Vaulting Ambition

Hey, Joe. Hi. At the end of our last episode, I think I was pretty excited about doing this. This is vaulting ambition, which is episode 12, and I think it is the 2nd last. So the 3rd of 4 episodes of series one that is set in the Mirror Universe. Is that right? I think that is. It's our 1st venture to the very universe. Yeah, and I'm not going to have shit all over this right at the start of this, but I'd say it is one of the weaker Mirror Universe and it's certainly probably the weakest of these four because it's like a transitionary between A to C episode, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. So we sort of had a similar structure last time when we did image in the sand and shadows and symbols where there were basically 3 or 4 plot threads that were just running through the thing. But that was a whole story. And so those 3 or 4 plot threads all came to a climax at the same time and they all came to a conclusion and then we sort of met up. This is a bit more like an episode of a soap opera because essentially, we have a few plots progressing and they just advance very gradually, and then there is a big climax at the end. And the other 3 mirror universe episodes, which the randomiser didn't choose, all have an actual coherent thing that happens in each of them. There's even like a massive twist or a big set piece or like there's a sequence between Locker and Giorgio, where they kick the shit out of each other for about 10 minutes. It was just incredible. Do you know what? I thought that this was going to be that one. I was so excited to watch. I'm like, well, what's this? It's just people talking for half hour. You know? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And so I think the 1st episode is, you know, they arrive in the mirror universe and kind of find out what it is because this is the 1st ship after the Defiant, which must get mentioned in mirror mirror, uh, to enter the mirror universe. They like using a defined in these mirror universe episodes, you know, because Enterprise rebuilt the defiant sets for their 2 passer and it is in the original series one as well. So yeah, there's a common location. Yeah, and it's the sort of thing that this version of Star Trek would do is to kind of go back to the very beginning and, you know reference the Mirror Mirror episode of Star Trek, the original series. Of course, they would do that. Guess it's for the past, in Kurtzman Trek. I don't know what you're talking about. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so our 1st episode is them arriving and then Tilly having to pretend to be Captain Keely. That's really fun. Yeah, which is really fun. It's like a dreadful pantomime because she's just cocking up in various ways, isn't she? Well, she really gets into it, doesn't she? And they put her in this fabulous gold costume. You know, very elaborate straight in her hair. She still has the straightened hair actually in this episode we're going to watch. And then the 2nd one has us meeting all the non-human races, all of the people who are kind of terrorised by the Terran Empire, and that includes Michael's father, Sarek. It includes Volk, who is then revealed to be the mirror universe version of Ash, and Ash is kind of activated by seeing Volk as a Klingon. And so there's a thing that happens there. And he murders the lovely Dr. Colbert in, I just couldn't believe when they... so bad. I mean, there was a bit of retro rewriting there, was it? It was Wayum Star rewriting. No, we like that character. Let's find a way to bring it back. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, then they go on and make fun of it with shacks between series one and 2 of lower decks, where, you know, it's just bridge crew members always kind of come back to life and it's best not to talk about it too much. But it is a huge mistake and it is an instance of bury your gaze as well. You have the 1st gay couple on Star Trek and you kill one of them. Which, given sort of the path discovery takes in terms of representation, is a bit shocking, isn't it? Yeah, it was a bad mistake. And then after this, after this episode, we have the giant climax and we have Locke falling into a... Which is literally like balls to the walls. That's really great. is amazing. Yeah. And, you know, after what's the woman's name, Giorgio, the actress. Oh, her cousin Michelle. And she's got a massive fuck off laser gun. and she's letting you crack, crack and shooting everybody. I mean, when she agreed to do this, You know, I almost she had that written in her contract. you know, I want a big gun, right? There is nothing like seeing a woman in her late 50s like kick the shit out of people and kick them in the head. You know, like she's so good. I mean, I'm convinced that the direction that the showrunner had before he was fired wasn't that they were going to go into the mirror universe and then the evil Giorgio was going to be a regular character, but it was the best innovation that came out of this whole mess because then she went on to be the best character in series two, three. good. So we will talk more about this because I do think that the mirror universe does the actual proper plot thing that a parallel universe is supposed to do in genre TV, which is you go into the mirror universe to see the consequences of what will happen if you get it wrong. And Star Trek Picard series 2 does this as well. The Confederacy and the, is it the Confederacy? The Confederation. No, the Confederacy's real. The Confederation and the Terran Empire are very similar. I still think that 2nd episode of Picard, you know, series 2. It's one of the best episodes they ever did with Picard, a mad pyrant dictator. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's very good. But I think, like, the very universe. I think it's actually a little more divisive than I thought. I think people kind of either love it or hate it, because generally speaking, it's sort of dark comic book versions of the characters that we know, there's usually a lesbian about somewhere you know, doing unspeakable things in leather. And I think the original series got it just about right when they did mirror, mirror. And that's that's a quite a dark episode. I won't re-roll that at some point. TNG didn't touch it at all, did they? They never went to the M University. books and things like that in spinoff material. And then DS9 really led into it and it did basically an annual visit. to the mirror universe with running pots going through it. And it's, it basically is the reverse of what DS9 usually does which I think gets better as it goes along. Well, their mirror universe episodes start incredibly well with crossover and ends appalling me with the emperor's new cloak. And I think they just got a bit lazy as they went along and just leant on the sex and the violence and the action. Whereas the 1st one was genuinely like uh, this really, it's the station, but back as an all processing plant, Kira's this mad tire and it's genuinely a very dark, very disturbing version of Deep Space 9. Enterprise, didn't touch it at all. And like, but it's like the 3rd or 4th to last episodes. And suddenly Enterprise is having fun and boy, do they have fun? That's one of the best Mirror Universe stories, that Enterprise one, with a gone running around the defiant, things like that. and Hoshi as a Hoshi's the eagle lesbian in that one. Finally given something to do. So here we don't have the evil lesbian because we're beyond that, I think. And so we don't do that, but what we do do is kind of confront the Starfleet people with this sort of bleak version of themselves or their world that isn't adhering to kind of the morals of Starfleet that is based on an entirely different ethic. And given that they're at a point in the war, when they're having to make decisions about whether to junk their ethics in order to just win, it's really timely. And of course, there's digs at Trump, which, uh, seemed surprising at the time, but aren't surprising now years later after we've had seasons and seasons, of course, on trek, which is very, very clearly positioning itself against, uh, you know, the alt right and all of that kind of thing. I think it was surprising about this sort of four-part diversion. And the fact is 4 parts of, you know, a fairly short season. So they're committing a lot of time to this is the mirror universe could be sort of old hat at this point, but they genuinely breathe new life into it, you know, and do something interesting with it. And I, I'm not sure what I think about law car, who was established as a really interesting character at the beginning of this season, and then just turns out to be, you know, comic book villain. you know, of the week when, and you know, and then he's just summarily dispatched. And I'm wondering if that character was ever supposed to like remain with the show or this was always a path they were going down. And he's a lot of fun. But I just, I think all substance with law, just vanishes, the 2nd we jump into the mirror universe, and that's a bit of a shame. Yeah, I always kind of thought that at the time. Like, I thought, look, you know, there's a possibility it ends up him being from the Mirror Universe, you know, because he's the Starfleet captain who can't be bothered to learn whether a Gormagand is a fish or not. You know, like he just doesn't care. And he does seem to have a personality disorder. Like he is very unlikeable and he behaves in all sorts of odd slightly creepy ways, particularly towards Michael. And it's kind of, you know, like I think there is kind of a mystery about why he's like that. And so we solve that mystery here, and I kind of think that's okay. And certainly, you know, maybe we weren't going to get Jason Isaacs for, you know, more than one year. Yeah, I just I would like him to stick around, you know, because he is very... good. Yeah, yeah Well, then conversely, though, I think on the other end of the scale, I found Georgia a little bit dull in those 1st couple of episodes, whereas her version in the Mirror Universe is just extraordinary, you know? Yeah, yeah. Michelle Young. We can't say she's not chewing the scenery because she's devouring it wholeheartedly. She's loving every 2nd of this. And that extends to the audience, you know? Yeah, yeah. This is Michelle, in a parallel universe, you know, before she had a whole film about it. And it is really great. And just the bond between her and Michael. is super interesting. It's really very good. What do you reckon? I reckon we should watch the thing So the other thing is it's 37 minutes long. So there's something going wrong at this point in the season, I think. like episodes. No, it's just not, they don't have the right amount of material and this episode never coheres around a single thing. And so it is just incremental advances in various plots culminating in what is a pretty spectacular cliffhanger though. Well, I don't I don't think anybody would ever. I've said to you before about, uh, the sort of the, uh, Kurtzman Trek, and that is like, who's ever going to remember vaulting ambition? as an individual. because it is just inching pulse along, you know? Yeah, yeah. Whereas I think the other 3 are memorable. Well, we'll remember incidents one, the set pieces. We'll remember twists. But do you remember many individual episodes of series one of Discovery? No, but I mean, I've just watched Severance and I don't remember many individual episodes from that either because that's how TV is now, you know, that TV... of this kind. I will never forget masks, particularly not when I have lower decks around to remind me of them. What is it? Nasaka, is it? What's he called? No, I think she was called Mookie or something. He has salmon jewel. It's so good So great. I'd love to get you earlier. Lower text, dude, never read, whilst it's looking over his shoulder, the ridiculous of 90s tracks. Exactly. Or just trek generally, really. Can I make one very quick point, though, before we go in? Because I read this on memory alpha. And this is the 1st point. where the entirety. I mean, everybody in the writer's room was female. Oh, wow. They make a point of pointing that out. These women all looked at each other in this room and had a moment of this is the 1st time ever where a group of women are determining the future of Star Trek. That's fantastic. pretty incredible, isn't it? It's amazing. Wow. Shame, the episode is so dreary. Yeah, it is a bit. All right, I'm going to keep an eye out on the writing credits and all of those executive producers, I think there's 16 in the opening credits. We could count. One as long as Yeste's Enterprise, though, you know. No, that's true. All right. I will count us in five, four, three, two, one, and we're off. Oh, yeah. And we've got the dot repainting the Enterprise. He's Tilly in her fabulous Terran Empire outfit. I was watching the show. Preparation for this. I was like, bloody hell, there's a lot going on, isn't there? People are dying, Cleons having sex. Like it's all happening. I really like that because we already know that they can appear as other races. I mean, that happens in TOS, doesn't it? But here having it be so visceral, like that it's being tortured you know, that it's soaring him up and remaking him and it's something's kind of terrifying. I'm not sure I ever need to certainly not having sex, though, I'm honest. You could have just told me about that. Yeah, that's it. Or not even told you about that. Like, um, like, the sheer doesn't want to hear about it. Yeah, don't you bow before your emperor? Emperor. You bet I do. We all would, would we? Yeah. So do you remember what the Klingons look like in Star Trek Beyond? No. They had no hair and they had like different ridgy kind of heads and stuff. So they don't look like the Discovery Klingons, but both Discovery and Star Trek beyond going the same direction. And I think the direction is trying to make them not look like members of a heavy metal band. Well, I remember there was this big hoo-ha about, you know, given the Klingon was a different loop, but 90s trek did that after the original series. They're just reinterpreting every time, you know, the franchise skips forward 20 years. Yeah, they look different in the in Star Trek of the motionless picture than they ever look anywhere else. And if you've got the ability to do more sophisticated makeup. Well, you're not going to go, well, no, we're going to make it look like those 90s one with a massive hair, you know? Yeah. They were too cuddly, I think. And this is a series where the Klingons are dangerous and really alien and so they need to be much more terrifying. an alien. I'll say a little bit dull. Sorry. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, they do have very sort of Star Trek moments. But I do like that very, very 1st big speech of Takuvma's in Discovery, episode one, I think, is pretty great. Can I ask you, whenever we go to the mirror universe, in whatever iteration of Star Trek, you're watching, everyone's just dressed much more sexier and everyone just looks better in the mirror universe. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I love this line too. So this is a talk between, so this is the closest the episode comes to being about something. So we start the episode with this scene between Michael and Lawker and the 2 of them are working together. They're talking about the other Giorgio, the one who's, and we're in, you see him react to the light that came in through the glass so he reestablish his sensitivity to light. And then the end of the episode is about his identity. And so the episode is trying to be about something, but it doesn't actually manage it. It doesn't cohere around any single idea. But that's an attempt. They top and tail it with locker scenes. I just say the special effect shot of the shuttle going into that. Hugely impressive shit looked amazing. Yeah, very badly like it leapt out of a cinema. It looked terrific. Yeah, well, that that ship looks incredible in the last mirror universe. um episode. It's so good. So, cousin Michelle's a special guest star at this point. Does she remain especially? Diane Maldar, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. She used to be our special guest star for an entire season. Well, I guess Michelle Yeoh comes from movies and is sort of slumming it in TV and so... I know. No, because I think she knew, once she'd got her hands on this character, she's always going to be the best character in the room. She was always going to get the best lives. You know? Do you remember that dinner scene we watched where everyone was getting on? Then she just was like, she was enjoying it. Yeah, she... Or staring it off terribly. She's marvellous. It's I can't remember what the titles are like now. different from this? Is it different technology? No, no, it looks the same. It's the same sort of blueprint thing, but we see different things. And like we see the DM, the DMA, for instance. I nearly said DMV. We see the GMA and the... When they brought Star Trek back. Brian Fuller was the person they chose. Not because he's a terrible writer, but just because he was heavily involved in latter 90s trek. And you would have thought they would have just gone with a brand new vision. Do you think in series one of discovery, they just tried to throw everything in? I feel like, I feel like, you know, it was full of fall to the brim too, you know, too much, too much instant, too many shocks. Lots happening. Yeah. It's the 1st time anything like this has been attempted in Star Trek because even like maybe the beginning of series 6 of Deep Space 9 and maybe series 3 actually of Enterprise is the closest. Is it? Season long. Yeah, a season-long thing. And so here we've got like 15, 16 episodes. This is longer than the seasons two, three, and four. the longest season. I don't know. The idea that there are twists and mysteries, like the vogue twist the ash is vogue twist. And remember, you know, like we were looking at the IMDb page to see who was playing Volk and they had, you know, and the opening credits gave a different name. Um, and I think it was still a sort of Arabic name. It gave a different name. Oh, I actually don't know. I don't know his ethnicity where there is. anyway. But, you know, like it gave it gave a name and so, but that person had no other credits and people were kind of going, he's Ash, you know, like people were wondering whether Ash was vogue. And then there was the mystery of lawker, wasn't there? And I think there was a little bit of that in 90s trade. Oh, what's up with Eddington? What's up with Castie Yates? But not to this extent, because how we look at television now, it's completely, we study it and look for these shots. But I mean, sort of like as a season. I don't think there's ever going to be another season of Star Trek like this. where narratively it was so different from what came before, you know, they're throwing in new races, tonally, they're they're putting in sort of explicit sex and swearing. And violence, really gory in places, even in this episode. But they retract some of this later on. It's what they know. It's never quite visceral, I don't think. later on. No. And so it's kind of unique, isn't it? It was a period of experimentation. They don't always go right. No. Boy, did they try a lot? Well, one of the ways that I, one of the reasons I think that I reacted so well to it was that it was visually stunning. Like that 1st episode where Michael goes out onto that Klingon statue beacon thing. Like it just looked incredible in a way that Star Trek just didn't outside the movies and even movies. You have somewhat exposed to me as we've done this thing, comparing to the 90s in that they didn't really do weird a lot in 90s, you know, or if they did, it was very lame. Whereas we just had him there going through some bizarre sort of alien jungle. Because scenes where he's talking to himself in his head, we never saw anything like that before, did we? No, and in fact, where we are now. So this is Mirror, Paul, and our Paul interacting inside the Mycelial Network, which is being cheaply realised in this scene as just... on Port Discovery. you know, in the way that Deep Space 9 did sort of routinely as well, where you would have, you know people subconscious being represented by the station. That's right. Just with a few tentacles coming out of the wall. Exactly. Yeah. I think I was reading the fellow that plays Stamitz. It was his idea to where the Mirror Universe costume and it's originally he was wearing the two, but he's no less differentiating Italy. So we know who's talking from 12nd to the next. Oh, here we go. I think the really, really striking thing. This is so simple, is the yellow light. You know, Did you say that? She was Regina Andor. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She's queen of and like all of those major, you know, federation powers, she's in control of all of them. And we saw that last episode, but this is them meeting properly for the 1st time, isn't it? It is, and like, compare Michelle Yeo's performance here, who is utterly assured of her position to Tilly, who is in a position of power in the last episode. And very uncertain of herself. I don't get for 12nd that Emperor Giorgio doubts her position here and that everybody will bend to her will. And so we think in this scene that she's being asked to choose a kelpien who will presumably kind of wait on her. Yeah. So I think in the previous episode, and I may be misremembering in one of the 2 previous episodes, we had a scene where she was in the turbo lift with one of her crewmates from the Shenzhou who didn't survive the Battle of the Binary Stars in her universe, but he's still alive in the mirror universe. and she's forced to kill him in order to defend herself. And it's hugely visceral and really, really visibly upsetting. Oh, there we go. brilliant. Take that now. Jason. Your life will be long, Gabriel. I mean, you know, something about it is a back. Oh, that's so camp, isn't it? I think you can get one, you know, on lovehoney.com. But the fact that she's, you know, she's choosing a sleigh is bad enough. Because you think, oh, she's too, someone to be subservient. No, it's far darker than that. Yeah, yeah. But but just seeing her confronted in this visceral way with these people who are just simply evil, um, you know, and that they were her friends and this was her mentor, you know, her and Philippa really loved one another, I mean, they were. You know, they were the captain and the 1st officer of the Shanzhou for 7 years or something, you know, all 7 seasons of Star Trek, Shenzhou, you know, they were there together. But you tell me now, how would this relationship play out if we were in 90s track in the very universe? They'd be fucking back. They would absolutely be lesbian lovers. And that's what's so great, I think, is too. That they love one another and giving villains, you know, villains who are just fighting one another all the time, that's kind of boring, but villains that genuinely love one another or that genuinely experience love. That's really good and that's complex and interesting. It's kind of doing that, Rossy Davis thing that he did in the 2nd series of Dogs Who, where you had Jackie Tarlow from this universe and Pete from that universe and they kind of look, like, fill the gaps in each other's lives. Well, Georgia here genuinely loved the alternative Burnham, and Burnham there genuinely loved the other Giorgio. And so it's a really interesting relationship to see play out after this when we go back into because they do fulfil something in each other's lives, even though Georgia can't quite help a bit total bitch all the time. Now, you, we are talking over how pretty Ash is when he's lying distressed on that hospital bear. I have to be distressed. No, but when he's lying back there and he just says, Saru, help me. And, you know, this incredible violence has been done to him. Oh, here we are. But what do you think about this sort of getting us close to these characters and then revealing actually they were this personal along? Is that cheating the audience? Uh, no, I think the, I think the, it's a genuine mystery, and Lorke is Lorke. He's just a terrible person. Here we go. And this is the moment where Michael realises that she's eating the Kelpie she chose and she has to continue doing it after she's discovered it because she can't let on. This is my favourite thing because she acts... She is visibly distressed. She's trying to keep a poker face at the same time. Yeah, and just how nearly impossible that is, because you're eating something and it's super visceral and stuff. You know, you can't just sort of blandly, but she has to. Very briefly sort of gax. And then you just hear the loudest swallow I've ever heard. Yeah, so everyone's doing upside down with something. Awesome. But this is just a series of dialogue series, isn't it? Like, and that's unusual for Curs for Trek. There is usually a bit of pace, you know, and a bit of action. Yeah, I mean, we get a pretty great scene when Michael gets taken to the throne room to be executed, which I think is pretty good. And I do think the climax is stunningly great. I never, it never fails to shock me, the difference in series one to series four. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's almost a little bit... I mean, she's not terrible here, but there's something a bit more sort of Vulcan and robotic about her, which is almost a bad, isn't it, in that full season, where she's loosened up a little bit. Well, she's had a year kind of living by herself, you know, between season 2 and 3 and that's when she comes back a little bit more chilled, I think. Yeah, I know they're not going down the lesbian route. You're talking to me now, there are people out there are going to get excited about this scene where she's holding a knife to her throat, talking very whispering in her ear. And this, the mother thing, like, we didn't know this, and look at Michael tearing up as well. Now she's being taken out to executed. lighting behind Giorgio there. All the lights in the space. The practical lighting is amazing. Yeah, yeah, it's like an interesting looking. It's like a deep space 9 set in a way, isn't it? you know where there's lots of odd geometric shapes and interesting practical lighting. I mean, it's always a feast for the eyes. Yeah, yeah, I just feel like I don't have to watch it anymore. Like, they're just going to spend, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, oh, yes, and that's the other thing too. You see, I think that we know probably that law cut is from the Mirror Universe, when he tricks, um, Paul into making that final jump. Yeah, which lands them there. Yeah. I think we know where we're going as well. I don't think there's any ambiguity about what's happened in that moment. Do they reveal it straight away? Yeah, this is the very universe. Or just, oh, no, where I remember. Where are we? I think. I think I remember being spoiled when I was scrolling through Twitter in a cab in Bangkok on a holiday because there was no way I could watch it. There was no way I could watch it. I was really kind of pissed off and I should have been pissed off with myself because, you know, obviously people were going to talk about it and spoil it. All right. So this scene here is so great because this is where Michael just comes out to her, isn't it? Where Michael just says, actually, we've never met. Yeah, yeah. And then she's intrigued by it. isn't she? What's this Burnham like? But she, she knows about the mirror universe, but like from our point of view, no, from their point of view, we're the mirror universe. How about that? So she knows about the mirror universe and our universe. And so she doesn't want it to get out. Is that why she kills everyone or it's just because it's an incredible, fabulous set piece? I mean, I want to say one. I believe the latter. Yeah, yeah. You know, we said about the female, right? Okay, true. So wait a second. This is Lord Ealing. And so in the Terran Federation Mirror Universe, Ealing, the London Borough of Ealing, is an important centre of power, and he's the lord of it. So how about that? E League in London. I've just decided that. That's canon. But he is literally Lord Ealing, and he does, he's the only one who survives this scene because he's going to kill them all in a sec. It is worth pointing out that we have 2 incredible women spearheading these days. Coming from a female, right? I mean, things have just changed so much, aren't they? Look at this. Look at this. It slows down so we can watch this thing go through all of their heads and like all of this sort of cartoon blood. Lord Ealing who is so gay. Take a look at him. He's so cute, but clearly very gay indeed. In his gold armour. Oh, he's gorgeous. Hold on one of those flying discs. I think they were coming quite happy. So good. So good. So she's just killed everyone except Lord Ealing. And Lord Ealing, she said, I'll give you, I don't know, I'll give you Chiswick or something with you as well. If you clean all this shit up. So presumably he's off to get a mop and bucket or something. I've got to throw all the brains off the floor. What's going on here? So this is Lorell, who is the person who turned Voke into ash, and we see Lorell and Voke interacting in the early episodes of this season, and they've captured her and she's now our consulting psychopath in the in the bridge. So Saru is appealing to her to help Vogue. Do you know what? I feel like she's probably giving an amazing and committed performance. I could really care less about those scenes, you know? Yeah, I think that some of those scenes early on drag. I think she's really good though. Does she get a bigger role on Twitter? Go forward. She does, she does, she continues to be in it. They end up together, don't they? Yeah, yeah, I think so. Yeah. Yeah. The Mayo is extraordinary. Yeah, isn't it? She's been burned, obviously. But we see all of those scenes, which, you know, leave Ash as someone who is having sort of flashbacks to being tortured. And what's been happening is he's been literally sort of sawn up and put together in these sort of really brutal ways. And so it's not just sort of sticking some latex ears on and heading down off to Romulus or whatever. Interesting to hear you mentioned the word latex, you know. I do think there is something a little bit latexy about Saru. And that bizarre mouth he's got. Yeah, I really, I think it works really well, doesn't it? No, it was... Doc Jones is the best... is an incredible actor. He involved in this show, you know, like... Yeah, he's unbelievable guy. Man, have you seen him doing the social media side of it? He sells this show. I'm telling you. amazing. Just before he was about to start the new series. He'd had all his air shaved off and he took a picture on Instagram. I'm like, right, I'm ready. I'm ready to go. Stick the thing on. I mean, bless us. Oh, this is probably their show you'll be most known for, looking like that. Yeah, well, I mean, he's done other things. He did play the fish in shape of water. Oh okay. He's the lead gentleman in harsh in Buffy. I think he's probably the most consistently good character in this show, like. Yeah, and there's a true lily. Despite the fact, whether he's, what is he at this point? Science officer. Yeah, yeah. And then he's captain. And then he becomes captain and then he's just sort of Mr. Saru who's sort of sort of consulting captain when Michael becomes the actual captain. And like Michael's character has to be sort of substantially retooled between series 2 and three. I think a lot of them are, you know. Alexis as well as we go along. Yeah, a lot of his sort of rough edges are softened up. But through, I think, comes pretty well formed. Yeah. And he's a pretty incredible captain. Like that 3rd season where he's captain of the ship. He's so good. He's so good in it. But I think Stamets was initially... I found, I was quite resistant to how, well, how much of an arsehole he was. But you fast forward to that episode we watched in series 4 where they're having that dialogue about the ship's computer. I think by that point they're right into his strengths and then some. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, this seems lovely. I really like this thing. Well, then when he says he had somewhat favourite moment of the day. He's not talking about them brushing their teeth to get really talking about them discussing their dates. He talks about the morning. Do you know what I mean? Like the morning where they get up and just hang around and brush their teeth and get ready for the day and that's what he likes. And it only gets mentioned because we see it before. And there is a scene earlier on where Paul is brushing his teeth and then he turns away from the mirror, but his reflection doesn't turn away and it's something to do with the effects of time, you know, because he's doing this, but it also kind of hints at the mirror universe being a thing too. Those 2 characters, Colbert, Stomach. They're both introduced. But not as a couple, are they? And then it just becomes apparent that they're a couple. They're a couple. Don't they have a moment professionally where there are odds? And then I think that's how they do it. And then they have a room seated their quarters together where you realise they're a couple. They're a couple. That's really nice. It's so, you know, goodness me. Like we've, I've been pretty negative about the outcast in Star Trek the Next Generation and... Yeah, yeah. And we were critical of stigma. And, you know, stuff like that. I forgot about that already. But it's so nice to just be seen in a show and not be an issue to be dealt with by the show. Well, that's the point we're making as well because in 90s straight. You kind of had to be an evil alternative lesbian, didn't you? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's right. Or if they were going to do an episode like rejoined. then it was a massive taboo. I know it wasn't about same-sex couples, but that was the point they were making, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, like having 2 very beautiful women kiss on television is possibly the least daring way that you can get some same-sex action happening on a show. But that does show how far we come because now you could do that and there would be no response. There were channels refusing to show rejoin. When it airs far out. Yeah, yeah. And even that was so tame, so timid. Um, yeah. I will have to close the set off and everything. Yeah, it was a big deal. So we have, we, things have moved on and for the best time, you know, and representation now is in Star Trek. I can't believe people object to it. Oh, yeah, but I mean, that's happening everywhere. There's a big shit fight on Twitter at the moment because the new teaser for the little mermaid came out and she's black. I know. What about her voice? Holy crap. Did you see? There was what? I know snow last night. You see the little gal? Uh, who... Yeah, it was somewhat of the same colour. And she was so excited. gorgeous. Well, it's the story that Whoopi Goldberg tells, you know, you know, running in out of the room and telling your mother that there's a black woman on TV. And she ain't no maid. exactly. But we just had a scene with 2 women of colour speaking. You know, like a scene that passes the Bechdel Testin has no white people in it. And, you know, like that's just what Star Trek does now and what it should have been doing in the 90s. Look how gross and terrifying that is. Yeah, yeah. Like really visceral. Like... It's almost a shame, you know. like that they did step back a little bit, isn't it? Yeah. Like, if you're not using it, in series too, suddenly, it's all about a big, you know, space anomaly or someone from the huge shells, where like, hey, you know. And all this sort of nastiness and earthiness is made a little safer. Yeah. But I suppose that's what you do, isn't it? That's what you do when you come back as you test them. We recalibrate. Yeah. You have characters say the word fuck, you know? Yeah. So this handsome man here. Which one they're both free handsome? Oh, they are, but the handsome Terran guy who was clearly known to Captain Locker before, and this is really terrifically good, and this is the scene that will eventually turn into the big climactic scene at the end of the... Did nor could kill his sister? Is that right? No, he fucked his sister. I think. But I don't know. It's not entirely clear. Because what he says when he comes out of the agoniser, he says yes, you know, I, because he's saying, say her name, say her name and Gabriel's refusing to do it as if he'd forgotten. And then he comes out of a thing and says her name was Ava, but someone better came along or something. It's so good. And so he may have let her die. So this, this, I think, is where we know for certain that he's from the mirror universe, because this is someone from here, who was a crew member, whom he recognises. He recognises the other guy, the handsome black guy there. Yeah, there were so many women. It's good to be captain. See, it's definitely him. I love how they kill this guy too. This is super gory as well. But, you know, we had people, we had Tori from Battlesore, like Galactica being ripped up by the Tardigrade earlier in the season. She deserves it. So she did. She was horrible. Watch this guy scream and then explode. Burn, scream. and then burn everywhere. Yeah, I'm not even sure they do that. No, I don't think they would. It is all a bit sombre though this, isn't it? It's all a bit hour and talky. And I remember at this point in the episode, I was like, is this ever, is this going to start picking up soon, like? Well, it's, in fact, the only really fun silly bits are in the Paul plot, and that's the plot where, which has him really properly realising that his husband's dead. You know, like it's still not that much fun. Oh, I love how he speaks in Cleon here, and he's using his voc voice because he's got a higher, more tanner voice when he's vogue and he starts using that when he speaks to Michael after he's activated. I have a relationship episode. Yeah. The pair of them. But obviously they just decided in the show, well, we don't, this isn't where we wanted to go with these two. With um, with Morrell and... Oh, no, no, Michael's... Yeah, no, Michael has a real hard time coming to terms with him and accepting him after it's revealed who he is. That's how weepy season, isn't it? She has a lot. Yeah, yeah, yeah. A lot of times, yeah, terms with Spock and their relationship and a lot of things in that season. Mother, isn't it as well? Mother's back, yeah, who was... No, I know we said yes, but series 2 of Discovery is someone else. Remember, she was sort of tortured and then killed. Oh, that's awful. Tortured and killed by the Klingons, you know, and then it turns out it wasn't that. I mean, at least like they, they, they kill our couple, but at least they are giving it a little bit of emotion, you know, and consequence. Yeah. It could have just been a cheap shock. And so is it, I can't even remember what the deal is. Look, I think it was a bit of a cheap shock, but they did pay it. Yeah, they do pay it. They still have him do, you know, this episode at least. And, and Kulba's not here or easy. He is in the mycelial network in a sense because Paul remembers him or something. And then he's brought back. it takes a long time. And that's why I kind of think that series 2 is kind of like the apology tour for series one. I think some of the choices they made in series one. They shouldn't have walked back on. Oh, okay. But like the swearing, I want them saying fuck on. I just want that. No, I think this was definitely. But this was a bad mistake. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they walk it back. I was just watching them then, how the looks they were giving each other how they were of each other. It's very natural, isn't it? It doesn't feel like 2 actors have just come together, you know this season. I think they may have known one another before this where they both in rent or something? Like, I'm not sure. I'm not sure. Both on Grindr. I don't know. Yeah, that's right. But both actors are gay as well, which I think is a good thing to do too. Do you agree with the Rusty Davies assertion that only gay actors should play gay characters? No, but I can understand why you would choose uh, for something important to, you, you might choose to only hire gay people to play gay actors, to play gay people. And I also think that, you know, like if gay characters are being written, and if gay actors have difficulty getting cast, then I think that it's wrong to give those roles to straight people, I think, you know. But I don't think it's a problem. I've seen fantastic performances by straight men playing gay characters. Even in Love Victor, for instance, a couple of the boys who are gay in that, I think, are very good, despite the fact they're straight, and I don't think that's a problem. Conversely, I've seen gay actors give incredible performances. They're straight characters, such as Russell Poley. Yeah. So they kiss there and now this plot is over with? Is that right? So now, yeah, but so this, though, is on the current, this is, so yeah, that's that plot over with, but he will obviously be back, I think, till he's still back. Okay, automatically about hairs, hairs straight. Let's have a scene with your show. In the very universe. can't remember. I don't so that would be amazing. Man, man, the actress who makes silly. She just owns herself, didn't she? She's incredible. So good. Yeah, she really is great. Oh, look at this, though. Like the forest has gone big. Yeah. Is that the mice? I saw that before. Well, no, that's their spore supplies, but they've obviously been affected by the mycelial network by that red thing that we saw creeping through the corridors. stuff like it's real, you know. Well, that's the other thing too, that he's just mental. Like the mycelial network is such a strange thing. And, you know, there were people kind of losing their shit about it at the time because it was so unscientific in a way that they sort of somehow felt warp drive, wasn't it? And beaming technology. Yeah, yeah, that's right. That's true, but I'm sorry. There is this bizarre thing in any science fiction franchise where one magical science fiction concept is more plausible than another. The moon's an egg. I can accept a time travelling phone box. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, this, you know, it's a subspace realm full of mushrooms. I don't know. I feel the need to point out there are only 4 minutes left to go and we are in no way approaching a climax this episode. Oh, no, I think, well, so they engineer a climax out of this, the interchange between Gabriel and that other guy. And I think it ends in a pretty interesting way. But yes, like we said at the start. doesn't really go anywhere. Some people have had the same issue with Picard series 2, that sort of in the 2nd half of the season. There was just a lot of inching along of plots and nothing really being resolved. Yeah, I suppose it's what approach you prefer, maybe, isn't it? Well, I think that good serialisation is what Discovery Series 4 does at the end, where each episode follows logically from the previous one, but each has its own identity and its own art. Oh, I think something's achieved. Yeah, I think last idea is not that really well as well. Yeah, yeah, but it's the beginning of series 6 sort of thing. You go for place to place. Even in that last 10 episode arc of DS9, I think that some of that... It is literally just moving from A to B. So this is Michael discovering that Gabriel is from the Mirror Universe, because everyone in the Mirror Universe reacts to light the way that Gabriel does and Gabriel had said that it was because of something that happened to him on the Buran. And so now he's pulling some crap in order to get himself out of the agoniser booth and now we're interacting between those 2 scenes and Michael's discovery that Gabriel is from the mirror universe. I mean, I think at this point... Look at this, look at this. And then he just, he, uh, one of those things, he defibrillates the guy's head and like, it's... Yeah. Although I was from thinking, you know, keep up burning. It a bit obvious. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that's, you know, the, oh, and this, Ava, this is so good. And look at him twitching it so gross. And then the very final shot. He's so, like, really bad. Look at this. Look at this. He just smashes the guy's head like he literally just like stamps his head. I think there's no feedback on the ground. Like law car is now going to exit the series. How can we redeem him? No. There's Lord Ealing in the credits there. Yeah, yeah. You think, you know what? There were there were fun individual moments in that. Yeah, but... Yeah. And, you know, like we rolled, this would, I think, have to be the weakest episode of the season, probably. Yeah, I still think that's the phenomena, you know, and I know you Megan, disagree on. I think the finale is good. I think the finale is properly good and it does something and goes somewhere. It's an episode about something where this one isn't. We've had this discussion, haven't we? Where, you know, you're all for, you know, going for the ethics of the federation, whereas I'm all for abandoning them and doing terrible things. They should have bombed that Klingon home world, I'm telling you. No, but I mean, but it's the political message, you know, it's the political thing that it's saying, you know, that we need to be sticking to our values. We need to be doing the right thing and that the right thing is love and inclusion and diversity and honour and, you know, and it gets cheesy, that final. So it is a little bit overall. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, like, they've earned it, I think, by that point. And a lot of people were wondering. I think the audio's at large. They needed to hear that at the end of this season. There was to be some very strange things with Starfre. That's right Yeah, yeah. And people were saying it's not like Star Trek it doesn't adhere to the ideals and, you know, that was essentially the point. People still say that, you know. Even after series 2 with the Enterprise of Pike and Spock. And all of that. I think that Kurtzman Trek doesn't want to do what 90s Trek does which is in places. It just says Star Trek ideals are naive and that they don't survive contact with real proper evil or real proper peril. And that's what those deep space. 9 episodes do. I think they always return to it, but I think it's examined and sometimes they say, do you know what? We've got to make the wrong call to get this done. And I know you don't agree with that. I love it. No, because. the situations are made up. They, you know, they don't have to make them be in a situation where they have to make that call. Yeah, so you decide not to put them in the situation where they don't have to make the call. Or you say, look, yes, we're going to adhere to these ideals because they're important, but they're going to be costly tours for some reason. And that's an interesting thing to say. I prefer it when they say that these ideals actually can be a little bit dangerous. liking something like Valiant, where you have those horrible kids that think they're the best and the best and think they can do anything, and then they come up against something that they literally cannot defeat, and they all end up dead, and I, it's dark as hell. But I think actually, yeah, that's an interesting point to make. Yeah, but I always wonder whether the valiant so much about Starfleet ideals as it is about critiquing just that ridiculous thing that happens on Star Trek all the time where everyone says that their crew is the best in the league. you know, like every bloody ship, the Cerritos, you know, is the best of the Kelly class tubes. You know, they're all kind of like that and that's what that's making fun of. Well, you know, the only... They can have their cake and eat it because eventually they'll go back to their regular university. they take Giorgio with them. She's saying, right, do all these terrible things that we do in the Middle Universe. you know, that'll get you out of this situation and they reject that. But actually, we've just had 4 episodes in the mirror universe where we can just... We've got to enjoy all the walls and stay, fuck the ethics and let's have fun. Because the interesting thing is that the real pleasure of the Mirror Universe, particularly in Deep Sace 9, is just getting our regular actors to do something fun to let their hair down and have fun and be silly and do silly things. But that's actually not really that much of a feature of this. This, you know, Giorgio's dead. Yeah, given similar-ish performance is, oh, man. Yeah, but most of the people here are our crew, like the whole discovery is in this universe. It's not like mirror, mirror, where some people from the transporter pad end up in basically a mirror universe version of the enterprise, the entire ships here, most of our crew are all here. And so most of the people that we see, it's just Laura and Giorgio isn't it? and Stammets and that's about it. And, you know, Lorke has been a mirror universe version of himself all along. Oh, yeah, yeah. Like, I really, really like this 1st season of Discovery a lot. And I think maybe series 4 is better, but I think what's fun about this season is just seeing where they didn't go, seeing some things that Star Trek seems unlikely to try again. Yeah. I, I, I, I don't really like it very much. But I do think it's bold. And I like the fact that it's doing stuff that they don't do anywhere else. It has its unique identity. and it's worth watching for that alone I think. And actually, I think you're right. I think in the 2nd series. It's a little less interesting because it's a little safer. Yeah. Well, I also think this one is very political in a way that series 2 walks back. And then series 3 just kind of wholeheartedly goes, yes, you know this is a post-federation world where we've got to teach people about the federation. It's all about federation ethics, but in series one is about that but in a much more interesting way. I think, and it does say things. As I said, at the end of last week's episode. It's about, you know, America being at war for 20 years after 9 11. And what do we turn into what happens when we kind of abandon our liberal or democratic ideas? And so you get this sort of crazed hallucinatory Trump world Mirror Universe, America. And that's what this is about. Oh, the scary thing is, is we go to this mirror universe, which is Trump World, and that's where we were heading. It's absolutely fucking terrifying. All right, it's the end of the episode and so we are here to choose what we're going to be watching next week. It was my go last week, which means it's your go now, Joe. So what series are we choosing from? Before I press the button, do you realise how many separate tabs there are here? To choose from? Is there 12, 13, 13? 13 arms of the Star Trek. And because I'm feeling lazy. I'm gonna include them all. You know, I actually had to add the 13th of them because when we started this podcast, Strange New Worlds wasn't a thing yet. So the Randomiser usually had 12, but I've added one. Well, I desperate to press his butt. May I? Your random Star Trek Voyager episode is, oh, no. Season 7. Episodes 25 and 26, end game. You have to do it. It's a finale. You have to do it. No, that's a series for now. We just have to do it. I know we've just done a arable as well. Yeah, yeah, we've done a big 2 part of just last week, but I just think there's no avoiding it if we've rolled that. have to do it. Have we done a series opener? Oh, yeah, well, we did Stranger Worlds. Because we cheated. Of course we did. Let's do it. I think we have to do it I mean, We could watch this and yeah, it could revolutionise what we think about Star Trek Voyager. Well, actually... They were heading to this random climax all along. You know? I mean, we did just do a series one. Yeah, which was really good. And this is all about getting on, to be fair, just via every cliche in the TNG book. Yeah, I actually don't remember it all that well and it's possible I've only ever seen it once. I'm not sure we've ever done the 1st press of the bar. We have. We have. Oh, okay. I think we do it. Nathan, saddle up because we're going to watch Endgame. Brilliant. You've been listening to untitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford and Nathan Bottomley. We're online at Untitled Star Trek Project.com where you can find links to our Twitter, Facebook, and YouTube channel. Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceron, and the theme was composed by Cameron Lamb. This episode was recorded on the 17th of September 2022 and released on the 23rd of September. We'll see you next time for Star Trek Voyager. End game. Okay. Okay. Should we do it? Mm hmm. Did you, we had quite a long, um, Did you hear the long, uh, tag for the last episode? No, I am halfway through Shadows and Simples. So what I'm doing... I get the train back forth. I'm listening. Yeah, that's right. I mustn't use it longer than that because my train train is only 15 minutes. Yeah. Yeah, so it's funny. I think that, you know, with a big podcast that's 2 hours long that I don't mind that, like, I have a few podcasts that do that all the time. And it says, well, I'm going to just listen to it in bits. It going to be fine. But the big, long tag is us talking about vaulting ambition and smart style. Like afterwards. So it's it's a thing. It's a little bit like an FDE tag where it's kind of like I'm sick of editing and this bit's good and I don't know what to do with it so I'm going to bung it after the closing credits and only lightly editing. Oh, no, exactly. I told her which one it was, if it was St. John or accident, where you went. That's the tack.