The Siege of AR-558

Hey, Joe. Hi. So, we're back, and this week, we are watching an episode of Deep Space Nine, which is a thing that we do, and it is from series 7 and it's called The Siege of AR 558. I got that number right, didn't I? You absolutely did get that right. Yes. Good. Excellent. And a very cheerful experience it is too. Yes. So this is in basically everyone's top 10. that right? Maybe 20, I think. Yeah, it ranks. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So I think it's time for me to say that I actually didn't really enjoy it very much. You contrary bastard. Well, so, well, it's no take me out to the holosuite. Let me just say that. I actually think that there are 2 proper problems with it, and I'm going to say what they are. So I think the 1st one is it's an episode that wants to tell us that war is hell, but I think that Deep Space 9 isn't really equipped to do that properly. And so we have an episode where some of our regulars start in, like on the lovely set of the Defiant or on the station or whatever, and then they end, you know, on the station. And so we basically get a little 30 minute outing where they're at war. Excuse me, they come back with one leg less. Yes, no, that's true, and we will get to that. And also I kind of think there's a bit of a weightlessness to it. It's still a very PG depiction of war, and so it can't really be that grim. There's very little blood. You know, like the the phaser rifles. Do you want to see limbs blowing off? Well, I think in order to sell. Well, yes, we do see that. Oh, we don't. It's decorously hidden under a lovely sheet. That's crankled up, man. I bet where you see the leg. Like, I think, oh, come on. Seriously, that's the best we can do. So there's a real PG ness to it which just kind of prevents it from really properly landing. And I think there are scenes. You know, those phaser rifles they have which are clearly made out of kind of balsa wood with sort of vacuum formed plastic on the outside. And so they're completely weightless. They have no recoil. There's nothing really very visceral about it. It is still sort of sanitised PG, Star Trek. And so I don't think that message really lands properly. And then I think that it... Half the problem is, is that, you know, really give a shit about any of these people on an AR 55A. We don't know these people. And frankly, when we hear their backstories, we don't want to know them. No, we don't get very good characterisation off them either. And so they're not made fun or funny. And when you think about stories about war and, you know, I don't know. I think this has more atmosphere than you think it does. I think it is quite oppressive. It's very dark. I think it's shot really well on the sound stage. They're shoving in loads of dry ice. I do feel they managed to capture an element of suspense with the Jem'Hadar coming. Yeah. So I do, I do think in terms of sort of war is how within the experience of the episode, that is put across. But I, thinking about this as I have, because this is, I know you don't like doing this behind the scenes, but this is technically take 2 of this episode, because we had issues with the 1st one, and it's given me a bit of time to think about it. I do think that war is hell is actually presented far more effectively in it's only a paper moon in a couple of episodes time which is dealing with the fallout of this episode of not losing its leg. But it does so in a sort of bright, colourful episode, which really gets up. I say personal with Nog. The last character you would ever think to go on this journey dealing with PTSD. Whereas here, this is just, it's very depressing to watch, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, I think so. And I think I think the other thing that I don't like that much about it is that I don't think it really takes a clear position on war and maybe that's an aesthetic decision. Maybe they just wanted to leave those questions for the audience to answer. But I think a show that's being broadcast in an American context can't really afford to do that. So there's no solid critique of what's going on. We don't know whether this thing is worth defending when Cisco gets asked. He just says. We never mentioned it again. It never gets mentioned again. I think if this was a pivotal point in a Dominion war and this what is it, communications array was an essential piece of equipment in, you know, defeating the Dominion, then maybe this was all worth it. But they actually say at the end of this, isn't it? Was this worth it? It goes, well, I hope so. And at the end of it, you know, when some fresh new star fleet recruits turn up, they're equated to being children and that this experience makes them adults. The fact that they have been in a battle where they kill other people makes them adults. And I just think that it teeters pretty precariously on the edge of being inadvertently pro war, inadvertently pro the kind of loyalty that Nog exhibits in favour of the kind of leadership that ban exhibits. I just don't think it's critiqued thoroughgoingly enough. And I think the only proper critique comes from, obviously, quark which is brilliant, and I think you get some great moments in this. And there is one scene during the fire at the end, which I do, I think that's a really well choreographed by, and it's kind of violent and chaotic in a way that Star Trek fires aren't usually. Normally, you get someone like, you know, ducking over a console shooting, and then someone else shooting the other side of the room and it's all very safe. Whereas this is, it's just a lot of madness going on at once, which I really like. They've clearly spent a bit of money on this. But we cut to quark, and he just looks out at the fighting and the look on his face says, how the fuck did we come to this? Yeah. And I think the message about war as hell is a little muddied because war is kind of good for this show. It's taken them into interesting avenues. And I think the writers know it. The directors know it. The actors know it. And so they put out this episode where they're trying to say, no all this terrible hole we've fallen ourselves into at the same time, they're like, this amazing place that the show's in. It's a bit confusing. This war that we made up. You know, there is. There's this moment, like there's a kind of through arc for Cisco where he is looking at the board, you know, at the beginning of the episode and saying sometimes now they're just names. There's so many of them, I don't even think about the people behind them. And then he comes back at the end of the episode and he looks at the board and then he reminds someone, I can't remember, Kira someone who's there, that these are all real people and we need to remember that. And of course, they're all made up people, you know, in Star Trek. They're not real at all. So yeah, it's all television as you keep reminding that. Yeah, that is true. That is true. With Cisco, though, it's I find that a bit odd as well because he's very unlikeable in this and he's kind of written as a professional and usually there's like a very sensitive angle with Cisco and he's a really nice bloke and yet he's horrible to walk in this and that's never commented on. Usually when people behave in bad ways in Deep Space 9. There is someone giving like an opposing opinion, saying, well you're being an asshole. Never happens. I think, you know, Quirk critiques the way that everyone obeys what Ben says and the way Noggin, particular, does and also has a go at Nog for doing that as well, says that, you know, this is crazy and absurd. And but then the thing happens at the end where someone comes along to attack nog in the infirmary or whatever, and Quark has to kill him to pick up a gun and kill him, and then he's kind of shocked and horrified. As if, you know, he's been taught a valuable lesson that killing people is something that you sometimes have to do and so shut up you pacifist, you know, it, it, I do like, I do like the fact that the 2 times that court picks up a gun. It's only ever, and it's this, and it's in sacramice of angels. It's only ever to protect his family. So like a last measure. That's the only time court will use violence. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I just think, I think there's a, it's muddy and... It marries me. The more I thought about it, the more I grip. But I do think sort of scene to scene, this is still a good episode. I think it is well directed. I think they made a very savvy choice to put like Ezri and Beshit the non-combat officers down. So you genuinely fear for their lives. There are some good set pieces. I just, well, the better than usual set pieces. They'll be fine. No, no, I mean, fearing for their lives. And I think there's a very judicious use of bit fontaneous as well. So, which goes into it's only a paper moon. Well, look, we should probably talk about this scene by scene as we do it. Let's do that. All right. So I am ready to go. I will count us in. 5, 4, 3, 2, one. And we're off. Okay, so this is the best scene of the episode. I know you're going to say this. I know that. Somebody singing, having fun. It's so good. And it's it's rom and he's so fantastic. And he's so sweet that he can't even bear to sing The Lady as a Tramp. And so he sings that she's a scamp, which I just think is so adorable. I love the library. where he says, what is it, show business? It breaks your heart. It's so great. And it is this thing where sort of, you know, Rome is secretly competent, but on the surface, he's a bit crap at everything. You know, his crap at baseball, his crap at singing and all of that sort of thing. failing an audition, you know. Well, and he's adorable as well. very cute. I've never actually seen match Max Brotonchick in anything else other than he's in Sister Act at the beginning. He's the one that gets shot. That she sees. Yeah. I've not seen him in anything else. I don't think I've ever seen him out of makeup actually. That's kind of weird. He looks kind of the same, you know. Yeah, well I suppose. But this is a really, really lovely scene. Yeah, so this is Julian is coming in to ask him for some recordings to play on the front line and there's some indication here that Vic was in the war or something, you know, he's kind of the age, you know, what year is this? 1961 or 2 or something? You know, like he's, he's old enough to afford. I mean, he's not real, but none of them are real, it's all made up. But, you know, like, so there is something. And, you know, there's I just sort of forgive Dame Vera Lyn, you know, with the English troops and stuff, like people singing in order to keep the troops going and USO things in the US and stuff like that, you know. But it does rather like indicate, well, this is going to be a special episode, folks, all right? Because we're going to need some important music to play over the battle scene at the end. Yeah. Yeah, although I didn't, like, I didn't see that coming, I have to say. So here we are in the wardroom, watching reading the big list of made-up people. Oh, those contractual appearance here. Yeah, yeah. There are people who don't appear, are there? No. No, no, curious in the last episode. has a few scenes on the Defiance, so everyone gets their moment. Yeah, okay. Everyone gets a go. Well they have to. I don't get paid, you know. Yeah. I do, okay, I do like the message of these list of names. They aren't just a list of names. They are people, they are individuals. And this episode is trying to drive that point home. by getting us to know people in the war just because it badly fudges their characterisation. It doesn't quite have the impact that it should have. No, and I mean, that is the thing that we do and even people who deplore war or are opposed to particular wars. You know, there is seen to be a sort of valued, like, you know, my school has a big honour board of all of the people who died, who went to the school and died in World War one. And, you know, from an Australian point of view, World War one is super weird and why were we anywhere near it? But just taking the time out to remember those kids who did that? And here it's a little bit kind of borrowed stolen valour, you know, there's no one really in this war and it's all made up. And, you know, we don't have to remember the people in this war because it didn't occur. I think they made the point more effectively in the Pale Moonlight when you had Dax and Bashir, looking at the list and Dax saying, oh I knew that person. And so you see a reaction from one of our regulars, you know, of somebody they knew. Yeah, I agree. You know, I find this a bit strange. It's like a fact finding mission into combat for quark. Like, why would the... I think... Smoking's been whispering in the negative. Let's get rid of him. We're going to make Rom the Grand Vegas anyway. Yeah. So why do we have a council here? Um, because Ejri is cute as a button and we don't want us to get hurt. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think she's fabulous, you know. Yeah, I do too. I think the 31st, 34th rule of acquisition, is it there? War is good for business, and I think that is actually really pretty good, and it's certainly something that the deep space known writers are aware of at the moment, but it is also true isn't it? The, you know, the arms business is huge and it's enormously a wonderful episode with Stephen Burkoff. Do you remember? Business as usual, where... Oh my god, he's brilliant. He's campus Christmas. And he, for once, he's playing ball and actually saying the lines as written. And Quark is supplying weapons to both sides of this conflict. And it's a proper sort of character drama where he realises I really want, you know, the richie as this will bring me. Ashley, I'm a terrible person for doing this. Well, I should have brought that up. I said, well, look, remember that time you were supplying weapons to everybody? Now you're on the other side. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is what the pointy end of the weapons looks like. And this is this is this whole thing about a family member coming into the workplace. as a nog experience as here with Quork. And everyone's horrible to him, but. Yeah, yeah. It's um, I guess it's setting up a conflict between Quark and um Ben, is it? Like Ben's all about business and has a job to do and quite feels out of place, but Ben's not going to indulge him and that's kind of how we keep going. And it's weird though, because I feel like the nog of series one to 3 was sort of savvy and a bit universe wise, and now he's been utterly indoctrinated into the Federation, hasn't he? And he's saying all the usual cliches. And I feel like he's a little naive for it. Yeah, yeah. And I think that that's probably good and that's probably intentional and you've certainly got quite to call him out for it. Yeah, when he says, oh, you know, the fellow's got the, the Keproso white tubes around his neck, isn't that amazing? And Quark's going, are you serious? super mean. But God walked in this, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Oh, it would be a much worse episode. It would be just an entire endorsement of this approach, wouldn't it, of conflicts. Now, are we going to mention standard cave set number one? at this point, this is anywhere near as terrible as you're going to say. Because I think it's well lit. They've brought what they brought the lights right down. Yeah. In fact, I'm trying to watch it on my... It means when they shoot when you see the bolts and things like that. It's a shock because it comes out of darkness, you know? Yeah, I'm trying to watch it on my computer screen and I'm trying to have my screen at a brightness level that doesn't blow my eyes out when I'm looking at you and my notes, which are on a white background, while it's just so you can see what's going on on the fucking screen. It's very dark. Very dark. It's very dark. I'm trying to find a screenshot for the website and all I've got is, you know, Cisco with a big gun in a black uniform against a black background and it's... Just the whites of the Oh no, I can't say that. Can I watch it? Really? It's not a, it's very, very dark. And of course, trying to screen cap any of those scenes as well because everything's moving and because there's sparks and movement and dust and stuff, it is very hard to get a clear read on anything, which I think is good, you know. But I do think that the, I'm going to say this one, don't you laugh at me? Cinematography in this episode, they use sort of oppressive red lighting and the array is really well lit as well. And I just felt, what? I think the array looks like an absolute Star Trek chocolate box. It's like so ridiculous. It's so clean and kind of like it looks like the station and it's got no reflective surfaces on it and it's sort of, you know primary coloured lights and all of that sort of thing. I think it looks very pretty, but I think we've got some point now in 90s track where they are actually thinking about how things look and, you know, they're making an effort to be a little less beige than things were in next generation times. Oh no, I think I mean, I still think it looks good, but it is kind of slightly cheesy. So they're being fired on. They've just landed and they're being fired on by the people who are already here. We're only going to meet 4 people. Is that right? So we've got Vargas, who is the hot guy who is... I think he's the worst before. I know you're going to say... the one with the backstory is the worst. There's 2 other targets. I like the commander. I think she's quite. Yeah, Larkin, if a bit to the point. And I like Bill Mummy's character as well. He's very likeable. But the other two, the 2 blokes. I'll tell you what. Yeah, no, this guy, like the, yeah, Vegas, Raymond Cruz, as Vargas. He is really hilariously bad, but he's kind of hot, so I don't care. And the other guy, Reese, is pretty hot as well, which is kind of nice, but all I've got to say to you is this. And I just sat there and I looked at him. One time in his life, he's quiet. It's so bad. It's so bad. So yeah, we don't get any quirks from these people. We don't get any character beats. They don't really talk about their families. There's nothing they're missing back home. They are super anonymous. And I think it's a shame. Do you remember that episode? And and they go off with 4 engineers, young engineers, and you've got the one who collects the insignia, you've got the Bolian, who's a bit nervous. You've got the woman who's like all military and like, you know I've got a gun and I'm really impro- but and but they're all, like you say, they're quite quirky and they're memorable for it. There's not much of that area, is there? Yeah, look at this. It's a Christmas box. Look at it. It's like that looks like a giant Christmas tree that picks up enemy signals. It's really hilarious. it? It is a big set. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yep. I think it's specially constructed. Or maybe they've just taken the defiant warp core and flung some polystar in rocks in it. We even find out why they need it. No. Yeah, no, yeah. We hope it's okay. And I think too, there is something super odd about this, right? They're stuck there. There's 150 people and half of them, 2 thirds of them are dead right? And they're not getting supplies. They've not been relieved. And Cisco doesn't sort of think that that's a huge disaster or anything. He just says, oh, well, suck it up. Our forces are really thin, you know? He's going to bugger off in a minute, isn't he? You go, right, well, see you later, guys, you know. It's only because the Gemadar attack. no we're going to stay. Yeah, at least he doesn't do that. But there is this kind of level of comfort with this situation which is appalling. And I guess the reason that we don't get sort of cute comedy quirks is because everyone has suffered such a, you know incredible disaster, this is not the sort of thing that we hear about in a normal Star Trek episode. You know, like think about the doomsday machine where poor old Captain Watts's face had to listen to all of his crew get killed. Oh, Decker. Yeah. Your decker, yeah, yeah. You know, but apart from that, we don't normally, you know, get this sort of thing. And so maybe we don't have fun character beats because that make us care about the characters because they're all ground down by what they've been through. We don't learn, I don't think we learn anything about Bill Mummy's character, but he's such a likeable performance and I think he develops a nice rapport with Ezri. I think that's the bit that hit in the finale for me, was the bit where he dies and then she shouts out his name and it's, you know those war film cliches. you know, on the on the battlefield. But it did strike a chord with me. Do you think we like him more too because he was Will Robinson as well? You know, like he was a little boy on telly, you know? And that's Lanier from Babylon 5. I've never even heard of Babylon. I don't know what it is. Well, I would choose you one day. I think I think he's That's the cartoon spaceship one. That's that. That's right. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. As opposed to the model space station one. He says cartoon spaceships, but they're good. So what do you think about this whole sequence of court going on about? The humanity when their bellies are empty, they become as savage and as violent as the most bloodthirsty Klingon? Yeah, I think that that is a thing that's worth saying in 90s trek and I'm glad it's not the sort of thing that we say now, but the critique of 90s trek where they're all just sort of cruising around the galaxy and luxury starships that provide them with everything that they could ever want and stuff. All of that is pretty great. But the reality, I don't know. I think that the way that this show injects a bit of reality into that Starfleet fantasy is good and good for the time, right? I do not expect you to say that, you know. Yeah, I think like because the other big speech that Quirk does in the gem Hadar, you know, where he talks about... When he calls him out being racist. Yeah. Yeah. And he says, our history doesn't have the genocides that your history has. And that's always worth reminding us of. You know, if we're fairly comfortable, we feel virtuous because we're not doing anything very bad, but put us in a difficult situation and what are we like? And I think that that's a question worth asking. But I do like a version of Star Trek that answers that question by saying people get better, like that as a result of, you know, the end of poverty and the end of scarcity and the end of want and the end of racism and all of these things, we become better people. And I think now that's a story that particularly needs to be told whereas perhaps at this time, it's probably a story that needs puncturing from time to time. Yeah, and I get that. And I think that, um, the sort of the optimistic approach of Star Trek, and especially they really lean into it in Kurtzman Trek. Yeah, it's kind of needed now, you know? And it's kind of unique because most shows are dark and cynical and depressing and, you know, and it's nice to have a show that's waving the flat. I know what you're going to say about this. Get there in a second. I've already quoted it, all right? Don't you touch that bandage. Oh my god. So this is Vargas losing his shit at being treated by Julian. He's about to tell us the tragic backstory of whatever this guy was, and it's so cliched and so poorly performed. It's so... You know what, this fella? This fella was in an episode of the X-Files, right? And it was done as a sort of, yeah, it was this Spanish soap opera episode where he had a bride who was like this golem and he was just as bad in that. But he's in a church, sort of frustrating and behaving like a dreadful soap opera character. I mean, I don't mean he's hot, but he ain't great. Yeah, yeah. I mean, this is so bad. This is so, so kind of cheesy and cliche ridden and miserable, you know. And but she literally goes to Cisco. I goes, look, these people are ill, all right? I've just had this agonising conversation with this fella around there. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry, going back very quickly to the optimism in Star Trek. I think the danger of it is it can be a bit boring sometimes that we're all whiter than white and it can be a bit contradictory because they were bloody arrogant in those early seasons of TNG going around civilising the universe and that's annoying. And I do think when they lean into the cynicism or they examine the Federation, in latter day, DS9, in episodes like Valiant and things like that, it's really interesting sometimes as well. to sort of pick up the rock and see what's underneath. That's what makes something like section 31 so interesting. Yeah, yeah. And I'm not a huge fan of Section 31 and when I hear that there's a Section 31 show in development and who knows if it'll ever go anywhere with Michelle Yeoh. I think it is. Yeah, they're giving her a list. Who cares what it's about? You know? Exactly. But I just kind of wonder how it works in the context of new track you know, like how can it work? I'll say this. I'm Discovery... I'm glad they did it. I'm glad they had the balls to examine it all and to say, you know what, maybe we're not white or the white all the time. sometimes we have to do what we have to do. But I'm also pleased that they've gone in the other direction now because, man, man, we're in dark times. It's quite nice to see people behaving in a wide way, you know? Well, just in a way that's desperational. Like they're not kind of sickly or milk toast or kind of goody goody. They're just, they love one another and they are excited by their jobs and, you know, they like doing what they do and they're competent. I think it's really lovely. It's really super fun. But to, in like DS9's defence. I think they balance the dark and the light really well because they do some really fun stuff as well. But also like, you know, you've seen how bad this can be, this examination when you get to series 3 of enterprise and everyone's behaving in an appalling way. Just like, let the Zindi wipe them out. What are they for? Like, what's the point of them? On the whole, in DS9, they are cooled out, you know, if they have to be. Whereas in Enterprise, it's just like, no, that's it. We've got to stop this weapon, the we'll do whatever we haven't happened. All bets are off. We can do whatever we want. Yeah, yeah. Well, what's going on? I've completely lost back of the episode. I can't even see anything on the screen. There's some dim shapes. I feel like I'm an old man watching TV right now. Is that a person? Oh, is it the Houdini mines? So we did have the dialogue explaining the Houdini minds, which they end up using themselves, which like, wow, you know, that's very shocking. That was a, that was a deliberate choice because um, Irish even bear says, oh, memory, I thought, uh, we wanted to show that things had gotten so bad that we were using the weapons uh, that they were going to use. What's interesting is in rocks and shoals in series 6, they do exactly the same thing. Right. But they get called out on it. Um, I can't remember who says it now, but some of, I think it's Dags, they might say it. It was like, oh, you know, half an hour ago we were saying these appalling weapons, you know, and now we're going to use them to get out of this hole. No one really does that, did they? does that comment on it? No, someone, I think, does comment on it. There is a line of dialogue about it. Oh no, Ezry does, doesn't she? does it in this. I'm thinking of. Oh, it's always Dax. Oh, and so the knife, Jesus Christ. Like, he's fucking, you know, what's he going to do with a knife? He's going to cut their ears off or something. See, that's the other thing too, is that part of the weightlessness of this comes from the fact that the people are rubber aliens being shot at by laser beams. And so we never really care that we're killing them. Like whole heaps of them are being killed right now as we watch. Ooh, that one went high up in the air. Well, I'm going to say they're holograms, but you're going to say well, they're all fictional people anyway. holograms. right. I'd forgotten that. But again, we don't give a shit about killing them, do we? And even when they do come along and we do actually kill them. So... is that what you think is missing? that there is no critique. It's so black and white that they are bad. Yeah, they are good. Yeah, so it's kind of weightless, you know, like, and because you're just shooting at them from a distance and they just fall over, you know, like, it's not as grim as war is, and you can't do that on television in a PG show. I think that Battle Star Galactica does a better job of this. And I think Battlestar Galactica, like Ron Moore goes away and creates a venue that actually can support this level of critique. I think they're dipping their toes at this point. And I think you're right, but I just don't know, like, how far can you go? Are you saying you shouldn't do this if you can't commit to it wholeheartedly? Well, yeah, I just think because you're trying to make the point that war is hell and it's all just very PG and a bit weightless you say you just can't make it land? Oh, I am going to say this, though, because I, there are a few other Star Trek podcasts that I listen to and one of them has a war veteran as, and he found this all really moving and a lot of this, he sort of recognised. maybe we're not the right audience for this as well. Well, maybe, but I mean, you know, we're here for 30 minutes and and Battlestar Galactica is able to do, you know, longer form storytelling. You know, like this one does at the beginning of series 6, but the beginning of series 6 doesn't put them in a situation like this. I was speaking to Brendan about doing this during the week, and he said that he thought it would be more successful if it had been 3 episodes, like if we just had them stuck there for a whole episode rather than an episode where they arrive at the beginning, hang about for 30 minutes, and then all go home. You know, if they, we'd had it. Save a lot of electricity in the studio, if we did this for 3 episodes, it would have been unwatchable. I mean it would have been so boring. Like there's just about enough material here to support the 42 minute runtime. Yeah, and I think they cut to action often enough as well. Like, you know, there's there's enough going on. Maybe it's that Star Trek insistence that everyone has to have a go that means that you can't tell a story like this starting in the middle. You know, we can't have just Ezri and Quark and Julian and Nog and Cisco down on a planet where they've been for weeks and a thing is going on and we see it happening to them. Do you know what I mean? That would be more effective. But we have to have the fucking station in a, You know, Miles O'Brien needs to get a line. You know, so we can't do it. We just can't tell this story properly within the constraints of Star Trek, I think. Whereas there are some shows at this point, like alias that would start somewhere in the middle of the episode and then cut back into beginning, be like, Yeah. 15 hours ago. Yeah, other TV was doing this at the time, but Star Trek was super conservative in the way that it tells stories. And so, and it still now is, you know, like there's a particular Star Trek structure that you just get. You're not going to start in the middle of things like that. You're not going to you know, not have the main characters. We actually just talk all over that superb scene where Quark says we would not have done this. If this was... have it out an agreement, you would have handed out an agreement. And you think, yeah, that's what the Federation is supposed to do. You know, we had series 4 of discovery where, you know, we're not going to send a bomb, even though they've destroyed some of our planets. We're going to negotiate with them and make contact and see what we have in common. It's meant to be what the federation does, but here they all are just firing weapons at rubber people. But in the same breath, it's not like DS9 isn't capable of saying like what has happened to it. In rocks and shoals, at the end, where they murder all the Gemadarts. Cisco's appalled, like that he's had to make that call to get his people out of there. In the pale moonlight. He spends the entire episode, you know, giving himself a therapy session. Yeah. They can do it. I'm quite sure what happened here. Yeah. Yeah. It is funny, isn't it? There just isn't a proper solid kind of position that it takes on the wall. I think the examination of knock in is only a paper moon is there is a mild critique of this. at the end where he says, I thought I could do anything, and, you know, and I throw myself into any dangerous situation, and now I'm really scared, you know. Yeah. Yeah. But it does it by giving us lots of laughs and songs and wonderful moments, you know? Yeah, yeah. That's more fun to watch. Yeah, I think this is just a little bit miserable. Well, they lean into this quite a lot, you know, this is real, my my previous host, Emily, was an expert at this, but somewhere halfway through the season, they decide, right, she's a fully formed character now, and she stops doing it. But for the 1st half of the season, she mentions every single one. And at one point they're making lots of, oh, which one, which host was this now, you know? Yeah, it's funny, I guess, what do you need to do? Because you've got Dax there, and you establish in the 1st episode through flashback how she got to be Dax and stopped being Curzon because we need that for when he meets when she meets Cisco for the 1st time. And so we get to see that. But basically it's not an important part of her except for the odd episode because it's just how she is. until they go, we haven't done a true episode for a while. Yeah. We've, he's a magical theme where... All of your hosts can be inside your friends, you know? Yeah, that's true. Here's a lover from the past. It just happens to be a woman. And the mysterious one that we never talk about who turned out to be a serial killer. I love that. You know, when he when he comes along in... Oh, it's his season, isn't it? Yeah. When he comes along and they do a procedural and he's melodramatic as hell, honestly. He's crazy. That's a different girandex though, isn't it? That guy. It's not the same guy as before. See, that's another dark episode, but it's campus hell. So it's much more fun. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, God, this set doesn't look really good on the through the binocular binoculars, does it? It's completely... Oh, just reference from the young ones. I do think I do think Nog Scream in a minute is really horrific. Yeah, yeah. They, and they, and they suddenly cut it off. Don't they, into silence? You know, another thing that I think is super successful about this production is the music? Oh, yeah. I think the music is really good. But it's Joe Chataway. They go for quite. No, no. It's Paul Burgillion, isn't it? Is it? Oh, okay. I would just assume if it's good, it's J. Chataway. No, no, it's a fresh composer. I only did a couple of episodes. And I think they've deliberately wanted quite a pretty sounding score to be quite discordant against the violence. There goes Nog's leg, by the way. But yes, that's exactly what they're doing. There goes his leg. Yeah there it goes. It'll be back. And see, even that's a thing. It's kind of like how he's blowing off his leg, but we know that in the future, he'll just have another leg and everything will be all right. But to their credit, they give a whole episode over to that. Yeah. No, no, like O'Brien in hard time, who's had this entire lifetime of prison experiences in his head. We never go again. Well, you know, you're going to have to deal with this for the rest of your life. Yeah, never mentioned again. That's right. So props for consequences. On DS5. You see, even that where the kid did all right, it's kind of like fuck, like what? Because he's supposed to just get his leg blown off in order to protect the Christmas tree and we're just not even going to critique that in any way? Like, well, you know, people are dead for the for the Christmas tree, you know. I just kind of wish Cork had the some kind of upper hand at the end of this. Because he says to Cork now, you know, how dare you say this to me? I care about everyone under my command, every single one. I sort of shuts him up. But he's quite violent with him, you know? I don't know. I just want Cork to have a remark or something to bring in. It never happens. I actually thought that it was a bit ugly also making him kill that guy. I just sort of think it was kind of like you've taken a pacifist position or episode and we're we the writers are going to show you how wrong you are. I didn't get that reading though. You know, and I'm and Shimmerman said he doesn't want Cork to be violent and he would only let it happen. Yeah. Yeah. But I still kind of think that, you know, he's the one who said we wouldn't be killing one another, we would be negotiating, but he's put in a position where he has to kill someone to protect Nog. And so it's like, huh, so even you're going to kill someone, you hippie freak, you know, like I just, I thought there was a nastiness to it. Oh, look at the leg, look at the leg. This is so funny. Jesus fucking Christ. Talk about PG. Have a look. And he's going, oh, it doesn't really hurt. It's fine. I'm like on heaps of drugs and it's the future and no one cares. You know, like he's not even sweating. It's all a choice thing. I know it's miserable. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That full of choice into him. Oh, it's awful. Honestly. I mean, I do feel this point is made even more scathingly invaliant with a bunch of cadets that all get murdered at the end going, yeah, we could do anything. Yeah, this. You just followed orders. You did what you were, you know, trained to do. I'm proud of you. you know, well done. You lost your leg, there. Jesus Christ. Like, if he wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. If he is an indoctrinated Starfleet officer now, as his commanding offer to say, I'm proud of you. I suppose that is trying to soften the blow a little bit. But you can see how it valorizes their behaviour. It says we're doing the right thing by doing this and you did the right thing by obeying my orders when I said to go and kill those people in order to protect the Christmas tree. And so I just think that these things muddy the waters a bit and we end up not coming away, I think, with a very clear anti-war message. And like I said, maybe that's a deliberate aesthetic choice. They just want to raise the questions and that's a legitimate thing that they could choose to do. But I think it might be a bit of a problem. I mean, props props to them for going there. Yeah, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. you know, and we're having a discussion about it now. So that's right. That's right. And even the music in a way does that. It's like this sort of incredible kind of, it's, it's beautiful, uh but it's sort of stirring and patriotic as if we're watching a glorious thing happen, you know, despite all the explosions and the people dying. You know, this is documentary footage from the future. All the little death stars blinking into existence here. Oh, I do like these, though. I feel like they should have taken these bombs and used them again in later episodes. Yeah, they are cute. And that's completely computer generated, are they? There is another part of this production that we haven't talked about, and that is the sound effects. And I think there's a lot of, because the screams sort of coming over the distance at the end are really chilling. These Houdini minds sort of have this awful... sort of growling home. Yeah. Now, can we just mention the cephalic veins running down Reese's biceps or is no one else noticing that? Yeah, well anything to make it a bit more enjoyable? He is feared, isn't he? I just imagining this exposition scene taking place on discovery with sort of giant, holographic, like transparent, spinning holographic maps of the terrain, kind of sweet interview and experience. Yeah, that's right. We've run out of holographic stuff. Yeah, we are. Later on in the season, um, talking about that violent approach. Obviously, Kira goes to Cardassia and basically it's like pro terrorism at the end of the season. Because they're basically saying the only way we can bring them down is to kill a lot of them and this is how we're going to do it. And I'm not sure the series ever critiques that either. Well, do you remember in Battlestar Galactica on New Caprica, where it seems that the terrorism they're doing is the right thing to do. Like, it's what they ought to be doing. And I think that's so good. Like, it's... That's the beginning of series 3, whether on the planet, isn't it? And do you remember that after that, they follow that up with the collaborators? There's like a car bowl that are bringing in all the collaborators and murdering them. Oh, man. It's so good. That's too much for Star Trek, isn't it? You can't quite go that far. I mean, Star Trek can barely do this. I think it can't do this. I think it doesn't pull it off successfully, but I do think that Battlestar Galactica, which is another space battles show just seems to have the weight to allow it to do this sort of thing successfully. No real necessary to be optimistic in Battlestar Galactica. It could be incredibly dark. Whereas this almost, and you know, there are people that will say this is a complete betrayal of what Star Trek should be doing. Yeah, I mean, I, you know, I think I agree with you. It's interesting to see them do something else. And if they're going to talk about a war, they probably ought to show us what it's really like rather than, you know, it just being a computer game that they're all playing from the comfort of the standing sets. They do do a bit of that, you know, when they have the blobs on the screen, attacking each other, because they can't afford ACGI modern work. Yeah. Oh, he's, I think, you said it does well. I think they are sort of halfway there here. Yeah. But you're right. They can't take it as far as they need to go. They can't be as sort of visceral as it needs to be. Yeah, yeah. But then you did see that man. You saw that man in all about to the stronger ideas, guts spilling out all over the place. and you didn't lie. No, but it's not because of that. Again, I think that it can't pop, it can't properly sell it. And I just don't think there's any pleasure to be had by putting Jake in that situation where he fails. And again, there's a cheesiness as well. You know, all of that conversation that the doctors, the field medics have is just so fucking cheesy and cliche. It's like love that episode. They've wandered into a much worse television show and a joke. It's space, space mash, isn't it? That's right. Oh here we go. Here we go. We're going into the fight now. Vic Fontaine's serenading them all into the conflict. I like the flashes in the background, like the flashes against the sky, the fake painted sky, I think is really good. They look great. And I think I think this is done really well because it goes very quiet and then the guy goes, oh, maybe they're not coming. Maybe we got them all. And then you just hear the screams coming closer and closer and closer. In terms of suspense. I think it's well done. Well, except that we know that they're coming and they'll be a big battle at the end and none of the regulars will die and probably everyone else will, you know, Star Trek. Cynic, Nathan both away. There is a moment which I think is actually pretty good, and that is where Cisco blacks out and then comes to, and the show can't have, it can't kill Cisco. It can't kill any of the regulars. But what it does is it gets us to see and gets us to imagine a version of events where he does die because he blacks out and we don't quite know why he comes to, and neither does he, apparently. And I don't think it's addressed in dialogue. And I think that's good. Like that's as near as we can possibly get to a regular dying. Yeah, I mean, I think all of this, though. Or like I've got gone about how chaotic it is, but it is just like to one fight set piece to another to another, to another. It's really, really crazy. And the lighting's great because it's so dark. So we're kind of getting flashes of the conflict. If you're going to sort of show war as hell in an action sequence. I think this is probably as good as it's going to get in 90s right? Yeah, yeah, I think you're probably right. But again, you know, like, like, look at Billy Mummy with, or Asri with that fucking laser phaser rifle, they're so terrible, those guns. You know, we've commented on... You're in the 1st series, TNG ones. Oh, yeah, the Dustbusters. Yeah, yeah, yeah. which they do kind of redesign. Excuse me, can I just say, I'm assume, with a look. I mean, he's so good. Yeah, that was that. He hasn't got a fucking say a word. prick. Got a knife in the back. I hope he got stabbed with the other guy's knife. There's, um, there's Reese of them, I can't remember. They say that the Gem'adar weapons have an anti-coagulant, don't they? So that's pretty horrible, isn't it? mean, you can't stop bleeding. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I mean, in essence, it's word peril. We don't see people bleeding out as a result, do we? There is an episode in series 5 where someone bleeds to death very slowly. Right. But what I like is that they have recoil and they seem to have weight and they make a really metallic thing and they shoot bullety things. It's not just firing laser beams at people. Like they're more like real weapons. And so I think they're better. Oh, in terms of like muscular villains, the Jemadar up there aren't they? Yeah. In terms of like being a physical threat. Because very often. Yeah, but because they're all sort of, you know, grown in a test tube and addicted to crystal meth, we don't really care about. Like, it's just like, oh, yeah, well, I think those are interesting quirks. I like and they explore all of that really well as well. No, I agree. I agree. And there are certainly episodes where we're encouraged to sympathise with them. Otherwise, we'd just be saying, well, they're just faceless grunts you know. Yeah. Well, that's what they are here, essentially. Yeah, they don't matter. Yeah. Yeah, they're just gonna kill us unless we kill them. Oh, well, we saved the array. Happy days. Yes, it's nearly Christmas as well. So. Yeah, do you know what? Maybe, I mean, they'd never be bold enough to do it. Maybe if they'd we'd lost a regular here. This would impact a bit more. Yeah, but they just couldn't do it. That's it. The problem is the show is serialised. Everyone needs to be in it and everyone needs to be back to the status quo ante at the end of the episode. We just lost one of the regulars. Why couldn't she just hung around for a couple more episodes and then we took out that? No, they couldn't. That's miserable. Well, it's pretty miserable when she does die here. But it is a kind of giant ludicrous space opera death, you know like it's not she gets shot by someone with a big fucking gun. You know, like that's... Awesome. This is what I think you can get behind. Is it pure melodrama? Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly, exactly. I've just reminded myself why I love this soap opera approach. Yeah, exactly. That's what I'm here. That's exactly what I want is soap opera. And there's, yeah. Do you know, this, this probably would have benefitted massively from that sort of documentary style camera work they do in bad style, but there's a, yeah. There's like an immediacy to it, isn't there? Yeah. See, that scene there is trying to do something, but does it? You know, it's kind of like it was a worthy victory, you know worthy of song. And normally wharf is wrong. like we've said that before. And Cisco replies with it, cost enough, but like what? Do you know what I mean? Like what? I just don't know what we're saying here. It's really, really unclear. The way he says, let's go there. It's like they've done the initiation of ceremony where now we're men. Let's go. You know, now we're going to go and these kids are going to stay here and starve and two-thirds of them are going to be killed. This ain't fucking boot camp, you know? So long as the tree is still up by Christmas, they've... I would like you to note that the surface there is reflecting the lights off the console. He's very slightly reflective. I just saw the full light for that. full console in there then. Thank you very much. I will put this out every time. shittest laptop, doesn't it? It's like a huge fat Dell. It's so nice. It's it's none of this. And suddenly all is all right with the world. Yep, yep. And her contractual obligations have been met for the episode. She learns a valuable lesson. You know what the episode is? Between the 2 war episodes here. It's covenant where she goes off to Npok Noor with Dukat, and he's got that evil group of religious, you know, his own religious cult. Man, it's amazing. This seems to get real terrific. That's why were we watching that? And Ducat's got like the, he holds the baby up and it's a half Cardassian baby, so he's been fucking half the religious nuts. Oh, of course he does. It's like, it's a miracle. The baby has got a Cardassian face. It's a lot more fun than this. Well, okay, I've got a question for you then as we out that episode. Well, you know, I've said, I think this is pretty good. with some problems. You've said it's appallingly terrible. Why do people rate this then? I think because it does something that Star Trek doesn't normally do. and I think that's a good thing. They're right to rate it for those reasons, but I also think that there are people who want Star Trek to be properly serious. And so this is properly serious because it's got guns and fighting and stuff. And I really meant it when I said that I thought that the scene with Rome at the beginning was the best scene of the episode. Um, Because I don't think Star Trek is serious. I think Star Trek is ridiculous and marvellous and, you know, like just fantastic in all kinds of ways. And I think that just doing a kind of B grade PG war movie that doesn't really particularly say anything about war that seems to be valuable or interesting. I think it's a bit of a failure this episode. Did you never try then? No. Like, obviously, you remember the wounded in TNG, it tried to do like a trickies on terrorism, didn't it? Yeah, it's the same problem. It's so sanitised that you're like, it's just making any kind of a point, but should they just not try then? I think that someone during development should have said, actually I don't think we can do this justice in this format because I think that that. And R.A. said, I want to do it anyway. I want to try and do this. Well, good for him. Yeah. I think he failed, but, but, you know, it was worth a try. Certainly lots of people have enjoyed it over the years. So, you know, maybe it was worth doing. But I do think it fails basically at what it says out to do. Often, there's people out there that think you should be institutionalised, saying that take me out of the holiday suite is incredible, and this is a failure. I'm a very, very perceptive critic. I would not disagree. All right, it's the end of the episode and it is time for us to choose the next thing that we're going to watch, and I think it's my turn to press the button. Am I right? time for you to choose the next thing we're going to watch. That's right. Are you finally going to exceed to popular demand and just do whatever comes up first? No, I don't think I'm going to do that. So I am going to do something for a very silly reason, which is that I spend some time writing code on the website so that it can display just 10 episodes at a time of a particular show. So if there's 11 episodes of Star Trek, the Next Generation, one to 10 will be on one page and 11 will be on another page. Okay. Yeah, that's absolute triumph. But we haven't done 11 episodes of any series yet. And so I haven't yet put that code into action. And so for that reason, I'm going to choose another episode of Star Trek Deep Space 9. Also, the other reason for this is that this was so atypical and an episode that I didn't really enjoy very much and I would like a palate cleanser where I get to watch an episode of Deep Stace 9 that I can laugh at or with or at least near. I'm going to rely on you. I mean, I'm not going to say, no, that's not doing an episode. Let's not watch Deep Space nine. It's terrible. Yeah, so that's what we're going to do. So I am going to press the button. Ooh, and we have season three, episode five, 2nd skin. Oh, my word. I love 2nd skin. This is faces, but for Deep Shace 9, right? Well, I was thinking of the Romulan one. Yeah, is that call faces? No, that's the one where... is split, isn't it? It's the face of the enemy. That's what you always called that episode is B'lana split. Oh, I never bought that before. The case of the enemy. Second skin, I think it's better than the wrong, uh, face of the enemy. I think it's better than that. None of it's just fantastic, but it's a great Garak episode as well. What do you think? One of the real pleasures, the face of the enemy, is that it's one of the episodes where Marina is just absolutely superb and where she's not being like the good girl or the cat, you know, Roger something to do for once, you know? Yeah, yeah. And she absolutely kind of beats Carolyn Seymour's character. She's brilliant as well. I mean, you've got 2 women up against each other. That's strong. It's great. Wow. That's not that so... But what do you think? Um, I think it's one of the best of season three. I think I think we should watch it. I mean, have some fun with it. And it's just brilliantly acted. Right, let's do that one then. Oh, it's great. I really love 2nd skin. Would you? I like Seeds of H4 558. So, yeah. You've been listening to entitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford and Nathan Bottomley. We're online at Untitled Star Trek project.com, where you can find links to our Twitter, Facebook, and YouTube channel. Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Cisrin, and the theme is composed by Cameron Lamb. This episode was recorded on the 21st of November 2022 and released on the 25th of November. We'll see you next time for Star Trek Deep Space 9, 2nd Skin. I'm not sure what else I can say about this. Actually, I thought we were kinder than I thought we were going to be, actually. to know. Yeah, well, I mean, you know, like, it's still Star Trek. I like Star Trek. You know, I didn't hate watching it. It just is not Star Trek that I like very much at all. And I do think that it does try and do some things, but I do think that essentially, you know, it was doomed to failure. My L Media player has just started playing an adventure in space and time. Like when that episode finished. I had an adventure space and time running on the... I went straight on to confident. We're serving up a Tilliban froth, whatever that is, but it promises a lot. Where's the made up space food? For fuck's sake. No, we've already got war rationally older. Well, it's your choice this time. think it is. Okay, I've got it. Oh, this sounds like a bit liar. Come on. Or we can laugh at more. Okay. Turn on Star Trek Project. All right, it's the end of the episode.