Fury

Hey, Joe. Hi. So, we're back aboard the Starship Voyager this week. We are watching series 6, episode 23 Fury, which is a story by Berman and Braga, um, and a teleplay by Brian Fuller and Michael Taylor. So it's got a pretty good pedigree. And it's an episode where we bring back Kess, who we last saw nearly 3 years ago. How do you think it went? Terribly. And a shame because I love the gift. I think the gift is one of the best Voyager episodes. It's quiet, yeah, but it is the most female centred episode of 90s trek you're gonna find. It's basically all about. Cares 7, Janeway and Balana, with the men barely getting a look in. So naturally, it's better than your average Voyager episode. I really, really didn't like this. It sort of started in a bad place for me, and as it progressed, I just got more angry and annoyed at these writers that know these characters. Somehow forgetting what makes any of them tick. It really frustrated me. I'm like, do you even remember, cares, you know, the character you created and wrote for for 3.5 years. You're bringing her back for a grand finale, exit wave. And this isn't who she is. This isn't who she is. And on top of that, you've got Jennifer Lien, who's had some issues since leaving Star Trek Voyager with the law and just in life in general, who phoning it in doesn't even begin to describe what she's doing in this episode. It's no kind of a performance. Could I very quickly talk to you though, about 90s trick in general, right? And just sort of the levels of bad that you can get across the 4 shows. Is that right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Why not? Let's do that. When TNG is bad. yeah. Generally, it's hugely entertaining, right? We've done some bad TNG. Like skin of evil. I mean, that dismal one where they all turned into monsters in episodes in series 7. What's that called again? Oh, that's brilliant, Genesis. But it's sort of bad, right? But it's very funny to watch. So TNG usually gets away with it just by turning it into some terrible B movie that's enjoyable to watch, but bad. DS9 is generally bad. I find when... When it's not DS9. when it's trying to be the other shows and it doesn't really conform in that way. So a lot of season one and some of season 2 where they're trying to do TNG knockoffs, it just doesn't feel like DS9 and so it's bad in that sort. When DS9 finds this group, it's generally kind of good, good or great. Enterprise is just dull shit when it's bad. Like, it's just really boring with no substance whatsoever. We've recently done vanishing and Oasis. You remember Strange New World. I mean there's nothing to them at all. Whereas Voyager, when Voyager is bad, right? it's really fucking stupid that's what annoys me. And that's episodes such as what's the one where Tom Paris turns into a salamander threshold. Yeah, course oblivion, you know, just dismally, stupid episodes of television. That just gets steadily more stupid as they go along. And I'm put in fury in there because it tries to tell some form of sophisticated time travel story. I don't think any of it makes any sense and you may tell me as we go through, well, yes, actually there is a logic to all of this. But when the thing that's holding this episode together is the motivation behind the character. And what they're doing, it just falls apart, the whole thing. is stupid. I actually found myself on the 1st watch enjoying it and I also enjoyed it the 2nd time through. With the understanding that no one is able satisfactorily to explain why Kessey's so angry, where the fury in the title comes from. Not even cares. No, it makes no sense at all. Braga has no idea why it's happening. No one knows. And so I think the more that you like the gift, the less you're going to like this, because the gift is beautiful, like it's a lovely departure. It's exactly what we want. You've got Kate, and I read an interview where she said that she was really distressed that Jennifer was leaving and playing Catherine Janeway being distressed that Kess was leaving. She said, the character's feelings were a little bit too close to my own, and so it was all a little bit too raw. And that, you know, that incredibly hurried way she just has to go and how everything sort of cuts short, but... Remember, all those powers are short. It's like puberty. I'm sort of raging out of her and she's got to get, but the scene where she goes to Janeway and says, like, I think I need to go. It's so understated. It's beautiful. it's not at all what they're doing in this episode. And so there's no justification for why she behaves this way. It's actually unpleasant to watch. And I think, I think Jennifer struggled to play it. Not just necessarily because she has personal issues or there were things about the show that we're weighing on her or whatever, but it's just like, how do I even play this because this is not the character that I played for 3 years, that this is nothing like her. And she never gets to play that character. No, even at the end, when this is resolved, right, and she's going off and she's in the transport room and poor Ethan Phillips, he's trying to give her something. Oh, sweetie, I've brought you something, you know, to rekindle something of that case that we saw before. No, Lian's not interested at all. She just goes, oh, all right, t-rah. Get us on the transporter pad. I think there's one line that's really actually quite good, and it plays that quite well. Oh, why couldn't this have just been Kez comes back and she's had a wonderful time exploring the universe and we just have a nice fun episode where we catch up with her. That would have been so much better. So what I kept thinking was, imagine if this had been a season one episode where we saw Kess from the future, come back and try to destroy the ship. And in that case, does it work better as a season one episode because the bulk of the action takes place during season one, just 2 months after they arrive in the Delta Quadrant. And actually that sort of idea where a sort of twisted dark mirror version of Kes comes back and they have to remind her what it was really like for her to be on the ship. But even that, even that I don't think would have worked. But I think it would have been less offensive. But what I what I did find was, if I'm going to say, look, they've had an idea. It can't possibly work. It traduces the character in all sorts of ways. They can't justify it in dialogue. So the core of the thing doesn't work. I still think that as a Star Trek episode, as an episode of TV where things happen and there's a plot, I actually think it does a pretty good job and it doesn't do the usual voyager thing of wasting time or having characters explain things that we've just seen, although I think there's probably one example of that. Generally speaking, Cass has a plan and we see her carry it out. She's given a chance to interact with all of the characters, which is kind of what we want to see. And there are proper stakes that are not cheated. cheat our way out of. I'm not for 12nd do I believe this mad plot to get the Vedians to take over the ship and for her to kidnap. I've never invested in any of it because I'm like, okay, will this clearly never happened? None of this ever happened. all going to be reset at the end of the episode. But most importantly of all, it is that central performance because do you remember Warlord, right? She was vivid as hell. She's running around rooms tearing off bloody things off the wall snogging men and women and having the best time chewing the scenery, Shatner style. Yeah, she's just so contained and quiet and meek, and it's no kind of a villain, and that's what they're trying to portray her as even when she's sort of being clandestine, you know, and pretending to be the good cares. There's no sort of look into the camera and winking or anything. Nothing that would make any of that stuff really fun to watch. It's just baffling They're clearly not going for that. and I don't know why. I don't know who thought it was a good idea. Well, Berman and Braga thought it was a good idea. And I think it has something to do with Braga as well, because Braga is much, much, more, I think, at home with enterprise and TNG, where the primary focus is the weird spaceshit that's happening and the characters are less important. And he's come up with some weird spaceship that he wants to do. It's not terrible. You know, Baraga stuff is never terrible. Um, but it isn't any of the character stuff that we started off with. And I think taking us back to season one of Voyager, which I really liked. That was one of the things I enjoyed about the episode was the chance to see how different it was back in season one. really isn't that different. Okay, the sets look exactly the same. There's a few haircuts that are different and the doctor's on a screen. That is it. Well, but you'd forgotten all of that stuff, and that's done better later in episodes like worst case scenario and stuff, isn't it? Where we get to see what the sheep used to be like. But this does remind us of the part of Voyager that I enjoyed a lot that season one. Yeah, remember when the show was good. Oh no, we had Muse last week. You know, it's not too bad at the moment. No, no, no. I mean, like, it's not terrible at this point, but all of that stuff, you know, having Samantha Wildman in it, having Tuvok being called Lieutenant, having the doctor on the screen, having the doctor being more brash, you know, people being rude to the doctor the McKee stuff is still important somehow. All of that stuff, I think, is a little bit more kind of interesting and it's nice to see all that stuff. Again. We see we see Carey, don't we? We see Joe... you know, your fabulous Janeway Hair that you love. I like that. So, you know, like, I think there's stuff there that is not terrible. But if you can't buy the central thing and you absolutely can't because it's nonsense, then it's going to sabotage the episode and make it less fun to watch. The worst fair, right? And I just can't believe they tried to pull this off as convincing. The worst bit is where, you know, they managed to stop Kez in the past and go, right. This is what's going to happen in the future, all right? And then we cut to the future. And she's like, oh my god, I forgot that we have this conversation in the past. What? Like, what the fuck? But isn't the simple solution that they changed the future and they hadn't had that conversation? Do you know what I mean? That conversation hadn't happened when Kess comes on board the ship, but then she made it happen. Do you know what I mean in her past and that changed her past. It's not, oh, I forgot, which is so stupid. But then wouldn't that have made it happen all the time? Oh, I don't know, it was so stupid though. And just the fact that they try and pull it off. I was like, 0 yeah, we did have that conversation, didn't we, in the past? So bad. But there's a terrible solution to that, which they don't seem to hit on. It's very strange. Well, I can't wait. I mean, I'll tell you what, there was some fairly good special effects in this, I thought. but also some pretty dismal ones as well. There's a bit where Kez walks down the corridor so clearly matted as the sort of corridors are exploding around her. But I think that shot is actually pretty great. And I think the shot where part of the hull gets ripped off as well. And it's clearly being done to contrast with what they're able to in series one. Do you know what I mean? Like, to see that sort of stuff happening, you know, in the 1st few months of Voyager. There's an attempt to do that and I think that works as well. More than anything, it is the emotional, the lack of an emotional connection to the episode. That is the most baffling thing of all. In the, this is in built. Yeah, she was somebody we were invested in for 3.5 years. It should be a given that when she comes back, we feel something. And I just got nothing. Nothing at all. When she turned up on the screen, looking hideous, I was like, what is happening? Yeah. have we done? Yeah. I mean, think about Wesley coming back a couple of times. Think about the game or the 1st duty, you know. like those were great. Those were great moments. And this was just completely blown. Yeah. Just for the sake of, I think it's one of those ones where you have the incredible visual at the end of the cold open and Rag has gone that, you know, that sick. We need to do that, but is then completely unable to construct an episode that justifies it because it's nonsense. Maybe about poor you go, oh, let's think up a different gray visual. not do that. That's right. Well, I'm ready to watch 45 minutes of very stupid television. Let's do that. We always do. especially when we're in the 90s. As you'll notice, Nathan's added a special stupidity tab to the randomiser. That's right, you 2 can select the 90s tab now and just watch those 4 shows. Oh, no way. sorry. All the right wingers telling us. is when Star Trek was at its absolute best. Well, let's find out, shall we? Let's see. All right, I will count us in. 543, two, one, and we're off. Ta da. Voyager in space. Here we go. As usual. Okay. Oh, Jane Wade looks pissed. Yeah, so I don't think this scene works because it's stupid and I think we know that he's not being dressed down. Do you know what I mean? Like, and is she being mean to him? Is she making him think he's being dressed down? Like, they shouldn't be playing it quite as, as, as broad as this. We'll keep using that word. Now, but what does work is when she brandishes the cake and that beautiful Kate smile was on her face. And you're like, oh, I'll give you anything. you know? And when he says it was a fire hazard and she smiles. Also, the way she rolls her eyes when she gets summoned to the bridge. She goes some great pain in this. blow out the candle for me please. Just for me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. adorable. That is great. And what's really good is when we go back to this scene later, it's a different take. They don't just use the same tape. They don't just use the same thing. They get them to do it again. I think this sort of rock pool here is what Voyager calls humour you know. Yeah. Yeah, but very dismal, isn't it? Actually, that cake doesn't look very edible. Does it? It looks like a candle. No. Yeah, yeah, I don't know why it's shiny and blue. It's been spray painted, I think. That's the sort of the silver platter. It looks like a hat. Put the hat on too, Mark. Put the candle on your head. But hooray that they've actually remembered that Jane Ware and Schuvok have some kind of a friendship, which has long been abandoned in the show. Well, again, it's because the 2 main characters here are Tuvok and Janeway, and so we have to introduce them at the beginning because Tuvok's going to be a focus character because he's the one who can detect the time thing. Um, and he's the one, he's the one who is the biggest source of the difference between season 6, Voyager and season one Voyager. Oh, boy, look at Paul Cares on the screen. Dear, oh dear. Now that's what, 20 a day, and a bottle of whiskey's got to do to you, all right, in the intervening years. So, Kes, Jennifer is 20, uh, when the show starts, she's 25 here um, she doesn't, that's so young, and it had such visibility. Maybe maybe that's what happened then. Maybe it was just a bit... They all said about her in those 1st 3 years. She didn't integrate with any of the other actors. When they weren't performing, she went off on her own and she didn't, she wasn't involved in like the group activities. Oh, here we go. Look. Yeah, see, I think this looks amazing. It is fake, but I mean, it's Voyager in, in, you know, what year is it? 1999 or something? 2000 and something? Um, you know, like it's, it's, I think it's as good as they can do and it is as strike good as they can do. It's so strong. I'm like focussing more on the fact that the special effect doesn't work than the special effect itself, which is a shame because the actual the corridors blowing in looks incredible. Yeah, I think it looks amazing. And there's practical light on her, reflecting it. Like, I think it is a pretty good shot. But it's such an irresistible shot that they put this stupid episode. You know, they created this episode to justify it. But immediately it just doesn't work. My brain is working overtime going, well, why is she doing this? Why has she come back on board? Why is she tearing it apart? Like, and guess what? We'll never know. I know. Because she can't even articulate it. It's so dumb. Like, it's so dumb. Yeah, like if she'd done something bad. I'm trying to think, what would I have done? If I really, really wanted to do this episode? Has she killed a bunch of people by mistake because her powers get out of control? Is she angry that she was encouraged to do this? The big species she gets. Nathan, is that she goes, you took me away from my home. No, they didn't. In caretaker. You came to Janeway and had a 5 minute speech where you tried to convince her to take you. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Brandon, you wrote that. Dude, did you forget? Well, and Brian Fuller is the one who came up with the idea of how to write Kes out as well. You know, he's Did he write the gigs? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, he either has a story credit or he writes it, but he's in Michael Taylor, for God's sakes, he gave us counterpoint, you know like he can write it. Well, that's what I'm saying. I don't think that this is a badly structured or badly written episode of TV. I just think it's a really, really badly misjudged one. All of this stuff, I think, works really well. If it was someone else came aboard the ship. I mean, I was watching the... Angry Harry Kim? The sort of the labyrinthine plot unfold and I was just getting more and more angry. So let's see, this all makes sense. Yeah, I think that, you know, like I like the frock, I like her dress, you know, I think that Michael Westmore's ageing makeup is shit and was always going to be shit and I don't know why they thought that was a good idea. It sort of looks like a load of latex hanging off her face, doesn't it? It's very odd. where you can see the things around her eye sockets. Do you know what I mean? Where they've built up around her eye socket, so she looks like an alien, you know? This is the future I've got to look forward to, then count me out. I mean, that's pretty cool. Now, she wasn't in the shop then. She burst in all the walls and that was the way she stopped the guards from stopping her. Oh, look, the great meeting of 7 as she is now and cares. I think she just, she goes, get out of my way replacement. State your intentions. Well, I don't think I don't think that they get to interact, do they? Because they're in A plot and B plot, they don't really interact much. I think they're in the same room at some point in the gift. Is this the only way that she can go back in time then? Uh, well, she wants to go back to Voyager. So she wants to go back onboard Voyager in order to punish for her to when she was on a camper and go, do you know what? Don't leave. don't. Yeah, yeah. Bet she needs to. We wouldn't have an episode then, would we? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and I thought using the warp core, using her power to do the warp core, all of that's fine. Do you know what I mean? Like if she has special magic powers. I think killing B'lana and not... Yeah, but that was the point where I was like out of it. So that there's a reset here because we're not killing B'lana in this stupid episode, are we? But that's that's normal, though. You know that everything's going to be okay. Every 5 minutes. No, but it's a time travel thing and so you know there's a way out of it. But the big thing is how do they get out of it? We do this so often on Voyager, these boring time travel episodes. You know, we did relativity last year. Next year we're doing it all again in the finale. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. How many times do we go back in time to when Voyager was good? And you know what? God bless her. She's a little uh, I don't want to say chunkier, but there is, her frame's a little bit different. It's like, oh, obviously, it's been a couple of years since the original. But I just got nothing from her as the younger cares at all. No, and like, I think she's playing that properly because she's like uncomfortable in this role because she is angry old, Kes. But it's not fun to watch. Why bring her back and get her to play someone else? Someone completely unlike cares? So is this the past? I'm sorry, Belano's hair did not look like that in series one. Yeah, it's meant to be the past. Do you remember she had really short air in series one? And the makeup was totally different. But what they did was give her curly hair in season 6 and straight hair in season one. So they did, that's the hairstyle. You know what it is, right? You've got the doctor come in here, right? There was that wonderful relationship that they had in series one to three. But because of their stupid fucking premise that they've kicked in. We can't return to that because she's behaving in a sort of suspicious way. So there's no feeling in these scenes at all. No. But, but you do get Bob. You do get the best Robert doing his season one acting and that is actually fun. Like, I'm happy to see that, you know. I'm just happy to see him. Well, yeah, but all of this stuff that's been abandoned as the show has gone on is all back. Did you say undergoes? chosen a name. I thought maybe pasta, you know, something like that. Do you know what he settles on? Do you remember? A mighty name, may I say? Well, yeah, I don't think that sticks, though. If he's not called Joe in Academy. I am out, all right? Oh, here we go. In the airport expay. Yeah. Do you remember when Kez in series 2 Cold Fire? She made all the plants come alive in her wonderful sequence. Yeah, yeah, but you're right. There's something because she's playing this character because of this stupid premise. There's no real pleasure in seeing her here, is there? No, it's so strange. Yeah, yeah. Poor, poor, innocent season one cares is knocked out and shoved in a cupboard. Yeah, shoved in a drawer. That's right Oh, they still can't quite do 2 of the same actor in one shot. No no. I mean, they can, but they spend all their money on blowing up the corridor. Ooh, what is? Look how long that bit of food's been sitting there, that prop. I mean, that Jesus concealed all over the burger. Oh, here we go. Voyager banter. Uh, yeah, the greasy. Why does he call her sweeting instead of sweeting? sweetie. I think that's just the spell, the stupid, um, I think he calls her sweetie. I think the subs are wrong. Oh, look, they're remembering how Janeway was just obsessed with coffee in series one. Do you remember? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. She walked into the mess all that time and she went, black coffee black now. It's like, oh, well, I've got some things that are coffee black now. Well, I mean, they do in prodigy, they do kind of land on that as an important character point as well, I think. She's absolutely convinced that there's coffee in that nebula in one episode, you know. That's a great line. It's a great one. But yeah, she's in sick bake, coffee in the nebula. Season one man. It was good times. And so once this, this doesn't go anywhere. See, this is unpleasant to watch, isn't it? I think. Well, she's not charmed by him. Because she should be. No, and she just, like, just says now, can I have the coffee? And because she wants to kill them all. Like, she's there to kill everyone and it's just like, what, like what? You know what it feels like? It feels like they have written an episode, right, that forces Jennifer Lien in the situation that she's actually in in real life and that is coming back into this group of people after several years of being away and everybody's moved on and feeling utterly dislocated and uncomfortable. And they've actually written that into the episode for some reason. But the, the version of this, which is, which takes place in season one, I don't think suffers from these problems. Do you know what I mean? Like they could have done this plot, I think. Oh, whatever we'd all be going, my God, is this all coming in the future? But you wouldn't because we changed the future so that it never happened. So do you know what I mean? But that would be that would work. Maybe it works in season one. Do you know what I mean? Imagine that, old Kes. Because remember she's young, we know she's 9 years old. We go on and on. She's got a nine-year lifespan. So, you know, we were all wondering what, she's going to look a state by season seven, you know, what's going to happen? I just remembered, you know, relativity. You know, to try and traffic one in series five. It's the Penol maps. is a great episode where 7 goes back in time. That goes back to season one as well. Yeah, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So maybe it's a thing that they do. Oh, I'm so sorry. I've just poured coffee all over your pad. I mean what are you doing? Yeah, but I do like her reaction. I do like a reaction. But yeah, does this work? Why doesn't she just go back in time, right? Knock out little cares. Take her away. That's what she's doing. Yeah, but why did she kill them as well? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, because and you know what, right? You could have Samantha Wildman in Voyager anyway. You don't have to go back to series one. She's still around. know. I know, but I think having her, having Joe Carey, um, you remember when we almost had semi-regulars in the show? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you know what I mean? That's a season one thing. Like, it feels more like season one, we're calling Tuvok Lieutenant instead of Commander. Um, all of that stuff. and the Vedians, which have to be the most successful, the better aliens. And we get them back for the last time. you know. That's a good. I mean, I love the bit where the clamp grabs Voyager. It starts sort of gnashing through the hole. That's quite cool. In a way that they couldn't really have achieved in season one quite as well, you know, like I'd like that. Oh, here's button hair, Jane Way. Yeah, yeah, I like that. It's not my favourite hair. I know that's great, isn't it? They did well to last as long as they did. It was season four. Oh, I love her later hair when she goes very sort of late 90s. Well, yeah, his American lady hair. I like when she has the long ponytail at the back. So it looks like this from the front, but it's long at the back. That's my favourite hair. I mean, when she takes her hair down in series one and it just flows all down her shoulders. She looks so feminine. Yeah. Beautiful, wonderful. Where she just says in resolution. Do you remember when she came out in the gown? No wonder Chakoto couldn't resist her. Wow. Yeah, no, exactly. Do you know what? I was sorry, there's nothing about this episode, but I was watching a clip the other day about from a convention where Mulgrew and Beltran are talking about resolutions, and Jakotay goes, and I was trying everything to seduce her down on this planet, and she was obsessed with this fucking monkey all the time. Okay, it's like, it was a really interesting little monkey. What can I say? They have great fun taking the Mickey out of these episodes, you know. That's awesome. It's a shame Liam's had such a terrible time. She could come and talk about this. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It's very sad. So we have, I mean, we have this thing too, which gives us interesting visuals. And one of the things that struck me because I've watched some 90s. I've watched some, you know, a Kurtzman trek this week and how much more interesting space looks than it used to look in early 90s trek. And so here it's taking place against these vacuoles and we have to do some special space things or whatever, but it just gives us some more interesting visual, um, which is something. Tellingly, you know, Tom Paris and Harry Kim, look exactly the same in series one as they did in series six. They don't know any different at all. I think the worst Robert has less hair. Um, I think his hairline is been moving back. And again, like this is well structured in that we get to give her time with everyone. So time with the doctor time with Neelix time with Catherine time with Tom. All of those major relationships. But what do we get from that? Because she's being duplicitous. Exactly. Do you know what I mean? Like they're giving us in a sense what we want to see, but they've fucked it up because of the basic stupid premise. And because she's sort of doing all these weird, nefarious technobabbly things, they're not talking about their relationships you know, which absolutely they should be doing. Well, because it's the past, you know, like that's the thing. I think that's that thing. I know, but it's not our path. This is us catching up with her now. So we should be reminded of all the great things about her character and all of the great relations. Well, not great. I mean, she was never that great, but... I mean, she's, I like her. positive things about her. Yeah. She's got that... Naomi Wildman. Always very exciting when little moppets turn up, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. So, Naomi Wildman is, um, half caterion. And that name is used, in fact, for the aliens from the game. Um, so they're different, aren't they? They've got different... Oh, that was so great. Remember where 90s trek was really great. Yeah, yeah. But then this, do you know what I mean? Like, again, it's just a reminder. of where we've come from and apparently we had one last year. It's been forgotten about. Oh, we died, did he? Oh, sorry. Two episodes ago. Oh, was it? In series 6? Yeah, in Friendship one. He comes back in friendship one, just a couple of... series seven. That's the end of series seven. Yeah. Oh, okay. Oh okay. So we see him in this. We see him once in series seven, but between maybe the end of two and this he's never been again once. So he's in, so they bring him back in series 7 to just kill him, is that right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, that's right. Even Joe Hogan got better than that. Do you remember where they found his bones in the cave, those dinosaurs? Yeah, that's great. Oh, look at this. tearing apart the quarters. She's even doing that half-hearted. only knocked a chair over. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. That's right. She was tearing the corridor off before. Now she's just pushing some chairs. Would you were tearing that set to pieces of warlord? Give it some. But if this had been a season one episode. The more I watch this, the more I think this is a banger if it's in season one. Unfortunately, I've got something unfortunate to tell you, it's a series 6 episode. And it's terrible as a result. Okay. Look how grisly the patians are. So this is Vaughan Armstrong as a Videan captain, and he will be back as Admiral Forrest in Enterprise. I do like the, look at the way he's got his sort of one bit of hair going over his scabby face. Because, you know, I think they're great. They're properly good aliens of Adeans. They really good. Because they kind of make you recoil a bit because it's so disgusting. I mean, we'll never forget what we're in faces when he took away that poor man's face and slapped it on his own itself. So amazing. That was great. Yes. Yeah. So now we know. She's contacted Evide and she's basically selling out the crew to kill them because she wants to kill them all, which would have been great in series one and super weird, but horribly upsetting now. Well, they do try and give her emojis. Don't they? She go, you know, you infected me with your ideals. You have ideas of exploration. Exit stuff. Wow, you monsters. It's almost like if they could, if. And they can't, because none of it makes any sense. If they could have made that scene work, then maybe you could justify this. Yeah. Yeah. but I don't think they could. I don't think they could. I think they could if this wasn't a thing that really happens. Do you know what I mean? Like, I don't think there's things that really happened. It's all made up. And, and, but if a, a hypothetical future, Kes, who by the end of the episode hasn't ever happened. Um, uh, you know, if she comes from the future and is is mean and evil and stuff and Jennifer's still into it and is playing her and being fun and fooling the rest of the crew and we haven't missed her so we don't feel so bad about this because she was in it last week and she'll be in it again next week. I think this works incredibly well. But I think this is just terrible. Poor old Chuvol, right? They mostly only drag him out now when something weird's going on and he goes, you know, I can sense something strange happening in the room. And Janeway should say like, do you remember what, what, like that little girl in flashback that you kept seeing or, you know, that time we were being experimented on by aliens and didn't realise it or... She should listen to him. He's always right. He is always right. Well, he's too far. He's awesome. Yeah. Yeah, anyway. What the hell was this cloud they're going into here? So it's full of subspace vacuoles, whatever they are. It's like Swiss. That's not the sort of thing you don't really want to. Is that what's behind you there on the Zoom call with a subspace facial? Yeah. Yeah. And but it means that they are trapped, you know, like they're going through this sort of space and they're trapped and it gives us a little bit of sort of interesting business sort of interesting business. That doesn't waste too much. Right, right. Apart from Jane Way's hair, this could be, see, series 6. this whole shot on the bridge. Okay. Yeah, yeah. If I was doing a DS9 episode in series 6. and was going back to season one, I'd see a visually different show. Everybody, I mean, Cisco, Jesus Christ. everybody would look completely different. All the relationships would be completely different. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But this show doesn't do that. It's quite telling. trapped in amber as much as we are. Yeah. Yeah. But I still thought that there was enough and it was sort of fun to revisit it, you know. There was that wonderful bit in series 4. It's the gift again. I think it starts with all of the Borg implants all over the ship. I think it's the 1st show, the gift. you know? We've just come out of school. Scorpion and they've made all the changes. Yeah, that would have been so great. Yeah. No, week after, everything's back to normal. All fixed. Well, just like the big rip in the hull this week. How do you play these sort of scenes where you're sensing a disturbance? Is it a bit like indigestion? Some people, actually. I think team looks like it just or when you've got traffic gas or something. That was the note he got from the director. Although I do like, you know, the fact that you've got Naomi and her mother and Carey. It's like, oh, please, why can't you have a semi-regular guest cast? It just adds so much to a show. It really does. It does. Even TNG adds 7 people. Mr. Malt, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Barclay and Rose sometimes and, you know... And all the characters that came in and out, Gower. There's a gun, Waxana, and, you know, those like a queue. All those people that we saw every now and again. Yeah. It was a very odd call, wasn't it? just taking all those characters out and making it just about 7 people. I know. It's terrible. It's the stupidest thing about it, I think. I mean, it's always a bit stupid. Do you know what I mean? It's like we're going on this mission and it turns out everyone in the ship is, you know, in the opening credits and that's normal. We still do it in strange new worlds. Do you know what I mean? Like that's absolutely a Star Trek thing. But it is artificial and if they can do a little bit more to kind of paper over it and just make it seem like there's more than 9 people on the ship. That's pretty good, I think. Discovery did a sort of effort. effortlessly without infringing on the main cast. You add Denver and O war and people like that there. But, yeah, it was still about those central characters. What's really baffling, Nathan, is the fact that they then focus in on those 7 characters and fail to develop half of them. Yeah, you've given them so much time. But again, it's doing the plot thing, isn't it? It's just doing the plot stuff. Yes, Chevot goes, you know, I think you might have died here once you know? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I was shocked by that. I'd forgotten that he, she just kills her. and then, you know, get to see it again. No, but I didn't feel much if I'm honest, and I probably should. Well, except that when it's a fake death like that. Having everyone feel very bad about it, as we saw in our most recent episode, vanishing point where we were breaking the new star, she's father. But we happen to have this small amount of goo that we can send you. senity. Like, that's bad. Do you know what I mean? Like that's bad. And so what happens is we killed Bilana, then we go into the past so we don't have to watch everyone distressed about Bilana's death. Did you see that? then it unhappens. Did you see that? So Chuvok was sort of going into synaptic distress or something like that. And then there was a close-up. There was a close-up on K as if she was actually feeling something. Oh my god. Maybe I do still have some feelings about this. But unfortunately, the end still looked utterly blank. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think the close up was supposed to be, oh, God, am I doing the right thing? But, I mean, how do you how do you play this? It's so fake. And even if she's not checked out. She's kind of like, like Cassie's now suddenly evil, but how do I play that? Like when she was playing the warlord? If this is series one and she's playing hypothetical future evil case, then she gets to have fun. Here, it's just unpleasant. Do you remember as well? In Caretaker, they rescued her. She was bruised and being bloody raped and things by the Cazon. How could she be angry with these people? They've showed her nothing but kindness. And she loved them. Do you know what I mean? Like she was so kind to the doctor. She was so kind to Janeway. She has that beautiful deep caramel voice. She's got that pretty smile. Like, I like Kess a lot. I don't think she's a great character. and I don't think she's a great character because I don't think they gave her enough focus. Like when they did, she was really fun. I think Cold Fire is great. I quite, I still quite like before and after. I know we had a lot of issues with it. I think she's really good in it though. She has a lot to do in that episode. Well, she's certainly given it more welly than this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You shouldn't give much less welly than this, though. I do like her yelling at these some, these video, though. It's just like, yeah, well, suck it. You know, it's your problem because you want me to help you shouldn't we be seeing some kind of conflict? Because like, at the end, where Janeway just, you know, gives her a very pat speech and she goes, she goes, oh, my God, I remember how much I love you, people. What am I doing? There's no conflict. There's no conflict And if, did you know what I mean? If evil future cares comes in, then we don't have to have conflict because she's evil, but this is our cares, you know? We'd be thinking then, is what the hell happened to make her life? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right. They could have made it worse. They could have made she could have blown up a whole planet with her amazing mind powers, but because then it will never have happened at the end, then it's fine. You know what I mean? And we're still asking, what the hell happened to make her like this? And we're getting no... We never found out. No. They were nice out there in the universe, though. Like, that was so bad. Do we ever loan? No, she turned her into this sort of... Murderous, like a mess murderer. Who's going to kill 100s of people for no reason. Oh, look at this. These massive claws coming out of the podian ship. Straight into them. Yeah, it's so good. Go on, quick, take the pit with Jaco saying. hes not needed. Oh, no, Janeway's there as well. It's really visceral as well, because the camera shakes, the computer generated camera, when the, when it's not just the real live camera on the bridge set that shakes, but the actual camera shakes, I think, when the thing hits the, hits the hull. The documentary drone on the exterior of the ship. is suffering puppeting. It's great. That's pretty great. Oh boy. Actually, no, I'm lying, actually. Do you remember Harry Kim did have wonderful hair and syrup to one or two? It sort of hung over his face in a very early 90s sort of boy bandish sort of a way. It was pretty great. It was very early, yeah. Yeah. Oh, I, we always have no readings. and they're the same. We always knew things were bad because Jane Ways and Kim's hair would sort of be in disarray in the tensest moments. Exactly. Exactly. And Chakotay was quite hot in those early seasons. Do you remember? He had a bit of gray in his hair early. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, they seem to have, they seem to have died it out. They found just for men in the future. Yeah, that's right. Oh, boy. Does she start talking to her younger self now? I'm gonna get you out of here. How do you play that? I know, because it's so stupid. It's just ridiculous I'm taking you home. No. Now this is where I, oh, it just gets so annoying. This whole confrontation with younger kids, older kids, Saint Jane Wen. But we have Videans firing those fabulous space guns in the corridor and stuff and we haven't actually interfere with Kes's plans. Like she can't leave. Deadlock was better. Do you remember? They would go around. And they were literally going around with their scanners going. Oh, he's got a very good spleen. Right. Keep him for later, you know. But again, remember once that starts happening. We know that some timey thing's going to happen so that it's not real or whatever. You know, it's the same problem, but I think it's better constructed. This is so bad. It's like, don't show your face, love. Do you know what I mean? She's unconscious, so we can't see her face. Who is that extra? Just like, get in my get in my chest, yeah. All right. It's easy in a dress. I don't want to see Kez throwing Jane way across the room. No, that's no fun, but this, you know, no, look, they're doing the threshold thing. Phase of fire going across the door. It's wonderful It's awesome That is so cheap. Just a laser beam down across. Come on. Okay, now let's see. She's a prisoner on this ship. No one's a prisoner here, cares. I was a child. You corrupted me with your ideas. What ideas? Acceleration. I believed you. What? You corrupted me with the ideas of exploration and discovery. Oh, thank God, we're back on the bridge, discharged the antigraviton pulses. Oh, thank God. But this is kind of exciting. Do you know what I mean? This is an exciting confrontation where they tear themselves away free from the big things, you know, like I think that's great. Hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on. So she's telling Janeway now that in 3.5 years she's leaving the ship. That doesn't get reset. So how does Janeway not know? So, wait, wait, wait. No, no, no. So it does, she does she doesn't know, she does know when it comes back because it hasn't happened yet. So she's leaving it, but she's telling Janeway in the past that she's going to leave in 3.5 years. Yeah. So why does Jake Weigh act surprised when that happens? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. that's true. That's true. See, you start doing these things. It falls over like a house of cards. Whereas, yeah, so, but I do like when we replay the scene, but now Janeway remembers this thing having happened. Yeah, but I don't like it when we replay the scene and Kez suddenly remembers. Oh, but it hadn't happened then. It hadn't happened. That was it. When she left, she hadn't come back in time yet. and changed the past. And so when she leaves in 3.5 years, fury hasn't happened yet, so Janeway doesn't remember this because it hadn't happened. But now she has gone back in time. So it should have always have happened. No, no, no, that's not how it works in this episode. That's not how time works. time works. You go back into the past and change what you mean. Yeah, it hadn't changed before. Yeah, I know. fucking stupid is what it is. No, no. But that all makes sense. That all makes sense. Oh my god. Even her falling over when she got shot then was terrible. Did you see it? But she literally kills cats. Like she just kills her and that's awful. Why would we want to see that? But it literally happens. So she's dead, right? And that's the thing that happens. And now that's the version of what happened. It hadn't happened before. That was a culmination, which Janeway. Which case, attack Janeway, and then Janeway... Janeway murders her. But but that didn't happen the original in the original season one right? So she's gone back and changed season one. And so now when we go back to season six, she remembers all of that stuff having her. Oh, I know what you're saying. I just don't know that it makes any sense to me. Like, I feel as if now she's gone back and done it. It always happened. No, no, no, it hadn't happened before. Are you sure? She changed it. Yeah, there was a run through where it'd have normally when season one happened as we saw. And then she goes back to season one and changes season one and gets herself killed in the process and now that changes things. I think it all makes sense. I just don't do any of this. But I, this is Braga. Like, you have Braga, and when he decides, later on, he'll decide that high concept things are too hard and the show will be about you know, like, they don't even do high contact or character. just nothing. Nothing. But when he does high concept stuff. I think it's well thought through and I think it's fun and interesting, but this is, he gets all of the character stuff. He just brutally, tragically wrong. I think. Okay, what's happening now? Oh, this is where they go right. This is real. We're going to tell you now. In the future, you're going to be totally evil and try a murderer right? So would you please try and remember that we were really nice to you in the past, okay? No, no, no, but she's saying, you like us, right? You do like us. She said, yeah. You remember that you chose to be here. Yeah. Well, can you just record a thing and say that to your other self? so that she remembered. Yeah, yeah. Is this scene now? I'm sorry. When she is, I just can't get over this bit when she... Oh my god, yes, of course. But, but we had that chat, didn't we? But, but, but, but it hadn't happened. Like they hadn't had that chat. That's why he's still doing this. It makes sense. Are you sure? I'm not convinced. But again, this is a slightly different take. Oh, Kate, that smile. See, this is much nicer. It's nice to see, you know, giving a birthday cake to somebody didn't it, is seeing a murder, somebody. Yeah, that's right. That's right It's going from that to that in a single episode that's right Watch out on Voyager. You'll either get a birthday cake or you'll be shot to death one or the other. And then smile. Come on, I know, I know. It's a glorious, isn't it? Oh, she's still smiling when she walks on the bridge. Yeah, yeah, yeah. it's wonderful How lovely she's thinking to have a character scene in this more terrible episode. Yeah. And then suddenly she remembers. So now she remembers, oh, shit, this is happening from our at my end now. Why is this not all documented? They know exactly when this is coming. Like, oh, they couldn't tell anyone. She didn't want to tell anyone. She sent the doctor out and only Tuvok and her know about this past thing. Yeah exactly. So why are they not preparing for this moment? Why is there not a diary? This game's prepared. Kes is coming today. No, she's literally just remembered. And gone, well, yes, right. today right? It's because there's no there's no Stardate this episode. Sorry, I knew I was going to shout a lot watching this. There's no Stardate. And so that's why she doesn't know because she looked at her calendar this morning. Fine. Then roughly in 6 years, I'll set a diary date. Evil cares is coming. Well, yeah. But she knows it now. Conveniently, everybody forgot, and then they remembered. Well, no, yeah, or it didn't... So we could have the intervening years and all of it makes sense. But again, what I do like is that it's sorted. Like they don't, at this point, they've had 6 years to prepare and she just fixes it. Do you know what I mean? Like it, it, it, they solve the problem. But the solution is so dumb. Like, the say is dumb. They knew she was coming and she was going to tear apart the ship and people were going to die. couldn't they have just stopped that from happening somehow? dies, who dies? Well, she's tearing out bulkheads there. I'm assuming someone's in those rooms. Oh yeah, but they're not exposed to space. They're interior corridor. She's not mind those people. They're just the little people that we don't talk about. That's right. No, they're smashing people up. They're smashing the things up, but here we go. This is the bit in engineering. Yeah. Just terrible. And like, you know, I don't blame Jennifer for this scene. where she goes, How do I play this? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Bless her. That awful makeup. You blame Janeway, but the choice was yours. It's all very strange. You made a decision to leave a combo. Thank you, brother. You finally remembered the part. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Why has she forgotten that? How has she forgotten that? It was so it was 6 years ago. Why is she taking revenge? Like, what's going on? It just makes no sense. She must have been through something terrible, you know? No, it was all that discovery and exploration. And those ideals, she was forced to do those dangerously positive ideals about exploring space. And then she goes, oh, yeah, but yes, yes. Again, oh, yeah. I know. I know. I just was, do you know what? I may have felt it because you know the screen. Yeah, I think I would often attack Montelli, but I may have done at this point. I mean, it's so bad. It's such a bad idea. And it matters when you do this to a character, I think. She's literally telling her what happened in her own past. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. How could she have forgotten it? It makes no sense. There's no nothing, they, it's not possible, I think, to come up with a satisfactory way of getting. You can't got it. Do you not remember? In before and after. They said when the accompanies get older, it's like dementia, isn't it? It's like, oh, they wouldn't be great. It would be terrible. But at least if she, like, she's so old that she's sort of forgotten, there's the details are a bit muzzy. that maybe? Well, it's nearly her whole lifespan, remember? Like, they live to, but, you know, like when you're... You wanted me to remember. Oh, I was. Oh, yeah. Oh, and she's doing it with this awful makeup. Oh, boy. Yeah. Yeah. And that's it. Because the premise is very dumb. the memory. I buried... I just forgot, she goes, just because of the plot, I forgot. Yeah, yeah, it's ridiculous. Just absurd. Oh, Joe, look, Paul Cage. She's trying to give this to Wellies. I like I like the line. Does it matter which guy goes home? This is the scene right, if you're going to do this ridiculous episode. This is a scene that could have landed after all the fireworks where we're saying goodbye. Look at that, she's dead behind the eyes, Jennifer Leanne. I think... I like, he says just looking and she says, do you see anyone you know? And he just is just you. I like that exchange. But I don't feel that there's any relationship here. very much back. Ethan's giving it all. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. But it's not a bad scene. Like, it's not badly written. I would have loved for this to have been an episode like the gift where she just reconnects with everybody and has seen to be... Robert Picardo and scenes with Kate Mulgrew and just had a genuinely quiet and moving character tale. They just can't do it, can they? No, no, no. No, it's funny. I think, is it just it's Voyager, and it's weird, crazy high concept shit, and then next time it'll be the cheese, and then, do you know what I mean? It will be macro viruses and stuff, like it's just incredible nonsense every week and that's, you know, why the boy gets made into a museum. Yeah. ship just goes off and that's it. We never know what happens to her. Let's assume she gets home, shall we? I suppose. Yeah, maybe. Yeah, yeah, not good. She never gets mentioned again. Never. I'm trying to think what lands in DS9 is spot in series 6. I think it's the sound of her voice, which is exactly why I just described you there, a quiet character tale about relationships and everyone's struggling during wartime. in high concept, timey thing in there, you know. But they're in completely different places, doesn't it, when it comes to characterisation. And so I think Voyager in series 6, because we've done a lot of series 6, now we've done barges of dead. We done Alice, we've done Muse, we've done collective. And that's a real mixture of episodes, right, in terms of good and bad. And I think it is mostly all high concept of the week with some occasional character stuff thrown in. So it's just as how well they execute the high concept, I think rather than, especially in terms of the writing, rather than, oh they're interesting characters to follow at this point because I'm not sure that there are. Well, I think, like, think about Muse, which I think is an absolute top tier episode of Voyager and a great episode of Star Trek. And it just relies on the fact, not that B'Lan's a very well delineated character, but on the fact that Roxanne gives just a reliably superb performance. And because it's about the show and about Star Trek in all sorts of ways, so it matters, it's meaningful. And it's about the process of storytelling and it's got all sorts of things to say, you know, like I think that's properly good. Here. We've got like a central image which has taken over Brannan Braga's brain and a decent time travel plot that's well executed and well done, and absolutely no regard for a character who has mattered to us. And so it's dumb because it makes no sense from a character standpoint. And it's unpleasant. the ultimate character assassination in Star Trek. I can't think of the worst one. Really? And like, by the time we get to, we're nearly at the end of the season, and that's where they're trying to do a sort of big 7 of 9 Borg episode, and it's Unimatrix zero, they can't even do that right now. It's a bit of a shit. This was your chance to shine. You had series 6 and 7 where you were the only trek on the airwaves and you gave us fury. All right, it's the end of the episode and it's time for us to work out where we're going next. And I have control over the randomiser, and so we're going to choose from a 21st century series of Star Trek. In fact, we're going to choose from among the 2 episodes of Starfleet Academy that have aired at the time of this recording. It's your only way of forcing me to watch modern television, isn't it? That's right Well, we did do it with Strange New Worlds. We watched the 1st episode of Strange New Worlds together and that turned out pretty good, I think. I've added Starfleet Academy to the Randomiser last week and it is ready to go for me to press the button. Star Trek 90210, don't you? Well, yeah. There'll be plenty to talk about when it comes to that. As long as they're all hot, I'll be fine. They are all very hot. So I'm going to press the button. And it's season one, episode two. Oh, God. beta test. It's very good, but I don't think we're going to choose it. No, I will press the one again. We could be a while. Okay. So it season, one, episode one, kids these days, um, and no, is that what it's called? It's actually a really great name for it. Because, of course, it's about kids. Oh, God. And it's about these days, which are, of course, the 31st century or the 32nd century or wherever the hell we are in this version of Star Trek. How far off the night is Trek, are we here? Sort of the period of 90s trek. So 8 or 900 years or something. It quite a long time. Okay. So you'll see Admiral Vance is in this 1st episode. Tignataro's Jet Reno is in the 2nd episode. The doctor is obviously in this and it's just our doctor from Voyager, who is still with us all this time later. It's a whole host of handsome Twinks, I hope. Yes, yep. Yep, yep. And older people as well. So there's a big cast. I think it has interesting things to say about the present time and we will talk about... We'll certainly talk about the reaction from the Nazi Star Trek fans, you know. Yeah, people very, very cross. Gem Hadar woman. Have you seen the interview with Earth? so funny She's going. Yeah, I've been reading all this stuff online. There's no such thing as Gemadar women. And she goes, for God's sake, it's the fucking future, for God's sake, just, and it's all made up. Like, of course, it could be Gemini. It's all fiction. We're not chronicling the future. Well, it was like the people going, what, a Klingon medical student, Klingon son. Doctors. And it's just like, so you don't think they're going to mention that in the episode? You don't think anyone involved knows that? Like, it's, these are people who are not very good at literary criticism, and furthermore, they people who don't deserve to enjoy another hour of Star Trek for the rest. There is a lot of them, isn't there? It's really odd. I think they're the people that voted for Trump, you know. I think they might have been. Yes, well, you know, few or you may have been very stupid indeed but not quite as stupid as that contingent of Star Trek fans. Absolutely. They probably like Fury. Oh, I expect they do. Remember when Star Trek was highbrow, you know? Well, this will be fun. looking forward to it. Yeah, well, I mean, I wouldn't watch it otherwise, so let's do it. Brilliant. You've been listening to entitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford and Nathan Bottomley, where online at untitled Star Trek Project com, where you can find subscription links and links to our social media accounts. Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceran, and the theme is composed by Cameron Lahn. This episode was recorded on the 20th of January 2026 and released on the 23rd of January. We'll see you next time for Star Trek Starfleet Academy, kids these days. Oh, OK. Is it a normal episode, like 45 minutes? Oh, Christ, okay. First episode 70 minutes, a 2nd episode 60. Have you got access to it? Yeah. Yeah, so I'm paramount, I think. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I'll watch it over the weekend. So much fun. Holy shit, it looks amazing as well. Like it just, I was thinking about the gray fucking corridors of Voyager as I was watching it. Um, and it's, It just looks incredible. It is like the promenade. Yeah, I can't wait to see that. Yeah, yeah. And that's that's on board the ship, the Athena, which is the ship that it partly takes place on. Yeah, yeah. And the earth looks weird, like it's weird. You know, because they're the 1st class to go back to Earth. Um, because we saw Starfleet Academy open in Discovery in, I think it's probably season 3 because all of the, all of the new recruits are standing. All of the new cadets are standing like one. 5 years away from one another as the speech like Michael gives a speech or whatever or someone gives a speech. I can't remember. Vance, possibly. I was teaching somebody the other day, you know, about dead space shots. Yeah, I was going, no, Mark Donaldson. I was going, no, no. I can't remember what he was watching, but I knew there was a swing, a camera swing round with someone on the right and then all that space at the left. I said, when you start noticing it, it's everywhere. It's so bad. So funny. Unless we're supposed to take in how lovely the sets are. Yes, yeah. I can't imagine. That is tapestry. That ridiculous moment in tapestry where Beverly literally moves everyone to the corner of the shot so that they've got room to beam in in front of the camera. It's so great. Oh, I like it when they step as well. You know, when they sort of step back. So there's room for people to come. It's so good. Just move the camera back.