Bread and Circuses

Hey, Joe. Hi. So we're back. It's the '60s. It's Star Trek, the original series Series 2, episode 25. In 2 weeks time, we'll be with Gary 7 on Assignment Earth. Yeah, but right now, we are in what the show calls 20th century Rome, which is actually literally a place that I've been to. And it's called Bread and Circuses. It's the... And it's the 1st of 2 titles that are quotes from the Roman satirist juvenile. I know the other one. Who watches the watches? It is. So Panamets, Kansas, for this one, and quis custodiet ipsos custores in the 2nd one. So... It's also a good thing, of course. cushion on my lap right now. You know how hard I get when you're super intelligent. So, this is pretty fucking weird, I think, don't you? Only Star Trek could possibly go to 20th century Rome gladiatorial games being televised one week to ditching the regulars and having a time travelling protagonist up a rocket with a cat climbing on his back the next week. I mean, what's happening? Are they smoking a lot? 60s? It's pretty incredible. And we are only about a month out from Nazi planet. in patterns of force, which is one that I don't think I've ever seen. But in any case, so what they've done, like the premise is that there's a thing called Hodgkin's Law of Parallel Planet Development, and that just means that we can go to other planets that are like ancient Rome, but it never fail, or Nazi planet, or whatever. Shit, get out, call or something. As soon as I start that line, I was like, so how many of these, is there a directory of all these planets and all the different ways that they've developed? Because how does this happen? How does this actually happen realistically, on another world, with parallel evolution to earth, the language and everything, with this slight deviation. bullshit, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, no, it is bullshit, but that's Star Trek, and, you know, like it's just the 2nd year of Star Trek, and they're kind of working what they can do. Like, can we go to planets that are just sort of parallel earth? I don't know when a piece of the action is. Is that in series three? I mean, that has a problem. No, no, no, no. piece of the action. That's early. But that's when where it's cultural contamination, isn't it? Like something gets left behind on the planet and they end up kind of modelling their society on it. But there's a huge difference between a piece of the action and this because in that, they basically do a gangster movie and just totally dive into the genre and do all the fun things that you can do with that, the Tommy guns running around the streets, gunfires and things. They're not really doing Roman Britain in this. Beyond a sword fight or two. Yeah. Yeah, so like there's there's all kinds of sort of Roman bits and pieces and some little clever moments in there, but it is a bit boring, I think, in the middle. Oh, I was going to say throughout, but go on, throughout. Okay. And then and then the gladiatorial combat is pretty rooster. The poor director is quoted on memory alpha as saying that that should have been the huge set piece of this episode. and we should have been given time to do it, stage it more impressively on a bigger sound stage with better design and with sort of really carefully choreographed fight scenes. Instead, it was literally lashed up in about 15 minutes. They just gave the actor source and said, go for it. Apparently the suits were looking over his shoulders, basically saying, come on, time is money. Get going. It goes, so the whole reason this episode exists. then the payoff is it's really lame. It's really quite embarrassing. Yeah, it is a little bit. And we'll get to the ending because I just think the ending is astounding and absolutely baffling and I don't know what's happening. So strange. Oh, hooray, Ahura gets something to do and then she opened her mouth and I was like, oh, no, please. Stop talking. When we get there, her delivery of that line is magnificent. Like, she's so good. Well, she tells them all very well. I like that bitch. Where she goes, it's the son of God. And they're just like, oh. Michelle, I love you so much. I just like the looks of all her faces when she went, no, you're all completely wrong. Excuse me? You're the bloody secretary. What are you talking about? No, I just thought she was magnificent. But it's so stupid. And we'll obviously get there and sort of talk about it as well because I have a rant. You're not the only person having a rant, Nathan, because by all accounts, this is where the discontent between the 2 genes, Gene Roddenbury and Gene Coon, it finally came to a head. It was fighting over this script where Gene Coon, who was suffering from cancer at the time as well. So he probably would have had to have pulled away from the series. He just said enough. And he actually said to Gene Roddenbury in this, I'm not going to be producing this show anymore, here's a possible replacement. So it was this script was the tip of the iceberg. Freddie Freiberger. And I said to you in a message, I wonder if something could have been made of this, if G number two, who is Gene Coon, had been given full creative control, because we've done a couple of his scripts and they were, well, my dream, he did write Spock's brain as well. But we said that was maybe punishment after this on gene number one. that's Gene Runner. I can see Gene Roddenbury all over this, especially that god awful scene where Jerusalem, the handmaiden, comes in and just goes, oh I'm your fuck buddy for tonight, Captain Kirk. That's her sole reason for existence. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's very strange. There's no reason for that scene to happen at all, really. Anyway. By all accounts. The director says that the finished scripts for this were handed to him on day one of shooting. So Gene Roddenbury was rewriting it. He probably saw Gene Coon, you know, and he was like, right, give out here. going to rewrite this overnight. and handed it to the drawer. So that might be why this is a bit of a mess. On that note. Whilst on location in this episode, I forget who's quoted us saying it now. Somebody was visiting with Gene Roddenbury to see the filming, and apparently the discontent between the regular actors was pretty bad in this. Shatner saw Gene Roddenbury walking towards them and is quoted as saying it just turned around and walked away. It wouldn't even acknowledge him at all. So I don't, I don't think there was a, there was trouble in paradise. at this point in Star Trek's run. But you got to remember, at this point, it wasn't necessarily there was going to be a 3rd series. This could have been the end of a run. So maybe everyone's a bit nervous about looking for extra work. Yeah, well, I've got things to say, but it is a long episode and I don't want us to run out of. There's always 5 minutes in an original series episodes where we're just sort of going, oh, the light is nice, isn't it? you know? There's not a lot of incident in this episode, so I'm going to keep my powder dry, I think. It is random tricks, law of the original Star Trek series. They're all 10 minutes too long. Too long. This one's maybe about 25 minutes too long. All right. I think we should go in then in that case. Yep, let's do it. Okay, I'll count it in. Five, four, three, two, one, and we're off. So this is clearly the new special effects. Yes, I noticed a new special effect, particularly when the planet appeared on the screen. I was like, yes, yeah. That very HD planet that's been superimposed on this very 60s set. Well, it's also the very HD planet where they know what the earth looks like from space. Do you know what I mean? So that there's cloud covering stuff like that. I haven't seen a picture of what, uh, apparently it's called Magna Roma in the later kind of spinoff material, and there are even characters from Magna Roma, so great Rome or Greater Rome. Um, so delightfully, uh, they don't just sweep this under the carpet. There is really a Roman planet and it gets referred to again, which is kind of awesome. Well, I was going to drop it later, but I'm going to do it now you've mentioned a spinoff, Ephemera. In the autobiography, of Captain James T. Kirk. Apparently, Drusilla birthed one of Kirk's many children. Okay, that he found out about later when he revisited the planet. And he turned out to be a really famous director and producer on this planet. Oh, God. Oh my god. So did you see the thing? There was a hilarious thing where they're talking about the planet? Maybe it hasn't come yet. So the premise is a little bit like angel one where you have, you know, like a spaceship of people who are, you know, not federation. Here's the planet. Not Federation have landed on the planet. Look, Spock says something about it having an excellent road system. Like, that's the 1st that's one of the things that he notices. And I thought, yep, you know, I'll pay that. That's pretty good. But then they talk about these primitive transmissions, which I believe was called television. No, but they also talk about amplitude modulation and frequency modulation, like they have AM and FM radio, both kinds of radio even FM radio. Oh, my God. Sophisticated plan out. I mean, there is there is a fair few digs. uh, television in the script. There's the excellent road system. That's pretty good. I absolutely think the digs at TV are coming from Gene Roddenbury who's just pissed at this point. There's been so much involvement from the execs. Yeah. Yeah. Yes, there are some, there's that great line about where Flavius Maximus gets told that if he doesn't behave, they'll do a special on him. Brilliant. So here we have a news, they're watching the news. It's in black and white and the slaves are rebelling, well treated intelligent slaves. So we have slaves on this planet and they're rebelling, even though they're kind of intelligent. And here, when I saw this, where we're in the arena, but the arena is a shitty curve. Backdrop. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And it looks like nothing like where any, it's like it's not in an amphitheatre. like they're in a lovely garden or something. It's fucking tiny as well. Nowhere in Rome was that small. I'm telling you. Oh, dear, oh dear. Yeah, no, it looks ridiculous. Well, take a good look at it, all right? because you're going to see a lot of it in this episode. Well, in fact, what I really liked about it was, I was watching it going, wow, that is a really shitty set, and it turns out the reason it's a shitty set is, actually, she said. It's a shitty TV set. But when even we're getting very better now, when even the director of this episode is saying, wow, that's a really shitty set, we should have done better. Yeah, yeah. Yes. Okay. And so this is one as well, where just the 3 characters beamed down. Like, why is the science officer the captain and the chief medical officer beaming down this planet? Who knows? You know, like the show's potentially been cancelled. It's the last time we can do this. All right? That's why. Because next week we're doing a pilot for the next series. One last celebration. Yeah, yeah. Oh, you know, that new HD enterprise does look so great, doesn't it? It looks really good. doesn't it? And they haven't faffed around with it too much and still, you know, fairly basic looking, but it's a great model. I remember the 1st time I saw a truly sophisticated model shot of the original Star Trek in trials and tribulations. And I was like, wow, they were really were on the site. You just never could have told him those old games. No, no. Well, like when I was a kid and I watched these, they weren't in a good state, some of them, like some of them looked pretty rough, I think. Like obviously huge amounts of effort has gone into restoring them. I didn't realise only the 3 of them got their names in the titles. I never watched the titles because you know me, I don't like the music of original Star Trek. Madly. really like it. Oh, I see. the extraneous detail they add in. They put 2 moons in the sky there. Yeah, and they do else. Well, like when we see the planet from space as well. So I was getting, this looked to me like the place where Neelix was collecting Leola roots or some bullshit in maybe it was state of flux. just that open. It's not the same place. Oh, I'm not sure. I don't mention it in memory alpha, and I think they would mention that sort of thing. Right. But it is where the entrance to the batcave is in Batman, the TV. And does feature in several movies as well. So it's a very popular location. Yeah, yeah. And where are we? So the interesting thing is that they speak English, so is this America, like why do they speak English? It's the 20th century and you think about, you know, what's the biggest empire, I guess at this point, it's the Russians, isn't it in a way, but the Americans are sort of imperial. All of these shots of buildings and stuff that we get are American buildings with Ionic columns and Corinthian columns and stuff like with, with, you know, that look like they're classical and all of the major American public buildings are classical as well. So are we talking about America? Does this episode strive to say something about America? I think you're putting more thought into this than perhaps the genes were. Yeah. I think they just found some, you know, Roman looking architecture and where that will do. They went, that'll do. But I mean, it is kind of telling, isn't it? You know, that, that there, that there is some way in which American politics looks back on Roman politics. It has a Senate, you know, like it has a capital. Like, you know, all of those things. Is it ever stated where we are? In the script. No, no, it isn't. Like, we, they recognise that these people speak English, which, as we said before, is just absurdly implausible. But like whatever. Can I say one thing I'll notice, because I think all its location work is superb. And you mentioned in state of flux is a really good comparison because this location work, it has a cinematic looks to it. They're doing sort of long shot. Look at this shot now. them approaching. Scale. everyone's very small in the shot. It's a big location. And it's a big location in a state of lux, but it's all tight shots in state of lux. I think somewhere along the way, we stopped trying to do Hollywood and we started doing TV. I think you might be right. And there was like a minute ago when they were walking along. There was a really smooth tracking shot and I'm like, how is this shot better in 1960, whatever than in 1990? I think you're right. So this is handsome Flavius Maximus. Yes, I like him kind of main lead, our sort of main guest actor. Lovely old. It's him and Septimus. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, and these are slaves. And the way that we know that they're slaves is they're wearing gray t-shirts with chains, like chain links on an egg. And like so is Drusilla later. So that's, and so slavery is a thing. And there's a wonderful line later on. And that's the other thing that made me think about America, where slave conditions have got better as time has gone by. It's been 2000 years since, you know, our ancient Rome is at its height. And so slavery, you know, now comes with healthcare and old age pensions and stuff. We don't even know we are slaves anymore. Is it us? Like, is that us? I think they like ours? Yeah. Do you know what I mean? So it seemed to be a sort of critique of capitalism in a way. like a sort of backhanded critique. And so is the cruelty of this empire, because how can Americans be going? Oh, you know, Christianity will come along and it'll rid us of a brutal cruelty of ancient Rome when America had a massive, you know, slave workforce, and it was involved in the slave trade, and you know, what these public feelings were built by enslaved people. They somehow forgotten about all the holy wars as well, which is a bit of an oversight, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. And that 1st World War that they mentioned is Christians in Europe all killing one another by the 1000000s, you know. like it's very strange. very odd. I'm just to hear any sort of religion mentioned in Star Trek is very odd. It's very strange. Especially in a positive way when we know Roddenbury went into TNG going, no religion. We're above that now. Yeah, we're past religion. We're, you know, like a post, you know, post-religion utopia. We have science, you know. Are you trying to suggest that in our society now, you know, just so we are aware that, you know, we're all living pre-programmed lives and we're all controlled and we're all slaves. We should be living out in caves, we're in these jumpsuits with changes on them. These guys have escaped. These guys have escaped, you see? This is the better life, is it? Yeah. Well, though they're living in caves and living in primitive conditions. Did you get the dialogue earlier where they all explain the, um prime directive? That's a really bad example of just the 3 of them all explaining the prime directive to each other. What I did like about the prime director for this was when the what's the fellow's name who's in charge? Septimus. Septimus goes. America's the other guy. No, Claudius Marcus. Yeah, whatever his name is. He goes, I'm very aware of your prime directive. I've had it explained to me, and I'm also aware that you can't do anything to stop me, so no, no, no, no, no, no. I was like, that's great. Just get it out of shit. you know? But bizarrely, apparently they all swear an oath to die rather than violate the prime directive. And Spot confirms that. And then McCoy goes, do you have to be so damn honest all the time you know? And it's kind of like, wait. like Jadeway violates the prime drain of all the time. She decided to go, oh, I better die now. I thought you were doing a chain my impression then, if I'm honest. Or Picard, you know, rescuing Wesley. Justice are you talking about? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, limey. This poor fellow here, he just gets to be very amiable, doesn't he? You know? Yeah, and like, so I don't think the person who's done the closed captions has got the note, because he keeps saying son S-U-N rather than S-O-N, every time he's talking. It's because it's a surprise at the end. I think it would ruin it. otherwise. I love this magazine. Holy crap, I love this, mate. it's so much. It's so great. No Jupiter 8. But it's such a terrific 60s style magazine, Mars toothpaste. We don't want to watch that. Can you just flip through the magazine so we can look at the other words, yeah. Taken from the names of false gods. Although, I do think it was a bit much. It was Jupiter on one page, Mars on the next. Venus on the next. They do that, though. It's still sort of a thing. So it's, I don't know. The... Like, there's something about these people that I like, and I do like the fact that Flavius, Marcus, Flavius Maximus, rather, used to be a gladiator, and now he's a Christian, and he doesn't want to kill, and he's against the games, and that, see, why is this guy called Merricus? Why is the, so they call him the 1st citizen, which is what the emperor was called. He was the Primkebs, the 1st citizen. He wasn't a monarch, originally, when Augustus takes over. just the chief citizen. And so they use that term. They don't talk about the emperor, do they, in this? They don't talk about the emperor at all. They talk about the 1st citizen. But that's what the Romans called, called Augustus. But he's called Americus. Like, I just can't think he's called Americus, and we're not trying to say anything about America. You know, like it just seems like an odd coincidence. I didn't even get that you know. But do you think, am I just going crazy? Maybe they just thought Merrick was a cool name and then he would be America's. He's like spokesperson for America, devout Christian, doesn't want to hurt anybody. No, no, no, no. This guy's Septimus. Americus is the 1st citizen. Americus is the bad guy, the guy from the SSB Eagle, who is now the emperor and has Claudius Marcus as his proconsol. There's too many of these bloody Roman names, Nathan. Yeah. So, so Flavus and Septimus are the 2 Christians who speak, and then Americus is the, the, the guy Merrick, who Kirk knows. So what are they trying to say then? What do you think they're trying to say? Well, I don't know, but I think that it's obvious to draw a parallel between 20th century, between 20th century America and Rome. Do you know what I mean? Like that seems like an obvious thing to do. Um, And they've already kind of made the joke about comparing slaves to employees, you know, the slaves have kind of gradually become employees. Um, Yeah. I don't know. And if Americus is a massive sellout, like he is here. What are we trying to say about America? Well, no, no, I just think that because he just, he's the chief, I don't know. It's just a name. Do you know what I mean? But it just makes you think of America. I can't imagine Gene Roddenbury's putting that much forward to this. Maybe, maybe. Who knows? I mean, yeah. Yeah. Do we have a shootout now? Well, I'm going to talk and then the police turn up and start shooting at the trees. We are going to talk a little bit about Christianity as well. And my favourite bit of dialogue about this is Flavia says, you know, like Flavia still wants to kill and sometimes thinks he has to kill. And when he 1st meets Spock McCoy and Kirk, he considers killing them as a thing, and I know killing's evil, but I kind of want to do it. But he also knows that all men are brothers. And I like, there's a bit where Kirk just says, he doesn't say, um you know, your religion's right or the son is real or whatever, but he does say, no, but you're right, all men are brothers, and I like that a lot. I think that's great. That's very Star Trekie. So within all of this, uh, I want to say tedium, that's too strong of a word. within all of this confused narrative. There are little moments. Little gems. Yeah. And, you know, like, like, I don't know. Is there something in the 60s happening, are there Jesus people? I just don't know what's enough about what how this landed at the time. don't think what it's trying to be. is clear enough in itself. Maybe if it was, then you wouldn't be asking those questions, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And like there is always, even that sort of the cheesy kind of B movie 50s and crap an earlier. Do you know what I mean? Where you have to kind of pretend that Christianity is true or America's important or whatever. Um, like it does seem like a little bit of a throwback to that. It doesn't seem to fit in Star Trek at all. It's bafflingly weird, isn't it? Well, it's rottenberry a question. I don't know. Well, no, he's so horny. I just thought he must have been, you know, like that. Most Christians are a nation. I just thought he was like, you know, like a kind of leftist of some kind. I mean, I'm a little bit horny watching them in those gray, um those gray outfits now. William Shadow looks lovely in it. Is this random news film or they actually gone out and shot that? I don't know, but you can see they've got American style buildings. This one is the Legion of Honour art gallery in San Francisco. Trouble is, is you have these hugely ornate outside shots and then we come into the studios and they're all tiny. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Although this isn't too bad. Is it this prison set? I think we've been in this set. This is, you know, like the equivalent of the cade set in 90s trek. We were in a prison set in that. The one where the green woman exploded. you remember? Ah, yeah, yeah. that's true They just keep they keep the bars and just put the different walls out. Put different walls in. Different gels, different gels. So we're lighting this one red. It is lovely light, though. And there's, they do do some nice bits with um, how Spock and McCoy. care about Kirk in this. Well, there's a couple of character bits in this. They are quite nice. Yeah, so I just don't know. That snippy relationship between McCoy and Spark. It just feels like a bit well trodden at this and he automatically goes to the ears and then Spock automatically raises his eyebrow and I'm like, I know I know you've sort of discovered this is fun and this can reap some character rewards. But I was like, oh, we're still doing this. Yeah, so slavery evolving into an institution, he said. Yeah, no, and obviously it was already an institution. I don't know what he means by institution, but I think, you know where people have rights and stuff like that. I don't know. I think I think my big problem with this was the very 1st scene was like the bullshit explanation as to how this parallel evolution happened. I just didn't buy it. So from the from the off, I'm like, yeah, I just don't believe that this would ever happen. And I know it has and it's being presented and that's Star Trek and all of that. But I also, you know, like if if we're going to throw things out on the grounds of just how plausible the premises, kind of the whole show goes. You know, like, you've not remember when I watched Genesis. I was tearing my hair out in that one. But this, you know, this is just a thing they decide not to do. Do you know what I mean? This is a slider's premise in some ways, isn't it? Like you slide into a parallel universe where the Roman Empire never fell. I mean this is way more entertaining than that. Did you ever watch sliders? It was always just a little bit to the left. You know, it was never fun enough to watch. He said there that all men are brothers is something that was kept from us all these years. It's a bit obvious, isn't it? No, but like just because this is a society that treats people with such brutality, where there's such inequality, you know, where people go to the arena and watch people get killed for entertainment, and that becomes a big problem for Christianity. Do you know what I mean? Like Christianity, whatever it becomes, when it 1st starts, there are people who say we don't go to the theatre, we don't go to the games, they're brutal and cruel, and, you know, Christians were martyred at events like this. I wonder then, I don't know. I wonder then if as presented. This isn't as brutal as it could be because I wasn't really seeing a brutal society. I was just seeing a couple of people with shitty plastic swords gang. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The plastic shields and stuff. That's right, because they can't properly sell it. It might be telling us, but I'm not really seeing it. No, I do just love later, though. Did you see the guy that when when Spock gives the guy the Falcon neck pinch and he looks at the camera and his mouth opens and he kind of falls down? he does such a dramatic going unconscious bit of acting as well fabulous Vulcan history. Next picture is later on, isn't it, when they're fighting? Although, please watch McCoy when they're in the gladiatorial arena because he keeps looking at Spock whilst fighting with his sword at the same time. I'm like, will you fucking focus? Because there's that moment where Flavius, who's fighting him, says can you defend yourself? You know, can you and at least defend yourself? And he goes, I am defending myself. The cameras are rolling, mate. They've given you good lying. Oh, dear. So this is Mercus, who was the captain of the Beagle and was known to Kirk from the academy, but he dropped out. You are right. We do do this a couple of times because that fellow, when the green woman exploded, he was an ex, an ex Starfleet man, wasn't he as well? Well, in fact, Strangely Worlds did this, this premise, the thing that it reminded me of. There's an episode called Among the Lotus Eaters where a former crew member who I think Pike thinks was left for dad is found to be the ruler of a planet, but they go and visit. And so they've, they borrow from this. Is it a fabulous Roman inspire planet? No, no? No, not at all. It's very weird and kind of miserable that episode. thought it was interesting. Look at this set. I know I said I'll talk about the design a bit, but a fabulously lit bed in the background there, the flaming torch in the front. There's a big pot there and those bloody furs on the floor. I know, they look so shit, don't they? Someone's cut out a carpet, doesn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's very sparse. It doesn't look very good. It doesn't look particularly Roman, I think. Oh, look, here's the height of sophistication. Salad on a plate. Well, so there's the thing here. So there's a, you know, a public historian, um, merry bed, who, uh you might have seen on television. She's a Roman historian, and she says that it's the 1st time that it gets mentioned in a TV episode that said in ancient Rome that dormice are mentioned as something that you might eat. Okay. And and the fires of Pompeii and Doctor Who mentions it almost immediately. I think Peter Capole to get to mention it. Here we don't mention it, but it swallows. I think it's like birds in Garum and Garum is the fish sauce, a little bit like fish sauce from Southeast Asia. It was one of the big experts of exports of Pompeii. It was like, um, and it was just like you leave the fish to rot and ferment and voila profit. You can sell it, and it's called fish sauce, and it would have just been absolutely fucking... But all of the descriptions of Roman food that you get to read and are just like, oh, no, so this is eel fed on sewage. And it's, you know, like, oh, dear idea. I'll put some strange things in my mouth in my time, but the things you've just described. I may think twice. Yeah, see this, he's kind of saying, they have slavery here in ancient Rome, and it's kind of like, this is the 20th century. You know, how many decades away are we from slavery in the United States, you know? And Spock spectacularly fails to get the numbers right when listing the fatalities during the 1st 2nd and as yet to come 3rd World War. I think he'd probably write about the 3rd World War. Well, yeah, well, yeah. I can't really dismiss it. But when memory alpha, who obviously they get their details. Right, right. Yeah, when they list it, he's out by quite a lot and in the wrong direction as well. Okay, amazing. I'm very unlike Spock though. Yes, yes. So this world didn't have the 3 world wars in the 21st century. Is that it? That's right. But they have been slaughtering people in their games and slavery. Yeah, yeah. For the same amount of time. So, yeah, sure. That's what this argument's about, is it? They're no better and no worse. I think part of the problem is that no one wears a toga. What, there's no visual. Yeah. Don't you think? Like, he's wearing some spangly ass thing here. He looks very little pants, you know, like the slaves wearing tiny shorts and gray t-shirts and stuff. It looks like he's dressed up from the mediaeval times. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And you just sort of think, if this is ancient Rome, sell it to me as ancient Rome. Like, if we're doing a gladiator, because... What is true? When she comes in. Has she got a toga? Oh, some, I don't know. 1960s chiffon, yeah. Yeah, that's right. Oh, they must be sophisticated. Look at that pot behind Spark, and there's a lovely statue behind McCoy. Yes, yes, I did see that. And the police too. They just look shit. Maybe they look like Italian police. It does look like ribena though, doesn't it? You're a connoisseur of red wine, you know, you wouldn't drink it without watery, would you? I don't think so. Oh, this stuff with Scottish. Do you know what? As we've explored the original series. I find Scotty a bit annoying. Do you? I just, yeah, I just don't think there's much about him, but he sort of sits there on the bridge full of arrogance, like, something suspicious is going on down there. We'll wait. So who do you think is better? Scotty or Arax? Oh, Axe is amazing. I don't know I get the impression that Jimmy Dewan, I have read some bits to confirm this, that he was a bit sick of not getting enough to do, which is why they start bumping up his row in too. And then a lot in 3. Oh, okay. So we do get Scotty in the final episode of series 2 of Strange New World, and he's played by someone Scottish. It's revolutionary. They don't care about Star Trek's legacy. It was one of my favourite jokes in Star Trek, Picard, where on La Serena, Rios had the emergency engineering hologram, which was just him doing a shitty fake Scottie Jackson. But he sounded just like Jimmy, Jimmy, do it. I mean, we know how dextrous his voice is after watching the animated series. As we've said, master of dialect, Jimmy Tuan. See, at this point, there's too much talk. Get him in the arena already. No, I'm super bored at this point. I think. Yeah. Yeah. We've had enough of these luxurious surroundings now. Now we're going to look at this Brazier for a while. Did you see him there with his fingers steepled? I wonder if they'll put on a good show. Oh here we go. Up to the Enterprise now. Look, look at him sitting there on the bridge and like he's Captain Kirk. Like he owns the place. Yeah. Who's behind it, guy? Please give me a line, anything. Oh, say anything about gold. Talk about the Son of God at the end. Is that Chekov? not entirely sure. Yeah, yeah, no, it's Chekhov. Chehov. Bless him. I've been watching Walter Canick, you know, on Babylon 5. That show that you've never heard of. No, I didn't even know what it is. He's very sinister, isn't it, though? I didn't know he could act, especially after watching him in Star Trek. Oh, look at him. Jimmy doing that knowing sort of nought. Come on. So he gets them out of it, doesn't he? And he's going, I'm really going to threaten them and what does he do? He cuts the power to the TV studio at a vital moment. That was nice then. Did you say? He started the shot on the backcloth of the cloisters and then he pulls away. Yeah, see the thing. And so my favourite thing. Were they doing the candles? That is... That's the best part of the episode is the guy on the soundboard with the big dials that say... But you know where I figured this was going? So they start talking about TV in the very 1st scene and then we realise this has all been broadcast. I thought this was going to be about television rather than about Romans. And I think that might be a bit more fun. The desperate things you have to do to get your ratings up. Yeah, I mean, gestures at it, doesn't it? It sort of hints at it. So this show is called name the winner, and it's sponsored by the people who brought you Jupiter 8, and it's called name the winner because you name the winner. Oddly, there's no studio audience, probably because we can't afford one. Is that a genuine 1960s camera there? I don't know, I hope so. fucking imagine if it is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. very impressive. It's that size. Oh, these 2 gladiators. Russell Crowe, are they? No, no. But this is the best bit. The guy, even his label as sound effects. You know how on Batman, everything has a label, like on the 60s Batman from this era, literally everything is labelled. And so sound effects guy is sitting in a board, which is labelled sound effects from so that you know what it is. And he's got 4 big tiles that say laughter, cat calls, booze. They couldn't come to town, couldn't they? They could have had backdrop written next to that. They could have had, you know, shitty statuettes, switch it to the left there. So these guys are wearing helmets of of Mormilones, which are a type of Roman gladiator. So there we're trying a bit. He's unlike unlike D, who's not trying at all. When I was 8 years old, right? Me and my sister had foam swords. Okay, which we would go at each other, we would have sword fights and it was more vicious than this. I'm telling you. Yeah, yeah, but these guys are scared of hitting one another. Like, at least, like, so notice too. So we've had the da, da, da, da. music early on, like almost immediately. We are going to get the da, da, da, da, da, da, da music for this. They've been cancelled. We can't have any original music. I just use this. Booze, hisses, and catcalls. hisses, booses, and catcalls. I do imagine if we... We should get that board for the podcast. I like the juxtaposition of the Roman gear and the machine gun. I think that's a really fun visual. Yeah, yeah. when they come in with machine guns. I think that's pretty awesome. But I hate these cheap arse plastic sheer will save God. They look so cheap and lightweight. Well, yeah, I think they're kind of probably aluminium painted a bright colour of very light metal. I think they are metal, aren't they? I don't know, but they look really shitty, don't they? They might just switch it on now and you'd be like, oh, they're really not making an effort anymore in Star Trek. I can see the studio lights over there. Budget cuts. We've just pulled in any old asshole to direct this thing. Those gladiators are wearing very tiny pants. Look at them. A little skirts, aren't they? But imagine for a second. none of this would never happen. But you imagine that arena from Attack of the Clones. Do you remember? That huge arena where they've, that's what this should be like, you know? Yeah, of course. in story terms. Do you know, I hate Attack of the Clones so much. It's such a shitty film, but the arena been at the end. That's great. I am defending myself. He's not even broken a fucking sweat. There's no blood on him or anything. It's like... You know. At least in the 90s, right? They do get a bit roughed up when they have a fight. You know, the hair falls into disarray, at least. And they'll give them a bruise or a, you know, blood or something. But that time when Kira got stabbed in Way of the Warrior, and the knife was in her, all her blood was all over her uniform. Yeah, yeah. Oh, well, it's the 60s, a more innocent time. Yeah, and like, I don't even know what's happening in this scene as well. Like, I mean, he's trying to outside him or out or something like like, what do we want? Like, what does Claudius Marcus want the captain to do? Or does he want him to bring his men down? And so this is supposed to persuade Kirk to bring his men down to the planet? What, so they can fight and? Well, just, I don't know. Oh, remember because he didn't want, he didn't want the beagle to leave, so obviously he doesn't want the enterprise to leave. And is Kirk just here to take his mate away? Is that the only reason he's come down here? Well, he's come to rescue them because they were stranded, but fortunately, they're all dead except for, and then later on, he's dead. isn't he? He's the captain. He's there. drink at all of this. fucking emperor. So as soon as they realise this, shouldn't they have just gone? Yeah. Oh, it would be a short episode then. Oh, I do like the fellow in the background there. Just see him in the soup with the handheld camera. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe that's how you do the handheld camera work. We're getting a good education, 60s TV making here. Actually, there's some nice thighs on display as well, it looks like. I actually really like that blocking the scene with like... Oh, there's... There's Double Dare. So bad. completely different hair. It could be anyone's stunt double. No. Leonard Nimmo is hot though when he's in action. Yeah, yeah, yeah, he is, isn't he? Jad Singer Dax was right. Yep, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Oh, fact. Do you remember when they were doing all that talking and we said get on with the action? Yeah, now they're doing reaction. I just wish I'd get back to the talking, you know? Well, no, I don't know. I just do think that both of them are boring. I can't believe there's still 14 minutes to go. Like what the hell are you going to do? It just feels directionist, doesn't it? It feels like, yeah, one, they haven't taken hold of the idea and sort of explored it in any interesting sort of a way. And two, I just don't really know what anyone's trying to achieve at this point. And why? Yeah, because this should be the climax, but it isn't. And then we come back to here after faffing about with the scene with Drusilla, and then there's another scene where Claudius Marcus, whose name is just irritatingly backwards. for some reason. I don't know why he's not Marcus Claudius, but like whatever. Are you suggesting that if Kirk didn't have his contractual obligation to get his end away? We could have ended the episode right now. Yeah, well, like we just go back here after this. Like, he has sex with Drew Cilla in, like, she sells the enthusiastic consent thing, but she's a slave, and she constantly talks, so it's yucky. There's something yucky about it. That's not... I think we would rather think more of Captain Kirk if he said, no you're all right. I'm just going to bed. Instead, he goes, oh, you have to do this, do you? Well, let's go. Yeah, that's right, you. I mean, she does seem to be into it, but like, what is she wearing? That's, uh, I think a lot of people in the Second World War, you know, slept with German people and made it look as if they were really enjoying themselves. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right. You just do what you have to to survive. But yes, so it is kind of a bit yucky, isn't it? I mean, look, a fabulous 60s hair, though. Look at it. I know, the hair is really incredible. Somewhat get her a Hollywood contract now. Someone has invented peroxide in the last 2000 years. Maybe she should be in a toga. That's a very science fiction-y costume she's got. Yeah, yeah. that's what I think. I just never buy it Like, if you want to make it roam, then go for it. You see, I can only... It's only an on, mate, the set design. A bit? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Set designers, will you please talk to the costumiers, please? Exactly. Oh, this is quite a nice scene. I like this scene. And particularly the way that he says, I'm just testing the war the bars and McCoy says for the 15th time. superhuman strength spot then. Yeah, of course he does. Oh, I can't even bend the balls then. Well, just, you know, they, they're too strong for Vulcans as well. Okay. Yeah, like I kind of like that. So this gets quite heated and most of them are being pricks, aren't they? Because McCoy wants to thank Spock for saving his life and Spock is being a dick about it and refuses to accept his thanks and sort of analyses it and dismisses it, you know, where McCoy's actually trying to be nice, and then McCoy just rounds on him and is a prick as well. Because they're frustrated, but then they find a moment that connects them when they both actually admit. It's just like, well, it's beautiful, and it's, it's, it's, um it's McCoy who says, yes, I'm really worried about Jim as well, and Spock acknowledges it, and I thought that was very nice. And like if this was the end of the show, then that resolves it. You pointed your own Hobgoblin. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so he's being a pretty... Do not ever complain about the term spoonhead again, all right? I did like it, though. The inference is that Spock is scared to let his humans like that isn't it? That's what he says to him. He goes, yeah, are you scared if you let it out? You actually might feel something. Even this. The last of our ships search and whatever I think of his lovely skill. I'm gonna find an excuse for this and I'm gonna burn you as well. Good. Oh, so it can be fun. But don't you think, like, this is their last chance to do this? And so they do it. and it kind of resolves in a way. Like, this would be a nice place to leave them. You know, because that's a really cruel thing that he's saying now. Well, you could never have a genuine do about a genuine, warm feeling. And he's he's slightly hurt. Look at him. Look at how he's playing it. And then they look at each other Look, look. That's really very beautiful. Then Def Forrest, he's down, doesn't he? Yeah. That's right. Because Spock is playing it as genuinely hurt by what's been said and then they're in the, they are both feeling bereft, you know? Then we cut to him fucking. Do you know what I mean? Like, they're very white, and he's drinking wine with a beautiful woman, which I also think are the cuts that seem beautifully. It's only we'd known we wouldn't have given a shit, you know? Of course he's having sex with a slave. Oh, I was going to say something that's totally left my head. Never mind. How many sons do you imagine Jim Kirk has around the universe now? Oh, God, I don't like to think about it. Thank God they killed off David, that bastard. Did he sleep with that green woman before she exploded? I won't ever stop talking about it. Yeah, no, but I don't think there was enough time for her to give birth. So look at look at how they do the sex as well in this scene, which I just think is as cheesy as well. They come upwards, and then when they go each you up. I know. they even fade. go up and then go down. Let's have a look. So we're kissing. The camera goes up and looks at the lamp. Oh yeah, there you go. Quick fade. So the lamp now the flames are gone. fade to the flames have gone. He's massive of time. Yeah, he hasn't taken his pants off. Sam only said sex with Drusilla without taking his pants off. Oh, wow. Do you think he'd have his willy hanging out or something? Like, why is he... I do not need to see William Shatner's not being foulish. But he sees you had sex without tech. Oh, he's... Like, how's he falling? He's shown over and fall. A little inset into my sex life here, but very often, you know, as soon as I'm done, I'll have a shower and put my clothes back on. I'm not one to sit around naked, you know, all sticky. Yeah, no, no, but I thought he just sort of passed out of sleep after having sex, you see? I think he just undid his zipper and did it that way. It's not that great. I don't think that's that great. how desperate we've got in this episode. Well, because now we're talking about, now we're talking about we're talking to Claudius Marcus about whatever the fuck it is. What are we talking about now? Oh, Claudius Marcus said he sort of pimped him out. Because you're a man to give him the last night of being a man before I have you executed. What does that even mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, if I'd have been there? in that situation, I'd have been very disappointed. That's how you want me to go. Yeah, no, that's true. I'd be like, send in one of your gladiators. Come on. Yeah, I'll have a 2 leads. Oh, they're a slave, are they? Oh, I'm feeling a bit more re conflict. Now, let's go. do it anyway. Oh, dear. Yeah, and so now we're going to have him executed. So all of that was kind of pointless. Like we just going to where we were. defiance because he's not allowed to start calling his men down. I think it's because it's the climax of the story. Yeah, I think perhaps in order to get us back in the TV studio. And they've sort of preempted the late show and so this is preempted, meaning that it's, you know, this is on. Like the execution's going to be on instead of the regularly scheduled programming. We're going back to the, yeah, we preempted the show 15 minutes. Could, you know, going back to what you were saying earlier about the parallels between the Roman Empire and 20th century America. Could this episode have reached a conclusion about this? Um, yeah, I don't know. No, it doesn't bother, but there are things that it could do. I mean, you just watch it and you think all of these things that could be done better. It's not really Roman enough. Beyond beyond it being a quirky idea, there's sort of visually strange to watch. What's Star Trek about this? What's it saying about the human condition and seeking out new lives and new civilisations and all of this? Yeah, no, it doesn't, we don't learn anything, do we? It is just... I think this is the template for series three, which is, oh, my God, wouldn't it be great if, and then there's no thought at all behind... about what happens next? Yeah, so we just tap around. You should get a great free title sequence where they introduce the idea and then there is faffing around for the next 40 minutes. Oh, Shatner really killed that guy good. Look at that. So, yeah, and again, it's so crap. It's like the guy comes in with a machine gun and just kills a bunch of people. No, no, no, no. terrible with that gunny. He don't hit anyone at all. No, no. No, but Flavius Maximus is dead now, you know, like the big old gladiator guy, whatever the Lenista guy is dead. Um, Yeah. Is this the bit now in a minute where he gets a knife in the back or have I missed that bit? No, that's coming. That's coming up. That's the only bit of blood you see in the whole thing. The knife comes out and it's sort of got to be a tiny bit of jam on it. Merrick saves him like Merrick saves him. We were always sort of headed now, though, weren't we? I think so. Yeah, because you've got Marcus, Claudius Marcus kind of humiliating him all the time. Yeah, so the whole thing just, it kind of just devolves into a load of action. Yeah, yeah, crappy action. Kind of poorly staked. Look at that. What's that? The police are knocking one another over. you know, like it's all just bullshit. Okay. Now, the, um, oh, God, I've forgotten his name. He looks like he's dressed up for the generation game now. He's got a sort of gold lame top on. Yeah, yeah. So I kind of like this. Yeah, so now Merrick dies after saving them and then they fire the machine guns into the thing and a gorgeous reaction there from Marcus and then they've disappeared and that's the end of the episode, except we've got this embarrassing tag. sort of got his hand on his thigh like a panto villain and he's waving his knife about. But no one's been punished. No one's been criticised or anything at all. They just go. Yeah. What we've have our fun. let's go Except what we get is this thing where she says that the sun worshippers are worshipping not the sun, but the sun of God. And then, then we get, um, them theorising, like immediately, um uh, Kirk says, Caesar and Christ, they had them both, and now Christianity is going to spread. So Christianity spreads in our world, you know, gets going in the 1st century or whatever. Here it's just getting going in the 20th century. And it... Are they saying the 2 worlds are going to converge, like ours and theirs? just we're just late. They're just late. Yeah, yeah. But, I mean, the idea that Christianity is a philosophy of total love and total brotherhood is true-ish, and, you know, on some level, it's true, but in practice, you know, like that's not quite how it goes down. Let's count up how many people die. the Roman Empire compared to how many people died in holy wars. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I seriously think, like, you have to count. Well, War one. those were all Christian nations, you know, like they were all populated by Christians, all just slaughtering each other in the 1000000s, you know, like it's one of the reasons I think that Christianity loses its grip on everyone in the 20th century. British history is littered. Yeah, yeah. Religious monarchs. You have a good, good old Queen Mary, you know. Start the fire. I don't think this is going to be a better earth as a result. No, yeah, I don't know. And yet they all sort of go so strange. Oh, how jolly. But it's kind of like, and then none of them will ever mention Christ again, and Christianity just never seems to be a thing. So what's happening there? And it, like, to be fair, McCoy does call Christianity a philosophy of total love and total brotherhood. Do you know what I mean? So, like, and was such a, so see that shot there? Are you watching the closing credits or have you go to the next one now? Oh, it's the Simon Earth. How wonderful. Yeah, it's a great one, isn't it? They're just choosing to go back in time as we speak. Do you remember? Well, we'll just pop back in time and see what's happening. Yeah we can do that. We're talking about, we had our arms for next week. We've been cancelled. What's that? We're coming back for series 3 shit. It's such a lovely idea. It's such a lovely idea in concept, isn't it? A brotherhood of man, peace, love, and all of that for everybody. And then you just put that idea into the heads of men and, well, it all falls apart, unfortunately. Yeah, a strange conclusion to draw. A very, very, very weird thing, which I did like they don't seem to explain it. No one seems to acknowledge how bafflingly strange it is on memory alpha. I went there to say, what the hell do people think of this, you know? Um, and maybe people think it's dumb. I don't know. But... Well, there's no quotes about this. about everything else about everyone arguing whilst making this episode. So, like, I think the only reference to religion apart from alien religion in Star Trek, the Next Generation is Diwali, which gets a mention on data's day, which, you know, it takes place on the day of the Festival of Diwali, so that gets a mention, so Hinduism is still a thing or a tradition or something in the 24th century, but no one's Christian in Star Trek, are they? Like, it seems... So when it comes to the conclusion that we're above all of that and actually it was more trouble than it was worth. Yeah, we've evolved it all. So this is a this is the polar opposite of that conclusion. But like I said earlier on, I just think the way that Nichelle says, it's the son of God. You know, like it's so great. She's so awesome. She's like, she's like Sigourney Weafer in Galaxy. to believe it. Do you know, she goes, I've only got 5 lines in this fucking episode and I'm going to make them all count. But she nails it. It's superb. I have a suspicion that Gene Brodenbury wrote the bulk of this episode and that fabulous scene inside the cell between McCoy and Spock. Gene Coombe wrote that bit. Now, I'm not saying Gene Coop wrote everything great and Roddenberry couldn't write anything because clearly... He did some good scripts in season one. It's just everything after that. I think his toy box was emptied after that. But that was just a bit... It's not flat because it's quite interesting to look at. It's doing some weird things and we like weird. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think I think you were right in recognising, and I hadn't thought of this at the time, that it's crap in the particular way that crap series 3 is crap, where there's a setting and some odd things going on, but basically most of the time we're standing around talking and the villain is being a villain. Yeah, space hippies. That would be a fun idea. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then we all just kind of hang around. Like there's no plot. Like nothing, nothing happens. What do you want in television? What if a load of evil children beamed onto the enterprise and start turning everyone into killers? And that's a great idea until you do it and then you realise it's really shit, you know? What if Spock lost his brain? And they had to drive him by remote control. No, that was just a terrible idea. terrible, terrible idea. I think June Coon was like, right, I don't ever want to write for this show again. I'm going to write this script and they'll never ask me back. all forget my telephone number. Mark Daniels looked at the script and went, I'll never directing this show again. Jane Roddenbury is like, is this what we're doing? I'm out. Freddie Freiburger. It's yours. Yeah, it's very, very strange. I was expecting to really quite like this. and I was bored more often than not. Yeah. In a way that even the best and the worst of the original series hasn't before me. Yeah, a bit disappointing. Yeah. All right, it's the end of the episode, and it is time for us to find out what we're watching next. We're leaving Imperial Rome behind, and it is time to go somewhere else. Where else are we going? We may not begin, though. I think there's other Roman episodes. We may be going back to Imperial Rome. I have decided because the last couple of times I have chosen where we're going. It's been primarily 90s trek. So I am going to put in every Kurtzman show, including Short Treks and see what we get. But chances are it be a discovery, because I think there's, it's that's the highest percentage. Most of them. Yeah. Okay. Oh, one we've done. Your random Star Trek Strange New Worlds episode is Strange New Worlds. Series one, episode one. Okay. Your random Star Trek lower deck? Oh my god. Look. What is it? A mathematically perfect redemption. Oh, yes, so good. Season 3 of the best episodes ever. Episode seven. Yep, yep. Peanut Hamper. Oh, on the planet of Third. That is so great. And Lodex is coming back soon as well, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's back in October, just in a few weeks time. So yes. That might be the best episode. That's lower decks. You know, really good, isn't it? I love it so much. She's so funny. Just brilliant. totally breaking with the format. Yes, let's do it. Let's Absolutely. Brilliant. You've been listening to Untitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford and Nathan Bottomley, where online at Untitled Star Trek project com, where you can find subscription links and links to our social media accounts. Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceran, and the theme was composed by Cameron Lamb. This episode was recorded on the 10th of September 2024 and released on the 13th of September. We'll see you next time for Star Trek Lower Decks, a mathematically perfect redemption. I didn't know you could do that till the other day. Yeah, have you seen that? Apple Podcasts has just transcribed our whole, all of our episodes. I didn't ask for that. I mean, I mean, actually, if I download them and make them searchable. Yeah, that's right. He's so... search for jammer. 1500. Well, search for them. Bem and Jabber and Stars. Yeah. Yeah. One BM is 2.5 stars. exchange, right? Yeah. did do that once. did, yeah, yeah. So that's one. 5 thems, is it? How about I less do this? All right, okay. Hey, Joe. Hi.