In the Pale Moonlight

Hey, Joe. Hi. Joe, I want you to tell the listener at home what we're watching today. What we're watching today, Nathan, is widely considered to be one of the best episodes of Deep Space 9. Yeah. widely considered to be one of the best episodes of Star Trek. I took a good look at Wikipedia before coming onto this recording and it cited like literally 50 sources. It's on all the lists, the top 10 lists. It's, you know, all those great Star Trek experts out there that have brought out books. It's on all of their lists as well. Today we are going to be watching and talking about in the pale moonlight. I think it is pretty good, but I still maintain it's not as good as Take Me Out to the Hollow Suite. I think you are unique in that opinion, you know. Well, I mean, I've got a question for you before. I've got some trivia, but I do have a question for you, okay? How do you feel about the Dominion Warrock? Because I don't actually know. How you feel about that? I think it's interesting to do that. and I can see why they did do it because Star Trek the Next Generation had been very stayed and they had basically kind of aped that at the beginning of Deep Space 9, you know, so Star Trek spinoff and they were basically doing the same sort of thing. And I do think that they do it well. And I think it enables them to go places that other Star Treks hadn't been, and I'm always here for that. I think that Star Trek should be doing things that are new rather than just sort of warming over old Star Trek, the Next Generation Plants, like Voyager sometimes does. Well, and DS9 was guilty of that in his 1st company. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I also think that probably it's the only 90s trek that could have sustained it because the characters are so strong and there are so many of them. And it also gives, you know, the alpha quadrant a kind of feel to it, a structure. We get a kind of sense of what the galaxy's like. And I think all of that stuff is good. I do have reservations about it a bit though. And one of the reasons is that, for me, Star Trek has a kind of mission to show a future for humanity that's better. And we do win, obviously, the Dominion War, and it's all fine. But sometimes I think it strays into territory that's probably best left to Battlestar Galactica. And maybe even this week's episode does that a little bit. I mean, I agree with you. And I disagree with you. I agree with you in that, you know, Star Trek kind of has a mission statement to show a better future. But I think maybe that's a little bit boring at times. And I think this is really interesting to watch because it's full of drama and action and suspense and great character work, but it may be like those people that are out there waving placards saying that this is betraying the Roddenberry ideal, whatever that might be. Maybe they've got a point, you know. The Mary White House is of the Star Trek universe. Yeah, I think, you know, like the Roddenbury ideal is always something that's kind of read back into Star Trek. I don't think it's really particularly present in the original series. No, well, from what I was reading, a lot of the original series was influenced by Gene Coon rather than Gene Roddenberg. So I think the kind of the purest Gene Robinbury that we get is when the next generation was launched. That's when he had the greatest sort of creative control. And look at it. Justice. Like, you know, justice and hide and cue and all that nonsense like, really? Yeah, code of honour. Would we have had 21 seasons of 90s trek if it had continued in that vein? But also think as well, with DS9, they deliberately said it in a static location. And they said, you know, we want Star Trek to have consequences. That was part of the remit of this show, was that they couldn't just warp away from the problems that were occurring, where they're set. So I think to get here was kind of inevitable, because otherwise what can you do with a static setting? Yeah, yeah, you can't just send 2 characters off in a runabout every week to a different moon of beja or something? Like it always needed to go somewhere else. And I think it does that really well. And it is the 1st Star Trek to experiment with proper serialised storytelling. And I think it does a really good job of that. And in that context. I think this episode is really, really interesting. The approach that it takes, the way it's structured. Um, like I'm really on board with it. And I do think, like, generally speaking, a show is either like arc-based. So it's like Picard, which is like, like I said before, chapters in a novel, that's so serialised that you can't really dip in and out, or you're like a procedural, like the next generation, and most episodes, pretty much all of them, are standalone, and at the beginning, the problem's there, at the end, the problem's solved and then off we go again. DS9 is quite unusual in that it absolutely has standalone episodes and a lot of them. But it does have this arc running through it as well, quite smartly as well. And I think come series 6. That's the point where 6 and 7 is where the arc is like heaviest and it has the most influence on every single episode. Like you look at six. There is a Dominion reference or it feeds into the main arm in some way. Uh, every single episode. But they still feel like individual pieces of drama in their own right, you know? And there's still space for one little ship. And the magnificent Ferengi, take me out to the hollow suite, that are being ba bang, you know, and things like that. Yeah, I think that that's where discovery actually lands, you know 30 years later is basically standalone stories, but with an ongoing arc, an arc that comes to a head at the mid-season break which is actually where we are in discovery series 4 as we record this. Astonishing, really. I don't like it more than... I do, isn't it? But I think that that means that Deep Space 9 actually hits on a more kind of a mature and interesting way of telling a story by having a series of events that happened to a known group of people that are some ways sort of consistent. You know how lower decks always makes fun of the fact that, you know, this week someone's been taken over by an alien and this week, you know, a godlike entity is attacking us or whatever and our lives are ridiculous. where I can't remember the character was convinced that someone was under the influence and was going through every single trek cliche imaginable to try and expose them. Oh, yeah. It was so funny. No, it was Mariner trying to explain why Boimler had a girlfriend and like she burned through all of these stupid Star Trek premises. And, you know, like Deep Space 9 does do stupid Star Trek premises and absolutely does. But I do like what they attempt here. And so very quickly before we go in, I just want to say this episode, uh, initially was very different. I've been reading the Deep Space of My Companion. And initially, this was a Jake Sisco episode, right? And he was, you know, full-on reporter, Jake Sisco, for Starfleet News or whoever he writes for, and he discovers the plot to bring the Romulans into the war, and essentially, he has to decide whether to print and expose his father or not. That was like the basic premise of the story. And Ron Moore says when they were hashing this out because it's very much a writer's room. It might have Michael Taylor's name on the script, but like the final polish of this was written by Rob Moore, as ever, probably while the dialogue's so good. Um, that they just couldn't find a convincing way to have Jake and Cisco in conflict like this. And they just didn't want to go there, you know? Yeah, that's it. That was what I was just thinking who wants to see that? Like one of the great strengths of the show is the relationship between those 2 men. And I think that there is a moment in this episode as it lands that has conflict between 2 of the regulars that I don't buy at all. You're not talking about the people who get there. Sher and Cisco, are you? Yeah. I fucking love that scene. Oh, okay, yeah. Like, I think it's a good scene, but it just doesn't fit, you know with the established relationship between them. And obviously there's no consequences, which is another interesting choice that this episode makes and a good choice. I like it a lot. Well, and the other good choice they make is instead of Jake, they bring in Garak, and well, that's why this is amazing, you know. Yeah. Well, shall we? Yeah, I think we should. So I'm queued up at the beginning and I am ready to press play. So I'll count us in. Do so. Five, four, three, two, one. And we're off. Now I like, I very much like this framing device, um, because I feel like Cisco is only talking to me. No one else in the audience. Well, I actually think that... There are some shots where like this shot here where he shot from the side, I would actually prefer him to be speaking to the audience because the conceit that he's doing a personal log in order to hash things out isn't really very convincing. Like it's not realistic. It's a storytelling device. And I think that they, they were reluctant to lean into that as much as they should have. I think that having him just tell the audience what happened. I mean, that sets this episode apart because this episode is surprisingly distinctive. Like it's the only Star Trek episode, anything like this. And I think telling this story with that kind of narrative conceit is super interesting. Makes it even more unique. yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well, as well, like, you know, skipping right to the end, you know the, the, the report that he makes doesn't exist, does it? So the only people that are ever privy to this conversation are I was watching the audience. And I really love that. Yeah, I mean, he basically deletes the episode at the end. Also as well. So if this is him telling us or the rapport, a story. Is this a reliable story then, is what we're seeing, what actually happened? Because essentially we're seeing flashbacks. As told by him. Well, I think it is. I don't think Star Trek really does the unreliable narrator and certainly wouldn't make Cisco the unreliable narrator. They did it once delivery. Do you remember there's matter of perspective in TNG, where they had everyone tell us. I don't think they did it very well, but they tried. Yeah. I actually don't mind that episode, I have to say. Grim is this that they all go in and have a look at a list once a week to see who's done. I mean, I get it. Like you would want to know if somebody that you love or a friend of yours has been murdered. But the inference is, is that there is just a wave of murder occurring at the moment. you know, war as hell. Look at Genzier, Genzier is usually so sort of chill and nothing kind of stresses her and she's super hard-faced here and she's super angry about the fact that the Romulans are allowing the Dominion to do this, like to make the Cairo disappear and she claims it's happened 100s of times. I do love this setup. Really, someone should bring the Romulans into the war. Oh, suddenly I have an idea. This is the biggest problem with the Space 9 right now. And it's because they don't trust the audience to keep up, right? So in a minute, there's an info dub where Jazier goes, you know, um uh, they are our allies and why would they get involved? And it's like regurgitating information. that we, as regular viewers of this show, know that someone coming in would need to know it in order for this episode to act. And DS9 is guilty of this a fair amount. And they tend to get away with it, but sometimes it's bit punky. Well, I mean, the way that the way that modern Star Trek avoids that is with the previously on Star Trek, which is not part of the narrative. And I think that that's something we've learned worse. Season seven, you'll notice over half the episodes of season 7 have previously on, so they get a lot. So they've kind of figured it out by then. You know, and in that sort of last 10 episodes, where it's one long narrative. They've got to do it. Otherwise, you know, where the heck, aren't we? you know? Yeah. But that's a good decision rather than having it part of a drama where people are explaining their recent history to each other. So we're doing the opening credits again. How do we feel about them? Do we still feel the same? I'll tell you what, I feel about very strongly, and that's that lovely little man who goes flying through space with the, of sorry. My favourite bit of the title sequence. And I know you said you quite like this. I mean, you know, I'm the biggest this man in the world, but it's a bit dull this time. Yeah, they can't break away from their original premise, which is that this is an outpost in the, you know, far away where nothing very much happens. So you're fling a few more spaceships on there, starting with series 4. And of course, we do need to make the point that Kurtzman track has vastly better title sequences for all of its shows than... I will not disagree. I want to quickly have a moment to talk about Avery Brooks. as an actor. And I think he brings something incredibly distinct to DS9. He's what I call a dangerous actor. Um, because I think he's very accomplished, but sometimes he can tip over into, I could the point of a few moments where I'm just like, 0 no, like, you know, he goes for it. He absolutely goes for it. And usually that means the results are surprising and really engaging. And occasionally it goes over a cliff, you know, and just goes a bit over the top and it's, it's not great. But I always want to watch him. I'm always drawn to him. I've been thinking, and I don't know whether it's true. Like he's super reserved most of the time and particularly early on. Um, and there is a point in this episode where he kind of loses it and he's losing it when he's talking to us when he's talking to camera. And I'm not sure it's convincing psychologically, you know, like I don't think... I'm not talking about the people where he's like, people are dying out there. Yeah, every day. Entire worlds are struggling for their freedom. Him delivering it is so watchable. And I think that sometimes he goes for what's entertaining rather than what psychologically real. Like what the drama needs, you know, it's not sort of Stanislavsky or anything. He's not being a method actor. He's doing what English actors were doing at the time, which is conveying information to the audience through their performance rather than trying to mimic being a real person. And I think it really works. I think he's got a great voice. I, he, he's dangerous. He is passionate. Like, like, the word edgy is bounded around a bit too much, I think, but there are moments where he is a little edgy. I think it's because he's physically imposing, you know. So there's moments where he shoves, like, the bit in this with Toda, where he shoves him against the wall and he's like, you know and I'll send you back to the Klingon empire and tell them to take their time while they execute you. You know, you're like, oh, my God. I would not want you to be my boss, all right? I wonder why he does that. We'll get there, I think. I really quite like the scene that we just talked through, which is Jadzia pretending to be a Romulan, and it is kind of an info dump. Yeah. When he says to her, you'd be a great Romula. Like, yep, yes, she would. Yeah, she's really good. That's amazing. Oh my god, here he is. Andrew Robinson is Garrick. Okay. Now, look, we've talked about MVPs before. Wow, I know. He's one of the MVPs of DS9. There are so many great actors involved in this show. But, um, as an example of the stunning semi-regular cast. I mean, oh, it's just so good. I don't even think this is his best episode and it's a great episode for him. It's, is it a Ronald Moore thing? Like the, this sort of large regular cast. Like you've got, you're stuck with the people in the opening credits, uh, you know, the people who are emotionally cast. No, no, no, no, no. But you have the opportunity then. If you decide, I guess it's what the Simpsons did. You know, they took one, they took characters from like a single episode and just made them regulars because they thought they were or they were funny. And more runs the show. He's not, you know, J. Michael Strazinsky, who has a 14 year plan. Like, he looks at the show as it's happening, decides what works and then goes, let's have more of that. I mean, I mean, I'd say it's more Ira Bear that's kind of in full creative control, but they were they were like a band of brothers and, you know, they they love the show, but they as good as a mere. They improvised. So if things worked, yeah, like Garrick's in one episode, the series one, the 2nd episode passed Prolong, it doesn't appear again until early season two. then he has a couple of appearances towards the ends of two, and then from 3 onwards, That's when he becomes and they're like, this guy is amazing. We can write him really well, like he's enigmatic, he's mysterious he's interesting. Let's keep moving. His camp is funny and, you know, like... He's seen to watch. He's seen to have met such an interesting threat and his hands on his shoulder. Like, it's so great. Oh, no, here's the bad news. Paul Beta Zed. I know. I was wondering why it wasn't Teller, you know, like, oh, something else. I actually think it's kind of hilarious that it's spader's head. Oh, Shay, we couldn't have had this could have been. getting the news, know? Your mother was on the planet as well. She's a victim of the Gemadal. Does she come back after this? Maybe she does. No, she ducks out of DS9 in season 4 and she was quite vocal about how Gene would not have approved of how this show was going. Wow. Okay. Yeah. too interesting. Well, yeah, and her last episode is that dreadful one. Do you remember where Jake Sisko is the muse, the woman stroking his head and taking all the creative out of him? It's a really bad episode so maybe. And one before that was fascination where they had the love virus. So maybe every time Alexana Troy appears on the station. you know the show shit. Shit things happening. Yeah. Okay, so now Garak is going to invent a terrifically sort of Machiavellian plan to bring the Romulans into the war. So, Easy telling the truth here. So he says that he's contacted, like, it's pretty clear at the end. And one of the things that really works in this episode that is kind of impossible to recapture because you know how it goes is that it is actually really, really suspenseful. And the stakes are incredibly high, even though it's all word peril. And what's at stake is the direction that the show goes in? And we know, don't we, at this point, that, um, like events like this will have a massive impact on the show. So we know that if this goes wrong. Yeah, as it looks like it does later, then the shit has hit the fan and things could be really bad going forward. It also looks like it's going to go wrong because of what Cisco says in his opening monologue as well, where he says, you know, I don't know how things went so wrong and how I went so wrong. And watching that again, when we know that the plan actually worked, is really interesting. Because despite what he says at the end of the episode. At the beginning of the episode, he's characterising this as a disaster. And I think that works. You think Garak's face there? I don't know why anyone wouldn't trust that man, honestly. It was perfect. trustworthy. Do you know what? He has a moment in there as well. The thing I love about Garak is no matter how serious he is there's always a moment for a comic line. A bit where he just goes on, unfortunately, they're all dead now. Yes, yeah. I'm dead within one day of speaking to me and I'm like, that is dark. That's really dark. Is he telling the truth? Okay, this is funny. No, well, that's right. There isn't a truth. I mean, it didn't really happen. That's all we have. But it's just possible that we're meant to think that he already knows what he's going to do, doesn't he? He knows. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so he is telling Cisco that Cisco's original plan didn't work. And I kind of want to secretly believe that Garak would just, like he wouldn't burn all of his contacts, you know, call in all of his favours on Cardassia Prime, only to have them all killed. I think he would say, well, I've done that. And it hasn't worked, so we'll just have to lure a guy onto the station so I can plant a bomb on his shuttle. You know? Very subtle approach. to all of this. Do you know what I love as well? I love the fact that the characters on this show are so distinct that it's, we're not there yet, so I'm kind of preempting this, but the bit where there's the recording of the supposed invasion of Cardassia is like, all we had to do was add some neutral loathing between the characters. And we're like, but we're like in our heads. Yeah, we've seen these characters as absolutely how you would sell that scene, you know? Yeah. Yeah, so this is the pretend plan. And it's hilarious that the pretend plan is we just make a fake deleted scene from a Deep Space 9 episode and give it to the guy and it'll be on this. You know, it'll be on a magical rod thing that will convince everyone that it's real. And Cisco kind of goes, oh, you know, well, that's very deceptive but, you know, we might have to go along with that and Starfleet goes along with it. I don't like that, though. That's the one creative choice that I do not like in this episode is that he says, oh, well, Starfleet approved of this, so I'm off the hook. So at that point, I'm like, well, what stakes are in this for you then? If this has been a fruit. Like if this was just you doing this plan and then maybe you had to tell Starfleet then. Okay, I've done this. This is what I've done. Yeah. But Garrett presents Cisco with a plan that is bad, you know, it's telling lies to someone to get them to come into the war. And if they were found out, it would be absolutely disastrous. But it's a plan that Cisco will accept while still feeling bad about it, but one that Starfleet will reluctantly approve of, given the kind of state of the war. But it was never his real plan. That's not his plan. Do you know what as well, though? I think Garak really enjoys, you know, raking Cisco through the mud. I think he gets a perverse pleasure out of making him do things that, you know, is really uncomfortable with. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. And we get it played on the same, well, on a smaller scale with Quark a little bit later on. I think it's a great scene. So one of the problems, I think, with this episode, though, is that this blue guy is so loathsome. Like, he's a funny, great Fontola. Oh, for God's sake, Greython space name. And he's he's so loathsome. And Renak, Senator of Renak, is horrible. such a prick. Do you know what? They're both memorable, though. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I like this where he's like, oh, one or 2 are Ryan's slave girl. some porn. I'm going to do a porn thing for you. I'd say, you know, how dare you cast aspersions on Cisco and I suggest you want some sex, you know, porn holiday. But then think about Janeway in Fairhaven, you know? That's it. That's where she fucks the holiday. It's not out of the realms of possibility, you know. Do you know what's the best line with Tola? is when Garrett goes. I'll be along later to say hello. Yes. But is that I'll be along later. No, do you know what my favourite line is? is where Garak says, I've left him with the impression that if he goes through the door, it will explode and Cisco says, I hope you're bluffing and he kind of fobs it off. So I think the door really is rigged to explode. And given that... Like Garak just wouldn't work on Voyager or TNG, would it? He was perfect for this show. Okay, this is terrific. I like it when he goes, cork in an un, what is it, uncharacteristic act of chivalry. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, he was tearing her expensive clothes, I think, probably. And that's the other thing too. Like, Tollah is so shit because, you know, he can do a holiday program and stuff, but he's here undercover, but he still gets pissed, starts a bar fight, you know, stabs someone. Like he's an idiot. I do like this scene now where Quark is fricking loving the fact that Cisco is swirming at having to silence him. Yeah, yeah. And it's very honest to Odo as well, because he says, you know, as a matter of law, I will make a statement. I understand that there's a security operation going on, but, you know, I'm a man of integrity. We just have to do it. Yeah, yeah, if he gets arrested, you know, if Quark presses charges, I have to arrest him. What's he going to do? It's honest to all the characters, isn't it? It's like, and I think I said to you before, like the characters are so distinct on this show now. Like some of these episodes are practically self-perpetuating. Like they almost frighten themselves. You have a great, a terrific premise, like we're going to bring the robiners into the war. And then just automatically interesting things happen with those characters, you know, like, like naturally, interesting things happen with these characters with a premise like that because they are so strong. Well, what are we now? We're halfway through season six. Yeah. Yeah, so this scene is exactly that because we know what Cisco's like, we know what Quark is like. Quark, maybe more than any other character, behaves like Quark in every scene. You know, I described them when we did our 1st Deep Space 9 episode. I said that he was like a sitcom character in that, you know how he's going to react in a particular situation. And he's not a character who grows. Plenty of the others changed throughout the time. They make a joke of that in in the dogs of war, and that he goes you know, well, you might make Ron the Grandmakers, but this will be the last outpost of the Ferengi, uh, I recognise, you know, I will not change. Come PC. So, so here we get this incredibly great scene and what's great about it is Avery's acting as well. He doesn't overdo it. So uncomfortable, isn't he? Fitching in his chair, like, oh, I do not want to be here doing this, protecting that fucking arsehole that's stabbed Impella. And and also he doesn't want quiet to have it over him as well. He's uncomfortable because Quark is winning in this scene and that doesn't normally happen. You know, normally, uh, he would shut down the request about the cargo stuff that's stuck in the cargo bay. My favourite line, though, is I think we can call that a brine instead of a deal. I think it's... pushes it home at the end. It's like every man has his price. and it does his eyebrow thing. Oh, here she'll see where he's emoting to the camera now. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And like he's overreacting to what he's had to do. It's been pretty small stakes, hasn't it? He hasn't really done. It is in terms... He persuades Quark not to... In terms of how our Starfleet captain behaves in the Rottenberry universe. It is kind of a big deal. And I think that's why this episode is a big deal, is because it is pushing against what we've come to expect. Yeah. But remember in the pilot, he does a deal with Quark to get him to stay by arresting what, nog or something. And like he does this sort of dodgy deal because it's not the federation anymore and he has to kind of moderate the way he behaves in this new context. So at this point, he hasn't done anything very bad. We talk a bit about 90s trek music. Okay, I really love the music in this episode. I think it's foreboding and quite some, but there's a bit there where he's like, and so I pressed on and every time, you know, a new doubt appeared in my head. I shoved it aside with rationalisation and the music underscoring that. It's really dark. It's David Bell, who was brought in halfway through series 5 and they use him a lot because they realised, 0 my God, there's someone doing something a bit different, you know, from Dennis McCarthy and Jay Chataway and, you know. Yeah, yeah. Look, it's still barely noticeable. Under said word. I like this as well. This is a collect, um, this reminds me of those X-File scenes down in the car park where it's like all these tight close-ups, these clandestine meetings in like, Again, it's not very Star Trek, is it? You know? No, I mean, they're what they're in the turbo lift. Heading to Ops. I do like the ops thing. Does Garak ever appear in ops? A couple of times. He appears in obviously that one where the Cardassian security device goes off and, you know, the... Oh, yeah, yeah. blown away over the place. So much fun. The bit where he casually says here. I know he's using it for. I'm assuming it's something to do with genetic manipulation. I'm like, 0 my god, that is dark. Yeah, yeah. And and I guess the biomedic gel thing is so that we can have that scene with Julian. Oh, I guess also, it's a prohibited substance, isn't it? He could give him Latinum. That'd be fine. I don't think that's a lot, but we have heard of biometic gel before and that it is kind of outlawed and yeah. Yeah. Oh God, I just, you know what, Andrew Robinson just relishes every line. Look at his face. In fact, they're quite different as actors, which works really well because they're supposed to be mismatched, whereas Avery is very restrained. Do you know what I like about this scene between Bashir and Cisco? And that is, Avery Brooks is a very imposing man and, um, Sidi, Sid is quite slight. And yet there's a couple of scenes. There's another one in honour of mother's feet where he confronts Cisco and he's not intimidated by him at all. I think it takes quite an actor, you know, to go up against Avery Brooks. Yeah, I love the way he delivers the line about wanting it in writing. I think that's really particularly good, but I don't buy this at all because, you know, they'll be mates next week or whatever. They'll have a friendly relationship and this will never go anywhere. And maybe it is a relic of the Jake Cisco premise that they originally had. This is the conflict between the 2 characters. I'm not sure it really properly lands. How have we gotten this far into DSI? This is our 3rd episode of DS9 that we've done now? and we've not seen Jeffrey Coombes as Wayoon yet? Yeah. Oh okay. Isn't he wonderful? So good. He's so great. I think Casey Briggs is kind of underrated as well. I think he's really properly good. I don't think anyone expects it, not even Casey Biggs, who is Roxanne Dawson's ex-husband. by the way. Oh my god, yes, Big's Dawson. That's right I don't think anyone ever suspected that DeMar would have such a massive role. in season 7 after. Like, he's such a villain when he starts off. Remember the bit where Kira kicks a shit out of him in the cargo babe? He lays his hands on his out. I don't think anyone saw that coming. But Jeffrey Coombes, like Andrew Robinson, like Renee Obichonoir as well. I think they can take any line and make it sing. No matter how functional the line is, you know? Yeah, yeah. They do something with it. Yeah. And I think that's a that's a huge strength of DS9 is that you've got a cast of actors and primarily actors that have learnt their trade in the theatre and I think you can tell that there are big performances, you know, there's a fair bit of projection. There's a lot of character involved. You know, you skip over to Enterprise and it's a lot of made for TV actors and you can tell. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, this is virtually a play. It's got the artifice, isn't it? This is absolutely a bottle show. It really is. So you've got these guests. You've got basically, um, what, 2 main guest characters and then you've got, And then you've got the Dominion people in this incredibly fake, um, simulation in a tiny corner of the studio, um which is where we apparently have all of our meetings all sitting around the same side of the table. I know you're probably going to find me on this because I know you like the like astonishing production value of Kursman Trek and the you know, the fact that they can tell everything on a large canvas with amazing set pieces and blah, blah, blah. But really, ultimately, yeah, you do just need a really good script and some good actors and you can make fantastic television. Duet is a bottle show. And duet is phenomenally good. This is a bottle show and this is really good. You know, if the writing is good enough and the acting is good enough. You've got a great telly. Yeah, I mean, I think it is a little bit of a shame because Star Trek has the potential to put something really visually interesting on screen. And basically we're hearing all the standing sets and there's one optical shot in the entire show. Or, you know, like all one effects shot. And I did, I was actually surprised by that. And I do think this is good. I wasn't bored, but it is visually not that interesting. Again, I agree and disagree. I don't think we need to tell this on a bigger canvas than it is. I think they like this extremely well. There's scenes where the lighting is very moody and, you know, it's visually dull because basically the sets are pretty dull. Well, no, actually, I think they're quite interesting actually but... No, no. I think they are more interesting than a Starfleet ship is, you know, they're more interestingly lit. There's different shapes and all of that. You skip forward to Latter-day Voyager, and they were insisting in every single episode there was like, you know, a dynamic action sequence, whether it was needed or not. And so, you know, it's literally making it look pretty for no other reason to make it look pretty. It didn't add anything to the plot. There was no creative reason for it to be there. Yeah. Whereas I was completely invested in this in the story where it was going in the characters. I personally don't need more than that. No. And what we get on either side of it are the giant sort of war things and space battles and stuff that this depends on. And so what it is. You've got this sort of giant political thing that is going to change the way the major powers in the galaxy relate to one another, but it's all happening, essentially it's all happening in this tiny room where Cisco is narrating what happened and we have flashbacks. I mean, essentially the episode takes place in his quarters. one man play, isn't it? Yeah. It's a monologue. Well, I think they could have lent into that more and a, you know Star Trek in this era is not very experimental in the way that it tells stories or the way it presents reality and it would have been nice to see them lean into it. I think they go as far as they dare to. Um, but I do think it's a bit of a shame. So, here's the effect shot. His effect shot. Romulan, modern shot coming through. Yep. But again, we can't hear the music here, but again, the music I thought was really quite strong here. Right. Now Cisco is going to have to go and speak an incredible amount of bullshit convincingly. Yeah, yeah. I love it. So that's Andrew Robertson reacting to the fact that the pad thing comes down with nothing on it. And then Cisco looks at him, but he does a sort of big bug eyes thing to go, wait, what? You know, because he's kind of forgotten that they're cloaked or whatever. There's a line here in a minute, right? Sorry to interrupt with you. which I use in life all the time where Robin says to Cisco, what is it? My opinion of Starfleet officers is so low, you'd have to work extremely hard indeed to disappoint me. Well, take out the Starfleet officer bit, but I've used that line so many times with my friends, you know. I think he's great. And he's a that guy, isn't he? He's like, I think he's Canadian or something, but he's definitely a that guy. He's a super familiar face. Yeah, but I like he really sort of underplays it, doesn't he? Well, until he gets the moment. Yeah, yeah, yeah, the great moment. You couldn't have underplayed that, but I think he's really good. And this line, so he's enumerating all of the things that Cisco has done after meeting him for the 1st time. And then he's going to do what is a very standard, very cliche joke, which is I thought you'd be taller, but in this context with a Romulan senator doing that joke, I think I think that's actually pretty funny and I did guffaw watching it. in preparation for this. It was a bit unexpected. There's a little bit more colloquial than Star Trek normally gets in this era. I like it when he's drinking the Romulan ale and he's like, I was almost convincing him for a second, you know. The real stuff forcibly opens to synapses. Don't, don't you think, though, that that's slightly ominous, that he presents, um, Cisco presents him with Romulan ale that is fake? and he's... It's great, isn't it? So we know immediately he's great at spocket spotting a fake, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm desperate to get to that line. to do it when it comes. There are so many memes of that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's really crap. Oh dear. So, so right now, Garak, what, is in the ship planting the bomb? I think so. And one of them, there were some handsome Romulan bodyguards, or at least one of them was handsome, and there are 3 or 4 of them and presumably they all get all blowed up on the ship, and Cisco doesn't seem to have any pangs of conscience about them. It's like a Romulan senator, a criminal and, you know, the self respect of a Starfleet officer. But what about what about those guys? Actually, do you know, I want to talk to you about the dialogue because we've talked a lot about kind of how naturalistic Kursman era trek dialogue is and how stylised 90s trek dialogue is. And you know my sort of preferences more towards 90s than the modern day stuff. And I remember your argument was like, you know, this is made now. So people should sound like, you know, contemporary. And I do kind of get that. But I think the dialogue in this episode is exceptionally good on the whole. And when that stylizer and they do it run more scripted episodes are especially good, I think. When they get it right, it's really intelligent, really sophisticated dialogue and imminently quotable, I think. Think of them both as tragic victims of war. I mean, yeah. Well, it's, I mean, again, it's sort of, it's like sitcom dialogue. It's quotable, it's funny, it's clever. And I think that Star Trek always does that. It never becomes... Well, I mean, Battlestar Galactica has a ghost woman in a red frock. I mean, it's not that gun. is it? It's still sort of camp too. Um, Yeah. Yeah. What are they talking about? I've lost track a little bit. So, this is Cisco standing up and telling the lie. Oh yeah, here we go. Yeah, and then we just get, we go out of that scene so quickly where all that we get is reenact saying, I want proof, then we can't tour, like is it, a commercial break or at least exterior model shot of the, of the station. Now we're here watching this shitty DS9 deletency. There's so many things like this in season seven. Although I take out the word shitty because I just love anything between Wayne and Damar when they're bitching at each other. It's amazing. A little bit where he goes. what is it? My, my predecessor Wayoon's deaf in a transporter accident and he looks at DeMar. It's great. I love how they get Jeffrey Coombs in. They kill him off, and then they decide, shit, that was a bad idea. I know they'll be clones and then they just lean into it. They make that part of the thing. I think that's genius. And you know, the payoff of all of that, Wayne and DeMar, when DeMar defects, and he takes out the cloning ship, the cloning percent, and he goes, I could be the last way you. That's why he chose that target. It's great. It's so great. Oh, dear. Oh, okay. And then we're going to cut to Cisco talking about soufflés rising and not because it's done now and and, you know, I think I think we've all had moments like this, haven't we? Where we've had to do something tough. Yeah, well, that's done now. This is either going to work or it's not going to work, always see the outcome. We haven't exactly had, you know, the deaths of 1000000s of people on our shoulders, you know, determined by the outcome. Not recently. Oh, really? Tell me about the past. But I think this, I think this speech is a little bit over-gged. Ha, souffle. Because, you know, he, he, he quotes his father a couple of times um, I don't know. I think this this is kind of eating up runtime. You know, we could have seen him do it. Well, maybe we couldn't have. Maybe we need him to narrate. Well, he's just sort of reiterated the stakes, isn't he? before we get the outcome. Yeah Have you ever done, have you ever had that moment, no, where you're walking towards the door of hearing a decision that's going to be made for your future? Like he does in a minute. Yeah. All our movies like that. And it is that thing where he's sitting there and not, he doesn't know what to do. And I think that this is a really shocking moment in the episode. Oh, wow. Well, I know. He's he's drinking as he's telling the story. He's reiterating the stakes. But I noticed his clothes are all coming off as well. Ah, yeah. Wow. I'm in favour of that. Does, but do you think we're meant to be surprised when free? Yeah, absolutely. I think we are. But it's absolutely signposted. Like, it's supposed to end neatly, like most Star Trek episodes do but with Cisco going, well, I had to do those terrible things. So, you know, it wasn't it wasn't all tidy. Oh here we go. Here we go. Here we go. Can we both do it, please? It's... Ah, great. He's so good. How else could you have delivered it? Particularly contrasting it with the incredible calm in control thing? you know, that he did, the interaction with Cisco before where he was absolutely on top? He had the upper hand. He didn't need to exercise himself at all. And then suddenly having him kind of yell out of control. And, like, this is the one thing, like, he doesn't phone ahead to the Romulan Senate and say, actually, I'm bringing you the fate of the Federation scent. Maybe not. I mean, that is very sensitive information. You remember when Picard used to get like code red. You need to put in a special code before I'll talk to you. Maybe, well, they could have done that. Yeah, he could have thrung it. A funny plot house, Nathan, honestly. Good grief. I think plot holes are bullshit. you know what I mean? I don't like. 2 days later? He goes, 2 days later, I've got the news. I'm like, yeah, yeah, he didn't tell anyone in 2 days. No. Well, he was travelling here. Was he on the way from or to Sakala or Sakara or whatever the name of the planet is and blah, blah, blah. No, on the way back. You on the way back. Remember at the beginning of the episode and they had the list of the names, they'd reiterate it here now. They're just like, oh, there's a lot of people dead, but there's really only one person that we know. Yeah, that's a good guy. Yeah, where things are looking up. That's how dark things have got. But I think as well, I think the list of names and the victims and the people that are dying in this war, that's also being highlighted because if Cisco succeeds, that is what's going to happen to the Romulans as well. They are going to start losing a lot. Yeah, not joining in that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So there are stakes. If he wins, there are actually some fairly dark stakes because he's essentially consigning a ton of Romulans to be murdered and we watch that throughout the rest of the series. Rob Miller's ship's being blown up left right in the sense. Yeah. Yeah, but, I mean, what they do say in that opening scene where Gen Z is pretending to be a Romulan, is that, in fact, the Dominion will, you know, we know the Dominion that is going to turn on them as well, that this is just tempriso. This is one of my favourite. Why does he punch him? Why does he punch him? Because he's tough and he's hard and it turns me on. That's why. So I think... I love it. Go on. So he knows immediately. He knows immediately that that's what's happened. And, but you hear his voice. He goes, yeah, excuse me. But it's also that Garak put him through that shit, you know, like thinking that he's spent 2 days thinking that they've fucked it up and that the Romulans are going to join the Cardette join the Dominion. He could have said, well, he... He's added sweating his bollocks off for the last 2 days. Yeah, yeah, but what would have happened? Cisco would have made him stop. Cisco would have warned him. Yeah, maybe. You know, that's the point. Cisco would have worn him because Cisco would never, ever have signed up to this. And the thing that goes wrong is, once he knows that Garak's murdered these people. Is it Garrett's body language there? Yeah. It's like a spider with his hands up. Like he's... creepiest. It is a bit of a shitty line though, isn't it? Like a dead senator in the other hand. So they've got a whole senator in their hand. I do love it, though. Like, I do like how, like, I like it when a plot, like a jigsaw comes together, quite needy. And this does it all through the dialogue and you're like, okay. So this is what's happening. is in this episode. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's smart, you know, it's it's satisfying. There we go. And this is the thing too. Like, he... How is Cisco complicit? Was Cisco fooling himself that Garak would come up with a plan that was so easy because Garak warned Cisco that it's going to be a very messy, very bloody business. And then, the business ends up being, we made this home movie and we're going to give it to the Romulans. And so it ends up being a bit shit. San Francisco was perhaps a little naive. No, I'm saying that he must have known that Garak was going to do this. And so he comes in and attacks Garak because he's angry at himself because he knows that he involved Garak in this knowing that this is the sort of thing Garak does. And we know that he knows this is the sort of thing that Garak does because he immediately comes to the conclusion that the ship is blown up because Garak's blown it up. It's not the Dominion at all. And I think that's I think that's really good. Do you reckon he spent 2 days just waiting then for like, okay what, what? No, no, no. I think he spent 2 days shitting himself. And then when he hears the news, he goes, yes, of course, I must have known that he would do this. And so he comes in and punches Garak because he is angry at himself. Yeah. And it's not like he hasn't seen what Garak is capable of. No, broken link. Garak's there trying to access the torpedoes to blast the hell out of the the changeling planet. You know, he's willing to commit genocide. Like, it's not like, you know, it's a great secret that Garak's capable of doing terrible things. Yeah. I really like this too. And this final scene where he says that he can live with it and absolutely doesn't convince us. He can't live with it because he says it twice and then he crosses his leg and looks really uncomfortable and it is... It's very theatrical, isn't it? Like, it's very kind of... I think that's why I like it, you know? Me too. Yeah. Yeah, look at that. Cushion, he's got. Yeah, it's pretty... The only bit of colour in a cushion like that. There he is deleting the episode. And we go out immediately after he finishes that line. I think it's so good Um, I want to, um, very quickly, uh, just make a comparison because you and I watched Strange New Wells from Enterprise Series one. I came after this. Okay? That was that was from us after this. And we struggled to find anything relevant or substantial to talk about. Now that episode we just watched. No, we didn't agree, we didn't like everything. We both agreed it was really, really good. But there's so much to talk about. There is so much substance in this show at this point with the characters and with the running storyline. And that's what I think DS9 brought to Star Trek. Just, just, I kind of like a weight of detail and substance and interesting ideas, you know? So what I like about this episode, particularly, is that it's invisible to everyone else. The only people who know what happened are Garak and Cisco. And the war changes. This is now a war they can win. And all of that happens in this episode that just takes place with just people talking in rooms on this far off station and no one ever finds out. And I think that's really interesting. But I think that the problem is, and it's worth paying the price, I think. The problem is that we never see the effect that this has on Cisco as a person, the fact that he's crossed this line because this episode takes place in this tiny little kind of bubble narrative uh, there are never any consequences for him. It's surprised you for me to say that I both agree with you and disagree with you. I agree with you insofar as within this episode itself and like the following episodes, yeah, you don't, there are no real consequences. And that the sort of having a closed episode like this where he deletes it at the end. That's the point, I think. Yeah, yeah, I agree. This season, and I'm including in the Palm Moon Knight as part of the jigsaw this season, has a profound effect on his character. And at the end of the season, he heads back to Earth, he resigns from his position. He's lost Jazia. He's made lots of tough choices and he's on earth scrubbing potatoes in his dad's back alley and he's like, I've just had enough of this now, you know? This episode is one of the things that he's escaping from. like a contributory factor. Yeah. Yeah. Very, very quickly before we choose the next episode. The next episode after this, yeah, is his way. So that's the episode where Odo and Kira get together. It's a romantic musical comedy set in Vic Fontaine's 50s lounge bar. Is it the 1st Vic Fontaine story? The very 1st one, right? And I'd say it's as accomplished as in the Pale Moonlight, but as an example of how diverse DS9 could be, to put this episode and that episode back to back. Yeah, that's confident, isn't it? That's very confident to switch genres like that. Yeah. Yeah. There's just one more thing that I want to say, right? Hit me. That one of the things about the Deep Space 9 war arc is that it repeatedly makes the point that all of your egalitarian peaceful socialist ideas are good in theory, but you really need to abandon them in order to actually survive. And that's what happens here. That's what's behind section 31. You know, the idea that Section 31 exists outside of the Federation. Spreading its claws into Kurtzman Trek. Well, and yeah. But that's I mean, America is a bit like that. America thinks of itself as a peace loving and committed to justice and all sorts of things and we know what America and other Western countries do to the rest of the world. And so there's a sort of realism to that. And if the Federation is America and often it is, I think, then maybe that stuff's worth investigating. But I have to say that Discovery Series one poses the same question. It does. It says the only way that we can properly make this war worth winning is by sticking to our ideals. What's the point of winning? What's the point of mere survival? Like if we betray our ideals. And the idea is that they're going to blow up the Klingon homeworld and it's Giorgio's idea because she's from the mirror Trump universe and they reject that idea and and it comes out well. And this is a made up show, so they could have done that. They weren't committed to making that point. And I have to say that I like the way that Discovery Series one does that more than I like, the sort of grim conclusion that we just have to be evil in order to survive this war. I think probably the discovery, that's the more likeable approach to this, and it's the like, you know, what we should aspire to. Yeah, I reckon, like, if we look at history as a whole, which is the more realistic and probably the more compelling because is kind of throwing shades on how people pay. Then there's great line in the dogs of war, just as DS9 went out where Odo says to Cisco, when he realises that it was the Federation that poisoned the founders and tried to commit genocide. And he says, it's fascinating, isn't it? Like, you're willing to portray this fabulous utopia. But when the dirty work needs doing, you'll look the other way such a great life, I love that life. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think that that's good. I mean, that's a thing that this show exists to do is to interrogate the federation and therefore perhaps America. And it's a perfectly legitimate approach. It a good thing that you can do with the federation. It's worth doing. Maybe it's a personal preference as much. Well, that's absolutely necessary. Although interesting. I think this is the episode that was pointed at as criticising or exploring the alternative to the Rodenberry ideal. I don't think this is the episode that does that. I think non-fan favourite valiant later in the season, which literally has. idealised Roddenberry-esque cadets in charge of a ship going like, we can do anything. We're red squad. Yeah, you know, and they're absolutely, you know, TNG episode season one, characters, like, they're going to go out and civilise the universe, and then they're all murdered horribly at the end because they overstretched themselves, and actually they come up against a force that is more powerful than them. And it's horrible and it's, I'm not sure if I like what it has to say. But as a way of confronting that ideal, it's absolutely gripping. All right, I am open at untitled Star Trek project.com slash randomiser, and we are going to pick our next episode and I have control of the button. I am powerless and riveted to find out how you are going to play this this time. Okay, I'm leaving it completely open because we... Yeah, yeah. Well, I'm being daring. I'm going to turn the films off, even though the chance of a film is pretty slim. Oh, man, I've given how few there are. We should do a film sometime soon. No, because we'll end up with bloody generations or insurrection. Bloody, the motion picture. Oh, no, we have to do the motion picture. It's awesome. The motionless picture. The motionless picture. I am going to leave Star Trek the animated series in because again I think the chances of us rolling one are fairly slim. And this does bias things in the favour of 90s strike because most Star Trek at this point, isn't it? He's straight. So let's see how we go. Pressing the button. Oh Jesus. Oh no, what is it? Is it really terrible? It's a 1st season Star Trek, the next generation episode. yes It's the last outpost. Oh awful. Oh, almost so boring. Yeah, I'm tempted too. Riker shouts into a, oh my god, it's the 1st Ferengi episode. I've been doing that kind of... It's someone else in it is... I think is... No, match project's not in that one. I can't remember now. Oh, he's in the battle or something, isn't he? So awful. It so boring. Okay. boring. Do you want do a different one? Yep. All right. Oh, do we want to do another Deep Space 9 so soon? This is dramatis persona? That's awful as well. Roll again. Oh, okay. Is that series one? That's series one. I do remember. It's the one where Kira's coming onto Dax all the time to try and get her to go evil with her. It's very weird. I think it's like a retread of power play, isn't it? Not as good, though. That has marina service going, everyone, get down on the floor. That's great. Oh, dear. Okay, all right. Now, we have a rule, which is if it's a two-parter, we have to do 2 parts. But if it's part of a larger arc, we don't have to do the whole arc so that we don't have a 10 episode. Like you're preparing, you know. Come on. It's season two, episode two, the circle. Oh, dear, it's not again. I don't think we should do DS9 again, you know. Okay, I'm switching it off. All right. That hope is you part two. How was that? The season finale of Discovery season three. So the 1st episode of Discovery season 3 is called That Hope Is You part one, episode one. very sneaky. And then episode 13 is called that Hope is You part two. So we wouldn't have to do part one and part two. We would just do part two. I've not seen the last half. Serious free of discovery. So I would be quite intrigued to watch that episode. Okay. All right. That will be interesting. What's occurring in the end of series 3 of Discovery? They discover the source of the burn. Oh, the thing that set off all the dilithium. Yeah, yeah, they'd kind of destroy the Federation and made everyone kind of isolated and mistrustful of one another. Is it a satisfying explanation? It's a strange explanation. And has that been revealed before the finale? No, this isn't part two, but as usual, the end of a discovery series is quite highly serialised. So we will have to kind of fill people in on where we are at this point. But I think it's worth a try. You're gonna have to fill me in. I've not seen this lot Ralph. I might watch all the ones I haven't seen. I stopped at the Mirror Universe episodes. far from the end? don't think so. Okay, I watched a lot then. Oh, Discovery again. and series three. Again. Brilliant. You've been listening to entitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford and Nathan Bottomley. You can find us online at Untitled Star Trek project.com, where you can find links to our Twitter, Facebook, and YouTube channel. Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceran, and the theme was composed by Cameron Lamb. This episode was recorded on the 7th of February 2022 and released on the 18th of February. We'll see you next time for Star Trek Discovery that Hope is You part two.