Second Skin

Hey, Joe. Hi. So, we're back on Deep Space 9 after doing the siege of AR 558 last time. I loved it, didn't you? Loved it. Not really. I decided that we would do another Deep Space and Iron episode is a kind of palate cleanser. and it turns out the 2nd scheme. did this once before. Do you remember? What did you do? What was it, TNG? Yeah, we had we had a really terrible TNG. Which we were both excited about and we hated it. And then you were like, oh, can we do another one? Just to remind myself why I like this show. Good. And this is great. I mean, this is so deep space 90 and so good. Just terrifically good. I enjoyed the hell out of this one. Do you know what I loved about this watching it was the fact that it pretty much addressed every criticism that you usually have of 90s trek. You know, it's set in one room with just a few actors, you know there's very little visual interest. Well, it did play to a lot of DS9's strengths as well. The sort of labyrinthine plotting, the fantastic acting. When they get the dialogue right, like they do here. It's really, really sayable dialogue, especially stuff that Garak's saying more on that later. But this is a really interesting time for DS9 because we've had series one and that was, you know, mixed response. We went in, this is going to be the next best thing, you know, TNG was such a success. DS9 is going to be amazing and then everyone watched series one and went, well, what the hell was that? It's like some gold in there, but a lot of rough, you know? And then series 2, I think, up the ante quite a lot and they did some experiments. They did the 1st three-parter. They did the Marquis 2 parter, so they started doing this sort of cross series plotting and the run from the end of, I think from sort of crossover to the end of series 2 is a really strong run where people started saying, okay, this thing started to gather momentum. Then they bring in the Dominion at the end of series 2. And then they go all out with that at the beginning of series 3 with the search. They bring in the Defiant. And it's like, okay, so this is something that's not being wrapped up, you know, from the end of the last season to the beginning of this, we're actually going to keep going. And even in like House of Corp, which we watched before, you've got a subplot where Keiko's saying things like, well, it seems like everyone's got the dominion on their mind these days. And boy, do we? But we are still doing a lot of standalone episodes in with the occasional arc episode where no, that sort of turns the corner sort of from series 4 onwards. And so we're in hit and miss territory with the standalones now. So you'll either have a complete turkey, like fascinations where Luxana Troy comes on board the station and brings the lung virus with her. Or the one where, oh, actually, I quite like this one, but some people consider it a Turkey, where Kira becomes a massive crystal. Do you remember that one? Stone, yes. I love that one Or you have stuff that's absolutely amazingly good like past tense, like through the looking glass, which is a great alternative universe episode, and things like the adversary, which does the thing on the defiant. Yeah, and I think 2nd skin is a particularly good early. Yeah. Yeah. So when it came up last time, there were the obvious comparisons with face of the enemy, which also has like a leading female character waking up looking like she's from some other species. And I really like face of the enemy because it gives Marina something to do and she's really fabulous in it. She's so much more cool than she is. Marina and Carolyn Seymour in a room together. in high camp is amazing. Yeah. So, but that, you know, like that isn't as interesting as this. I think that this is vastly more interesting, and I think it's partly because Kira has a backstory, you know, there's stuff to say about her, and it kind of plays on the backstory, and it does the thing that other Deep Space 9s were doing right from series one, which is putting on our visitor in a room with someone else who is a good actor and just explore that central relationship, and we in duet. We have it in progress. And we have it here with Iliana's father. And it's really good. It works really well. Both of them are really kind of likeable and interesting. And the twist in the episode, I didn't see coming. I've seen this before, but I didn't remember it. and it's a proper twist. good. It's really good, isn't it? Well, I like the fact that you are being hoodwinked from the pre title sequence, you know, like they're making you look at Kira all the way through because that's the big sort of concept here is Kira is a Cardassian. So all the way through, you're like, well, they're trying to get information out of a, the wall is just a really good actor, you know, and he's playing on earth sympathies. And then when that twist drops at the end, you're like, oh, fuck it. I've been looking in the wrong direction the whole time. But it's not just a misdirection because it's Deep Space 9 and we assume that our regulars are the focus of whatever's going on. And so it's absolutely reasonable to assume that they're just mind fucking with Kira in order to get information out of her, although the information they try and get out of her is dumb. I mean, they could just sort of wander on the station. Oh, man, take a look around. The Federation runs the station. I wasn't even allowed into Ops. How many how many troops did they have? 20, 30,000. Don't tell them I told you. okay? I love them. But they had someone on the station already who must have been able to know that. So that, like, that doesn't convince. But the twist that it's actually a mindfark of Gamore is so clever and so unexpected. I just thought it worked really well. Well, and by that point as well, we've gotten to know him and we like him. And they liked this relationship so much that he comes back in series 5 for a very sort of intimate character study with him and Kira, where it's the end of his life and he wants to deliver his military secrets to her or his intelligent secrets before he goes. This works twofold, doesn't it? It works as a brilliant character study of Kira, and we've done so much groundwork already. Like, you and I have talked about what's established in series one where 1st of all, she kind of confronts the fact that she's on the other side of the line now, that she's in the same position as the Cardassians. And then in Duet, we establish, you know, she has that terrible reaction to that Cardassian war criminal. And at the end of that, she comes to the conclusion. actually they're not all bad. Yeah. But it is definitely established that, you know, for good reason she is incredibly racist about... Yeah, yeah. good reason. So the worst nightmare for her is to wake up with a Cardassian face. Yeah. Yeah. And that plays out brilliant here. So it's a great study of Kira. And again, she reaches that conclusion at the end of this that not all Kardashians are terrible. This is a good man. She doesn't help him out. But then it also establishes the obsidian order and the central command in series 3 of DS9, and then at the end of series 3, in sorry, in a couple of episodes time, we go to an episode called Defiant, where there's a ton of scenes with Ducat and Cisco as they're going after Tom Riker, and that's all set within central command. He works at Central Command, and the Obsidian Order is keeping a big secret in the Madeleine Cluster or whatever it is. And it turns out that they're building up this vast army of ships to go and attack the Dominion planet and that plays out at the end. And so there's this whole sort of suddenly the show's working on a big scale and it's setting up lots of different things on these planets that pay off later. So the previous episode, we'll get going in a sec, but I just want to ask, the previous episode, The Wire, which is a kind of Garak thing, there's something in his head that malfunctions and causes him to release great wodges of tortured backstory over the course of an episode. No, do you remember? He tells the story as to how he was exiled from Cardassian, but he tells it 5 times in different ways. And they're different. They're different every single time. So they're always like taking a piss out of these terrible backstories. And then Bashir goes, you know, which one of those stories was true? And he goes, doctor, they're all true. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so, so we know something about him, like right from the get go, we know that he has some mysterious backstory and he's sort of exiled. from Cardassia and then it comes into focus in the wire a bit. But this is kind of the 1st episode where we actually see him acting as a kind of member of the obsidian order. You know, he's able to go in and give orders and he knows call signs and stuff like that. that's new, isn't it? It is. And this is also the, yeah, I mean, they've kind of revealed he has a shady past. They've leaned on him a couple of times, like in the station. This is the 1st time as well that he's ever gone with them as part of the and that's something that plays out a lot later on. So I really like what they do with this character here. He gets some really sort of great quips and stuff, but they also kind of like a more tells Kira at the end. Don't get too comfortable with him. He's not one of your regulars. He's not just going to help you. He will betray you if he wants to. And I think that that's a good thing. So we get to have our cake and eat it too. We get to have him go on a mission with them and kind of help out in sort of upsettingly unexpected ways in one case. And then we just get told actually, this is not the new status quo. He is still weird and mysterious and we don't know what motivates him. This isn't him becoming your friend or one of the gang or anything like that. And I think that's good, you know, to keep that going. They never forget that as well, do they? Because later on in this season, he's torturing Odo, if you remember, in the dice cast. Right. Oh, yes, the end of series four. He's trying to take over the defiance so he can send missiles down to destroy the changeling planet, you know. Don't tell me the Klingons would object to a little bit of genocide in the name of self-defence, you know, he's an anti-hero isn't he? And frankly, they're usually the most interesting characters. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, and it's certainly, you know, like it's very different from anything that you would see on Star Trek the Next Generation, I think, and that's one of the things that they get to do. What do you think? Should we go in? Let's do it. I mean, I've got still more trivia, but I can drop it whilst we're talking through the episode. Excellent. Okay, so I will count it in. Five, four, three, two, one, and we're off. Okay, so can I very quickly just read you something from memory alpha that you might find absolutely fascinating. Yep, go on. So it says Robert Hewitt Wolf's original idea for this episode revolved around O'Brien discovering that he was a deep cover Cardassian, which would work as well because they've established that he's a terrible racist too. That's right. And basically the inference was going to be that the O'Brien from Encounter of FarPoint was a Cardassianation on the Enterprise. So they were going to like deep dive right back into TNG. But then they couldn't get past the idea and this was got to stick as well. So O'Brien actually was going to be a Kardashian turned into a human, but then they were like, well, no, but he's had Molly. So if he's a Cardassian chore, Molly would be half... And so they were like, okay, thank God we ducked out of that one. So they chose Kira instead, which is just an obvious choice. a brilliant choice. And did you say that they considered making it stick for Kira? Yeah, so the end of the episode, it was supposed to be ambiguous. I thought they were genuinely going to say, she's a Kardashian. They were actually going to, what he wanted to do was drive the point home that your identity is your experiences and not your birthright. Yeah, but he says, I'm glad we didn't do it. you know, like, it would have felt like a bit of a betrayal of the character. Yeah, I think so. So I want to know why no one is looking at the fucking camera when they're on these video calls. Like, Jesus. Nathan, I don't know if you can see, but there are faces there inside that glass window on the wall. I believe it might be reflecting. So we're in the replimat, aren't we, taking this personal phone call in the replimat, which is a sort of crappy nothing kind of said, isn't it? But yes, like no one is looking at anyone. I don't know what's happening here. I guess video conferences weren't a big thing yet in 1990 whatever. Uh, here we go. This random woman just turning up, you know, to get the plot going. Yes. But I did like, I did like all the different methods they used to try and convince us that this could be the case. Because I think for like the 1st sort of 3rd episode, we're going well, there's just no way, is there? Go on. Yeah, yeah. So who is the person that we throw to who looks like they're going to be really important because they get the last shot before we go into the opening credits as if they're the crucial one? So she's the person that follows Kira onto the shuttle that knocks her out and takes her to Cardassia. Yeah. Because she's there on Cardassia, isn't she? He says, wake her up. What's her deal? Well, I just think she's maybe she's a Kardashian agent that's had extra latex put on her face to make it a bit different. Well, maybe she could have saved time and told NTech how many, you know, federation were on the base and all of that sort of thing. Like, for God's sake. She's there. They never wanted that information, did they? No, I guess not. They're just asking those questions to try and make her think, yeah that she is a spy. But yeah, all the different things that they use. So they use, obviously, the man in the minute who goes, you know you were there, weren't you? Ellensburg. Here, something. Yeah, yeah, you used to wear your hair a bit longer. So he just turns out to be someone, the Kardashians have paid off. And he disappears. We never see him again. He's gone. They probably executed him, I reckon. Well, maybe. But, I mean, the thing is, right, that it could be true. Like, it's entirely possible that this is going to be an episode about the missing week in Kira's life. She can't remember the thing that happened to her when she was on this prison planet, you know, like, and that's the mystery. And so, so it's not obvious at all to us that they're not telling the truth. at that point in the story, right? Yeah. I think I think the only the only thing about the whole concept is we're just going, well, no, they're not going to drop the Kira was a Cardaskan 2.5 season into this show. No, no, no, no, no. But, yeah. And so it does become the how do we get out of this? Because by the time, like there's a moment where she loses it. Like she smashes the mirror and starts crying and that's the bear always comforting. absolutely love. for lots of reasons. But, because, because I was getting to a point where like they're never going to convince her. And then they show her the body, then they show her the recording. And I'm like, 0 my god. And then when she is convinced. I'm like, are we going here? When I 1st watched it. Yeah. And so for like 2.5 seconds, before the twist is dropped, I was convinced for a second. I thought, this is playing some really interesting games with me. Because the other thing is, it's kind of like how the hell do we get out of this? Like, what is really happening? This is, you know, it can't be this. So what are they going to pull? you know, like, what are they going to pull? And you know, part of the... But I was still, I was still waiting for the twist to be like, it's something about Kira, you know. Yeah. I was never looking at any of the other characters. I was like, she knows something or she did something in the past. They're trying to get back at her for or something like that, you know. Well, do you remember future Imperfect where Riker thinks, like Riker is in this sort of holodeck simulation, he thinks they're trying to get some information out of him, and it is that kind of thing that's set up to be a kind of... I mean, this is a sort of standard Star Trek thing. And the twist is that it's not the main character who's the main character here. It's it's Gamore. And so that's kind of brilliant and unexpected and it gets out of it really neatly, I think. It's very, I think it's clever. Here we go now. off to Bajor to try and figure out, yeah, what the thing is, and that's, yeah. And it could have been, couldn't it? It could have been that she just had this week. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's right. And they took her memories away because something so appalling happened or something like that. Yeah, you know, that. They've done that in Star Trek before as well. Of course, of course. It's absolutely a thing they could do. And that's, I mean, that is part of the fun here because this is part of a long tradition of weird, high concept. you know, Star Trek stories that dates all the way back to the original. And so a lot of things could be happening, I think. You know, the only time they've been there to actually get away with, um, you know, someone being a different species to the one that we thought they were, was Cesca. Yeah, but she's a secondary character, and that's the only sort of time they would do it, isn't it? When it's somebody we see every now and again, and it's not really going to impact the series. She's not in the opening credits or anything like that. That was pretty great though, wasn't it? This was such a savvy move, I think, because Bashir was not a popular character, but Garak was instantly popular. and bringing Garak and Bashir together in the wire and then having that relationship play out. I think people then started looking forward to these scenes, you know, just because Garrett was in there. And so is that the 1st is the wire when they 1st become friends? No, it's well, the 1st episode they have together is Garak's 2nd episode, Cardassians, where he keeps waking him up in the middle of the night saying, come on, doctor, we're going to Bijor to figure out what's happening with these Cardassian orphans. Um, But of course, there's a really funny line in this scene. Which one? So it's the one where he really wants to be able to say I haven't left this station in a number of years, except that we did an episode where the 2 of them went somewhere. And so he has to say, apart from that episode that we had. There's a wonderful line in the wire where he says to Bashir was said. I can't believe I enjoyed eating mediocre food and the highlight of my week was having lunch with you.. Savage, isn't he, when you want to? Okay, so we're about to head to Cardassia now, aren't we? Yeah, yeah. So she's disappeared. Here we are on Cardassia. And I really like Cardassian decor. I'm a big fan. And I think it was a great idea, mate. You must lop a station then. It was kind of making this day. station. Yeah, that's right. Making the station Cardassian, other than Federation, we've said before, is a work of genius. Here we go. So there is the money shot. It's her looking in the mirror. It's nice that they wait a 2nd as well, isn't it? sort of in the half dark. Yeah, yeah. I mean, they did the same thing in face of the enemy. Do you remember, the whole pre-type sequence is in darkness. She goes up to the mirror, then turns the line and just goes, oh. Like, this is all a bit subtle compared to face of the enemy, you know? So she's put a lot of makeup on or they've put makeup on her while she's been asleep. So are we assuming, so the spoonhead, right, the Cardassian ladies like put eyeshadow on that. Is that what's happening? And I think they do one of the neck things, like the neck things are sometimes coloured as well, and then she's wearing sort of black. And so what she called, she's called Iliana and things. It's almost like... Yeah, yeah, she's like a Russian agent or something, you know? Well, that's the idea of the Cardassian, isn't it? A sort of Russian intelligence and yeah, but it's also, you know like there's that thing about an occupying force. There's something about the Cardassians. You know, you think of like the Romulans or the Klingons, it's like the Cold War and there's just 2 big power blocks and stuff. And the Carnassians come in when that narrative is breaking down which it is in the 90s where things are localised. There's stuff happening in the Middle East and things and so on. And so I kind of think the Cardassians kind of come from that, you know, the idea of occupying force. is different, I think, from Russia. Because I think in Star Trek, the next generation, it's like the Romulans are like the Russians, aren't they? Like when we go in unification parts, one and two, we go and they have a secret police, the Talshiar and the population. Yeah. the population are kind of scared of them and stuff like that. Yeah. And I think the Cardassians are probably more successful attempt at doing that than the Romulans. They sort of lose the Robbie in the summer along the way in 90s trek, don't they? And this took over. It's like the big evil force in the Alpha Quadron. Yeah, yeah. And it's because they've got a whole show centred on them. Yeah, well, quiet, come the end of DS9, you know, you're spending half your episodes on Cardassia Prime watching that drama play out. Yeah. Oh, I love those scenes whilst weighing in a divar, isn't it? You know? Yeah. And it's like we said before, they do that savvy move of having very vivid characters representing like the Cardassians, you know? So you want to go back to them all the time. Intake was supposed to be a regular, you know, originally. Oh, so they were thinking of that he was going to come back like Dukar. So they were going to have the sort of a series of Cardassian regulars. And then at the end of the episode, they were like, no, we really wanted to drive over the point. don't trust Garak because the inference is these 2 were friends. And then he just murders him at the end of the episode. I rather liked him, you know? That's such a great line. guy is pretty great. I think. Obviously, Paul is brilliant, I think. This dialogue is not always easy to get your mouth around, you know, and they make it, they make it effortless. Um, there's a great story about, I could never get this right. No, no, Nana. Nana, nana. Oh, I think Nana. I keep hearing that now. No, no, our visitor was like, okay, no, I'm done for the day because she was claustrophobic and they obviously put her in this car. That's your makeup and director was like, no, no, no, we've still got more shots to do. And she's like, no, you don't realise I am done. And she started ripping the makeup off her face. I think of all the people, of all the actors on DS9. She was the one that was in charge of herself, you know? Right. Yeah. Yeah. She could just get away with it. a great story, you know. Totally off piece of her going up to Ira Stephen Beer in Ops and going, what the hell is this? You're putting me and Odo together and they had a scathing row over the console in Ops. But she knew her mind. Look at that. The matte painting of the exterior of Cardassia with the big, uh the big TV, the big. Is that supposed to be sort of very Orwellian? Is that, is that the idea? I would say, like, the big, big brother is watching you. Yeah. I mean, it's not the best effects in the world and they do get better at doing it. But it does drive the point home, doesn't it? That they're constantly getting this propaganda in their ears. Yeah. Yeah. Which then makes domestic dissident something that is credible because have we had that before? Like have we had any Cardassian dissidents before? We know about the Oxidian order? think so. I don't think so. But it's something that comes up again, because I think they try and get them off planet in Way of the Warrior at one point. The the Tapa Council, you know, which is the dissidents that have taken control of the government. Right. It is a lot, it is a lovely little thread that runs through DS9. of the Cardassian politics and how that changes. And somehow you can't always in charge of something. Well, I mean, it's Markelema. We wanted to charge, you know. Charming as hell. And speaking of charming, we have Lawrence Bressman here. Ascamore. Do you know, he was in an X-File episodes. Did you ever see that one? Which way? It was this crazy cult that kidnapped Scully, and they wanted to put this horrible slug in her, and he was head of the cult, and he was absolutely chilling. He was so scary in it. It says like early on that when she gets kidnapped, it's once Robert Patrick's in it, so the acting's really good. Oh, okay. So everyone stopped watching at this point, which is a shame. But you've got scenes of him smiling his head off as horrific acts of violence are occurring just over his shoulder. It's really scary. He is really good here. And never for a 2nd did I think he was faking it? Like, I could, like, he's playing. Yep. Yep. I just thought he also thought that Kira was his daughter, that he genuinely believed it. And I mean last night. It's a bit of a double-edged some memories. If he played it sort of knowingly. Yeah. Like, obviously, the actress read the script. He knows where this is going. He knows as far as his character is concerned, this is genuine. Yeah, it wouldn't, it would, it would ring false, wouldn't it, if he was playing it sort of slightly. I'm putting this on. Yeah, and if he was putting it on, that would ruin it. Like if he was kind of leering or unconvincing, but he's really properly convincing like he really sells that it's that she's his daughter. Although, I don't know, they found somebody who looks so like his daughter. They even say that his daughter just looks exactly like her. It just doesn't matter. fair enough. Whatever. We just got to go with it, haven't we? That's the thing, every major race. very... With these very constructive episodes with twists, there are few allowances you use. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think the rewards are worth the allowances here. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's not always the case. So is he the one he, he is about this. He hears about this and he alerts them. So he's on the rescue mission, isn't he? Yeah, about Garak's contacts. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's right. I just remember that bit. And in the power moonlight where he says, oh, I can't take it all. They're all dead. They're all dead. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Although there is a very funny bit in improbable cause later on in the season where he's got to take a load of people and he finds out they're all dead and they're basically all of his enemies. He's deliberately contacted them, given them this information, so they'll all be executed. It's great. So that's the big one. That's the big 2 part of where we actually find out something substantial about his backstory, right? Improbable quality. when Albertain comes in, doesn't he? And it shows there's a lies between the Romulans and the Cardassians, they're going off to destroy. It's a big sort of both character and arc, 2 part type. Right. Yeah, that's kind of fun. I'm still not sure, you know. I'm still not sure that's the best of the season. I still think past tense might be the best of the season. Which is an arc at all. It is really good, isn't it? I really like it a lot. Oh, these, I just, I just love him trying to reach out to her constantly. And she's been so horrible to him, isn't she? She goes, you're good. Really good. You're never going to convince me that I'm a Cardassian. Yeah, look, see, see, if you look at her makeup and they do this with all the female Cardassians, not that there are that many of them, she's got some blue paint on the neck, like one of those sort of neck scales on each side is painted blue. It's so weird. I like all the little details that they add, you know, where he talks about his wife being an inquisitor at the library or something like that. And so you, and he's obviously got a position that he's quite privileged as well. So, there's still this sort of sense that, yeah, he's a nice guy. But my, you know, I don't necessarily do nice things. Yeah. Yeah. Inquisitor at a university made. I just thought it meant a researcher or someone who examined, like did examinations or something. It's a slightly sinister title, but he Inquisitive truth, isn't it? Yeah, it's that word. But he's like he's rich and privileged and his daughter has gone off in this sort of super patriotic way to do this thing. I know you're going to mock this, but I've got to say anyway. I like the fact that they put a window in this room and I like the fact that they changed the lighting from day to night all the time. And it just means it's more visually interesting than just being stuck in a room, you know? Yeah. Also, there's something really sort of glamorously, like, look at how deco the furniture is. It's so... I mean, how'd you put anything on that table? It's, it looks great. The furniture looks really, really terrific. I love this scene so much. It's Cisco and Garak, and he's trying to basically blackmail him going on the mission. Yeah, to come in. But this is very witty dialogue where it's like, if there's any sign of danger, commander, you're on your own. Mr. Carrick. That's the 1st time you've ever been honest with me. How perceptive of you, commander. Yes, if I was left on God, I see, do you think I'd be here? Like, really? Do you know what? The line that made me laugh the most when it goes, why would I care what the Bajoran government think of me? So this is the thread. Wow, that's so good. isn't it has been pulling this trick off since emissary. Do you remember with Corp? He does with, uh, with, right? You know, you know what? First I didn't think I was going to like him. And in this, when Garak's in his mind and he's like, oh, okay, you know, I've got to go. And then you cut to Odo and he's got a massive smile on his face. He's loving it. And he's, he's a soldier. Yes, it is. Commander, this is extortion. And it's really funny because at this point, at this point, he's not as fierce as he ends up being. You know, it's a much, much more low-key. on the player performance. notice that in this. Yeah. compared to like AR 558 and I know they've shown him, you know, on the edge there, but he's still, yeah, yeah, yeah. But here, like he is kind of underplaying it. And so the accusation of extortioned when he kind of responds to it in this sort of, hmm, yeah, it kind of is. you know, like there's no steel there. It's actually really quite funny. Do you remember the bit later on where Odo says I saw I saw him down the corridor checking out the weapons. He was going, I was just taking a walk to stretch my legs. You know, like, that's right. So good. It's these sort of dynamics that I really rate DS94 because there are so many interesting characters. There are so many interesting pairings. And, you know, when they get it right. It just sings. Yeah, it's really good, isn't it? And there's a lot happening, like having an A and a B plot here too, because you can imagine a version of this that just focusses on Kira, right? And the whole thing is about Kira, but... Well, that's the face of the enemy, isn't it? You don't come back away from that Romulan ship, I think, for half the episode. Yes, we don't. Yes, exactly right. And they're kind of surprised, aren't they? When, when, when Deanna appears on the screen or something, like oh, it's brilliant. Yeah, I know exactly that it's her. Whereas here, having an A and a B plot and having a plot on Garak and doing the thing where the A and B plot are actually related to one another for a child. Going in the same direction, are they? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's not just some random comedy plot. Plus, it's very dramatic. Kira wants an arboretum or something. Oh, that was that was that was the one we did, wasn't it? Yes, it was. So boring. You were like, oh, the terrible plot. Keiko acting appallingly. Oh, this is great, where she's giving misinformation. Oh wow, obvious misinformation about the station. But she's not even trying to hide that it's misinformation as well. It is just her kind of going, yeah, I'm not really intimidated here, so fuck off. I'm not even going to pretend to try and convince you with this. I'm going to just tell you the most patent and absurd lies possible. It's pretty great. And somehow, you know, there's just this massive smile after that. And somehow, even through that hideous Cardassian makeup. She still has a fabulous smile, you know? Of course she does. Just a beautiful smile. Yeah, she's really good. But you know, in the same breath, I believe NTEC as well. Like, obviously, he knows that's not Gamorre's daughter, but I think he's he's doing he's playing it well. He's playing onto that sort of you are my agent. You are my best agent that I sent out, you know, to Bajor. But it's this, isn't it? It's like she looks like she's winning. She's not going to be broken. She's just going to tell him lies and whatever. And then we bring this in, and I actually think this is really quite shocking, and there's just a couple details. Well, I remember 1st watching this and I kind of sat upright when it was like Kira's body. I was like, ooh. Yeah, so we bring in the cryogenic chamber and she has the long hair that the guy in dialogue said that she had, you know, you used to wear it longer and here it is. And also there's kind of like ice burn. You know, like the face, like the skin on her face is red and do you know what I mean? Like it, it isn't just, it isn't just Nana lying there looking lovely in makeup. It's actually a little bit shocking in a way, you know, like it's still, it's not going to be gory or anything because it's steep safe sign, but it is. Is it a dummy? No, no, it's her. The 2 of them in that shop together really well. They're not, you know, it's not super demanding. I think no one's walking around anyone else or anything. I don't know. We have established sometimes those shots can be pretty agonising when they try. Super imposed one person over the same person. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, um, it is only... She goes, oh, this is a holosuite. For all I know, this whole thing is, because that's what I was thinking all along, but they were, and they actually, they do pull that off later on in Inquisition when Bashir is being tested by Section 31, and then you don't find out till right at the end of the episode, the whole episode from the start has been a massively called. Yeah. It's a sort of lower decks thing. computer end program, you know like when Mariner keeps saying that when Boyne was talking about his girlfriend. Oh, yeah. You can count on them to play it for long. Yeah, yeah. Oh, and then, yeah, I see, I liked all this style, because, well you know, why would I go to all these lengths to try and convince you? you know, like, what am I going to get out of this? If it's information I wanted, I would have tortured you by now, you know? Yes. Yeah, so we this very convincingly presented. Yeah. And that's, I mean, that's kind of the point, isn't it? Because she looks like she's going to win and then we get the death thing and then his reaction as well, him saying, no, this isn't about getting information out of you, which is absolutely true. We discover it's not about that at all. And so I think, like, I don't think we ever think, oh, look at that terrible, terrible sky outside. Back to TNG series one again. Yeah, it's just a metre away from her. But I love the way, come on, just comes in and goes, oh, you tripped a silent alarm, but off you go, you know, like, like, it's not even going to try and stop her. No, that's right. Because he, he is, yeah. He loves it. He was really good. He does love her and he, yeah. Yeah. Which is why the moment that really got me in this that I found quite moving was when she's resistant of him all the way through then she has that moment of, oh, shit, am I a Cardassian? smashes the mirror. And then he says, look, I'm a selfish old man. I'm going have to get you out of here because they are going to break you. And then she chooses that moment to start hugging his legs. And she like, she grabs hold of his legs and just really holds on to him. And I thought, oh, this is lovely. This is... It's really good. And just presenting him as a good man as well. Like, initially we think he's part of the deception. And at this point, we have no way of knowing that he isn't. Yeah, now we get the recording, right? I think this is what happens when, you know, you and I have said that, you know, they Star Trek can be known to bring in, you know murder she wrote extra of the week to play the latest villain or whatever. You know, these dreadful sort of day players. This is what happens when you bring in really thoughtful actors. I'm not saying this is Shakespeare or anything like that. No, they're thinking about their relationship and they're delivering that to the audience and it's just a little bit more sophisticated than your standard, you know, Star Trek plot of the week. Yeah, yeah. Yes. Oh, I liked how she played this as well. How she played this was a sort of higher register to her voice. Yeah. And a sort of childish, a younger woman. Exactly. Because, I mean, presumably it's been a decade or something like how, you know, it's been a while. I'm not sure it works like this, you know. I mean, they might have, I know people that look like each other but they don't sound like each other as well, you know. Yeah, no, it kind of like once we're making people up to be Cardassians, all bets are off, you know, the normal rules of things don't apply. And again, that's a deep fake and we're all thinking it, right? So we're thinking actually that's fake. Um, you know, Or is it? Is it fake? Well, so what do you think that actually breaks her in the end then? Like, or make that? I think it's the body genuinely. I think it's the body. I think it's NTEC saying we're not interested in getting information out of you, we would have already had we just kidnapped you to kind of my, we, we would have just tortured you and we knew that. That's what happens to Picard. We would have just tortured you for information and we'd have it already. So the body that and the, and the video, but now I'm, I'm, what is the video meant to be real? Yeah, I think so. You were assuming it was. It wasn't just a deep fake made, which is... Yeah, so that's, yeah, so that's where it falls to beards. really like it is just, yeah, okay, right. Like what, what's that? I'm wondering if it's like just gamore's very genuine kindness as well. sort of breaks her in the end. I can't find a chink in his armour. I can't see you out. because there isn't one because he genuinely believes that. she's Iliana. And so there's that as well. Yeah, what's the inside incident, though? Eh? Oh, we'll get there. We'll see. But it's just what's the moment where she breaks. Like when does she go and take the mirror? Oh, I think it might be in the next day. in the next scene? Yeah, but I can't remember. I love this scene, no problem. Garrett stepping in. Commander, I can get us out of this. Yes. And it's so unexpected and he rattles off a code that he just knows and he gets a completely right. So good. It was wonderful. The sort of inoffensive nature of being a tailor, you know? And then, well, this is my favourite. Yeah, my favourite favourite line of the episode and I think it's his best line delivery because I think anyone can kind of mug and chew the scenery and smile and deliver things in a sort of camp way. You know, um, but the way he delivers the line about how he just picked up that clearance verification code uh, while he was hemming someone's trousers and like he sort of, he slightly throws it away and it's so funny. Like, and like, it's the funny thing about it is he's lying. He doesn't expect anyone in the room to believe what he say. He's just kind of reflexively like because it's funny. It's just great. But he does that like silly smile. So everything's going to laugh. But you know what's funny? is then they play up to this in Way of the Warriors. Do you remember they're like, oh, we need to get some information to the company. yeah, yeah, yeah. And so they discuss it... I need to be measured. Yeah. But again, that's another thing where Mr. Garak knows full well what they're trying to do. They're not trying to trick Garak into telling someone something. Yeah, so this is it. There is a lot of unspoken stuff in this show, which I really like like that. Yeah, so what's happening? That cabaret is right in her face, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I don't think she's afraid of it at all. No. No, she really goes for it in this. And, you know, like, she's someone wearing a lot of very silly looking latex and she just kind of goes, no, fuck it. You know, this is, this is sort of melodrama. This is, you know, we're going with the kind of emotional thing here and it really works and they're milking it because they've done it before. They're just coming back to this. She's incredibly good at this stuff. And so they just keep getting it to do it. In the ties of blood and water, when Gamor comes back, yeah. Right. After he dies. There's a scene in the infirmary, where the camera's quite far back in the set, and it just slowly goes in on Nana visitor while she tells the story of watching her own dad die. Right. And it goes on for about 3 minutes and she's genuinely crying. And it's like this 3 minute monologue that she has with a camera just it's Avery Brooks directing it. He directed really, really well. And it's just like, she's so good at this stuff. She's so good. and countering emotion and making you feel. Yeah, she's seriously good. Here we go now. Smashing up. They do what I think about mirrors in DS9, yeah. when DeMar realises he's got to do something about the Dominion? And he looks at himself in the mirror and he throws the canar at it and looks at his distorted face. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, this is because it's about identity and because it's her rejecting who she appears to be, you know, reacting badly because I think this is the point where she thinks that's her. Like she's looking at herself in the mirror and she hates it. Like, I think that that's, isn't that what that means? Like, that's why she's punching the mirror with the image of Cardassian her there? Because she thinks that that probably is her. And... See, look, here, she's still quite, she's, she's in his lap, but she won't quite... It's when he then says, I'm going to get it. get you out of here. And she goes, what? And she actually says through tears, like, you do that for me. Yeah, I think, I think, like, it's, I think making him more affectionate with her would have been creepy, you know, because it hadn't been invited and stuff like that. But and I guess he grabs her arm and holds her because she, yeah like he goes to put his hand on her head. Okay, okay. I think that's, I think that's okay. And then she's hugging his knee. Yeah. Yeah. he promptly holds her. It's nice. And he plays that line. He plays that line brilliantly where he goes, you're my daughter Iliana. There's nothing I wouldn't do for you. And he absolutely... And even at this point, when I was originally watching it, Gary what a bastard if he's tricking her. you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. But I didn't think he was. Like I just didn't think he was. But that didn't mean that I guessed the twist. I think you can remember what the twist was. sort of misdirection. This is one of the better Star Trek episodes in terms of leaving you off on a red herring, you know? Yeah, the only detail that doesn't work is, of course, that she looks like Iliana so much like Iliana, that the father would be fooled by it. And the thing I was less convinced about in the 2nd episode Entires Blood and Water, is it is portrayed as a father-daughter relationship at that point. Whereas we've never had, if maybe if he popped up a few times. And then he popped up on his deathbed. I know. I was just like earlier, they've had this one little adventure on Cardassia Prime, and now suddenly, you know, he's taken up the mantle of being her dad. Well, maybe they've communicated or something like they could look. And so Gamor has a sort of pretty friend, kind of pretty. Well, he's pretty for a Kardassian. Yeah, they have bad hair, yeah. Very, very bad hair. What do you imagine they get all those wigs from? I know, they're so terrible. We need a, you know, half a ton of matted black hair. That's right. Can I just say, right, with the amount of latex on this? Man, those sex must have stunk when they ripped all that off at the end of the day, wasn't they? Can you imagine? It so ridiculous. That's the one thing about Deep Space and Iron is, but it's this space drama where most people have like massive amounts of latex on it. And it's like this when they treat it so seriously and you're going, how do you do this? Yeah, yeah, yeah. it's pretty incredible And it's not an original trek thing. Like, you've got Spoxy ears, but basically aliens aren't just kind of Americans with lumps of ridges of latex in various places. And it's not really, uh, Kurtzman Trek thing, except being so far as we are doing races that were created, you know, in the 90s. It is just a peculiarly 90s Star Trek way of doing aliens. It's so funny. Then Enterprise came along and they started sort of pulling back from the Lasex, didn't they? And suddenly everyone looked really boring. Oh, that's right. Yeah. Yeah, one that you all looked a bit quirky. But I do remember I was sitting watching an episode of Deep Space 9 once and my mum's friend was over and it was an odour of water. What do these people ever live? She was going, what's wrong with his ears? What's wrong with his face? She's going, is this a drama? It's preposterous. You see that sort of dramatic close-up then on, yeah, when the guy got shot. Yeah, yeah. I think that was the one the one bit of dynamic camera work in the entire episode. Is this a lady Kardassian in the background? With the gun? What a pleasant woman, Nathan. So this is nice, and this is where obviously the 2 plots now come together. Although, it does make me laugh, but they just sort of walk into the room. And then they throw the bag, like, who ever throws a bag like that into a room? It turns out that it's Odo. That's right. Well, he's had lots of bag being experienced, hasn't he? We've seen him as a bag before. It's kind of a thing Oh, and this is great because now when it can get to be massively camp and villainous, you know? Yeah. The bag is bizarre, isn't it? He just throws the bag, Entech kind of looks at it. There we get that shitty special effect. Look, I used to love his morphing effects until you start going on about how terrible they are. It is terrible. I love the concept though. They don't use it enough. I do love the concept. It is a bit of a crappy high, you know, crappy, high concept science fiction thing, which you don't really need. This is Star Trek. We are here for crappy content. Well, except that except that you've got Renee Ovision, why you don't actually really need that. He doesn't need a concept and then they turn it into something super interesting, you know, by inventing... major. I've never seen you looking so ravishing. I know, that's so great. Fortunately, he's gay. Well, I don't think there's anything she looks glamorous. And NTEC have been fucking at some point. They're so curious, okay. Yeah, yeah. He does say a pity. I rather liked him. You know, it's really great. killed him. So they turn around, he pulls a gun just to make it okay. And somehow Garak expected it because he turns right around and then just disintegrates him. You know, like he just assumes that Antex reaching for a gun at that and then that line I rather liked him. But it's still not as good as the hemming some pants line, which I just think is absolute comedy gold. I think the conclusion that we're drawing here is pretty much everything he says is brilliant a lot. Yeah, yeah. But that, yeah, it's the Hemmingson pants, and then he goes straight into his next line. Come on, we'd better get out of here. He doesn't sort of mug or wait for applause or anything like that. So that's why I like that line so much. Do you remember that sequence scene in Purgatory Shadow, where he tries to convince war that he wants to join Starfleet Academy? And Worf believes him, but then he realises he's been made a fall on. And Garrett goes. He goes, why, why have you done this deception? And he goes, because lying is a skill like any other. And if you want to maintain to a level of excellence, you have to practice constantly. But I mean, the thing is that we know that he's lying all the time and that's absolutely fine. Like, I think that's the hilarious thing about him. I thought this was really sweet as well. Sometimes I don't really buy these sort of touching goodbyes that we have at the end of Star Trek episodes. But when she says, you know, the payoff to their relationship here is, I think your daughter must have loved you very much and then he held back the tears. It's such one movie. It's a really corny fucking line, isn't it? It's so corny, but she delivers it so well that I just buy it completely. It's really his reaction as well. Yeah, yeah. It's really well played for something that is just as cheesy as possible. scared to watch the other episode with you now then. Tires of blood and war. If you think this is cheesy. Well, like, but it's the 2 of them. you know, you just sell it. And certainly we've had that scene of them, you know, him comforting her when she's distressed, which, you know, you buy, I think. But you know what really made me laugh? I was thinking, I thought, yeah, I watched Star Trek now thinking oh no, what's Nathan going to think of this? This is how I now watch Star Trek. And it was the bit where he's gone off. and she's just holding the jewellery and just staring at it off camera with tears in her eyes. I'm like, who actually does that? Who's stands? No, it doesn't. I've just had a really I thought it was good moment. Yeah. No, I totally bought it. Look at her. Look at her, look at her. She's so good. I would see this. I want you to know something. But look, she's just absolutely, she knows it's as cheesy as any of us do. You know, she knows that, but she's really playing it. Exactly how it needs to be played. She's giving it a bit of sort of proper meaning. She's good. I just think she's an incredibly savvy actress and beautiful. Oh, look. And his response is quite good as well, because it's sort of understated, and he kind of, he doesn't quite know how to control himself under control. It's good. Like, I think it's just a well played... It's a well- played scene, but both of them. Do you think, I want to ask you thought coming out of this episode? Do you think Nanavist is the most accomplished performer on Deep Space 9? Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I would say so. I think it's, I think it's a double whammy refer and... Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's terrifying talent when they come together, the parent. That's right. However cross she was about. Exactly. I don't know though. Do you remember that scene in Dramatis Persona, where she goes to his office and starts flowing with him, evil Kira. We were going, well, what is happening here? These 2 fantastic actors. This dreadful material. They're probably there reading a script in the morning going, we've got to sell this, really. How we do this? Let's just throw it away. Something better will be long next week. I thought that was really good though. Yeah, yeah. Proper solid high concept stuff. that does cheat, but it's a forgivable cheat, and it does surprise you in a way that's kind of satisfying. And it has some good performances. It's got some funny lines and it's very... Yeah, yeah. That is important later on as well. Yeah, it is achieving a lot. Do you know what? I've kind of, I'm coming to the conclusion that the standalone episodes in series one to four. That's where the standalones were at their best. And the sort of the arc stuff is what really worked for me in the latter. So I think things like blood oath, duet, things like the wire, you know, those sort of intimate character stories that was doing a lot of sort of the building blocks. So the art stuff was satisfying later on that those characters were all established. And I've said this to you before, like, uh, the stories are almost sort of self-perpetuating because the characters are so strong. All you need to do is bring in a concept and they can react to it because we've established them and we know them so well. And this is just a really, really good example of that. Yeah. Just, but it's like solidly well done deep space nine. Like it's, it's, even though it kind of borrows the high concept from face of the enemy. It does it in a completely deep space 9 kind of way, and it just reminds me what I like about this show, and it is that it's set in a place in a way that other Star Trek's hadn't been up until this point. And it's a place that's sort of detailed. It's a, you know, cheesy Star Trek place and all of that, but it's Star Trek and that's what we want. And it just means there are things, there's a background against which to do things in a context in which this stuff makes sense. And I just think it's terribly entertaining and accomplished and there's some good performances that are much better than they need to be. I, you know, it's, uh, it's exactly what I watch Star Trek 4. I think. I think the approaches of TNG and DS9 to this same concept is highlighted in something you said in the last episode actually, and that is how they very rarely dive halfway through the story. Usually we establish everything. Well, actually, basically, the enemy does do that. It opens up and she's already been turned into a Romulum and that's the very 1st scene of her looking in the mirror. And it kind of means the concept is the important thing in that episode. Yes. That's what that episode is sold on. It's just the idea that Troy is a Romulan and she's a fish out of water and she's got to cope with it. Whereas this has like a ton of establishing stuff before we get to that moment. But it's doing a lot of work that pays off at the end of the episode. So it's kind of a bit more... I keep saying the word sophisticated, maybe that's too strong. It's a bit more. No, no, I think it is. Yeah, I think it's more sophisticated. I mean, in a sense the person wakes up as a member of a different alien species is a concept that we've already had. So they're deploying it again, but they're deploying it in a different context in order to do much different things with, I think. Yeah, I really liked it. Well, I'm glad we managed to redeem Deep Space 9 for you this episode. mission accomplished. All right, it's that time of the episode and we are going to choose what we're going to watch next time. I chose last time, so it's your turn now, Joe. What series are we going to choose from? Uh, the original series. and that's I'm putting in there. Excellent. If there's one thing I like talking about even more than DS9, which I never thought I'd say, is the original series on untitled Star Trek Project. Oh, okay. We just, we always have a blast when we talk. That's true. That's true. We have had some good ones though. If it's fantastic. They're genuinely the best and it's terrible. It's the best talk about. We've only done one terrible one, haven't we? Have we only done the one terrible one? Spock Spray? I mean, you thought Sposs Brain was terrible. I thought it was massively enjoyable. I mean, yeah. Terrible. Not as enjoyable as sub-rosa, but yeah, no, that's true. Okay, well, look, I'm gonna, I'm gonna press the button. Mm-hmm. Oh, oh, it might be the 1st time again. Season two, episode 15. The trouble with Tribbles. Oh my god, yes. Okay. Yeah, we have to do that. Oh, I'm not sure. I can actually bring myself to press the bat again, and I always press the bat. No, we just have to do that. But I'm going to give you homework as well because I want you to watch... I want you to watch the Trouble with Edward as well, which is from short tracks. And it's an episode that stars John Benjamin from Archer and Bob's Burgers, as a science officer on board a science ship, and it also involves tribbles, and it gives us a bit of backstory because it's set 10 years before Trouble with Tribbles. So I'm going to get you to watch that. Well, then I'm going to give you some homework as well. Okay. Yeah. That's fair. And I'm going to ask you to watch Trolls and Tribulations. Oh I will do that happily. That's one of the... Yeah. A big triple a form. Exactly. I adore trials and tribulations and that's perhaps the one episode of Deep Space 9 that I've watched more than any other. I just think it's really trivic. I think that's the same about everybody, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. The last thing I want is a call from temporal investigations when I get back. So great. Is there an animated series episode that has tribles in it? Oh, there is. I might watch that too. Oh, should we just do all four? Yeah. I might do a triple triple day off. Yeah, I think I think I'll watch the animated series one. I'll watch rewatch all of them. The trouble with Edward's about 8 minutes long. It's not a big drama and it is really properly funny. Like extremely funny in a way that Kurtzman Trek can be. Almost willing to bet, you know, the animated series one is going to be agonisingly terrible. That would be fun. So that'll be fun. And then, yeah, we'll obviously we'll focus on the trouble tribles that we'll be able to play in context of all the others. This great triple expanded universe that is formed. Exactly. I can't wait. Let's do it. Yeah, brilliant. You've been listening to Untitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford and Nathan Bottom League. We're online at Untitled Star Trek Project.com where you can find links to our Twitter, Facebook, and YouTube channel. Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceran, and the theme was composed by Cameron Lahan. This episode was recorded on the 23rd of November 2022 and released on the 2nd of December. We'll see you next time for Star Trek, the original series, The Trouble with Tribles. Let's head somewhere else now, shall we? But, yes, let's. I'll edit that into something. Well, yeah. It looks like we're actually having a conversation with back and forth factions. Okay, I would normally do that out there. No, we don't. yeah um Do you know what? I listened to the entirety of our endgame episode yesterday. Oh, it's fabulous. Oh, is it? So much to mock. than I am. I'm way grosser than you are. I'll start off by saying this will not do. This will not stand this hard. no further. Well, I think this is the best we could have hoped for. That's not that's not an argument, is it? Okay, hang on. Uh, clear all? Oh, yeah. What time? It's nine. What time do you start? Uh, I don't actually start to 12, so I think what I might do is have a, I didn't have a barf at this time. I have a quick bath. have an hour, half an hour's nap and then get ready and go. See, I'm only at 67%. So I have to walk for about 40 minutes. But I'm listening to a podcast. It's nice and cool, but not too cool, sort of dark. It'll be quite nice, then I'll water the plates. It's about rain. Sheet on the window. Okay. Well, I'm ready. Okay. ready. All right. All right, it's that time of the episode.