Dramatis Personae

Hey, Joe. Hi. So, I'm blaming you for all of this, and I want you to recount for us the sequence of events that led up to us watching dramatis persona today. Well, I see, there is a fact that I love Deep Space Nine. and it's my favourite Star Trek show. I think I may have mentioned that once or twice. Once or twice. Now, what have we done so far? House of Cork, which was pretty good. Take me out to the Holo Suite, which is a top tenor for you. Monumental. and in the Power Moonlight, which a few minor niggles aside is considered a bit of a classic. and Blaze of Glory, which we said was pretty good as well. bit crummy. Apart from me. Leave me. I'm just holding back. So what I wanted to do was because we've done a fair number of crappy TNG episodes. I want us to finally do a DS9 dud, and I was going to keep pressing that button until I got one. And dramatis personae, I think, that sounds so English, dramatis personae, came up pretty quickly, and I've got to say, I'm going to make a confession. I think this might be the worst episode that we have watched so far of anything of anything. I think this is probably worse than that strange new Wales episode of Enterprise. Yeah, yeah. What about Sub-Rosa? No, but that was fun. It was camp. It was ridiculous. That's it. I agree. This was boring, like eye glazingly boring. And there seem to be no stakes. I wasn't quite sure what was going on. I guess maybe Kira and Ben were going to kill one another, but it was very, very hard to care, I found. I couldn't really figure out the mystery behind it. you know, what the puzzle was, what the point of that was. The characterisation they gave everybody was so off kilter and bizarre. I kind of feel, I feel like have this here, maybe not long after emissary, and that would be doing that season one thing of making everyone act out of character before we figured out who they are. Baffling season one thing. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But had this hit then, because Kira and Cisco had a very turbulent relationship in those 1st couple of episodes. And this might have made a bit more sense then because what happens is once they're taken over, Cisco and Kira have a very turbulent relationship. But we've kind of moved beyond that a little bit now, you know? I mean, I think that, well, look, as I was watching it most of the time I was thinking about what would have to happen to this script for it to be anything, like about anything. Like, what did they even think they were doing? And I have a kind of vague idea about that? But I might get into it once we actually get going. What I wanted to ask you, though, like, series one of Deep Space 9 has some really standout episodes in it, doesn't it? Yes. Yeah, I think it certainly has better 1st season episodes than TNG managed to achieve. Yeah. The bar is not high, but yeah. But it is the 2nd Star Trek that they've launched, and so they have definitely learned stuff in the intervening time. And so I always think of progress, which I think is really good. The smaller sort of intense character episodes that really hear. Vortex is really good. That's the one with Odo where it goes off into that nebula with a guy. Duet, obviously, which comes after this. Well, another another. Another era and a big guest actor episode. Yeah, so it's all, but it's whenever they start doing like sub-TNG episodes. And I can see what they're doing now. I think they even admitted that they were trying to bring in the tits, so they've got Lerser and Beto, Q, Luaxana, Troy, like they're all thrown in there in season one to see how and some of it works. Some of it really doesn't work. So is this them trying to scale the heights that Star Trek, the next generation's power place scaled. They're doing this all high concept sci-fi episodes, which they basically ditch sort of couple series 4, where they've got their own mythology, their own set of characters and their own arcs, and they just sort of run with those, but you've got episodes in this 1st season, like, um, they would be next generation episodes. If wishes were horses, you know, when the baseball player and Rumple still Skinner Pierce. What else have you got out? Move along home is absolutely a TNG episode. And then the Babel. Yeah, the asphasiac virus episodes. Yeah, yep. You know, I watched that before this. is abysmally bad. Dear. Yeah. But this one as well. This is this is a TNG episode, isn't it? This doesn't feel like DS9 at all. No, but it feels like a bad TNG episode. Like a much, like, power play, for instance, is the closest that I can think of. And there at least you have some characters, you know, regulars aren't sort of just behaving out of character. There are 3 people who are very specifically characterised who are trying to do a thing and we defeat them. And we thought it was sort of unambitious, but you got to see Deanna kind of firing guns at people and stuff and there's a pleasure to be. It had a tiny bit of pace to it, some style sort of direction. Like, this was so flat. It's all done on DS9 and it's at that point in series one where it all feels a bit claustrophobic. I don't know what they do. I don't even think that they light it better later on or something like that, but it feels like a bit opened out. Whereas this just felt very enclosed. Yeah. So that means it's cheap. They not wanting to light, maybe they're not wanting to light the whole set or something. I mean, we just watched the 1st episode of a new series of Star Trek and it looked amazing and it knew that its job was to look amazing. And I've seen the 2nd episode and the 3rd episode since then, and it's continued to put as one of its kind of major goals, major creative goals is to look weird. and to look impressive. This has 3 special effects. They're really boring. It's everyone is just talking in the standing sense. It's our regulars, all talking to one another in the standing sets. We don't want to spend any money this week on anything at all. And it's so boring and so dull to look at. particularly these sets that have no reflective surfaces. Oh for goodness sakes. You were reflective services. I do want to say... Strange New Worlds has lots of reflective surfaces. I do want to say about the DS9 sets. Like they were just be proud at the time of these and they were incredible sets at the time. Like, nothing like those tedious TNG, you know, like the bridge and things like that in the corridors. And they were trying to light it differently. I get that they're trying to showcase it a bit. Yeah. But with this dreary ass episode with this plot. Oh, so, so bad. It's terrible. Um, I've got a few quotes to throw at you before we go in because I've got a feeling that the production team believes that this is actually a successful episode, uh, which baffles me because even Ira Bay, that's usually pretty hard on this sort of thing. You know, he writes off, let he who is without sin in season five. Well, wow. It's got Vanessa Williams in it. you know. Yeah, that's true. That's a beat right off. But they could have thrown Vanessa Williams into this one and improved at substantially, I think. I think maybe you might find the motive behind this episode in this quote. And you ain't going to like it either. Was it we were running out of money? He says, it was a 3rd season show that we had the nerve to do in the 1st season. Anybody else would say, you need to know the characters better before you twist them like this. Yeah. But seeing Kira come onto Dax, I don't care if it's our 1st or 3rd season, people are going to be interested in that. Yes, that's it. Non-threatening homosexual people. It's uh, it's a thing. It's actually a little bit of a deep space 9 thing, isn't it? Like, um, like the intendant, you know, they're sort of casual lesbianism to titillate the male viewer. It's a bit tedious. Well, yeah, but it's like the same thing about the motive about you know, 7 of 9, the Borg babe and pouring her into that suit. It's what you said about 90s treks and why sexuality was so terribly handled. So embarrassing. It's these people on the screen. That's right. I'm saying none of it's Ter and Terry Farrell, you know, getting up close and personal. That's enough of a motive for an episode. So tame as well, for God's sake. What else have we got here? Hang on. Arman Shimman says, I love the episode. I love the fact that the revolution broke out. Even though it wasn't a real revolution. I still love the conflict between Cisco and Kira, a person who is national and who I only thinks about world first. So they're all trying to put like a greater meaning into this than I was seeing, if I'm honest. Michael Piller, who, you know, we've said, basically turned around TNG when he came in. He says it's a somewhat low budget episode. Really? Oh, yeah. But with very interesting great performances. See, I beg to differ because I think... They are really terrible. And I think... Colomini is especially terrible in this. I think he's usually pretty reliable. You know, props to see it as well. pulls off a pretty shockingly bad. In fact, I think he's the 1st person to absolutely fuck this episode up. And it was the moment that I saw him and I'll point it out when we get to it where I thought, oh, no, this is this is just going to go horribly wrong. Well, do you know who wrote this before we go in? No, God. Well, never guess. He's weird ass, science, joke, joke. Manosky's back with his crazy arse masks. Sometimes he hits. I think masks is good. Mask is terrible. are you talking about? I can't wait to see it again. Musaka is unhappy with your... Yeah, yeah. Masaka is delicious. All right. What do you reckon? Oh, no. you got someone else? I've got one more thing to say to you before I go in. Okay, because Manosky says there's a motive or a reason why Cisco's making a clock in this episode. What do you imagine that is? Oh, God, shut up. He doesn't know what time it is and he would quite like to know. You are so cheap. You're so cheap. a plausible reason. What's the other reason? Shut up. He's supposed to be an obsessive quirky Emperor Rudolph type who fussed about with mechanical bits and pieces. I didn't get that at all from these. No. Did anyone give him the note? There is one thing about that clock which I quite like, and again I'll let you know about it when we get there. Yes, quite pretty. That's about it. No, I've got another thing. Oh okay. All right. All right. What do you think? Should we go? I think we should watch this classic, don't you? I think we should 45 minutes and 27 seconds of our lives. Okay. At least we're together. That's true. That's what we can say about... At least we're suffering together. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Nope, that makes it worthwhile. And maybe just maybe we're making some of the listeners at home suffer as well. All right. Here goes. Five, four, three, two, one, and we're off. Yes, we are. Establish DS 9. Yeah, this cost no money because they had it already. This costs no money. Gosh, I have to say... You cannot spend the entire episode. This costs no money. I reckon. None of the episodes cost a bloody penny. All right? Yeah, no, they were paying these people anyway. It doesn't matter whether they do anything or not. Oh, I'm always obsessed by the decoration in the rooms. You see that light on the wall there? Is it supposed to be a bit like a submarine? Yeah, no, it's an oyster light. That's the thing. They were very, they were very period. I really liked them. I think that it looks very good. You know what? I just, I, the, the Cisco and Kira look in season one is a thing isn't it? Cisco is like safe dad, Avery Brooks. Yeah, yeah. Because from the off, they wanted him to have his shaved head and his goatee, but Paramount exec said, no, no, a bit too dangerous for Star Trek, you know? Yeah. And Kira, well, I'm not sure what's going on there. I'm questioning that. I mean, I'm questioning no sexuality anyway in this episode but... Well, I don't know that I don't think it's a queer haircut. I do think it is a lady from, you know, human resources, though probably. You know, like it's it's very American and very 90s, I think. Can I tell you something? Oh, sorry, I won't let you talking about it. She tripped over during this episode, right? And was admitted to hospital and instead of treating her wound they thought her nose was broken. She said her makeup on... Oh my god, your nose. What's happened? Sorry, what were you going to say? Oh, dear. Well, so this conflict here between Kira and Cisco, like this is a thing that happens in a few season one episodes with Kira, isn't it? Where she is kind of adjusting to the kind of political reality of a post-war Bajor, and she's kind of trying to work out how much she can continue to sort of prosecute the, you know, like pay back the things that happened. And obviously duet is very much about that. In past prologue, which is the 2nd episode after emissary. Yeah. They have... We just missed a special effect. Well, an explosion. It was a bit boring, though. We'll skip over that. Like most of the special effects in this episode. And the tension between him and that is really to a point where she goes to a Starfleet Admiral and like grasses him up. And then the admiral tells Cisco and then Cisco says, if you go over my head again, I'll have yours on a platter. It's a great thing. But the payoff for it is in battle lines where she's down on the planet and she realises she has got to take this man off the planet. Otherwise he's going to be killed because they're going to sap this moon of his atmosphere. And Cisco beams down and in a beautifully acted scene, says to her you're on the other side now, like you've got to get used to this. You said battle lines, but I think you meant progress. I do mean progress. Sorry. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's a lovely payoff. And then the other payoff is in it's a bit overplayed at the end of the duet, but where she realises that not every Kardassian is the enemy anymore. So she goes on a really nice journey. Unfortunately, this is the one point in the season where this tension does not work. But I mean, there is a sense in which what they could have done is make this conflict that ends up happening be a mirror of the conflict that they're having. And so we get to see, in a sense, what happens if that conflict isn't dealt with if they don't find a way of kind of accommodating each other? But the moment they all start doing silly voices and being different people, it all goes out the window. If it had been this space thing that was causing them to plot against one another, like the people on the Klingon ship, and you've got, you've got them getting out of control in a plausible way in a way that's consistent with their characters, something that just might happen in a certain circumstance. And and then you've got Odo investigating and coming to the conclusion, 0 my god, this is what happened on the Klingon ship as well. That's interesting. It should have been subtle enough that for a while. This could actually have been playing out anyway. Yeah exactly. Yeah. But unfortunately, is that thing is Star Trek, the 2nd you ask people to play, you know, I've been taking over acting, they just they, they go completely in every direction to where, to where they normally play it. But I think that the the mistake was saying, all right, these are people being inhabited by the personality of these people. And so you've got Cisco who's sort of weird and and sleazy Kira and sort of Ditsy Dax and stuff. Do you know what? I'm not sure. Terry Power knew how to act at this point in the show. No, I, look, I, I actually kind of like, I actually secretly like that more than anything else because... She's sitting there, like kind of looking off into space and then just starts going... It happens quite early on. I really like it. But, but it's stupid. Like, and so this is about nothing. This is about a conflict between people that we don't know about. We don't even know their names. We don't care. They're all dead. Like, like, what? We learn nothing about our characters and we learn nothing about the people that are inhabiting them. So what's the fucking point? No, exactly. And that's, I mean, this was Cursman Track. And you have proven time and again that thematically whatever plots are going on in Kurtzman Trek. They usually marry them up and there is a unifying theme. There's none of that here. They're not even thinking on that level here are they? They're thinking... I think they're thinking going back to the conflict at the end? Like, do we go back to Kira and Cisco resolving? Yeah, there's a nice scene at the end where the pair of them basically. Well, that was a thing, wasn't it? And she goes off and he plays with his clock. Do you remember what the payoff to this season is? Do you remember what the very last scene of this season is? And it's in the hands of the prophets, which I think is a really strong episode. And in that episode, Kira throws her weight behind Vedic Wynn, who is there to take down Keiko's school because it's a non- yeah teaching non-religious. Yeah, it's God, it's in fact, that's more appropriate now, isn't it? I should put that on now. Um, and the last scene of the episode is, uh, because it's somewhere in the middle of that episode. Wait one sec. Wait, look on screen. So I give the Valerian there. He's, I reckon he's like .89 of a Boma. That is such a shitty low effort alien. It looks so stupid. Oh, good. I love the fact we've got the Beaumont scale. I didn't even see it. Where's he gone? Oh my god. So miserable. Like he had to have... I can't remember. I don't care. He was really shockingly shit. You got 2 nostrils. A lot of extra... Oh, like of 8 or 9 nostrils and like really lank sort of crappy hair. There he is. Oh my god. Oh my god, look how stupid that is. That hair looks like a mop, doesn't it? It's terrible. I just paint someone fucking green or something. I'll call them an Andori. We don't need that. 9.one, 9.one of her Beaumont, all right? 9.one? Yeah, I reckon he's, I reckon he's getting very close to the sort of... Because this is one of the good scenes. Anything between Cork and Odo in this episode is great. I actually really quite like this and there is something really funny that I actually can't remember. So I'm going to read the... Oh, the fact that I was trying to be so casual and he's like, oh so did you hear it? Did you hear anything being said about those Klingons? And then I was like, crafty Odo tonight, aren't we? That's right. And he doesn't want to get the reputation for being helpful. You know what? He requires a relationship that always hits. It's just 2 incredibly strong actors, isn't it? Well, exactly right. But and well drawn characters. Look, this is the moment where he realises that crafty tonight Odo. That's so good. great. What is he wearing, Quark? I used to God, those cow is. They're so good. I think he overplays it a little bit in the scene with Julian a bit later with the comedy neck brace. I kind of thought, oh, okay, right, you know, that's a little bit too much. I want satisfaction. Yeah, yeah. At the end. When he's got caught, yeah. Yeah, yeah, that's right. Oh, God. And so, yeah, I don't know. I mean, this is okay. We will see this a lot in the coming 6.5 years. It's not like there are not lots of other scenes between Odo and Quark doing this kind of thing. You know, what's the best way? in better episodes. It's very, very best one is where one little ship and they've been regrown at the end, right? And the whole scene is between Quark and Bashir and O'Brien that have been miniaturised and now regrown. And Odo's kind of in the back of the scene and he's like, hmm. Are you sure that they've put you back to the right size? And Corp's like, actually, you do look a little bit on the petite side and they're like, oh, shit, to the infirmary. And there's a pair of them stand there and go, ha, ha, and just laugh. So then we talked over the hero special effect here just now. It doesn't look painful though. I do think it looked quite painful the way his head flapped like that. Yeah, yeah. Look, it looked kind of terrible, but it like it's an attempt and it is something that we haven't seen before. So I'm here for it. And it is basically from here on in, there's a scene with a little bit of sort of wobbly purple mist a bit later on and then we're done. That sounds... You know after with acidic alpha deal. You know, when he turned into Alexander Sidic in series season four, is that he suddenly realised he could play the role naturalistically rather than theatrically. So you watch him from where the Warrior goes, and he's basically playing himself, but very charming. Until that point, he's doing this very awful upper class British sort of accent, you know. Yeah. I mean, I like him. I mean, I like... I know people thought he was irritating. But he's not good here. And there's another one called, I think the passenger, did I dream though? Oh, that's the worst performance he ever gave. Not remember. I can even quote you the bit where he is revealed to be the evil killer, Vantica, and Cor goes into the airlock and he goes, not at all, gentlemen. I've been expecting you. It's so terrible. So bad. But this is bad. Like, this is the scene where I thought, oh, I see, this is just bullshit. I don't care. And you see, look at the script. They're still talking about the current situation between Odo and Odo, between Cisco and Kira, where it's, you know, arguing about the Valerians. And so if that had been this, if there was a more interesting kind of conflict, that people were falling into sides over anyway, and then it kind of got heightened by the space problem. I don't know. Yeah, well, at least it, it would lead somewhere. There'd be a development. It would still be about our characters too. It would still be about our characters. Progress was before this and they reached like a conclusion with their relationship at that and we should have been moving beyond that now. And after this, it doesn't really happen again. I remember in the homecoming, which is the 1st episode of series two, phenomenal episode. Um, where Cisco sits down and goes, I need a runabout and he's like, well, I need to know where you're going. Oh, I'm off to free a prisoner of the water from a Kardassian war camp. And Cisco goes, oh, right. You know, like, and they, they, they've reached that point where where, you know, they can properly communicate with each other and he understands her. And this is a bizarre anomaly at this point in the season, you know? Yeah. And I think Kira overplays the anger in the same way she overplayed it in emissary. Like she learned to tone that down throughout the season and suddenly she's just all aggression again. You know, there's no substitute to it. And and then making Cisco play it like this. So I don't know that he's doing the funny voice at this point, but he's sort of hunched over the desk. He's a very much smaller and less imposing physical presence than he is normally. He's got his clock plans in front of him on the sort of little pad thing. And like, what are we doing? What are we doing? He's not recognisable. You know, in Sarah's 4, he comes alive and he's very energetic and masculine and he's a really powerful presence in the show. If he then started playing it like this, then, you would notice. I can't see any great difference between the very quiet way he's playing Cisco in the 1st season anyway. I think that there is... I think that there's a kind of repressed. I think I think he's bottling something up. Do you know what I mean? Like, I think that there is, he is physically imposing and he is potentially threatening, but he's playing it down. Well, I think he gets a great scene later when he really attacks that Majoran man and throws him over ops. You remember, he punches him in the face of that. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. But he is very he's suddenly very unpredictable there. And that's a bit more interesting than just being a bit bored. So can we talk about some calm and how he's doing with this? Well, look, we talk. We talk, it doesn't seem very fair. Because the only 2 Brian episodes we've really watched have been ones where he's not playing O'Brien. Oh, yeah, power play. And he was pretty, he was getting possessed more than that as well if I'm honest. Yeah, I do think he's very reliable normally. Yeah, yeah. Oh, I think so too. And playing the normal character and he's kind of likeable and stuff like that. I think he's fine. Yeah, but sometimes when they give him like, I don't know if you remember the hard time where he has to pull off the fact that he's suicidal at the end of the episode and he's crying and holding the face. And no, I think it's really, really well played. But he's never at his best when he's possessed. Sorry. You don't need to say that about a Star Trek episode. Yeah, there are many other shows. Nathan, you're never at your best when you're possessed, all right? No, no. Watch out because there's a purple glow behind you right now. There really is. And look at this scene, right? This is the most static and blowing fucking scene. Like, they're sitting in the runabout. It's just ended, just in time for my rant. They're sitting in the fucking runabout. They're looking for what, bits of the, um, Oh, Siri, I think has started taking dictation of everything that I'm saying. amazing. Yeah. They're sitting in the fucking runabout. They're finding bits of the ship or something. I hate to break this to you, Nathan. There are many shots like that across TNG and early DS9. Oh, I know, but they just sit there. The lights, like the stars don't move. They stop moving the ship, but you would never tell because literally nothing happens. There's no exterior shot at the runabout doing anything at all. Even though they must have heaps of shots in the cash. TOS episodes where cameras were going in over shoulders, zooming down from the top. Yeah, this is super boringly directed. That was old as well. You know, Cliff bowl. Yeah, he's good. He is good. He directs... A whole race of barbers named after him. He directs the adversary in at the end of series three, where the changing's on the ship, and that has got some real muscle to it the direction of that. So I think this was the 1st DS9 he did. So this is him trying to prove himself at him. Wow, that's depressing. You know, there was this whole thing about Kira, like being sort of aggressively sexy, yeah. Yeah, I don't buy it because in later seasons. Do you remember when she sang Fever at the piano? And she was... I mean, I was on the turn watching that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't get what's going on at all when she was the intendant and she had a van and one arm and a woman on the other and she was in a milk bath, you know? She's a very sexy woman and she can play sexy really well, but I don't really know what's going on here. And it's sort of a bit off putting in retrospect as well when you kind of know that they kind of eventually decide to pair these 2 off. Um, and I think they work really well and their relationship's really interesting and this is just a sort of sort of shitty low rent parity of that, I think. Is this, oh, I don't think we're heading to the bit where she goes to Quarks now and comes onto Dax. Oh, there's a ship docked on the on the thing. Can you explain to me? I wasn't really sure about the plot of this. So is the is the same revolution occurring with the same personalities each time these purple spheres go in people's heads? I don't know. I think so. I don't know. But there's no indication of it. Like, if it was a purple sphere thing that just caused you to, you know, be a big asshole and kind of fight with your commanding officer or something, or, you know, inspired some kind of people picking sides, even that, that's something. Like, you know, you can imagine an episode about like political division or something, you know, the way that we that we form these groups and and and, I don't know, alliances or something like that. Like there's something possibly, I don't know. I think unless it's about Kira and Cisco and how their relationships developing, what's the point? And given that she's behaving like a weird sex version of Kira, and he's like a fucking idiot. Like, I don't even know what he is. Do you remember? Do you remember the objection as the DS9 when it 1st came out though? It wasn't boldly going. I want one of these drinks. I want one of these. That's a modella apparatif, you know. The blue looks really nice. Where did they get these space drink names from? I know. Do you know the best one? I'll say check out the Tronia. The best one is the warp core breach, where he puts in the drink and it all, and it all foams out.. My grandfather died in a warp core breach. Coming up. And Bashir goes, no, no, it's not that bad of a night. Don't worry. don't want that. No, no, do you remember, do you remember the objections that DS9 wasn't on a spaceship? It wasn't boldly going, strangely worlds, blah, blah, blah. The last thing they should have been doing it because there were a lot of cynics. There were a lot of people that were doubtful about it is having an episode where the commander looked bored about everything that's going on. And the rest of the crowd, like, Dax was there with her, like, you know, a hand on her cheek going, Like, if you just switched on to DS9 and you were a bit cynical, you'd be like, wow, this is exactly what I did, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, we've talked before about the difference between a Star Trek show on a show setting the Star Trek universe, and this is the 1st one of the latter, and I think it proves that it's a great idea. It's something super interesting, you know, where you see people boldly exploring things in spaceships all the time, but it's actually fun to see what this world is like when you're not in the spaceship. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But what they needed to do was make this setting as exciting as possible in this 1st year and they just didn't do that. So they don't quite know what to do. And so they've given them a kind of planetary system with a bunch of moons so we can go to different places with just a run about. Eventually they kind of go, fuck it, we'll need the defiant, you know, like whatever. And I think probably that works because it's not being used to boldly go. It is being used as a warship or whatever because that's their thing. And what happens is when they do their, their kind of reboot pilot which is where the warrior, is then that's why they should have done in the beginning, they do make it exciting and have a bloody great battle scene at the end of this story, and I know you require surprise at how static it was, because it was still made you know, 15, 20 years ago. But at the time, that was big budget and impressive, you know, and that's kind of what I should have been doing here, I think. Yeah. But this is, and I suggest to you off mic. This is absolutely the tipping point where they kind of say, and there are a few sub TNG episodes in series 2, but there's not that many, really. They start to go down. No, we've got interesting characters and we're in an interesting place and let's explore that. And what comes after this is duet in the hand of the prophets. And then the 3 part, um, but during the Civil War story at the beginning of series 2. And that is where they figure out, this is what we should be doing politics. Yeah, that's what we can do. Interesting relationships, you know, summit with a bit of substance. Not this not this old nonsense. Yeah, no, this is ridiculous. And that 3 part of which I haven't watched probably is terrific. You should go back and watch that. It's really good. Yeah, yeah. Because it's sort of a bit perennial. isolationists and stuff like that. And, you know, this is a society that's kind of recovering from a long occupation and a brutal one and trying to find a way of living now that they're kind of by themselves. Look, she threw him into a wall and I just don't give a shit. It has that fabulous, what's it, Minister Jaro, who's played by Langella giving. And he's in scenes against Louise Fletcher. And it's like, it's like sizzling drama. It's terrific. and you're like, wow, wow. you know. But just the fact that they did a three-parter. You know, so they were showing consequence after consequence after consequence. We were like, okay, something's changing here. Yeah, it's series 2, episode one, isn't it? It really is an absolute course correction. This is what the show is now. Do you remember what else I do? Do you remember what else I do? You'd be so happy. They go outside. They do this huge action sequence in a sun bleached quarry. Oh my god. That's amazing. Look, amazing that they get outside. This is really a bit shit. And we did have quite a fun episode, but like Quarks overplaying it in a way that's actually kind of unpleasant to watch and like the Comedy Deck Brace is, you know, just so low effort, like just so fucking low effort. No one's really trying at all. I feel sorry for Renee, because he's trying to give this so much Welly, isn't he? trying to get you. There's a deep mystery here to solve, you know, and I'm the only man for the job, but it's like, oh, really? Well and that's the other thing. Like, what if you have this situation where the only 2 people immune from it are Odo and Quark, and they have to team up together to solve the problem, there's probably a bit of an element of that in what we see, but how much more fun could that have been? You know, those two. No, they did that better in Babel, though, earlier in the season. Oh, okay. Where everyone else has succumbed to the virus. Oh, they don't. Odo goes, I need you, Corp, to come and to Ops and take control of the station whilst I go and sort this out. And he's standing there with his hands on his lapels, you know like, I'm in charge now. Yeah, it's great. Or even better. Do you remember civil defence when the Cardassian defensing takes over the stage. and the pair of them are stuck in security office together. It's like, you mean, you mean, I'm stuck here with you? No, it's worse than that. I'm stuck here with you. Bless them. Oh, what's all this about these Klingons? logs. Yeah, yeah. Like, I don't know. And it's such a boring mystery as well. Like, I just couldn't possibly share less. we've seen this before haven't we? Like the USS Britain or something in whatever the hell that episode was and the naked now episodes where it's always, you know the previous ship that this happened to and they got destroyed or whatever. Like this is a thing that they've done over and over again. I think when DF9 goes over a cliff in the future doing TNG style episodes. Do you remember Meridian when the Brigadoon planet appears? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's got some, like, really nice direction from Jonathan Frase. They go outside into a lovely park and this is some visual interest or fascination where Loaxana Troy brings the love virus on. And, you know, but... It is terrible. But some of the couplings they do, like you've got Kira and Bashir snogging their arses off in one of the parties and things. And it's quite, you know, there's just nothing to this, though, is there? No. Well, and because it's not the characters that we care about as well. Like Chief O'Brien's unrecognisable and I just couldn't possibly care. What is going on with Chief O'Brien? don't know. So is he trying to take control of the station? Like, because he's in Cisco's chair right now throwing his weight around. Yeah, maybe Cisco is kind of like his figurehead, but he's the one who's really in charge. And I think some of the dialogue later makes it sound like it's Miles versus Kira. rather than, you know, Cisco versus Kira. There's never been any hint that... Well, here's Ryan's orders. No, have any tension? So that just doesn't make any sense, you know? No, no sense. Who cares? Absolutely. And so you've got Cisco. The person with whom the conflict was at the very beginning. And when they, before it got really stupid, they were still at least kind of acting as if it was still the Valerian nostril faced people that they were interested in here. Like, what's he doing? What's he doing? He's drawing up his plans for his amazing clock. Yeah, he's being slightly camp, you know, like just a little bit kind of a little bit sort of camping a little bit kind of weak. And I just sort of think, what's that? even is that? I think you're right that there's supposed to be like this level of restrained anger, because later on, he's really calm in a scene and he's talking kind of in a monotone. And then all of a sudden he goes like, never get me a phaser. Oh, get rid of Kira. You know, he's suddenly like, but... Yeah, is he Richard II or something? Like it's some, he's sort of mercurial. he's a little bit of feat you know, he's up in a towel making fucking clocks or whatever. I never understand. When these things happen, why they've just called in the Federation. everyone's behaving really mad here, all right? Can you just take them all away and see what's going on? Can you come in and just gun them down? come in and take them to that planet from that lower decks episode. Let's get a drawback from PowerPlay in her phaser. take them all out. right. What is it supposed to be about? What is it? And it's just so weird. And like he backs away. Like, what's happening? I just don't, like, what are we doing? This is literally quintessential Joe Manosky. What the fuck is this about? It's nothing. And I know you love it, but all the way through maths. I'm literally going, what is it? What's going on? Yeah, yeah. Oh my god, look at Kira with her feet up on the desk. God. Everyone's sitting in this chair. Wouldn't it make more sense if she'd have like changed her look a little bit and made herself a bit more feminine? This is how she's playing it. It's so weird. She's got her tits with her in this scene. Look at that. Whoa. Um, yeah, ugh. I just got nothing. I just wish it was Kira doing this, you know, like this is so boring because it's no one that I care about. Everyone is behaving oddly. Are they in peril? I guess they're in peril. They're in peril, because they're kidding one another. potential. Yeah, I guess so. I think we both know that the show's not going to end. Well, no, I know. that about actual good peril that's in the show. Do you know what I mean? you could come into the visitor and go, well, yeah, you know you're watching the visitor and you'll say, and Dax, and, you know they knock out characters. When it's real, DS one. You know it's not going to be serious. series one, for God's sake they're not going to recount. They're not going to kill a beloved major character in series one of a Star Trek show. Surely. Certainly not with a massive dramatic red blob on their cheek. TNG is a trent setter, I'm telling you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, she was out. She was right because... was kind to you later. Go on. Well, all I'm saying is that Denise Crosby had a point because look at what they're doing 5 years later or whatever. It's still just absolute bollock. This is... I would say this is the exception rather than the norm, no. No, I know. I know. Like, even the, you know, things like Move Along Home is trying to be weird. Let's let's mount a defence of move along home in that it's a better episode than dramatis personae. What do you reckon? Well, you could mount a defence for any episode in the fact that it's a very... Dramatist persona. Are we doing threshold? No, Fresho's got that amazing ending where Tom Paris, Lizard, and Janeway, Lizard, fucking have Lizard Baby. Have sex. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that is pretty great. People think that's implausible, you know. What about, is it demons? What's the one where all their faces are melting off and they're not really characters after all? Of course, oblivion. God almighty, that's a bad episode. Move on live. It's worth it. Just for the look on April Bruce's face when he has to see Alamoraine. So good. And it's memorable. People remember it. No one ever thinks fondly back on this one. This is so bad. Oh, look, we're watching more fucking Klingons. Even you complained about discovery, for God's sake. Dreadful episode in series 6, and most of series 6 is pretty damn good, but that driftful episode where Barile comes back from the Mirror Universe. Oh, yeah. Even that's got the scenes where sexy intendant Kira comes over puts on Kira's uniform, it's like, ooh, give me a massage and she's beating the shit out of people, you know? I think they realise later on, even when they're onto a dud, we can do something with this. Let's do something with it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So look, this is a weird space clock. It's quite pretty. I like it. And you know, it stays in his office. That is the thing that I like. So he has no idea how it got there. He has no memory of building it, but he kind of comes to himself and sees that there's a clock that he's built, while he's been away or unconscious or possessed, and he just keeps it, and it becomes part of the thing. And I think it's telling that that's the only thing that he gains from this episode. He doesn't learn a valuable lesson about anything. His character doesn't change in any way. He doesn't learn anything about the core relationship he has at the moment, which is his relationship with Kira as his 2IC on the station, learns nothing at all. But it's kind of like I put myself through this Deep Space 9 episode and all I got was this lousy clock. You know? It's not loud. I think it's quite pretty. loudly. nice. I think it is quite good. It's Galifraean, I think. Yeah, one by the way, it kind of goes off in different directions and has interesting symbols on it and things. Look, they didn't keep anything from masks. All right. They didn't even keep that wretched mask that he wears. No, I reckon it probably got destroyed the 1st time it went through the dishwasher, actually. That time, Deanna Troy drove the ship. It got smashed then. Yeah, along with that. Okay. So now what's what's Julian doing? Well, because Julian's... He's playing the fence with poisoning them. He's playing the fence out. okay, he goes, right, so I could be on Kira's side. could be on I don't know which way it's gonna go. So, but he's handing out, yeah, poison that's going to knock somebody out. Oh I don't know. I've lost the will to live at this. At least with Strange New World. Yeah, that we watched. Not World's World. The Enterprise episode. Like, we hated it so much. Yeah, yeah. No, I was getting properly angry about how dreadful it was. Whereas this is just boring, you know, like at least, at least Strange New World had the good manners to be actually offensive, I think. But do you know how rare is to come across? I told you, Pillar said when he came into TNG character first. I don't care about the plot as much as the character. I want a character reason behind every scene, behind every episode. I mean, and that just doesn't happen here. And that's so rare for DS9. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, even for television. Even if it's like really laboured. Sometimes it can be terribly. Yeah. The scene at the end where you're like, well, what did we learn about ourselves, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's a basic thing that you have to do. You know, like, and just because this is Star Trek, just because you know, someone's going to write a memory alpha article about it. It doesn't absolve it of the responsibility to be about something and, you know, maybe to do something with our characters because I think, you know, we said with TNG, the characters are essentially their jobs, sort of a combination of their jobs and the actors performances, right? It's not really about, you know, Deanna likes chocolate or, I don't know, you know, Riker has some readily identifiable personal characteristic of some kind, but I just can't think of it right now. Like, that's, that, that's the job is you watch them solve space problems in an ingenious way, you see some weird things, you know there's the odd joke or the odd camp moment, and you enjoy yourself, and that's fine. But with something like Deep Space 9, that really does centre on the characters, that's not enough. This is not a space problem show. This is a space problem, isn't it? This is a space problem because it's not about, it doesn't emerge out of the characters or anything like that, and it just feels wrong. Like even something even like the storyteller. Yeah, like it's a bad storyteller. So O'Brien and Bashir and how their relationship's growing. Yeah, it's got a really stupid space problem and it's got a great space. You said a few camp moments, that bit where he's up there with the Dow Rock cloud coming towards him. He's wearing that red robe and he's... Once upon a time, there was a dark rock and the people were stronger. I mean, it's the campus thing you've ever seen in your life. Oh, here we go. I like this there. I do like this bit. Yeah, he throws the guy. Oh, he just slap Dax. That really hurt. Don't do that Oh, now they're trying to poison one another. When Avery Brooks bears his teeth. I think it's always pretty scary. That's not his Cisco performance at all. That's not his Cisco performance. You know, like even when he's being really violent, he's like super contained as Cisco. There is a line a 2nd though. Nathan, where she comes in with a phaser riot and it's like proper cliffhower acting. She points the phaser, right, the camera goes, drop it now. Well, it's great. Do you think they're enjoying having the chance to play other characters? Oh, maybe. I wish I was enjoying it though. I mean like it's... It's so boring I'm trying to think of another DS9 episode with like a space problem like this, which doesn't really have anything to it. And I can't think of one. I've been kind of going through the seasons, trying to think where like there's that one in series 4, which is a bit basic, um, called Starship Down, where they're being consumed by the Gemini. But there's like 4 different plots going on. And you've got a resolution to like the Bashir Dak's thing. You've got a scene between Quark and the guy is trying to con trying to, um, yeah, use a missy. And there's a wharf learning how, you know, to work with interpersonal relationships in the workplace. And there's just stuff happening, you know? I mean, that is that's disaster, isn't it? Like it's disaster. Like there's something happens to the ship and 4 people kind of happen. But because Star Trek's a space problems show. It's the things that can do with its characters are fairly limited. So you get Deanna learning that she can command, you get Picard. He has something about children in his one paragraph bio, and so they get him to do that. I mean, they take Data's head off. We don't really, that's not character thing that's just been funny. There's probably funner moments in disaster. I think Starship Mine's actually a better episode. Starship Down is a better episode just because the characters are better drawn. And it reaches, reaches like resolution... Yeah. Yeah. It's got that wonderful bit between, do you remember, between Kira and Cisco where he's dying and she's like, you're the emissary. You cannot die. And then she she admits, you know, you're my boss and I've never quite known how to work with you. And at the end he invites her to the baseball game and she puts the cap on and just grins and it's lovely. you know, it's really nice. There's none of that here, isn't it? No, no. Well, because our characters are basically absent. They all playing other people. It's so boring He's ducks doing. She's just like, oh, well, it looks like they've got some 4 feel so well. My... So it just so let's let's get back to the premise here for a second. So apparently there's an orb thing that does what that stores the personalities of the people, some people. inputs them into other people who then just kill the hell out of one another. You know what episode does this rinse and repeat. Exact premise but a 1000000 times better. Do you remember Voyager's Memorial, where they come across that memorial and then they play out the conflict on Voyager and they're all getting memories of the conflict and it's it's quite dark and it's it's quite thoughtful as well. And it's doing this, but it kind of has a point to it. Or far more of this stuff anyway. No, no, I think I think it does. There is something about like remembering historic conflicts or historic cruelties or something. There is something in that episode. No, it's the fact that a load of civilians were killed during wartime. But some of the Voyager characters are having to play that out. Yeah. And it's quite powerful. So, but it's like a, it's like a space memorial, like the one in the inner light, where it's a thing that's constructed so that people can experience this part of history and kind of learn from it or less not even make the comparison between this and the inner light, right? Well, you see, it's very similar. There's a thing. And then everyone acts weird. This is the shittest scene in the entirety of DS9 where it's like you know what disturbs me, how I gave my friendship to you people. And I'm like, what are you talking about? Yeah, yeah. No. But he has a scene. He has a scene in the hands of the prophets. where this plays out again, where, um, Kai Wynn says basically you've, you've come here just to destroy us, you're the devil. And Cisco says, I've worked with these people, they know what I'm here to do, and then he kind of reaches out to Kira and Kira endorses him. And it's this scene, but just done a 1000000 times. By our actual characters rather than sort of shitty bargain basement Richard II. I don't even think you can you can call this a space problem. When the solution is, you're going to open an airlock and suck the orbs out into space. Well, you can only do that if you're in space. It's actually literally a space solution. Can you explain something to me? They do this quite a lot where they open rooms out of space and they just sort of hold on to things and a bit of wind ruffles their hair. And I don't think that's what would actually happen. No, we're remembering disaster when that happens and they're hanging on to the things and their kind of legs are up in the air. Hold on, everyone. That's so bad. And like again, show us the outside of the fucking thing. Don't just open the door in the studio. Get us a shot. Oh, look, there's a pile. Then all sucked out, but the orps literally are out in a second. It doesn't have any arms, so it can't cling to any of the plastic boxes. It's all very clear. All right, so the problem solved. Oh my god. Right. Do you know what? I was getting very tense. minutes of this left. I was getting very tense for a niche that I weren't going to get out of this. Yeah, yeah. Let's see if we can see any conceivable difference in their performances now. Well, there's, they've all had, the hair is a problem. The ladies have bad hair now as a result. Well, because of that wind, we have learned something. Yeah. Yeah. See, look, now you see that kind of long shot of ops. That's an interesting set. You could shoot that in interesting ways. different levels, you know? No, I agree. And it was, you know, the, every space was so well-defined and so you know, there's interesting angles and backgrounds and textures and colours and practical lighting all over the place in this set. I think this set is beautiful, but I do think that it needs some reflective surfaces. Well, you were wasting that, didn't you? Do you remember that time when they brought Kirioshi into Ops? He was down in the pit and the whole scene was shot from his point of view, looking up at everyone looking down at him? They can do it. Yeah. Yeah. You know, like, didn't the pilot cost $12000000 to make, including all these sets and the sets are just, you know, like it was a massively expensive TV show for the time. And I think the sets are great. you know, like a genre sets are good. Terrific. Yeah, they do lots of interesting things like over the 7 seasons. Yeah. You can make interesting shots happen here. Did you see what she just said? Did you see that? She went, well, I know none of us are responsible for it, but I love you really. Ta-ra. Yeah, Jesus Christ, I'm like nothing, like nothing. But hang on. At the beginning of the episode, she had a real bugbear, you know like, so where's that going? No, it's gone. Oh, look, duet started on Netflix. why didn't we watch that? The randomiser is a cruel beast, you know. Well, you beat dirt. You were the one who wanted a terrible episode and can I congratulate you on extraordinary success in finding one? really, really not very good at all. I think that was our greatest challenge yet to try and find anything. Anything at all, substance to say about dramatic. No, no, really bad. Um, I will just say one thing, and that is, okay, we'll watch much more DS9, but it won't be as bad as this. No, no, almost by definition. All right, it's time for us to choose our episode for next time and it's my turn to roll after the signal success of our strategy last week, and I have decided to choose 2 series of Star Trek to choose from among 2 series of Star Trek. And those are the... Can I take a guess? Because I've got a feeling that, well, you might do 190s and one Kurtzman just to, you know, shake it up. Oh, okay. No, no. So I'm choosing the 2 series that I know least well and that it's most likely that I will get an episode that I've watched once or possibly even not at all. So this is going to be terra incognita for me. It's Star Trek the original series. I can't guarantee that I've seen all of the episodes of that. And there are certainly episodes that I've only seen once or have had on in the room when I've been there. And it's Star Trek Enterprise. And surprise. As we speak just a couple of days ago, we had an election here in Australia, and rather than watch the election night coverage, I was hate watching series 3 of Enterprise. Ah, dear, I want to be shell shot. very strong. I think there's some good stuff in there. I really, really hate the entire premise anyway. So let's see if we go there. So I have the Randomiser, which can be found at untitled Star Trek project.com slash Randomiser, as I say every week, and I'm about to press the button. I'll ask you, before you do, like, do you, we're 6 months into this now. And I still get that fabulous sense of suspense every time I press that button. I'm a bit excited. I am a bit excited. Okay. And I do press it at home sometimes. Like, maybe some of the listeners do as well. Like if I'm at a loss for some Star Trek to watch, I often let the randomiser choose for me. Yeah, but it's a cruel beast, I'm telling you, it always chooses crap for me. I'm telling you. I know. I program that email. All right, here goes. Okay, your random Star Trek enterprise episode is series one episode 12, Silent Enemy. Every time we get Enterprise, The 1st one that comes up is always series one. Roll it again. Okay, all right. Oh, this is a good one, actually, that I kind of know. But it's been a long time since I've seen it. Let's see what you think. It's season 2 of Star Trek, the original series, episode three, the Changeling. I've never seen it It's one of the episodes that I think is part of the inspiration for Star Trek, the Motion Picture, which you promised me on the most sacred thing you know that you wouldn't watch it at all until we were going to record it, and then what did you do? Tell the listener. I only watched half of it because it was so bloody boring. You know what? Can I just tell you, there was one secret, right? I couldn't believe it, where they were approaching the enterprise in this shuttlecraft, right? It went on for nearly 10 minutes and it kept cutting back to Kirk and Scotty's reactions for 10 fucking minutes. I mean, the model work was glorious, but I was like, is this ever going to move on from this effect shot, you know? I think that you have to give it a pass because it's suddenly Star Trek on the big screen, everyone's back together for the 1st time in years and they are absolutely milking it. And plus, of course, they have 2001, so they want to be kind of a bit stately and self-important. I'm very keen to see the new remastered version. I thought visually it was one of the most impressive things I've ever seen Star Trek do. Like, it was telling a lot of the story just through visuals. Yeah, yeah, which was very different, but it was really slow. It is very slow. We tend to call it Star Trek the motionless picture. That would be accurate. What do you think? The change thing? Yeah, do you know what, Nathan, every time you and I talk about the original series. I have a fucking ball. Yeah. It's really fun and I'm growing really to love it a great deal. And of course, now we have Strange New Worlds, which I think is kind of the closest in sort of sensibility to the original series you know, closer than any other version of Star Trek, I think. You know, it's astonishing the reaction that strange new wealth is hard. It's been just entirely positive, hasn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Look, I mean, you know, there are people out there who still think it's in a parallel universe because the sets have reflective surfaces and and, you know, they're big and stuff, so it can't be our prime universe or whatever. But I just think it has been really good in a really Star Trek-y way. And that's what I really look for in Star Trek. And whenever, you know, even though Star Trek, the original series isn't my 1st Star Trek, whenever a subsequent Star Trek kind of harkens back to it, I feel a little warm glow inside. So I'm absolutely happy to watch the Changeling, I think. At this point, everybody will have heard us waxing lyrical about our 1st episode, which we both absolutely adored. But I don't think there's been an original series episode that we've watched. that we haven't really loved, even if it was pretty terrible. Well, I think Spot's brain is boring. Oh, nice, and that was one of the best recorders we ever did. I think it's less fun than it ought to be. Like an episode where a woman in thigh high boots steals Spock's brain and runs off with it should be more fun than that episode ended up being and that's a shame. But you have to like the concept at least. And I think changing is a properly good episode. So I could be proved wrong, but I'm really looking forward to seeing it. Wow, let's do it. You've been listening to Untitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford and Nathan Bottomley. We're online at untitled Star Trek Project.com, where you can find links to our Twitter, Facebook, and YouTube channel. Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceran, and the theme was composed by Cameron Lamb. This episode was recorded on the 23rd of May 2022 and released on the 3rd of June. We'll see you next time for Star Trek the original series, The Changeling. I've been willing to stop there. Jesus Christ, that was a toughie, I'm telling you. Oh, my God. How do we keep talking? It's so bad. I was really drunk during the last bond finger. And towards the end of this shitty film that we're doing. I just keep hearing myself saying, oh, God. Oh Jesus Christ. Like because it's so bad. Oh, dear. Oh, if I does something good to watch. All right. I can't guarantee that I'm going to do that. What's your parameters? I am not going to tell you. It's got to be better than that, surely. Yeah, yeah, we'll try and pick something good. Oh, imagine when we do something like Way of the Warrior, though. Oh my god, it's so good. That would be pretty great, but that's not going to happen this week. All right. If you have violent objections to this, then we can roll again, but I have an idea. Never. Get me a phaser. I'll get rid of Nathan. Jesus Christ. it now. Alright. All right, it's time for us to choose our episode for next time.