Far Beyond the Stars

Hey, Joe. Hi. So this is really a big one, isn't it? Like, this is an absolute top tier episode of Star Trek that kind of goes off format almost completely, and almost aggressively refuses to explain why and ends up being our weekly dose of science fiction, not so much because it's science fiction in itself, but because in a way, it's about science fiction. So this is obviously far beyond the stars, directed by Avery Brooks himself and written by Hans Spinler and Ira Stephen Baer. Um, I think this is maybe the best episode of the run. It certainly has good claim to be. Top 3 easily. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. But like, I mean, whenever I look at my top 5 DS9s, there's always one sort of completely break the rules and don't do your standard DS9 trials and tribulations, you know, duet, tink like that to the holiday. Well, that's you, not me. Jesus Christ. Okay. Although, to be fair, they'll take me out to the hollow suite and this are both the show letting their hair down a bit as well, which is great. You use the word aggressive there. This has got some very aggressive things to say about some meaty subjects. And as Armand Shimman says a lot, and I've got some quotes later it's doing what Star Trek at its best does, and that is holding up a mirror to humanity now, and possibly, hopefully, giving us a lesson or 2 or certainly making us think about how we behave. Yeah, it's, I mean, the thing about it too, like, I actually think you know, there's something great about that Star Trek approach to take, uh, to take a social issue and then do an allegory of it, you know, something like critical care or workforce in Voyager, say. And here, the simple refusal to do that, to just do it by setting a drama in sort of 1953 or whenever, and getting us to see a character who isn't normally subject to those kinds of pressures because he's in a sort of utopian future, where all that stuff is passed. And the show does say that, doesn't it? We did watch better being better bang, where Cassidy speaks to Ben and says, you know, the sword of discrimination and racism that we face, that people like us face in the 1960s isn't a thing now. And so we take a character who has been free from that. But, But whose conception isn't free from that. This is, you know, one of a very small number of shows at the time that ever had a black lead on American network TV. Like that's extremely rare. There was resistance to that. Yeah? Like from the viewership and within the production of the show there was some resistance for that. And they just went with it anyway. And am I wrong to say that he is raining it in a bit early on, that he's he's muted and he's nowhere near as, um, like he becomes more himself as the show's run goes on. And there are more references to his African heritage and things in the way, way that he dresses and the way that he decorates his quarters and stuff like that, that Avery gets more and more input into kind of showing what what it means to be black, that he's generally a black man written by white people, right? But Avery really starts emerging in season three, I think. And then when season 4 starts, Ara Bear literally says, let him cut his hair off. For God's sakes, let him cut his hair off. He's not comfortable. He's clearly not comfortable on the screen. Let him be a black man for God's sakes and he bursts out of Way of the Warrior. And for the rest of the run man, he's on fire. By the time we get to this point in series 6, at a point where he's directing himself in an episode he's passionately involved in because of the subject matter, I mean, he just blows my socks off in this. Because, you know, the one thing that really strikes me, it's a few conversations that Ben has with with a Jimmy character who's played by Siri Lofton, who is scornful about science fiction because it's stories of white people on the moon, that are written for white people, and Renee Overjoir's character is aware that the audience for Incredible Tales, the people who are buying the magazine, that Benny Russell works for white people overw Whelmingly. and right wing white people as well. People who won't want to see a black main character. You know, that that's, that black writers are for liberals and intellectual. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But with a comment as well, that DC Fontana, sorry, Casey Hunter is not allowed to have her photograph in the magazine either, and she has to use initials. There's a long way to go in a lot of respects. And I also think Arman Shimmerman too. Like, is Arman Shimmerman playing a Jewish character in this? His name's Herbert Rossoff. And and Obershoir's character who is really interesting and God Renee is so great. He's so great in this. He gets called a communist. You know, like he calls Herbert Rosoff a communist at some point in what is a pretty great line. You know, he's never been happy since Joseph Stalin died, which is pretty great. Yeah, so all of those people like it, there are hints at other pressures people are experiencing at the time, but it refuses to decenter the black characters and we see a variety of black characters who are experiencing those pressures in different ways. Do you know what I mean? Like, it's not just the black character, let's see, where he reacts. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Michael Dawn's play. Michael says he's allowed to play. you know. Oh, my God. It's so charming. He's wonderful, isn't he? so hot and so charming. It's wonderful. He's such a big man He's stunning. I just pointed out too, Mark, as I was watching this. That's Wolf. He went, really? He's gorgeous, isn't he? Yeah, yeah. Oh my god. I mean, you've made a good point there about Renee. Like the biggest key to this story's success or one of them at least, is it's this cast playing these roles. Yeah. And they're all great character actors, including the extended cast, because you've got Marco Lamo in there, J.G. Hertzler, you know, everybody Barr, Casey Biggs, but he's going to do his turn next year. So don't worry. Yeah, yeah, which we already seen. I think he has some work at the theatre or something you couldn't get away from. Yeah okay. Boy, I bought that and they're loving playing these roles. aren't they? And they're given sort of fast snappy fun dialogue to play wonderful interactions. They get to the heart of who those people are immediately and their personalities just beam out. On acting alone. I think this is one of the best Star Trek episodes. And then, you know, my perennial obsession, this is shot like in in the Paramount lot, is it? Or it's shot... Oh, shot outside, just tons of extras, so many extras. It's like an expensive episode, a normal episode of an expensive TV show. This must have cost a lot of money, even though it's not sort of space nonsense that we're spending the money on. And it just looks great. It looks real in a way that Star Trek never, ever does in this era. There's a wonderful bit. Because if we go to the Paramount Battle a lot during 90s train you know, this is the same place where we filmed non-sequitur in Voyager, and it's the same place where we filmed past tense, a few seasons back in DS9, you know, and count as other stories. There's one sequence at night as well, which I love where they're coming out of like the jazz bar and it's all lit up and it's just so beautifully done. And like you said, there's people hanging out of buildings and things. It just, yeah, the money's on the side. everywhere. All these cars, like it's really great. It's properly good. I have got a list of quotes to get through. So I'll say some now and I'll say some during the episode and just see what you think about some of this. So Avery Brooks comments. If we change the people's clothes, if this story could be about right now, what's insidious about racism is that it's unconscious. Even among these very bright and enlightened characters, a group that includes a woman writer who has to use a man name to get her work published, and who is married to a brown man with a British accent in 1953. It's perfectly reasonable to coexist with someone like Papst. It's in the culture. It's the way people think. So that was the approach I took. I never talked about racism. I just showed how these intelligent people think and it all came out of them. Yeah, yeah. really good, isn't it? That's how that's sort of Avery Brooks is thinking doing this and just a word for the direction. It's just so stylish. I mean, he makes that wonderful call of just using stock footage of New York and then cut it into the scenes, you know. beautiful. Um, there's some, I did this on these on the voyages recently. Well, surprise, surprise. The cast opinions on this episode are sort of diametrically opposed to the cast opinions on these are the voyages. Renee says a brilliant episode, one of the best of the whole series, Avery did a fabulous job directing it. Michael Dawn says it was wonderfully shot. Penny Johnson who's always got loads of great things to say. She's brilliant, isn't she? This was beautifully handled, beautifully short. But it's still in the heart it got me. JG Hertz, no. I thought far beyond the stars was one that you could have built an entire series from of Brooks's performance in the episode. Jeffrey Coombes commented. Avery was spectacular. There was a scene towards the end where he falls apart with a camera right in front of his nose. It was just riveting to watch. Armond Shimmerman has the most to say about this. Far beyond the stars is without a question, my favourite episode. It's perfect science fiction. Obviously, this is not a quark episode, but the reason I like that one so much is that it's perfect science fiction, I think it really stretches the imagination of the viewer and breaks down the 4th wall to talk about the real heroes of any TV shows, which are the writers. I loved what our writers did with it. It was one of the most creative TV episodes I've ever seen or been in. I do tend to watch it again whenever it's on because it was just a terrific episode. I really do like actually the that that whole angle on the episode. We talked about it before, haven't we? We talked about Jake in the Muse. Do you remember? Yeah. So that is a bit of a feature of Deep Space Time. And here, so when they appreciate it enough, you know. That's right. So Betty Russell isn't a sort of civil rights activist or anything like that, he's a writer doing his job, but existing as a black man in that environment as well. And obviously, this is a show that valorizes writing. And so we have this sort of hero who is enjoined by Brock Peters who also is in this episode, Brock Peters plays a preacher who's kind of leaking in from the 24th century because he talks about the province a lot, but encouraging Benny to write the story. And I think it's pretty incredible. You know, like he's pretty great too. There's one more comment before we go into this. about A redirecting because it's unusual, this episode, in that the person directing the episode is the focus of the episode. So he has to be both behind and in front of the camera. technically at the same time. There's a quote here that says originally on our director's schedule for that season, Avery wasn't scheduled to direct far beyond the stars. And I think as we talked about it more, it became clear that we can't not have Avery direct that episode because it's all about representing this struggle in our country's past and in some instances, the present. Brooks himself recalled, Ara Bear came to me. He said, I have this idea and I want to know if you're interested because you'll be in front of the camera, but I also want to know if you want to direct. And I said, well, okay. I'm glad he did because he does a superb job. And I think that that story had to be told by him as well. Like it needed to be acted by a black man and told by a black man. And particularly the scene at the end, because, like, I think the breakdown is brutal and having him carried off in an ambulance at the end, like, um, there's all sorts of things that make me want the episode not to end like that for it to end in some way and triumph. In a way, it does end in tribe because here is Cisco 300 years later, who's not subject to these same forces. But this is a story told by Avery with Avery's approval, he didn't write it, but he agreed to act it. He acted it. He determined himself how he was going to play it. And so the story is told by him in very large measure, and that's absolutely the right call. And so it's kind of our job to sit back and just see what he says I think. I know I know we do like a triumphant ending, especially against something. terrible with racism. I think sometimes you just have to make the point of the injustice of it. And the way this episode, and I realise watching this time, just how this episode played me emotionally, watching it scene foreseen taking him to such lows and such highs. So he has this great idea and he's such a dreamer and he wants to write this story and then he's told straight away, no, that's absurd. No one's going to buy it. We're not doing it. He's really despondent. Then they find a way of making it work. Then there's that great scene in the cafe, where he's on top of the world, 3 cents a word, 3 cents a word. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And you're just like totally there with him, your tribe. And because Penny Johnson, Gerald is punching the air. It's the most triumphant moment ever. And then, obviously, that awful, brutal moment where Jimmy is killed and he is beaten to a pulp and it's so unpleasant to watch and really confronting in a way that Star Trek very rarely is. Yeah. Making me feel so discomforted. And then afterwards, I'm like, oh, but he's going to get his hero moment. The story is going to be published. How amazing. And then that's torn away from him. Like, I was a mess watching this, you know? And Star Trek doesn't usually have this effect on me. No. That's the thing that we can't possibly experience firsthand. is that experience of just the daily pressures and setbacks and the things that he has to think about. So he's a great genius and a great writer who doesn't get published because of all the pressures arrayed against him, just the daily pressures and how many different ones they are and all the different directions that they come from and just watching that experience. Do you know what I mean from the outside and having him tell that story and having him talk about how incredibly dispiriting and ultimately kind of inevitable and how impossible those things are to kind of defeat in so many cases, like I think, you know, that's something that we need to hear, that we need people to tell us. For an hour, I am made to experience what it must be like to be made to be felt like you are the other. Yeah, yeah. And it's not nice at all. And I'm a gay man and you think I would experience it. I don't really. I haven't, you know, the wildlife's been quite kind to me in that respect. But, you know, looking from this lens, it's just awful. Yeah. But somehow, still a delightful episode of Star Trek. It's amazing. It is really properly amazing. All right. I think we go in do you think? Let's do it. Okay. Five, four, three, two, one and we're off. Like, there's an immediate reminder that we're in the middle of the Dominion war. Ah, yeah. Exposition Central in it's team one. Oh, that looks horrible, isn't it? All those pads. Oh, so what happened to some guys did, blah, blah, blah. We get a lot of this at this point, don't we? Yeah. Patrol in the borders is dangerous. The jamadar are getting away with just murdering people, ad nause yeah, blah, blah. Yeah. But it means that the point of this scene is, isn't it? We retook the station, it was a moment of triumph. Everyone thought, well, that's it, you know? DS9's back on the tracks? No, okay, yeah. The war's still here and actually a lot of people are still dying. And they do make this point several times. You know, remember in the Palm Moonlight when you got all the lists on the wall. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think here, in that case, then it's kind of parallelling what Benny is going to go through as well, that moment of triumph and and then having it taken away. I think like having Brock Peters here is really great because that license, he licenses his appearance in the kind of dream sequence or whatever it is. I actually think that the least successful aspect of the episode is how it marries the 24th century thing with the story that's being told. And so this is a little bit like, you're going to hate me for saying it. These are the voyages. where we get an inset story that is supposed to inspire a character to make a decision. So the decision is, uh, am I going to give this up and do something else, right? And at the end of the day, he says, no, I'm gonna, you know, do the thing. But there's no real, very sensible line drawn between the 2 stories. Do you know what I mean? I don't know exactly what it is about Benny. basically an excuse to go on. sort of 50s, isn't it? You know? That's right. And the other thing, but the other thing that I think they do is that they don't attempt to give us space reasons for him being in the 50s, it is a profits thing, I think. But there's no orb involved? No, and we we do think it's the profits at this point, but then I think we're supposed to think in shadows and symbols. It's a par Ray thing. It's ambiguous It is ambiguous. speak in mysterious ways. Well, I mean, what we we do get that sort of white background at one point, that the profits, you know, that you encounter the property in, but I thought that was just a transitionary thing from the station to the road. Oh, yeah, but I think that they deliberately choose that in order to evoke the profits. This. Look, it's Renee walking past the door of the office, enjoying the fact that he can have a facial expression in that scene. My god. I could actually act. There is one line in that scene I love, which is a way only your family or people close to you can talk to, is when Brock Peters goes, well, what are you going to do about it then? Straight to the point. At this point, though, the episode is playing out like your average voyager. There's strange visions going on. you know, in our standard set. So you in a minute, you have Michael Dorn walking past, throwing a baseball in the air in slow motion in the baseball gear, although it looks great. Because it's these sets, you know. Oh, I love how tactile they are. Penny, Johnson, Gerald, Mabry Brooks. She's always touches his face, stroking his beard, you know? Well, you would, wouldn't you? Well, we'll point out that interview again, you know, my husband gets smile. Look, that's a beautiful, beautiful smile. Very jealous because I've got this gorgeous man, Avery Brooks, that I can act with every day on set. She goes, no, I say, good. I'm glad you're jealous. He's gorgeous and he's mine. She's a woman who just knows her mind. I love it. See, we get that when he walks through. I mean, how did they get all those taxi cabs? Where the hell did they all come from? Well, it's New York, isn't it? Is it New York? I don't know. Well, Paramount's not in New York, is it? No, no, no, no, but I mean, where are we? I don't know. Don't tell me they've left California. No, no, no. No, I mean, where's the story? Sorry, is there an outrageous suggestion? There's no way they've done that. Oh, so far, so the rapture. Cisco's having visions, you know, and he's in the same day a lot. Okay, and we even refer to the rapture, don't we? In typical Deep Says Night fashion where they say last year... You remember when I was having those visions about baseball? Is he going to need surgery again? Okay, we're covering all the bases now. So we're not doing that episode again. Yeah, yeah. Oh my god, hang on. Aaron Eisenberg in the scene. Yeah. So you've got to buy that on that. He's so great. I think he's struggling with the accent a little bit, but... Oh, come on, he's having fun. Yeah, yeah, yeah, here he really is. Me? like war stories. Did you see Burt Lancaster? And from here to eternity? So the great thing about Benny is how contained he is. And one of the reasons he's so contained is that he's consciously aware that his behaviour can be taken as offensive at any time. And so he's really, really restrained and his body language and even in the way he expresses himself facially. But he was there, he's relaxing in front of Miles, who he knows. Albert. Albert. That's right. He's a robot. That's because he is a robot. Sorry, Is that? Is he Amazon? Asimov? Is that what that? Like, he's called Albert Macklin? Is he? I like robots. They're very efficient. Well, so funny. Oh, you're going to be so quoted in this, so prepare yourself, all right? Of course. Oh, great. I'll tell you what. It's an arresting opening though, right? What the hell's going on? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So while we're doing the opening credits, I want to talk to you about a thing. So this is a thing that I was aware of vaguely, but I looked into. It's, um, a comic strip, a comic book called Weird Fantasy, a comic book called Weird Fantasy. And in issue 18 in 1953, there was a story called Judgement Day and an astronaut comes from Earth, from a sort of galactic alliance to a robot planet, to see whether they should be admitted into the alliance. But the robots are orange and blue and they discriminate among one another. Um, and so he decides that they can't go uh, into the alliance. And then the final scene has him going back into his rocket ship taking his helmet off, and we discover that he's a black man. When was I written? 1953. And all of the pushback that we get described here happens to that. They didn't want, you know, they said, you can publish this, but it needs to be a white guy at the end of the thing. Do you know what I mean? Like, but it manages to get past. You've been aware of that, surely. Well, no, because that's the point of the episode. That's the point of the comic strip, isn't it? Like it's a black man in the future who is a representative, an astronaut who is representing the Galactic Alliance and assessing someone else's fitness to join it, and he rejects it because they discriminate against one another on the colour of their outer shells. And, you know, like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And that was published. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but it was a struggle to get published. And so I think that this obviously is inspired to something about that. Oh, yeah. Wowsers. That's a great bit of trivia. Yeah. So, so what I like about this too, is that this whole episode starts with this conflict between, um, what's this character called, Herbert, between Armand Schimmerman's Herbert and Pabst who is played by Renee, and the argument is about donuts, and the guy whose editor is trying to stiff the writers by giving them stale donuts and he's quitting. That's a great comedy conflict over donuts, but it is eventually the same conflict they're going to have over race. You know what I mean? Well, and it's also a play on Cork and Odo. Yes, of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But completely different. Like the energy is so different. It is really different. So that it just never occurred to me. not just competent. character actors aren't they? that can handle this stuff. The only person who I think is a bit mannered is seen. Yeah, actually. He saw that, right? Red made ready tea. What an appalling concept, you know? He doesn't quite know what's happening here too, because why he's you know, he's a brown man, as Avery said, in that quote that you mentioned earlier. and his English. Do you know what I mean? And he doesn't seem to be subject to any of the racism that, do you know what it? So it's, yeah. You can always count on changing her. What can I say? Too much of my sauerkraut that night. so funny. A lonely little alien who's befriended by apathetic aliens who teach you how to smile. It's so delightful, but then this picture hear the sexy picture. Honeymoon on Andorus. Yeah, she's got she's got nipples, though. Like she's wearing a very thin, and you can see the nipples through her top, which is pretty funny. They just being menaced by a giant praying mantis. The picture, baby garbage, but the story will be art. will be art. Is there even more bouncing usual to the dialogue in this? Yeah, I think so. So that is beautiful. That picture of Deep Space 9 done in the style of a 1950s science fiction illustration is so beautiful, so good. And in fact, that's one of the reasons that that scene works later on when the police, you know, harass him and damage it is because the picture is so beautiful and because we know what it represents as well. I have to say, um, Nano makes the most of her every line in this as well. We look like writers, poor and needy and incredibly attractive. She sells every light. I love the bit as well when we cut to Kira, which she's going on about strong women in science fiction. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. A Negro with a typewriter. Run to the hills. It's the end of civilisation. And then he's naming all of these Black Riders, and I think that's really, really great. This is 1953 or whatever. And he lists all of the, all of the African-American writers, you know, famous literary figures. Do you know what I mean? He gets to talk about the heritage and contribution of those people to Ryan. I wonder if Avery brought some of that with him, you know? I do too, but I think... There's lots of little touches. You know the bit where he's walking down the street with all the kids and they're singing? Like, I just wonder if he brought all of that with him. And that's why he had to direct this. But again, that performance there where he lists the riders and then, you know, where he confronts Pabst there. And I talked about how physically restrained he is earlier, but he is he's seething with rage in that scene. Do you know what I mean? While being super aware. I mean, they can't afford to show it. Yeah. This picture is aware. The arbitrary building. where the 2 police officers are just so horrible to him. and he's just got to take it, you know? And sort of smile and say, thank you very much for not arresting me today. Yeah. And so that's 1953, but 70 years later, that's still a thing in America. Do you know what I mean? Like the issue of police violence against black people is more urgent and more vivid now. Now, in particular that we have phones so that we can all see it happening and so that people can document it. That's what Shimmerman says, though, in all the interviews. He's holding up a mirror to us now and saying this is not on. But now in 2024 as well. You know, where you have one political party that denies that it's an issue or is okay with it if it is in America, you know. Like I think Star Trek likes to do this sort of thing, but they're usually quite safe about it. They really take a risky path here, don't they? Yeah. But I think it's less of an, I think it's less of a, like I think it's, if anything, more urgent an issue now. Do you know what I mean? And not that black people haven't been aware of this the whole time. Do you know what I mean? That black people have not been aware that they have to be deferential to the police, that they that they have to do what we Avery do here all the time just every day. Do you know what I mean? I've actually, I've seen this TikTok videos recently of this exact thing where they've been filmed, they're filming themselves being treated badly by the police. Yeah, yeah. And and the fact that, you know, those 2 police, and they're slightly comedy police in a way, do you know what I mean? It's Jeffrey and Mark, you know, kind of doing TV, political. Yeah, film police. And the only reason that they don't arrest him is they kind of go ah, we've got some some place to be in 15 minutes. I can't be bothered and then they leave. The one no, the one sort of negative note I would have is the scene where they beat him. I wish they haven't put them in makeup. We cut to weigh in and do cut in makeup and it's just making it's adding a fancy element to it. I almost can see why they're doing that because it's a bit on the nose. Maybe it's a tone of down a bit. Yeah, but I agree. It still makes its point, but yeah. Yeah, well... See, this I like... We get a chance. The camera goes across this beautifully dressed set and there's a jazz score playing and this just isn't white, the Star Trek we're used to watching. Oh, yeah. We can we not set the Star Trek in the future anymore. It's so boring. Look how small it is. Like he's got that room. It annoys me that he can't is that a... Yeah, anyway, his painting's crooked. But all of the books, like all of those books, and but it is, it's so small. And like he's been there in the suit, being respectable, doing the right thing, trying not to kind of offend anyone. Do you know what I mean? trying to stay out of people's way, trying not to be a threat. You know, something that he's conscious of all the time. taking the milk out of the fridge and just putting it against your head to cool down. Isn't it good? I just love these little details. Yeah, yeah. I remember reading a review about this at the time, saying, like can we not take Avery out of DS 9 and put him into more realistic dramas because he's just so great in this setting. I think he's always great personally. Yeah, I do too. That image. Isn't that good? I'm old enough to remember typewriters, just. My mother had a typewriter, and I just wanted something that had all those buttons on it, and so I actually taught myself to do typing with the book that she was teaching herself typing on. There is something sort of dramatic about it, isn't it? It's great. Yeah. And now how he falls asleep. He misses the date and Penny Johnson comes in eliminated, isn't it? I thought it was in a second. Oh, is it? I'm skipping ahead. I haven't seen her yet. Yeah, yeah. Have we not? Oh, no, no, no. The best is yet to come then. Yeah. Oh dear, that reflection on the... 25 years ago. Gullet and slack. Oh, this? Well, the boys singing. Do, do, do, do, do. Yeah, this is adorable, is it? And I love that one as well. Like, I love that he's a little bit more relaxed here. He's still wearing a suit and tie and stuff, but he just seems a little bit more relaxed, I think. Did I say that Sid was the only one that was mattered? I think Sirok is a little bit mattered, but I love it anyway. He's great. Hey, Benny, you want to buy a watch? You know, it's a great... He struggles with the accent a little bit too, I think. Oh, but Penny Johnson, Gerald. Come on now. It's lovely, isn't it? It's so nice. It's so beautiful. I think it helps that we've had a couple of seasons of them. I mean, their chemistry was instant, but, you know, it's just on fire at this point. When you gonna ask me to get married, baby? I love that too. Like the fact that, you know, that they need some more money before they can get married. And so he lives in this little tiny flat by himself and she, you know, does she leave with her parents? I don't know, she lives by herself, possibly, and here is big old Michael Dawn with, look at that trial. Oh, my God. Oh, he's gorgeous, isn't he? I love this relationship too. What, him and uh, Cassidy. Cassie. Him and Cassidy is great. Like him and Cassidy is really funny. Okay, an exchange later, where he goes. What are you doing till eight? And she goes, I don't know, but I'm not doing it with you. But I also love, you know, my heart belongs. to Benny and he goes yeah, but I just think it's the waste, a waste of a very pretty heart, which I think is... doing that thing as well. They're doing the metaphors we normally get in Star Trek. He goes, stretch free. you're out And then Michael Dawn goes, don't worry, I'll get another chance at the bat. Yeah, it's great. Because he's a ball, he's a baseball player. It's a drawer. This is so important though, isn't it, that he is a bit of a celebrity. amongst his own people, but actually he's considered a total outlier amongst the white baseball players. So he's playing baseball in a white team. Like, he's not in a Negro league or anything like that. Like he's playing baseball and they barely tolerate him even though he's a very good baseballer and he can't live anywhere else. He can't live in a white neighbourhood. They wouldn't tolerate that. Oh, it looks great though. What a costume. Yeah, I don't know about the wig either. I'm not a big fan of the wig, but like whatever. Um, It helps, it helps as well. There's an established relationship between these 2 actors as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. That helps sell why he's so heartbroken when Jimmy dies. I'll just say that to you. Hey man, why are you always trying to lecture me? I'm not going to say the line, but there's a very, there's a very confronting line that Jimmy gets to say. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, where he get, he uses the N word in the, in the, like the N word. Oh, shocks, that go through. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, but, you know, like, I think it's absolutely reasonable. And it's, you know, in a, it's being told, you know, set in, in an episode with a largely black cast where, um, it's directed by a black man, you know. But I think, like, again, too, what they managed to do by having a range of people by not just having Benny, but by having Benny and Cassie and, you know, Jimmy and, um, I don't know what, uh, Willie you know, like having those people, we see them all undergoing, you know, experiencing racism in their own ways. Oh my god. Oh my god, Terry... She's got a word in her belly. That's interesting, but that's disgusting. Disgusting. She's doing a little voice, you know, like she goes, I really like science fiction. He goes, bless you, my child. The world needs more people are you. That's wonderful, is it? It's the best thing I've read since the puppet masters. She's like, she don't get much, but she grabs hold of it. It's wonderful, isn't it? That's a great role. And, you know, particularly since she's this sort of very sort of serene and self-possessed science officer and here she's just absolutely ditsy. Total bimbo. I think the way Colomini plays that sort of, you can never remember his lines. That could be so annoying, but it's so endearing. Yeah, it's great, isn't it? Oh, that's awesome. Yes. So where, when, um, um, when Kay says, uh, you know, I like the Kira character, she's in Kira's outfit, and just for a second. Yeah, is that the 1st time we've had that bleed through, is that the 1st time? apart from the window, apart from the reflection in the window. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Oh here we go. You know I can't print it. Yeah. Come on, Benny, he's a Negro captain. The head of a space station, for Christ's sake. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Even though for Christ's sake, seems like that's, you don't get that in Star Trek, do you? Because no one swears like that in Star Trek. It's almost like they know all the rules are off just for one week. Yeah, it's pretty good, isn't it? Cool, sorry. So what I love about this is he is acting as if he has no choice. Do you know what I mean? That there are racist forces beyond his control, and he would love to do this, but he can't. right? And then Herb's response, you know, that's the most imbecilic attempt, I've heard, to rationalise personal cowardice. Um, you know, like, like, and he just nails it. You know, this guy's a fucking coward. He doesn't actually give a shit about Benny, um, and he will just roll over and do whatever the guy says. And it sort of plays out later on because when he fires him and tells him, there's no real regret in the performance. He's just saying, this is what's happening. Sorry. He writes about Roberts. That's because he is a robot. I'm interested in Negroes or whites, it's this robot. You're right. Assassimorphan. He's got the laws there on the on the desk. Look, and he even tries to offer you, you write a novella based on this. I'll give you the cover next time. Anything, just get off this. Stop doing this. And then he does the 50 years. You can publish this in 50 years. That line about however long it takes for the human race to become colourblind. And of course, it's much longer than 50 years, you know, like much longer. Here we are 70 years later, right? So that's brutal. Initially, I thought, wow, he puts it at 50 years. That seems sort of unreasonable, but of course, you know, it's actually much longer than that. Although, you know, in 50 years time you do have this show, you do have deep space 9 on top. what I was about to say. Yeah, surely that proves that some steps have been made. Yeah, absolutely. No, no. And this is obviously pointing that out as well. Look, you know we've done this. Yeah. But I I love Jimmy and his criminality is because otherwise all he gets to do is be a shoeshine boy or wash dishes. Do you know what I mean? He has so few options open to him. Yeah, there we go. There's the N-word. Um, yeah, yeah. And all of these political discussions that they're having. Yeah, around, This is God's way of telling me to go into the restaurant business. Oh, she goes, you don't have to give up writing altogether, you know, you can write something for the Amsterdam news. or some other Negro newspaper. Yeah, yeah. So I hadn't heard of the Amsterdam news, but obviously... Kind of in her own way segregated him herself or attempting to in a way. But she's, she's right. Isn't she right? Do you know what I mean? Like, she's right. Yeah, yeah. That's great. And then his reaction. He's like, I'm sorry? I didn't mean to frighten you, you know, in a way that would never talk. No, because he's like a sort of rather goofy, like kind of sweet goofy guy, Willie. He sort of adorable. And like I love that they have wharf in full Klingon outfit as well. Like, he's not in a Starfleet outfit. What are you doing till 10? Dawn says. It all says this is the best the best Star Trek episode he ever worked on. And given, you know, he did a lot more a T engine. More than anyone else. ever. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, he didn't have to put the makeup on in his own hands on. But he says, because there's a wonderful 8 minute tiny documentary on the DVD set with some great little snippets of interviews and Dawn just goes, my God, they threw so much at this. Why didn't we do a two-parter? I don't think this needed to be a two-parter, though. No. Yeah, I can understand that though. You might get more scenes if that was the case, but yeah, yeah yeah, yeah. Another episode out of makeup. I don't know. I mean, who was it that said we could go to a series? Like, did some one of your quotes earlier was someone saying we could have done a whole series on this, one of the actors. Have you ever had that? Have you ever had that moment like he's got here where, you know the inspiration strikes and you're just so excited about the process of creating something? I think he captures that brilliantly. Oh, here we go. She's going to start stroking his head. Oh yeah. Oh, no, she's kissing his head. Her husband's seething right now, watching this. How is work, Penny? She's like, I'm acting, darling. I'm just acting Oh, that's beautiful, isn't it? But it's not like, it's not like in the future, in the, in DS9 she's not doing this anyway, because he wear the Warriors. She's falling over him, you know? I really like that about this show. It's just how much the characters touch each other. It just suggests a familiarity immediately. Yeah. But so she's right. Is it? I don't know. Like because she as well has been taught just by the experiences of her daily life to reign her expectations in, to not expect anything too good. And that's the problem. So she's telling him, and turns out she's right. That he's not going to be successful as a writer. Oh, no, but I love a dreamer and you've got to have a dream. Yeah, yeah, yeah. When she says to him there. How about before we'll go, we'll take a spin on the dance floor and they start dancing down the floor. And suddenly we're back at Deep Space 9. It's times like these. I wish we'd never heard of the dominion The transitions. I think he does some really well Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, he doesn't do them too. Obviously, the camera is like at a different distance and stuff when we can't. Do you know what I mean? Like it's not just a, it's, it's a surprise, this bit where he falls over to the piano. Wait, I've got to get to the PR. something dramatic to fall on. Oh, well. That is how you hold your partner. Look at her. It's beautiful, isn't it? Old stock shop, New York, 1950s. wonderful. Have you lost your mind? The pace of this as well. Watch the pace of the dialogue. I mean, see, that's what I that's what I like. Do you know what I mean? You know, they're so such a range of things that he experiences in quite a short amount of time. There's a wonderful quote from Renee. When Ira Bear very tentatively came up to him and said, you know I've got this role for you in this episode. He goes, but you saw I've got to be the massive racist. And he said, well, he goes, send me the script. And so he got the script. And I was like, even more tentatively approaching him going, is that okay? And he went, Ira, I'm a character actor. This is a great script. Of course, I want to do it. Yeah. You know, I think I think actors love playing the bad guy. And so here we have, we here we have Isaac Asimov. we have Albert making the suggestion that we make Deep Space 9 season one a dream. So there's seven. There's a lot of people that wish that was the case, you know? Well, so we have the 1st the 1st story has 6 sequels. Yeah. So that's the 7 series of Deep Say nine. isn't it? That's right. You know, this is... pointed out the whole Dominion. I know that they're going to seven. Yeah. And so if we make series, if we make the 1st one, uh, like a black man in the present day dreaming about the future where people like him can be, uh, you know, um, station captains or whatever, is is that okay? Can we do that? And they kind of go, well, what about the sequels? And we kind of go, well, we'll work it out. But that, they kind of go with that and then that comes back at the end in a way that I don't think is, they don't properly, fully commit to. And so I don't think that works, but we're going to fully commit to it, weren't they? Because They were going to do that taxi on what you leave behind of Benny Russell closing the book on the thing and the whole thing had been what he'd written, but understandably they didn't go for that. Hang on, Nathan. having it a green, having it a dream, guts the story. Actually, it kind of does. But isn't that what this is exactly what this story is telling right? Well, yeah, it is telling that story, isn't it? So, but and it doesn't gut the story in a way because it's still the story. Do you know what I mean? Like if it's not a dream, it's still only a story. So it's that thing that I say about collapsing those levels. You know, like if you, like a flashback is still part of the action, a dream is still part of the action. So it doesn't quite gut the story. I think it makes it a bit more on the nose. Like, I think it, yeah, like, if it's a story about a black man who is just the, you know, the captain of a station, but it's not essentially about that, but we can't put it in unless it's like a black person, you know, more of a social commentary. Yeah, and maybe, I don't know, maybe that makes a story better. Look at all this. I know it's lavish, isn't it? It's amazing Instrument. It's extras all dressed up in music. and you've got a gorgeous penny in their costumes, dancing through the streets. I know. it's just tremendous I'd be happy just to spend my life Oh he's got a lovely voice. That tenor voice, that beautiful tenor voice. Why didn't he sing more often in this show? Wow. You saw how upset people got when he sung once, right? It's so bad. hate those people. We just, we missed it because we were talking, but the bit in the cafe where Cassie is getting so excited because he's, he's, oh, my my story's been published. Man, just the high of that scene is so well played. And the red dress, like she's got in the red dress in order to go out, we're going out to celebrate. It comes religion, looks to spoil everyone's good time. Yeah, so the pa, like rating his pa. Yeah, that's... I put the spare, walk arm in arm. Although he's got such a great voice for it though, isn't he? Oh, yeah, Brock Peters is fantastic and the face and everything. Like, he's so good. comes out of the shadows like a spectre. Yeah, yeah. Oh this bit is so tough. I mean, look at the blood there. Yeah. But I mean, police still do that now. It's, it's, it's his reaction when he just says he was breaking into a car. Like you shot him because he was breaking into a car. And they say, yeah, stand back. Like it's the most natural thing in the world. that. That, it's just... Oh, that's so... But having, we know why he's losing his shit. Do you know what I mean? Because this is the like the pressure that he's under all the time. But do you know what really gets me? One is the POV shots. So we're literally being beaten up in this scene. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And two, it's the cuts to the people watching. showing no surprise that is happening. No, that's right. A series of black people like on, on sort of, um, you know, fire escapes and balconies and stuff, watching this happen, again clearly. Yeah, oh, just awful. But brilliant telly. I like this too. So they haven't gone too heavy on the, like, bruise makeup or anything in some weeks, of course, yeah. Yeah, but they've decided to make some weeks pass. But there's a kind of, like, don't you think as she's putting the clothes on, she's being careful not to hurt him. Like she knows that there's a real tentative about. Yeah, he's flinching a bit because like they're just conveying through acting that he's still in pain and it's not just the stick. I mean, he sort of hangs his head as she puts the sunglasses on. He's really retreated into himself even further. So we saw him initially. Like, easy to injured to dress quite as naturally as he did before. He can't dress in the suit, you know, so he's not as well dressed as he was. I see now. performance in this scene. It's so wrong. Apparently so he puts so much into it that when he went down, when he breaks down, he couldn't get up for ages, like he was just lost in the moment, in the emotion of it. Oh, Albert sold a novel, apparently. Oh, let me guess. robots. One else, see sense? So there's still a few moments for humour here, but oh, yeah. What's, what's, it's so interesting is that for the most part you're right. Avery's been contained throughout the episode. I think to make this land as strong as it does. But even now, when he 1st finds out about the paper, the magazine. He's sort of calm initially. And I thought, no, no, you've got to be angry about this, and then he just loses it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's just that that accumulation of things in every scene is in some way humiliated. And then the reaction is like, if you don't stop, I'm going to call the police. Yeah, yeah. We know what treatment he's going to get. Yeah that's right. Yeah, because he is a massive, horrible racist. You know, he's he doesn't fight for Benny because he doesn't really care. I just can't imagine being caged like that and not being able to just be yourself. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's a... And I think it's... There's a so someone said that somewhere on the set. There was a note from perhaps to herb saying no one will ever believe that a cheerleader would be able to fight vampires and he noticed. There are some notes on the wall. Yeah, yeah. This is the point where everyone's gone, my God, it's him from Buffy. All this time. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right because he's out of makeup. Don't tell me what I know. Apparently in this scene as well. Great, isn't he? Renee and Avery came to blows because they both really wanted to play this scene to the hill and they kind of weren't in sympatico with what they were doing and they got there, but they had a blistering row on the set while making it. Right, right. Oh, even when he says, you can't fire me, I quit. It just feels like a defeat. Yeah, yeah, but that's that's, yeah. Yeah. Try to stay calm. No, fuck you. Yeah, and all of that too. Do you know what I mean? It is and the calm never got me a damn thing is exactly right because that's what we've seen him doing the entire time. That's what we've seen him just absolute self-control all the time. Oh, Jesus Christ, when he starts crying. Yeah. I mean, this is some serious acting. I'm a human being, damn it. I mean, I've heard some people criticise when he starts going, you know, you cannot destroy, and I do. But that's just the way he acts. I'm sorry, get over it. Yeah, no, that's that's him too. And like there's something odd about what he's saying too. And... Do you know what I mean? Like what he's actually saying it doesn't quite make sense and because he's losing it at this point. Look at the tears on his face. No, no, no. I know. I like it when he implores them as well. Do you hear what I'm telling you? The ancient knowledge line is so strange. It's so strange, that's ancient knowledge. What is that? I love it. It's... Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's it. Yeah. Oh, fucking hell. Oh, yeah. And it is like, I just don't think it's possible to say to Avery. I think you should have rained that in a bit because this... I don't think he should have done. No, I don't either, that this is him writing about experience. you know, him in a TV show that he's directing and he knows what this lived experience is like, even though he's living decades later. He knows enough about what it's like to experience that kind of constant pressure. Imagine people watching this that have gone through this. Like, just at that moment when he's so angry, you know, going, yeah I get it. Yeah, yeah. That that is the sort of intensity. Is it anywhere else in Star Trek? That level of intensity? Yeah, yeah. It's pretty, it is pretty amazing. Maybe they're probably a couple of times in Curtman Trek probably. Yeah. Yeah. Not always successfully. Don't you know, brother Benny? You are the dreamer and the dream. So this is the bit that shoots me a little bit. You know, um, there's an episode of Barfy. Oh, yeah, and like here we go. We're travelling through in warp in the in the ambulance. Oh, now we're back on the station. Boo. Yeah, that's right. Do you remember the episode of Buffy? like in season 7 where it turns out that Buffy, like Joyce is still alive and Buffy's just insane. She's gone. That's normal again. She's been six. A great episode. Se six, normal again. Yeah. And there was some, you know, they were thinking about whether they were going to make that the framing story and there is even an indication in that episode that the whole show is that... ends with... Oh no, we've lost her and the camera comes out of the asylum and that's the end of it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's it. She's like in that. So, so, is that a bit of a betrayal of your audience, though? Like, no, that have investigated. I still... know what you're going to say. But I don't think, and I, I don't, I think that that's bleak and series 6 of Buffy is really bleak. I think the idea, like, does the idea that it is a black man in 1953 dreaming this, which was what was suggested, wasn't it, in the, in the kind of uh, magazine offices, is that good or bad? And if, if you want to do it, do you want to have this character these characters just here talking about it in the sort of traditional no subtext in Star Trek kind of way? Do you know what I mean? They can't do it subtly, they can't come back to Benny, you know like they can't, like, I think maybe it undermines the Benny story that we've just read to have him successfully tell the story. Do you know what I mean? Like somehow this story gets told. I don't know, I don't know. I don't quite know what should have been done. They can't re-bake a decision in this final scene. I was like, what are they trying to tell me? They're trying to explain what this is all about and they don't want to explain what this was all about because they want it a bit ambiguous. And I just think, I don't think this conversation helps at all, and it's a bit too on the nose. Do you know what I mean? Like, what does that, what would it mean to say, what if we were all just kind of fictional characters? We're all fixing. Well, and then if... If they had gone with that with what you leave behind, it's like oh, okay, so I know it's not real and we're not going to have that conversation again. But like, I like to think that in the future, yes, this would happen and there would be a black man in charge of this stay station. It's a sensitive man and a wonderful guy. And then at the end of the show, they say, actually, no, that didn't happen. It was all in the mind of someone hoping it would happen. I kind of think that ruins the idea of it. Yeah, maybe, maybe. don't know. But so yeah, it's a bit of a bum note to end an incredible episode on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you know what I think of? Like, this is obviously vastly celier episode and more lightweight one. It's Shipping a Bottle in Star Trek the Next Generation, where we end it asking a fairly similar question where, you know, is it perhaps we ourselves are just part of a complex simulation playing out in a device sat on someone's table, which of course they are and data kind of thinks. Is it data he thinks twice and does it end program and program and then we go out to the credit? And so that is that is the show acknowledging that it's a TV show which is kind of fun. And I think maybe you're right. I don't think having Benny dream this. I don't think helps. I don't think it comments on anything. Of course you can't do the end program thing. What you're going to do, Bashir, go, war, no wonder I was so overwritten in series one and two. It's just Benny hadn't kind of worked it out yet. Yeah. So, so I don't know. I think then that that final scene we could perhaps have done without it. Do you know what I love about the confidence of season 6 of D Space 9 is that we've just had this incredible episode, yeah? And well away from our usual deep space 9 setting. Um, and then we skip back to the, you know, our normal setting and the next episode starts, and it's one little ship, and they're shrinking down, the runabout, the size of a coffee cup, and Kira's pissing herself laughing about the whole thing in the 1st scene. Right, they were just going for it in series 6, yeah. But amongst all of it, you know, the amazing 6 episode arc at the beginning of the seasons, we've already done rocks and shoals and how great was that? And they're like, brilliant episodes in their waltz, that amazing psychological drama with Dukat down on a planet with Cisco. Um, right the way through to stuff like um, his way, gorgeous romantic comedy with Kira and Odo. In the Power Moon, like, whatever you think, it's doing interesting things. Yeah, absolutely. Sound of her voice, more sort of explorations of the war. But this really stands out as probably the peak of season six. It's certainly the one everybody remembers, right? Yeah, yeah. No, I think it's good. And I think actually just kind of dropping the allegory, dropping the sort of space nonsense for once and just kind of telling a more straightforward story about an issue that the director and the star are particularly concerned and passionate about. Like it makes it pretty special. It's pretty hard to equal, I think, when it comes to a Star Trek message episode. Yeah, because I'm flicking through the script and going, oh, it's like, fuck, no no technobabble this week, all right? Oh, no, it's glorious. I mean, no notes, really. I think it's superb. Yeah, brilliant. So it's the end of the episode and it's time for us to work out what we're going to be doing next. You rolled this one. I think you are having a better run than me, actually, at picking episodes. And so, hang on. I think, although I don't want to be too mean about you choosing an enterprise episode, but putting up anything against far beyond the stars coming next was going to struggle a bit. Yeah, that is true. But in order to get a better chance at a good episode. I've decided to restrict my choice to one very reliable Star Trek series, and that is Star Trek Lower Dex. Oh, wonderful. Well, I hope it is one of the last series, because I haven't seen any of those yet. Oh, yeah, okay. All right. Okay, so here you go. We still can't choose a season, can we? No, not yet. Shame or ever. All right, here goes. Season one, episode three, temporal edict. Temporal Edict. Okay, I'm going to do something. I don't usually do, and that is read out the synopsis each time because I don't know too much about these. Captain Freeman orders a new policy aboard the ship that forces everyone to meet strict new productivity standards. Oh, that does sound fun. It is pretty good. I do remember that, and she learns a valuable lesson about not doing that. But I am going to try again. We have done a couple of season ones, haven't we? I've just rolled this one though. Season one, episode 10, no small parts, which is the final episode of season one. So it sees the introduction of the character of Peanut Hamper. And... laughing already. It also has shacks dying heroically to save Rutherford's life. Oh, and I do remember there's some great, like there's some money in the animation in... yeah, yeah. It does look pretty good. Season finale. Yeah, I don't, we haven't done one yet, haven't we? We did the one before. We did crisis point. Yeah, that's true. That's true. Oh, I was so hoping you was going to roll. Um, what's it called? mathematically perfect. Redemption. The peanut hamper one. Wonderful. So good. So good. Should I try another one? Oh, cool, then. Yeah, all right. I've just rolled 2nd contact, which is series one, episode one. Can you kick out seriously? Dangerous game, which we've done before. Cupid's errant arrow, which we've done before. Kashon, his eyes open, which introduces Lieutenant Kashon, the Tamarian commander. Um, it's very silly. Let's try another one. Grounded series 3, episode one. Oh, Carito's crew on Lee Freeman awaiting trial. Oh my god, that's that wonderful episode where they try and break her out, isn't it? It's I think it's pretty good, actually. really great. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, we've skipped from a finale to an opener. to a season opener. Okay, so grounded season three, episode one. I mean, it's almost guaranteed to be entertaining. Of course it is. You've been listening to Untitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford and Nathan Bottomley, we're online at Untitled Star Trek Project com, where you can find subscription links and links to our social media accounts. Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceran, and the theme was composed by Cameron Lamb. This episode was recorded on the 14th of May 2024 and released on the 7th of June. We'll see you next time for Star Trek Lower Decks, Grounded. It was, um... for Spacebase. Hello, dear listener. Welcome back to Flights through Entire, no, what is it? 2nd great and bountiful Human Empire, the only doctor who... Yeah, yeah. The only Doctor Who flash cast that does say space restaurant and space champagne and space, you know, hats. You know, that scene from sleep no more, like the funniest line in sleep no more, where it's Capoldi going, people don't say space restaurant and space, you know, hats. Like, it's so great. It's so funny. Don't you remember that? Two minutes later. We could be attacked by space pirates. and I just go, yes, I won. I don't know, though. I also really like the. Oh that's so racist. It's the Salurans. all over again. I get to name them all. I love that bit. All right. Do you know about judgement day? We'll talk about it. I want talk about it. Is that a spinoff? No, it's a... I think it's one of the things that this is based on, this story. Oh, sorry. Oh, true again. No, no, no. All right. Hey, Joe. Hi.