Forget Me Not

Hey, Joe. Hi. Okay, so I think we have stretched the term randomiser to a ridiculous degree, so far, because there's been very little randomising going on. We've selected the series that we've wanted to and then chosen an episode through that. For once in the last episode. We put in every single series aside from the ones that we've already done commentaries on. And perchance, we happen to, upon Star Trek Discovery. Nathan, why don't you tell us what you think of Star Trek Discovery? So I am a really, really huge fan of Kurtzman Star Trek, this new kind of iteration of Star Trek that we're getting now with this sort of incredible suite of shows that we're suddenly getting. And, you know, it all began with discovery a few years ago. And I think that, like right from the get go, I was on board partly just because it was a kind of Star Trek that we really hadn't ever seen before. You know, Berman Trek is sort of solid and generally competent, but it has a very, very definite look to it and a very definite house style. And so it was nice seeing Star Trek on TV that didn't look like that. And then Discovery initially, at least, was an attempt to do a sort of show set in the Star Trek universe rather than just a Star Trek show. And I really appreciated that. And it had all sorts of other things going for it that I really enjoyed. But, yeah, so look, I am a huge fan of 90s trek and always will be. It's kind of my 1st trek love, and I'll always sort of go back there, but I'm absolutely delighted to be getting so much Star Trek that I haven't seen a 100 times and Star Trek that is doing stuff that Star Trek has never attempted to do before, I think. I think for me, there's a massive comfort in having that body of episodes from the 90s and going back and revisiting those. And like I'm one of those annoying fans. It's like, well, I don't want new stuff. I don't want to focus. want to watch new stuff and form new opinions. I like the fact that I've got the library to watch. I turned off discovery halfway through the 1st episode. Outrageous. during those interminable Klingon scenes with the subtitles on. I was like, oh, what is this? And then I did try and go back and watch it and I didn't really connect with series one and it wasn't until you and I started talking that and you were so positive about it and obviously gave a typically smart reading on it. Oh, I was like, okay, I'm going to go back. And we kind of almost went through series one and 2 together. And I found it deeply flawed, as you know. Yeah, um, and then sort of halfway through Series 3, I abandoned it again. However, I'm not here to dump all over Discovery. I think, okay, so I've written down 2 things, a good thing and a bad thing because I feel like I need to be balanced. So the thing that, Really, I can't get on board with is how discovery reinvents itself every year. I know it was originally supposed to be an anthology series, wasn't it? Set in different throne zones. That was the original idea. And they have kind of done that in a way, in that series one is, I feel like was is one of the boldest years of Star Trek ever, trying to do something completely different to what's come before, to the point where they didn't even have like the crew assembled until like episode four. They can have to ship in into episode three. And you watch the 1st couple of episodes. You've got no clue what this show's about. Which is kind of exciting, in a way. But not what I expect from Star Trek, which is probably why I was like, well, what is this? Um, and then series 2, it went down a mad nostalgia route, didn't it? Like it was, you know, pike, spock and, you know, number one and there couldn't have been more nostalgia. And then in season 3, they've skipped into the future, into the unknown, which is very exciting. Really, and I think that 1st half of Series 3 is really good as they are building, like this future that we don't know about, with the Federation gone and the existing wells in different, you know in different places, that's really, really exciting. But it means I can't get a handle on this show. Yeah. And I, you know, with DS9, with Next Generation, with Voyager. They kind of set their store in episode one and that's the show you know? Yeah, I'm not sure that Deep Space 9 is that because it has at least a kind of soft reboot in the middle and it does go to places that I don't think they anticipated it going kind of originally. And I acknowledge that the biggest weakness of discovery is that it doesn't quite know what it's doing. And because it's the 1st Star Trek for a long time and because it had significant kind of production problems. I adored series one and I thought series 2 was kind of an apology tour for series one where they kind of walked back all of the interesting things they did in series one. But I thought series 2 was still solid and enjoyable. And I remember reaching the end of series 2 and thinking they had better not be going into the future permanently or I'm going to be really cross. And of course, they did. And I think it turned out fine. And as we record, we're a few weeks away from the debut of series 4 and it looks like they're for the 1st time, series 4 is going to be set in the same kind of world that series 3 is set. So I think they found their groove, but it certainly taken them a while to sort it out. But a massive strength of the show. I think I think discovery is like the best example of how TV can look. Oh, God, it's cinematically good at times. In fact, I think sometimes it looks better than some of the movies you know? Oh, a lot of the time. Yeah, yeah I agree. Um, and I think it's the slowest of slow burns, go with me here. I have come to enjoy a lot of the characters. It took me a long time to get on board with this cast because I don't think you're supposed to like half them in series one. No, and I think there's something off putting about the main cast not being the bridge crew, and I think that that was a very definite choice. And so you have all of those people like Reese and Detmer and Bryce who are on the bridge, but they're not the characters that we're interested in following it all, and we barely know them. But even those, even those characters are, we, we're starting to get to know because like there's some scenes in this episode where where they're starting to give them a bit of depth. But as I think somewhere in series 2, that whole cast gelled really well. And you had, oh, no, I'm really happy with the name. Stamets, the redhead. I think he's really good. Tilly, okay, she annoys me a little bit. But she's really funny and really like engaging character. Um, Saru, who... Like, I can't believe he's not the captain anymore. Such a good captain. And you know my one big sticking boy, don't you? Michael Burnham. Oh, she is so good. Oh, she's a bowling. No, no, no. I think Sanequa is so charming and so beautiful and has like charisma that just shines off the screen. And I think they did lean into giving her a bit of, you know, weepy speeches thing in series two. which is a, yeah, yeah, which is a thing that can happen. But I think she's a great sort of charming anchor to the show and I'm hugely excited for series 4 to see what she does. Series 3 reinvents her character, I think. And, you know, there's a year, isn't it? that she's in the future before the rest of them. So she's settled and she's really at peace with herself and there's a relaxed charm about her that kind of wasn't there before. I remember and we haven't been watching Forget Me Not today. And in this episode, I think she's extraordinarily good. So, yeah, Michael Burnham. I think elements of her performance are sort of always there, but she is in a different, more relaxed place. I think you're right. So this is series 3, episode four, as you said, Joe, forget me not. And it was 1st broadcast on the 5th of November 2020. So, uh, very, very modern uh, compared to what we've been doing up till now. Do you think we should get going? Yeah, I'm ready to go. All right. I will just get on the 1st frame here. Okay, and I'll count us in. Is that all right? Let's do it. Okay, five, four, three, two, one, and we're off. Something I absolutely love about this season. Yeah, this this into the unknown season is um, There are no certainties at all, is there? Like, with Star Trek, you know, they, they, especially 90s Trek they built up the quadrants, and we knew exactly what to do. All bets are off in this season. That was a smart move, I think. I think Star Trek's biggest weakness is its continuity, the sort of memory alphaness of everything, the fact that it all happens in this sort of world that has this sort of history, and they're sort of struggling to find corners in which they can tell stories that don't sort of break anything else. And one of the things that I loved about series. One of Discovery was how many risks they took with that. You know, they said it just before the original series and they did things that annoyed the fans about continuity. And I'm absolutely on board with that. Technology was amazing, wasn't it? Well, but I mean, what would you do? Would you put a show out in 2017 that looked like Star Trek? The original series? The whole thing about it is that it is very, very pretty pictures. I mean, just just the lighting, the quality of the direction, the music, my God. rewatching this again just now, the music is stunningly good in a way that Star Trek has never, ever had. It's it's I find the music quite subtle in this episode. There's a lot of bombasting discovery because there's a lot of action. But this is a gentle episode, isn't it? So it's got a very sweet score, I think. There was a potential for it to go a bit too kind of schmoopy as well, and it didn't do that. Like it resisted that. I think it's beautiful. So here we have to point out that I'm quite impressed that so far the cameras are moving at a fairly sedate pace through discovery. In fact, Jonathan breaks this week. It's all going it's in slow motion. It's even slower than DSnipe. Well, I think this scene is really terribly good, and I'm not normally a big fan of voiceovers and stuff like that. I think sometimes they're a bit of a cheat and there are some pretty ripe ones in series 2 of discovery. But I think this is this is good. And because I think, in between the voiceovers, he's interacting with all of the characters. And so we see this, what he says illustrated by what the characters are doing. And just now we sure us, just now we saw a shot of Kayla. Kayla Detmer, who has a sort of cyborg implant. And we're talking about her not being okay. She denies that we know she's not okay. And she has the implant because of the injury that she suffered in episode one of Star Trek Discovery. She was on the Bridge of the Shenzhou for the Battle of the Binary Stars. And so the injury, you know, the not okayness, is like visible on her face in the form of that injury. I think it's really good. And then here, we get talk of connection and belonging to a bigger thing at the moment that we see the trill symbion to appear on screen. Very, very clever. He says, he says, there's 5 words that, giving everybody hope when we find the Federation. I sent you a message earlier saying that this episode leans into something, that Voyager did terribly, and it's built into its premise, and that is the idea of being cut off from home and the emotional ramifications of that. Now, I'm, you said it extends to beyond this episode. I can't remember much of that. It's dealt with so powerfully in this episode and in a way that's really affecting. I can't remember Voyager ever. Ever pulling off this concept of being trapped away from home and being terrified to have no connection to all, you know, there were people back home. It's really, really good. And the idea of connection too is so central to both plots in this and and to the arc as well. So the arc is that they've got this message and they want to find the Federation, so they have somewhere to belong. The A-plot, I guess the A-plot is Adira's plot, is Adira reconnecting with her memories, but finding that she's many, many people in one. She's a person who consists of a group of people and she's not aware of that. And her connection with Trill and Trill's connection with the Federation and everyone's connection with each other. It's so rich. We're not in 90s trek now, are we? No, God, yeah, the A and B plotter that I completely just get there for people is just filling time. Yeah, what's 2 questions for you? Number one question is this. When did Adira join the show? Because I don't remember her much before this. So no, she, she, she's from the future, so she's from this time, so I guess she must join the previous episode, I think. Or maybe at the end of episode two. I can't remember exactly. Oh, here, we've got the titles. What do you think? They are beautiful. Really quite simple, isn't it? Like, I mean, it's not. It's clearly a very sophisticated piece of effects work, but it's a simple idea. Mind you, it's focussing on the technology and that's my least, you know, I think I like least about Star Trek, but... You know what I think it's focussing on? I don't think it's focussing on the, I think it's focussing on the look of the show. And because they're blueprints, they make us think about people designing what Star Trek will look like in the 21st century. And they don't do it in Picard and stuff. But look, there's these exploded views of the phases and stuff. There's a little bit about the future here. Some of the technologies from, you know, they change the title sequence every year slightly. And so some of the technology here is from the future. We can't hear it. The theme is extraordinary. It's beautiful. And you are right. All of the the latter-day tricks. So Discovery lower decks and Picard have superb things. leagues ahead of 90s trek. Well, Lower Decks is a is a love letter to... That is great fun. Yeah, yeah. But the music is as well. Like, it's very kind of 90s track. My 2nd question she was, yes, there's nothing to do with the episode. I thought that doctor had died. Yeah, he got better. You know, did he just come back? Yeah. Have you haven't been watching the latest series of lower decks where that happens to a crew member as well. And there's a whole thing about them talking about how that always happens to the bridge crew and, you know, like Boem was not allowed to ask how it happened and stuff like that. So it is a thing. It is earned. It does take a long time and a lot of effort. And it is clearly because killing him was a horrible mistake in series one. I was about to say, she, what's the doctor's name in this? Because in GNG, it would be like, you know, Dr. Crusher has, she's brought him back with her usual skill, but he is the doctor. So that don't work. I think it's ironic that the episode of discovery that we have been selected is the most 90s trek episode of discovery I can think of. Yeah, well, the other thing about Kurtzman Trek that I adore is that it loves Star Trek in all its forms. Especially lower decks. Yeah, well, Lower Decks is a love letter to 90s Trek, but it's constantly riffing on original Trek as well. And the animated series, for God's sake. The great stature of Chief O'Brien. Yeah, yeah. And then this, and I think they find something, you'll know this better than me, but I think they find something more interesting to do with the trill than they ever manage with Jadzia or something different, a new way of conceptualising the trill. They did interesting things with the true. She used to be a mass murderer. Um, but, uh, you say that, this is a direct sequel to the episode. Yeah, yeah, I know. Because I watched, forget me not, an equilibrium back to back just because I wanted to see how faithful they were to equilibrium. And like the scenes set in the symbian pools. I think, you know, obviously it's a bit more visually stunning in this. But essentially they look exactly the same. Yeah. Well, they love 90s track and and the trill. And of course, these guys are from the era of TOS, they don't know about the trills. And and Saru had to explain to Michael who they were and what their deal was, you know, presumably because he's got the sphere information or whatever from last year and so he knows all about it. And what it is, is that you become part of a group of people, that you become a person who is made up of other people, and just the richness of that, and the way that it resonates with a crew becoming a group of people together or Discovery, joining the Federation or Trill, joining the Federation, I think, is it's so good. It is so good. But we get some painful moments leading up to that, I think. I mean, I felt that that moment where we're not there yet. We'll get there, where they're all around the table, having the dinner and laughing and joking and it all gets very soon. That's the 1st time I felt like this whole crew, you know, was coming together and I felt like they were an ensemble, you know? Yeah, that's how they get you though, because it all falls to pieces, obviously. very well done. Oh, see, now, I remember. See, this pair here, Tilly and Stamets. I think that's a really great combination. And I remember a scene. I think it's in series 2 where they start singing a David Bowie song and that was the moment when I was convinced that I could get on board with Discovery. It was it was a really sweet, really funny moment. They have a really nice relationship, I think. Yeah, I think they do too. Now, look here. She has a holographic, um, a paranoia board with all the pins and and like red thread joining them together. Like with photos of the burn and all of that sort of thing. It's a big hologram in front of her. I was so excited by that. It's her murder board. I really like her performers in this scene. Yeah, like her performance irritates me quite a lot. I won't lie. In this episode, I don't know, there's just something really gentle about her that I really like. Well, I think that's always been there. I think that that is, you know, what her character is, but she has to kind of work her way back, you know, from losing everything and all of that sort of thing in series one. But there's a real kind of gentleness to it, but I just think there's a charm and there's... That's the difference. They cover tears. There are some tears in this episode, I think, but I think they're a little bit more earned. Or we're just not sick of them. We're just not sick of them at this point. they even have a line kind of making fun of that a little bit. Can we talk about Hugh? Go on. He's very hot. He's so sweet. He also has been very sweet and gentle. And he's foregrounded here in a way that he hasn't been since he had the kind of I'm dead and now I'm better subplot. And I think he's great. He's a good choice here. If if Brian Fuller had remained in charge of discovery. Yeah, because he was summarily fired, wasn't he, somewhere in season one. Um, I don't think he would have come back. I don't think we would be leaning so much into 90s trek. I think the show would be going down the direction it went in series one. It would be a very very different show to what it is now. Um, I'm really pleased it went this way if I'm monitoring you. Yeah, I think for me it is getting a little bit more standard Star Trek in a way that disappoints me slightly, but I am hoping that with strange new worlds coming. Well, you know, because this doesn't have to be all of Star Trek anymore, Star Trek can all be different and do different things. And so if you've got a slightly more TRAD version of Star Trek that's a little bit less serialised and a little bit more like, you know, the procedural that all the previous Star Trek's have been except maybe Deep Space Night. Um, then this will be free to do something a little bit more interesting and a little bit longer term. But then it turns out as well that that the cast of Strange New Worlds is really diverse and strange, like it's going to be super interesting, I think. We just pause for a moment um, to comment on how completely charming a deer raise. Yeah. I think she, this is the most likeable character I've seen in Discovery. Um, there's a there's like a warmth to her. There's a vulnerability to her. I instantly liked her in this and um, oh, wow, I don't want to talk about what's going to happen later on in the episode, but the direction they go in with the, the, the love affair. Oh, it's beautiful. It's the best thing they do this season I think. She, it's the vulnerability. There's a real awkwardness, and she seems, I think, look, we all know that Adira will come out as non-binary later in the season and she'll start using they them pronouns, and they'll say that that's what they're more comfortable with, and that's how they kind of identify. And the actor themselves, Blue Del Barrio identifies the same way. And so we have a non-binary character in Star Trek, and we're going to have a trans character played by Ian Alexander as Gray. And there is something actually rather sweet in the way that they're introduced into Star Trek, because queer characters have been a long time coming to Star Trek. Thanks, Rick Berman. It's acknowledged. It's acknowledged in the DS9 documentary, Ira Bear, chastises himself. Right. But not being... He goes, we got a lot of things right for not being brave enough because Garak was supposed to be a gay character in DS9 and they pushed away from it and introduced Goldicut's daughter, which is just ickier than any queer. Yeah, she's a young girl. And he says we could have done better. He looked straight down the cameras, we should have done better. Now, can I just, and that's, that's, sorry, go on. Just very quickly, we had the shuttle landing at the Maktala Caves visitors centre there. Can I say, I missed the old Matt painting zone. Sorry. Well, see, that's the other thing too, is that this show is really committed to putting beautiful things on screen. And so here we're padding past these little fish. The flying fish and the fish flies. It's amazing. I wanted to mention the robots. So we're going about in the earliest. You're the ones that repair things. Such a lovely... Oh my god, Nathan, look at these. Now, they've been transported straight out of 90s trekking their robes, haven't they? And that's the other thing too. This version of Star Trek isn't a shamed of being Star Trek and it will do cheesy things like this, these people in their robes, God bless them. And a planet of like 10 people, you know. Do you remember in the last episode, the 2nd to last episode of Picard, when it went down to the like the Android tublicate. it was so fucking cheesy. I was like, I feel like I'm watching episode CNG again. It was like watching insurrection, wasn't it? And this, this is basically equilibrium. Like, yeah, people in ridiculous robes, slightly theatrical performances, you know, it's, um, 0 my god, it's so comforting love it. And the other thing here too. Is that they are not unified either. We have the usual thing where we're down on the planet and there are 2 political factions. So you have this guy whose name I can't remember. Voss, I think he was the one who came on board the ship as a hologram at the beginning. And then we have Z, who is the good guy in the red robe. And then we have, you know, between them, Pav or whatever her name is, the leader. She is really good. I think she's probably a well-known actor who we don't know, but she's very familiar. Who knows how the spots have got a little subtler. It used to be a bit more dramatic, didn't they, right? No, what, we a 1000 years in the future? 1000 years, 900 something. Yeah. Well, I think they've, you know. I think the makeup is, you know, more expensive. these overdone robes. I'm sorry. But so you've got these political factions and they come together at the end as well. You know, the thing is... You're unifying all the themes here in this episode. Well, that's the other thing. And some people found this difficult to take in series one of discovery, which is that it seemed to not really have that Starfleet ideal. And because it was a time of war, it was all about, you know, what compromises we need to make to our ideals to to kind of prosecute this war. Sorry, but you sounds like you're describing DS9 to me there, but go. Yeah, yeah. and then they go to the mirror universe and it's like Trump world. And now this show is rebuilding the Federation out of isolationist angry isolationist groups, Earth last week was that, like Earth had become that. Do you know, I'm surprised. You know, the whole idea of the burn and the Federation, you know just all being destroyed. I mean, I thought fans would absolutely push against that. And people, basically on the whole, went with it. Which I was quite surprised about it. because it was exciting. Star Trek was, it was unknowable again. It's enticing, I think, to not know. It is this thing where, where we've kind of, um, uh, we're in the ruins of the Federation. And, and Picard has the same thing too, where, you know, a big disaster has happened on Mars and the earth has become isolationist as well. Can I stop you there for a 2nd though? I feel like Picard was at least Discovery has some optimism about it. That Picard was so cynical. about everything. I mean, it couldn't have been more different from the next generation, could it? in terms of tone. I got halfway through that season and they were gouging out old characters eyeballs and all sorts and I was going, what is going on? The stuff. Star Trek, you know? But I think, you know, just now after 4 years of Trump and and, you know, Brexit and in a world that isn't the optimistic place that it seemed in the 90s maybe with, you know, um... You don't think that whole analogy for that, do you? building, you know, making America great again. Now Trump's gone, build rebuilding the Federation. Yeah, absolutely I do. Yep. absolutely. Yeah. That that's why Star Trek looks like this now. Well, actually, do you know what? And there's often a case that the politics of the time informs such a look at after 9-11 and then they did the end of Enterprise Series 2 at that massive terror attack. Yeah, and then series 3 was was, you know, post 9-11, sort of paranoia. Yeah, absolutely. Oh, so Ruby, it's so cute. Like, I love the fact that he can't quite grasp what's wrong, but he wants to know how he can help. You know, he's such a thoughtful character. And the actor is really strong. So this is Duck Jones who just wears a lot of prosthetics in everything that he does just about. And, you know, he was the main gentleman in hush in Buffy. Was he really? Yeah, yeah. He's responsible for many of my onlineers, you know. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, like he was the guy in the in the fish suit in shape of water, Oscar winning shape of water. I didn't think much of him. initially. They painted him out to be quiet. Not unlikeable, but a bit cold. And something changed over the 3 seasons. And at this point here, he's like, I know he's not the captain at the end of the season and I'm quite sad about that. You said to me that you thought he was the best Star Trek captain there'd ever been. I think that the reason that I really like him as captain is that he isn't the normal kind of, you know, like alpha male leader that even Janeway is. You know, Janeway is very hands-on hips and muscular threats and stuff. He's much more unsure of himself and he's much he's much more likely to operate. through praise and kindness and empathy. And I really, really like that. He's so kind and and he's got this sort of gentle voice and there's this weird smile he does through the prosthetics. I think he's magnificent. It's just a moment here to just reflect on how Star Trek Caves have improved over time. The beautiful like fairy lights all about them, but these pools look very similar to the ones in equilibrium. I mean, it does look more visually interesting. But he says at the beginning of the scene, you know, the shrine of Kakakoola or something like that. Some dreadful Star Trek name. A very nice stroke. It was in DS9. You know, we found the city of Bahalla. basically like that. And she gets into the pool in a minute. to regress into the memories, doesn't she? to, you know, to find. and that absolutely happens in equilibrium as well. Jazia goes into the pool. I find her memories of that previous host, the serial killer who happens to be recast in series 7, so we didn't have a clue that was when he came along. Ah okay. The war death. Oh, here's the dinner scene. This is terrific, this scene. And so I am not quite sure why you invite, um, Jojo there except... Because she's the funniest one around the table. So great. Everyone's going, yes, I said, yes. I said, yes. she said, well, I didn't say yes, but I'm here anyway. Well, no, she starts eating while he's giving the speech, like this, like she spears a crab claw or something. Let's not even pretend she ain't the best thing about this show. She is magnificent that cousin Michelle, who comes from Malaysia and shares her last name with my husband. So that's cousin Michelle, who comes to all our family dues and kicks middle-aged man in the head. She's fantastic. She's amazing. I just like that everyone else is, you know, very Starfleet and she's just so... She pushes against all the normal cliches, doesn't she? For example, we talked about in the previous episode about, you know, that awful old cliche about where they're saying, oh, you've got a choice whether to go to war or not. She'd absolutely be the one person go, well, I'm not. I off. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. What happened in this scene, the way this is directed in a way where it feels like, oh, you know, he's got them all around the table. They're all sharing their experiences, they're all laughing. It's really beautifully done and you lean into the lovelyliness of it. And then it twists, the, the, the, the mood twists very dramatic. I kind of recoiled from the scene. It was it was so well done. There's a little bit of a thing where the kind of arc, like the reversals and things, mirror the reversals in this other scene that we can't do. And like the 1st time we go to the dinner party, we have a cross fade from the caves to the dinner party as if they're part of the same sort of thing that's happening. And I think that's like that's just sort of terribly well done and like a sort of subtle and clever choice. You see this man here attending the symbian pools. Yeah. I would just like to point out that the same character in the DS9 episode equilibrium was much funnier. He was one of those, he was one of those mad old eccentrics, you know, that hangs out. been there for centuries. It was really funny. But you can't have everything. No. Well, you've got you've got cousin Michelle being funny in the other plot. Do you know what? When they all start getting nasty, rich, upper. She's smiling. Yeah. She loves it. Twisting the knife in a bit, you know? I think she starts, you know, like baiting them a little bit. Yeah. Yeah, she's great. Has she left the show now? Yeah. So there's talk of a section 31 show in development with her in it. I'll just say that is a completely DS9 base show. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, they love Deep Face and I on this show. Look at these two. Yeah. Yeah, I think the 2 of them bond really well on the trip down to the shuttle and just remember how early this is. You know, we had last week going to Earth and now we've got episode 4 and the 2 of them sort of bond really well. I think, I think sending her was a good decision. I mean, you needed to give Michael something to do and you don't want to see her bitching with everyone around the dinner table. When I rewatched this, I said to you that this was, for me, this felt like, um, the most DS9, Discovery episode because it was so character focussed. Now, I know there is a lot of character focus in discovery, but it's usually character focus and big weighty arcs as well and lots of action, you know? Whereas DS9 will have lots of character focussed episodes like this. The fact that it was a little bit more sedate, you know, the pace of the episode is a bit slower. Um, and of course it's set on trill as well. So no one, I mean, for me, I think this is this is like a top 5 discovery. this episode. Oh, I think so too. I think easily. It's a little bit hard to pick out because of the serialised storytelling and I find it hard sometimes to know which episode we're talking about. You can't highlight something. You remember the one where they go back to Saru's home planet? That's extraordinary. Yep. And the time loop one in series one is pretty incredible. Oh, the Harry Mud one. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that was really good. Yeah. Oh, here we go. Oh, we're all getting on. Yeah, no, Reese gets to smile. That's all he gets to do. He doesn't get any dialogue. He's Joe. She gets to say something to Kayla. she's got a line or two. Honestly, God, I swear she just keeps admitting. She's a complete filth bag and she froze up a lot and she's drunk a lot. Yeah, she's wonderful. I think she's great. She has a great line when she comes in afterwards to speak to Saru in what I think is a great scene. So this is Kayla losing her shit publicly at the dinner table. There's always someone like this at a party. I'm telling, you know, shitting on everyone else's good time. And this was, this has been right from episode two. I know that's not a long arc, but she was clearly hugely disturbed by the jump into the future. And people were wondering whether, you know, her implant was malfunctioning or what the plot would be. And I think I remember thinking, I hope it's not space reasons. I hope she's not, you know, inhabited by an alien entity or something. I hope she's just really stressed and upset and that's where they went. And this is like the in series three. This is like the 1st time she's been given any kind of sophisticated characterisation. Thank God because the actress is really good. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, but you know, she starts... She must have thought in series one, this is a thankless part. I'm just on the bridge, you know, doing my bit. Yeah. Well, she's a minor role. Like they're virtually scenery, the bridge crew in series one because they wanted it not to be a Star Trek show, I think. You wonder why I was confused. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it took me forever. telling me that was the point. That was the point. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because Michael wasn't a member of the bridge crew. She said that act like assholes. Yeah. She says fuck in series one, but now Star Trek won't say fuck. No, I do. No, because everyone in 90s strike has such a massive stick up their ass. you know, like... Excuse me. That's where I swears all the time. There's one episode where I can... Bl bloody. That's just because Americans don't know what that means. Did you ever see the one episode where they snuck into swear words but completely under the radar? Oh really? It's the Grand Nagas in the 2nd to last episode. And there's like the rain is causing all this fuzzy interference and it just goes, what a fucking mess. They go. But if you watch the subtitles. swear words. Brilliant. Ah, here we go. Yeah. So, you know, at the same time as the Denny dinner party goes to hell, this goes to hell, you know, like this plot goes to hell at the same, you know, at the same moment in the episode. And then this very, very quickly. And it is because because of Michael's concern for Adira that they're won over, isn't it? Absolutely. And I guess Z saying that she's all that we have. I really like I'm kind of jumping down a little bit. I really like the parallel with equilibrium here, where both episodes reveal a massive twist that fundamentally could change trail society. In equilibrium, it's that far more trio, can take symbience than it's known, and that whole initiate program is irrelevant, but they put put people through it just to get the best, the best to have them. And in this one, it's that other species, isn't it? It can take the trio symbians. Yeah. So Riker had one once. But you know how it works. It's your favourite plot resolution. The reason that she can take the trill is because she and Gray are in love and Gray trusts her with his life and eventually he does have to trust her with his life. Oh, he's the get out moment. Um, so this is the other thing that, that this version of Star Trek does, that 90s straight doesn't do, which is this commitment to putting just weird and incomprehensible things on screen. But let's not forget the, you know, the level of technology they have to work with now to realise this is a completely different league to what they have. I think in 90s trek, like we were impressed at the time, but there is a very sort of staid and limited visual grammar, I think. And I think this is controversial. Series one and 2 of Star Trek The Next Generation looks shitty and cheap in lots of ways. It looks worse than the original series sometimes. Some of those planetary, you know, studio backdrops. Yeah, shockingly bad. But it does do weirder looking things than Star Trek does, like Star Trek sort of settles down and looks generally sensible, but is not ambitious. And so here, like, it's clear that these are memories because it's like, synapses, isn't it? It's like, you know, like, yeah. The, and and physical connection, like memory and connection, again you know, made into a thing. And for me, I would rather you know me. I can't bear the technobabble. I can't bear really the technology. I'm not interested in it. I'd rather have this weird stuff going on. I mean, remember an episode in series one where they had that tardigrade? Power in the strip. And I was like, well, I can get going that. That's a great big monster that's powering the ship. I can, you know, start going on about warp calls and they thought no, I'll fall asleep. Sorry. Yeah, no, and that was super weird too. This sort of, yeah, unusual visuals. It's far more appealing to me than hearing, you know, Julie La Forge. Batter off a load of technobabble about what's happening with her. Yeah. Yeah, and I think this is amazingly interestingly directed as well. You know, the way that we look across from this space into things in her memories and and the fact that these are not flashbacks at all. These aren't flashbacks. These are memories. This is happening now. She's remembering it now. And it's shot in a nonnaturalistic way. It is, but this is a very gentle episode of Star Trek. And the visuals are very lovely as well. You know, it doesn't, it doesn't push that out of that tone, which I went. Oh my word. Okay. So we need to talk about this actor here. is terrific. So this is Ian Alexander, and he has done roles. He's very young. Both of them are very young. I think, um, I think Blue is older than he is. I think that he, I think he's amazing. He has this juice, so vanity. This beautiful boy and he's so serene and... I often struggle with, um, believing Star Trek romances. Like, I like going... I think of another trio romance with Beverly Crusher and, you know write-up when he had to figure it out. You're like going, oh, God, what's this nonsense? I don't believe this at all. These two. And the romantic scenes that are coming up are effortlessly believable. Oh, well, look at the smile. He's smiling so beautiful. Just so great. And, you know, I think I'm in love, Nathan. Well, he's a little bit young for me, but he is like, it's these kids. And that's the other thing, you know, like the 2 sort of transactors are young people. And I think there's a sweetness to that, you know, like that, that that there's a queer family made out of it. We've got the 2 gay men, you know, that's a conception of, I don't know. I just kind of think that you've got 2 gay men, they're 2 gay dads and the 2 kids, really. And there's a real sweetness to that after just such a desert of representation over the years. Is there a pushback against that, asshole? know No, I don't know either. Like, you know, like, with like, um, Jenny Whitaker's Doctor Who there's like this whole, you know, it's too woke. Oh, yes, there is that. I'm almost willing to believe in Star Trek fandom that there's some of that going on. Oh, for sure. Even before Grey and Adira came along, everyone hated the fact that there was a black woman who was the main character, you know like there was that, it's the same with Star Wars and Ray, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, the fella, the Stormtrooper, was supposed to have a gay romance, wasn't he? And then they pushed against that. Yeah, yeah. There was that big no homo moment in the rise of sky. These moments here where they're sharing like the interests and laughing about it and gently mocking each other. Like, I'm sorry, this is every romance I've ever had right here. Just the cello, the way the direction foregrounds the cello. Look at the lighting as well. Sorry, now. Come on. You and your dramatic lighting, that's very dramatic. But this show does lighting much, much better than 90 Streke ever did. And it is, you know, lighting coming in through windows and and bits of the frame being lit, not, you know, Picard sitting alone in the dark room in yesterday's enterprise, wondering where his fucking pen went. You know, like, like this, the lighting here is beautiful and these shots are interesting, you know? I mean, it's like coming in for a window so that, you know, they're showing you the sorts that scene we had in yesterday's Enterprise. It was just like, well, why the hell doesn't he turn the lights on? Like, there's no reason for it to be done like this. She just said there, um, I could never do what you did. And the response was bullshit. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now, that's a real relationship. You know, goats, remember that dreadful relationship between Queen Armadillo and Anakin Skywalker and he's like, and I find you're intoxicating. Things have moved on a lot in science fiction romances, you know. Oh look at this. Bless them. These sweet kids. Do you know what? This is the worst episode for you and me. We're both a pair of hugest romantics. Oh. What's in the boss? The box thing is just heartbreakingly beautiful and terribly sad as well. And this too, where Adira accuses Michael of wanting this to work because it's important to the Federation. And she doesn't deny it because it's the same thing. It's the connection. It's her belonging somewhere. None of them have a past either. She doesn't have a past. The way she recovers her past is this. The way that they find a way to belong in a world where everyone they knows. everyone they know is dead. You know, he's finding the Federation. All of its linked. Sorry, I'm just I'm enjoying the visuals now. Well, the visuals are so great. So good. I mean, I mean, we're watching this with the sound down. I can still, I can understand what's going on. This is well directed enough that I don't need the words, you know? Oh, no, I have the subtitles on even when I... I mean, I do too. Because I'm old. So this is what's in the box. She's done this sort of needlework. thing that represents their relationship, their time together. You know, they're 2 kids on a starship that have found one another and have fallen in love and they're, you know, these silly memories that they have. And look what happens to that blanket in a minute. Look at what happens to it. It's incredible. Oh, it's just the chemistry between them that sold me when I was watching this. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I was like, are these actors in a relationship? Oh, the little hug. Oh, God. My word. Genesis a world apart from that scene between Tom and B'Elana in lineage, isn't it? I was thinking... Oh, oh, that scene where they're smiling and you see the asteroid coming towards them through the window. And we already know that Gray is dead because she has the symbient right? We saw him getting the symbient. But Adira has this ambient at the moment. And so we know going in when we see Gray get the thing that he's dead and that that's what she's been avoiding. And this is a good moment to say, because I think you're going to hold it together in this watch. But I know I know for a fact in your previous watches, um, you were in tears watching us, wasn't you? it moves you to tears. Yeah, both times that I watched it in preparation for this, I was crying from before this moment. So from pretty much the moment that we 1st see gray, like, and it is just the sweetness of these, like young people in love, that's adorable, and they're so sweet together, and we know what's coming. She, she's wrapping him in the blanket and it gets covered in his blood and, and the fact that it's that relationship that saves him you know, that thing where, where, I trust you with my life, you know, man, it's so good. I so good. I brought up the tears for a reason, and that is because one of the many things, and you'll get to know us as we do this podcast that Nathan Bottomley has done for me since I've known him, because I refuse to cry at TV before. was to say, you know what? It's okay. Let yourself go. Cry. Enjoy TV. Like, And this is very moving. Yeah, I think it is too. And there are other things at the end of it too. It isn't just the death of gray and the sweetness of their relationship. There are other things coming up, which I didn't tell you about that I cry cried about as well. So this, oh, and this, the music at this moment. So this is the big moment when, you know, she now has her memories back and she meets the circle, like all of the previous hosts and the triumphant music at their appearance. A little bit more diverse than Jadzia's hosts, aren't they? Well, but in, like, they kind of did this in DS9, obviously not within a single scene, they had the scene where every host had to go into one of the regulars and they were all like, no, no, no. It was really well done. I remember it. It gave them all a chance to basically ham it up for an episode you know? Like, what's his name? Renee, I played Curzon. Of course he did. And this, you know, it shows though, doesn't it? It shows that the premise of the trill still has legs in modern day television. Yeah. Yeah, and they can do something slightly different with it this time. Like this... You know, Admiral Tal is welcome her into the circle, like, and but he's also been calling the crew of the Discovery to the Federation as well, you know. So neat to have like such an affecting character drama that pushes the arc on. very gently, you know? Trust me, it's not often as neat as this in this show. I think that this is like, I do think that this is an extremely good episode of discovery. I don't think discovery slows down like this enough. I think it's very frenetic, this show. Maybe. Well, it wants to be modern and modern TV is set pieces. It's it's excitement, you know, it's it's keep people interested with new things coming along. I think this is still more talky than most modern TV perhaps. Yeah. I think that's why I like it. Yeah. But I mean, I think discovery generally, there's a lot of kind of people talking about their feelings and speech of mine and stuff like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's still Star Trek, but you know, it just, it's, it is a bit less stagey because they can afford to just not spend, you know most of each episode just. Yeah, yeah, they're not just in standing sets talking to one another, you know. But like what used to happen in Voyager. what happened towards the end of 90s trek into the 2000s is that you would have like um, like talkie episodes and they were just shoving an action set pieces every week because that was expected to have the action. I think I think there's a balance now between action and talk. Yeah. Well, see, I love this moment too, where originally she couldn't give her names. She couldn't give her names and then she gives her names, you know lovely. Look at the performers as well, where she's kind of saying, I am a deer at Tao. Yep. And then bad, you know, now we have the political reunification of the trill and, you know, one... it's all a bit quick, isn't it? Yeah, that's very trek as well, though, isn't it? Oh, of course, of course. But the inciting incident is fairly sort of, you know. Well, what I really like is that the woman whose name I've forgotten, the one in charge says, you know, um, like come back and look us up in the future. Yeah, so I'm hoping we go back here. Yeah. Yeah, I hope so too. But it is... super pleased that she went back to Discovery. Because when I 1st watched this, I was like, oh, no, this lovely character. They're gonna write her out and she's so lovely. And what they did completely surprised me then going forward. I think the 2 characters. Yeah. wonderful. That introduction is so well done as well. So good. Is it played like, I can't remember. Is it played like sinister at all, like, like... No, no, no, it's beautiful. It is really beautiful. So it's just like in her head that having a relationship. Like, is that how it's played? like in the future episodes. Because there's the 2 of them talking, isn't there, in the mess or things like that? They have a fight and and Gray doesn't show up for a while and Adira wonders where he is. And Gray, Adira tells, um, I think Hugh and Paul or maybe just maybe just Hugh. I can't remember exactly, tells one of them at least about Gray. Yeah, no, no, Paul and you, I think, both know about Gray. Yeah, yeah. And then I won't tell you what happens because you haven't seen the finale. Okay. I'll watch it. There's telly coming in and given the advice that he needs. Well, and this is nice as well, because Tilly is our normal person. I love how she comes in and says at my place that's just Tuesday night. You know, that's why we do this every day. captain at some point. No, sort of. There's a sort of Captain Tilly thing happening. She's she's a captain in the mirror universe and has to pretend to be Captain Tilly in the mirror universe. Oh, I remember, she's in a ridiculous costume. Oh, yeah, with the tits out and stuff. Tubing it up terribly. Yeah, yeah, wonderful. They always do in the mirror. Yeah. Yeah. But this is really nice as well. Paul is made to apologise because he was a bit of a prick. And she kind of makes him apologise. I don't know how she gives Saru advice. You know, he's the captain. And this is the, you know, it's hard to imagine, you know, that happening in any other show. you know, like, but she does it by just having a conversation. What would happen in 90s trek is you'd have Chewbok. I don't know, doing a Vulcan orchid and saying, well, the metaphor here is, is that if you take this leaf here and that leaf there you put them together and there's our plot 2 points. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It makes some dreadful analogy like that. The 2 of them are quite good. They have a, like, moments together in episode 2 of this series and here we go, bookending from his opening scene where, and it's all a little bit obvious, you know, but it's nice to hear it said. No, she's not okay. I mean, I am going to say, though, yeah, um, this is how little I've connected with somebody, I don't know some of their names. What's this woman's name here? Kayla Detmer. Thank you. I don't know. I can't remember her name. Yeah, she was on the show. She's in the 1st episode. Yeah. I was just wondering if maybe if Eric Sward had written this and they weren't given names. No, they all have names. I think Pike make sure that we're introduced to them all in an early episode of series two. Oh, just in case you've forgotten. Just in case you think... Where do we where do we go from here then? So, so, so we do find the Federation fairly soon. In fact, maybe next episode. Yeah, not very nice, are they? It's like that hot grey-headed man. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But we grow to love him. so it's a thing. I love there we go. There's um, uh, cousin Michelle taking um, some popcorn off Linus. What's a liner? So I was about to say... So, saurians are in original track. They're from original track. I think he's a really funny character. I don't think they look like that in the original track, did they? No, no. So this is one of the things that I had a little cry about, and it's ridiculous, but the way that Stammet comes up to Kayla, and they just hug without saying anything, and it's not Kayla doesn't get kind of forced to apologise, or, you know, he doesn't talk about how much it hurt him or anything like that. It was just pure forgiveness. And if this was not his trek, that absolutely would have happened that would be a dialogue scene now, wouldn't there? I just love that so much. I just, that idea of just these people reconnecting, in spite of the fact that they've been stressed and horrible to one another and maybe I'm watching this a few weeks after a sort of long isolated lockdown, and that probably didn't help. But the idea of just that reconnection, that effortless reconnection, I think, is beautiful. I think sometimes when you watch something, uh, completely informs your reaction to it as well. Although quickly going back to, you know, you said how they didn't have to talk about it, there was one example in 90s trailer. I just want to very quickly say in, when you know, when Kira and Odo fall out during the Dominion War arc, and then you're like, oh no, they're going to have this awful episode where, you know, the 2 of them come back together. And then Jadzir has her wedding episode and the pair of them end up in a cupboard drunk. And then in the morning, they come out the cupboard and it's all sorted. Oh, brilliant. not making us watch that. There's no one again. awesome. Ahead of its time. Yeah. That's brilliant. Oh, this scene as well. Oh my. Okay, look at the lighting in this scene. It's really stunning. Yeah, well, the way that they light through the windows, I think is it's something that David Carson does in generations that we talked about it when we were doing yesterday's Enterprise, I think in our 1st episode. I can remember an episode of DS9 when I go back to when the station is next to Bajor, in series 6 and they've got lights streaming through the windows, just like this. Right. And I'm like, oh, man, we can do that all the time. We'll be good about this all along. So, um, Michael leaves and says you'll start to get their memories back in time, no doubt. And then I think, do we hear Gray's voice before we see him? Yes, we do. He delivers the line out of view and the camera swings around and there he is and he's criticising her bowie. And she's laughing about it. Man, this is so real. This is so real. It's lovely. Look at him. Yeah, no, these 2 make me happy all season. See, I think I think we could probably have more of these two. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I missed Gray for the episodes that he was absent in the middle of the season and I don't know whether it was act as an availability or what it was, but they have a fight and he doesn't show up for a bit. And this, look at that. The smile. Like, we've we've mentioned a lot of beautiful imagery. It goes out with the most beautiful imagery of the episode. And uh, the lullaby that they're playing is a plot point and we'll come up again. So, uh, and you know what? It's very strange. Sometimes, um, See, I watched this on my own, and I found it very very big. But weirdly enough, as a shared experience, I found that more moving. It's, I think it's beautiful. It is really, really good. And I think, you know, the other thing that, that, that this has over 90 Star Trek is just, it's a, it's more sophisticated storytelling. The dialogue is generally better. And it's beautiful. Gosh it's a beautiful looking show. Hello, that was such a good episode. I'm not going to contradict anything of what you just said there but I have many things to say off camera, right? But I will say, I think I, this year before, I think this is a fairly atypical discovery episode. Um But it is stunningly good. It's a great piece of drama. Yeah, no, we were lucky to get this for our 1st discovery, I think. Oh, really? I'm only one of their shitters. I could have still defended that. All right, so you and I have made a decision about which series we're going to cover next episode. We have, yes. For a couple of reasons. I think, um, I think there's quite a lot of original series fans out there when it comes to Star Trek. And secondly, our fantastic artwork that has been delivered this week very much leans into the original series. It does. Space Lincoln. I got a tribble on my shoulder. Can I just say for a moment, Kayla, you made me extremely well muscled within that. Next generation uniform. Thank you very much. Yeah, no, you're poured into that. So we're doing an episode of Star Trek, the original series, and that's all. And I think when it comes to the original series, you know, I think we're both, we're not too knowledgable, are we? I couldn't put my hand on my heart and swear that I've seen every episode, but I have seen a lot of it. And some of it I've seen a whole bunch of times. So it sort of varies, I think. I usually get to the episode where Kirk could split into 2 and then it goes off to do unspeakable things to old Janice. What's her name? and then I turn it off then and say, well, okay, this clearly was made in a different time. But I am my finger is hovering over the button. Okay, so you're at Untitled Star Trek project.com slash randomiser where the randomiser can be found for all your random Star Trek needs. Okay, I want you to press a button. Doing it. Oh, I don't know what that is. The ultimate computer. Oh, other than that one. Do you know what? Ain't fun if I don't do it at least 3 times. Okay, all right. Let's make that the rule. Oh no, no, no. Okay, it's got to be this one. This episode has the best score of any TOS. The Corbamite maneuver. Oh, okay. Yep, absolutely. I'm okay. And the music goes, duh. It's so, oh, it's fabulous. And it's got this great big yellow sphere that and at the end there's some weird twist about this child man who's behind a fabulous episode. Yes, yes. It's a very famous episode. Okay. All right. The Corba might maneuver. So that's what we'll be doing next time. Oh wait. You've been listening to Untitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford and Nathan Bottomley. You can find us online at untitled Star Trek Project.com, where you can find links to our Twitter, Facebook, and YouTube channel. Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceran and the theme was composed by Cameron Lamb. This episode was recorded on the 27th of October 2021 and released on the 26th of November. We'll see you next time for the original series, The Corbamite maneuver.