Kir’Shara

Hey, Joe. Hi. So, we are having an unusual experience today, and that is watching an episode of Enterprise that both of us thought was pretty good. Yeah, I've got some sort of hyperbole for you straight off. What the hell is this? Character drama. Special effects, politicking. Like, where's this been for the last 4 years? Yeah, so I watched about the 1st 5 episodes of series 4 on a plane one time. I can't remember exactly. And I really liked it, and I think the reason is that it serialised not just in a sort of series of trilogies, but throughout the thing, and that seems to give it a bigger scope. Some things happen in this trilogy that are taken from the movies rather than from TV Star Trek, you know. And so it has that sort of scale. And that's really fun. I thought that that was really interesting. In the 1st 2 seasons of Enterprise, I feel as if the only thing that matters is the starship enterprise. Suddenly, we're on a wider canvas. We're doing the DS9 thing of actually looking at what's around us. And a lot of this, you know. I know our regulars, well, our key regulars get a lot to do, but actually a lot of this is given over to interesting guest characters, you know, and races that we don't often spend a lot of time with. I really like that. I really like that sort of fleshing out of what, it's not even called the alpha quadrant at this point, is it? No, but yes. Yeah, yeah. The universe. Yeah, it's funny, isn't it? Because, you know, there's that thing that they said where they wanted series one to end with the launch of enterprise and for it to be about the sort of politics of this version of Earth. And I always thought that was a terrible idea because I just thought they wouldn't have been able to pull it off. And I still think that's right. But there's something there. Isn't there? Like, it's not a completely terrible idea because this is a version of enterprise that investigates the world before original Star Trek. And so we have Tellerites, and we have Andorians, and we have Vulcans, and what this trilogy does. So we're watching Keshara, which is about episode 9 of series 4. And what's happening here is that the version of the Vulcans that we always disliked and all of the complaints we had about the Vulcans in episodes like stigma, for instance, in broken bow. It was one of the things I didn't like about Broken Bow, was the relationship between humanity and Vulcan was so adversaryal. was kind of nasty in both directions. They address that here. And characters that we didn't like in Broken Bow come are coming good now. Yeah, yeah. Well, I actually think that it was always wrong. Like, it was always the intention. This isn't just Manikoto coming along and saying, well, let's say all the things that are wrong with the Vulcans in enterprise because they've been led the wrong way and they've lost sight of Surak's teachings, because that was already there, wasn't it, in things like stigma, around the fact that they couldn't mind meld that that was sort of shameful and frowned upon. And so they're not our Vulcans and something is wrong with them. And so here we get that addressed and we get the start of a change. And it looks like, it looks to me like they're planning to do something in series 5 because there is a sort of low-key cliffhanger to this episode. And so perhaps we get to learn more about why exactly the Falcans have been so bad for so long. It's the one thing that irritated me about this. I was like, well, why is Robert Foxworth doing all of this? We don't really probe under the skin and find out what his motive is. And then when the Romulans come in in the last minute, I'm like, oh okay. that's clever And well, it's like you said as well. The last 2 parcel that we've already covered. Terra Prime, and I can't remember the other one now. Demons. Thank you. Demons and Terra Prime, that is all centred around, you know starting the Federation, bringing these worlds together. All of these trilogies in series 4 are leading up to that moment. And I know we don't quite get there in Terra Prime because they will wait. I think series 5 was where that was going to happen. That was really going to play out in series five. But it's all of the jigsaw pieces sort of being put on the table ready for it to pay off. The unfortunate thing is we didn't get the payoff. No, no. But we do have fun along the way, and I do think that this is a version of enterprise that's different from what the previous 2 versions that we have, and he's better than both of them. This is a version of Enterprise, that is infinitely superior to anything that has come before. One, because it's just fucking watchable for a star. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But two, this, no, I said to you, I was messaging you while I was watching it, so there were a lot of sort of DS9 parallels as I was watching it. And how this 3 parter is structured reminded me so much of a DS9 2 or 3 parter in that the 1st episode, it's sort of all focussed on the Vulcans and we go down on the planet and there's a bombing there's a bombing in improbable cause, which leads us to, you know Cardassia and all of that. And then at the end of episode two, it opens out, you think it's just going to be set around the Vulcans. It opens out. No, no, no, they're going to invade Andoria. We're off to Andoria now. This has taken place on our vast galactic scale, which is exactly what happened in, guess what? improbable cause, where at the end of that, they said, right, we're going to go and attack the Dominion. We've got a Romulan Cardassian fleet and we're off there. And I was like, yeah, do you know what? They've looked at something that works in the past and said, we're going to have a bit of that. What's better here? And I think it's probably the only thing that's better here is they've got a bit more money. I think the special effects and how this is realised is a bit more spectacular. Yeah a bit more. In fact, you even get you even get a torture scene in this episode which is what happens in the Dyer's cast when Garrett tortures Odo. So this is almost like Enterprises version of that two-parter. It doesn't quite have the rich characters. I think that's the one thing that's lacking it. But what ends up happening too is that they are prepared to change the status quo? And in our last episode, we complained that Voyager wasn't willing to do that and that that was a real problem because it just felt like everyone had their memory wiped every week and, you know, a new thing happened. They weren't willing to change the status quo with a romance. The simplest of things. Yeah. Yeah, and so here we get a complete change and we get like at the beginning of the 1st episode. So this is part 3 of the Vulcan trilogy. The 1st episode's called The Forge. The 2nd one's Awakening, and then this one's Kishara. And at the beginning of the forge, a character from the 1st episode is killed. Is that right? He hasn't been appearing at Enterprise ever since then. in every season. Yeah, and so he's a big deal. And we get this focus on Soval, who is the sort of Vulcan antagonist and has been in it a lot as well, I gather. And that kind of gives this some character motivation as well because Arch is angry because his friend has died. But actually not angry in a pissy way where we, you know, in the way normally is, where we don't like him. He's just got a genuine reason to sort of go and sort this out, we go down to the forge, which I thought was brilliantly realised. They were out in a desert somewhere. and to Paul's mother is there. So there we've got more character work taking place. She's been established earlier in the season. This is a level that Enterprise has not been working on before this. No. Well, even the marriage, you know, like, I thought the marriage was really interesting. And this, like, we'll get to it, but it's paid off brilliantly in this episode. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's very good. Like, I think it's working. They're remembering what happens each week. This is a thing that happens week to week and it starts right from the beginning of series 4. And frankly, series 3 worked like that as well, but it was kind of grim and miserable. It was very, very... comic book, wasn't it? It's basically we're going to have tons of action and suspense and atmosphere with big comic book villains, which, you know, a lot of... This is very comic book, but it's sort of treated a bit more seriously, isn't it? It's all well... Yeah. We'll get that because I think that this is very cartoony and it doesn't really tell us anything particularly interesting about Vulcan society or faith or logic or anything at all. So it's not about anything in any kind of thoughtful sense, but it's just about being sort of terribly entertaining and I think that's probably enough. What it lacks. Uh, and we talked about this off mic as well is humour. So it's all treated incredibly seriously, and that's not a bad thing. Like we said, it's very entertaining to watch, but I think somewhere around Way of the Warrior. DS9 decided, you know what? This show will work better. If we take it on a grand scale and we have a ton of fun with the characters as well, you know. So you can have an episode like The Changing Face of Evil, where the defiance destroyed, wind stabbing people and, you know, the Cardassians are inciting rebellion, but in the same breath, Cisco's appalled because his peppers have been burned. You know, like, and that's really fun to watch. That mixing it up is really fun to watch. But the villains in this were all very, like the Roberts Fosworth's character was very serious. Whereas when think about Wyun, you know, in TS9, who you... Well, even comparing Weiyun to Shran. You know, Shan is a much less interesting villain than Wayoon, much less K. best thing in this show bar mile, though. Yeah, he is very good. Incredibly watchable. Well, we should probably watch the thing, you know. We've kind of discussed it in some depth now. Yeah. All right. In that case, I will count us in. Five, four, three, two, one. And we're off. Oh, you know, I thought that CGI explosion of the embassy going up was actually rather impressive. Yeah, it is very cartoony, but that's what we get. I had to break it to you. But CGI is in the cartoon phase at the moment, right? Yeah, it is. So, our antagonist at the moment is, um, Robert Foxworth is Velasse, and he is the head of Falcon. That was him. No, I didn't recognise him. He is Layton, Admiral Layton, in DS9? Paradise Lost, yeah. Yeah, which this owes something to as well. I think Paradise lost him this. pretty soon, where a terrorist attack, you know, is blamed on people that we're worried about and you know, we're looking at a security force that's overreaching and stuff. Interestingly, in Paradise Lost, it's the moment where Robert Foxworth orders one federation ship to far on another, which has never happened before. And in this, you have in order that the Falcans do it and you have the same sort of, they're not going to go there, are they? You know? But Robert Foxworth. The human admiral is kind of sexy in a way that these guys... Yeah, the hair is bad. Like the eyebrows aren't doing him any favours. I did think it was a good performance. I think all that was what was really lacking was, like I said earlier, a motivation, a character, really. He's got a sort of plot function. But I couldn't really figure out why he was doing all of this. No. And I think that's the problem there, because we're operating on a cartoon level. There's no real depth to the, to thinking about what it is that made the Vulcans go wrong. And the answer in the last 2 minutes is the Romulans, which is a kind of boring answer. Oh I love that. Yeah, I think it's boring. I love this as well, where they mention the Indy technology and say the Andorans have Zindy technology. The episode that we did, right? Proving ground. the last time we saw Shran. Taking stuff from the past. and using it now. God damn it. And surprised it took you 4 years, but we're finally here. Yeah. Yeah. And stuff from the Zindi arc as well, which is a weird arc in that really nothing comes from it. You know, it's part of the canon, but it doesn't affect anything very much. The Zindy get an occasional throwaway mention in lower decks. Even it was the greatest threat to the earth ever. No one ever mentions it again. once again. that's right. Do you remember the great Zindi threat? Yeah. I got the impression that it was because they were kind of ruining the timeline or something. Doesn't it happen at the end when they go off to Nazi occupied America or something? Yeah, I can't remember now. Oh here we go. I did sing the opening credits. Yeah, yeah. So I watched all 3 episodes and sang each time. It's been a long. Sorry, I can't help it. There's there's one thing that I thought was really good. I think it must be Archer's office and trips trips in there because he's in charge of the ship because Archer's down on Vulcan and there's a series of paintings or prints, like little lithographs, like that are monochrome that depict the sort of clipper ship from the opening credits and then the space shuttle enterprise, which I actually saw with my own eyes when I was a kid. And, you know, then our enterprise, you know, the NXO one and stuff. So it's a little recap of these opening credits on the wall. I have to confess that I did try, well, my other up was podcasting so I tried to slip in the Enterprise episode whilst he was upstairs away, so he wouldn't see me watching Enterprise. Most people, you know, have a sneaky wank or so when they're other halfs away, but no, I'll... I don't want to be caught watching Enterprise. Anyway, it comes down, it comes down to get a bloody cup of tea before he starts just as that music hit. He walks in the room and he went, oh, dear. And just walked off. Damn it. There's a lot of flames flying around this. Yeah, yeah. A lot of flames set number 58. Oh my god. It's tapes at one. And the one, what you didn't see was last week's episode of Lower Decks, which is called Caves, which is entirely set in a cave, and they have flashbacks to other things that happen in caves, and each cave looks identical but lit slightly differently in the different stories because of course. Well, is it is it cartoons of other Star Trek shows or just previous lower decks adventures? previous unseen lower decks adventures that happen in caves. Now, can I say, I do like all of this. Conor Trenier in charge of the Enterprise. I thought he acquitted himself rather well because, one, he's not a complete arsehole, like Captain Archer. So we kind of like him. But actually, I thought they all work together. There's a couple of scenes on the bridge later where you see them all doing their thing, reads on tactical, host, she's doing that bit, and I'm like, yeah, again, where was this in series one and two? Well, even Travis gets to pilot a shuttle and gets a couple of lines, which is I was so happy when you got a line, yeah. Yeah, bless. Why would they waste him? He's so prissy. I know, I know. It's ridiculous. It's just ridiculous. But they're just not interested in him. I mean, Tripp is great and he's probably the best character of the lot. Maybe Tripan to poll, are my 2 fa- Well, the doctor, obviously. He goes without saying is the best character of all of them, but those 2 are pretty great. And I think Savale is really good. Is that his name's involved? The little arc that he goes on in these 3 episodes. Because we really hated him in Broken Bow. He's the reason why Captain Archer's father never got to go up in space because he was the one sort of holding back the space program on Earth. Yeah, he's the one that... sharing the stars of the human beings. Yeah, precisely. And yeah, here he's basically deposed, isn't he? He's humiliated. And then in this episode, he melds, remember? He's melded with a witness who's in a coma, someone who saw the bomb being brought into the embassy. He's just shown to be a man of enormous integrity. He's great, isn't he? actor is like, it's almost like a, thank you so much for sticking with this dreadful show for 4 years. Here's a sequence now where you can emote and they put him in the chair and give him a great scene with Shran. Yeah, I hated that scene, but I will tell you why, I think. I don't think it's a brilliant scene. Oh, no, he was tremendous. I think he is really properly good. I mean, unfortunately, it wasn't a patch on the Odo Garrett one but then that's Rene Aubichonois and Andrew Robinson. Come on. that's right. So, I think that conversation that, um, that the admiral and then so I'll have in that 1st episode is really interesting because it's like we think you of all of those alien groups that we know are the most like us, and you scare us with the way that you emerge from savagery 80 years ago or whatever, and now you're, uh you know, going for the stars and that frightens us. And they have a real proper conversation about that, which I think is really interesting because it's what this trilogy is about. You know, it gives the Vulcans a history. It's kind of what the show's been about. Yeah, yeah. So the show has been about Earth, but it has equally been about Vulcan. And so, and so we get this from the Vulcans, and I think it's really, really interesting. And I think also then Discovery takes that on board, you know, we go to Star Trek the Next Generation, which comes later, but Discovery, which, you know, is broadcast like later and brings the Vulcans and Romeulans together and creates, you know, that ongoing history, which I think is really interesting. I'm an emotional fella. So I tend to find the Vulcans a bit tedious, you know. And I certainly found the depiction of the Vulcans in early enterprise thoroughly tedious to the point where I stopped watching. I stopped watching after that episode 5 or 6 because I really didn't like what they were doing. The fact that they managed to turn that around. This three-parter is the most interesting thing, I think they've done. Well, they do with Falcon. To be honest with you, Nathan, I think this three-parter might be the most interesting thing that Enterprise does, because I've seen enough of it now. So I know that I wasn't engaged with it as much as, oh, it's that special effect shop. I like that. That's trying to do Star Wars there. Yeah, it is. Yeah. Yeah. So what do you think is new to pal? Oh, no what? We'll talk about her later. Well, I don't know if it appears in this. I hope it does. somewhere in this sort of Vulcan building. There's this, um, a set that looks like it's made up for some, from a kids show. It's got this weird purple background and then there's a backdrop of buildings that look so fake. Did you notice it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was terrible. Sorry, you were going to say something. say something... Yeah, here, this is it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's very strange. Yeah. And that, the painting on the walls. I think if we keep going around that, we might see the building. Oh no, no. No, we saw it. It was already in that chart. It was shockingly bad. Yeah. Yeah, it is kind of a bit shit, isn't it? You know that sort of backdrop of New York that you see in friends out of the window. It's a bit like that, you know? Well, no, there'd be photographic blowup that we saw in stigma remember, that was supposed to be that was supposed to be a city. No, do you remember in Terra Prime where Reed went off to the section 31? Oh, yeah, yeah. And they tried to convince they were outside in like New York or something. Yeah, horrible. Oh, okay, sorry, back to the episode. So, so part of the thing here, when we hear, you know, that that Tapol doesn't believe in Cartres and that mind melding is illegal we know that's wrong because we know that they're important features of what the Vulcans come to be, you know, in 100 years time or just over 100 years' time when Star Trek is sad. And, But then we have to power in this episode, and she's originally the person that Velass tries to pin the embassy bombing on, remember, and she's a member of this Cyranite faction that believes that they have the true teachings of Surak. Turns out they're all pacifists. Yeah. I don't believe it. I think it's weird not giving her the accent, like not making her do the accent. I didn't really know this, if I'm honest. We've seen Tapau when she was played by Celia Lovsky at Spock's wedding. Uh, The wonderful Vulcan woman who marries them. Remember? Oh, of course, you know, I didn't. I didn't even make the connection. I didn't even make the question. Yeah. Yeah. And she was incredible. couldn't take my eyes off her. Yeah, absolutely magnificent. And then this little sort of young American woman who has no accent, no particular presence and stuff. That is strange. Yeah. So I kind of think that that that isn't satisfying anyone because the people who know who to power is a kind of going, oh, come on. Celia was so great in this role, why is this woman not even trying to do that cool accent? But you know what? The fact that they are plummeting TOS, finally, on this show. Yeah, I will give them props for that because it's the thing that they've really avoided doing in the 1st 3 years. And and they do something with her that is good. Like they make her a major player in the reform of Vulcan that takes place at this point, you know? You know, I think something interesting that's happened here is the writers of the Forge, which is the 1st part of this 3 parter. I cannot remember their names now. I think it's a husband and wife team. Phyllis Strong and Mike Sussman, I want to say. Those names seem familiar. Yeah, they've written a ton of Star Trek books before they wrote for this show. So they're steeped in Star Trek Law. Yeah, yeah. And Manicoto deliberately brought them in because they knew their stuff and they knew and I feel like you can feel their hand in all of this in that we can take the show in the direction it needs to go for it to get to TOS, but we can do some interesting things along the way. Well, yeah, that's it. It wouldn't have been anything in itself. It would have just been fan wank and it would have irritated the hell out of us. If it hadn't been in the service of telling a story on a big scale and suddenly making it interesting and making Star Trek feel like it was taking place in a world, I think. Like early enterprise, it's just trying to tell all the pioneers in space story, isn't it? And guess what? That turned out to be really fucking boring. Whereas, yeah, this is playing in the tool, you know, the toy box of Star Trek TOS and things that come later. And all of a sudden we're interested. It was a good move. Manikoto made that was basically his mission statement, wasn't it? for, was to start making this Star Trek. Let's put the trek back in enterprise. So I have to say that I don't think that this woman does a bad job. Do you know what I mean, but she's not to pal. I don't think there was a weak performance in this. No. No, it's just a contrast there, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just don't quite know where they're doing it. Early wrong. earlier on when he was going through all the caves. I was waiting for the car because you're following him. They're doing a tracking shot through the caves and I was like hang on a minute. This set can't be this big. They don't have as much cave as that. At some point, there's going to be a cut. And actually, it was longer than I thought it was going to be, but he went around at least 3 corners before they cut. And then he went back to the start again, obviously. I'm like, hang on, haven't we been here before? So, what's funny about this too, is that it is a giant geopolitical thing and it is about kind of changing the nature of the Vulcans and like a big kind of awakening, I guess, another awakening in the Vulcans, like the one that they had 1800 years ago. Um, But they just make it a very simple. We need to get this artefact to the city, and that's the one plot and then the other plot is we need to stop the Vulcans invading Andoria, and that's another plot, and they're both fun and interesting and full of incident and stuff. I'm really... they added the 2nd plot, though. It needed to go up a step and boy, it does as well. Here they're talking about Panas syndrome from stigma. Again, reaching into the past and finding something that perhaps didn't work and giving it a bit of a little bit of substance. But, I mean, even that, the Panas syndrome thing was another thing that convinced us that there's something very wrong with these Vulcans, and Manikoto is aware that that's how we feel, and it is intentional. It has to be intentional. You know, they know as well as we do that this is an odd way for Vulcans to behave. I think the biggest example of him trying to sort of reform the Vulcans in our eyes is Savile. It's just taken that character. I'm making him likeable and somebody we want to be around. And it really works as well. So we're about to have the torture scene. Why don't you like this scene? Because it doesn't manage to do what it needs to do, and I think it's unpleasant just for the sake of being kind of gritty. So, you could point at that augments arc. you know, that sequence where the fellow's inside the thing and he's bleeding from every orifice, for the exactly the same thing. But what you're doing is creating a kind of moral dilemma. Do you know what I mean? Because you've got some kids who are, you know, with that and some who aren't and you've got these kids behaving in this sort of terrible, horrible responsible way. And so there are character things about it here, that what this doesn't lead to anything. And what it needs to do is it needs to have a moment where the 2 of these people bond and he decides that and Strand decides that torturing servile is wrong and he doesn't want to do it. And we approach it by talking about them working together on the peace treaty, but all that happens is he kind of stops torturing him for no reason, and then he comes in and says, oh, well, he convinced me he was telling the truth because he didn't just make some shit up, and that's enough for me. And so we never see anything, like it doesn't do the character thing it needs to do. It's not even like it's telling us anything about Shran because we know that he'll go to any lengths to, you know, to get what he wants. Pointing you at the Dyer's cast again. That torture sequence between Odo and Garak. Garak doesn't want to be doing it, so that makes it interesting. Um, it's fucking intense because, oh, John Noir goes for it. But at the end of the sequence, he gives him something. He says, I want to go home and that's what I've not told anybody before. So suddenly there is a bond between the 2 of them. So the scene had a point. And then after that, we start having scenes between Garak and Odo. Where they're, no, not friends, but, you know, they, they, they hang together, you know, because they're both lonely and they both don't want to be there. It has a it has a point. kind of want to go home. Yeah. Yeah, whereas this doesn't. I think it doesn't do what it needs to do and had it been better written, it would have been better. I think. On a purely performance level, though. I was impressed. Yeah, 0 yeah. Yeah. Oh, no, no, you're clearly just kind of, you know, um, giving Gary Graham something to do, some acting to do and getting him to do things that he hasn't done as that character before and fair enough. But the scene itself doesn't work because I don't see it going anywhere. semi- eyebrow raising you've been doing for 3 seasons or I love that. Take a look at this scratch. Come on. You're going to get to a moat for at least 5 minutes. My God, a line for Travis there. Yeah, yep, there he is. Look, he's talking and everything. I think these CGI ships have come on as well. I think they look, they don't, obviously, the models always going to look more robust than CGI, but actually they look quite detailed. Yeah, they certainly look better than, you know, like they're a step ahead of what kind of Babylon 5 does and I've never heard of Babylon 5, but. step ahead of that. Well, you know, like I think it was worth a try. Like I'm happy they tried. I do like the sort of fountain pen shape of those Andorian shits but you know, they're not a patch on some of the ones we see in the 90s. Gemadar ships and things like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I always feel like they, they, they do try and be sort of fun and quirky with their spaceship signs. I think there's an attempt to make them blockier, and look more primitive in the 22nd century, maybe, but... Which is a fair approach. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, they need to sell it. This is the past. I was at a convention last week, you know, and a fella had a whole table just full of Star Trek spaceship models on it. Oh, wow. And just seeing them all sort of laid out in front of me. I was like, there's some real diversity here, you know, like across from Kurtzman right away back to TOS. It's wonderful, isn't it? It's a great sort of playground and they do a really good job, I think. They always do. It means that we can have, you know, a Star Trek visual dictionary just like they do for Star Wars. That's right. Did I tell you I bought that? Oh, did you? It shows you the spaceship designs. And then like all the map paintings that they do in the 90s of the planets and things like that. That's wonderful. It's my new Bible. This is super interesting, isn't it, this scene? I mean, talk about a relationship that's come on. I really didn't like this pair in series one. No. And now there is just a sort of very natural respect between the 2 of them. Yeah. But I think that this gets closest to raising the sort of questions that I want this episode to talk about because like she doesn't believe it. There are groups of people all around the world who claim to follow Surak's teachings, Surak was around about 2000 years ago and now there are different people who believe that he said different things. And this is all solved by the fact that we get his actual teachings at the end, and we know that they're definitely his teachings. But there's that's a kind of fantasy world version of how religion works. And Deep Space 9, I think, is the, like, it also goes for a sort of ludicrous space opera version of religion by the end, but on the way, it actually talks about religion and faith and things in a much more interesting way. Well, it would be very easy to condemn it in the way that Gene Roddenbury did, but unfortunately, the 1st officer, Maj Shakira, is religious and we cannot rip her every week. So it's treated very maturely at times. I really love the line in that last scene where she goes, well, did my mother think I was just going to come here and join this radical faction. And Archer says, well, you joined up with our ship. There are many people that consider that a radical faction. having a bit of fun with each other. Yeah. But I mean, I thought that that was a proper discussion about something and it comes at a time where archery is inhabited by Surax Cartra, isn't he? And so he is starting to feel sympathy for Vulcans and Syrinites and all of that. It's very hard to take this torture scene seriously with Shran's antennae wiggling about the place. So it's not the antenna that distracts me because I think they're great. What distracts me is that some, for some reason, he's got really powdery makeup on and because his face is very animated, because he's got laughter lines and stuff like that. And because we're in HD now, and because we're in HD, it's pretty unforgiving. So Wayoon always looked okay, but I think Strand's makeup looks really shit. I don't think, I don't think, um... Way you not as much powder on, you know. It wasn't... It always feels like it's falling off round. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I just keep expecting it must have been a big mess. Gum falls off. Yeah that's right. Jeffrey, can you put in this set, please? Look who this is. So we've got this new Vulcan guard guy come in. It's Ninja Vulcan. And he's called Taylock, and he is played by Todd Stashwick, who played Captain Liam Shaw in series 3 of Chicago. Do you realise what they're doing here? They're creating the bridge. You've got Robert Foxworth from, and you've got this fella from Picard. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I mean, he's great. I mean, he is such a superb character. The character in Picard was. Yeah, that's what I mean. This character is magnificent. I barely remembered. But God, man, sure, in Picard. The sequence is in the bar. They were the best thing. the way he talked. You know the space people problem that we always have on Star Trek. And there's that line. He says, you know, we're having a bit of a weird week or something. It's just so... when he was completely on side, he managed to have edge. Sure. Yeah, he was really obnoxious. He was awesome. So good. Here he is being beaten up by him. he might have been the best original character to come out of. Picard, yeah. Yeah, I love Raffi. Like, I will always love Raffi. She's awesome. Oh, no, I liked Agnes from Sirius one, actually. Yeah. And I quite like the Romulan guy. Yeah, whatever happened to her? In that ball truce that we forgot all about. And then this ridiculous thing? Look at them falling down. I'll tell a lie. I did laugh at this bit where she threw him down that hole. Yeah, yeah. He has no idea it's coming either. So that's what happened. Joe, I did think as well. Did you not think when they finally open up the Keshara that that hologrammatic effect was actually pretty good? It reminded me a little bit of Kersman Trek. Yeah, yeah, I thought it was really properly good. The thing is, Kurtzman Trek is now we just have every console up in the air. Everything's quite a hologram. But this one is Vulcan writing that we have seen as well. So, um, uh, and it's in the air. And so it sells the idea that these are documents and it makes it credible that they're real as well, don't you think? Like that makes us seem that they're properly real. If they've just been sort of pieces of paper with sort of writing on them, that would have been harder. Do you remember? The text of the costumogen. When blood was built on it. Yeah, it was a little bit like a magic book, wasn't it? That will change. What are you talking about? It was a magic book. That's what I know. But I mean, the Keshara was as well. Yeah, because, yeah, yeah. I have to say that Todd Stashwick has improved with age. He is quite handsome as Captain Shaw, but whereas Robert Foxworth unfortunately, has not. No. Well, they put him in that terrible win. It's a problem. Yeah, yeah. They've made him have a shave. So at the end of the episode, spoilers, he comes back and we discover he's really a Romulan and he's been playing, um, he's been playing Velasse. Okay, so this guy, um, whose name is Taylor, uh, to rhyme with Blaylock. Um, So he comes back and he's a Romulan and he's been playing. And what memory alpha says, which is absolutely hilarious is they weren't going to shoot the scene because they didn't have money for an additional speaking part. And so they said, uh, uh, you know, bugger it will, we'll just get Todd to do this line. And so that's how they do it. And so originally I had thought that it was leading into something he had planned for series 5, that maybe series 5 would see RC, the Romulan impact, you know, how they'd been, and why they'd been influencing Vulcan, and then, and also, you know, like, um, how Vulcan was changing. Now they had the proper teachings. Any other season of Enterprise, if they'd have put that scene at the end of this with the Romulans, I would have been like, okay that's just them telling us they were behind all of this. That's fine. Because we're in series 4 now and they are... It's dealing with concerts going to go somewhere. It felt like it was planting a seed. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Do you know what? The more I watch four, the more the sadder I am that we didn't get five. And I don't think I'll say that, man, surprised, if I'm honest. No, no, no. I think I think it is a loss because this is fun. This is like movie of the week fun. Do you remember the way that DS 9 used to suggest scale? So you'd have, like, one person talking for a race, you'd have maybe one set for each planet and you'd go from planet to planet to planet. So they have 4 sets, but we're going to 4 planets, so that feels big. It feels vast. I really feel they've come on with suggesting we've got in this 3 party. You get desert location work. you were in the case, you're in the Vulcan Embassy, you're up on Enterprise, you've got space effects going on, you're in the Andorra and shit, like there's enough. There is enough visually to suggest this is taking place on a big scale. I really like that. Yeah, that's right. You said to me. Oh, this feels like a movie. And I was like, yeah, this really does. Okay. It's not, you know, doing it, pulling off the special effects of a movie. But it feels it feels beak like a movie. Yeah. Well, the way that the Star Trek movies felt big and the way that the Star Trek movies had the they were able to change the status quo, things were able to happen to the characters that changed the way the characters interacted and stuff. It's definitely there in the, like, we just talked about the writing quite a bit, but it's definitely there in the writing as well. They're just not thinking small. Yeah. I feel like the watchword for series 4 is big. Let's open this out a bit. Yeah, you know? Yeah, let's create a playground to play in. Not just this tiny ship going through space. And I mean, and still just lots of scenes of people standing in standing sets talking. Do you know what I mean? Like, it's still Star Trek and it's still TV, Star Trek, it's still 90s trek, even though it's taking place a bit later than that. Yeah, this, this, you know, like, oh, unless a man would have told me the truth, but we didn't see that happen. He just sort of stopped torturing him for some reason. It's surprising you know better to see it. The one scene with Dr. Flox is probably the weakest scene in the episode. That's quite rare, French surprise as well. Yeah. He's the character that sort of falls away a bit in series four but I'm wondering if that's got something to do with Billingsley's very open criticism of season three at the time as well. Right. Yeah, he's Captain Shaw again. What is it? It's the salad. You know, the Vulcan salat? He starts, he starts shaking his feet long before, long before the they're drawing the, the, um, the lightning bolts on screen. For those that can't see what we're seeing. We just saw some spectacular struck down by lightning acting. Yeah, yeah. It's pretty false. Looking like you're having a fit. But the great thing is too, remember when we were watching a mark time and we were saying, the designers this week, the stuff that they design is going to go on and continue being done and done again. you know, for decades in this stupid show. And these things that they're fighting with are exactly the things that Kirk and Spock are fighting with in a muck time in the, you know, that battle thing. Yeah, that might be why they look a bit shit. Yeah, let's have them. No, let's have them. They're more designed, I think. Oh, this so reminds me of the free par at the beginning of series 2, if there's not. You know, the siege. Oh, yeah. Because that ends with Kira going into the Council of Ministers. Just like Tapal has now to expose Robert Foxworth's character. But at the same time, there's tons of action going on as well around them. So, no, the Vulcans have the death penalty. Yeah. That shot there, you know, of the ship's the large ship coming straight over the camera like that. That reminded me a bit of Battle Star Galactica, you know. It's a good looking ship, I think. Let's not forget as well. This is the finale of a three-parter. Trek does not have a great Trek record of finishing its multi episodes well. And I don't think this is a disappointment. No, because I think the thing that this season does really well is giving each episode a definite thing, right? So the 1st episode is the quest to find who blew up the embassy. The 2nd episode is us learning about the Cyranites and, you know their opponents. And then this episode is this. See, this scene doesn't quite work, but they're really trying. So they've got one angle, we've got Archer in our planetary studio backdrop. Yeah, yeah. And then from the upper angle, we've got some, what do you call it? Big CG city. Yeah. They're sort of matted in in a very unconvincing way. Those ships are great. Look at those ships. aren't they? They look like mini DS loins. Well, those Vulcan ships with the circles in them, like that's a design thing. I don't know if it's from the original series, but it's certainly reoccursing Kurtzman Trek, where we see... But it feels big, doesn't it? fleets and Dorian ships. Enterprise is going to go between them and Tripp says, no, no, I'm going to try and buy some time because they're not going to fire on us. Then they start firing on them. It's actually fucking exciting for once. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's really good. But it feels like, like, one false move and this show might be damaged irreparably, you know, and that's exciting. Well, even just having the Vulcans fire on Starfleet is pretty amazing, I think. you think? Yeah. Oh yeah, yeah, for sure. For sure. This would not have happened under Bragger and Berman. Yeah, I mean, there's, yeah. I just don't think they were thinking along these lines, French fries. I kind of wish many character had come along in 3 in our 2 years but never mind. Yeah. Well, I mean, in three, they do change the status quo though, don't they? Like they do change the status quo. They have an ongoing plot and they do a reasonable job of serialising. Like, I think they do a good job of serialising. I think what Manicoso realises, though, is we can't, we just do not have the show to do a season-long arc like that because it looks very odd then when we're off doing a Western and things like this when there's this weapon. So because let's do a series of mini arcs throughout the season that leads up to the conclusion. Yeah, but they're not just mini arts. Yeah, but there are elements from previous things that still go on. Like we still feel like that this is happening over a period of time that means something. But 3 wasn't doing that. Three rejected one and two. I went off into the Zindi expanse or whatever it was called. and just did their own thing. This feels like it's pulling together the show. and pushing it into the future. Yeah. God bless Malikoto. Did he do any more Star Trek after this? After Enterprise. I can't remember. Of course, we lost him like earlier this year, I think. I think he passed away fairly recently. But I'm sure that there are enough people around telling him how much they loved what he managed to do to Enterprise because it really is something, and I always sort of thought, I actually was a little bit suspicious of it because I've never really liked Enterprise, and then everyone comes along and says, oh, there's a whole three-part arc where we discover why the Klingons have smooth foreheads in original track, and I think, oh, great. That sounds really awesome. So, so I'd always been a bit suspicious of it. But actually watching it. I think it's really enjoyable. He produced the 1st 4 seasons of 24 after this. Oh, when it was interesting. absolute high. So let's let's have a moment for Manicoto. and clearly could put together a TV show. Sure. Yep. And it just it just goes to show this show desperately needed a fresh creative voice. Yeah. You know, that was the problem all along. Burman says that Enterprise didn't work because it was suffering from, what, Trek fatigue? No, no, no. We were suffering from Berman, fatigue. Berman, Virginia, yeah. Koto kind of proves that with this last season. That woman is an anarchist captain. I love that line. That was so interesting. That was so good. Oh that terrible design behind them. What is that? Yeah, I don't know. It used to be. It looks so cheap, this set, compared to everything. Yeah, doesn't it? It's not exactly where you want the denouement, is it? No, nobody's bit crap. Oh, here we go, though. We're going to have the lasers going up in the air now from the Kishara. Yeah, I think this is probably good. I kept expecting him to shoot it or something, like to pull out a gun and kind of shoot. Oh my god, I just saw that backdrop of the buildings. Did you think? Yeah, yeah, yeah. really not good. But it looks like a science fiction novel cover. you know, A Hugo Award-winning science fiction novel. Professor Bernie Somerville, New Adventure. Like you say it. Like we are forging our way to the Vulcans that we know and love in TRS. This all means something. This means something. Like, it means something to Star Trek fans. But let's be honest, we're the only people still watching it. We're the only people left. Yeah that's right. I think they know that though. you know, play to your audience. Yeah. Well, do you remember when, so we had that character, Arev or something? I can't remember his name, the guy who was Cyrin, the guy who led the Cyrinites, who meets them in the cave and then dies, and then he puts his hand on, um, on Archer's head and then says, remember in Vulcan. And so it's that moment from Roth of Khan, isn't it? Like that, that very moment. In Robert Foxworth's turn as Admiral Layton, right? He played that part for out, mostly very, not flat, but kind of considered, yeah. which means in the in the climax where Cisco bestsim, he finally loses his rag and he goes, it's not, oh, wow then he bangs his fist down and it really makes you sit up because he's been so sort of. Whereas this fella has been sort of angry now for the last 3 scenes. It doesn't have the same impact at all. No, because he's like ordering massacres and stuff like that on religious minorities and things like he's really clearly not destroy the entire city. No, I'd usually mind that sort of thing, but it's a bit weird coming from a Vulcan. Yeah, yeah. I say trip looks very dramatic there with the dry ice pumping away behind him. Well, it's really interesting. That look, though, is Tripp going, why are they not firing on us? How come that stopped? And I did like the fate. Well, we don't have to have the captain's log, although we do. We have a phase straight to Vulcan, so we're there, you know? Yeah, yeah. You and I have never, ever spoken with this much energy about Enterprise in this entire run of untitled Star Trek project. Yeah, it's pretty funny, isn't it? This has been, well, apart from a night in Sick Bay, which was pretty great. This has been, um, poor old once his face. Oh, I did like this, though. Yeah, I did too. He goes, look, I was only I was only doing it for your mother. Now she's gone. And she's dead. In fact, we talked all over that soon. I've got to say that seemed genuinely did sneak up on me and make me not choke up. Well, we didn't see her die. That happened last week in last week's episode, like in the... Awakening. Oh, okay, yeah, yeah. And I thought that that was really good. And Jolene got to do some acting and it was tremendous. Because I was both established. Yeah, and home and like you said, a few others after that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, but it was just a very tender scene, wasn't it? Where she says, I've always been so proud of you. But all of the, even before that, their scenes together were super interesting and and I think they really worked. But Cos comes in. The trouble with Kos is that he's just got the worst fucking Nile on Vulcan wig and it's all you can look at in his scenes. It's so bad It's just unusual because I very rarely feel anything for enterprise, bar a crushing sense of disappointment. So to actually be moved by a scene. Yeah. What's happening? Are you sure I'm watching Enterprise? I was getting elderly Nemoy vibes from the priest who ends up with Surax cartridges then. We just see him from that. I was getting Scott Pacular going, oh, come on, I've got to try and get this vocal salute right. Can you do that? I can just do that. there you go. Yeah, it's super easy. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, what's wrong with people? Oh, no, please go. Look at that backdrop in the back. Just one more look. It's actually quite deco, isn't it, the city? I think it looks actually quite good in that backdrop. It is clearly a paper. had any sense of 3D depth to it. So you only get this tag scene, which we very nearly didn't have like I said, because it was kind of like, um, uh, we we didn't have anyone who was going to deliver these lines. Did I tell you that I was spoiled that REv was was Cyrin? I mean, he clearly obviously was in episode two. But, uh, the Amazon Prime's subtitles, which subtitle it, I just gave his name. Oh, that's serious. Boy, lose Amazon Prime subtitles. Yeah. So the reunification of our people is only a matter of time. And I think that is clearly like, let's go somewhere with this, but it just never ends up happening. Well, it's a shame. That sort of unification between the Vulcans and the Romulas. We ever cover that again? It never comes up as far as I know. A bloody nerve of Star Trek discovery doing unification number three. Unification part three. This is enterprise. It is tying this bloody show into the fabric of Star Trek. It's so refreshing. And giving Star Trek history, like giving the Vulcans a history making this a story about how the Vulcans go from being the sort of sort of slightly terrible people to being the Falcons that we know. So they're subject to the forces of history as much as we are and they grow the way that we do. What it's doing this season as well, is like before this, yeah like the Zindi Arc, as we said, is basically something that everyone forgot about. A lot of fun, but everyone sort of forgot about it. The 1st 2 years, who gives a fuck about those people going out into space, we don't care about those people, that's not going to affect Star Trek in the future. This whole season, the formation of the federation, the Vulcans here. This is all stuff that is now in, you cannot tell the Star Trek story without these details in it. So this season is finally making enterprise count. Parata Manico, sorry. Yeah, but in a way that doesn't matter quite so much as the fact... It does, but I think that it's the willingness to change the status quo and to tell a continuous story and to let things have room to breathe and to give everything a bit of a scale. In, you know, the climax to season two, you know, when they tear the strip for America and murder all those people and all of that. And then we go off into the Zindie space and all that. And I was like, yeah, none of this is going to impact at all. This isn't changing the status quo because we're never going to do with any of this stuff, but we're now dealing with big, you know galactic superpowers that we actually deal with in TOS and in 90s trek. Yeah. Yeah. Do you know what it reminds me of? This is super weird, but it actually reminds me of the most recent series of the Orville, which I still haven't seen that. Yeah. It does the same thing. So it is not super long, but it has episodes that are quite long like that are sometimes like 2 hours and stuff. Like each individual episode is quite long. They're like little miniature movies and they change the status quo. We see that things change and every individual story has that sort of scale. And I think that that's what makes this good. Like, it's extra good for us because it's plugging into Star Trek history and, you know, becoming a sort of just so story about how we got to where we are when the whole show starts in 1966. But I think that in itself, it's a more entertaining, more ambitious show that's doing more fun things than it ever has been before. And that's really why I enjoyed it, I think. The only thing they've got left to do now. Yeah, it's to start laughing at themselves a bit more. And actually, like I said to you, they get there in that two parter in the alternative universe, at the end of series four, they just suddenly, you can feel the actors visibly relaxing as they're having incredible fun. And it's like, well, that's it. I'm sorry, they're having far too much fun on Enterprise. Cancel the show. All the plug. All right, it's the end of the episode, and so it's time for us to pick what we're going to be watching next. Keshara was my excellent choice. Yeah, finally you've chosen an excellent choice. So it's your turn to wreck it all for us. I was on a great run. Now I'm going to choose a stinker. Yeah, maybe we're swapping. I'm going to do something I haven't done for a little while. Okay. That's put in all the shows. Now, I realise this does tip the randomiser in 90s Treks favour and we have done a fair bit of 90s lately, but unfortunately there's a lot of it. We've got to get through it. Really years. Here we go. Ooh. Your random Star Voyager episode is season six, episode 22. News. Oh, I really like news. I think we should do it. Yeah, I'm wondering if we should as well. Last time we did season six. It was those dreadful ball kids coming on the ship. Do you remember? We didn't say anything nice. I think the thing that interests me the most about this is that the drama that they're doing is based on ancient Greek drama. I think it is. Yeah. And so that form of storytelling and that very stylised thing because the Greeks, as far as Europe's concerned, the Greeks invent drama, and it starts off very stylised, so we're in a drama that's now being told in this other, in this other mode by sort of long speeches from just a small number of actors and a chorus and stuff like that. And I just remember that being really properly interesting. She starts telling them about the Voyager exploits and they start putting those on as plays. I seem to remember in the great style with a court. It's really wonderful. And our darling Tom Solinski was not impressed by this at all. So here's an opportunity for us to tell us why he was wrong. Okay, that'll be fun too. Excellent. You've been listening to untitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford and Nathan Bottomley. We're online at Untitled Star Trek Project.com, where you can find subscription links and links to our social media accounts. Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceran, and the theme was composed by Cameron Lam. This episode was recorded on the 24th of October 2023 and released on the 27th of October. We'll see you next time for Star Trek Voyager news. Oh, that's a good choice. That's a good choice. Yeah, that'll be good. Yeah, that turned out. I'll basically shut up during that episode because I think you're going to have a lot to say. Yeah, I remember being hugely impressed by that just because it was... Do you know what surrounds it? All in a deck 12 fury, all this bullshit they were doing. In the middle, there's this very smart, very interesting script. Yeah, and it's a thing about Voyager. like it's a show about Voyager, isn't it? It would be nice to do another B'lana episode because the only one we've done so far is the 1st one we did lineage. Did you notice that Roxanne directed one of those episodes? You didn't have to tell me that somebody that got their education from 90s Trek directed that middle episode. Arcatel. I saw her name, but as I was watching it, I was going, yep, that's the same filters as 90s Trek. caves are being shot in the same sort of way. And then in the last episode, it was like a current director again you know the pace was moving. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, I'm glad she was still working on it. That's pretty good She's done tons of work since... I don't think she, but mostly in like genre television. I know she did some smallville. Oh, okay. I think she's been busy. But I really like B'lana and I really like Roxanne Dawson performance. So it would be nice. Me too. And season 6 with Barge of the Dead and News. It's the season where they remembered how good that character is and gave a great stuff to do. So it'd be nice to talk about that as well. Like, when we, like, I think we like the actors in DS9 better than any other 90s trek. Like just when you talk about the people named in the opening credits. you know what I mean? Like, you've got some pretty incredible people, but then you think about Voyager and it, you know, like, it's got Kate, Ethan Phillips, it's got, it's got, um, Tim Russ, you know, it's got Roxanne. like those are not bad. It's got Jerry, isn't it? They're just not given the opportunities. That's the annoying. Whereas on DSI, they can't mostly... So did we get the best out of them? Probably not Voyager. No. Yeah, well, like, yeah. And like even that the Tuvog thing last week where it was all about, you know, how he had no emotions and couldn't feel emotions. And like even on enterprise, they know that that's not what Vulcans are. You know, that they have to work hard to keep their emotions in check. And that's so much more interesting. they look for moments. They're just, like, they're not given moments, so they like, it's a bit like Colin Baker in the, in the 80s. He's trying desperately to find moments of humour and things aren't they? I tried the line the other day, you know. I was taking a bath and I tried the, but I did it in Kate Mulgary's voice. You know, when she's in the bath and she goes, how did you put your leg up? She goes, Chakotay, are you there? So I went, Mark, are you there? Fly out. A very odd look. I was like, oh. And yes, you can put that in the end if you like. Don't you worry, it's in the end. Yeah, she's listening to me at Star Trek Enterprise, Crossing Jordan, Cold Case, Heroes, the Mentalists, Agents of Shield, Mercy Street, the Juice, Foundation. She hasn't stopped. Foundation. Yeah. Both Robert and Brendan really like Foundation. And so it's Apple TV. It looks amazing, apparently. Like it's amazingly weird looking sci-fi. I'm just put off that. Oh my god, she did lost the OC. Wow. The mentalist, I quite like that. Prime suspect. Prime suspect. The British show. English one, surely. No. Tap on the link. Oh, the American version. Yeah, okay. Under the dome. I remember people talking about that the time. Three episodes of Ancient of Shield. Oh, Revolution. was terrible. She literally, look, she literally has not stops. Like, oh, good for her. That's happy. I like that. She should come back to Star Trek? No, she should. They've still got Jonathan. You should do more acting though. She's a good actress, Roxanne Dawson. Yeah. I always remember the bit where in... The scene, the episode in series 3. Well, I'd almost written off series 3 at that and then she got that episode where she was having those holocaust flashbacks. There's been like violations, but it was like a running storyline that was taking place in a red, but she's playing the character. Who. was against it. And at the end, she has to go into, she has to publicly declare that their people are gonna wipe out a race of people. And as written, it's okay, as acted, it's so powerful the way she the way she does it. Is it like, in a light where she's... A bit like that... But it's a bit like violations as well because it's this group of innocent appearing aliens on the ship. Right. And then you've got to try and figure out who's given the visions you know, as a vision of the episode. So it's like a procedural as well going on. Right, right. It's a good episode. What's that one called? Remember. Oh, okay. Remember. Yeah. It's like the, um, What they're talking about is a bit obvious, and then the scripting is all a bit obvious. There's a sequence where somebody is, you know, tortured and burned and all that. But her performance is really sensitive throughout the whole thing. Yeah, she's good. Yeah, she's good. And then they give them bullshit like drive, you know, the space waves episode and things like that. They pair up with the worst, Robert. And that's the other person I didn't mention. giving a list of people who are great on Voyager and Robert Picardo, who is also just absolutely incredible. Yeah. Yeah, so maybe, but then you have got Garrett Wang and Robert Beltran. Although I think there's a Garrett Wang and Robert Beltran in DS9. No. Or a worst Robert. Oh, Robert, don't commit. Yeah, so there's three, isn't it? There's 3 and I think Ethan Philip has his off days. Well, he's got a bit of a thankless character, which I think he does a pretty good job. Remember the world where he gets his own daytime television show. I can't imagine anything worse. That's early on. That is the episode where Michael Jonas is exposed as contacted Cisco. Oh, see, there you go. Because nearly he has to uncover it via his chat show. Yeah. See, that's awesome. should do that. Oh my god, I love series 2 of Voyager. Yeah, so much fun. So much fun.