Image in the Sand
Shadows and Symbols

Hey, Joe. Hi there. So, we are doing a two-parter tonight, and it's the series 7 opener of Deep Space 9. And it's called Image in the Sand and Shadows and Symbols in the Deep Space 9 tradition of having completely separate titles for their 2 part episodes. I'm terribly excited to do this, you know, because it's we did in the Pale Moonlight, which touched on the Dominion war art, but we haven't really been like properly entrenched in the sort of latter DS9 mythology. And this is well in there, isn't it? Yeah, 0 yeah. Although, despite that, there is just a fair amount of kind of hang time and seeing life unfold on the station and stuff like that. It's not all kind of business. And there are some sort of hilariously camp scenes just with the villains, which is a pretty great feature of this version of Star Trek, I think. Romulans, Nathan. They're so predictably treacherous, aren't they? So great. I mean, we see, we see sort of Damar and his alcoholism and all of that stuff. That's very important. And Gul Ducant, who has been possessed by a par wraith or something incredibly ridiculous. Although he's not in this 2 part, I remember. You watched... What did I watch? Ah, that's right. series 6 finale, and he's definitely in that. Yeah. Well, I did my homework, didn't I? And so I did watch Tears of the Prophets before launching into this. I've seen this before, of course, and I remember I very much remember this change happening as the show went out, the recasting and things like that. And that's one of the things that excites me about TV, is that you have to accommodate the real world sometimes and it makes you do things that you might not have otherwise done. And so Terry didn't want to come back for the final year because she was doing Becca. I don't, no, that's, that's absolutely argued in the DS9 documentary by Terry Farrell, who did want to do series 7. Oh, and when their contracts came up for renewal. So they all signed up for 6 years. All she wanted to do was sit down and have a conversation with the producers about her contract and her salary and nobody would give her the time. And she asked and she asked and they were like, well, you're going to do it. Like, just assume she were going to do it. And in the end she was like, all right, well, I'm not going to do it then. And then her mind was made up and then they had plenty of time for her. And yeah, I just think the whole thing was handled really quite badly. And technically she probably should have been in this last series. And the series might have felt more complete if she had. But actually, I think it's more unique that she isn't because introducing a new character in series 7. And I think it's a character that flourishes throughout Sirius 7 as well to the point where you really like her by the end of the year. Well, I just think that's a little bit unique. Yeah, and it's not something that anyone planned. It's just a thing that ended up happening to them. Now, I understand that you have some prepared remarks on the subject of the Dominion War, which I may have been cruel about in a past episode. I took great exception when you said that you were not keen on the Dominion war. No, no, I didn't take exception because obviously we're always going to have a difference of opinion, but I thought to myself okay, you're not so keen on this approach. Why do I like it so much? Because you're right. This isn't very Star Trek to have a sustained conflict like this. It's not really what Gene Roddenbury had in mind when he 1st created Star Trek. Although there is that thing with the Klingons in the original series that runs throughout the entire thing. So I prepared a small statement. I thought, no, it's just, no, essentially, it's just some reasons as to why I like the Dominion war so much. So prepare to rebuilt. Okay. If you wish, okay. Okay. So it's because it's serious long form storytelling that gives the serious structure, momentum, and a reason to pop back beyond just loving the characters. Which I think is true. Because it allows to show the chance to explore the consequences of conflict and there's a lot of that in here in this story we're about to do. Things like loss, PTSD, work-based trauma, how to live your life in a time of war, exploring like massive acts of heroism and defeat and tiny moments of victory and humanity throughout those last couple of seasons as well. The very small moments of victory that they get are sometimes like the best moments. I really like how it sort of examines, I'm going to say the rottenberry ideal. Let's just say the Star Trek ideal. It tries to uphold it, and sometimes it absolutely eviscerates it in episodes like in the Pale Moonlight and valiant and things like that. And I really like the fact that all the regulars are examined in interesting ways within the conflict. They're all given a ton of development because of the war that's going on. I also think it highlights the lighter episodes even more. So things like that are being bada bang, take me out to the hollow suite, they really shine bright in the cards. I think episodes like magnificent Ferengi. They're proper comedy episodes, but because they're sort of surrounded by a lot of darkness, they shine all the brighter. Now this you'll agree with. It's spearheaded by memorable, camp, and scary characters like Ducat, Weyun, Demar, the female shapeshifter, Garak, Kai Wyn, all played by great actors, all given great lines, and what I really like is it gives us like a really intense focus on the villains in a way that no other Star Trek show has done before or since. So we're always going behind the lines and we're always seeing the conflict from their point of view as well. And no other Star Trek show does that over a sustained period of time. Well, I think you're erasing those excellent scenes with all the Zindi in one room in... Hey, sorry. I forgot the 4 year Beaumar arc in Voyager as well. That's right. I love those scenes. Look, I think I agree with most of that. And particularly... I'm not done yet. Oh okay. All right. Keep going, man. Okay, well, I just put 4 words for this one. Space battles and their call. Because I really don't know. I know they do look a bit like cartoons now, but at the time they were the most exciting things. Sacrificed of Angels, Tears of the Prophets, once more onto the breach. like the space battles nose were just so exciting. Yeah. Okay, here's where you may disagree with me. because it leans into and celebrates soap opera, which is another one of DS9's unique strengths. So Cisco gets married, Dax dies, Kira and Odo have a romance, Nog loses his leg, wind goes completely power mad, Bashir courts edgery, wharf greaves. It's all soap, basically. and it's tied into the war, and it means there's always something happening, and we're always feeling something, even though there's big sweeping events going on. We're always the emotion is there. And I think that's important as well. And finally, my last reason, sorry, I was a little bit of a random. No, no, no, go on. It grabs hold of 4 years of character and world building and it ties it into a massive arc that it builds upon. It uses that mythology. It investigates all that previous work and in a way that sort of allows it to surprise and delight and frustrate sometimes and experiment too. It's not always perfect. I don't think the Dominion War, but it's massively ambitious. It's forward thinking, often satisfying, and the show is a lot more richer for it being there. That's my reasons. So, for me, I think the long form storytelling is hugely, hugely important, and it does make each season cohere. And it's something that perhaps was inevitable in Deep Space 9, if they were ever going to take the premise series, stationary location. Yeah. Yeah. And and so you weren't just sort of solving a space problem of the week that arises in a different place because you're just here. So I think that's really good and, you know, that's how Star Trek is now to lesser or greater degree. Certainly discovery tells a single story within a season. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that works really well. And the soap opera thing is absolutely an important thing about this sort of fander. Like, I'm not the 1st person to observe that science fiction fandom and soap opera fandom are really, really similar. And, you know, they're the sort of shows. The building blocks are the same, aren't they? the same. And just sort of backstory and knowledge of characters and knowledge of how they behave and stuff. And, you know, there's memory alpha, but there's wikis for, you know, soap operas as well. Oh, yeah, like wickings for neighbours and things like that. Yeah, absolutely, there are. And so it is very similar. And there's that adorable scene in Queer as folk, isn't there where Vince, the main character who's a Doctor Who fan meets a young woman who's into Coronation Street and the shows are being put up against one another at some point, like in the 1980s and they reflect on how silly and bad that was because the same sort of people watch that sort of show. Yeah. Well, Rusty Davis absolutely got that and turned Doctor Who into a massive soap opera knee. Yeah, yeah, with great success. Like, it was one of the best things about his time on the show. And so I love the soap opera stuff in Star Trek. interesting about that list. I just read out, is you can't point any of those things at practically any of the rest of 90s Trek. That's how unique this show was. Yeah, 0 yeah, absolutely. And who do you think it is? Ira Bear and... Ira Bear, Ronald D Moore. I think Michael Pillar to an extent. He's there. He is kind of guiding gently, certainly at the beginning as well. And it was his idea of, you know, for the stationary location. Let's have the aliens come to us. Let's have a situation where we can't warp away at the end and we've got to deal with the consequences. You know, that was that was basically his idea. But I mean, it looked like it was just going to be, we sit there while the wormhole, the convenient wormhole kind of baths a series of aliens at us every week, and we sort of get that a little bit early on, you know. Um, but they abandon that and do something much more interesting. The wormhole is still important when we start the episode that we're about to watch. It's closed, isn't it? Yeah, it is. Yeah, this one What's interesting about DS9 not conforming is that its lack of success at least compared to TNG is absolutely why it was given creative free reign. Because they were, I think they essentially went, well, no one's really watching it. We're gonna do 7 years. In the latter half of this, just go, man, do what you want to do. I think I think the execs just gave up because Ira Bear was like well, we're just going to keep pushing this. We're gonna keep experimenting. Well, I mean, but I think it is like, is it the best regarded? Like certainly in my circles, it's the best regarded show of the 1990s, the best regarded Star Trek. You know, honestly, if you look at when polls are down about all the Star Trek shows, DS9 always ranks high and it very often ranks as people's favourites, a lot of podcasts out there, it's people's favourites, and that's why they're doing Star Trek podcasts, Trek geeks and people like that. It's a massively popular and I can see why and it sticks out a bit like a sore thumb, doesn't it, in the 90s? Yeah. I mean, it still commits a lot of the sins that 90s trek commits but... Well, at least it's trying. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, like we did season seven, episode one of The Next Generation, which was descent part two. Now we're doing it. Okay. Now we're doing the corresponding one in deep space and high. And the same part is so boring. It's what you expect of Star Trek, it's the Borg, it's evil data you know, it's Beverly Crusher on the ship. I mean, you quite like that bit. And this season seven, episode one of DS9, against what people will probably think. It's the quietest episode you can imagine. It's a load of character scenes. You know, and it eventually builds somewhere, I'm not going to say massively exciting, but it builds up some pace and momentum in the 2nd episode. But it's not probably what people have come to expect from episode one of a show that's doing things like Wear the Warrior at the beginning of the season. Yeah. Yeah, I like this better than Way of the Warrior, for sure. Like, I think Way the Warrior is great. And I remember it in context, but I like this 2 part are better. And it is partly that it just works like a soap opera. Like with individual plots. There's a bunch of about 4 plots going on at one time, each of which gets advanced slightly and then we switch to the next plot. Brilliantly in like the last 20 minutes of the 2nd episode. It's like it literally hops from one to one to one to one to one to one like that, you know. And the pace almost comes not from the scenes themselves, but just the succession of scenes, you know? Yeah. It's really nicely plotted this. Yeah, I think it's really fun. And it gives us time to do things that we would and otherwise see. Like I love spending time at Ben's father's diner, for instance. Oh, he's from Peters, isn't he? Yeah, yeah. So we were just talking about this at school today. So Brock Peters, of course, is in a couple of the Star Trek films and he also plays Tom in to kill a Mockingbird. Yes, yeah, you were telling me. Yeah, you know, he's an incredible actor and he really, it is one of those moments where you kind of think, oh, holy crap, we've got Brock Peters on this on our silly show. It's pretty exciting. Like, we've got what a shore. We've got Louise Fletcher. Marco Lemo, Jeffrey Coombs, like, how did we get this lucky? It's pretty amazing, isn't it? Well, shall we shall we head in? I think we probably should. I am ready here. I'll count us in. Five, four, three, two, one, and we're off. Okay, so I've got a last time on Deep Space nine. Do have that? No, I do, I do. Yeah. We're going to invade Cardassia. G. Roddenbury would be appalled. Yeah, so why are we doing that? I can't even remember, but there's some very good reason. A vital stab in the Chintaka system or something like that. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, here we go. Oh, the car's been taken over by a power rave. Dax is dead. I mean, it's all going on in the pre tiles. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. it's a real thing I do like how he apologises to her after he leaves. Like I did. appreciated that. Because, you know, like we still have to live with that character you know, like because he's going to be in so much of it and just have him murder. Like having him murder Dax just, that's not great. I've no idea. I said to you, are they managed to make it so melodramatic and arbitrary at the same time? It's basically an accident, but at the same time, he's got red contact lenses and mad special effects coming out of his hands. Like, the worst thing about it is her and Worf are planning to have a baby and you kind of think, oh, Jesus Christ. No, come on, that scene. It's a private matter. We're thinking about having... Yeah, that's really funny and she's super girly. really terrific. It was a private matter, exactly. really good. Oh, look at this. Or Avery Brooks talking to a coffin. Yeah. Well, is it a coffin or is it a torpedo? Aren't they torpedo? Yeah, it should be shot into space, obviously. Yeah. Yeah, I never buy that. Who's talking to a dead body? seems crazy. Do you know the bit I don't like is when she goes, oh, baby, would have been so beautiful.. That's awesome though. I love that sort of cheese. That's terrific. I'm a big fan. Okay, and now the continuation. So now we have religious maniacs here on the promenade. May I say that this is picked up in the episode covenant in series seven, where we go to Empoc Nor, which is being run by the cult of the power, right? So again, it's setting stuff up for the future. Yeah, okay. Yeah, yeah. So it's not just a random scene with me. And we discussed them. I think I think Odo should consider turning the hose on them frankly, but like whatever. Well, he rested a Vedic for fundraising and yeah, he's going to let these people. That's right. they're super evil I'm calling him Odo exposition in the scene. In fact, we do spend, it is, it's really bad, isn't it? So these who are now telling one another. Odo's Odo's explaining to Kira what they've been undergoing together for the last 3 months, which is kind of hilarious. And there is a fair amount of that. Yeah, good. But I do like the exchange where he says about the kiss and he says it changed my life. That's lovely. Yeah. Just to remind her. Now, look, I know you're not so keen on Kira's season 7 look. I like it a lot. And do you know why? I just like the fact that she's just embracing being a bit more feminine. She's loosening up a bit, you know? She did have very American lady hair before. And so VC is a bit of improvement. shoulder pads. like a dynasty character. It's funny though, she's the only one in the universe wearing that particular uniform. Like she was wearing the same uniform as Odo before, but now they've given us something that looks a little bit more flattering I think. I would like to point out that the Nile visitor insisted on being promoted this season. I've been I've been in the same rank. I've done my time for 6 years. Colonel. If only Garak Wang could have been a strong, eh? Yeah, he should have been, Lieutenant. Lieutenant Wong. So, yeah, that's delightful, isn't it? Colonel Kira, it is slightly weird because it's almost like her 1st name is major, you know, major Kira, like and the major and stuff. So it is kind of slightly weird having it be the kernel. I think you get used to it after a bit. But you know what it means? It means that all the scenes on the station in this are spearheaded and this whole two-parter, I'll speed headed by non federation characters and I really love that. you know, that's how much we've come to love these characters because that would kind of be unthinkable in the original series, wasn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, absolutely. And so here we are on the Defiant for some more exposition where we discover what we've been doing. We, you know, the invasion of Cardassia has stopped while our casualties mount, he explained. Can I ask you a question? Are we supposed to get caught up on the last 3 months and if they're not going to tell us? Well, yeah, but it is it's pretty leaden, isn't it? That's okay. Like, I don't care. They should do one of those Star Trek Scrolls. in the last 3 months. Well, I actually like that we've been given 3 months to breathe. And in a way, it's a kind of cheat because we don't really get to see anyone's immediate reaction to Dax's death apart from what Cisco giving the speech to the torpedo in the opening credits thing. Yeah, but all of this, you know, like, I don't know. There's a word I'm probably going to say quite a lot. And I'm saying it because all other night-ish trek shows just ignore it and that's consequences. Everything in this story is a consequence of something that's happened before. Wharf is upset because Dax has died. Cisco is on earth because Dax has died. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Here and Odo are fighting the Romulans because Cisco brought them into the war in the Palm Moonlight. Like all of it. It's great. We do come back. Um, we do come back here. in, is it the, to date the most recent episode of Star Trek Lower Decks, we actually come back to Cisco's. Marvellous. And it's the same establishing shot from outside. And there's delicious Ketrasell white hot sauce as well. Oh, I want to try it. Oh, I love spicy food. Could I just say, though, how refreshing these sets are. I just love these very kind of natural. They are very brown now. And you know what? Every Brooks looks very cool at the piano, you know. Yeah, yeah. And like he's wearing his pyjamas, which is kind of delightful. Oh my god, look. It might be a vision outside. Yeah, we will actually go there in a minute, so that's... I mean, we'll talk about it, but it is that same rock where they film everything in America. That same desert, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Oh, do you know the woman who played San Francisco, right? Deborah Lacy. She was so delighted when she saw this special effect because she'd never been anything with special effects before. And they had to do like a clay model of her face in order to make this special crack. Yeah, cracks open. Quite nice, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. She's so striking. Look how beautiful she is. goodness Image in the sand. It's quiet. Yeah, that's quite nice. A nice opening, isn't it? So I had imagined just the way they talk about the planet Tyree. I had imagined that that was something that we've heard of before. No, it has many moons. you know. We've been to a few of them. Yeah, yeah. It just seems kind of mythic. It's sort of beautiful, I think. You know what they're doing, though? They are very much leaning into, uh, and I know there's been a lot of mythology around Beijor, IndiaS9, but it does feel very Babylon 5 that. Oh, okay. I've never heard of that show. So it's hard to tell. It's that sort of quasi-religious mythology that basically Babylon 5 did it 1st and then DS9, by pure coincidence, did the same thing. Yeah. But I mean, it is baked into the premise. Like he's a religious figure. And so having him receive visions and stuff from the prophets which we discover is actually what's happening. But I love the very nice, the gentle mystery of it as well. Like it's not grandstanding, isn't it? him just trying to figure out what's going on. And then we get some fabulous soap opera scenes where he's like you know, dad. I need to know who she is. It's so hilarious. and it's like, it's your real mum. It's so it's so great. And it's one of those times where I think they've kind of looked back. You know how we sort of make this up as they've gone along? Yeah, yeah. It's not been pre-planned, like Babylon 5, and I think that's all for the better, because it means they can just keep adding. But they kind of look back and go, well, can we make sense of the profits having to choose Cisco, for him having to be the emissary. Oh, okay, this whole thing was set up from when he was born in the 1st place. It kind of makes sense. Well, yeah. But, I mean, it doesn't matter in a way, and it does give us fun soap opera things to happen. Are we getting Nicole? There she is. There's her 1st credit. Oh, and San Edgary Dax? I think she's a lieutenant, you know, by the end of the season. Poor Harry Kim. He's just decorative, Harry Kim. Oh, he's pretty, isn't he? His hair falls over his face. Oh, there's my 2 people look fixing the pile. I love those guys. They're awesome. And there's a 3rd guy bringing them some lunch. That's, that's, that's Col meanie. Space walking. Is it right? He's brought the pizzas. I've got to start saying column, you know. I keep saying coal. It's cold. Column, yeah. Sorry, Colin, that doesn't. I've got to stop saying Nana, because it's Nana. I mean, you know what? I watch these fucking credits. I don't know who's the space characters. They have weird names, people on Star Trek. It was one of the things I watched series 3 of the Orville over the weekend, and everyone in it seems to have very normal names which I found really off putting, but there you go. Yeah, but some the actors' names are weirder than the bloody characters. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that's what, yeah, exactly, Voyager, whether it's trio of Roberts, of course. Yeah, everyone's called Bobby, aren't they, on that stupid show? Okay. Now, look, you be respectful, all right? Because the guy who plays Admiral Ross's passed on. He's really not very good. He's really not great. Is that bad? I mean, I don't think he's passable, but he's a bit wooden. He is a bit. And like, who wants a white guy? It is a lot. So we've gotten used to seeing him, right? He's in a lot of episodes. But it was nice to have a sort of semi-regular admiral rather than just having admiral of the week. No, but it makes sense too. Presumably this is his kind of patch, you know, his jurisdiction and so he, you know, but, you know, give me... I mean, it could have been the Cheev. Yeah, but I wouldn't have been scared of her. Yeah, it's getting a no one. Yeah, I'd be sad. There could have been an interesting power dynamic there, you know. He's not scared of Admiral Ross, for God's sake. His name's Bill. I cannot stress to you how much I fucking loved Kira in this 2 parts. I mean, I love Kira anyway. But how she underplays some lives that could have been overplayed and makes them all the cooler for it. It's great. She is pretty good. Now we're going to get. Oh, now here we are back on Cardassia and that's... Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's nice. Completely static, but they're moving the camera at least. Yeah, no, it's awesome. And so we get these guys just bitching at one another in this plot the entire time, which is just tremendous. I'm a huge one. Do you know what they're setting up here? Because in 4 episodes of time, we get Treachery Faith and the Great River. Oh, yeah. That's where the new way defects and goes over to Odo. Oh, okay. There's a great scene where it's exposition again, because the whole thing's basically exposition. It's a fabulous exposition. And it goes, yes, my predecessor's deaf in a transporter accident and then he looks at DeMar. This is basically setting up that. That's so great. That Wayne pisses him off. But then, of course, that leads to the massive plot twist later in the season where he, the whole Cardassian people defect. Yeah, that's right. Yeah I remember that. So I think I think DeMar is actually pretty damn good. And I think partly because Mark Alameo is so kind of showy and camp and over the top. And he downplays it, but I think he's really quite good. And we get to see him out of makeup in this episode as well. I think the point is... is that Dukat is so in control, even when he's not. Whereas DeMar is totally out of his depth in this role. And I think Casey Biggs never pretends otherwise. you know, that's why he's always drinking and we've got a woman on his arm, you know, like he's doing anything to make himself feel more comfortable, you know, controlling his entire people, but whilst they're being slaughtered because they're essentially being used as foot soldiers and they're, and by the end of the season, what is it, like 200000000 or something? Carl, that feels a dead. Right, okay. Okay. He basically walks them into a slaughterhouse. Right. Yeah. And here we go, right? Here's our mystery. We identicate our identicate reassembling of Sarah Cisco. Is it, Sarah? Some people do this, you know, with magazine cuttings, you know they make their ideal man with various parts. That sounds really super creepy. There must be an app for it. Look at his app. I want away then. This big, big, bad iPad. Massive, isn't it? It's like a fucking easel, wouldn't it? Yeah, that's iPad Pro. Can I just say a massive thumbs up for the inside outside foliage going on here? Because I love... I love trees inside, you know? Oh, wow, she's very pretty, isn't she? San Francisco. And that's not Brock Peters in that photo either. That's unknown, unknown actor. playing young. I did look it up. These scenes, though. Let's not stress the importance of these scenes with 3 great black actors, just commanding this episode, essentially. like, It shouldn't be bold, but it kind of was at the time. Yeah, no, they're great. And Brock Peters, holy crap, he's good. Don't you just, I believe their relationships. 100%. Oh, here we go, right. Okay, so over Jets, yeah. Although this takes forever, but I love it when it beats up. Cool, uh, like, fix bar. Yeah, it's kind of depressing. I think it's really a bit tragic. Because I was getting to a point where I'm going, oh, this song's dreary. They're going to go on forever and then he just stands up and punches the table. I'm like, Ben boy, he's listening to me. He cheaply smashes things off camera, though, on the whole. James Darren. I don't know, cut back to it. It's completely, there's glass smashed everywhere. James Darren has a wonderful way, you know, of of playing the role with a bit of nuance, which could have been a very two-dimensional role. I love it here in a minute where he's like trying to distract him in various ways because he knows he's going to be hurt if he listens to Jazia's favourite song. Yeah, sing the song. It's your die. I like it right there. He is really good. Do you remember the time tunnel? I remember it was in it, but I don't think I've ever seen it. So it's so boring. It's like a terrible science fiction show with absolutely no sense of humour at all where they go to just sort of various places that they have stock footage of or old 20th century fox films lying around that they can use and he was in it. Actually, that's not all he's done, though, apart from this. Don't know. You said that he was reluctant to do this because he's seen things until you got the script and then you said, get my Asian on the phone. Right. Yeah. And that was his way, right? Yeah, and you know, I will always point out when somebody's divisive on DSI and people, some people love Fit Fontaine and other people say this is where the show jump the shark. No, he's great. Our mutual friend, Siheart, refuses to watch any episode with him in it. He doesn't think Star Trek should be fun, that's all. No, it's, but it is that thing as all the other characters are real and he's just a simulation in an entertainment program. And you kind of think, no, they're all simulations in an entertainment program. That's the point. He's as real as any of the others And the songs, all the songs they use are there to punctuate a moment. It's, I've got you under my skin in his way. is the moment when Kira realises, fuck me, I've fallen in love with you. She looks at him in that song. she realises, yeah, he is under her skin. Oh, sorry, that sounds a bit filthy. This is important because this is wolf grieving and he's listening to music that Jazia loved. Bada bing bada bang, the best is yet to come is telling us we're about to have a 10 episode, amazing arc, you know, saddle up. Oh, yeah. And then, you know, the big tear jerker moment as well in the finale is in his bar. I can't even think about it too much. I'll tear up. What song was that? The way you look tonight. Yeah, yeah, it's beautiful. It's so good. Just a perfect moment. A perfect way of ending it. There's only one bit, you know, that I don't like with it, Fontaine and that is in the emperor's new cloak when it comes along. punk vic, and he's got 2 guns in the alternative universe, and he's saying things like, you know, I'm going to tick those scumbags on. It's really terrible. That might be a little bit out of Jimmy Darren's sort of remit. I can't always get it right. Oh, here's Senator Cretak. So Senator Cretak is played by the woman who played the head evil lesbian in Planet, the evil lesbians. The Outcast, which is in series five, series five, I think of Star Trek, the Next Generation. I've gone that completely. I forgot. Well, because she's got a very, very memorable voice. Yeah. And I think she's terrific. I think she's really good in this role because she's very sort of no nonsense. And the 2 of them actually end up like a credible relationship. Don't you think that Kira and her are together? I don't think it's, yeah, they do. And yeah, they share that lovely scene where they have the, the she has the jump just stick and and she says, oh, I never knew Bajoras could be so efficient and, you know, these are high. is high praise from a Romulan. But obviously, I don't think it's her that's making the choices in this. I think the Romulan high command is saying, well, we're going to put the weapons on Turner. And she's just the one that's got to facilitate it. And she's a robbery then, so she'll do it. Yeah. But again, that's setting up for inter honour. Oh, I can't say it. You can say it for me. Well, it, it's a misquoted amongst... Interama and him sealant leges. Oh, that was really hot, well done. It's your exploitation from Cicero. If you hadn't got that right, I'll have been surprising. Yeah, yeah, that's that's a great episode later on in the season where she's basically set up as a Romulan patsy because section 31 and the Romulans are working hand in hand and she, the light, she's thrown off as like the one that's behind it all and her career goes down the pan. So she's a semi-regular. episode. Oh, okay. No, she's in 3 episodes. But at the beginning of that episode, her and Kira having a debriefing after all that goes on in this, and it's so frosty between them, it's wonderful. So now we're back in the bar. Oh, okay, is this the scene where Cisco confronts his father about... Who's the one? I think the photo. This is one of those very rare moments where Avery Brooks just goes over a cliff. over the top here. And Brox Peters, looks like he thinks that Abra Brooke's going to hit. He's got a look in his eye of absolute terror. Yeah, he seems frail, doesn't doesn't he? Like he's Brock Peters is like he, I don't know. He just seems he does seem like a frail old man in this. Which kind of works out. I'm never quite certain why he goes off to the desert because he doesn't contribute anything to that plot, but I thought he was just there. That's it. He's seen Brock Peters. Like, come on. He's very Frau in those scenes because they're forcing him to walk over hill and dale. in probably you know 40 degrees heat. Yeah, yeah, it's probably just, you know, down the road. Oh yeah, come on. Hey. Hey, lay off. And look how scared it looks. That's terrible. Don't hit me. Yeah, that's awful. What a prick. But what's lovely is, like, obviously, he's now Joseph exposition in a minute because he's going to recount the entire story of how he met Sarah, but it's Brock Peters and he delivers it in such a gentle way. Oh, just I could just sit there and listen to him say anything. So June of 31. Do we know what year this is? That's like 40 years ago or something. Like I don't know. What, 22, 31, isn't it? 23rd. 23rd. Oh, 23, 24th century. Oh, yeah, I should know that. Yeah, so 2370s, I think this is said. I should know the century we were in. I keep typing it up on the website, but I can't ever remember, but I think it's like the 2370s or something like that. I don't even mind the, where he says, you know, you were so close to your mama. We lied. And I actually, I buy that. Why would you, you know, for a one year old say, well, this ain't your mum, you know? You might get around to it. Like, he's like, how old is he now? You might think that it was worth mentioning at some point. Maybe it's one of those things you keep putting off. I'll do it this year. I think it's a thing that people do in soap operas. Do you know what I mean? Like, I think that, like, rather than real life. I've seen some pretty absurd things happen amongst my friendship group, you know? where they discover they have an extra mother or something like that. Who's a god? But do you know, okay, I'm going to tell you why Ira Bear wrote this now. And it's not just to have an excuse as to why the Prophets contacted him in the 1st place is because he thought, and I don't think unjustly, that hardcore Star Trek fans, you know, those mental, fabulous Americans. They consider Star Trek captains like gods, like they put them up on a massive pedestal and he said, you know what? Let's just go for it. Let's make him a god, you know. which is why at the end of the season. He only ever had one way he was going and that was he was going to go and join the profits and are sent to a higher plane. Yeah. Yeah. It's a bit cuckoo. But, you know, it's different. Well, there is a thing that this show does. It does it with like rewriting their backstory because it's already done it with um, with Sid with um, Bashir. Uh, you know, where it turns out he's not just a smart doctor. He's like a mutant, genetically engineered person and that's. Or as Garak says, you're not genetically engineered. You're a Vulcan. It is such a weirdo. Like, I think that's a dumb thing. I don't know why they do it. and they, what happens, they get 2 stories out of it, basically. Oh, no, thanks, Leaning Square more than you think. Like he uses it to, and there's some good gags around it as well. I think it's just a nice way for us to maybe take him a little more seriously than we were before. Yeah, but I mean, I like the idea that you can just be a person. Like, you don't have to be some, like, they go a bit heavy on the backstory and so they're adding more backstory here to Cisco. He's not just a federational officer, but he's, you know, like some being, you know, a demigod or something. What I like about it, though, is how it's plotted throughout the series, like initially he was very resistant to be the emissary. And in the 1st 3 series, I don't want to do the ceremony. I'm a bit embarrassed by all of this, then somewhere in a session when he gets the role taken off him, that other emissary comes through the... And then he wants to bring in car systems and all of this and he's like, why the hell did I ever give this up? Like, I was keeping this planet in balance. And then he embraces it and then comes series 6. He's saying things like, I'm going to build a house on Bajor. where I live now. That's where my home is. And then here he finds out about his mother. And so sort of the spread of the series is him sort of embracing the whole sort of the Jura mythology and it's part of him and now it actually is part of him. Literally, yeah. Yeah. I don't know if it always works, but I think it's a very brave stab at doing something different. I did think it was a strange thing and they seem to leave it alone for a long period of time. They seem to not know quite what to do with it. Um, but it works. And it is that thing, like, I don't know how Ira Bear works, but you know, Ronald D. Moore talked quite a lot about Battlestar Galactica, which was basically his show. And you know that he is keen to find out things about the characters from the characters, you know, finds out things that they do or things that work for them and then do them. And it's kind of like, well, he's a part of this character's kind of bio that we haven't really gone into. So let's do something with it. And I like that, you know, I think that's interesting. The only time they dropped the ball is before Brock Peters was cast in series 4, uh, we all thought Cisco's father was dead because in a scene in season 2, the alternate, he has a scene about his dad and he goes, yes, and I knew that there was nothing we could do to save him. Oh, he was dead. Oh, wow. And I just forgot about that. Oh, wow. You know, they're going to kill off Wayoon and then just go, oh well, he's a clone. They literally are making this up. That, I mean, that, I think, is absolutely genius because it is like, there's Wayoon. It turns out he's a really fantastically great character. He's not the 1st what are those things called? blanking. water. Vorta. He is not the 1st vorta that we've seen because we see one in the Jem'adar, the female vorta in the Jem'adar. And he's so superb and they kill him at the end. And then they think to themselves, oh, fuck, that was great. Why did we kill him? He's so great. Oh, I know they're clones. And then that becomes the story and it fits perfectly. And the mileage they get out of that clone situation. It's it's also, I don't think they have an idea going in about the Dominion. You know, that there's basically 3 races of people that make up the Dominion. That's where they stole. The structure of the 3 tiers of the hierarchy and sort of the details about them, but nothing too. They sort of explored it as they went along. Yeah, yeah. And it's brilliant. And you can see in series 3 of Enterprise where they kind of go well, we can't just have, you know, the Kazon or some bullshit thing. We have to have a complicated, you know, group of people with relationships between them and they come up with the stupid different zindi species. I'm not as harsh on that as you are. But it doesn't have anywhere near the complexity of this. No, but they're trying to do that, aren't they? It's kind of like they've learned, you know, the Dominion's interesting. Let's do something like that. Yeah. And, you know, props for having a go. It has no idea it was good, but, you know, at least they tried. Do you know? I love this scene, right? where O'Brien turns up because one is literal hang time. He's just going there to hang out and have a drink with him. But also because I'm both people in that situation. I would be the person that would go around someone's house with a drink if they'd lost somebody and I'm also the person that would be like, oh, well, you fuck off when someone turns up in my house with a drink. I'm not sure where my sympathies lie in that scene, you know. Yeah. Oh, his core gets some great bits in this 2 part, don't he? Yeah, I mean, that really takes off in the in the 2nd part, but that's it's these 3, isn't it? In the in this plot. So this is this plot coming together. Yeah, the odd trio. Yeah, so we're, we're quite, we're 15 minutes to the, near the end of the, of the 1st episode and this is really kicking off. I guess it's wharf. Does O'Brien come along in the ship? I can't remember. Yeah, yeah. He's the one that shows him how to detonate the sun. It does lead me to the conclusion that every Klingon ship needs at least one Ferengi on it, though, because he provides all the laughs. so much fun. Wow, they're so serious, the Klingons, aren't they? You know? Yeah, no, they're ridiculous. I'm the only one who's sick of dark for breakfast. G for lunch. I love that. The thing about how Jadzia Neverator enemies heart in battle. and Quark just sort of nod sage and he goes, yeah, well, she was squeamish. Like, it's just gene gag, but it's so adorable. And so I love this plot. And I think the reason is, like, we haven't, we haven't got a replacement for Jedzia yet, have we? She comes in at the very end of the episode. Is that the cliffhanger? Yes, fabulous. It's so good. isn't it? And, um, that's pretty great. So we're still mourning her and we've got to get her into Stovocor by doing, you know, defeating an enemy in her honour. And I think that's really great. Oh, you were saying, weren't you, to me, that how they both are still dealing with the fallout of losing Jadzia and simultaneously dealing with her replacement within the same episode. That's really nice, isn't it? Well, I think I think it works really well because there is a danger in introducing Ezri, which is that we just forget about Jedzia and she just looks different now. How could we ever forget about Jazia? No, that's right. That's right. And so having them properly mourn Jadzia. having Jensia's death really land and be something that that still matters 3 months later, um, and having Ezri along and having Ezri so different from Jadzia in all sorts of ways. I think they handle it really well. I want to talk about that, but I'll do it in the 2nd episode when she comes. turns up because I want to talk about, they talk about the audition process of memory alpha. and what they were going for and what they landed on and they're 2 very different things. Right, right. I can imagine. Oh, here we go, back. We even like the scenes in this alley. It's just a nice sort of gentle setting. I like the steam coming out and the lighting. It's just, it's not 90s trek, is it? That's what I like about it. I mean, it is, it's very soap opera-ish in that it, you know, it's out, sort of in the studio, but outdoors. And it's how the previous season ended, isn't it? It's him scrubbing clams, like cleaning the clams out in the back a running joke, you know. Because in that two-parter in series 4 where Jake's like, oh grandpa, have you taken your medicine and he's going, don't you start with me, all right? I've got 3 bags of clams out there that need cleaning. And actually, it's kind of, I know it seems a bit quick, though that we lost to the wormhole wind tears, the profits, and this is obviously all leading up to... It coming back at the end of the shadows and symbols. But it's not done quick. It's done in like stages, isn't it? So it feels quite natural. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I, you know, like, it made a great cliffhanger, but we don't need to kind of keep it, the closure of the wormhole. Like it made the, it made it look like the show was over. Like that collapses the possibility of the show. That bit where, you know, all the power ray energy comes out to cut, he's screaming his head off, yeah. And then the wormhole vanishes and he starts laughing his head off. It's the closest we're ever going to get in Star Trek 2, Emperor Palpatine in series in episode three, when he's going mad with the electricity, you know? It's melodrama on the highest level. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's crazy, isn't it? And he just goes for it. He doesn't hold back a bit. He's really true. A lamo. Oh, he's brilliant. But you know, I'm actually pleased that they pulled back a bit from a lame o and gave Casey Biggs all the opportunities they did in series 7 because he had a single line in his 1st episode right? And he was, I don't know if he was a prestige actor, but they basically said, look, we're going to do big things with you. I know you're literally just a bit part in this. And I think he was like, one line, you know, I've got it. I've come in at 4 o'clock in the morning, but it's fucking later. For one light. Man, oh, man, did they deliver though? Yeah, yeah, he's really good. And he does look excellent out of the makeup. He's a good looking man. Oh, he's very handsome. Oh, I love those things. Oh, here we go. So we're getting rumblings now and all is not well on Turner. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So this is the other plot. So is that four? So we've got Stovacor, we've got Derner, we've got Sarah and we have what else is happening? I think that's it, isn't it? Yeah, it's the three. Yeah, after three. Yeah. And like, you know how we said it in Voyager, that, you know, we're lucky if an episode lands on all of our favourite characters, Jane Way, 7, the doctor, were quite lucky on this show because they're all our favourite characters. They're all pretty great, aren't they? They're all getting something to do. Yeah. And I do like, like, they do genuinely take advantage of the 2 part format here because it's not hurried, is it? And I feel like everyone's given their moments to shine, although this special effect where Martoc comes into the holo suite now is really dreadful. It's really fake. That is so bad. Defend yourself, what? He's pretty good as well Well, I said to you before, didn't I, the sort of bromance that they have, and the romance he has with Jazzy it makes Wolf in DSI, I think. Yeah, so Worf does 4 years of this and 7 years of Star Trek. He's done more Star Trek than literally anyone else in front of the camera. Um, And it is great that they find things for him to do here. I mean, part of his role is to be wrong, right? So when Warf Declare something confidently, he's generally wrong. And that is what happens next episode, isn't it? And he actually does learn and develop, and it's actually quite, it is, there's a very touching moment, I think, when he talks about his relationship with Jansia, and then talks about their relationship with her as well, which... Nathan, you and me know a little bit about that, didn't we? We've both got our partners and we definitely have our own relationship too. Yeah, yeah. It's interesting. Like I really like it. Yeah. Oh my god, this scene. But because this episode is so gentle. This scene now where... It does come as a shock. It's so shocking. And I'm so unused to seeing blood in 90s trek and he's wearing a white apron. And so when that knife goes in and that blood goes everywhere. It's really quite visceral, isn't it? It's quite shocking. And this is very leisurely, this scene, and he's come here to get away from Bajor, hasn't he? And he's found himself unable to because 1st there's the vision of Sarah and then there's this nutcase here. I said this little kid. I don't know, I thought that was the Aaron Eisenberg when I 1st saw it. Oh yeah, okay. Did you know what? Do you remember at the beginning of this scene where him and Jake are laughing and stuff, man, the chemistry is just so great. I just like, they just make me smile when they're together. They're wonderful, aren't they? Such a good choice. And again, no other Starfleet captain, no other Star Trek captain has had, anything resembling a relationship like that. And like I gave you, you know, Oh, ow, that really hurt. Ooh. Look, it goes down to the bloody coming out free. Wow. Oh. I even like how Jake runs out and just... bag of crap clams that he's just whacked that guy with, I hope so. I would really hurt. What would you do if someone you loved had been stabbed in the gut like that? But, you know, like it's the 24th century and he'll be fine quite soon, you know, literally the next scene. Yeah, he's fine, a regenerator over him, he'll be fine. is this all about? Well, this horse coming past. Awesome carriage. Yeah, well, it's... Retro 20th century travel. Well, isn't it supposed to sell it as New Orleans? Like, it's kind of like, yes, it's, you know, the Paramount back lot. or whatever. Because it looks more fashionable. It would look better if it had like a hover thing coming back, you know? Yeah, no. They've got to sell it. I wanna see that now. Galloping in Scotland. That'd be awesome. So I think that, so wait, is Tyree a Moon of Bajor? No. Yes, no. Yeah. I think so. I just thought it was a planet. I am pretty happy. I would be happy if we didn't have the par raise because I think they're stupid. They are the most cartoon thing in DS9 by far. So ridiculous. Do you remember the one, the one where Jake and Kira both get inhabited by Paro and have a fire on the Promenade? And they're just fighting beams at each other. These Japanese movies would astonishing special effects and their faults and, you know, all of this got on. Instead, it's just these 2 little sort of limp special events. Yeah, coming out of their stomachs or something. Naturally. There's a few consoles exploding as well. They always do. You know what, right? Oh, this episode is all set up, isn't it? Because they're saying, look, we're going to go on this dangerous mission. And Cisco's saying, on the mission yet. I'm going to go to Tyree. and Cisco, Kira goes, and I'm going to stop the rubbing. So nothing has happened, Jeff. Yeah, yeah, but I'm actually liking it. I think that giving us a gentle run-up and just getting us reacquainted with the status quo. Like, I think, you know, we made fun of the exposition scenes and they were cheesy as hell. They deserved it. But we do, you know, that's all fun stuff to catch up on. It's been 3 months for us as well since the show was last on. And so it is nice to just establish the rhythm of the show and get to see all of our favourites back again. It's the hang time thing. I'm absolutely happy to do it. Can I say that in series one and two of DS9, O'Brien could not bear to be around Bashir. They are now the bestest of buds. And this scene where he's like, well, I'm going on the mission and Bashir's going, well, that's depressing. Now I'm going on the mission. And then Cork's like, well, no, we don't know about Cork, because he goes, oh, Miles, I'm touched, and Cork goes, you're both touched. I love that. That's actually a properly funny line, isn't it? It just, it hinges on that use of the word touch, which is not particularly common, so it's not a super obvious comeback, and it is a kind of cute thing. I would love one of those beers. I am just sitting there sitting here thirsty. It's so grim. What is wrong with you? Oh my god. Can I can I do the Kira quote in this scene? I love it so much. And she goes, either you remove those weapons. Oh, we will. Great. No, cool. Honestly. But you can imagine, like, otherwise Patrick Stewart doing that live. It would be well, Hammy, wouldn't it? Yeah, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Either you're about those weapons, send us a Cretack, or I will you know, it'd be... And you know what? Do you know, I just think there's something very hot about, oh, I'm going to sound really sexist now. Two women going at each other like this. It's great. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think the 2 of them are really good, but they're both really strong. you know, strong performers. I think they're great together. And when they start to appreciate one another. I really like that too. I think it's good. I, uh, well, to show the difference between 90s Trek and Kurtzman Trek. Obviously, you have a conflict here between 2 women and they just basically talk to each other on screens. Come, Kursman, Treck, we watch an episode where Burnham and that camp woman was kicking the shit out of each other for about 20 minutes. that's right. Things have changed Nathan. things have changed. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Oh, now look, this is just another quick cut back to Cardassia. But it has that wonderful line from Wei Yun, doesn't it, about the Romulans? So what they're just reacting to what happened in the previous scene. So they've discovered just like Kira has discovered that there's 7000 plasma torpedoes on this hospital Romulans. This is it. I think this is a mission statement as well. This scene is saying we are going to spend a lot of time behind the lines this season. We are gonna see their reactions to a lot of this stuff. It is a bit of an exposition scene and a gag. Oh, here comes the cliffhanger. Yeah. So exciting. Avery Brook's going to go at the piano and be a bit, you know, Gaga like he is in the captain's. I'm glad that they all go together and I'm glad they take Brock Peters with them. And this is actually a really good thing that they do here, isn't it? Where they let Jake and Ben meet Dax and get to know and accept. Look at her. Well, it means an after image where everybody is trying to adjust to her. He's treating her as if she's always been there. Yeah, and it's quite nice. And it's kind of like, well, how does she get back to them? Do you know what I mean? Like, why doesn't she go off and lead a different life like she's supposed to do, like in rejoined or whatever? She is like a beautiful porcelain doll. Isn't she gorgeous? So pretty. She's adorable. And the least... It's a haircut as well. It's the haircut, the little elephant haircut. The lisp, I think, is beyond adorable. I just think she's so sweet. And that's little half smile. It's, of course she comes back to where Ben is. She's lost. She's, you know, disoriented. She doesn't quite understand what's happened to her. And so naturally, she goes back to her best friend and that's why she ends up back on our show for the year because it would have been so easy for her to do something else. The reason why some people object to characters, there are a couple of episodes later in the season. You remember the one where she goes home? It's basically a murder sheet. terrible. And there's one which I really like, but it's very strange field of fire with giraffe. It's like a procedural murder mystery, which I think is very good but it's so disconnected from anything. And I think people are like, well, why are we wasting our time with this? We've got like this big war thing to wrap up. I don't think they realise sort of 10 episodes were coming where they were going to devote, you know, a massive long after that. But by the end of the season. She gets scenes like that one with Worf, where she says to him Klingon Empire is dying. I think it deserves to die. You're talking about this, you know, insane piratical society, you know, where you kill each other to get ahead, you know, it's old fashioned. doesn't work anymore. And, you know, she's she's pretty damn good. I think it's crazy to complain that, and we got that same thing with Vig, didn't we? We've got war episodes. We can't be spending time. How dare you? Getting to know... That's right. That's right. We don't need a girl to come along and distract us from all this war. You know, I just, it's just predictably tedious. That's the direct quote, you know, from a corner of fandom. No, but I thought that was really fun. really enjoyed that. I think, well, I really enjoyed watching it the 1st time in preparation. I think the 2nd episode is if anything, stronger and more interesting because... I think it's a better episode. Yeah, well, do you know what? It risks disappointing because it's got 3 plots, but I think it pays them all off pretty well. Well, I think the advantage that it has over like a normal 2 parter is that it has a very low key, like it's a hugely important cliffhanger in the context of the show because it's us seeing the new Dax for the 1st time. That's important to us as the audience. It's important to Ben is going to have repercussions later on. But that's not the big crisis. Like the episode doesn't reach its big crisis and then have to spend 45 minutes kind of winding down from that. So this is all set up. It's us getting to know the status quo again. It's getting us to see all of the characters that we like, and then we start to hear about what they're going to do in the next episode. So the next episode is a bit more action oriented and a bit more fun, I think. But that was great. That was super enjoyable. Interesting thing about that. Cliffhanger is it's not what a cliffhanger regularly does in Star Trek, which is pivot the plot in another direction. It's pivoting the characters in another direction in a really sort of very cute moment. Like, think of descent. That ended with, you know, the Sons of Soon will soon be taken down the Federation. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, but what this is, this is hugely important to us and she doesn't really have a plot here. So she just tags along with Ben. We get to hear her backstory, some of which will be reused, I think, in discovery. We get to hear her backstory. We get to hear a little bit about that, which is what we were kind of wondering, I guess. But then they kind of park her and then they just sort of let her be in his plot in Ben's, you know, plot thread. So she doesn't derail or deform the episode in any way. It doesn't open up a new direction for the episode to go in. She just comes in and joins with one of the plots that's already been established. So I think it's a good cliffhanger because it isn't the big crisis point of the episode. I've got one question for you then before we ow, and that is, this is an exceptionally quiet episode. Despite the fact that lots of stuff is happening and a lot of characters are involved and it's setting up a lot of stuff. Is that okay? Is it okay to open a season this sort of amiably? Yeah I think so. And I think, you know, like last season did the big, let's take sort of 7 episodes or something to get the status quo back. Like it had that big massively long serialised thing and they're not going to do that again. You know, we're just going to go back into it. Ira Bear said they were deliberately confounding people. They wanted to deliver the unexpected and the time to stand. It's, you know, in the war, they go and take on a catch a white facility and a Dominion ship and it's all going on in that. And they were like, no, we want to start with some ink that's character focussed, that is setting things up. And that is just a nice gentle leading to what is going to be a pretty, you know, loud season. Yeah, yeah. All right. So should we, we'll do the 2nd episode then? Yeah, let's go. I'll count us in. Five, four, three, two, one, and we're off. Do you have a last time on Deep Space 9 here? I do. Most of the same footage from the previous last time, I think so so. And they're always going to do. I'd rather this than loads of exposition scenes. Well, I know we're going to get those anyway. That's right. But we still, I mean, we're still doing... It covers a lot of ground, didn't it? these pre-titles. Like, it's going all through Tears of the Profits, all through image in the sand, and it's, there's a lot of content there. Yeah, I'm still on, we're still on tears of the profits here. Now here we are. And now you're telling me that the wormhole is gone. See, that's still the end. That's still the end of teaser the prophets, isn't it? Yeah, well, to how he's going. Now we've got a, I want, then I'm sure in the pre-titles will learn about Sarah. It's going to be everything that's pertinent to the 2nd we've got doing the dangerous mission. Now that was from last week, wasn't it? Yeah. Dangerous enough to ensure Jadzir, our place is stub a car. Yeah. And then we have so we have that plot. Now we have the image in the sand plot. Yeah. Okay. wife before, mama? Yeah, yeah. And then we have. There we go. 2 scary ladies plot. I know you don't do this, but can you do the line this time? Oh, which one is it? I mean, you remove those wet. No, I can't do it. I will. Oh, look. And now we have now we have little, now we have little Ezri, who I just think is adorable. Little Nicole de Boa, fresh from the dead zone. Yep She was in a thing called Cube as well, which I saw. Cube is a great film. I really thought that was cleverly using the resources that they had. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not hugely expensive, but it's pretty great. Verbal diarrhoea in this scene is just delightful. She's so sweet, isn't she? But she calls she calls herself out for it, doesn't she? Doesn't she? She says, you know, do you even want another Dax in your life? you know, will she ever stop talking? You know, And then she even asked me. She goes, these are all great questions. I don't have any answers for you. So sweet. And then he goes, I'm glad you're here. And she goes, I'm so glad you said that. She's actually struggling a little bit here, acting with her acting, but uh, look, and I love how Jake's suddenly taller. Jake fancies the arse off her, all right? Because in after image at the end when they're having wine and stuff and he's going, oh, she is cute and Cisco says she's also 900 years old by someone else. It would be age appropriate though. She is very young. isn't she here? Yeah. So in the original casting process, their original pitch for the character was actually someone um, a little kind of creepy. They wanted to sort of lean into the sort of Duran style thing. So they were looking at someone kind of quirky, funny, and a little bit sort of off-putting. And they apparently they did one audition after another, 100s and literally they said it wasn't that there was loads in the running. No one was in the room. Nobody would. Then she walked in and didn't deliver anything that they wanted and they were blown away by her sort of charisma, cute she was. You know, and they were just like, we need to rethink, look out. Not the audition. Yeah. I thought it was sort of slightly odd that they just, like, this sounds really trivial, but it's just 2 white women, you know, both brunettes, like, yeah. At least it was a woman. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's true. And they had to cast a woman, they can't, you know, lose. So they, they, uh, Ira Bear literally is quoted as saying we cannot just have Kira as the only female character on the show. Even though there's lots of extraneous female characters in the show. You can only, they've only got, what, 2 women in the opening titles. Yeah. But you know, when they did that, what you leave behind documentary and they had a bit where there's like a sassy song played over all the women in DS 9 and they had one and I'm like man, there were some strong women in this show, you know? Like win, Keiko, Kira, Jazia, every, like we went on Cassidy Yates. Yes, yeah. She's so good. I wouldn't take any one of them on. I'm telling you. Yeah, yeah, gosh. Penny Johnson. superb. And I think, like we said in the last episode, ultimately, the borough was like a massive success, but I think you did need this breaking in period. Yeah. Yeah. But I think like, you know, once the show for, like, it's not, it was never, ever going to be just about the war for 26 episodes however much some people wanted that, because that's not the sort of show that they want to make. And, you know, it's about the characters as well, and it's about comedy and it's about, you know, space and weird science-y things and stuff. It's not all going to be about the war. And so they're absolutely not wasting time. This gives them a shot in the arm and something different to do. The weird thing in latter-day DS9 is when they do a space mystery. Wow. Do they do this on this show? I'm not sure there's many actually in the last couple of years. Obviously, they do one little ship, which fit, to me, feels like a TNG episode. And children of time, which is a fantastic episode, but it is very much, you know, we or descendants, any show could do that. Yeah Yeah. That children of time, uh, eclipses 2 vics as like, you know, like everyone is very annoyed about Janeway killing 2 vics. But for goodness sake, look at what Odo does in children of time. She goes, she goes through it in the last scene. 8000 people. He goes, but I did it for you. And she goes, does that make it right? That's it. That's exactly it. He kills. He disappears 8000 people so he can keep boning gear. Odo, though, is it? It's the it's the older Odo. Oh okay. That's how they get. They get away with it. okay. It's not our... Oh, look, here he comes on the Klingon ship. Quark. Son of Caldar. Yeah, that's right. Do you know what he said? Why all the cutlery? So good. Oh, ow. Oh, here we go. Yep, there he is. Walk is just this wonderful avatar for criticising or pointing out things that the audience are thinking about all the other things about the Federation. If you saw a robin, you go, oh, those ears were a bit pointing, you know? It's, um, I, I like this too. There is a generosity to this because these are men and they're being useless. You know, this is their way of doing grief. They go off and blow something up because they're kind of, you know. But you and me just cry each other when, you know, but I like how this plays out. I think this is a particularly good plot. Well, I think I think the moments between Marsawk and Quark are wonderful. I think Cork's had a little insight into Klingon culture with 2 episodes. I mean, he's not completely in the dark. But it's where Martok grabs his hand at the end once they've done it. So just say, yeah, you're one of us, you know. That doesn't look very hygienic. Honestly, no. That's horrible. Why isn't there blood pink? Anyway, it was pink in Star Trek. Spice is his hand open. And then he shoves all the blood over some candle wax. Yeah, yeah, definitely unhygienic. I can't help but notice. Every time we go back to these runabouts in DS9, you know, they're 10 times the size. It's the previous one we saw. Yeah, they do get bigger each season, don't they? That say, it gets bigger and bigger. Oh, Joseph Cisco's a bit nervous about space travel and no one's flying the ship. Just exactly what you were saying earlier. So, wait a sec. Do they have they built a big runabout? Is there a big runabout? Yeah, I, this is a, uh, brand new runabout. I think for series 7. Because it, you remember in Treasury Faith in the Great River. They're in the runabout for nearly the whole episode. Way in and Odo. And we've got a little teleport bay thing. What's that called? Transport. There's even like a room. Yeah, and a room out the back for a bed. There's quite a lot going on in there. But did they ever build a big one that you have to see from the outside? Because I guess Deep Sostein doesn't have a cargo base set. it? I don't think so, no. Not like the show. No, it does have a cargo set. Do you remember where Nog has to do the itinerary when he wants to get into the Federation? It's not quite as impressive. I think they're putting their money in other places. TNG didn't mind building a big runabout, what else are they going to do, you know? That's it. I think original series did it as well, didn't it? One of the ones, which is. Did we see a massive? Oh, they built, they built practical, um, practical shuttles though, in in TNG. No, they had that model. Remember that adorable model that we saw? Oh, doomsday machine. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Isn't this lovely? Everyone, literally, everyone reacts the same when they find out she's a therapist. appalled. And then she's like, right, I'm going to be a therapist on DS9. They're all having a party and everyone's looking at each other like, oh. She's the one that's taking care of our psychological stability now. Yeah, yeah. Terrifying. It's kind of funny, isn't it? It is sort of funny because they'd never had a council... What choices, though. You know, she does make some very strange choices. It's only a paper note and she's like, yeah, go on, let him go off to Vic's. You know, I'm not dealing with this. Oh I love this. They've already sent a protest of our protest. politics. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, I think this might have been, this might have been the scene that, uh, which I just think Admiral Ross is not very good in this and I think this might be the scene that broke me as far as he was concerned. He's just not that great. Maybe he's just a very stiff politician, you know? Maybe he is, maybe. I'll bet there's plenty of Admiral Rosses, you know, in the Trump you know, administration. probably. Just an old white guy. Kira's got no time for none of this shit though, is she? Yeah. Yeah. She's like, oh, look, what are we going to do? Like stop talking and let's stop doing, which is what she does. It's kind of interesting, isn't it? Just kind of the way that this relationship here works because ordinarily the person in that office is someone who is part of the chain of command, whom he can just order around, and now he's having to deal with this external person. Well, do you know what? So iOS is the purpose of this plot. The entire purpose of it was he wanted to box these 3 races into a position where the Romulans and the Bajorans would refuse to back down and the Federation had to be the ones that back down at the end, which I think is a fair motion, actually. Yeah, that is pretty good. See, in all those scenes where we keep coming back to them going you know, well, she better she better back down because I'm not you know, I'm like, okay. Who's going to back down out of this? And I think it's a good, it's a good ending. And you get that lying about, you know, remind me never to play poker with you. Always a bloody poker. Yeah, yeah, that's a bit of crap. Oh, okay. Now he's starting to hear weird things. And it's a doctor, Dr. Wickoff, who we will see is Casey Biggs. Is it Biggs, Briggs, Biggs? Casey Biggs? Big, yeah. I believe he's needed in isolation ward. Apparently, yeah. That's right. And so we start to hear more of these. I love this. So these Starfleet, these are sort of, Do you remember the 1st scene of Discovery, where Michelle, Yo, and Saniqua are on the planet surface wearing that sort of their special Starfleet? I know you as well because I was... This prompted you to go off and watch. I did. It actually made me want to watch it just because I love that scene so much. And I love Michelle Yeoh, cousin Michelle so much. She's so true. There's a beautiful crane shot here, though, which shows the expanse of the landscape. And it's kind of on a scale we don't really see in 90s trek very often. I really like it. I mean, it's still where are we? Nevada or something. Oh, it's a bit different from what we normally see. Yeah, look, it's absolutely making an effort. I'm not being dismissive at all. I unkindly... coined those scene Cisco of Arabia, though, when I wrote my review because he's got the hood over his head and there's lots of scenes of them struggling through the landscape you know. I mean, do you remember Star Trek 5 and there's all those scenes in the desert at the beginning of that? Like, that's how this could be done with a movie budget. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. This is a TV budget. I think that's a fair step. I think they're doing pretty well. they are doing pretty well. Okay, what's happening here on the Klingon ship now? We're just talking about blowing some shit up that they're going to do. They're going to blow up a shipyard in Jadzia's honour. Is that right? That's right. So the gates of Stovercor will open and she'll be ushered inside as a Brave Warrior. So we do see Stovercore later, don't we, in Voyager in Barge of the Dead? Part of the Dates. It's a terrific visual as well. Yeah, it looks really good. It's absolutely the show doing something that looks weird for a fucking change. It's great. Why the fuck would she want to spend eternity there? Walk is right. Well, it's the barge of the dead. I don't know. Maybe they have good... ceremony, really. You know, she's not really there. No, no, it is for them, isn't it? It is just for them. It's for them to do something because they're men. They need to do something. What's great is they need to do something and they do. They blow up a shipyard, but they all still end up talking about their feelings anyway. Yeah, which is nice. Yeah. So Wharf, so Quag wants to be thanked for coming along. Of course he does. Because he just can't read the room at all. Banked or paid. One or the other. Oh, Warf's really nasty. Yeah, it's being a massive prick here, isn't he? Yeah. I mean, Prickets is the full setting. I mean, that's what I said earlier, this episode. His job is basically to be wrong all the time. And so he's always the one who advocates sort of for a more violent response in Star Trek, the Next Generation, and he's the one who's the massive dickhead on riser in let he who is out there. I was just about to say that, you know. Well, there are levels to his wrongness. That is an extreme, a terrible wrong that he commits. Whereas here, he's upset and he's hurting and you know, it's kind of understandable and he apologises. and he does it in a really generous way. I think what he ends up saying about them is really quite lovely like really something. I like about that plot as well, is there is a few technobabble lines in there, although we've kind of essentially abandoned a lot of technobabble, I guess not at this point, because it's more about the characters, but it's such a simple idea. We're going to blow up that sum and it's going to take out that shipyard and that's it's a cool idea and it's a simple idea. And that's the sort of technobabble I like. Yeah, I do too. I think that if you need more techno babble than that, you've got to simplify what you're doing, like, you shouldn't be creating situations that require that much just sitting around talking in made up words about shit. That's also made up. And I'll tell you something. Tamar has got a family. He's got a wife and children. I can tell you this, because they all get executed in the last half of the season, by the way you, not correct effects. And he's here flirting with this woman on the job. Oh, well, there you go. He wouldn't have been too sorry when they were executed, I suppose. I like it when way in goes. What is it? What a charming woman. So funny, isn't it? I really like that. I don't know why. It's a funny life. that I love that line. Yeah. I think Jeffrey Coombs has got the almond shimmer factor of that. You can just sell any better dialogue. Yeah. Yeah. So now he's just threatened to execute this lady who's now leaving. She has to leave or otherwise get executed. Yeah, what a pleasant woman. woman. funny. Oh, and now, of course, he's got, he's going to tell, he's like right, we need, we need the Monak shipyard to win the war. blow up. That's the one thing that can't blow up in this. And we need to take the Chintaka system, which was the boring system that they, that they conquered in, uh, tears the profits. But didn't I have those fabulous orbital platforms? Yeah, that looked really cool. Tomorrow's really sweating because none of them are turning on. And then at the last an 11th hour, they all turn on and start, you know, firing like crazy. It's great. It is pretty good. They do look cute. They do have a sense of occasion, I think, latter-day DS night with some of the special effects. Like, I think the hero shot in this of the sun going up and the shipyard being swept away. It's pretty great. pretty good. And I think that the visuals, like they made, they made it very clear how the battle was going to work. Like it's not just a weightless cartoon, that battle in Tears of the Prophets. Like it is, you know, when they're... Oh, strategic, isn't it? Yeah, you've got a real sense of how it works, I think. Nathan, I was hoping that our relationship was going to be a long and happy one, but I'll settle for short and exciting. Really? Is that it? That's what Odo just said to Kira. love that line. Yeah, he's very old. obviously he's going to he's going to go with her, isn't he, obviously? Yeah. Yeah. He's been piling after her for 5 years. He's not going to let her go now. I really like that too, because obviously they don't end up together and he does have to end up going home. Um, and so leading into this relationship now is absolutely the right thing for them to be doing, given that presumably by now they know where they're going. I'm not sure what's more touchy, though, is the bit where Quark says goodbye to him at the airlock or where Kira says goodbye to him on the rock. I think they're equally touching Yeah, yeah. Oh, here we go. Back around the same rock again. Yeah, that's it. I think they filmed a buffy episode there. We wish we went off into the desert. did a vision quest. And there's that there's that sort of tribal woman going, death is your gift. Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah, in series. I think it was filmed here, you know. could well be. A lot of desert. They're dragging. It's not the same rock there. It's in arena, is it? No, no, no. That's really very, very striking. I should watch Arena. We had lots of gone in strangely worlds. seriously. It's just like, this one is so contained in sets. When they're out in an expanse like this, it's just like a breath of air, isn't it? lovely. Yeah, I think so too. But, you know, they had a bit of a thing, but whenever they went on location. They always chose, and they always went out on the hottest day of the year. So in the ship, it's in the desert, hottest day of the year, in indiscretion when Kieran, Dakart, are in the desert, hottest day of the year. Honestly, all the makeup starts to melt. I think that's why they've only sent you... Hans have gum. Oh, trill. Yeah. Well, I don't think that's... I'm forcing... Come on, old man. They just seem to have left him behind at this point. It's kind of like, all right, you just stay there, Brock will, uh will keep doing the episode. Well, I think they're leading into this thing they do with Cisco every now and again where he's like, he's mad zealot now, isn't it? He's a bit crazy about this thing that he's come looking for. Yeah, that is a... It looks like they're in the middle of nowhere. doesn't it? It looks quite amazing. It is pretty good. Oh, okay. To Wyckoff. Please come to isolation ward 4 immediately. Yeah. I wonder if that's Michelle Barrett, you know. Ah, I don't know. Yeah, it could be. I be. It would be quite nice if she was both the announcer and the computer. Ah, he throws the ball, doesn't he? And the ball landed in the, yeah, yeah, where he digs, but that, I mean, what happened? Remember the ball fell off the piano just like moved off the piano in a sort of mysterious way. Yeah, here we go. You know, did you notice how that desert's been combed? No, it's the wind. Reminds me of that scene in spaceballs, you know? Do you know, in the desert? I have never seen space balls, would you believe? So they say, well, you comb the desert and they've got a giant cone and it's Tim Ross. Really? You know, do you know how hot it is out here as he's moving this massive comb along? There is an unfortunate thing here, though, with this very dry sand, is that he can't seem to dig up much. No, it just goes straight back. He's falling in the hole. Oh, here we go. The cartoon Moon of Derna. Yeah, yeah. Okay. So that's Bajor and that's Derner. And what is they reading books on their iPad? What are they doing? They'll probably be giving a pawn to region. I don't know if it's porn. No, it's a detective novel. Yeah, I go read detective novels. Yeah, yeah. Okay. And he's given this one to Kira because it's a hardest nails, tough bitch. Oh, of course, because she just has to sort of sit there and kind of blockade. Right. So, oh, okay. I think I think the person, the protagonist hates waiting as much as Kira does. That's the whole point of the scene. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. To make that point. Yeah. Oh, here we go. Look, have you noticed how Cretax in front of Admiral Ralph? Yeah, because he's a loser, I've decided. Like she's just playing him. Oh, do you know, her line when she goes, well, your concern is touching, Senator, but I'm not dead yet. He's so great. Oh, yeah. I couldn't love her more. Look, look, he's absolutely whipped, isn't he? He just can't... Yes, I wasn't very happy about it. I just have to wear it because I'm useless. Have you ever been in this situation when you got 2 women going at each other. I've been in this situation quite a few times. I'll tell you what, I'll be sitting behind as well. Yeah, you reckon? I reckon... Very few people are as fierce as Senator Cretak or whatever her name is. Is that what you call? I love the fact that you've got these these, you know, terrifying Romulan warburs and these pathetic little Bajoran scout ships or whatever they are. But you got Kira. Keras in front of it all. So be scared anyway. Yes. But Kira's so used to being the underdog, isn't she? Like, she was the young doctor in the occupation. So this is this is her playing field. So this is, again, the sort of blocking that I like where one character goes over to the window and looks out while the other one continues to talk to them. That's through this. I like how Cretog looks just off camera and goes, geez, she's bluffing. Yeah, God let brought me to sit down, you people. He was into kill a mockingbird. Have some respect. But he's not really contributing anything, is he? He's just being Brock Peters. He's just... Yeah, but he's just... such an exhausting an old man. You think that they're just wasting him. O Bear says that the reason why, he wanted the whole family along on this thing. Like, like, he, he was like, you know, I'm a father, and my son was going on this very important quest of self-discovery about my ex-wife, a way to girlfriend. I would absolutely go along to see, and that makes sense. I just wish you'd got a bit more to do with all. Yeah, yeah. I just looked dead. Well, I mean, all of these plots are really fairly straightforward aren't they? Like, aren't they? I think I think the complexity comes from the fact that there's just so much going on in the 2nd half of the episode. Like they all ramp up at the same time. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, he comes, he comes quite complaining about the gar. Oh great. Yeah, but I like how Martok chews him out as well. Yeah, well, he's telling him off here. Yeah. Doesn't he say what, do you not want me here as well? That's right. Why don't you go and do this mission on your own? Let's see how good you do. Yeah, here we go. So it is a proper confrontation and yes, and he apologises. The look on everyone's face when he says he wants to apologise. It's really good. Good, isn't it? Like, it is properly good, and I love I love what he says. You know, I do wonder, you know, if that's this is how our overalls feel, you know, because I very often say, well, Nathan said this. Nathan said that, you know, we were talking on untitled Star Trek project. Nathan said this very witty thing. You must think, for God's sake, I feel like I'm in a bloody relationship with Nathan, you know. Now, Quark just pushes it just a little bit too far. No. You know what? That's his character, is it? He doesn't really, you know, he will always say what he thinks no matter what. So Palmer is the word for lover in Klingon, because we had looking for Palmer in all the wrong places. They say that, yeah, don't they? Yeah, they say yeah. Oh no, they say you were the aggressor. Cork's like, go on. I wanna hear some more. come on. More apology. was enjoying that. Yeah, the war time. That's all. Come on. I am pleased that you are here. That's so good. Wharf is big enough to say that he is wrong. You know, he score the ball. And but it's not just I was wrong, but in, it's like you were hugely important to her, you know, it's like they're saying, you know, he originally said, you know, you, you don't deserve to be here. None of you understood her. None of you, you know, measured up to me as a man, you know, blah blah, blah, blah, blah. But is like, no, you are hugely, hugely important. This looks so good. I do like this shipyard. The shipyard, yeah. It looks, does it look a bit like a cupboard? swept away at the end. I like the fact they throw in a couple of Gem Hadar ships as well. So it's a bit of fiery garret on. And obviously a console explodes. Jesus Christ can't have an action sequence without it. So bad. It's the worst thing. But actually, no, but watching this one, because it's less about the console exploded, they kind of fill the set full of smoke and it's all looking a bit chaotic. I think the lighting in those Klingon ships is appropriately moody that you can make the action sequences look a bit. There's always smoke in there as well, isn't, isn't there? Do you not remember that? Marvellous one in, um, oh, God, once more onto the breach, where cause on the bridge, and he's got dementia, and he's going, attack the Federation, and the, uh, the Klingon ship is literally flying through the atmosphere. It's got to a point where the special effects are bang on. Oh here we go. He has a pencil in his hand somehow. And now I... I think that's really there, is it? Is that pencil really good? No, I don't think it is, but I think it's a good choice. Yeah. So here is Damar out of makeup. So in Far Beyond the Stars, we had a lot of people out of makeup didn't we? But not Damar, but Casey Biggs, wasn't he that, right? So they're kind of redressing the bump. Probably wait. Oi, what about me? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he gets to have a go. I really like this padded cell set with all the script. I like the walls as well. Yeah. And it's sort of lit in a way that it's just like normal, like, you know, the lighting we see every day. DSI is not lit like that, is it? It's all kind of lighting in the sets. It's a strange choice, I have to say. Like, I know he has a breakdown, doesn't he, at the end of Far Beyond the Stars, where he says, you know, it was real. All of these these places were real. I made them. I wrote them. Yeah, so I don't know, institutionalising him, I guess, we're still telling the story of just... He was sent off in an ambulance, wasn't he? At the end of that one. Yeah. So this is where, but then because this is a vision to prevent him from opening the box, so it's sent from the par raves or something. This is the par raves. Yeah, but does that mean they're far beyond the stars vision was a parade vision as well. I don't think so. So, uh, canonically, Betty Russell really existed, um, because... Only because Kurtzman Trek says... He wrote that book. The, the, what's it called? The Elysian Kingdom, he wrote that book from... from that episode which is a really fun episode that no doubt very serious fanboys think is stupid. But I think it's really great. But, and I did like the conceit that he, he wrote it, you know that that Deep Space 9 is a, you know, from classic golden era science fiction and stuff, um, you know. He's doing what you always say, isn't he? is a story. written by people. It's literally telling us that, you know. That's right. And this is, I just love the bit where he writes opens it. He opens the box. Look, you couldn't get more literal than that. We had a lovely sweep then, a Romulan ship's approaching down. I do like the design of them. So we see them in the finale to series one, don't we? of Star Trek. Generation? Yeah. The neutral side. They can only do one. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We've just seen about 12 of them. Well, that's right, because they scanned it, I suppose, and made a computer model of it, but it looks so good. Like, we're not obviously where CGI would be, but I think it's getting far more ambitious, like, towards the end of GS9. Yeah, I think you can tell proper stories. Like, do you remember in Sacrifice of Angels, when the ships, the Defiance weaving through all those ships explosing. In some ways, it's a little more dynamic. Sometimes I think than the space battles are now. I think they try and make it look prettier now. Yeah, I think too, they they want to sell that the ships are like battleships or submarines or something, you know, they they take a while to turn around, so the battles are a little bit more stately. But yeah, that those battles are sort of particularly dynamic, I think. I mean, you know, there are still things they can do now that they couldn't do back then. But I think this is pretty good. Do you know what she's saying there when she says to send a Greek tech, you know, your concern is touching, but I'm not dead yet. Don't you come at me. All right, I'm the Cardassian single-hand and be all right for 20 years. Yeah, this is probably the most, is this the most kind of perilous one, you know, like I don't think. It's repetitive because we keep going back to Cretac going, I'm not gonna back down, you know? The best thing about it is the actress is good enough to sell those lines. she is really good. Because it could have been really, really bad. No, I think she's feeling strong. Admiral Ross just doesn't say anything, which is best for all concerned, really. I think she's like a really particularly scary school librarian Senator Cretack. Like, she's not going to put up with any of your shit and she's just sort of says it how she sees it. It's a great scene, you know, where she gets where she gets taken down because it's in front of the whole Romulan Senate and she sat there in front of them and they detail everything that she's done and you see the look on her face of how she's been played for the entire episode. is really great. So, but, you know, like this is the closest that we get to any opposition to Ben's mission, right? Yeah. Well, I suppose Jake was thrown back by a bolt of lightning, a second ago, I guess. but yes. And then Cisco reaches for the box and dot, dot, dot. He even bothered to put the dot, dot, dot in there. You know, like, I love the, you know what? The drama of that wobbling paint brush. Roller. So is he going to dig it up? Is he going to not dig it up? The thing is, the sand is still so fine. He can't quite bear it. Guess what happens when you dig in a desert? So this is the only so this one's cleared up fairly quickly. The Stovercore one, do they meet any opposition to speak off? Not really. They just blow up the thing and go home. No, no, no. Yeah, no, because they fail, don't they? And then the ships come after him. That's kind of where your action is there. But what's nice is, is they're doing all the suspense at the same time with all three. So who's going to back down with Kira and thingy? Is he going to open the box? Will they be able to blow up the shipyard? The answer is, of course. Yes, everything will be fine. When I say that Avery Brooks plays an insane man, Extremely adeptly. I think he's had a lot of practice in real life. He's so great, isn't he? I love him. He's such a funny guy Yeah, look at this all sort of circling around a sun. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's getting quite hot in here. Okay, so we're doing the thing. press the button. general. Just take me out. Take me out of the oven, cookie. Yeah, cooked. Yeah, yeah. So cute. I suppose we've got to have one failure. It would have been a bit too easy, wouldn't it? Yeah I'm not sure if I would, you know, last time a Klingon ship went that close to a son, they ended up back in the 20th century. Yeah, that's true. That is true. Back in the 90s. sort of strange polystyrene heads came out. So odd. Could we do a movie soon, please? We must do one. We really need to do a movie, I think. I watched... We're doing the length of a movie. That's exactly right. could do a movie. I watched Star Trek Beyond the other night and it might have been last night, actually, and really enjoyed it. It's really fun, but I think that's the best of the three, you know. I do too. Isn't that funny? does as well. It's got lots of good character stuff and lots of comedy. Yeah, yeah. And it's just not overblown like that. No, it feels very Star Trek. It feels... It feels like it does feel like an original series episode with the most immense budget you can ever get. and sort of visual imagination as well. It is visually pretty interesting, I think. Do you say Avery Brooks' muscles bulging there? Look at him. Marvel. He's a fit man. Honestly, that's the best version of that, yeah. Oh, okay, there's a bit of a weird moment there because she goes you know, you promised Jadzia. You'd make things right, but she was dead in a coffin. How did she hear? That's right. How did she hear that? She watched the previously on Star Trek. Deep Space 9. Oh, shit. Oh, you go in all space. Here you go. Opens the box. Oh, look at it. But you know what? It's his handwriting. Do you know what the they made him write? Yeah, yeah. stress the whole set. I think the payoff to the Kira plot. It isn't, um, Ross making them back down is her face when she sees the wormhouse back. I just love that moment. she's just like, I'm absolutely doing the right thing. Oh, so the beam then goes past opens the wormhole. Oh, Parra gets spat out and just sort of vanishes. Oh, okay. Yeah. All right. So, so that, okay. Yeah, that makes sense. Do you know, I do, yeah, I know you say about the power rate, and I know they are a bit sheer. But it does, it does bring, uh, do cut and win together for like 8 episodes, which is kind of pretty great. in a strange place. Yeah, but when they're together, I've seen each other. amazing. It's pretty awesome, is it? A blind, a blind, beggar will elicit the sympathy of the Bajoran people, throw him out. Oh, yeah, look at that. They're going to fight. Is that because it's back? Because it's back, it inspires her. Yeah. I'm not sure. Yeah, well, no, I think I think she's like, this is confirmation that I'm absolutely right. If you're doing the right thing, because she's a religious nutcase as well. Bless her. Do you know what? We had one more cut back to Cretack then, who was, I'm afraid that Colonel was run out of time. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. She talks a big game, doesn't she? Oh, Senator Crazy. the best line in the whole thing. Where he just goes, what are you waiting for? Fire. Or maybe it's, can we go home now? So we're going to blow up these guys? Can we leave? In equal on every Klingon show. Oh, look at this. Look that looks really great. Oh, I don't know about that bit. But like, yes, okay. No, no. They look a bit bare bones, so stupid, yeah. Yeah, yeah. A couple of... they really are. They're trying to make it look... Oh, and look, there's a Cardassian ship, cartoon of a Cardassian ship. It literally just envelops the whole thing. Yeah, yeah, that is cool. And that's what offset the dominion back a bit. If that is producing a load of ships. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, we saw we saw some of those Cardassian chips in like space doc or whatever. Yeah, that's adorable, Martok and Quark. That's really true. And it absolutely it does what the episode needed to do. It needed to justifiably allow us to move on from jazz. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And it achieves that. Yeah, and ties in with the war, like it's a war type of thing. He says these Klingon lines with such sincerity, doesn't he? He really does. He, uh, he's... I think at this point, he might think he is a Klingon. He's done so much that trick at this point. What's he done seven, you know, 10, 11 seasons? 11 seasons. And he's going to do one films and... Yeah, like he did the, because he's in Star Trek 6 as well. Yeah, so he's very important to the whole project. I don't I don't want to keep saying this about all the female characters, but bloody hell, Nanar Vistor is beautiful, isn't she? She really is. Admiral Ross is not. No, no. He's not very good either. So, I still don't, how did we resolve this? We just sort of sat there for a while and then... Well, it's off screen as well. Yeah, that's a bit crap, isn't it, I think? Basically, he basically said, you know, pull back otherwise, we won't have an alliance anymore. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We started it in the 1st place. right. With that lie thing. Oops. I didn't mean to mention that Now, I have got a few things to say about Deborah Lacy in this scene who is delivering all of her dialogue because she's a spicy person. Yeah. But she tones it down. So as the season goes on, she comes back again and again and again. Do you know what the most old her best moment and the ultimate moment of soap opera in DS9 is just as Cisco is about to put the ring on Cassidy's finger. No, right? It goes to a flash and into the wormhole and she's like, this is not meant to be. This is not linear, Benjamin. It's so good. Oh my god, it's pure soap. love it. And he basically says, fuck off, doesn't he? Because I'm going to marry her anyway. So, yeah, and so what's the cost emoji? Is that a parre? No, the cost emoji is the power if it just got spat out of the wormhouse. Oh, that guy. The one that was in, it was the one that was in Dakart. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then went into the wormhole and closed it. Okay. All right. I think the whole time we've been having this adventure, there's been a celestial battle occurring within the wormhole. Which, unfortunately, we didn't have... But we do get to see it later. Cost of imagination. Yeah, there's lots of It'd be better than the effects. A lot of people firing beams out of their stomachs at people, I think, probably. No, no, I remember back in the day, you know, in Sacrifice of Angels, they have a vision where he's saying to the prophets, you know, you've got to stop the Dominion ships coming through the wormhole and we're cut into DS9 and it's defiant and all these different locations. Well, this is a cheaper version where they're just going to various parts of Joseph's restaurant. Yeah, yeah. But I think that's probably a pretty good choice anyway. I mean, remember in the very 1st episode where we see them and, you know, like we're in their quarters in the Cisco's quarters where Jennifer is killed and you're on the bridge with Jake, you know and stuff like that. Like it has always been that. This is a little bit more kind of just 2 people talking to one another than previous. Which is kind of what this is. It's supposed to be a moment between Cisco and his mother. So you can't make it two. And so she becomes, she basically becomes our profit character from here on in, and she's played by one person. You know, just, you know, turn some fancy lights on Admiral Ross and get him to deliver the lines and suddenly he's a prophet. Even Deborah Lacy, who I was reading some interviews with her, just adored playing this show. And she said, and she said, there's some lines that she had throughout this season, in the episode she was in, that stuck to her to this day, because she's the one with all the, you know, sort of profound, prophetic dialogue, you know. Oh, this is great. Yeah, isn't it? This is him absolutely like, you know, picking up the kid. All of that. Oh my god, that fucking child in sacrifice. No, tears of the prophets. Tears of the prophets, rather, yeah. You have to bring the prophets back. That was so bad. I'm just getting vibes from that scene. this Wolf, we need to talk. The hell's that? And it's like, they're all kind of horrified. I like that blocking, though, of them all coming together and going, well, who's that? And looking over to her, you know, kind of, she sort of doesn't quite know what she's in for, which is kind of great. Oh, look. And so that's promising next episode. That's what I object to. Is that line where he goes, just when you thought things couldn't get more interesting. A little bit on the nose, Odo. Yeah, yeah, thanks. Next thing you know, they'll be singing the best is yet to come before an arc. But I think that I love that stuff. You know, I'm absolutely here for cars changes and watching how they get handled and stuff. It's one of the great pleasures of TV and when does when else does it happen? It happens mid Voyager, doesn't it, in 90s straight? 7 comes in. Yeah. Yeah, that's about... I guess Tasha dying at the end of series one. But nobody replaced her, did they? Oh, Dr. Pulaski? Oh, she just appeared and then disappeared and we never knew anything about it. It's so weird, you know, about Dr. Pulaski because everybody hated her. Moldar hated being on TNG. The cast hated her being there. All the characters hated her. I absolutely loved her. Yeah, I think people do like her. I think she is pretty great. But again, it's a sort of weird kind of thing to happen, isn't it? And they don't handle it all that well because they don't quite know what they're doing. I guess. They're not telling a coherent story at that point. They're just doing Star Trek episodes, I suppose. Do you know the joy of talking about that two-parter with you is I feel like we just get to talk about a load of stuff that we don't talk about elsewhere. It's such a, it's such a unique 90s trek show. Yeah. Like, like, we'll talk about Avoyager. We'll talk about TNG. We'll talk about space problems and terrible designed aliens and all this. We didn't mention none of that here, didn't we? No, I mean, like, there's still things to make fun of, and it still Star Trek, and it's still, there's a base level of cheesiness implied by that, but that's why we're here. Oh, there's a high level achieving this in there, aren't they? But I think that's really, really just properly enjoyable. And it is what you, you said. I think that the move into serialised storytelling allows us to feel like we're staying in a coherent world with people and spending time with them. And I think it works really, really well. And it's neither of the other 2 big shows attempt at maybe sort of enterprise does a little bit, like once it's exhausted itself at the end of series two. It also does coherent serialised storytelling. And then that straight away where when Star Trek comes back with Star Trek Discovery, it's absolutely one long sort of 15 episode story or something, basically. That's how it comes back. And I'm glad that it does. I said to you that I think this is like an ideal mission statement for the series of DS 9. It's telling us new things about established characters. It's introducing new characters. It's establishing how serialised the show is going to be. It's setting up a ton of stuff, characters, the alcoholism, Cretac the cult of the par raves, all this stuff that's paid off later on. And it's just a bloody good time as well. I mean, it's it's a little different for DF Night to start as softly as this. But I think it's good telly. I think it's really good telly. Yeah, I'm not I'm not super jazzed by how that the Kira plot resolved itself so conveniently. And when I spoke to you, like soon after I'd been watching it, I just expressed surprise by how, how incredibly soapy it was, how and I love that. I'm absolutely on board for it. Is that a bad thing? No, it absolutely isn't a bad thing. It's really great. And so I thought that was just tremendously enjoyable. And, you know, they had done a big giant, long serialised arc that disrupted the status quo of the show and separated the characters from me. and did all sorts of new, interesting things. And so it was nice to see them all kind of, you know, Ben had gone off with Jake, but basically we're all kind of together doing things and hanging out and stuff. I love it. But as well, like, you said to me, uh, DS9 informs discovery in a lot of ways, and, you know, let's be honest, discovery is a massive soap opera. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, it pours on soap melodrama sometimes. Oh, that one episode where they were all saying goodbye before the end of the series too. And everyone's weeping and hugging and I'm like, all the stuff about her mother, you know, like all of that. You just fucking get with it already. Stop emoting all over the place. But I think it means we care about the characters in discovery, and I think it means we care about the characters in DS9 because they're given this much focus. And essentially, like series 7 is one long soap opera. With galactic consequences, but it's their characters that we're here for, really. All right, it's time for us to choose our next Star Trek episode. And so I'm here on the Randomiser at Untitled Star Trek Project com slash Randomiser, and I have chosen 2 series. Okay, I'm excited. So they are the 1st 2 series of the Kurtzman era. So Star Trek Discovery and Short Treks. Okay. these usually go quite well together. Okay, all right. Let's do that. So let's see how it works. You haven't been to Kurtzman for, oh, good 6 episodes now, I think. Yeah, yeah. We've done a reasonable bit of 90s strike and a quick excursion into the original series. So let's see how we get on. Now the big problem here is that I'm not very good at episode titles. So this is Star Trek Discovery series one, episode 14, So it's the 2nd last episode. Possible, we are still in the mirror universe. I can't remember. The war without the war within. Okay. I don't remember anything at all about that That series is so serialised, though. It's actually a bit hard to tell where exactly we are there, so I'm going to press one again. I think that's the episode where all the Mirror Universe stuff comes to a head and then the last episode, isn't it? Where I think they chip back it. yeah Yeah, I think that's it. Oh, that might be where Lorke gets killed and stuff. All right, no. I think it's the one where Lawker and Jojo have a massive punch up and he dies at the end. He falls into the incinerator thing, the reactor. All right. Only way to go. So good. so great. Well, she is too. Yeah, she is, but he's the sweatiest captain of them all. He's awesome. Right. You love a best... Oh, speaking about overwrought things and people's mother, the next one is series two, episode 10, the Red Angel. So that's obviously about the mother coming back. We need to do series 2 because that's our Curtisman season, you've got issues with, and I want to hear what you've got to say. Yeah, it does irritate me a little bit that season, but it also features Anson Mount as Captain Spock. Yeah, yeah. And hotspot as well. Hot is incredible. Yeah, you know, I, like I said, I watched Star Trek Beyond last night and I think I like Ethan Peck better than Zachary Quinto. And I do think Zachary Quinto is good. Like I think he's good casting, but Ethan's a lot prettier. What do you reckon? The Red Angel? I'm going to press it again. Okay, seriously. yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Series 4, episode 4 all is possible. I have no idea. So this is actually the one where Tilly leaves, uh, or it's her last episode. No, she's back a bit and she will be back next year, but it's her last episode as a regular and it is such an incredible Star Trek episode. It's so Star Trek-y. It could have just been a Star Trek, the Next Generation episode. It's so crazily Trad. Really fun. No, there's something that you and I do when we choose these random episodes as I hype up all the 90s episodes and you hype up all the Christmas episodes. Disappointment abounds. So we've done enough 90 straight for the time being. So I'm pressing it again. Okay, we'll definitely do this one. I can't remember exactly where we are, but it is season one episode 12, vaulting ambition. I think that's the mirror universe as well. I think it might be in the Mary universe by then. There'll be campness and action. Torture machine. Probably a lesbian or 2 as well. Yeah, yeah. That's the normal way these things. What do you think? That sounds absolutely delightful. All right. We'll do it. Let's do it. You've been listening to untitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford and Nathan Bottomley. We're online at untitledstar trekproject.com where you can find links to our Twitter, Facebook, and YouTube channel. Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Sisrin, and the theme was composed by Cameron Lamb. This episode was recorded on the 30th of August 2022 and released on the 16th of September. We'll see you next time for Star Trek Discovery, vaulting ambition. Okay, I'm going to check it, but it's a bad idea, fighting ambition. vaulting because I think that's the one. Oh, was he one before? Faulting ambition. Discovery. Is the vaulting ambition a quote from Macbeth? I don't know, but Jammer gives it 3 out of four. Bloody hell. He hates everything. Faulting ambition is an entertaining. An entertaining hour. Burnham, mirror universe version of herself, and Philippa Giorgio. Oh my god, it's going to be amazing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's got cousin Michelle in it. Wait a second. why is that taking so long? Vaulting. The production, design and costumes aboard, Emperor Giorgio's palatial flagship, the Charon are impressive. Hmm. Wow. Standing to talk about. We'll get to talk about our very different reactions to serious ones. Yeah, because the only one we've done, the only one that we've done is the really good one that everyone likes. Marvellous. Yeah. Yeah, timely to make. Strange mango, mango, man. Yeah. That one. Okay, all right, let's do that. And we've got 2 stametses and we've got Birkham, Burnham and Lorca awesome. There's ash, pretty, pretty, pretty tall ash. Yeah. And it'll be, it'll be a really, I really want to talk about how this is the point where Brian Fuller's ambitions for discovery have been completely jetsisoned. And they've just said more or less just go, cinema, alternative universe and all fight each other. You know, that'll be fun. But don't you think, like, I think that there is, there's a thing there because we see the Federation, abandon its principles, and start to fight the war in, in a very kind of real politic kind of way. DS noise or way. And then we get catapulted to a version of the universe where that has just completely happened and the Federation is just an openly white supremacist, you know, racialized thing. And then they go back and then they go back and make the right decision. And because I think that, I think that, um, Discovery Series one is about America's reaction to 9-11 initially, and, and, you know the anxiety of the fact that America's been at war for like 20 years conducting wars in the Middle East and stuff like that, um despite having this, you know, liberal kind of, you know philosophy. And then, and then, then we're in Trump World, and, you know, we're just got Locke saying, make the galaxy great again, and, and we've got, I've got to watch this episode with that in mind. So this is where Donald Trump going to take us to the trumpet. Yeah. And because we know that they think about that because that's basically where Picard series 2 goes, isn't it? Like the world's about to tip into fascism. I mean, it's where the 1st episode of Strangely Worlds goes. It's a thing that they're interested in. so I think that's what's happening. But I think if that, I mean, typically smart reading from you. But I think that all occurred somewhat accidentally. Because I know I know the series started with a very different direction to where it ended and they were scrabbling about a bit in that 2nd half of that season and they pulled it together clearly, but... Yeah, but I think it'd be quite interesting to talk about that because I'm going to research Brian Fuller and see what happened and have a little bit about that. interesting isn't it?