. I think that it's up there with Darma. I think Darma was so affecting. We was talking yesterday, me and Mark Donaldson, and he went, he goes, do you know what? I think the best, he goes, I don't think it's the best Star Trek episode as in an episode of Star Trek. He goes, but the best episode of Star Trek, as in it, it works to all the Star Trek ideals. And I said, go on. He went dharmok. I was like, yeah, you're probably right, yeah. With the cent? And they're like, I think I tear up in our episode when I just sort of say that. Yeah, it's like he gives his life. Nathan gives his life in order to make that connection in order to in order to find a way of communicating. And I just thought that was so beautiful and and just the storytelling, like the thing that they connect with isn't the dumb metaphors thing or whatever, it's that they tell stories, you know and when he's there telling the story of Gilgamesh, which is an unusual choice, and just, like, and he dies as Picard is, as giving Gilgamesh's speech is so good. So good. Just really good. I know when you're deeply moved because your voice breaks almost imperceptibly, but I notice you, it happened the other day in an episode. You did, actually. When you were talking, you were talking about Cisco realising that his son is a brilliant and much better. And your voice breaks just for a second, you know. I think this sort of thing somebody only notices when they spend a lot of time with you, you know. Well, I think those moments are gorgeous in podcasts, you know when you hear real emotion in people's voices. Yeah, well, I mean, this is a dumb genre show. you know what I mean? We spend a lot of time making fun of it and it deserves it. But, you know, like it is sometimes really properly affecting, I think. Yeah. And that's great. No, not often. But like sometimes it's thrilling and funny and ridiculous and wonderful. Like, you know, like we've been talking about it for hours and hours and hours. We get to hang out. You can't press while, remember? Okay, that's true. That is true.