All In

Hey, Joe. Hi. So, we are back after weeks and weeks of Nighty Star Trek. We're back nearly in the present day, just about exactly 2 years ago. This episode airs for the 1st time after a 6 week break. It's the 1st episode of the 2nd half of Discovery Series 4 and it's called All In. coming straight after the end of the 1st half of the season of season four, which we've also done an episode of Commentary on. That's right. That was but to connect. We are avoiding the very beginning and the very end of season four. The end, which I want to reach, because you reliably inform me, is fantastic. Yeah it is pretty good. Can I say something immediately arresting to you? Oh, go on. I think for the 1st time since starting, I'm tired of Star Trek Project, I am in complete accord with Jammer. Now, to be fair, Gemma gave this one star less than he gave Bem. I know that is your gauge. Refuse QED, really. He gives us 2 of four, which means he's sort of middling. And I think that's a fair marking for this because I did think this was a perfectly amiable hour of television. but compared to the highs I've seen of Discovery elsewhere. It isn't doing anything too revolutionary. I think what its role is. I think what it does is, but to connect ends with that kind of catastrophic break between Michael and book, because they're on opposite sides of a important pressing political question, which is, you know, we have this DMA, this big thing that's hoovering up planets and has already destroyed books, homeworld, do we try and make 1st contact with it or do we send a bomb through the DMA and try and warm them off. And she, she is absolutely committed to the ideals of the Federation, because she's Michael and this is the show, but books decision is also completely understandable, given what he's been going through all season. But the thing is that we had that decision made and we saw that decision being made when he left. And so we never saw him make that decision. We knew that he was going to, we thought he was going to probably go off with Taka and do what the Federation and its allies had decided not to do. But we never saw it happen. And so at the time, the thing that got me excited about the prospect of this episode, it's an episode that takes the 2 of them we thought we weren't going to see them, and it takes the 2 of them and it puts them on opposite sides for poker table. And so we see them actually going through this, we see their relationship and how it works, and we get to see that being made in a much more character context than a political context. And so I kind of like that. This is the central relationship of the show. It's pretty important, I think. And I think that, you know, the idea that we were, we just weren't going to see book again, and Michael and book weren't ever going to be able to talk about what had happened until the finale or even later than that. I didn't think that was satisfactory. So I was kind of glad of that. And I think this is a gentle run-up to the 2nd half of the season. I thought that was hilarious, how, you know, the cliffhanger to the last episode was, oh, going, oh, shit, as he's gone off, you know, we're never going to see him. It's a good cliffhanger. And then we spend 10 minutes at the start of this with them all going, right, you've got to go and find them. You got to stop him. And then the next team, she's found him. Okay, okay. That's right. She is the most competent woman in all of Starfleet. I telling you. She gets himself. And to be fair, Booker knows that she's going to find him. He absolutely knows that she knows where he is, he just thinks that Starfleet's going to stop her from doing it. But this is not about the search for Booker. This is about putting them together and getting the decision made again. And so at the end of the episode. The decision is definitely made. It's the same decision that we made 1st time, but we got to see it happen in a more interpersonal kind of context. What it is, though, is the cliffhanger did make you think that it was about going after Booker and it wasn't. It made a big deal out of him going and then she just finds him. And I don't know, it just felt a bit underwhelming. And I get what you're saying. It's not the cliffhanger is about his decision to go his separate ways from her and make his own choice. It just felt weird, those 2 things things in succession like that. You've just told me everything this episode does well. What I think it does less well is it takes far too long to get to the point. So the, yeah, we have that great moment around the poker table and it is a great moment, but that's about the 40 minute mark of this episode. And the rest of the time we're kind of marking time going to sort of the seedier locations of the galaxy. And I quite like that. But then that leads into my other problem is this kind of lacks the sparkle and the energy that I was expecting from that kind of location, which is like this casino in this, well, in in the middle of a hologramaphic dragon's mouth or something. The entrance to it is spectacular and then everything else is sort of a lot of drab dark rooms with everyone sitting around sort of throwing chips on the table. Yeah. Well, but you see, I think that the objection here is like saying it takes too long for image and the sand and shadows and symbols to do anything, that that 1st 45 minutes of that 2 parter is just us hanging around rehashing the character stuff that's happened in the lead up to it and in the series 6 Cliffhanger. And I think where you're more invested in the characters, you would find those scenes more interesting in themselves. The image in the sand is taking 3 character plots and playing the one after another. So it feels like it's got to be, it's exactly what but to connect it last time. when you had the computer plot, you had the stammets and culba plot and you had the... And so it felt like it goes by by a lick and you're learning a lot about the characters and in there, you add extraordinary scenes like that therapy scene for culba. Yeah, yeah, yeah. absolutely amazing. And, you know, as good as that scene around the poker table is here. It isn't a patch on the writing that was there in the previous episode. My other big issue with this is this is the 2nd episode this season now where I'm not seeing this crew working together in succession and I think they've really got something with the discovery crew at this and the glimpses I get. There's a sweet moment with Saru and Burnham near the beginning. There's a great scene between Culber and Stamet, somewhere in the middle. And then at the end, when they all come together, and, you know it's like, here's the solve. The scam bit of knowledge I found in this episode to go towards the arc plot. Let's go, but they're all working together really, really well. And I just, I would like, and I'm reliably formed by you again that there is more of that in the 2nd half of the season, which I'm pleased because it took them a long time for this crew to properly gel and reap rewards like this. So keeping them apart as much as they are, it seems a bit old. Well, I mean, remember, like everyone gets something to do in but to connect. Where's Tilly? So she's left at this point. What? They've taken up Tilly and Georgia. No wonder it's so bloody serious. Yeah, so Tilly was back, I think, she will be back. but she's not a regular and she leaves early in series four in an episode that we actually rolled. It's a very kind of standard sort of Star Trek story, which I think is really well done. It's a little bit like Galileo 7 only not crap. And she leaves at the end of that to join Starfleet Academy and sort of teach there. And obviously Shorjo is off making preparations for her long awaited return in the section 31 film. But everyone's in that finale. And so this one has to concentrate on the central relationship of book and and Michael, and that's not, you know, the only thing there. I mean, they're not going to be together until the finale. So we are going to see them again and it will just be the crew. I do buy the relationship. I do think it's mature. I certainly think it's sexy because the 2 of them are absolutely gorgeous. Oh, beautiful. And they do have good chemistry. I said to you off my before we started that I've not really seen it apart from the beginning of season 3 and you tell me the start of season four. I don't really say I'm having a lot of fun together. So I don't know if it's an enjoyable relationship to watch. I believe it. Well, again, we destroyed his planet early in this season and so... It's got a creeping a lot of fun. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There is a lovely episode in the 1st half of the season, which is all about Michael's concern for his grief and that realises that in a really kind of interesting science fiction way that's not dumb, which is kind of nice. Do you buy that if you're not invested in this relationship, you know, and some people might not be, that this episode would be a bit of a chore. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because the relationship is all character stuff. Like this episode is our go slow episode where we do character stuff. I think there's some comedy in there, particularly with the character of Hasmazaro, who I think is pretty successful. He was all right. Well, the best character, I thought, was the woman whose name I never remember, sits on the bridge normally, who gets up in the ring and starts kicking the shit out of people and I'm like, yeah yeah, yeah. So that's Joanne. No, I couldn't. She been in it since the 1st, you know, since she 1st got on Discovery. That's another big strength of discovery. See, I can't say nice things, is that these characters in series one but got a line and a shot in most episodes. Who's the other one with the one with the red hair? wonderful. Oh, Kayla, dead man. Oh, fabulous. Yeah, because they're good friends, aren't they, these two? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And how in the late seasons, especially in 3 and four, they're suddenly being given a lot more to do in a lot more opportun- It almost like, right, you stuck around, and for that one shot, and sooner as one, we're going to reward you with some material. given a lot more to do, to be fair. They are given something to do, which is kind of nice, given that they started their job as basically scenery, I think, with their original role. Yeah, yeah, yeah. thought she was good. And I thought her conversation with Taka was good. I think you've done to me what I often do to you on entire Star Trek. And that is, you gave me unrealistic expectations going into this. I was expecting like a high energy, crazy quirky location. And what I actually got was a gentle character tale. Um, so maybe maybe I'm the problem. Maybe, you know, maybe my expectations are the problem here. But it wasn't unenjoyable. Yeah, the other thing too, is that we've done a series one episode in a series 2 episode of Discovery that we're a bit crap, because whenever you do discovery, it is part of an ongoing story, each season tells an ongoing story. And so we did a series one episode that was set in the mirror universe that was like the dullest episode of the season. boring. Which should have been great. Well, but because they have the sort of daytime soap opera structure of just moving everyone's plot on a little bit. And the thing that this series, I think, gets right, that series 4 gets right is that it does that and that's what the Hugh and Paul scene is for, I think, in this episode. It's what DS9 was doing in those last 10, isn't it? It is inching everything along. Whilst it's doing that, some episodes are going to have big moments like Butter Connected. Another episodes are, are going to be, I'd be quieter and sort of a less, less assuming than that. But this is an episode with a focus. Do you know what I mean? It is about the tour of the meeting at this casino and us discovering something a little bit more about the 10 C. And so the thing that this series does is while it does have ongoing plots and stuff, it still manages to give each episode a distinct arc and that's not something that the discoveries we've watched have always managed to do. So you know, you told me there's sort of this huge fracture in Star Trek fandom with discovery, and some people embraced it, but quite a few people have just sort of pushed away from it. I can imagine them watching this and going, what the hell is this? Fun with a casino and all these character scenes. And then at the end, when they're all together talking about the DMA, they're like, oh, thank God, you know. We're back into Star Trek again. Well, you see, I think I think when Discovery came on, I was ready for something really very new and was absolutely on board with all of the kind of changes they'd made because we'd had... Well, it's, at this point, it's, you know, things have got messy and it's been retooled halfway and all of that sort of thing. But I don't watch it all that often because, you know, I'm watching one Star Trek a week for this. And coming back to it, I always just sort of feel, yeah, I like this world and I like these people. And it was that scene that you mentioned with Saru and Michael and just how much this crew loves each other, I think, is really something. And so I was sort of, I was happy to be back. I mean, I will say to no, Star Trek fans, just before we press play. you know, this is an episode where they're chasing dilithium which features poker and has an enormous space anomaly as the you know, the big threat of the season. So this is probably the most TNG is season of discoveries you're ever going to get. Or should we watch it? Yeah, I think we should. Alright. That's the thing about when I'm a bit unimpressed by it. Then I know I'll get to talk to you about it, so I'm going to have a much better experience of it, you know, the 2nd time. All right. I'll count it in. Five, four, three, two, one. And we're off. Oh, is this before or after the, you know, the great logo? It's before we get the logo. So look at book ship, how disassembles in space for literally no reason, except it's really cool. The difference between that and a matter of time is... I mean, look at this anomaly compared to a Mac. I know. Suddenly we're in a period where they can light things. Yeah, yeah. And they can, they sort of, you know, they, the techno babble can be illustrated with diagrams for our benefit. Not like the diagram that showed that the drilling sites and the volcanic eruptions happen at the same place. Could you love it as well? We'll get there. They get straight to a bloody point at the end where they're talking about the Techna babble and there's a few lines of Tech. And then she goes, oh, great, it's just like mining equipment. I was like, thank you. Yeah, there we go. We'll get down to my level. Thank you. We got a little shot of Gray and Adira, and they're gone, of course. They're not in it either. Why are they excised all the best characters? No, I think people leave. Do you know what I mean? And that's one of the things that happens with this show is it more than any other version of Star Trek has a really fluid cast. Do you think that's another objection people have? Like, you know, those people that like the one crew. But it was never realistic. Like, that was part of the problem. He's like, we're all just going to sit here, we will all be doing the same jobs for 7 years. Strange New Worlds has managed to keep it up pretty well in 2 seasons. Well, it's only had 20 episodes. I hope it has 200. Yeah, I do too. Look at this. I love Federation HQ. You don't even know what you're looking at. It's amazing out the wall. What's that? Where he is now. Is that a set, or is that? That's a set. I don't think that's the ball. That's what a curves an effect, yeah. It's amazing. It's beautiful. And, you know, they they use the hell out of it. And they reuse it for other things. The thing that makes me sad is, right, it's very impressive. In 20 years time, we'll be looking at this going, just like we do with 90 Star Trek. Looks so cheap. Look how cheap this looks. back before we used our VR sets, you know, to be immersively in Star Trek. So, I actually like the scene and the reason I like I partly like the scene because they are standing in front of a table that has no legs, but like no fucking reason except that we're in the 30s. And tables float in the air now. It can't have little jets coming out underneath, little puffs of steam. No, no, that's not how it works. It just stays there. So, but I like that she actually gets to say what we were saying which is like, you, you're a bit crap because it's your boyfriend who's gone off to kind of destroy, you know, your plans. How can you not have known about? And so they're both getting a dressing down here. The way she works it is, you know, I can understand how in a professional capacity that you may not understand, you know, that he was going to go off and do this. But you, you had a personal relationship. You were banging him, for God's sake. How did you not know? yeah, yeah. I love her. I call her the Admiral Nachev of the new iteration of Star Trek. She has a sort of peculiar space way of delivering her dialogue sort of very, very earnestly. Yeah, we we saw her last time, obviously, in that very speechy, but to connect, where they're making their political case, and she's a very political animal. We've seen her on the bridge of discovery butting heads with Michael and stuff before. Race is she? Oh, so she actually tells us that she is part Cardassian and part Bajoran. Oh my word. Yeah. Things have no dolphin. Well, that's it. But that's why she's president of the Federation. That why the Federation's important. She kind of embodies the Federation in a way. And so you can see it in the makeup. Do you know what though, right? Don't come with me here. I do wonder if to start off this new half season, we should start running and not with a 5 minute dialogue scene. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, maybe, maybe. But I mean, yeah, yeah. We had our exciting last time on. But I think now they do the, as well as the previously on, they'll do the, you know, last week, when this happens, yeah, yeah, yeah. So there are... That wasn't 5 minutes, though. More than a little touch of 90s trick going on there. But, you know, like, I like Star Trek, because I like people showing around in rooms. Yeah, so he's stolen a spore drive, and so the ship has a spore drive, and it's that weird programmable matter, and I discovered something about him because he's from Riser, of course, Taka. And it always makes me think of his flat here is without seeing riser. Do you know? See the cup thing on his forehead? Vanessa Williams. Oh, no, she did, yeah. You should have a hawk on on him as well, you know. You seek Jamahara. In fact, I wouldn't mind seeing Jamaha right between this pair. Yeah, yeah, with pork. Why not? So why, sorry, you're going to have to catch me up because it's been a while since we've won a bunch of chicken. Why is Taka pissed? Was his planet destroyed as well? We don't know. And what is it? Yeah. We will find out in the 2nd half of the season in a series of flashbacks, but we will also kind of find out because Joanne talks to him. Joanne Oa Shakun talks to him when they're in the casino. Do you remember he says, can you stand somewhere else you're boring me now? And that's because she's right. She guesses what his problem is, we don't know, but Joanne works it out this episode. You just love somebody like that on the Enterprise in Nani's Trek. Will you stand over there, please? You are boring me. yeah I do like that about discovery. You have these very curt, very blunt characters like this. Yeah, yeah. Well, and this, so he's obnoxious. Do you know what I mean? Because he's the smartest man in the room and he was, he was working for Asira, I think. So we did see him as far back as the end of series 3 when we watched the, you know, that episode. Um, And so all this conversation seems to be about the fact that we don't have any isolenium. Is that what we're using? I think that's Al McGuffin. It's a sort of subgenre of dilithium, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And it is going to run the bomb. So we have to get the isolenium. And so he's sexy Admiral Vance. here to tell Michael. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And this is the thing that book doesn't predict. look at the lighting here. It's so good. It is great. But it is still a lot of talk. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. But I'm just, remember, this is a show that gave us a 15 minute sequence between Burnham and that fabulous green woman at the end of series 2, fighting, non-starfighting. They can do it. Yeah, they'll be action. There'll be action, but that's not what this episode, it's for. In this? There's not any action in this, is there? Not really. I mean, there's there's Joanna wailing on that hot guy. Oh yeah, that is a great scene. I love, I love, I don't know why. I don't know what this means. I just love in fiction watching women beat up, man. It's great. Well, in fact, that's one of the things that I think this show does really well. And one of the most shocking moments, I think, for me is in season one where they're in the turbo lift and they're on the person that she's with in the turbo lift, a man. I think is someone that she served under or was served with on the Shenzhou, but someone that she recognises a nose immediately, even though he's the mirror universe counterpart, and she has to kill him. She has to fight him to the death in the turbo lift. And it's really visceral. And just the fact that having a man fight a woman like that would be absolutely unthinkable. Even in 90s Star Trek, the only example I can think of is um, 7 hitting, hitting the rock. Um, no, Kira beats up loads of men. She beats up Tamar. She, she beats up um, uh, Rossot. Do you remember in the last 10 episodes? Oh, yeah, yeah. But it's never quite as visceral and bloody as this version. Just go the other way, though, as well, because my most shocking moment in series one is where that dreadful Tory from Battlestar Galactica got eaten. Do you remember? was so great. I mean, she was a terrible character. She deserved to be Ian. Yeah, she was awful. Everyone on discovery when we 1st arrived on discovery. Paul is an asshole. She's horrible. Like, locker is kind of a weirdo. It's, uh, it's a horrible place. can I make a point once again about the talkiness? I've got a point here, though, is that now I can't hear the dialogue, yeah? All I'm seeing visually is a lot of people standing around... Yeah, that is 90s trek. I mean, that is what we've been doing for the last few weeks. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And actually, talking about, you know, the very violent moments in series one. I prefer this version of discovery before I want to caveat that but it's sort of, it's lost that age, hasn't it? A little bit. I agree. Yeah. Yeah. I liked, I, I was unhappy with some of the decisions that they walked back at the beginning of series 2 and they were the swearing. I like the swearing on Star Trek because it makes them seem less like space people. And I liked the gore a bit more because it was a little bit more visceral and moved away from the daytime TV thing. special occasions now, don't they? Like the end of last episode. There was one last fuck as well, I swear, in Picard. Oh, picant? Yeah. Do you remember? Yeah, yeah, they gave him to, he got the chance to say fuckers Picard once just before. Patrick was like, please, just let me do it one time. Can I just? These titles and this music. Holy crap. And the closing music this week was really good as well. They do different versions of the theme. Here we go. Here's another scene, we're standing around, but it is illustrated. It is, yes. And it is our crew. It's Stamitz, Saru, and Burnham, who I really like at this point. It did take me a long time to come around, but I do really like it. Oh, Stamitz was horrible. No, no, no, no. Oh, I love it. I always love Savage, in fact. The more of a prick is, the more I like it. But there's a scene coming up where, you know, the 2 of them where Michael and Saru are just together and he says, you know, make sure you're okay. He goes above everything. Yes. Be careful. Yeah. He's so good. He should have stayed as captain. I think he's the best captain in Star Trek history. Because he's not... He didn't have long, did he? No, he only had that year instead of acting captain. And obviously, if Michael's the main character, you kind of have to make her the captain, I guess. I think we've hit on something there, you know, because that's another thing that's sort of been fluidic about this show is who's in charge. I think that might be one of the central issues with that corner of such a fantom that don't like this, is that they're so, they're so built around the 90s trek model of that's our crew and it should be Stanley episodes and all that. And just don't obey none of those rules at all. Even compared to even compared to the other Kurtzman shows, though which generally stick to the main characters. This is something completely different. Well, characters move in and out of the show all the time and and... Yeah. Well, when it started, well, it's the one that's experimental. It's the one that's trying something. DS9 encouragement, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. Strange New Worlds is brilliant and often better than this. But it's not more, it's not... It's ambitious. experimental well. It's done the crossover and it did the musical and it's doing the gone. It does things that are surprising. But those are things that he's good. I mean, in terms of Star Trek, this is the most ambitious. Yeah. Or maybe the most unusual. Yeah, yeah. But because it's kind of making its mistakes in, you know, like in public in all sorts of ways. some experience of that myself, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I'm looking forward to seeing what they finally bed down to. If it's what you're saying. We can see it's a long heist. You know, that would be amazing. they're going to be awesome. We've basically just got to have fun because it's the last year. This is great. Yeah, this is wonderful. It's so good. And look how good, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. Like, under that latex as well. And look what they've done. The latex is much more expressive than the 90s latex. It gives him more scope to move his facial features than, say Renee ever God. And he really uses it. I think he's really good. I got very confused here because I'm currently watching neighbours as well, where one of the main characters is called Haz. So I thought Maz Canata, who runs the bar in The Force Awakens, was who I thought of, but has Mazaro here. It's called a karma barge. And I think the 2nd time we hear that, someone goes, oh, like karma barge, really? Like what? And listen to the way that has speaks all the way through this episode, it's magic. talks are so funny. those wrinkly looking Ferengis. What the hell are they done to the design? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you know, do you remember when we watched alliances in a series 2 Voyager? And they went to that bar. It was lit just like this. What sort of yellow lighting? Yeah. Yeah. It is very kind of standard, isn't it? It's obviously a bigger set. And I do, I like the, the, the, the, WWE fighter. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, I don't know. It could be a bit more exotic, I think, than it is. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's it is a bit standard, I think. It's a bit starter-sy, right? This man in his latex. So yeah, this is like, this is, and I love that where he just opens his arms and the things appear. Like you can do magic now because it's the 32nd century and I love all of that. And I think this, like, this makeup has to stand up to high definition and pretty serious close-ups and stuff. And they're only using it the once. I think it is. There's been a lot of latex though. Yeah, oh, yeah, yeah. He looks a bit like the fella from in the pale moonlight. He looks a bit like a prey and mantis's head. the way it sort of goes out like that. don't know. Again, that weird thing where they say his filters were taken, book books excuse for Taka's behaviour is that his filters were taken by cognition pirates, and you kind of go, what the fuck is that? That just sounds incredibly weird and awesome. Cognition pirates. Yeah, I know what a cognition pirate. That's a story now, I think, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. it's pretty great I like the fact that he says to book, you know, I'll give you what you want, but it's got to cost you a lot more than that. And then Michael comes along and he goes, I'll give you what you want, but it's going to cost you. You know he's literally every single person, isn't he? Yeah. And so now we have the old score to settle, which, um, so, oh that's... This as well. That is so 90s straight. That's so TNG going into a bar and going, oh, yeah. I've heard last time I've said it with you. yeah this guy might not. And so what it was, and it actually matters because it reminds us of what he's doing here. So, you remember we saw him and he had transworms in his, in his ship, way back at the beginning of series one and he was rescuing these sort of ugly worms and then bringing them to his planet Quajon to live in a sanctuary. And this guy was dealing those worms and and Booker beat the shit out of him and stole them, stole them back. And that's what the thing is. And remember that, that he was trying to save them when we 1st see him, he's saving animals in a sanctuary. And now, what does he want to do? He wants to prevent the DMA from killing any more people. Do you know what I mean? It's the same kind of thing. So it's a, see this jab a Brussel fly, and I'll scoot some green bread, and you can't say, wait, what? You know, like everything that he says. He says something about his, like, a Cardassian who's missing the cake or something. Like it's like, what? Those special effects shot of them go through this vortex. It looks like it's jumped straight out of the motion picture doesn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But it, it's so, but it looks like a, look. I mean how much more animated it is. Yeah, than those gentle things that go past the window in Star Trek, the Next Generation. Well, and we'd be bumping around a bit, wouldn't they? They be shaking the set. Yeah, that set is so stunning. Like, that's the great thing that midway through. They decide, screw it. We going to make the federation look completely different now and they really sell it. I mean, it looks so good. I like the why that, you know, all the sort of federation sets. It's a sort of clinical white, which then they light interestingly. Because I think things got a bit, a bit dark words. Remember how gray they got in Enterprise. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But even the lighting's quite dim on the bridge of discovery as well. This shuttle going across the water. And you've got the... It doesn't look great. Dragging in the distance or whatever. Jumping out of that. I just thought, oh, that's the same monster. I'd forgotten there's a same monster, miss. What is it? I think that could be a murker, you know. And then the shuttle goes straight down the hologrammatic mouth. In its mouth. And you know, like, I'm being critical about how this looks. That is the most visually interesting thing, I think, in the whole episode. Yeah, it looks great. So good. But remember, she goes karma barge. you know, why is it so stupid but we already kind of know that because we've heard Maz talk and just how sort of strange and weird he is. I think it's really funny how they put in sort of your stock Star Trek aliens into this casino. You have got an Andorian in there and a Ferengi, but they can't be asked to make up everybody. So some people are wearing cloaks. Some people have caught things over their mouth. They can't afford it. Yeah, that's right. That's right. We need to save some money for the rest of the season. I love how he greets her. So her nickname is right hook. He's glowworm, she's right hook. she does get to punch someone in the face later, which is pretty great. And when she's around the poker table. It's as fun as she has ever been. I like her when she pull her away from Starfleet a bit and all that sort of seriousness and just let her be a person doing things her own way. She's great fun. It was the curse of series 2 when they discovered that she could really act and really sell emotion. They just decided, oh, now it's my mother and now it's this, and you know, I believe there was a rewrite on one episode, but hang on, you haven't put in the scene where C Club stares off camera. Come on now. There you go. I've missed you like a Cardassian Mrs. Cake. What is that? I don't know, but apparently Cardassians like cake. It's Canon. In the future, maybe. Give a man a tour back and you're warm in the desert, he says. Like just all of these sayings are so ridiculous. So fantastic. He is he is a fun character. But these scenes are sort of a lot of nothing, aren't they? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like we're getting to we are still getting to the place where we need to get it, aren't we? And he, he's a, yeah. Yeah, it's very cool watching her, you know, beating that guy up in the ring. But again, that's we're just sort of slowly moving this on to where we... That's a very odd sequence. Like it's an action sequence and there's... fights are cheap. Fist fights are cheap to realise as far as action goes. And so maybe we're doing it for that reason. I might have sat down in the writer's room and gone. a lot of talk here. We need some action Yeah, yeah. What are we going to do? Well, she's there. Why don't we just have a... Do we know Joanna something to do? Yeah, exactly. I don't know what they're talking about here. I can't remember, but Oo has, there was something. I like the very relaxed chemistry between those 2 actresses. Yeah. Well, I just like the very relaxed chemistry between all the crew now. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a thing that we never had before except on Deep Space 9 and now it's the new normal. Look what they do, really. They doing all the things they don't do in 90s trek. some dry ice pumping around the set. and they've got windows with light coming in, you know? Yep, yep. Yep. And it, and so that, is that a Zindia insectoid? You could probably give it that reading. I don't think they look like that, but in the future, maybe. Oh, they had much bigger eyes, didn't they? They had like big fly eyes. This isn't sort of the most canteen-ish Star Trek scene we've ever seen because I think they have done better. But it's enough. there's enough here Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So here, look, so here we actually made. And we get the scene that we never thought we would get to have. And this, you know, like we just... How did you find me? Like, you're kidding me, right? Like you're really asking that? And I ask you a question about how attractive people are in Kersman Trick. Oh, because is it that they are more attractive than the people that are in 90s trek? Or, as in this scene, is it that they just like them in such a spectacular way that they look even more beautiful? Oh, both, I think. Look how he's lit there. Yeah, yeah. It's just beautiful. Just, yeah, yeah. I think, like, I think it has become more important in the last 30 years for people on TV to be pretty. Don't you think? It's kind of a shame, isn't it? It's a shame because I feel like we were... But we recall a bit if they're not attractive people all the time. When I'm on tell, when I'm watching telly. There are people with talent. There are run of tracks here. Don't wash Downton Abbey then. in a lot of trouble, yeah. No, but I'm super happy to see that everyone on Star Trek is very attractive now and that's a good thing and gosh, David Ajala is so pretty. And I'm not throwing shade when I say this. That's why I really liked Tilly, who I don't think is unattractive. But she's not a supermodel and she is overweight. And I think that's really refreshing to say. No, I agree. She's still kick arse and beautiful, you know. And she was normal. She was like a normal, real person that you might know. That seems, remember, in the Harry Mudd episode where she's at the party and she's got the boobs and she's like, come on, everybody. She likes soldiers now. We always get illusions to that. Picard was a rebel when as a kid. Cisco and Curzon, but we never actually see it in 90s. No. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, so she's not been able to persuade him. And now she's trying to, I'm a Banta tree either way. What exactly? The thing is that because of the way the conversation goes, you understand exactly what he says. You know what I mean? Like, there's nothing you're never there really going, oh, like what does that mean? It's not in context, absolutely. I don't know what they're called. Tamarian, Darmokian from Lower Decks. Talks only in metaphor. Yeah, that's hilarious. So look at this hot guy. Now, he's not a wrestler. The guy who's credited, he's actually not credited, but he's called beefy guy, the bodyguard who... Yeah, beefy guy is the bodyguard. It's robot. That comes into that. This is great fun. It's a dot. Yeah. He's just trying to polish the place. But do you notice that go back to your dock or whatever? Like it's a room bar? I've got to say, you know, like the last episode, this was probably my favourite scene in the episode. I'm really invested in this pair of characters. I think, I think, you know, it's sort of where, wherever your investment is, that's where your heart is in the episode. Yeah. Well, I the thing that I really like. So this is, again, just retelling us what happened last, like, 6 weeks ago with COVID, but this thing where he says, I'm responsible for the psychological and emotional health of everyone on board this ship, and Paul goes, you've got to be kidding. Like, is that, is that? Is that what you think? That's what I say to her, Rory Dax, you know, when she takes the job as counsellor. Cisco goes, I want you to take a good look around this room. You've just agreed to take on the psychological problems of everyone. That's right It's a point worth making. But I mean, this scene doesn't really have anything to do with the rest of the episode, does it? It is just here to give huge... I love about the characters, though, is this just isn't stressed as a gay relationship. It is a normal relationship that just happens to be between 2 men going for all those things. And even today in television. I think they still stress. the word gay, you know? And it's just the way it's normalised here in Star Trek. Again, I think it's another reason why people have issues with this show. Yeah. Well, and like we just said, Gray and Adira get mentioned, Gray is back on trill, you know, um, Is Adira around? I can't even remember. But this, I love this, let's be terrified together. Yeah that's great. And now we're going off to the holiday deck to go for a walk in a flower meadow and like... This basically is TNG now, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And look, I just... In fact, remember how we... We always make the Discovery DS9 parallels. Yeah, like the 2 black sheep of their iterations of Star Trek. Yeah, yeah. Cold War is the wayon of discovery. Oh, no, we've killed him off. That was a terrible mistake. him back. And now the dot, now that these bastards have gone, now the dot can get on with his vacuuming. There's more on. Is that Mark Shepherd? Mark Anna Shepard. No, I don't know. We have had one of his races well in series 3 episode one, I think. Oh, no, isn't there a load of them in an action sequence? Yeah, yeah, I think so. I like the idea that there's always a mourn propping up a bar. Yeah. But like Joanne and Michael just together touching heads and stuff you know, there's there is just real love in this crew, which I think is so great. I'm going to make an unfavourable comparison to Voyager, though now, I'm afraid, because it looks so much more interesting than can't see. Because they literally, they run up the walls. When did you last watch? They run up the walls and they've got crazy lighting going on in some car seat. This is just a box standard boxing ring. Yeah, I know, but it is beautifully shot, though, and beautifully lit. beautiful people, isn't it? And holy crap. shit out of him. He really thinks he's got the better of her as well, doesn't he? Look, he picks her up for his head. Yeah, yeah, no, she loses instantly. Like, he picks her up and then drops her. There's no rules, but if you land on the ground, and she's she's kind of okay. Like, she's up pretty quick, I think. They should have done what they did in Suncastle. You know, when they brought in the rock. They should have had a like a real sports announcer from now. So he's cur. He's not a boxer. He must be an underwear model or something. Look at him. I mean, for God's sake. Wow. They do have some insanely hot man in discovery. Look at him. Look at him smiling and laughing at him. I don't care about saying it because I know there's that demographic definitely listens to this podcast. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But look, look, there, there. You've got some proper aliens there with sort of rubber heads and stuff, not just latex guys, but like proper Star Wars aliens, which we're finally starting to get. But we still haven't quite got to the point. No, no. Yeah, yeah. They keep focussing on that one that blinks. He blinks. Get him in shot. But isn't that because he's the changeling? Yeah, oh, that, no, sorry. Actually, that's the other moment, which I thought was visually great. Shriveler becomes a changeling is great. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we said when we saw Amanda Plummer and the and the changeling in that episode in the worst no win scenario episode of Picard that what they went for is that the, in their natural form, the change things are kind of raw chicken meat. But that's not what we do here, is it? What we do is they're kind of like particles that reform. Like it's a, it's a different effect, a different way of looking at them. But I liked that they were here because, you know, this is the 32nd century. It's so great, isn't it? They can take all these established races, but make up their own rules. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's so fun. I'm going to make a comparison again. I know I do this a lot. Even when we watched Batterbag, Batterbag, and that camera was swooping about all over the place. And we were going, my God, some energy and excitement. Yeah. I saw I'm missing here. And that's unusual for discovery. You know, Jonathan Frakes usually has a drone zooming about the place. Where's the drone? This is this is not shot like 90s trek at all. Like, there's no shot here that you would have done on 90s track. Just look at how... But it doesn't... Yeah, maybe that's right. Maybe it takes a while. I'm afraid to direct this one. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. some more Latinum. I think before we start in production, Jonathan break goes, wow what is the latest technology we've got to shoot things. I'm using Yeah, yeah, yeah. Have you got more drones for me? If you're more drones for me. Someone should teach you to quit. someone should teach your friend some manners. That's great. And he's laughing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, and being pretty and he's got an ugly, ugly manager. So there you go. Um, there's that. Look at her, look how confident she is. So wonderful. She is something very hot about strong, confident women, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, and she's super sweaty, and now she's just going for his dick, and that's just kind of... How to emasculate a man in 2 seconds. the face, Joanne. just leave the face I'll nurse his wings as long as you don't know his face. Oh, she just kicked him. She kicked him right in the nose. Have you ever been kicked in the nose? It is agonising. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, punching the throat. There we go. And down he goes. On you, Joe. I'm going to throw in a top 2 reference here. Are you getting Zoe on the carcass vibes out of this? No, it's Joanne. Oh, wo. Oh, wow. Oh, wokus sagoon. I can't even say that. No. Oh, wow. It's what I should be showering. They're so gorgeous. That's wonderful. Yeah, that was fun. That's what this episode needed. I can see why it's there. Yeah, that's clearly why it's there because I was kind of wondering why does no character thing happen. This woman is wonderful. She's so deadpad, isn't she? And like she's got a giant tray of latinum and she says, do you want a bag because there's more? She's like, I've got 3 lines. I'm going to make him count. Yeah, yeah, she really does sell it. She's awesome. That, I want one of those knives. I don't really, because I don't want to stab anyone, but like the knife that just appears in your hand via, yeah, here we go. Right hook. Here we go. Right hook, Captain right hook of Starfleet. But they help one another, and now, so she, so he helps her. Now she's going to rush off and help him. So they're here competing to get the money for the isolenium, but they can't stop helping one another because they work so well together. The effects are changing now. It's basically like sand, isn't it, falling? It like sand. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But look, she's got an Odo face. Look, look, look. Yeah. Yeah. I like the fact that that's a bit throw away. That's not what this episode is about, but you do see it changing isn't it? It's just a nice detail. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, they did it better in Picard series 3, obviously. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, they probably... Happiness, Amanda Plummer. I know. good. Oh, isolenium. I know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But it is a, you know, like it's a McGuffin. Do you know what I mean? And Jesus Christ, if I was criticising that, I would never watch Star Trek ever. Star Trek again, they're all... That's basically why they go. And so now we have. Did you see that line? He goes, yes, well, now that's done, you can get back to your relationship, whatnot. What not? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's pretty great, isn't it? And so here is where it climaxes. And we, they still can't stop helping one another, even at this point when they're up against one another. They're in love. It's winner takes all. Yeah. But also not just that they're in love, but they work so well together on the, you know, it's the natural state. They just fall into this thing after years of experience or more than a year's experience. There's a good, strong, dragic idea to take this relationship that works like gangbusters and then put something... That's what you know, which they cannot reconcile about. Yeah, that's a good idea. It's a good strong idea. I'm not sure. I would have sacrificed an entire episode to get to this point, but it's a good idea. Well, I've been having fun. Do you know what I mean? It does look pretty. I'm sort of happy. These miserable bastards as well, they get no lines. We can't pay for them to talk and they're, what are they doing? They, um, they, they, they're members of the, uh... Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Oh, isolenium. How many times shall I say that word in this episode? Oh, yeah, well, it is the McGuffin. So it's the thing that powers the bomb, of course, and she only wants it so that he can't get it. Um, is the idea. Is there not much of it about then? Yeah. Yeah. And so this, Schaefer colony. And there's a really funny story. She tells the story of what happened in Schaefer Colony and she says, I knew a man on Schaefer Colony and he got involved in a poker game and he lost and he had to walk home in the emperor's new clothes. And that's the point at which we realised she's actually talking about book, having to walk home naked from a poker game, and she says, not that anyone was complaining. Now that's how you do those sort of dialogue scenes and stuff. Yeah, so it's, it's, you know, introduced here and then it's settled. So this scene here is the scene where she does the thing. This is where she wins because she knows that she can't beat Booker at poker. Like it's something stupid poker, is it? Leonard Poker or something like space poker. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So she can't win, but she can do this. And so she's put a thing, a technology that's already been established. She puts a little thing on the isolenium so that she can now track booker. So even though she doesn't leave with him, she does actually find him and make there be a way of finding him. She's doing the Penny Johnson thing from Banabang here at the poker table where she's just relaxing into this role and loving it. She's really funny. Really? Really? Really? Did you hear? Did you hear what has said a minute ago as well? It goes, oh, no. I've never been much for love. I do hope it works out between the 2 of you. I feel like that that sort of character, but they've lost now haven't they? It's the Shaw show. the Tilly. It's the person that sort of cuts to the chase. Yeah. I think this is a good guess character to have involved. they're all back in series series 5, are they? I don't know whether Giorgio is, but I think Tilly is probably back, at least for some of her. At least, you know, turn up. Yeah. Look how much fun she's having. But I mean, it's the contrast, doesn't it? She's having a lot of fun and then it gets serious. Yeah, yeah. And it's it is partly a ploy because they are still kind of trying to ensure that those 2 don't get the isolenium, I guess. Yeah, this is it. Only to go home in the, in the, on the emperor's new clothes. Not that anyone was complaining. She looks right at him when she says it and he looks away. And it lands in a way that all those jokes we've been talking about in 90s trek didn't. Because they weren't even jokes, you know? An actual joke. It's not a non- joke, you know? But a camera doesn't sort of linger as well, you know? are you laughing? There's a woman sitting around the table with very heavy eye makeup who looks desperately bored by the whole thing. The man has very heavy iron, man. But he doesn't, I think is kind of hard. Look how it looks wryly amused by the whole thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Extra watching. It's always a lot of fun. Yeah, he's cute that extra though. Look at him. He's very pretty. This doesn't look like the most fun game in the world though, does it? Well, poker never does. I never understand it. No, I know to play poker, but... It's the fun is who you're playing with, not the game itself. Another callback to the Schaefer colony. Oh, now we're moving it up. We're dropping the odd frame. Oh, look, we're giving signals very obvious signals to each other. She yours. I love how she yours. But they know each other. Do you know what I mean? Like they can just read the signals they're sending each other so we don't even need to be told that they're going to send signals. We just see shots of them and their reactions. And did you notice the ending nails? to their eyes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, it's a thing that Star Trek, 90 Star Trek is almost never brave enough to try and do. It never relies on us being able to work. to suck stuff out visually. Subtext and stuff like that. Yeah. So I think this conversation is really properly good. And so this is why Joanna's here, I think. And he's immediately contemptuous of because he's kind of contemptuous of everyone, but also she's been in a fist fight and she's just a lieutenant commander at Starfleet. Do you know what I mean? And so he asked her what, she thing. And she says she understands him. Yeah. And and she works out what it is. Because... Because what happens at the end of this episode is that we discover that something very terrible is about to happen, and it's not the terrible thing that Taka and book fear. It's the terrible thing that we are going to provoke this incredibly powerful group of people. And she knows that that's a risk and she's deduced that he's doing it because someone's died, right? Um, But it's not revenge, and it's not the same thing that book is doing, which is trying to prevent it from happening again. It's this, keeping a promise maybe to someone who died, and then he says, okay, go away, you're boring me. And we find out what it is later and I think it's surprisingly touching. and weird and beautiful. You can choose for something good to come out of this, she says. I lie. Yeah. But I like what he says. He says, my loss was so great that I don't get that choice. If you could feel the log of mine, even for a fleeting moment you'd reconsider how much of a choice with regards to what comes out of it. Yeah, and I think that sort of, again, that kind of dialogue is never get it. It's very, very well. Yeah. I'm just so vanished. so used to discovery sort of painting its moments big and white melodramatic and this is all very subtle. Mm, yeah. But I think that's deliberate. I think, you know, I like that approach. So we get it done too much. Maybe they're learning, they don't have to make a fuss all the time to make a point. Yeah. Yeah, we don't have to have Michael sort of staring into the camera with her eyes welling up. This is the best moment in the episode, though, where she says to her, isn't she, about walking away? And he's like, yeah. I'm walking away. Yeah, but this every bridge, every bridge including the bridge between RC asks and she... What does she say? Yes, they'll send me after you. Yeah. So this is it. You know, like if you win now, you have the choice to win or not to win. And he she knows that it's his choice because she can't win against him. And so this is the choice. And he looks her in the eye and makes the choice. Well, she's giving him the choice. It doesn't have to be like that. Yeah. No, we can end this. Let's end this. And he's, let's end this. And she says, all right, let's end, he says, all right, let's end this. But they mean the opposite thing. I'll never say that to you about untitled Star Trek Project, you know. I just how stricken she looks because that's it. She she gives him the opportunity to remake that choice and he makes it. And the dialogue is clever. You know, like there's, it's smart. Look at him. He's so beautiful. It's a good moment. It is. And she, like, she's not, she's not, she's giving it to him, isn't she? She's letting him have it. And I think because she has that backup. But she's looking at him because she knows what he's going through as well. Like, you know, this, he's not being selfish. He's not. You know, he suffered great loss and and we've had that conversation about what loss does to your ability to make a choice and then we get the scene of him making the choice and the loss that he experienced is so great. You get a lot to do in three. Are they are they redressing that here? I'm giving him lots to it for. I think he had a lot to do it. Well, yeah, I mean, because he's in this sort of weird position where he's just kind of, you know, the captain's fuck who's kind of... I don't really... I don't remember him doing anything at the end of 3 in that last episode we watched. No. Well, I'm assuming I'm assuming you get something to do at the end of four, given this whole midseason beer. all about him. Yeah. She's so good too, isn't she? And again, it's that American way of acting where you don't necessarily say exactly what you're thinking. It's that thing where you invite someone to think about what you're thinking. It's really good. She's just tremendous. I do wonder, though, you know, if, uh, if some of it is going to go over the head of some people watching it that I used to be in spoon fed watching television. Yeah, but I think I think in the last 30 years we've got better at watching TV. Do you know what I mean? Like I think that, and that's why this can afford to be like this. And I'm sure, of course, there is more subtle and cleverer television, this is Star Trek, but it's certainly more subtle and cleverer than it used to be. And I'm glad about that. I'm happy to go back and watch Star Trek from the 90s, but I'm glad there's a version of Star Trek now that is a little bit more rewarding, I think. Oh, so the 10 C. So amazing. Yeah, I'll be I'll be interested to see how that all pans out. Yeah, so this is great too, because the other thing is that Relax isn't dumb. She knows, she deduces exactly what happens. She knows, but what she doesn't realise is that Michael still won this one. Yeah. So she knows that Vance gave her permission to go and get book. Like, she deduces all of that. She doesn't need to... Again, it's not spelled out, is it? Yeah. We know. Well, she just sort of comes in. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. But this is being spelled out and now we're getting, and I think we knew, we must have known that she did something. Didn't, don't you think? That scene was so... But so she says it's the trackers that we used to use to trace the dilithium shipments. And so there's something that's already been introduced and look where she brings her hand up and ta-da. here's a galactic map of where he is right now. from one episode to the other. Let's go. I will say, though, I will say, because we've watched 3 from season 4 now. I currently remain unconvinced that because 2 of the 3 we've watched have been all right and one was really, really good. So I think I need to see more of how incredible this season can be. Because the prison one was just felt like a place villa. This feels like a getting from A to B. We've only got 13 episodes this year. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is what, episode eight? I mean, we've got 5 more or something after these. But each one is distinct. None of them have been terrible. Like they haven't been unwatchably bad, like that dreary Talos 5 episode we watched. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So this, again, like I really like this too. And partly it's because you've got relax there who doesn't understand what's going on. And also it's just like this thing is massive. This is a big field that we've noticed in that place. Remember that she was also there to get the star charts. So this is what she got from, uh, has the star charts. And it's big enough to, it's a structure that's big enough to contain an entire star system. So the scale of it is like nothing that's ever been mentioned before. Do you think they bring it down to such a sort of mundane description because she's there to make it easy for her? No, because we're watching. Well, yeah, I know, but that gives them a reason to do it as well though. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Can she be around in every scene then, please? But this, again, even if we don't get this, she works out, if something is missing where the DMA has turned up, and then both of them decide Bora night, and only then does Zora come in and say yes, there's no Bora night at any of the sides, and that's where she says, yeah, yeah, like whatever. And she decides that's where she learns that it's a, it's dredging. It's mining equipment. There is just enough tech bubble here, though, for me to be... Yeah, yeah, but of course you want technobabble. I think you want technobabble, but and this scene only exists to explain this point. Exactly. You know what I mean? Unlike that dreadful scene we saw in Voyager where they were looking for who was it? Who were they looking for? Fate in faces, B'lana. And it was just interminable amounts of techno bag were leading nowhere. But this is them discovering a thing as we discovered. It doesn't exist just to explain the plot to us. for them to find it out. We watch them working out what's happening and the implication. Anomally, she says it's mining equipment, yeah? So what is churning up the universe for what purpose? to get Boronite to maintain the energy needed to run that field. That's what they said. for? We don't know. We don't know what's in it. The answers are compelling. Yeah, yeah. Well, it's the tenator there, aren't they? Um, but, but notice too that immediately the person who says that Booker, that Booker and Tarker need to be stopped is Relak, the president, because she's a politician, and so she immediately gets the political thing. And so now what's happened is what book has done? He's had the chance to remake that decision. But we now know that that decision is a disastrously bad decision. Because now effectively the bad guy. Well, good reasons. Oh, no. No, no, he's not the bad guy, but he's doing something very wrong and he has to be stopped because he's poking something so powerful. He's planning to poke some. do you know what I mean? Like to, you know, strike out against something so powerful. Oh, they just spell this all out to him, explain all this. Well, I think they do try. Um, but yes. So we will find out. So we have to, we know where he is now. and we know where the 10 CR. Do you know what? exciting. What pleases me about all of this is that, you know, you and I did ask, we said we'd watch too many great episodes of Star Trek, too many terrible episodes of Star Trek, and we've had a mid-episode of Voyager faces, a mid-episode of DS9, the Muse. And I would probably say, this is a fairly mid-episode of Discovery. Yeah, I think it's better than either of those. No, no, no, it's better than those. But I think the bars higher. So on Discovery's terms. Well, that's right. This is kind of meat. Yeah, I'm hoping we do get something spectacular next time in either direction. Who knows? But, and I will say this again and again. was entertaining. It just didn't set my world on fire in a way that I I was expecting it to. Like I said, it's a gentle run-up. We had a massive, massive, massive cliffhanger and a massive break happen. And so this is like, like, you know, family or or something like that where we get the chance to just sit back and work out what all of that meant. And then we push the plot on in that final scene, to the next thing, where the status quo changes. And one of the things the rest of the episodes this season do, and there are 5 more, is each episode is a distinct step along the way to finding out what's going on and who the 10 C are. And the episodes follow on from one another, but each one has a very distinct arc. and works on its own in the way that, you know that one has an arc, something happens in that episode, and it's said in a particular place, and it's trying to do a particular thing, and it isn't one of those episodes where just everyone's subplot is inched long, 6 inches, and you can't really remember what it was about at the end of it. We do at least now know what that episode was about. What's odd about discovery is in today's television terms, 13 episodes is a long season, a lot of shows, you know, will do 6 episodes or 10, in Star Trek terms, given, you know, the wealth of Star Trek, there is. It feels like a short season, doesn't it? Because we're so used to 26 episodes. Well, was was season one like 17 episodes? It was really good. Season 5's 10, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. Yep. We're getting shorter. We go along. Yeah. Well, I think that seems to be the number of episodes they're doing for a season of everything now. And I think that's that's not bad. I think if the sacrifices that the money is spread and it looks as good as it does, because on the whole, discovery just looks stunning. I think that's a worthy sacrifice to make to make every episode a piece of cinema. Yeah, well, remember, when American TV was sort of churning out 26 episodes of everything a year, and then they would look across at British TV where seasons were like 6 episodes long or whatever, you know, that seemed ridiculous to the Americans. But of course, the great thing is that 10 episodes lets you reject a lot of dud ideas. And it also, I think, lets you structure a season a little, it's easier to structure a season. I hate the term filler to describe episodes. I think that no episode ever intends to be filler. I think it just ends up being filler, especially when it comes to Kursman Shrek, where every single episode has elements, as we keep saying, that pushes things along, you know? There's a character moment that's important to that character arc in the season. There's a plot moment that's getting us from A to B. Nothing is completely worthless. Not in a way that some standalone 90s strict episodes are. But that's the thing. They don't have the luxury of throwing stuff out. They've got to generate all of these ideas. They've got to basically put out an episode every 2 weeks. It's, you know, punishing and difficult, I think. But there is there is a downside to this approach. Well, and that is like, say, Picard series 2, where it's basically telling one story, isn't it? We're going back in time, we're doing all this thing. And then you have 3 or 4 episodes on the bounce, which feel very similar, you know, and you're like, well, what was distinct about that in the same location with the same characters essentially doing the same thing? You know? And it does mean that there are highs in these seasons, but it's usually where the big events happen, you know? Yeah, yeah. I think Picard, like Picard gets it right, I think in series three. And even though that's sort of in lots of ways less ambitious and less experimental than the other 2 seasons, it gets it right and it even tries it on hard mode. It like gives us episode after episode after episode on the Titan in the same situation, which we see resolved. Racking up the tension. Yeah, yeah. And that's not the end of it. Like, we are on the Titan for most of that season, and yet they kind of managed to make it work, and, and I think they just get good at it. And I think that's what happens in discovery series 4 as well. Like 90s track, it kind of is determined, your enjoyment. This episode is focussing on this character, how invested am I in this particular character. Because sometimes, you know, you can live and die on, whether you enjoy something, if it's someone you don't like, you know, or someone you're less interested in, then it's, you know, it's going to be a throwaway one for you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This wasn't throwaway, but I'm certainly not as invested as you are in Michael and book. So those scenes were all right. And then everything else around it is sort of leading up to and away from that moment. Yeah, yeah. It was good. It wasn't right. It was good. I think that's fair. All right, it's the end of the episode, and it is time for us to find out what we're going to be doing next time. It's my turn on the randomiser after Joe's excellent choice last week, and I am going to tell you what we're going to do. We've only done one of these before. We're going to do a short trek. So these are the 10 minute episodes of Star Trek that accompanied series one and two. I can't even remember how many there are of them, but we'll see how we go. There's a very weird wild variety of things. Okay, so your random Star Trek Short Treks episode is Ask Not, and I think that's the episode where Una and Spock meet for the 1st time on the Enterprise in the Turbo. Oh, strange new worlds. It is, so it's from season 2 because we've got Spock and Una in Discovery Series 2. But we're not going to do that one. That's season two, episode three. Season one, episode one is the 1st one. It called Runaway. It's a Tilly episode and it does actually play into series 2, but I'm not going to pick that one. Are you going for a particular one then? There's not many of these. No, I'm tempted by this one. The girl who made the stars season two, episode four. Super temper, but I'm not going to do it. Okay, this is one that I haven't seen. How about this? Why don't we do this? There's one episode four, the escape artist, and it stars Rain Wilson as Harry Maud. Okay. What if I don't know. Yeah, but it's about Harry Maud. Should we do it or not? Is that leading into that 1st discovery appearance of Harry Mount? I think it's after... Oh, I'm not sure. Oh, after he goes off with... that would be great. I don't know, but that would be great after he goes off with Mrs Mudd. The funniest episode. Yeah. Well, yes, Harry Martin. I think we should do it. No, I've pressed the button again. Oh, there's only 10 years. I know. This is the one we're doing. We're doing the trouble with Edward. Season two, episode two, 1st broadcast on Wednesday, the ninth of October. 2019. Yeah, I absolutely. And it stars John Benjamin. Very, very fun. Bob's Burgers. What do you reckon? I think we just do. that's a brilliant idea. Yeah, that's and it's hilarious as well. It is pretty great. It is pretty good. All right, let's do it. You've been listening to entitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford and Nathan Bottomley, where online at untitled Star Trek Project com, where you can find subscription links and links to our social media accounts. Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceran, and the theme was composed by Cameron Lam. This episode was recorded on the 13th of February 2024 and released on the 16th of February. We'll see you next time for Star Trek Short Treks, The Trouble with Edward. All right, what do you think? We should... roll... I need to run soon. So yeah, let's let's roll. It's known nearly 10. What is it? Nearly 10 o'clock. I think they start at 10, but I'll get there about... There's an episode coming up called the Galactic Barrier. Well, of discovery. And you're, yeah, no, just like it's 2 episodes from this one because they have to go outside the galaxy. And so there's the galactic barrier, which is in where no man has gone before. There's a big energy. Big energy thing around the galaxy, which is like super dumb and not real or anything like that. Um, and it's, it's from the 2nd ever episode. It's time, which, of course it is. I know, they just take any old crap, try and make it work. The galactic bar. We got to work within that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They could have ignored it easily if they'd wanted to, but they absolutely didn't want to, and I love them for that. Did you see the picture for a matter of time? On the website? I can't remember what it was. Well, I did see it because I took the to the link. Was it? It was in the shuttle, wasn't it? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, the shuttle with the with the hologchromatic wallpaper. They chose specially for you. Okay, one condition is, I know you're choosing this time, but the one condition is, it's even really terrible, it's great, all right? Okay. We can somehow find something.