Magic to Make the Sanest Man Go Mad

Hey, Joe. Hi. So, tonight, we're watching one of my favourite Star Trek series and that is Discovery series one, Fight Me. And we are watching what is, I think, probably its most popular episode, which is episode seven, Magic to Make the Sanest Man Go Mad. They have very stupid titles in series one of Discovery, I think. I think they have very stupid tiles throughout the entirety of discovery, if I'm honest, but this is one of the more more idiotic ones, sort of baroque ones. Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, original Trek has things like Plato's stepchildren and who mourns for ad and eyes and all sorts of sort of misguided you know, attempts at being poet. Oh, there's nothing more pretentious than a DS9 title. Wrong's darker than death or night. In the pale moonlight, you know. There's some of them in Latin. Well, I'm not even going now. I'm not even gonna try and say that. And this season does also have a Latin title. One of the episodes in series one of Discovery has a Latin title as well. This is a very strange series because this is series one of a show that is basically positioning itself as the new original Star Trek for the 21st century. And so it set in the same time period. It updates it with a new look. It doesn't attempt to be consistent with the original look of the original show, and it is kind of the flagship show for a kind of new type of Star Trek. And something weird happens. It all goes horribly wrong at some and we end up somewhere quite different from where we started. Can you believe that there were people out there complaining that this didn't have the aesthetic of the original series. Like, can you imagine if they brought out Strange New Worlds? Oh, was it last week? And, you know, and it was cardboard sets and a bunch of flashing lights, you know. I think we've talked about this before, but there is a sort of weird tendency in Star Trek fandom for some people to appreciate a new Star Trek episode or series only in as much as it is consistent. It tells us more about the world that is lovingly chronicled in the pages of memory alpha and not on whether it's necessarily an entertaining series. And one of the things right out of the gate, that 1st two-part episode of Star Trek discovery really is sort of frontloaded with incredible visuals. You know, you've got Michael doing that spacewalk and landing on that sort of Klingon artefact and all sorts of weird things that you know, you don't quite know what they are. You know which one got me when I was like, boy, boy, boy, we're not in TNG land anymore. Was that shot of her in the prison with the force field? Yeah, in space. I thought that was incredible. I was like, wow, this is cinematically good. And it's special effects that enable a type of peril that wouldn't have been possible in a previous iteration of Star Trek, because you just couldn't have realised it. And so they were using it not just for spectacle, but to open up the storytelling possibilities. And I think that's part of the magic of this show. And for me as well, discovery is very political. And one of the things I've noticed is with the live action Star Trek. So we've had Discovery, Picard, and now Strange New Worlds. Each one is more overtly, more obviously political than the last. But it starts here. And I've said before, series one is about America at war. We're now at war with the Klingons. Can we stick to our principles and it comes from an America who had been in the middle of one of the longest wars of its history in Afghanistan after 9-11. And then uh, it ends in this sort of weird hallucinatory Trump universe uh, with, with, with cousin Michelle as the emperor. And all the while. That was where I saw this whole series, season just fell off the rails. I mean, it was, no, don't get me wrong. I much preferred it because it was more fun and comic book and colourful and ridiculous and action-packed, but I was like, hang on a minute. This is not where this season was heading. And we know that as well because Brian Fuller, who was the creator of Discovery, an absolute plan. I think it was supposed to be an anthology series, wasn't it? Every year was going to be like a different time period. ironically enough, that's practically where we headed eventually, wasn't it? But like, at this point in the season, well, this episode we're talking about today, he was still involved, heavily involved, you know? I think it was somewhere in the middle of the season where I still don't know why. I've never really read up on it, why he was summarily executed from Star Trek because he'd had a long, like a long journey. He was involved in Star Trek Voyager quite a bit, an enterprise. He'd owned his stripes. So I'm not sure what happened there. But this episode is deliberately standalone, isn't it? And I took a peek at memory alpha and it was the only episode really, that they specifically wrote to be a standalone Star Trek episode where they said, let's just have fun and a crazy sort of colourful adventure that has character stuff running through it. Yeah. This feels very DS9 to me, this episode, actually, do you know? It's that sort of the arcs are there. Yeah, it's kind of doing its own thing. And I think that's why I like this episode very much indeed. Because you know me. I did not season one of Discovery did not go down well with me as well. It was pushing against everything I recognised Star Trek to B. And I kind of acknowledge now that's not a bad thing and I think it clawed back from some of those excesses. You think that's a bad thing. I think that's a good thing. Yeah, we've talked about the fact that I think series 2 is the series one apology tour where they kind of set it all down. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right. And Captain Pike will forbid them from swearing on the bridge and all of that sort of stuff. And I, you know, look, I think it has things to say for it, but you know, series one is about, is about America after 911 and series 2 is about space anomalies. And let's be fair, series 3 and 4 are also about space anomalies. The politics is back at least in series 3 and 4 because you're in a post-Trump isolationist world where no one trusts one another and you know, all of those issues that then arise in Picard and kind of arise in Strange New Worlds, from what I've seen of it. You know, those political issues are all back, which is partly why I'm here. Um, can you please, what is the title of this episode again? It's such a mouthful. It's magic to make the sanest man go mad. Oh, a loaded bollocks. Anyway, this episode, I'll just refer it as this episode was, you know, we just talked about the incredible visuals in Discovery season one. This was a money saver, and I read that in memory after today as well. It was just like, we've got a set. we got to do a bottle show basically. Yeah, yeah. Because we are we are splashing the cash a little bit. But it means that it's kind of tight, they go with a premise, which is, you know, they know they can do a time loop. you know, Trent's done it before. Every genre show has done a time loop episode. But it means as well, we're in like a tight location. So we're focussing on the characters in an, I would say, in an unusual way at this point, and I really love the character work in this, and that's what surprised me going back to it. I like none of these characters when I watch this 1st season. But actually, I was watching this and there was lovely moments for Tilly. There's a great story for Burnham in this. Who is such a different character these days. completely different. Like she's she's dropped all of that Vulcan kind of robotic performance and now she's giving her much more warm and natural. And, you know, she's been through stuff and we kind of get why. But she's in a very different place here to where she was. We'll talk about that. Yeah. So do you think we should go in? Yeah, I'm ready. All right. I will count us in five, four, three, two, one, and we're off. So we're previously on Star Trek Discovery. Gosh, that ship looks beautiful. How many episodes in are we at this point? This is episode seven. Oh, okay. Okay. But they're short seasons, aren't they? So this is what, 2 thirds through the 1st season? It's about halfway through. The 1st season's a bit longer, I think, than they originally anticipated. Generally speaking, these days, the series, uh, you know, the news shows like Picard and Strange New Worlds, a 10 episode series, but this is, um, this tends to come in at 13. But this is quite a long season, I think. His ash. So we're getting the backstory for Ash, who is very, very beautiful. Klingon prison. Yep. Here we go. I wonder if that could have any meaning in the future. Could do. So again, the credits are super different as well. It's really funny, like Michael's performance is completely different. They redo the credits every year and the cast keeps changing. Yeah, I noticed that as well because the robotic character on the bridge. I remember the episode where she departs. Yeah, she's in this as well. And all of the characters that get a bit more focussed now, like Detma and that. There's, there's, there's, um, uh, Reese is at the party and it took me a 2nd to recognise him. The those characters are absolute scenery in series one. And I think that that was always the intention. The intention was that we would get a Star Trek series where the main characters weren't just coextensive with the bridge crew, that we would have characters who... I don't think it's as planned as much as that, though. They were like, okay, come series 4 with these characters are going to have a lot. No, no, they were absolutely not planning that. There was a point where this was completely in flux because of the mad conflict that was going on behind the scenes. I think there was a lot of scrabbling around and let's just get this made. I think so, but I think that he's, it was always their intention to be different from a Star Trek series. Most Star Trek series have just a group of main characters who are the bridge crew. Yeah, but and they're completely defined. All those 90s stories, they're completely defined by the end of the 1st or 2 part, you know, the pilot. Whereas with this, we don't even reach the ship until episode four. Is it 3 or four? I can't remember. Yeah, yeah. So great. Tilly. I actually think this is one of the things that I like least about Discovery, which is these long speech. I think we make fun of them in... Yeah, it's the speeches where they're talking about their feelings and it's over, you know, lots of montages of characters, you know going, giving each other moon eyes. That was pretty funny with Stamets coming in and, you know, Stamets has sort of established a sort of grumpy arsehole earlier on. And now he's like taking a lot of weed and he's like super relaxed because he's taken the, he's got the darting. It wasn't until this episode, but I liked him at all. Before this. I just got one arrogant shit. He's supposed to be. And I think it's better. You know, just the warmth in series 3 and 4 of discovery in particular, among all these characters is so enjoyable, but it's a kind of nice idea. And I think they probably do it in Star Trek, the next generation to try and have just a little low-level conflict. All right, here is the best party in Star Trek. I disagree. There's beer pong. Actually, I think it's, there's Reese, is that Reese? Yeah, it is, but she's kissing him. I'm afraid. I'm sorry. I still, I maintain the best party in Star Trek is Jazz Sea's hen party, where she has a naked man dancing and singing. She slaps her mother-in-law around the face. She gets pissed and ends up in bed with Morn. That is the best party in Star Trek. But I actually mean, this is actually the one that looks like an actual party that you might go to, not a space party of some kind. They haven't done anything like this since, have they? No. But we haven't seen anything like this since this. I really like it. And, and, you know, like, for me, like, I'm a 53 year old man. I think I would only probably last half an hour at this party and then I'd want to go home to bed or something or, you know, telling you, I'd be pisses are far flirting with all the men. I'm telling you. Hip hop. Oh, and this is so fun. The thing about Tilly going through a musician face. Like she normally face soldiers. And I think at some point, is it ash starts? Yeah, it's Ash giving this patriotic speech. And her reaction is, I think my soldier thing is kicking back in. Oh, there's Demer. I just saw De wrote the poem. Yeah, yeah, that was there, but Reese was there before playing Beer Pong. Yeah, there she was. This party took 4 days. They were having this party for 4 bloody days behind the scenes. Look at that. Ash is so attractive, holy crap. And he's so pretty. Her taste in men is incredible. I'm telling you. It gets even better later on, don't you? Yeah, yeah. Book is attractive. But I had never really noticed that. They're so not incredibly tall he is. That they, well, I mean, I do want to talk about the twist coming up that he's in fact a Klingon and all the nonsense that occurred there because I just, I think it makes a bit of a mockery at some of this. Well, except what happens later on? Except that what happens later on, like we discovered that Ashley's still a real person, despite what happens, you know, that he isn't just a surgically altered Klingon. And we've had surgically altered people all along in Star Trek. So that is a thing that was always possible here at sort of a building. Has he come good at the end? Nothing to remember. He comes good and he's a good he's a good bloke. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. instrumental in the finale. Is it this finale or series two? He's all the way through series 2, but he doesn't go with her to the future. But he nearly does, I think. And they kind of break up and things, but I just think he's just super pretty. Oh, doesn't he end up? He actually ends up with that. Oh, man, I used to know her name, the Klingon woman, who was Vox kind of girlfriend who becomes a pretty cool character. I know who you mean. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he ends up with her. Oh, look, Stammets and I think this is a lovely couple, obviously. Yeah. Are they both game real life? Yes. Yes. Yep. Okay. Yeah. I think that would have been a couple, right? No. Yeah. I think we hear their backstory in this, don't we? We find out how they met. Yeah. Yeah. And that's actually great that in this time loop thing we have time for, um, stammets to just narrate that to burn them. And it's just a straight up, gives me telling the story of how we met, and I really, really like it. Oh, look, and he really liked about... Jason Isaacs. Oh, he's amazing. He's amazing. I kind of I kind of feel like he was wasted later on as well unfortunately. But I think he'd only ever signed on, hadn't he to do a little bit. I think so. Look, I think he's really really good. And I do like the idea that the captain of Discovery is kind of like being the, you know, professor. What is it, the stupid Harry Potter thing? Defence against the dark arts? You know, it's a different person, each book, because something happens to them. And that sort of happened here. You know, we've gone from... We say, calm it down now, though. Jesus. They can't keep up with a captain for 5 minutes. I think we've settled on Michael. Oh, yeah, of course we are, yeah. Yeah, of course she's the main character. Yeah. You said to me, you said to me with discovery that it was great that you didn't have the, yeah, the main character as the captain of the ship, but they've completely have gone there now, haven't they? No, no. Well, because they've turned it into a standard Star Trek show and now that they've done that, the only way. CGI, that CGI creature there, you know, looks a bit dated now doesn't it? A few years ago. There's a little bit, although I think there are some shots where where, see, that's obviously CGI, um, But it's not bad. We are never those people, are we, sir? That close-up was critical. Special effects. I love this outfit. Like, so, yeah, it's very strange. I didn't know. I don't know, but it's got a sort of a... isn it? It's the helmet. Like, it's like the rabbit in Donny Darko. You know, like, I think it's got that sort of vibe. There is something. There's something very, very, very original Star Trek about the whole conception of the character of Harry Maud. and he's absolutely defeated in a completely classic series Star Trek way in this episode. Oh boy, are we going to talk about that? But, um, I think, um, I think what's the actor's name? Rain Wilson. He's given an incredibly good film. a really, really good actor. He is charming and charismatic. I cut above anybody in this cast at this point. Your eyes are just drawn to him whenever he's on the screen. Well, I think he's probably the biggest name in the show at this point. Um, okay, you know, Jason Isaac. Going back to Jason Isaacs very quickly. Yeah, because that to me is the representation of how this is not doing what Star Trek would normally do because the captain is very often the most reassuring character in the show, you know, brings the team together, sacrinoble sacrifices, blah, blah, blah. Well, he's not introduced until, what, episode four? And immediately, some years off and he's in shadowy rooms with weapons and he's doing terrible things. I really, really liked that. But the twist that he was just from some alternative universe. Oh, come on. Well, you know, but I actually really like, oh, they've just they're about to explode. Yeah, this is the cause and effect of the time loop, isn't it? You know, the ship's going to blow up. So I really like Cause and Effect, and one of the reasons that I liked it, originally the reason that I liked it was it, each time loop coincided with an act of the show. So it went from ad break to ad break. And so every ad breaker, you have a cliffhanger at the ad break of this sort of TV, not this kind because it's streaming, but, you know, like, and so every ad break, the enterprise would pop. And then we'd come back from the ad breaker, we'd be in the card playing cards. But the way this is told, this can be told more economically because it's being told to an audience of people who know how these time loops were. Yeah, we just wouldn't have the patients to do it in the same way now, where we're watching the same sequence of events over and over again with just little different details or people discovering things slowly. Have a look at this. See, we stop in this, in this thing before the lift, and we expect Stammets to run into them at that point. And the camera's almost waiting for Stammets to run into shot but... It's kind of looking around. Did you see it? Yeah, it's kind of like where it starts. Yeah, and now he's turned up. And now they just sort of tell us the bits that are different and then we get to realise how many loops they've been. It's not just the loops that we're seeing, but it's been happening over and over again. You know what's interesting? The biggest interesting difference between this and cause and effect is, is that obviously they're aware of the time loop throughout all of this and they're constantly trying to find a solution. Whereas in course of effect, it's the whole narrative is about them discovering they're in a time loop, essentially. Well, it's only, it's only, yeah, that's true. Whereas here you've just got Paul who knows because Paul is experiencing it. But like you said, you have got a, you've got a cuts in the chase now because we know all the cliches. Here's what I like about Lorke here. So he doesn't give a shit about the Gormaganda. He's not interested. I don't care. I don't care. You know, he gets told that they have to transport it to a, you know, a zoo or something like that because it's really rare. And we discover they're really rare in the 31st century or whatever, where they end up in discovering. Yeah, so he doesn't give a shit and he says, just get on, you know just get it out of my thing. And then later on he calls it a fish. And like, Saru, has to explain to him. Well, it's not a shooter. whale isn't a fish, you know. And it's like, just I would have liked him to stick around, you know. Yeah, I think his character. Imagine him and Georgia on it all the time. My God. would be amazing. And the very few scenes they get together in the Mirror Universe are absolute gold. I'm taking it. Oh he's tall. But what is what is different between cause effects in this as well is that they use the time loop as a way of doing a character exploration of Burnham and the fact that she's never been in love? And the fact that she doesn't really know how to communicate with men and I think it's really lovely how she kind of learns as each loop goes along. And then she starts using that as a way of bringing Ash closer to her. So so they can bring down mud. It's very clever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I like that too. And that is sort of a standard thing of time loop things, isn't it? Because you get a do over. And so you kind of fuck up the 1st time and you get to do it properly. And it's usually, you know, you think about, um, Groundhog Day, you know, where you eventually get to get it right and there's often a romantic kind of thing, uh, that... you know with these timeloop episodes. I do wish like in this, Harry Mudd is like, okay, we're in a time loop. I can behave appallingly. I can go on the bridge and shoot people. I can blow up the ship. I can do whatever. But it's almost like the villains that do those things. I want a time move episode where one of the heroes is like, oh this is my chance. I can behave. I can literally do whatever I want But, 0 no, actually, Richard Dean Anderson does it in the Stargate one. He grabs hold of Samantha Carter and snogs her in front of the starcage. you remember? I've never watched Stargate or even heard of it. Oh, okay. But doesn't Michael Kiss Ash in this and then that gets erased? They never remember it, but their 1st kiss is in the loop. And I think it's partly because she's aware she's in a time loop that she's willing to hazard it, you know, uh, He's having so much fun now, isn't he? He's literally loving every 2nd of this. But is it simply the fact, because, like, he comes across as being this old, just smart bloke. I don't know, I think he's got some arts, but it's simply because he's done this loop so many times. He knows the ship. He knows the people. He knows how they're going to react. And that's why that's how they can characterise him as brainy as he is. Yeah, well, the same thing. Like, I think that's made explicit because doesn't Ash talk about how he brags about defrauding a bank or robbing a bank on Beta Zed um, and Ash says he must have had the time loop there and then just learned how to do it because he couldn't have done it otherwise. So has he created the time loop? Does he have a device that creates time loops? Yeah, so he has a time crystal, which is a thing. That's so fucking TOS, is untrue. Yep, it's in a real trick. And it will come back later. It's super important in series two. Because I think isn't it the time crystal that enables Pike to see his future? So there's a time crystal in that episode. That sequence was extraordinary. I'm hoping they're leaning into that a bit in Strange New Worlds you know. I have nothing to say. I've seen Strangely Worlds, but you haven't. Oh, could I ask a question about this spore drive and target grades and all this bizarre stuff that occurs down in engineering and discovery? Is that still going on now? Is it still what we're using? Yeah, we still use the spore drive. We don't have the tardigrade. At this point, he has tardigrade DNA and a sort of implant that, um so he used to have to be kind of get a needle in him, but instead he's got this implant that, um, that Carl was made for him. Now they use programmable matter and he just sticks his hand in and book can do it as well because he's... We're pushing away from all this experiment. We're going a bit more normal Star Trek than are we with the technology these days. Well, I mean, I kind of think it makes sort of sense. I thought that woman had her shirt off for a 2nd but she doesn't... He's doing that bizarre thing again, Nathan. you know, with stomachs. doing that. Bizarre season one of all tricks where they have people behaving out of character before we even know the characters, you know? Yeah. Although, I think I think that we establish pretty quickly that Stamets is a bit of an asshole. And by this point... Yeah, yeah. So we've had... Do you know what? It means, it means you get scenes like that, wonderful scene with him and Tilly, where I think it's season 2 where they sing the David Bowie song and it completely is some virtual expectation and it's so lovely, you know. Yeah, I think that's adorable. There is a scene early on too, where both of them say this is so fucking cool. Like Tilly and him, I think, and they kind of bond over geeking out of it. Besides, there it is. there's Saru. technically it's not a fish sir. So funny. Yeah, do watch your nest, doesn't he? It doesn't get much to do. No, um... It's nice looking pretty. I think Jason Isaacs is pretty, you know. Oh, yeah, I do too. I think he's totally handsome. he's sort of super sweaty in this show as well. I like the fact as well, although it's nice that mud like steals from his superstore of evil weapons, doesn't he? Yeah, gets that fabulous purple ball. Well, because there's that gaunt skeleton in his, in his, um, weird kind of armoury thing that he has. Yeah. So, So I like, I think the thing I like about Lorker here is that he is just openly the opposite of a Star Trek captain. He's not interested in the Gormagan. He's not interested in an explanation. He deliberately calls it a fish to antagonise Saru probably, or because he doesn't give a shit because he's not interested in knowledge and science and things. Do you think they were deliberately pushing against all of these trek cliches? like they were doing it on purpose? Well, I think to see if this franchise could come and be mattered into a very different shape. I think that I think that they have those 2 big character mysteries which are where does Lawker come from? Like what's his deal? Why is he such an asshole? And who is Ash, you know, and they don't quite ever do that again and their, you know, the suspense around it, I think, is actually a lot better than the payoff, and that's not from the case with television. yeah. And it is, that was fun to speculate, you know, as we were watching it. I think that I knew that Vok was Ash, um, I remember at the time there was a lot of people talking about that. Yeah, there was a lot of people talking like saying, oh, you know he's been an acting on prison a long time. He's got the same voice. He's got that sort of tenor voice in both roles. Is it, is it, the same? Is it the character we met in the 1st series, the Klingon we met in like in the 1st scene? Is it him? The white Klingon, the one who, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it is clever. It is clever. It's the same actor. Again, it's like, it's like, um, they're kind of now we're getting to a point where we're on the ship and we're building a crew and then they're literally going to wrench one after another. I'm like, oh, this was very sweet where she said, look on Paul's face because we don't hear it until he says it back to her in the next loop. She whispers it into his ear and he just looks heartbroken. I'm so sorry. She said something like, I've never kissed a boy or something like that. But what she actually says is. Yeah, right, it is heartbreaking. Yeah, she'd never been in love. And that's why the party is the perfect place to open this because you've got Tilly slightly pissed, absolutely, you know, being a huge hornbag and talking about how much she wants to have sex with the musicians and you've got Michael who's never been in a relationship. Look at the gaunt skeleton in the background. Fantastic, isn't it? Look at it. Not the herogen and their skeletons. That's amazing This scene too, where he just repeatedly kills life. This is the best scene in the episode, I think, and the way this is shot. So we're constantly behind him as he goes into the room and kills Jason Isaac's character over and over again. It is so brilliantly directed. There's no cart. We're constantly dropping frames. The camera's changing directions all the time. He kills him in different ways. Bella's name, he does the music. Jeff Russell. So Jeff Russell says, in a quote on Marie Alpha, that he went back and watched the TOS episodes and he was determined to bring in Mud's theme from the original series into this moment. Yeah. But it's purely comedic and massively over the top. And he said he tried and he tried and he's like, no, he's walking around killing people. I cannot put this like... He's playing over it. So he just created his own theme. It's like a hot theme. Yeah, yeah. And this is the best thing about time loops, isn't it? You can murder whatever you want. You can blow up. you can do all those things that you can't normally do. which is fab. Oh my god. Tilly is such a good time, girl, and she just spotted a hard time. Go over there. Go away. This is a whole man. Nathan, I'll be there in a heartbeat. telling you. That's the great thing about Tilly too. It is 90s Star Trek is populated by space people and they behave differently from normal people and they talk in much longer and more boring sentences than normal people. And I think this version of Star Trek is determined for them not to be space people. Now, you know, occasionally they fail and there's long speeches of a kind that no one would actually ever say. But there is a kind of more relaxed way that they speak in a more naturalistic way. just more naturalistic. Yeah. But I don't know. I question whether this is actually set in the thing or just aren't my cars. Yeah, that's what you want. Yeah. Well, not really. No, I want to be transported into the future. Well, look, you're looking for different things there. That's it. I want them to be people that I can relate to, oh, look, Detma's really getting into it there. like that when you end up just snugging someone on the couch. Oh, they're the best. I don't know. You wake up the next morning with a load of telephone numbers on your arm and loads of regrets. Oh, look at him. Look at Stabitz watching her being really awkward with him. Yeah, yeah, bless. Look at this woman. Get off in the corridor. I know, she's really tall. Now, look, back in TOS, remember, we're in the corridor and someone's stroking the wall. Skip forward to discovery and they're snogging against the wall. They're snogging. Yeah, yeah. Oh, did you see that man's arse? He walked by. very nice. The party's really got you going, I think. I was so sorry. Don't take much. Just one drink. I think there's something very interesting about... What's the fellow's name who plays Stomach? Um, Yeah, that guy. Yeah, Anthony Rapp. Him. I think there's something very, very interesting about his performance. There's like an intensity to it. you know, that I find really interesting to watch. And yeah, he's capable being extremely gentle and sensitive at times as well. Yeah, yeah. I think he's really good. I think I also think, you know, one of the things that I like is we get the discovery theme as a kind of as a slow dance here over this scene. So the music is the discovery theme. And I love the line. Would you let me lead? Like, she's so in control and so wound up and stuff like that that he says that. I think it's these scenes, yeah. These seems here, um, the dancing scene. This is kind of what I needed earlier. Yeah. Yeah, there's not enough time. of them of them bonding. Yeah. Yeah. Normally. And do you know what as well? Do you know something else I noticed about this episode? It's just having a lot of fun, you know? And I don't think there was a great deal of fun in season one either. There's a lot of action. There's a lot of emotion. You know, there's a lot of shock twists. There's a lot of drama, but it doesn't really relax often enough. I think it does more now, sometimes too much. I think, you know, like, I think there's, there's very Star Treky things in this, in a way that people kind of underestimate that this is a bit sillier and a bit campier than uh, some people would die. The ending is so great. Look how tall it is. Now she, no, wait, but she's getting close to him now, isn't she? So she can talk to you about the time loops and all that. But the way that shot, we see every detail of how that embrace forms itself. Oh, look, there's some ladies dancing with each other. But, you know, we see his arms around. Yeah, yeah, yeah. In the lighting in this scene as well. Yeah. It's getting pierced. Still is always pierced, I think, Joe. Honestly. Yeah, so she's getting close to him to get have the conversation about Maud. It's so, you know, Michael, like this. Do you know what they were all doing behind the scenes when they were filming 4 days of this laborious party scene? all playing ping-pong, apparently. Oh, that a ping-pong ball set up in the corner. Oh, well, they had peeping on the set for the for the beer pong that they were playing earlier. I think it's beer pong only with saurian brandy is my theory. Or something like that. Oh, I love the way you know the names that drinks. Maybe it's Tronia. People with Tronia. Did you know this episode was up for a Hugo? Yeah, I mean, that actually does happen sort of, you know, there aren't that many genre of shows around the place. Doctor Who frequently goes up for a Hugo. I'm not surprised because I think this is very good. And the thing that's good about it is, I think, what you identified earlier, the fact that it's not just a time. Oh, they're kissing for the 1st time. Oh, asshole. Isn't that hard? It's really hot. Jesus. Not like, not like... Not like those chase kisses. Remember that kiss between Tashiar and the fella in Yeste's Enterprise? Well, I was more thinking about, you know, Chief O'Brien and... Oh, God, no. Although, when, when, when Cisco Snob Cassidy, that was pretty hard as well. Yeah, yeah. Are we really rating the snogs of Star Trek here? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's one of the reasons why Kurtzman Trek is superior 90s track is the sexiness. The hotness. The scenes between her and uh, is it book, booker? book? Yeah, book. It's like softcore porn. I'm getting you. Yeah, no, that is smouldering. Right, here we go. Another loop. He's an awesome on the shift. Oh, yeah, so this is this is happening over Ash explaining the thing. Isn't that it? So Ash is explaining about the betazoid prison that he managed to. And then we see him do it. We see him avoiding people because he knows everyone's movements. He knows where they're coming. and so on. Yeah. That's really well done, actually, because having them just stand there at a party, talk about that at length we've been sort of ridiculous. And this is, it's a little bit more like a heist as well. Remember, he's trying to pull off a heist and so we get a description of the sort of things he can do. It's parked with character moments though, isn't it? It's like I said, it's basically everything I'm looking for in this show. I was just thinking about causing an effect again for a 2nd. The tone of the 2 episodes is so different. This is genuinely just having a blast with the concept, is it? Whereas there's a lot of like disquiet and suspense and like... It's doing the fish line again. Well, we're going to hear it many times. We're in a loop. Yeah, the it's very staid and very stagey and it is very clever and it takes advantage of the medium, you know, show with ad breaks. So to have the time loop coincide with the ad breaks, I think is genius. And they only break it in the last or the 2nd last iteration, which spans to... Well, and because with that, the loop is pretty much the same every time and the suspenses, we know where we're getting to if we don't get out of it. This ship's going to blow up. Whereas this plays about, it's different every single time, isn't it? Lots of... Well, I think diversions. Storytelling, you know, we come from a world that's full of universe, it's full of multiverses now. There's no one solid core narrative, you know, and so the storytelling here is much sloppier and much more makeshift, I think. I like it. Lanky. Well, I always felt like they literally just sat in a room and went, right, what fun things can we do with this loop? Ideas, writer's room. Let's go. What is that robot all about? You know. I never quite figured it out. Oh, there's an episode about her. Her final episode. Well, isn't that the one where she leaves where she finally gets some development, you know? Well, because she's scenery in this season and absolutely designed to be that. And so she ends up just turning into a character in the final episode. We don't even know what. No, it's Marvel... The animated series where we were like with Arax and Umres. We were like, oh, they've got these fabulous alien creatures. We got to a point now in live action trek where we can pull it off. Oh, wait a sec, we're going to kill Ash instead of Bryce. Is that what's happening? So what's that little purple ball? What does it do? Oh, it just sort of kills you in a really super painful way? and just leaves your face behind so you can do one last facial expression before you? Oh, man, she has to watch it. Yeah. Oh, but they're looking at each other. Don't die. Oh, please, you know if Paris is going to depart on discovery, even if they're dying, they're going to look at each other longingly. That's what they show us. But I like that because now she has to, she can't solve it this timeline. She can't solve it in this loop, but she can't. So surely she's in her stomach has to tell her. Oh, she does know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Stamitz told her ages ago. So she knows we're in a loop. She's known that for ages. and no, hang on. There's logical inconsistency there then, because this has been looping again and again and again. So why does she... She keeps knowing. She, I don't know. No, because the narrative needs her to know at this. So now she knows going forward. Now she knows that he has to restart the loop. She can't win this time because Ash is dead and she doesn't want him dead. Is this the bit where she kills her, where she commits suicide? That's fabulous love that bit. Yeah, that's coming. that's coming when in Locker's office. I do want to say, like, whilst this is a really fun episode, there is a lot of like death in this episode. And it does have a bit of a sting to it. And I know we're not there yet, but that's why the ending felt so tonally jarring to me because we go from all this murder and explosions and love and maturity into some weird TOS pantomime at the last 5 minutes. I was like, oh, what the fuck is this? Well, it's got to explain how he turns into. It's his origin story. He's much more evil. And then he turns into an absurd fat panto villain. It went from being the smartest guy in the room to being hitched to this woman for being dragged off and I'm like, what? Well, that's Stellar. We've never seen Stella in real life in original Star Trek, but we do see all her Androids. I like it, because she goes through him, I think the party line's like, oh, Harry, you are a naughty boy. He certainly is. So hang on. Have we lost the Tardigrade at this point? It was on the ship for a little bit, wasn't it? And that was actually really good because it was the, can we torture an animal in order to make our ship run and our decision was no, we can't do that. And the animal does kill Tory v. Cylon from Battlestar Galactica. Remember her? She's the uh. Oh, wasn't she a dreadful character? Yeah, she literally will just come in the room. threaten people. Oh, yeah, and I was like, this cannot be a Starfleet officer surely. She, I mean, she comes back, I think. She may still be alive in the mirror universe. We certainly do see her again at some point, but she is... It was incredibly unsourtful, which is a shame because I'll tell you what, the actress was amazing. Really bad Star Galactica. The scene where she murdered. What was her name? took the baby off her and then opened the airlock and blew around her face. was incredible. So good. Anyway, we're not on talking about Bounstalka Max. Really good show. You know, I wouldn't mind a roguish character like Harry Mud, you know, joining the ensemble of this. They can all, they can be a bit serious at types, this car, you know. What book was that, but then they gave book the backstory of having had his total planet destroyed and he stopped being quite so fun. Well, they did do it, didn't they? Because then they had Giorgio come along and she was our morally ambiguous space bitch. She wasn't quite ambiguous, was she? She was just kind of really. Yeah, sorry. Just evil. She came good more times than last week. Yeah, she was, she had, she was a genocidal dictator with a heart of gold. Losing her. It was a sacrifice to the show, wasn't it? Losing her. Well, it was her. She did very well in that film. Everything everywhere all at once, which I thought was magnificent. I just saw a poster for that today. looks incredible. It's really good and there's a lot of Michelle in it, a lot of cousin Michelle, and she's supposed... But you know, when she also looked marvellous, was when she came out wearing that gold costume in the Mirror Universe. I started smacking everyone down with martial arts and lasers. I was like, oh, my God, this can't get any better. It's so good. And there we go. She's eating the thing. Just eating the thing. It's really not agreeing with her, right? I think it's dark matter or something, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, or it's just something spacing. Yeah, yes, that's it. It has that. A great purple effect where you basically solve. But now he has to run it through one more time because he wants to sell her to the Klingons. I have seen this cliche done before they, where people are like okay, so in order to outfox you. Well, Doctor Who just did it, didn't it? And even the garlic, we need to kill ourselves on this, on this loop. and then win the next time. What's nice as well? The parties take on a different tone now. There's like a desperate tones of the party, isn't it? Because I can't get away from here. Like, sorry, I can't flirt with you right now. I've gotta save the ship. And of course, the reason that we don't see her repeatedly being told by Stamets that this is a time loop is that as the audience we've seen that once, and so they don't need to screen that bit again, we just take it as red. Are we assuming this is happening every time now and then? Yeah, but we don't even think about it because this isn't a real time loop. This is a TV show TV episode. And so if she's told at one point in the episode, we just assume that she knows it all the way through. And I think that that's the right approach. I'll tell you why the ending was so jarring, is because I think up until that point, everything that narratively is going on, it's quite clever, you know, and I thought, oh my god, they're going to think a way out of this situation in such a brilliant way. And then now, come on, you're off to get hitched. I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it is literally you're off to go into original. TOS is coming to take you away to where you belong, rather than our gritty reboot, which is still kind of can. So just isn't too aware, is it? That's why it feels so weird Yeah, yeah. So it's about as far from TOS as you can get. But I mean, the preposterous outfit Stella is wearing a sort of 60 style frock that makes it look as if she's walked out of an episode of Star Trek, the original series. It's so great. It's so stupid. They should have done some really flat direction and everything just gone the whole Hulk, you know? So the Buran is another mystery isn't it? Or sort of. Oh my goodness. What is it? It was his previous ship, which only he survived and everything else got destroyed. Wow. We know what happened to those people. Yeah, he probably ate them. He doesn't reveal his colours, though, doesn't it, until... Until they're in the mirror universe. Oh, he forces them into it, doesn't it? right. pushes them into it. But not they don't know about it. Like it is just one more jump and then they end up in the mirror universe. And that's why, you're going to fight me on this, right? So come up me. Um, when we come out of the mirror universe about all that fun and the ending just felt so anticlimactic because we haven't been here for like 4 episodes and it was like, well, that's it. We going to wrap up the war for the end, season two. But I do like how they wrap up the war and they wrap up the war by just saying, no, we're not going to blow up, secretly blow up the Klingon home world and kill all these people. And... Is it the end of this season where they go like, I'm Starfleet. I'm Starfleet. Oh, kind of. Shit. They give a big speech and they get awards for being Starfleet. and I think that that's exactly it. Not seen anything as agonising as that scene in DS9 where they all go, ninos before the baseball match. awesome. I do think, you know what? I was thinking about this the other day. I do think this show was custom built for you. You know? I think it's, I think it's like beautifully made television and I think you really appreciate television that kind of pushes the boat out visually. I think it, um, it focusses on some like real emotion as well. And I know like in Doctor Who and things like that, that you like emotional arcs and I pushes it a lot, but you know. Um, I think it does complex storytelling. I think it has political illusions. I think it just has a lot of things that you love all witched in there together. I can absolutely see why you adore this. I think maybe the other reason I adore it is that it's a bit of a problem and there are times when it's not successful and that's... No, that's why you like this season because it's fucking contrary. I think this season's genuinely good. I think season 2 is a bit of a mess. I think the jump into the future was just like super weird, but it ends up being quite good. And I think... think is the best season today? I like the season a lot. This is a sentimental favourite. I think 4 is incredibly strong. And the reason... Yeah, so it ends. So, you know, there's a sort of mid-season break for a couple of weeks or whatever and then there's a run of episodes, maybe sort of 5 or 6 or 7 episodes, like the half the season. And they absolutely nail having an ongoing arc, a single ongoing mission, and doing something different each week in a satisfying way, and they absolutely get it perfect and the other thing. The other thing they do, and this is super weird for Star Trek, is some proper science fiction. It's so clever. It's really smart. I'm a huge fan. Yeah, I like a lot. Is it one episode? Oh, hang on. Sorry to interrupt you, but here we go. Stella. She literally looks like the woman that themed on the bridge in Spock's brain, didn't she? The purple. Oh, Harry. See, we see him pushed around, don't we? In original series? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But but he also then he creates like female automatons and things like that. It's a bit weird and sexist. But is it Android Stella who yells at him at the end of months women or something? I have to confess that I have seen them, but I can't remember them very well. I don't know, but the real seller is fabulous and we should have seen her again. Well, I don't think we've ever seen the real Stella. I think all we've seen is Android duplicate Stella. His ship is called the Stellar. I think we hear about Stella, but we never actually see that. I mean, he does it all, but turn to the camera painfully without wack, wack, kind of musical sting, doesn't it? Women. Women be crazy. Yeah, this man's dressed all in leather. I know. Basically a whip. Is it leather? Oh, it is... You are gonna be whipped. He's wearing a tie. We are laughing. It's fun. Don't get me wrong. It's fun, but it isn't part of the episode we've been watching. And look, all the discovery characters look a bit out of place. With all this, I'm like, oh. Yeah, these are super weird. So good. Oh my God. Did you see the look she gave Burnham when she was beaming out? This sort of coquettish look, like, what? Oh, it was a great ship as well. Oh yeah, yeah. Oh, here we go. Right, let's see what she's learned. Oh, are they going to keep? Come on, ask him out. Ask him out. Yeah, because Stamitz really wants them to get together because he's so tall. There's nothing more annoying than progress occurring in a high concept episode that's wiped out with a reset. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. But they know about it. Is it? It's not wiped out because Stamitz told them. Yeah. Well, plus they end up having whole sex anyway. Yeah, yeah. I'm a really good dad. Oh, that's so fun. Holy crap. Easy, Burnham. Like, they aren't together at the end, but they've moved closer to being together. There's a seed for the future. And they understand each other a bit better and... But as well, do you know what? Honestly, I think this is the 1st time I warmed to Burnham, that confession about never being in love and I was like, that's heartbreaking, you know. You know, it, I think, I don't really think that, like, I think they walk back this characterisation where she's sort of weird ass falcon sort of thing. And I think that that was the right thing to do, particularly as she becomes the captain as well. Um, And she's nothing like this now. Well, you know, you say with all the revisions in series 2, in series 2. She just cries a whole year. I swear to God. Yeah, that's it. Staring off camera crying. Yeah, because they discover that Sanequa is incredibly good at that. And so they just write her all these emotion things that she has to do. And then I couldn't believe. I think one of my favourite episodes of Discovery, and you're going to think I'm crazy is season 3, episode one. I know you love the season two, episode one. But season three, episode one, where they literally cut loose from everything they've done before. They're setting the scene for the burn. But her performance in that. It's like, it's worth it. She's so relaxed. Oh, that bit is amazingly funny. I'm telling you, where she trips. Who knew she was that good at comedy, eh? Because she's been so bloody serious before that point. Oh, that was delightful. That was absolutely... That's the sort of episode. I'd like to see more of in Discovery where they just take like a predictable concept and have a fucking ball with it, you know? I think that you would like the end of series 4 because it's a definite trajectory. It tells a single story, but each episode has a satisfying thing in it and is about people, like about their experiences. And it's really about Star Trek being Star Trek. And that's one of the things that occurred to me because Strange New World started this week, sort of just a few days ago as we record this, and it has kind of taken the mantle of being Star Trek. Yeah. There's no sort of heavy expectation on these other 2 established shows now to be, you know, the Star Trekiest Star Trek. Because it, I mean, it's in the title. It's from the speech in Star Trek, TOS and Star Trek, TNG, the Strange New Worlds to explore Strange New Worlds, seek out new life and new civilisations. Discovery does that at the end of series 4 in what is a really interesting way, a really impressively interesting way. You put me off this, you know, watching series four. You set me that clip of the Captain Archer Space Station with the edge of 5 music playing over it and I was like, no, I'm out. I'm sorry. So great. I love that so much. You know what? I'm convinced by other reviews, but obviously by your compelling argument as well. I will definitely put it on because you know what? The random eyes will only pick it soon, series 4 and I will have a clue what's going on. Yeah, that's true. That's true. But this is an anomaly, isn't it, in season one. And I think, okay, I'm this is a subjective opinion, but I think season one is written off. Overall, as an ambitious failure rather than a success. But I think this is a success within. Yeah, that failure. this is an episode that's far on all cylinders. I think that if it wasn't for series one, we wouldn't have what we have now, like it was successful on all sorts of levels, like just getting a Star Trek series produced, having it look as incredible as it does, having a mixture of kind of grittiness with sort of Star Trek goofiness and stuff, being proper Star Trek made in the 21st century. And I think they definitely achieved that. And then I think what's happened is, you know, the original goal that it would be an anthology series and that every year it would you know, you mentioned it before, that it would have a different premise and a different cast and stuff, a little bit like, say American horror story or something like that. I think that we're getting that and we're getting it by having a huge number of shows with reasonably short seasons that are only going to run for a number of years. So we've got that with 30 episodes of the card. Here is something set. you know, at the turn of the century, at the turn of the 25th century, starring an older Picard, and we get to see 3 adventures of him doing a thing. Oh, but I don't think Discovery is only going to run... No, like he's been renewed for five. I think he'll probably hit 7 like the other hits, possibly more. It's proven that it can reinvent itself successfully and be, you know, like we said, where it is now is not here. It's not in the same time period with hardly any of the same characters, with the same tone, with the same performances, you know. And yet it's still being made and still being enjoyed. Yeah. Yeah, look, I think that there'll be new series come along. I think, you know, there will be new different Star Trek series coming that will be, you know, that won't have the nearly 200 episodes or whatever that a 90 Star Trek series has. It just has a smaller run of episodes and does a different thing from everything else. And I'm so interested by that. I really like it. And while ever sort of paramount plus as business model demands that we have a new Star Trek episode every week, I'm kind of here for it. Well, you know what's great as well, is that because they are denser seasons. They're shorter and generally speaking, like a season has a narrative and things like that. In Kurtzman Trek, we don't end up with fucking bollocks, like some Rosa. And, you know, when they were churning out 24 episodes a year and they were like, right, 26 of these can be really good. The other half, you know, night terrors, you know, the game. Oh, no, you like that one. Sorry. move along home. you know, we'll just chat out any old shit. They watch it. They'll watch it, you know. But now, there's no there's no real scope for episodes like that now, is there? Yeah. They're all, they're all going to be competently made and um because kind of part of an overall story and that's just where Star Trek is now. Okay, it's time for us to choose next week's Star Trek episode and it's time for me to choose next week's episode, which is why he is on Untitled Star Trek project.com slash Randomiser, which has been newly updated for the new Star Trek landscape, which is that I have added Star Trek Strange New Worlds down the bottom. And I've left a place for eventual Star Trek, Elnor and Rios, which is something I have in development. Starshow Rios, honest to God, spoilers, bark. I still can't believe they wrote him out. I would have offered series 3 now if I'm honest. Yeah, it's Elanor's back, though. so it's fine. I told you. Did not say when we watched that episode. All right? I couldn't have taken Raffi being any more upset than she was about Rios. It made me happy that the writers gave for a little break at the end. She deserved that I love Raffi and she was pretty great in that it. Well, Nathan, I've decided to, obviously, it's my choice this week. So to commemorate, you know, the expansion of the untitled Star Trek Randomiser, that I'm going to select Strange New Worlds as the series that we're going to be randomly selecting from, okay? Okay. Now, you do realise that on the website, it says that this was recorded on the 11th of May and that I will go on to say that in the credits. So, what episode have you rolled on the 11th of May on the randomiser? Okay, so the episode selected by the randomiser is Strange New Worlds. brilliant. It's like the episode of Enterprise we did only plural. Amazing. Amazing. Silly kid. I can only imagine this is going to be a bit better than that though. Yeah. You know, I actually said that I was planning on pulling this trick so that we could watch the 1st episode of Prodigy because we did actually record an episode of this podcast after only one episode of Prodigy and Ed. But this is kind of a bit of a big deal because it is the new live action Star Trek spun off of series 2 of Discovery. And I think it's really interesting. You haven't seen it yet, have you? I haven't. No. And frankly, I'm pleased that you've asked us to pull off this trick because it's, I think I confessed it on Mike the other day that, you know, like, because I like to feel important. I refuse to watch things alongside other people and they're waiting until they, that's our old hat and then I watch it. This is going to force me to watch the 1st episode of Strange New Worlds, of which I am I'm gonna make a few predictions. Okay, all right. I think it is going to be visually arresting. I think the music is going to be extraordinary. Anson Williams, is that it? Who answered Williams's Potsey from? How embarrassing. What's his name? No, Hanson Williams was Potsey from Happy Days, but he did go on to direct a fair amount of Star Trek, actually. That's why his name came up. Yeah, so it's Mount. I think Anson Mount is going to be... Handsome Manson is going to be charismatic and wonderful. And there's, from what I've seen from the publicity pictures, It's going to be a huge array of colourful and exciting alien characters. Yes. Those are all fair predictions. And I also think as well it's going to feel very TOS. You've been listening to untitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford and Nathan Bottomley. We're online at Untitled Star Trek project.com, where you can find links to our Twitter, Facebook, and YouTube channel. Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceran, and our theme was composed by Cameron Lamb. This episode was recorded on the 11th of May 2022 and released on the 20th of May. We'll see you next time for Star Trek, Strange New Worlds, Strange New Worlds.