Devil’s Due

Hey, Joe. Hi. So, we are back aboard my first Star Trek series, Star Trek, the Next Generation, with a series 4 episode. It's series four, episode 13 Devil's Due, which has always been a bit of a favourite of mine. What did you think, Joe? I think that you've been a good influence on me over the years because I'm reliably informed that I wrote a review about this episode, many moons ago, where I was like, oh, this is absolutely ridiculous camp nonsense, you know, when wise Star Trek, the next generation. Not serious anymore. And now, after doing how many episodes with you, 180? I didn't say bloody hell. Bloody. We haven't wasted our life. Now I'm like, oh, this just isn't silly enough, man. Bring on the silly. My big issue with this is absolutely perfect original series episode and it's not an original series episode. It's our next generation episode where everyone's got to stick up their butt and not having enough fun. Yeah, I think that's absolutely right. So famously, this is like the child series 2, episode one of Star Trek, the Next Generation, an unused script that had been written for Star Trek phase 2 in the 70s. And in fact, one of the story credits goes to someone called William Douglas Lansford, who was nearly 70 when this episode came out. And so he must have been the person who wrote the treatment for Star Trek 2. And then, um, then the teleplay and the story treatment, the updated story treatment were by Philip Lasebnik, who has a story credit on Darmok, uh, which is, of course, one of the best Star Trek episodes, perhaps, in any series. This isn't one of the best Star Trek episodes in any series. But for me, it does that Star Trek, the next generation thing of being extremely high concept and memorable and having a real strong concept that you can explain just in a sentence and then just sort of does the procedural stuff. Perhaps it's a little bit too much that you described it before as average, and I think probably that's fair. But I do think it's lifted by a pretty great guest performance by Martin Dubois. She is having the best time in this, like, hands on hips, sort of wry smile on her face, clicking her fingers and making crazy stuff happening. I said to you, I just wish the other characters would meet her. And like I kept messaging you, saying, man, Shatner would have rocked this scene. So they're in Picard's quarters. If that was Kirk's quarters, he would have fucked her, right? Picard goes, I don't find this very amusing. You know, like, you know, you just want, and that's where the fun is, I think, is if they're playing off each other. Whereas I feel like she's playing and they're not. That's less fun to watch. Yeah, I think that probably everyone livens up a little bit in the final scene in the courtroom where Brent is having fun and finally Patrick is having some fun as well. But yeah, everyone is very stiff, I think. Even in that final scene, though, you take Brent out and you put Nemoy into that role, that would have been more fun as well. Actually, you know, when does TNG relax, because I thought they'd already relaxed, but clearly not. No. And I think probably it happens in fits and starts. When we were talking earlier, I compared this to the game, which happens a year later, less than a year later, is a similarly kind of comedic fun episode, but everyone is actually just sort of much more fun in it. And even though no one's sort of joking and there's no villain there's no, it's not sort of particularly cat, but everyone is being silly and going along with the bit. And I think it works really well. It's fun and everyone's kind of relaxed. Do you remember Nurse O'Gower and a turbo lift, having that? Yeah, awesome. you know, amazing. Wesley, you know, stuff. It was really good. Yeah, but here everyone is very, very stiff. And I think the worst bits are the bits where Picard is trying to use colloquial language to describe her job, you know, calling her a con man or a flimflam artist or whatever. It's a Star Trek Academy, isn't it? Yeah. It's amazing how stiff they are. And of course, by the time Kurtzman Trek comes along, Picard no longer talks like that. And by Picard series 3, the entire crew, the Enterprise. I mean, do you remember Riko? What is reintroducing? making pizzas in his garden? It's like, where's that? I think Patrick Stewart is the big problem here. And it's not like it's not a bad performance. I just don't quite think he gives what the script needs him to. And that is to have a bit of a knowing wink and to relax into the silliness of the idea. Um, I think he sort of sucks the fun out of the scenes. Yeah, that is a it's a shame. What do you think about Captain's Holiday? Because I think Captain's Holiday is a little bit like that. He's not great there either. He's, I think he, he wants to be this sort of, Patrick Stewart went on record to say, I will quit unless you let me direct and unless you let me fuck more. Well, have romances. Sorry. that's what he's saying. And yet when they give him those opportunities, he is so stiff. It is baffling because you compare them to the others. you know, um Janeway in brighter chaotica, you know, as queen of the spider people, she couldn't throw herself more into that role. She's like, I don't want to play chainway anymore. That's what she's thinking there. I mean, I think Captain's Holiday very much relies on the fact that Patrick is going to give that very stiff measured performance. And the contrast is him having all these wacky things happening to him. And remember, you know, Riker tricking him by giving him the hawk on to put in front of his beach chair and all of that. Like there is a very definite thing happening that that is a way of trying to get him in a situation which requires him to loosen up a bit. Here, here I think because it's so procedural. There is no loosening up. The one thing I do like about what he does here is that at no point is he threatened by Andra at no point is he in any doubt about what's happening. And so he isn't taken in by her. And I do like that. I think that is less fun than him rising to meet her. But I do think that it's an interesting choice. And I think there's just the one joke about his immortal soul, the one joke where he says my immortal soul might kind of depend on what you have to say to me now, Geordie. And I thought that that was a fun, if a bit of a pompous joke finally acknowledging that what if she really is the devil? Oh, when the devil turns up? Oh, look at there. Jesus. He's in our body stalking for fuck's sake. so weird. I can't believe they did that long shot. I mean, I would have just cut to the makeup. And that Klingon god. I mean, wonderful. that's great think that's awesome. That's really good. all over the place, isn't it? Yeah, wonderful. The bit where I really realised this was supposed to be like an earlier iteration of Star Trek was, how quick the ending is, is she could sort of go, oh, I've been arrested and just walks off and then they go. Whereas normally on Next Generation, we have a scene back on the ship, don't we, telling us what it was all about, and it doesn't even... just ends. That does sometimes happen on the Star Trek, the Next Generation. Sometimes you think the endings are a little bit just kind of a little bit too quick. I think everyone leaves the court, like leaves the set and leaves the court behind there and I think that's probably a reference to like Perry Mason or something like that. Like a, you know, like a classic era courtroom drama where the set gets vacated and all we have is the courtroom at the end. I quite like the end of this episode, I think. You know what it feels like to me. Actually, I said TOS. It feels more like it should be a T-AS episode. It's sort of 25 minutes. I mean, it would be dismal. Don't get me wrong. The animation would be terrible because we have some lovely match shots in this. We'll get there. Um, because, you know, didn't we have a story with a god that was posting the devil? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, the definitely was a good guy. I think you look better in the TAS episode if I want this. No, he was... Yeah. Yeah, so I didn't not have fun with this, but I just kept seeing another version of this that would have just been hilarious. And I think even Michael Piller says, I think that that original Philip, uh, Lebeznik. Yeah, yeah. Thank you very much. Script was a lot funnier. And I think it probably just dived into the premise more wholeheartedly than this. It's the procedural elements of DNG that's holding it. like the chains holding it back. Yeah, yeah. I think that's probably fair But I think we'll still laugh, though because I mean, I'll do some great quoting because she has some lovely lines. She's wonderful. I mean, oh, if you ever want to see Marina Service coming on to Patrick Stewart as well? opposite. David, she doesn't loosen up. Well, I mean, of course she knows, just like Patrick, I'm just going to get this over and done with really quick. So I also want to shout out to Tom Benco, who directs this. He also directed transfigurations and he has a story credit on the House of Quark and returned to Grace, but he worked as editor on 100 episodes of Star Trek, including Encounter at Farpoint and Endgame. So he's... Yeah, yeah. So he directed this. It's his only one of 2 episodes that he directs, but he has a really, really long association with the program and has done heaps and heaps of work on bringing it to the screen transfiguration is being quite creepy. Isn't that the one where La Forge turns in sort of that weird creature covered in all the sort of, no? No, I think it's, isn't it a late season 31 with the alien who turns into a glowy person and then disappears? That could be any episode of the next generation. That is encounter-part. Well, are you saying that we've got Tom Benco to blame for the generally dismal pace of 90s trek if he's in these things? You remember those action scenes and best of both worlds. Yeah, shoot, explosion, shoot. Probably. Let me guess, Tom Benko is not editing Kurtzman trick. Probably not, no. Well, I have to say, I didn't think this was badly direct. I mean, it was the usual sort of Yeah, yeah, yeah. direction. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I thought there was some nice lighting in the episode. I certainly think some of the effects work is quite good for the time. So I don't, you know, some of their makeup, well, let's talk about it, shall we? Yeah. All right. I think we should go in So okay. We'll still have fun. Oh, I definitely will. All right. I will count it in. Five, four, three, two, one and we're off. So it's our usual exterior establishing shot. I did wonder, you know, Nathan. If this actually was the episode with Audra, because it took us so long to turn up. Yeah, yeah. So what's going on here? I have no idea. So suddenly we're doing a play version of a Christmas carol, which is fine, and we have a ghost and is the ghost real? The big question is, can we believe our senses? And so thematically it does work with the rest of the episode isn't it? Because the thing is that the people of Ventax 2 and fuck, that's a great Star Trek Planet Name? As soon as I heard it, I was like, the neighbouring of Aridian free. Yeah, the Ventaxians of Ventex, too. It's a new mopper lower tax name. They've got a V and an X. Exactly. So it is that they believe that it's Andra because she fulfils the prophecies and, you know, Scrooge here knows that your senses can't be relied on, that they can be tricked. And so that's true. I was talking about the acting style. What's that about? I just think that we're having fun getting actors to talk about an acting style and to have control. Because God's so dense about it all, isn't he? Whereas Stuart, obviously, is their master. Well, I mean, because he talks about the method, like data talks about the method, right? And the method is, you know, like Picard calls it old-fashioned doesn't he? Like he calls the method old-fashioned, and certainly the method's old-fashioned, but the method is, you know, there's an American way of acting for TV, and there's an English way of acting for TV in the English way, is conveying information to the audience whereas the American way is trying to convey the reality of the emotion. And so Picard, who was doing British TV for the BBC in the 1970s was not using the method, he was using a much older version of, you know, a much older type of acting. And so to have him talk about the method here and say how old fashion duties is kind of cool, I think. I wonder, you know, if the English technique has sort of lasted though, rather than, you know, this made for TV, American acting that we are forced to watch on a regular occasion. I mean this doesn't really exist now, does it? No, and I think it, you know, when we watched when we were watching the 1st episode, when we were watching Holly Hunter, um in Starfleet Academy, I think that she does a really good job of conveying the emotions to the audience, and I don't know whether that's because she's very good at feeling the reality of it, but I think there is a sense where she understands that it's communicative that her job is. She conveyed that she was very relaxed in that chair, didn't she? No, but I was thinking, oh, here we go. Job sleep, Nathan. You'll be absolutely delighted. Sorry, this is Paul Lambert playing the cheap scientist. He's wearing a jumpsuit, which is exactly the sort of thing that Mariners hated. He is in when the power breaks. He's one of the old Aldean. Oh, it gives her the musical instrument, doesn't it? yeah. Yeah, yeah. And she says I don't want to play the instrument anymore. And he gets a bit stroppy about it. That's where I know him from, because that's one of the few videos I had when I was younger. I also watched when the bowel breaks on home soil all the time over and over again. Oh my god. Oh my god. The devil was coming back to Ventax free. And so that's a brilliant high concept thing, isn't it? It's the planet that sold its soul to the devil and now the devil returns and wants it back. And it's, it could be an alien. You know, we know Star Trek. There's Q and they mention Q. So it could be an alien, absolutely. And certainly her, you know, her style of acting and stuff suggests Q, I think. And so making sure that Picard is very, very certain that she's a confidence streakster earlier on, I think, is important, don't you? I love, I love Picard saying earlier, you know, I think I vaguely heard about method acting, you know. Well, you should have deployed some of that in the finale of this all right? I mean, what I got from that pre-title sequence was this is going to be kind of relaxed. Okay? Yeah, yeah. But it's something about fear, isn't it? And it's something about whether you can trust your senses. Like those seem to be the 2 things. Yeah. He says that Brent's giving us superb performances. I wasn't really seeing it. No, very silly voice. Yeah, that's right. Brent passes for Brent's English accent there. We do, I think we do. Is it about 10 minutes of procedural before Audra actually shows up in this episode? I can't remember, actually. I don't remember being bored, but this is the kind of Star Trek shit that I just lap up. Do you know what I mean? Because you're mad. But because that was what I was here for, do you know what I mean? Is the procedural, we turn up, there's a space problem and we solve it. These is a more fun space problem than normal, I think. And initially it doesn't look like it's going to be that, and then Marta turns up. And she's superb. points for the episode title. Devil's Jew. It's like, wow, yeah, it's really good, isn't it? Oh, even her real name is Camp. Marta Dubois. Yeah, it is wonderful. She's just terrific. So she had a semi-regular roller recurring role on Magnum PI apparently. Oh, we've got Howard Bag. So this is the sort of thing we just do all the time, isn't it? Oh my god, there's something terrible happening on that planet. What surprised me was what we cut to the exterior. I was like, fucking hell, that's a good shot. Remember who watches the watch and starts in a fairly similar way as does Star Trek interaction much later? I think it might be the same jumpsuits, Nathan. This a jumpsuit. That buff man next day, yeah. Did you see him? We do, guys. some handsome people in the on the bridge this week. Oh, sorry, sorry. Audra, she becomes... She turns into that. Good looking guy. Yeah, yeah. I love how we can only beam up one of the scientists because that's all we're paying to speak this episode. everyone else all runs around flailing their hands about it. Yeah, yeah. We basically have kind of 3 guest stars. I do feel sorry for this man, though, because basically after he's delivered the expedition of what this is all about. He's just a bystander in every single scene, but he's always there but just standing there saying nothing. Well, thank God he doesn't get made up to do that. I mean, you know, like he didn't have to sit for 3 hours in the makeup chair. It's actually funny too. The Ventaxians are human. There's no indication Michael Westmore hasn't been let loose on them. Only, only Ardra gets the kind of prosthetics. And everyone's, you know, how the chase revealed to us how the humanoids spread across the galaxy. And were all played by American actors. Of course, they wrote that episode. Otherwise, we would have been asking those questions for this very day. God, every time I see the Fentaxians written on the screen. So great. It's so great. This is absolutely what Lower Decks is making fun of this episode I think. I know you shouldn't manufacture running jokes on podcasts, but can we have the Ventaxian scale now, please? So when we get new alien dances, we'll decide where they are, one to 10 on the vent. Because it has got a V and a X. is number 10, I think. Do you know what I mean? He's putting a lot of weight. It's great name. Viridian's only got a V and an R, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. that's true. The Fantaxi leader. His name is Accost Gerrard. So he's played by Marcelo Tubert, and he is, he has it featured already on Untitled Star Trek Project because he is in the season 2 Picard episode Assimilation. And he's the old man in the wheelchair, because of course it's many decades later, and it's in Teresa's medical practice when ice come in and raid the medical practice, and he has a couple of, he has an interaction in Spanish with Rios, where he tells Rios he should leave, and Rios says he's not going to. And so he gets to appear in Star Trek again in much smaller part but obviously a much better one. I think he's got love his outfit too. You're talking about something very thoughtful and I'm going to take us to somewhere very irreverent. What the fuck are they all wearing? I love his outfit. He's got half blue leopard print. The guy behind's wearing a curtain and this poor fellow who's on the bridge. He's got like quilted inserts in his gray jumpsuit. Where is Pfizer? He's so bad. He's got like a quilted pad on his arse. What is going on? Yeah, it's really bad, isn't it? They're so unflattering. They're so cheap looking. Like, they're really terrible. Have you got on the gap is available? No? Oh, no, it's all... This scene is very important, all right? Because everyone is so serious and to say, now, watch Gates McFadden. She only gets one line and a reaction shot and she's the only one that's winking at the audience. There's a big smile on her face. Oh no, not yet. And she'll lose quite seriously. very serious. That's the other thing that I really like, too, is that everything has to be played on the Fentaxians term. So Ventaxian law still applies. The contract is valid as long as it's valid in Ventaxian law and so on. And I think that's really good. Is there more TNG dialogue than, you know, in Vantaxian terms? Bad luck, you know? We certainly don't talk like that anymore, Star Trek. We don't. Come on, where's Gates? Look, Picard, fairy dower. Yeah, yeah, very serious situation here. Well, actually, Levon, it was quite relaxed. Yeah, yeah, yeah. pretty chill. Oh, oh, maybe it's later. Oh, look at my feet. Now this shot is great. We said when we did best of both worlds, that they'd learned to composite. So, uh, they'd learn to composite. So we have people running. We have real live action things. It's not enterprise style, little cartoon people. We have a match shot, you know, a glass shot, and we have moving smoke, and I think it looks incredible. I mean, that was so, did you see them when they beamed in, right? So there's a crane, because so it's coming down, but the way everyone's positioned. It's so theatrical. What's positioned around the space. It's been absolutely perfectly blocked that short. We want to see everyone's face when they beam in. Okay, right. You stand there. you stand there. Let's fill the set. That's Tom Banko. He knows what he's doing. He's watched a lot of this shit. You know, I'm not sure. I'm not going to go on about the costumes too. Oh, who cares about the costumes? Here's Ardra. Arj's costume. Oh, boy. I just think she has the most stunningly beautiful smile and she is the one person here who is having an incredible amount of fun. So that is 10 minutes in. That's 10 minutes in before she's gone. Have you noticed, she's got crystal baubles off of hanging off her strands of hair. Yeah, yeah, she looks fantastic. No, I think those are earrings that look like her... No, I don't know. That goes through that line, so they send. What's that? I am Jarrad of Gen Tech 10. Oh boy. Oh my god. She's wonderful. She is so great. So good. Just super, super, super, super. I bore easily. Stop cowering. I want you on your knees no one's cowering. What? It's actually cowering, Audra. No, that woman Beyond's barely bowing her head, look. She's so impressed with Picard, though, because he stands right up to her. That's exactly right. I mean, she really wants to seduce him. I can't think why couldn't be more boring in this episode. Yeah. He's in his pyjamas a bit later. She, again, it's all that sort of cue stuff, but they use him sort of, yeah, special effects that do kind of read like a transporter. And like, it is possible that she's cute. She does say that thing where she says, you've travelled the universe. Don't you think there's a place for someone like me in it? And there is. Do you know what I mean? It is possible, but he's, you know, not convinced. And I think, I think it might be that line about economic forecast where she's already asked for economic forecast that, that gives the game away. Poor Troy. She is only in this scene to deliver information. That was it. you know, they fear that you're coming back to enslave them. Is that why you beam down just for that line? Oh, here we go. She's about to turn very Q like now into various alien. Jesus. I love dream going. But look at, like, it's this muscle guy. Just look look at the guy. Look at his huge arms. That's not makeup. He's not in his latex suit. Looks like a giant... Yeah, yeah, yeah. His mouth looks like a prolapsed asshole, right? It's really rough. But he's massive. Like they've got some massive guy. I don't know why they don't just paint the same guy red rather than put some weird looking guy in the... Yeah, anyway. What? to see that. Patrick Stewart looks so bald. Yeah, yeah. Come on, that Shatner would be sort of winking at her going. Oh, really? You want to get up close and personal to me. Do you? Yes, he is. Stewart doesn't think he's sexy, whereas I think William Shatner knows he's sexy, yeah? Yeah. Yeah. And Stuart is sexy. I think Stuart can be sexy, but he's not being Uber. Starship mine, you know, when he starts stripping it. Hell. Remember 1st contact? Mossex. Yep, yep. absolutely. Oh, here we go now. What's happening? We're looking at the contract. We're looking at the contract Now we're talking about scrolls, but we've only made 2 of them, and so we've got some books from somewhere in the... But we've only been able to afford to get 2 scrolls happening. And then... very simple arrangement. You've got 2 entire volumes there. Poor Troy, look, she is just in the background. She's got nothing to do. Neither is Michael. Like Michael's just standing there too. Yeah, God, I'll burn it. I mean, this is very TNG though, right? So we've got a contract with the devil, yeah. So instead of like looking into the fun part of that. No, we'll actually look at the contract. Yeah. But again, because he, he, you know, she's exploiting the legal system here in order to make this happen. And so Picard absolutely doesn't for a second, you know, concede that she might be the devil at all and never thinks that she is for even one moment, except for one gag a little bit later on. I do love the I do have that effect on people. Like everyone's running around. I just feel like everyone gets stiffed on on except her. He just went, panic gripped the people at the news of your return. Yeah, and then she just goes, I do have that effect on people. She's one. I looked at some photographs of how I sort of Googled Martha Dubois. Man, she's aged beautifully. Yeah, she's not with us actually. She died in 2018. beautifully sort of blonde cropped hair when she was older, as beautiful as she is here. So she's she's Panamanian, Panamanian, American. So that was... That line should be fun. I refuse to abandon this planet to that woman. That woman. I think he didn't leave us there quite well. I think I think that's quite good. He's a bit pissed off. And like that's actually not a bad way for Picard to be playing it but just it just isn't quite fun enough. And it is funny, isn't it? But this is series four. This is the imperial phase. This is perhaps not... Well, this is not as strong an episode. I think, as some of them. Do you know what I mean? Like some really memorable series 4 episodes. This is a fairly standard one. But I think it's agreeable and has a great guest performance, but everyone is really, really stiff. We're in the same recording block now as the previous information gathering scene. But this is the one where Watchgates now, okay? That comes to her at some point. She's got this sort of very knowing smile on her face. There we go. Hmm. Yeah, that's it. Well, she should be like, this is fun. She doesn't pose a threat. Like Vardra. Vardra. Adra does pose a threat in a sense. I mean, Deanna says that people will be killing themselves. There's riots and all of that sort of thing. So she does pose a threat in a way, but it's funny how kind of low rent this is. And this is before, you know, the Ferengi episode of Voyager in series one or live fast and prosper in Voyager later, or the characters in Deep Shace 9 who are dodgy. Do you know what I mean? We haven't had a lot of that sort of stuff in Deep Space 9. The thread isn't in TNG. The thread is normally much more high scale than these. And so and look. Everywhere it's farm. I mean, we're literally doing queue, right? She's invaded the bridge. She takes over other people. Your chair offers a great few of them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And watch Stuart in this scene. This is where he's at. Look at her, though. Yeah, he's not amused. Look him. Look how stiffy he is. standing there like I'm bored. Oh, well done, Michael. I was very convincing. Yeah, yeah, well done. Oh, look, Troy's braced for something. I don't know what she's doing there, Beyond the security console. Oh, look, she's brought up Bless them, too. Look at her. fantastic No, he's not giving her an inch, is he? Stroking his hand. Oh, she was stroking my head. That's very... This is so funny. Because the other thing is every time he's super confident that she is just a confident streakstar, then he walks onto the bridge and there she is. And then he gets rid of her by transporting her off the thing and she turns up already and replaces Ensign, handsome Asian guy, who is about to appear any 2nd now. Do you think this would be more relaxed on any of the other trek shows? I think the 90s ones. I think it would have been more relaxed a year later. You know, like, I genuinely think it would have been more relaxed later here, that, that, because what Pillar did, like, Pillar really likes the treatment. Um, uh, that Philip Losebnik does, but he can't get, like it gets all of the comedy gets removed. They told it's too funny, it's too silly. Yeah, he says people objected, didn't they? to that original script. And he kept trying to put in more and more and more in, and I think that the show was much more confident about being silly. And remember they'd had Menage Troy and they'd had terrible comedy episodes as well. So they were right, I think, to kind of be wary of. Yeah, yeah. Well, that's a nothing episode. Was that comedy? No not really. Whereas this has such a strong guess before which. She is so much fun. She's so great. I mean, date is good because he comes in and says, well, the contract actually can be interpreted that way and technically she could own the entire enterprise right now. Well, even that moment where the answer appears back in his chair and just looks kind of startled. That's perfect. you know what I mean? That's exactly how it should be played. It's wonderful Straight away. The captain's log, although I consider that woman's claims upon my ship to be absurd. Yes. Well, again, the captain's slug is just for those of you who have been brain dead or in another room. for the last scene. Here's what, here's what happens. I think we just did have an ad break, right? I mean, the American, that was it, yeah, attention span is quite sure. It's not really not that shorter than ours. Again, he's Pecan's being weird in this scene. He's a little bit more animated, a little bit more excited because he actually kind of seems John Raleigh's a con game. But he can't talk normally. Do you know what I mean? Like, he can't talk about confidence tricksters without kind of being weird about it. He dated the same to use the vernacular. artist. Don't you have a word? You do have them in the 24th century. Why don't you just have a normal word for them? Why does he have to call her a flimflam artist? And a purely TNG episode. So I must point out that the Ventaxians did have a 1000 years of peace and tranquillity. But that nearly wins it because they would have to play by the rules, like because it's Star Trek and because they can't just take over and it is a legal contract and if it's found legal in their court of law, he just has to kind of wear it, I think. They never play part of rules. So do you remember Justice? They just, he gives a speech and then beams Wesley out of there. Yeah, he's a regular. in the opening credits. But, yeah, yeah. Right, he goes, they've created this latent fear that's kind of run down the generations and now they're all terrified of her yeah? Why does she appear as this sort of camp villainous then? And not some terrifying, godlike creature? Because she is a camp villainess, I think. Yeah, fair. that's fair enough Yeah. I think that's absolutely it. So here we bringing the fear thing in from the cold open, you know like and that sort of thing, like kind of what's at stake. But what I think is really good, and it is very central to Star Trek, and it does share this with who watches, the watchers, is the idea that it wasn't religion that solved the problem. It can't have been religion that solved the problem. It wasn't that they had this religious thing that happened. It's the society developed. They made good choices and they improve their lot. They created a paradise by making good decisions. And that's what happened on Earth and that's what Star Trek's all about. That's what's going to happen on Mintaka two, three, one of those. You know, you know what you said later on about the scene where you know, they realise what the con is. Yeah, they explain it, she was. And then he explains it to us in the courtroom. And there he's going, well, I've got to find a loophole. We're going to have to investigate this thing. Like everything's spelt out. Yeah, but there's no chance for this episode to pull a rabbit out of his hat, is it? No. No. And I think one of them is indefensible, but that's the way the stories are told, you know, Star Trek's always like that. Even, you know, late 90s Star Trek, late 90s Star Trek is still pulling that crap. See, Nathan, this scene should be the funniest scene of the episode. Ultra, turning up in... She looks like Faye Dunn. Enormous handcuff. It's more 80s hair than 90s, isn't it? That massive fucking 80s hair. She does look like a Dunaway in Supergirl. It's wonderful. Now, let's be honest about this, yeah. Shatner. And I'm wondering even if Cisco might, I've just gone, you know what? Let's fuck. Yeah, I didn't think Chatham would have fucked. Like, I think Shatna fucks much less than we think he does generally. Prim governess cannot be because latent desires. Please. I think you have seen Star Trek generations, right? haven't you? Oh, yeah, those of horrible moppets, yeah. Okay, straight out, dickens. And the woman. Like the woman as well, like looks like this. Oh, shit, hell, Marina. I think that's a beautifully directed thing too, where the camera goes across and she's marina, like she disappears from the shot. The camera goes across and there's Marina and it's her. I think that's really good. No, it means Marina's been washing her coming onto him the whole time. She just barely touches his chest. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That is really good. That's a bit sexy, actually. Gates McFadden would have been in there with her aunt. Come on now. Why don't you get gates to do that? It's very, this is funny. Picard being embarrassed in his pyjamas down on the planet. Well, he does have very sexy pyjamas, doesn't he? Like he has sexy pyjamas. And look, he's got pretty vascular arms. Like he's pretty proud of whatever work he's been doing in LA. Sexy right there. Well, you know, like for Patrick Stewart. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. specific set of circumstances, though, for that person. Yeah, look how vascular his arms are. This is prior to Starship mine. He still looks great. They do give war for comedy line where he goes, a uniform or something like that? Like set? Did you say like that? You are not Feckler. I think is great. But I still, I think Michael, like, remember the comedy he was playing in Where the Warrior? He's still a bit stiff here as well, eh? No one's quite there yet, are they? But hasn't the survivors already happened at this point, which is where he does his good house, nice tea or whatever? script determined then. Maybe it's the quality of the writing. I think I think just generally, because I don't think the writing's bad. I think generally what's happening is that these things happen in fits and starts. Do you know what I mean? Like, I think that, and I think part of the problem is that this is such a Picard heffey episode. Like I wonder if Jonathan had been the main guy. Although Jonathan can be stiff and pompous too, Carney, at this point. I only the writing is bad, but the writing is functional in a way that TNG so often is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. the sort of paucity of genuine wit, you know, in 90s. so relevant here. But again, you see, I think this is really good. Again, we have a scene where he's confident that she is just a scam artist and then we see it scale up. So 1st she's on the bridge, then she's in the Ensign's chair, then she makes the Enterprise disappear. And all of those people who are running away and now going. going back. Well, they're going back to put the fire out, I think, mostly. you know what I mean? It's like, I think I left the island. Those poor extras. They were just like, can you just walk up and down that wall? be panicked. Okay. Pretend you're a car. planet. We'll map the pyramids in later. I know we do sort of mock because special effects are so sophisticated now the steel images of the map painting with things moving inside though. I just think for the time it does look useful. When I would see those map paintings at the time, I was utterly convinced, my God, that's a whole other world, you know? It looked amazing. I think. I think I remember even being impressed by the Matte paintings in series one where they were no kind of elements like that. She's full on Panto Dame now. come down in a velour costume and she's got her hands on her hips. I know. Just wonderful. She's basically having sex with the set as she strokes every cat surf. Oh my god, look at poor old scientist guy. He's leaning against the side. I've got so little to do. I'm just gonna lie down. So terrible. Bless him. There's only one person having fun in this scene and it ain't me. Yeah, it's a, it's a thing. I want to say as well, whilst we are complimenting the effects which we don't often do for the NG, that shot where you looked through the shuttlecraft window at them approaching the Enterprise and because it's been cleaned up so beautifully by the blue hat and it's a model, it really looks detailed. very nice. I think also the enterprise reflected on the view on the windscreen of the shuttle. I mean, the shuttle set is so minuscule. How tiny it was. I mean, I used to think that was the highest sophistication I saw set. Now you can just see it's like a carpeted wall, can't you? That's right. nothing to it. Now I always have you keep telling me everything's reflective. But, man, everything was calm here. What do you imagine no sort of vials are there that we keep getting shots off? No, that's the bar. Great science happens here. That's what they're trying to tell. That's exactly it. Why are they? I don't know. This is what I mean about meeting her, right? So she's coming in, leaning in. I'm gonna kiss you, Picard, you know, if you're not careful. He's not giving her anything, is he? He's so stiff. But I think that that's, I mean, I do think that there is something there, but he needs to be stiff because that's how it works. It's her being fun and him being stiff, but he needs to be. No, but he needs to be stiff in a more knowing way. Like, he's got to be a, you know, like as an actor, he's got to be he can't just be playing this straight because it's a comedy scene. Like, I would like, if Shatner was here, I'd like Shatner to lean in and then pull away. Like it's just... Look as if he's going to be seduced and they're not. He can't be, he can't be, he can't be kind of discombobulated by her because he's absolutely convinced that she's a scam artist and he never wavers. Yeah, he doesn't toy with her in any way. And it could be like a struggle between the 2 of them. Instead, it's her in charge and him just him, I'm not standing there, not doing that. anything. Yeah, yeah Poor Patrick Stewart. Chill out mate. I think too, what's fun is that there's just one or 2 moments where she is on the back foot, which I think are really well chosen, but she doesn't go out on the back foot. She goes out on a note of triumph, which I think is really great. She's really good. Oh, she was never going to go out with her head bowed. Was she? No, no. She doesn't go through the door with more of a flourish. Oh, she goes out off between those boys. Do you know what I mean? The security men sort of take her off and she's she's got designs on them, I think. So, I mean, now we're sort of going from standard trek procedural to standard trek trial now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So for the last 15 minutes, we have the trial scene. And I love a good trial scene, I don't think that this is bad. Look how everyone's blocked in this scene as well. They're in the 4 compass points of the room. Which the same room. Do you know what I mean? Like there's only one room on the planet. No, there's 2 rooms on the planet Ventex, too. Men Cove, you know how to fill a set, man. Very impressed. If only you learn how to move the camera as well. Those chairs, those chairs are very familiar as well. They're great, but they're super familiar. They come in different colours or rather they just paint them different colours. They probably paint them. Yeah, lots of sort of concentric shapes on the floor as well. Oh, yeah. No, I think it's a reasonable set, but it is very kind of 90s track, isn't it? And there are no reflective surfaces. Now, this is amusing only in so far as data keeps telling off Captain Picard. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Although later on, he goes, like, he gives her some leeway, which is kind of funny, like when he, so I have ruled. But your honour. Oh, no. Sit down, he goes. Please sit down. I think he's having fun. Like, I think he is the other person in the cars who's having fun. It's only in this scene, though, but he does kind of enjoy it. Brent, right? When he's having fun, obviously, he has to play that all seriously as well, because data can't be seen to be amusing. But I think the difference between the difference I was thinking about this, because you mentioned Nemoy earlier, is potentially in this role, and of course, Nemoy wasn't going to be in phase 2 probably, so it wouldn't have been him. Um, but, um, uh, that Nemoy is much more serious that he is much less easy to make look silly, whereas data is okay looking silly like data frequently is silly, I think. But all Nemoy needs to do is arch his eyeball. Arch an eyebrow, yeah. Yeah, hilarious. Exactly. Just little ticks. Whereas poor, poor Brent Spider, he has to keep a poker face at all times. Kind of, kind of, I think. Um, I, I, it's so funny because I just remember at the time thinking how much better this was than classic trek and I hadn't watched that much classic trek. And I think in many ways it is better than classic Trek. is more consistent. It creates a bigger world. It's got a, you know, like all of that. In production terms, but actually, we've proven that's a lie occasionally. It's better often. I remember it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Remember Arena? I was just thinking about that outdoor set, the opening scenes of arena in that. massive outlet. Yeah, that's shit's all over these map pages. Yeah, that's right. That's right. And do you remember the lighting in like the doomsday machine? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Really dramatic? And of course, of course, the music's better. Although I did think the music, actually, that's one thing that is playful in this episode. It is pretty fun. I'm doing that. You are out of order. The advocate of this is awful. You had the big muscle man just outside. You could have painted him red. instead. That is the campest devil I've ever seen. is enough big red body stocking with a red cape. Oh, it's ghastly. When he calls her the devil. When he calls her the devil, she smiles and goes, hmm, I haven't heard of that one for a while, and then clearly she goes back to her ship and, you know, gets a devil happening, like makes a devil in her holographic thing and then pulls it out for this. But I did think that that was really cute. You know, he looks like that devil. He looks like the sort of the little devil from South Park. You know? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's so cheap. I mean, when they go in on his face, There's clearly been some effort with the makeup. That isn't quite convincing enough. fairly odd. But I think Fecklar looks better. Like, I do think Feklar looks a lot better. Oh, there's Paul, man, look, even in the Tetna Bumble scenes George's got all the lines. He's just pushing buttons. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe you couldn't remember the lines. So here's what I think goes wrong at the end of the episode that makes it a bit less fun than it could have been. And that is that we need to see them looking for this ship, right but we don't need to see them find it. So that scene should have ended. But then Geordie comes back in during the recess and says we found under a ship and we've taken it over. And that takes absolutely the sting out of the thing. Like, and so we should have discovered that they'd found the ship at the same time as the courtroom does. And so when Picard is doing the magic and claiming to take Andra's powers, we can work out because we watch TV before what's going on. But it just would have been a little bit more fun if we hadn't known where this was going. I mean, there's 21, 25 seasons of 90s track. I'm trying really hard to think of a time where they've pulled off a con or a genuinely surprising rabbit out of the hat and I'm coming up blank. Better being better bang, maybe. I mean, that is a con that goes horribly wrong and they have to improvise their way out. how, but that is exactly how those things work. That's how a heist works, isn't it? You see it played out, then you see it go wrong and they have to rescue it. Like that's playing by the rules. I just think that this, you know, the linearity of the storytelling is something that is really, really something that Star Trek doesn't really depart from until Kurtzman Trek comes along. Occasionally, you know, you know, they'll do a mind fuck episode or Brannan will do something weird, but generally speaking. It's all very linear and straightforward. Oh, I've just thought of a plotting flourish that works as a genuine con. Do you remember Whispers, DS9 Whispers, where O'Brien comes onto the station and the 1st scenes from his point of view. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Everyone's behaving suspiciously. But the whole scene is from his POV. And at the end, the flourish is that he's not real. Yeah. That was clever. And that's rare. Yeah, that's the sort of thing that Beckett Mariner would have come up with in just a second. You know what I mean? Like, because she's, you know, like a soundtrack. They're like, okay, we have the Col has to be on in the very 1st second. So there was something like that happening here. Of course, we've got to set up the planet and then we've got to set up a con. Yeah, yeah, we've got our investigator. Everything is super laborious. But remember, this is this is literally what, season 7 out of how many seasons of Star Trek have we had now? It's still, despite everything very early days. And so they are still really telling things in a very linear way. And it is a bit laborious. I'm going to give you a tough choice now, all right? For Christmas, you can either have the Tom Paris, uh, um, threshold mutant that I keep promising to buy you, or you can have that half leopard print costume that that man's wearing. They do really like Jared's outfit, I have to say. He's pretty great. It is the best of the Ventaxian outfits. I have to say that this scene, this scene, that scene that's just finishing in the trial is the most successful one, because it's that one where he says, no, you did it. Andra didn't do it. God didn't come and solve their problem for you. You did everything. You did the environmental things, you reintegrated your economy. You cleaned up your planet. You deserve the credit for this, not her. And I think that... I pointing out the audience there about the Bible and religion. Well, yes, I think so. I mean, the fact that it's the devil, you know, like religion is so rarely referenced. This is the devil, who 1000000s of Americans actually literally believe exists. Do you know what I mean? Like, like, so having it be the devil and say that it's the, say that it's the devil and the risk is that it's the devil and we did have that once, obviously, in the magics of Megas 2. Millions of Americans voted for Trump as well. You know, they're willing to believe anything. accept. But, so, so, and and remember the problem in who watches the watches? That's the other thing. I keep thinking of who watches the watches because it's also about that, you know, religion is the wrong way of looking at the world. And Star Trek moves away from that in a way that I think is good and right. But, you know, it has a very, very humanist kind of taste. Both critiques uncelebrates it on DS9, doesn't it? It has a really interesting styles on religion over there. That money shot, right? The match shot. Yeah, we've now seen it about 5 times and it's, oh, Barry, let's sing. Don't keep showing the same affection because you know that's all you had the money to do. Yeah, but Star Trek always does that. Like the establishing shot on the planet. Do you know what I mean? Like even Deep Space 9. It's always that shot of the Cardassian building or that shot of the temples on Bajor. I love the, I think he deserves some leeway, but that's quite enough. Like he lets, you know, because he got crossed an ardra for causing a, a... Well, you stop the tremors. She goes, oh, actually, she smiles, though. Oh, no, no, I like the trace. It's so great. No, it's fun because she's on the back foot. Yeah, but she doesn't she doesn't let it get to her. Do you know what I mean? Like she's not rattled or anything. This was a scene I thought worked. This was the thing I thought really well. Look, look, how much fun Stuart's having now? Do you know what I mean? Now, he's finally... relaxing. Oh boy. There's that great thing on Monster. Oh, that's really unpleasant to look at. That's great. isn't it? I mean, it's more like the devil, the devil. Like Dana's going, and then he goes all serious for a 2nd like he's having fun. Like I think that's really great. You saw you too, Picard. I think that's enough. No, no, he says that's enough. You've had enough leeway now. And see, now she's on her back foot here, on the back foot here. Do you know what I mean? Now that he no, now that he's said that he has her ship, uh, and and, but then when she tries to weasel away out of it, it's so great. It's so good I mean, even if this was, wasn't set out right, I don't think it's much of a, like he's playing it more fun and all of that. But the dialogue, again, it's like, gosh, it's got a ship and it's a holiday technology. Except that we've had 3 scenes that say that already. Do you know what I mean? Like he said it at the beginning, then we've had and then we've had Geordie and Howard down on the planet for saying it. so surprised. So maybe just losing one of those scenes wouldn't have surprised us, but it was just a bit. How clever you are, Captain Picard, to realise this call. But no, when she goes, you had no right. Like, she's really quite cross with him at this and he's on the back foot. And so now he's doing the thing. you know, the camera's following him around like he's, you know, like this is a great scene, his great accusing scene. It's the sort of thing that Stuart does really well. He's really enjoying himself. I think it's... smile on his face there. Yeah, yeah. And then she goes, you're under the circumstances. I think we'll just say that, you know, the contracts of being in our... Relief the ventaxians from my obligations. Keep the peace they have. She's being generous. We'll just be on my way. See you later, boy. Great. Oh, no. Look at the cards. What are they wearing? I know. And then, like, she turns and puts her hands on her. She's so terrific. Nathan, you look marvellous in that leper skin cap. I think I might tuck a little bit better on it. Maybe or you would look. More reinforced underwear than... Can I have the sort of quilted thigh jumpsuit, please? Christmas. Thank you. Yeah, see, the 2 of them are having fun. He's having fun, and then she just goes, look at her. This whole episode should have been played like this. Yeah, great. Look until we meet again. Big smile. Yeah, wonderful. And then she just walks off with the boys. What of stuff. I just feel like she's only going to be a prisoner for like 2 seconds. Oh, no, she'll have seduced them. Yeah, that's right. Oh, no, look at that last shot. He pulled up. But that's classic. You know, that's classic TV courtroom procedural. Yeah? Like Harry Mason or something. Yeah. Now, I know, but there was no one in the shot. It was just a load share. No, that's what you do. No, no, you let you just pull back on the courtroom. That's a standard thing. That's actually that's that's doing a thing, I think. Oh, actually, the next episode was just, it is clues. I think that has a twist at the end, doesn't it? Yes, I think so my experience, I don't know whether I've said this before. but I had seen episodes, I'd seen season one and season 2 of Star Trek, The Next Generation, because they were released for rental on VHS. And so the 1st episode that I saw from like a later season was clues and it just looked astoundingly good. So it's the 1st time I'd seen the new opening credits, which come in in series three. The new enterprise model, just the special effects looked better. You know, there's no guest star, I think, in clues. like it is all just this mystery. But it's so well done and just well told. Like, I think Clues is a much better episode than Devil's Dew, but what Devil's Dew has is is Mar de Duvois, which is why I'll always love it. I think she's magnificent. My 1st was lonely among us. The VHS of Lonely Among Us and Justice, you know. And obviously I was young. So the sleigh and the Anticons, I mean, I'd never seen that. used to doctor radiants, for fuck's sake. And then you were on a sex planet. I'm like, my God, this is the best. No, I'm like 9 or something. I've ever seen. Look at those men being oiled up on that planet. Jesus. I mean, I had a lot of fun talking about that with you, far more fun than I had actually watching the bloody thing. Do you know what I was trying to think, actually? Is there a great TNG with a big rug ball? And we've already done one. Remember me had a great rumble in it. And the misdirect was, wasn't it? We keep thinking everything's happening to all the other people and the twist. It's happening to her and she's trapped in the bubble. But it doesn't give away the twist. until the twist happens. Yeah. It's actually very well done. isn't it? We wait and hold off, whereas this is very linear and very straightforward and that's a little bit of a shame. But as you pointed out, the scene that I didn't like is probably you know, the 3rd or 4th scene where we kind of discuss what's really happening in the episode, so it's not that big a twist, but I did think it was really a bit flat-footed, that scene. That scene that irritates me the most is the one in Picard's course. That's the one I think really highlights. How stiff he is. Oh, God, man. Just give them all some bloody drugs or something to chill about. I mean, do you remember them in the naked now that we did? They were more relaxed in that. Well, which was precisely the point of the naked now, I think, was that they're so steerful all the time and we get to see them relax and recite their bios to us. They should have given Patrick Stewart his coffee and just slipped a bit of vodka in there or something, you know, a bit of rum. Yeah, it is a shame and I think it's probably Patrick Stewart's fault more than anyone else because he is not having enough fun until that very final scene. I think the franchise has to relax as well though. I think so. that's right. They're getting there. and I think you're right. sort of 5 to 7 when they try this. I mean, trust me, there are episodes that are supposed to be fun and the procedural stuff gets in the way. But I think the crew together are more relaxed. This is you're right. so focussed on one character and that character is so stiff. But like I said, like in this spot or just a few episodes before in DS94, it's our man for shit. And everyone, man, nobody's stiff in that. was having the best time. Yeah, it takes them much less time to loosen up and I think, you know, the cast is a bit better the 2nd time round. Did you take a while, though? We did move along home. We were complaining in that, that, like, they're in a fun situation and Cisco and Kira was angry, wasn't she? Yeah, yeah. I don't know what was going on with Bashir in that. Yeah, yeah. Well, again, you know, it does take them a while to warm up and to realise exactly how they can work together and that seems to be kind of normal, I guess, in 90s trek. But yes, I still think that the, the surprising thing here, and it's the, the reason that Q works as well, is that the crew is so stiff and that, um, that Audra and Q are not, that they're the most fun thing on screen, and that's pretty good. But it does also highlight, something that you and I have said again and again and again about 90s trek, is sometimes these episodes can live or die on the strength of the guest performance. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm not talking about the old man. I'm talking about Martha Dubois. You know, and if there is fun to be had here and there is, it's all coming from down a direction. Yeah, absolutely. All right, it's the end of the episode and it's time for us to work out where we're going next. Surprisingly, this wasn't my choice. This was yours, Joe. And so I am going to go to a series that we have neglected a little bit lately, which is Star Trek Discovery. Everyone's neglecting that now. Now all the new shows are coming out. Strange New Worlds Academy. People seem to have forgotten discovery exists. Well, that's right, but I haven't, and I'm keen to watch some. So I am going to press the button. The great father of all of this Kurtzwin trick. Exactly right. All right, here goes. This is one we've done already. Kobayashi Maru, which we covered on untitled Star Trek Project episode one. That was absolutely pissed as houses, wasn't she? It was wonderful. Oh no, this is series four, episode one. So this is the one that starts with them on the butterfly planet having a great old caper with book and stuff. and then it ends remember, with the destruction. That action sequence. So it went on forever. It's so good. It was really good. bloody minutes. Gal many episodes. Sorry. No, that was a kind of reminder of why Star Trek's fun, I think. Let's try another one. Season one, episode five. Choose your pain. Choose your pain. Lawker is captured and held prisoner by the Klingons, leaving Saru to face his 1st command situation and a difficult choice. I think that's the one with Harry Mudd in it, actually. And it's got the sort of vogue plot, the vogue Lorel plot happening. We've done a series where... And we have covered a bit of mud on discovery before as well. So let's try another one. Come on, I want to do a five. season five. So this is terra firma part two, season three, episode 10. So it's toward the end of series three. We have done some of the end of series three. Terrafirma part two. Let's not do that. and the end and a few in the middle. Come on, we've done a fair bit of free. Keep press until you get five. Into the forest I go, season one, episode nine. Season four, episode five, which is called the examples and we did it already on episode 50. I always think there's so many Discovery episodes and there's only 50, isn't there? No, no, there's more than that. No, no, no, because it's 5 seasons, but the early seasons are, you know, like 13 and stuff like that. Was it 1670? I'm not sure. don't think it's 70. Light and Shadows, season two, episode seven. No, keep going. I want season 5. What's going on? Saints of imperfection, season two, episode five? I'd settle for season 4 as well, I have to say. No, no, because we haven't done five, have we? Yeah, that's true. Magic to make the sanest man go mad. Good grief. Usually the randomiser loves the last season of any show. Ooh, season four, episode four, we've rolled this before. It's all is possible. It's a tily episode. It's her last regular episode, and it's a little bit of a sort of Starfleet Academy pilot in the sense that we have a bunch of cadets on a shuttle that gets trapped on a planet with a monster. It's very standard Star Trek. And it's... Oh, she end up on a beer. Why? She ends up working for Starfleet Academy before it moves to San Francisco and I think that there's some talk of her being on Starfleet Academy. Yeah, yeah, but how does that happen? That's not the same time zone, is it? Yeah, it is. Yeah, of course it is. It's Admiral Van. in it? It has Admiral Vance in it. They talked about discovery the other day. It's said a few years. I mean, I lose it, they jump about in time so much. Just where I am, if I'm honest. Well, no, and then we're doing stuff back in Strangely Worlds and I'm just all over the place in Kurtzman Trek. So this is not what we're doing because it's series one, but I mentioned it because it has an incredible title. It's series one, episode four, The Butcher's Knife, Cares Not for the Lamb's Cry. That could have come from the pen of Ira Bear. Couldn't be that time. Or original track, I think. It's pretty good. Come on, will you find me a season 5 episode? Okay, we're doing this. a season 4 episode, but it is a very good one. Come on. We have to stop rolling at some and I'm starting to get embarrassed. Keep going. All right. Well, just keep pressing it. I think this is a really good episode though. I haven't watched any of it. Okay, okay. Sorry. I don't usually have a patty, but I'm insisting here. Series four, season 4 is one of my favourite Star Trek seasons ever, and this is, I think, after an episode that we've done. Rosetta, it's towards the end as we get to know who the 10 CR, but I will press the button. Season 2, episode three. Oh, my God. Have you not included season five? Season one, episode 8, SeaWiz Park, and Parabellum, a nice Latin one, like inter armour. That hope is you part two, which we've done already. Okay, here it is. Here you are. Bloody hell. I mean, the fire. 25 episodes in. This is the longest stroll. This is the one we've cheated the most apart from the 2 where we do the pilot because that's the only episode there is. This is season five, episode four, Face the Strange. Face the Strange. right lets have a look now. Face the Strange, an act of sabotage causes discovery to repeatedly jump through time and space. I just complaining about that. With only Burnham, Rayner, and Stammers, unaffected by the phenomenon, and having any chance of stopping it. Well, that sounds like a jolly standard sort of Star Trek episode. It's a very standard high concept Star Trek episode, a little bit like the late Voyager one where they, there's one where they go back in time to different time zones during the show's run. Relativity. Relativity. So it's a bit like relativity. So, um, Rainer is a new character for season five. He is Burnham's 2IC while Saru is not on discovery. He's back at Federation HQ with Trina, the head of the planet Navarre, the lovely Valcan lady who he ends up getting married to in the final episode. You're going to be catching me up on a lot, aren't you? So, yes. So this will be fun. So series five, which we haven't done, and series five, you know when we started an untitled Star Trek project, I can't remember where we were up to on Discover View, but we weren't up to season five yet, so it all happened while we've been doing this. I think it's really fun. It's super light. I think that 4 is probably the most successful season, I think, one is tremendous. 4 is really properly good. I think it's a great season of Star Trek. And 5 is kind of like a coda. I'm glad we have it. We have Tilly back full-time after she disappears from 4 for a bit and it's it's fun. You know, so often you have sort of mournful, sad, looking tirily into the cameras and equal like we did in series too. This is them having a caper. It's proper caper stuff and so it is fun and enjoyable. Well, I promise you, I would absolutely give, given I've just had such a tantrum to get us into season five, I promise you, I will absolutely... just so curious because it's this is sort of like a blank spot for me. So I'm like, well, what was the tone? What was what was the feel of season five? And it gives us a chance to talk about sort of the actors coming in and out as well, doesn't it? And the delays in it being made and well, whether it was very successful or not. Yeah, I'm intrigued. suitably intrigued. I think it'll be fun. listening to entitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford and Nathan Bottomley, where online at untitled Star Trek Project.com, where you can find subscription links and links to our social media accounts. Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceran, and the theme was composed by Cameron Lahn. This episode was recorded on the 9th of February, 2026, and released on the 13th of February. And we'll see you next time for Star Trek Discovery, Face the Strange. Oh, Nathan, that lion at the end. Jesus Christ. Well, I'll be off now. I release the Ventaxians from their obligations. and allowed them to enjoy the peace that they've had. Right. She just doesn't. Because it would have been no fun to see her expostulate like a Scooby-Doo villain. Like that would have been super boring. like just having her go out in triumph. And that's the, that's a picture on the website is her smiling triumphantly as she is taken off by the, by the guards. Oh, the great camp. Who are the great camp villains from 90s Trek? Well, obviously Wayoon. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, and gum. What's his face? That other terrible, um, that early, very early, uh, um, Vorta who's dead, who they weakened at Bernie's with later on. Do you remember the Camp Evil one? Is he the one in rocks and shoals? Is he in rocks and shoals? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I hate Frankie when he gets shot. See, I think he's pretty good. Yeah, but like, because the villains tend to be a film thing really, rather than a Star Trek the Next Generation thing. you know, like actual villains. Like, like, when is pre-camp? which she wants to be. Is Denise having fun in, um, in whatever it is? Probably not as much as she should. No, I think so. She's a bit muted. She should be chewing the scenery a bit more, I think. Yeah. I think Brent's having too much fun in descent. Oh yeah, yeah. He's not fun to watch that performance. I don't like that Brent Brent bad guy performance thing that he just does, whether he's law or whoever he is. The sun, the sun, are together again. Terrible, you do it. I mean, mind you, like Garak and Ducart in a scene together is pre camp. Yeah. That is true. You may just need my help. Actually, though, Garrick is the campus character. Star Trek. Well, let me guess. Oh boy, oh boy. Should we do it or not? If not, we'll do it discovery. do you think? It's up to you. Up to you entirely. The travel is though. don't want to do too many of them. Because then we'll have none to watch. Well, if we do that, then that's our 20%, that does heating 20%, and we can't do it until the next season comes along. I think we should do a discovery. And it's not because I don't want to do that episode because I would love to discuss it, but I think... Let that season all come out. and then we'll do another one and and I don't know. I just feel like then we take them all, you know? like, it will be enough. yeah, yeah, yeah. well situations where we can't press the button for a while. We can't press the button. We're creeping up. It is still the one that we've watched the most of, Strangely Worlds at 23, 3%. All that stuff I learned is banks, all that stuff from that interview, which was such a great interview. It was so good. It was so good. And it just far out. I just think the episode is so well told. Like, you know, I was raving about how well written, um, I thought kids these days was, how thematically it all worked and was telling something like a really coherent story and stuff. And here, like, I think, Like, he has some arc stuff to do, like with the kids and it's got some arc stuff to do with the war college guy and um, and Nala. Um, but just, just how well, like, you know, it's like those old scientists where Tony Newsome comes along and teaches, you know like it's a young black woman from Benjamin Cisco. like the way that tawny Newsom herself had and and like tawny getting the chance to mentor that younger version of herself. and the fact that Sam works in that role so well and that it's a good story for Sam because we don't really know Sam's backstory, like we don't know any of that stuff. And just gradually her interacting with the makers is like becomes like Cisco interacting with the prophets. Even in the way that that's shot, you know, like where he goes to he's still in the same set, but the lighting's different and, you know, the other people aren't there and then he's interacting she's interacting with, you know, the special effect. And did you see who played the makers? It was sure tell Aija for. Posh, English black guy is playing her makers, like, you know, the parents. And so she's got these demanding, these, these sort of demanding parent. And then she learns what a loving parent is like through Tawny Newsome and through Syric. And, you know, like, just, just seeing Sirik. I had no idea he was coming. So good. And he's like, I mean, he was always... I mean, he learned to be very, very good in DS9, but that's an that's an actor that's learned some lessons as well. And it's funny, isn't it? Because he was like a bean pole. Like he was a little kid and they even... It looks just like Avery Brooks. I know. That was the other thing. He's got the shaved head and they dress him like Avery, you know like they dress him like Avery because they don't have Avery. He obviously, he was communicating with Avery the whole time and was like, you know, you're happy for this. And and they had creative input into the episode because I think they didn't want it spoiled either. Remember, Avery said that he insisted on the line, one day I'll come back because he didn't want DS9 to end with a black man abandoning his family. But I mean, what they land on, and that's the that's the thing here too. Like we've got the religion thing in this episode, right? Where religion is clearly false. She can't be the devil. because there isn't a devil, right? And then, and then you get Sam going into the Bajoran Christian Club at the academy and telling them all that their religion's made up and it's clearly nonsense. But we land on the fact that the religion isn't in fact made up and Jake says that he believes that Ben has been there all along watching him. And in an episode where they studiously avoid showing us Avery's face, you know, like and people saying, oh, we don't have the rights to do that. And you kind of go, come on. Like, of course they do. If they wanted to show every space, they would. They don't. But in the final shot and someone pointed it out on blue sky. Do you see it? No, I haven't gone back and watched it, but that you can see Ben Sisko's face suckling from the clouds, like looking down on them and it's a speech. And what's the speech from? Did you recognise the speech? No, the speech, so the speech is from one of his jazz albums. So it's not from a DSI episode. And so Sirok listens to his jazz and and it was like, there's a there's a bit that he said and he says to him, and then he asked Avery Brooks, can we use this? And Avery was like, of course you can, yeah. And it's just so perfect. Like, it's, yeah, so, but do you know, the line that killed me? I mean, seeing Surok killed me, but the line that killed me was, um what was it? He's the dad that we all should have had or something like that. It's not like he's the perfect dad. He's the dad we all deserve or something like that. And I, and I, do you know, it moved me so much because I, obviously I watched that with my mum. My dad was, and I remember watching that and I've always said, like that, I would watch that and go, oh, I wish that was my dad, you know, like, he's just the perfect dad. And in fact, look at the stars. Like they talk about him, um, um, you know, saving 1000000000s of people and stuff and and stopping the Dominion war and all of that sort of thing. But the real thing is what he was like as a dad. And because it's from Jake's point of view, I never thought I would say that. That's always the important thing. wasn't it? Yeah, so good. And remember we felt slightly bad that Jake gets shortchanged a bit in the end. You know, he goes back and visits Cassidy, but we don't bookend the 1st episode by having see Jake. And this episode mends that in a way because Jake is convinced that he's always been watched by him. And then the episode at the very end says, yes, he has been, you know, that I, and, you know, he's, he's now watching over Sam as well. So Sam has the makers who are demanding and unpleasant. She learns from Avery, from Benjamin how to stand up to them and she has a good dad who's watching her and looking after at the end of the episode. Like, and it's so... I was so scared. I was so scared. They were going to work because I know we're going to fuck it. I love that scene of Jake and Kira and him... Yeah, looking out. I just think that's a, it's a really wistful, and the way it pulls away from the station. I just thought all that was just so perfect at the end of what you live on. I was like, oh, God, don't ruin this. Yeah, and I think I think it's more than any other reason that they hadn't dealt with Deep Space 9 isn't because they didn't like it or anything like that. Scoot. it's good and they didn't want to fuck it up. There's nothing to fix. Yeah, no, I mean, sometimes it's crappy. But you know that Star Trek way. The Tony Newsome thing where she says duet and and move along home need one another for the show to work, which is so insightful. The other thing, the word that she used to describe the 2 women in the cast where she says, they're flippant, which I just thought was flippant. It's funny and authoritative. That was great. how much that inspired her. Yeah, yeah, yeah. is such a perfect word to describe them. So good. And all of the bit where she's talking about Avery. She goes, just seeing like a black father and a black leader and just how that is what Whoopi did with Ahura, right? There's a black woman on the telly. And she ain't a servant, you know? Karis, who plays Sam says that she didn't know about Star Trek and didn't think it was for her until she saw Sanequa on the screen. You know, like all of that stuff. Didn't she say to it? You should do this. No, I think she spoke to her as well, didn't she? Oh, I don't know. I'd agree. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I think she convinced her to take the part. She's like, you have to be a part of Star Trek. Yeah. Wow. Yeah, just go, hang on. I was going to try and pull up the stars and see if I can see him. Oh, and just all a bit where they go in the room and there's the typewriter on the baseboard. the card, the in- the cards card. Was there? And I was like, this is deep dive stuff. They really looked at this. Because, I mean, they did it, didn't they? I mean, they did do it twice on lower decks. Um, you know, the 2 deep space 9 episodes on Lower Dags, um, but they absolutely studiously leave Jake and Cisco out of it because they don't want to spoil the ending and they don't know what to do about it. And I've seen people online saying, oh, I wish they'd said that Ben had come back because they, you know. No, no, no, no, no, that would have heard. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's where they left DS9. Don't change it. But what they do do at least is make it clear that Ben has been watching over them and continues to watch over them, that Siri believes that. Well, I think I think Avery said that as well. It was like, yeah, like, that was his input, is that he wanted it to be that Jake didn't have a bad life because he went away. Yeah, yeah. Well, hang on. There is a stars at the end of the episode. No, not stars the cloud. So the... Oh, in the clouds, okay. In the clouds. It's really subtle. It's not hugely visible. But it's the final shot, and it's the shot of LA. And it's definitely zooming in for a while. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, thank you, Avery. Oh, yeah. So just before hang out, you can just about see his face. When in the middle? Yeah. Where am I supposed to be looking? Oh, I can't see it. It's like, I'm gonna get pretty sorry. I've been looking at bloody Spock's face in the meteorite debris from the, it's not in titles. Maybe someone, someone might have put it online with like a trace around it. No, no, so what someone did was that they faded from Avery to what they think was the publicity shot that they've taken the image from and it was very clearly that. So it was clearly there, I think. Oh, just a voice. So that deep voice of his when it came in. I love can interpret those words. Oh, yes. I'm just so Star Trek as well. Yeah, perfect. Yeah. All right. In that case, I'm persuaded. We can do it later. We'll do it later. Okay, although I think we may have a tag there, you know. I think we might just...