Rise

[00:22]

Hey, Joe. Hi.

So, we're back, and we're aboard the USS Voyager for season three, episode 19 Rise, which 1st aired on the 26th of February 1997.

So it's nearly 30 years old.

It's a story by Jimmy Diggs who wrote Dr. Bashir, I presume.

And a few, a few episodes that we mentioned last time when we were rolling this because he's also responsible for Elogium, which was his 1st story.

This concerning flight.

The Omega directive, which played an important role in the Starfleet Academy season finale.

Infinite regress and gravity.

And I think we probably rejected 4 of those in our epic.

It's not a great CV, Nathan.

[01:23]

Dr. Pashir, I presume, is right at the top there.

It's not his 1st one.

I think that a low gym is the one that gets him the job.

However, I want to lay a fair.

I don't know.

I want to lay a fair amount of the blame for this on the author of the screenplay, who is Brannan Braga, and I think that this exhibits a lot of his flaws.

And he describes this as a rather flaccid script, according to memory alpha, and I think he's right.

Well, whilst she was writing it afterwards?

Afterwards, yeah.

Well, he wrote the thing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Make it less flaccid, man.

Well, he could have done that at the time, but he didn't.

Now, it's also directed by Robert Shearer, of whom we have a fair amount to say.

He directed 11 episodes of TNG, including some real bangers.

He did chain of command part one, for instance.

Oh wow.

He directed Shadow Play.

And we have already seen him.

[02:24]

That's a DS9 episode, I think.

Is it the one that gets remained?

the one with the little girl.

Yeah, with the holograms, yeah. much better than the Enterprise one.

And we have already done his other episode of Voyager, which is state of flux.

Oh, we love that, didn't we?

Yeah, we love that.

You are a fool, Captain, and you're a fool to follow her.

Oh, we love Cesca, don't we?

Awesome.

Robert, share.

What went wrong here then?

I don't know.

This is his last one.

And he had been going for a long time and, you know, who knows how much money there is, but I just think that eventually you run out of steam on these kinds of things because I think this is really boringly directed and I think it is not very well written.

And like I can't help feeling the entire time I'm watching it, that there is actually something here, but it just needed to be done better.

I don't think the whole idea is misconceived.

[03:27]

I think that the idea of the space elevator works really well in the...

Do you remember, we have already done the episode of Lower Decks, which includes a space elevator, which was the least dangerous game?

Remember, where Ransom and Mariner are working on a space elevator?

Were they taking the piss out of this?

No, I don't think they were.

I think that they...

At some point the space elevator becomes a thing.

I think it's in the air.

And that sort of orbital tether where, so one end of it's attached to a satellite in geostationary orbit, and there's a big long, you know, impossibly long and heavy string, which could never ever work, but like whatever, and you've got the sort of maglev kind of engine thing.

Like, I think that's an inventive idea.

I think if they had more money and they were better at CG, the visuals could have been really impressive.

They're not I've never seen heaven depicted in quite such a cardboard fashion before.

It's really not.

[04:28]

But you know what it is?

It's like Charlie and the Chocolate Factory's great glass elevator, you know, that goes up and just keeps going.

It's such a magical idea.

I don't know how they possibly managed to find a plot this tedious to get up with that.

But like the idea of a story that opens with, you know, a disaster, that voyagers jumping straight into it, straight into the action, and they're destroying rocks.

I know shit. that hasn't worked.

We've got to go down to the planet.

Great.

We crash on the planet.

How the hell we need to get up back into orbit again.

We're going to go up in this orbital tether.

There's a murderer on the tether that's going to try and kill somebody, like as a as a linear action story.

That's great, right?

But the execution of all of it.

I mean, all of it, you said it.

It's the writing, it's the direction, it's certainly the guest.

I mean, we've never been more murder she wrote of the week with our guest performances this week.

[05:29]

But also as well, how it characterises Chewbok and Neelix.

Now, the idea of sending the 2 of them off together, so they can find some common grounds, yeah?

And, you know, initially being sparky with each other and then learning from each other, that's a brilliant idea for Star Trek premise and they're good characters and they're good actors.

So on paper, this should all work.

Unfortunately, how they characterise Chewbok and Neelix in this.

I don't know that Tuvok learns a fucking thing throughout this episode.

He's so stubborn.

Yeah, I think he does.

And I think he sort of moves over.

Like there are definite, there's a definite sort of closing moment to his arc, which I think kind of works.

But the problem is that it's Brannan Braga, and so he makes 2 Vok into just an asshole.

And, you know, he's someone who's trained cadets, he's someone who's been in Starfleet for ages.

Oh, you sure?

All of these things.

[06:31]

He's Janeway's mentor.

He's highly regarded but he's just a prick in this.

And Neelix, who I think comes off better, is still a whiny, you know, you know, like he's horribly whiny and unlikeable in certain scenes, and when he's kind of losing it, again, like he, these characters are both charming and funny, and in fact, they're really nicely paired together quite a lot of the time because they play off one another.

And I think by 2.5 years in, they would have a better relationship.

And certainly, there's a moment which I think is really quite good, where the female guest star turns on to Vulcan says you're condescending and sarcastic and unpleasant to him.

And I thought that was a really good scene.

Yeah, I like that bit as well.

But we haven't have we seen any evidence of that for the last 2.5 years?

but So frustrating is Nick Nick's hero moment where he stops the orbital tether and says, no, listen to me. you're gonna listen to me because I have instincts for this sort of thing and this is where I'm strong and you're not. and I need you to listen to me.

[07:42]

And he still doesn't listen to him.

Chewbot goes, well, I'm so sorry.

I disagree.

And then he just goes, well, I ain't turning the thing on then.

So you're going to have to listen to me.

Otherwise, we ain't going nowhere.

And I'm thinking, that's no way to resolve this.

It should have been that he was compelling in his argument.

I mean, I think the actual problem is that it just hasn't really been thought through enough.

Neelix is clearly very competent all the way through here and he's good at bringing the best out of people.

There's an amazing scene, I think, where he has a knife held to his throat by one of the guest characters, but he actually retains his call and becomes quite friendly with her.

She's the one who supports him later.

And, you know, that's all done in one scene and he's not a panicky idiot.

He's competent.

He, you know, praises people for doing the right thing.

He's really good.

And then Tuvok actually criticises him for that. and says you should be solving the space engineering problems and stuff.

[08:42]

But Tuvok, you know, he's an officer and he's got a rank.

And like, I don't understand how he can operate if he's unaware that it's necessary to motivate people.

And all of that stuff just seems to me to be kind of, it's a bit like...

It's a little bit like Galileo 7.

Remember?

Like Galileo 7, the subplot, apart from when people are throwing spears at them, limply while wearing gorilla suits, kind of from outside the shuttle.

The thing is that someone doesn't think that Spock is a good commander because he's a Vulcan and he doesn't have feelings and stuff, and we discover, in fact, yes, he is an incredibly great commander.

And it's almost like Branden Braga seen that and just misunderstood what it's about or how it works because this is the opposite of that.

You've got Tuvok who really is a dickhead and a bad commanding officer and you've got Neelix having to deal with that.

And just the whole thing just leaves a terrible taste in your mouth, I think.

[09:45]

The trouble is, I feel like there's a version of Tuvok that is in the writer's guide, which is he's just great sage, Vulcan, Janeway's best friend, taught at the academy, and all of this, yeah.

And that's who he is most of the time.

And this is my issue with Voyager, is then they'll have episodes where they go, well, actually we want sort of this to play out.

So we're going to just forget all of that.

So you get learning curve where he has absolutely no idea how to train people to beat Starfleet cadets.

You've got this.

You've got innocence in series 2 where he's crashed on the planet with all those kids, those horrible moppets, and he doesn't know how to communicate with any of them.

And I'm like, this isn't the person that you try to convince us that Chewbok is on a regular basis.

And you just can't abandon like the characteristics of somebody for the sakes of this half hour story.

I don't know.

But also just the making characters unlikeable, and I have to think that if, why do they do?

[10:47]

Well, I don't know.

I think Braga does it by mistake. and it's what happens to Archer as well, once he gets more creative control.

Yeah, that's brother again, isn't it?

So I have to think it's a Braga thing.

And remember, Braga came on board as the guy who created amazing and fun high concept episodes that weren't particularly character focussed.

This is a character piece.

It should have stuck to it.

This character piece and he can't pull it off, I think.

Let more make Deanna Troyer, Neuropeptides, cake, less make Chewwok an asshole.

Yeah, I mean, do you remember the DS9 episode, The Ascent, where Odo and Quark crash land on that mountain?

You must love it.

It's all set on location on this fabulous, icy mountain in the middle of nowhere.

And they have to rely on each other because the conditions are so terrible.

And of course, they loathe each other and they argue and squabble and it's a bit like this, but really funny, you know?

[11:49]

And the payoff to that episode is the 2 of them.

Um, literally half dead in the infirmary on a pair of beds and he's like, you know what, Quark?

You remember when we was on that mountain, and I said, I hated you, and you said you hated me.

Yes, I just wanted you to know.

I meant every word of it.

And then the pair of them just laugh in the memory and that's how you go out.

But there isn't that sort of ending here.

I think that they were really aiming for Spock and Bones and they were really aiming for Quark and Odo with Neelix and Chewbok.

But I just don't think the writing is there to support what they're trying to do.

It's not clever enough.

It's not, it's not like heartwarming enough either.

You need to have enough moments where you go with the pairing.

Oh, okay.

Even when they're like, God, yeah, I'm going to go see a sign again.

Do you remember that episode where Odo's following around Kira for the whole episode?

[12:51]

Because Shakar's having assassination attempts, and she's moon-eyed for him, and he's absolutely devastated, and then you have Quark come to his quarters, once he's smashed them up, and goes, and you know what?

Like, go and talk to her and he tries to talk to her.

And then at the end of the scene, the court goes, I know you've had soundproofing put into your floor because he's about to walk.

Of course he is.

He likes to keep an eye on him.

He says there's nothing to do with you like that.

And it's really heartwarming and it's a moment where you can see what the friendship is all about.

It's just not here.

The connection isn't here.

And it's really annoying because I think Ethan Phillips and Tim Ross could have delivered a really fantastic relationship.

And it's not him.

Well, on that night.

Let's go and see them trying to find some common ground, shall we?

Absolutely.

Let's do that I will count us in.

[13:52]

Yes.

Rise exclamation mark.

Yeah, bafflingly.

All right.

Amazon Prime. are you doing?

Adding punctuation to voyager episodes.

If there was a law it would be against it.

All right.

Here goes.

Five, four, three, two, one, and we're off.

So I don't like this CG stuff either.

I just don't think it's very good.

Do you?

It's sort of up... coloured and stuff.

But I do like the idea of being dropped in the middle of an exciting, oh, potentially exciting moment.

And I also like that they're helping people, how you rating these guys on the bow mask scale.

They look dismal, don't they?

Look at their faces.

So these are called the knee zoo.

Of course they are.

The knee zoo, you say?

With a Nizu.

Okay.

Um, but we're helping them and I like that.

[14:53]

You know, that should happen more often.

It shouldn't just be evil, intransigent aliens, and we do get one of them later, who's pretty good and fairly high up on the Beaumar scale.

But I do like this.

And I even think that, you know, the banter, the, you know, the, it's not banter, but the techno babble here works really well.

It's a pretty clear threat and we know what it is.

I also like the fact that we're helping them and the feller on the bridge here, whose name I've completely forgotten, who turns out to be the evil man that's behind all of this.

What's his name?

That would be Skla.

Skla.

Skla of the Nizu.

Okay.

We'll go with it.

But a face like a conquer.

His name is Skla.

So the other guy's just called Nizu Ambassador, and he actually turned up as a Klingon in rightful heir, and he's in the Jemhadar.

He's Captain Kio of the USS Odyssey in the DS9 episode.

No.

Oh, we came to a pretty sticky end, didn't they?

[15:55]

Yeah, in that episode.

May I ask about the evil fellow then?

Who plays him?

Because you told me he's in loss.

So he's not in any other Star Trek.

He's called Kelly Connell and he has just, he's a that guy.

He's in everything.

And so if you go to his IMDb page and he's in every TV show.

I think there's some terrible TV show that I've never seen that he's a regular in, but, you know, like he has, you know, TV, regular roles and stuff.

But he's just a guest star in basically everything.

I think he's kind of terrible.

There's an attempt to make him funny and make him unlikely kind of murderer, but all of that's so undercooked that it never really works, I think.

I would just like to say that, um, I know how I sort of uh, rudely say that these people are sort of murder she wrote type actors.

Yeah.

[16:55]

Well, Kelly Connell did in fact turn up in death by demographics.

She wrote episode.

That is really everything.

He's in absolutely everything.

Death by demographics.

Sounds great.

That's awesome.

I think we tick a few boxes there, you and me.

Yeah, the white guy, boss.

We wouldn't have a home, would we?

The homosexual boss.

Okay.

So we're back on board the bridge.

And Janeway actually is pretty great in a couple of scenes here, I think.

Did you say that?

What was that?

He was a member of the production crew called Alan Oppenheimer.

No, that's the Nizo Ambassador.

That's the...

Alan Oppenheim, Oppenheim.

Any relation?

I don't know.

I don't know.

But no, I actually, I did quite like the special effect of the fragment. screaming down into the atmosphere, you know?

[17:57]

I'm thinking, you know what?

At this point in the episode, they are trying to give us some visual interest.

And they're telling the story that we need to hear.

Do you know what I mean?

Like, I think that's quite good.

And I think the scene later where the, you know, Balana cracks open the thing and there's, um, you know, computer-y things inside.

I think that's pretty good too.

Like, it's just telling us the story.

So this is Dr. Vadim, whose name is spelled very oddly.

And we've seen him on untitled Star Trek before, on Titled Star Trek Project before.

He is a Klingon in dramatis personae.

Oh, wow.

He only turns up in the best episodes.

Are those the only 2 redols?

Rise and dramatis persona.

God bless.

Could I ask you a question about kissing?

Oh, how do these guys kiss without putting each other's eyes out?

Exactly.

Look, have you let in for a kiss with the Nazu ambassador?

Yeah, you're going to get his spiky forehead right in your eye.

[19:01]

I have to say that Dr. Vadim, though, like he's got a strong look.

He's got to shave his head and a beard.

I like that, you know, that's a pretty good.

Does he have a spike head?

He does have a spiky head as well.

He also looks like...

Maybe because they're quite dull looking.

I'm only going to give them a 5 on the bone mask out.

I mean, you've got to be ridiculous looking and fun.

I do think that goth, the evil intransigent alien from the something order, who turns up later, is pretty high on the bow mask scale.

Oh, okay, I'll keep an eye out for it.

So many details of rise fall in and out of my head.

So, I mean, I don't dislike this scene either.

Like, I don't dislike this scene, you know, and it's got Ethan talking really, really, really, really fast and doing business, like unable to put his backpack on because he's so excited.

Like, it's not that great, but it's.

I know, but, like, why should he be this nervous about?

Okay, we've 2 talk.

I know, that's right.

So it's kind of... doesn't it exactly?

[20:04]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

But you see, he can't even put his backpack on.

He's turning around and around as if he's trying to catch the backpack with his other arm and stuff and missing it.

Like, I think that's quite sweet.

And it is even...

Confess Robert, he's so dry, isn't he?

Maybe I can suggest a tranquilliser, Mr. Newloop?

But he also does complain that Mr. Tuvok rarely acknowledges his brilliance as well, which I think is pretty good.

You know, that's a total side note, Nathan.

You know, I've been I've been poorly in watching loads of Star Trek episodes.

I watched a really bad episode where they had to all sleep away from their quarters and Neelix sides because there's beds in the sick bay is going to move into the sick bay overnight and the doctor and Neelix are stuck there.

It's like a comedy episode where they're just irritating each other.

I actually think they may they put more effort into that relationship than they do Chewbok and Chewbok and Neelix.

So Skla here expresses his fear of heights, and he also expresses a fear later of confined spaces.

[21:11]

And I think it goes back to heights again.

And so he's trying, you know, they're trying to characterise him as a kind of cowardly guy in order to make it a surprise, how he turns out to be the man.

Yeah, exactly, aren't they?

It's almost Agatha Christie like in how they disguise him.

So I have a theory that if you have a premise, like a physical location or something, you know, you've got the idea, let's have a Maglobe space elevator, we've never done that before in Star Trek, uh, you know, it might make for an interesting set, turns out not so much.

And it might make for some impressive visuals.

Again, didn't quite pan out, but you've got an idea.

It's new.

It's, you know, there's something there.

But you can't think of what to do when you're there.

So we've got this idea.

We've got to go up the thing.

How do we make it run out to sort of 45 minutes and the answer is have a murder mystery because, like, and this murder mystery is...

That's not a bad instinct.

[22:12]

We're trapped on the thing with a murderer.

I mean, I've seen decent murder mysteries done in confined spaces before.

Like if you write it in an intriguing way about characters you care about, it can work.

So why does he murder them?

Yeah, I couldn't figure it out, if I'm honest.

I wasn't really sure about any of his motives.

That's where I said a good script could make this work.

I just don't understand.

I don't understand why Dr. Vadim takes off early as well.

I think it's because we need a villain.

That's why.

Like, that's it.

So we need things to happen as we're going up the lift, right, to pad this out to 45 minutes.

But I just don't know why any of the things happen and what they're about.

You know, like you've got to create...

I mean, why don't you create the situation where it looks like an engineering problem, but it's really a people problem.

[23:14]

And the problem is that the people are just civies who are scared.

Do you know what I mean?

Or panicky, and, you know, like, um, Tuvok thinks it's a space problem. but Neelix discovers it's a personnel problem and because that's what Neelix is good at.

He inspires everyone to work together.

And he kind of does that with Lilias, with the, with the young woman that they find on board the, on board the ship.

You know, she ends up working and doing engineering things.

He does inspire her to help.

And that's the sort of thing that it needs to be.

But instead it's just like, and we're going to have a murder mystery and this guy's going to take off early and who knows what's going on and there's going to be something on the roof, but we don't know why.

Like, why was the data device hidden on the roof under the 1st panel that Tuvok decides to open?

Why is it there?

I feel like you've given the plot details more consideration than me.

Oh, look at this special effect shop, the orbital taver.

It's so limp, isn't it?

[24:14]

It sort of looks like a pin, doesn't it?

Someone's just stabbed into the ground.

Well, I mean, if you think about it, right?

So the ionosphere on earth, according to Siri, goes from 60 kilometres to a 1000 kilometres above the earth's surface, right?

So a 1000 kilometres of a tether rope.

How much do you reckon that weighs?

Do you know?

Like, how much actual volume would that be?

Because I have to think that it's ridiculous.

They were mining a long time.

Several 1000 people died in the mind.

Oh, but taking us back to the murder mystery for a second, yeah.

Like, Voyager has a really bad track record with murder mysteries.

And I think maybe they only successfully pull off one, which is a meld.

Right, where you have Suda.

[25:15]

And they lean, but they very quickly tell you the murderers in that.

So it's not a murder mystery.

It's what do we do with a serial killer when we're trapped in this regional space?

Can we enforce capital punishment?

And the other end of the scale is something like repression in series 7, where the reveal is that Chewbok, who's, you know, doing the mystery and the murder mystery investigation, is the person responsible because someone in the alpha quadrant has sent a weird subspace virus that infects Marquis...

I mean, it's just terrible.

These, however, it just doesn't work as a mad mystery at all, does it?

Because all of the basic tenets of a murder mystery aren't in place.

Like you said, there's no motive.

There's no logic to the reasons that things happen.

It's just a series of events that happen where the man says at the end, I was responsible for all this.

It's insane.

It's just absolutely absurd.

[26:16]

And then, may I say in a spectacularly undramatic way as well, when he reveals himself as the killer.

So bad.

Doesn't he just shut the door whilst Chewbob's outside and go, why are you shutting the door?

Because I'm the killer.

Oh, do you know, I don't know what.

Do you remember that very menacing shot of the memorial in memorial when they shot it from below?

Now why didn't they do that with the orbital tether?

Yeah, yeah.

Well, I guess because, you know, Neelix is seeing it in the distance, I guess.

It just looks like, I mean, it's CG, but it looks like a terrible bit of model work.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

No, it's a terrible...

The worst effect shot in this, Nathan, is when you see the little device that they're travelling in, going up.

Oh, people ever.

It looks so cheap.

Like Doctor Who in the 70s would have had a better model shot than that.

Yeah, I mean, maybe not.

It's super primitive CGI.

[27:18]

And if you think about it in 2 years time in series five, the computer generated stuff that they produce is going to be really quite impressive, I think, from time to time.

Stuff like, go and watch that 1st shot in workforce. series 7.

It's incredible.

It does come on a lot.

But I just I just wonder then, maybe, you know, you have been using models for a long time.

Maybe use models for this.

I think a model would have looked worse.

There's no way a model would not have been absolutely disastrous.

Because they couldn't have made it move quickly enough.

You know, like they have to make it look like it's moving quickly.

But I want to see it as like this sort of cardboard box going up a metal tube sort of being pulled by a string, you know?

It's the sort of special effects I'm used to in genre television, you know?

But I mean, like, as I said before, this is what I commented on before.

Neelix is quite impressive in this scene because he persuades her to help while she's holding a knife to his throat, you know, like you said earlier, the episode does a good job of displaying why Neelix is a very useful character.

[28:26]

Yeah.

It just doesn't do a very good job of displaying why Tuvok can actually learn anything. that's what this episode needed.

It needed for them both to display their strengths and then for them to bring their strengths together.

And then for them to complement each other.

Exactly.

That's such a simple...

I mean, I'm writing that now on the fly.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

And there are some baffling things too, which I think undermine the scene.

Like, for instance, that whole scene there.

What was Tuvok doing while the woman was holding a knife to Neelix's throw?

Why did he not say anything?

But he doesn't say anything. looks so angry.

He just doesn't even, he's not involved in that scene.

This thing is happening.

He's standing there in the room.

We don't get a shot of him.

He doesn't react.

We don't, he doesn't say anything.

Look, at this grisly prop, which clearly has been designed for them to just crack over.

I know, but I love it inside.

That looks so cool.

Wait for it.

Look, it literally just falls apart.

[29:28]

Oh, there we go.

Right.

I've got a rock in my garden that's concealed several keys.

There's several fake rocks.

You look just like that.

Yeah.

Oh no, I shouldn't have said that.

No one knows where my garden is.

Because I keep walking...

I'm somewhere in hungry, you know.

The coil bypass is active.

Oh, well that's good.

Actually, I mean, this set looks much better in the dark.

No, don't turn the lights on.

When it was just lit up by the consoles.

So the memory alpha, the memory alpha page also talks about the difficulty of making this set, anything because it's just another fucking set.

And how do we sell the fact that it's going up and down?

Do you know what I mean?

That it's actually, like, we can't have windows.

We can't afford windows. the actors.

Yeah, they sort of...

You know?

[30:29]

And so what they end up doing is there is something that lights, a little bit like the way that they sell that the turbo lifts are going up and down, even in original track, where there are things that lights just move up and down, which is pretty lame.

It's pretty limp, I think.

It's something, I suppose.

Yeah, yeah, something.

I mean, Kurtzman Trek would just have a window, right?

We'd see the whole...

Oh, there's a bit...

I don't, it's, it's soon, and I'll forget when it's on, because we'll be talking about, so I just have to say it now, where, you know, Neelix is the other side of the room, and they're going, no, none of us know how to operate this.

Nunix, you have to get over this side of the room and he comes over.

And he just pulls one lever.

I mean, you tell them to pull one.

Just pull the lever.

It's fine.

I thought he was going to come over and do something really complicated.

I actually think this scene is not bad either.

Like, again, it's a cheesy ass Star Trek scene with Neelix's backstory and stuff. he's talking about his sister who's died.

[31:35]

We've already done Jetrail right.

We know she died in terrifying circumstances.

So I think this has just given him, it allows us to have some empathy for him, and we don't always.

And and it also shows that he's able to reach out and motivate people.

You know, like, because the outcome of it is, like she feels for him, look at her reaction and then she opens up to him.

And after that, she's helping them operate and mend the Maglev carriage.

I actually don't mind this style, where he says she was killed when I was a young man, I still see them every day.

Like this is, it's sort of functional, but it's not, and I think Ethan delivers it well as well.

It is cheesy.

I think what's nice, it's because she gives him her water that she was protecting when they 1st met, and she smiles at him, sits down next to him, gives him the water, and then opens up about her own experience.

[32:36]

I think it's good.

How can Shupac be so stupid then to consider this a waste of time when they're building bridges?

And now she's giving supplies that actually may allow them to survive.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, no.

And he's snarky.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And, you know, it's so frustrating because I've seen Tim Russ now.

I saw him in a show recently, right, where he plays a porter.

He's on the door.

Every time the actors walk in and out, and he's so funny, and he's got this sort of wry smile on his face all the time, and I'm thinking, is that who we could have had on Voyager?

But he's always such a grumpy arsehole all the time.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's um, I, I, I find it very strange when you have charming actors and you don't let them be charming.

No.

No.

And it's like you said, it's the bacular effect.

Yeah, yeah, but it might be the Braga effect might be the problem.

[33:38]

But this, like, having you, having to humiliate him now and the reaction.

Like, Ethan's reaction is kind of too much because it makes us hate Tuvok more, I think.

And I feel like it comes across as like an ego thing as well.

I better than you.

That's how it feels like it comes.

It's not like I'm trying to teach you, Mr. Neelix. you know this is a better way of doing things.

It always feels like he's talking down to it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

But he's a Vulcan, isn't he supposed to be better than that sort of thing?

Well, that's right.

That's right.

So, and now Vadim, inexplicably, is going to take off.

Like, I don't know.

Should the Maglev thing, the tether, have gone through the middle of the thing?

No, that would be too dangerous, wouldn't it?

I don't know, but these shots are staggeringly undramatic through that door.

That's amazing.

[34:39]

And now, look, James Carter, throw some...

Throw some rocks into the sea. it dramatic.

Here we go.

Oh, we're all inside now.

Yes, no, which, no, easy, you went down.

I mean, Jubal just walked up to a mini.

He fell to the floor.

Where was the Vulcan death group?

You barely touched him.

Oh, look, now we're getting some good wobble on the tether now.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

See, this shot, how about this shot?

The this effect shot going into the ad break.

Oh, that's not too bad.

I mean, this is it's trying to be dramatic in the, it's looking down and the thing's coming up right up towards us.

And I think the establishing shot of the 1st thing is like...

Please.

It sort of goes chuck, chuck, chuck, chuck, chuck, as it goes up.

It's not working fully at full capacity yet.

[35:40]

Grief, rise.

My orbital tipper.

But I mean, it is like, it's just a boring set that could be anything.

You know, it could be the laboratory on a colony or something.

Like there's no indication that you can see there's a red and yellow light thing in the background, which is moving kind of vertically to try and sell the idea that we're going up and down.

But it's not really enough, apart from all this, you know, fucking Robert shaking the camera a lot.

And beyond the, beyond the sort of exterior shots that we get.

This could be any old shuttlecraft. exactly.

Yeah, yeah.

It's no, like, like, if this was Kurtzman track.

I imagine maybe this might all be glass and you'd just be able to see 360 degrees slowly, um, you know, in the distance, the scenery getting smaller.

You know, like you could have done something.

And I know they couldn't have done that.

But they could have done a window. couldn't they?

[36:41]

Yeah, probably.

Just remember some clouds?

You wait and see what happens when they do do that because there are some windows a little bit later and they are not good.

I have to say, my one day's work on the Voyager production team, cutting out the cardboard clouds for the backdrop of when 2 pockets outside was one of the best days of my life.

I actually think that that doesn't look too bad.

I think that it's because it's clearly a real picture.

It's not cartoon, cartoon, cardboard clouds.

I think it's a real photograph of clouds and it's just...

It's just because they can't drop...

But, but, but, you know, like, I think that it's not so bad.

I think it could have been worse.

You know where there's clouds, Nathan?

Outside.

Outside.

Yeah, yeah.

We could have gone outside and shot from below.

[37:41]

Just go to a mountain ledge or something.

Yeah, just to put the camera on the ground and look up.

I don't know, but like whatever.

With some actual wind in his face rather than the, I think it's like 4 people just going, it's really limp.

It's so untramatic.

But he's trying to sell it.

I was like, oh, the wind might fall battering my senses.

Yeah, I think, I mean, I certainly think the 1st half of this episode, even though that is kind of limp, but the 2nd some of the execution of the 2nd half. something else.

I don't understand why Lily is.

Oh, there's a window?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So that's blue screen, right?

Apparently, according to, I did see a photo of Tim sticking his head in the window with a blue screen behind him.

I think there's a photo on memory alpha of that.

See, I think that that actually looks like there's a piece of cloth out the window and someone is blowing a hairdryer or a big fan of it.

[38:48]

Oh, wonderful.

Actually, it does.

It looks like no, it looks like my white's in the washing machine going round.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Vatsim just put him on for a 30 minute wash.

Because I...

Like later when it's Tim sticking his head up, they're not going to be able to do that particular effect and so they just sort of key something in.

Please, will you look at Dr. Vatim's face whilst Chewbok is subduing him?

I mean, that's terrible.

I hate that so much Yeah, so he's a literal bully now.

He's just bullying people.

It's dreadful.

So now we're back on board the bridge and here's Kate.

Oh, I'd forgotten the rest of Voyager existed.

I think Tom Paris is on the, I think Tom Paris is only dialogue as being sort of piped in from his shuttle.

[39:51]

Oh, was that right?

Yeah, yeah.

So he's got one of those...

Yeah, that's good.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, I won't hear a bad word said about Robert Duncan McNeil anymore since discovering the Delta Flyers podcast.

He's really smart.

I mean, I don't give a shit what they've got to say about the Voyager episodes, but now they're covering DS9.

They got Armond Shimmerman and Cherry Farrell in there.

Awesome.

Guest spots by Nanar visitor, Marco Lemo, Robert Hewitt Wolf.

It's fabulous.

And actually, it's a pretty...

Robert Duncan McNeil is a pretty good critic.

Right, I have to say.

Garrett Wang.

She's pretty though, so it's fine. no more.

Struggle.

Okay.

What's Tubok doing now?

Oh, a trioxic compound to oxygenate.

Well, I think the triox compound might be from a muck time.

I think we may have had that mentioned before.

Like, I think it might...

Is he feeling the pressure of sort of going up then?

[40:53]

Is that what's happening?

No, they're losing atmosphere and Lilius only managed to get one of the atmosphere things working and so they're out of oxygen or whatever.

But the triox compound, which I think is what enabled Kirk to stay alive in a muck time.

I could be dreaming that.

There probably heaps of people shouting at their iPhones as we speak, saying that I'm wrong.

They're still doing it.

Have you seen with the villain?

What's his name?

Trax.

Sticks?

Oh, Skla.

Sklar.

That's a range of gluten-free bread sclar.

Sclar.

Sclar.

Like a Klingon.

Like the most low effort Klingon name. you can think of.

It's a fabulous homemeal ciabatta.

I'll tell you.

But anyway, um, he just said there. you know, oh, don't hurt me.

I despise needles.

Yeah, yeah, they're still trying to show.

He's a weak man, you know.

He hates confined spaces.

He hates being, he hates heights.

[41:54]

Like, if you'd asked me who's the villain, I might have guessed.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

The guy who gets the wimpy one.

Is it the lady?

Is it the guy who has no characteristics, this guy?

Oh, see, this is great as well.

Nearly saying, look, you could be the only person left parlour in this thing.

I better show you now how to do it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Oh God, what's happening now?

This fella, all we easier to do is to make this last 45 minutes.

Every time they're getting somewhere, he complicates the plot.

Well, I don't understand.

So there's something outside but I can't remember who put it there.

Did he hide it?

What's on the outside?

Is it a bomb?

No, that's what I thought it was originally.

But it's the data pad that includes all the information about the enemy spaceship that we're about to encounter.

Why is that on the outside of the orbital temper?

I don't know.

Okay.

Is he?

You didn't feed this one through.

[42:55]

From Skla.

Because Skla's a trader.

And Skla's poisoning him.

Already for no reason.

Will you ever remember any of these guest characters ever again?

Yes.

You will.

Skla, he's unforgettable.

Now, I actually quite like the woman.

I think she's fine.

But you'll sort of blend into the other guest characters of the week.

But my point for asking was, well, you remember Yedrin Dax, you know, Molly O'Brien.

Of course you will.

There is a way of making these characters interesting.

Yeah, but it's not Brannan's... you know, like you can see him trying to do the right of things by giving Skla these various phobias.

You know, that's kind of his thing to make him a more noticeable character.

Maybe this is too linear for him then.

Maybe this is too simple.

Like, maybe his strength is writing quirky, weird things.

[43:56]

Oh, yeah, it's certainly not deadlock.

Deadlock's great.

That's a planet script.

Two of a wagers, the Vedians coming in, harvesting organs. terrific.

Yeah, yeah.

Whereas here, he's just sort of telling an action movie of the week, isn't he?

Yeah, yeah.

But, like, there's nothing to it, you know, like, but it's also a character piece, which is just not good at because you can't make everyone not be a dickhead, you know.

Like, and now Neelix is being a pre-ick.

You know, like it just...

Yeah, like, we did timeless recently.

You can't do character work.

Yeah, yeah.

I don't know.

Maybe maybe it's the Chris Carter effect then.

Maybe if you do too many scripts, then half of them are just gonna fall through the gap.

Yeah.

I mean, the, the, like, timeless isn't primarily a character piece, though.

It is primarily a weird time thing, isn't it?

Which plays into a strength, but I never forget that scene at the end when he gets the message.

Yeah, it's really good.

Yep, yep.

And I think the warming is really interesting.

[44:58]

Like sheep poses interesting questions and stuff.

I'm going to do some research, all right?

I'm going to watch some Brannan episodes for the next couple of weeks and see if I can find the great character drama that he wrote.

See, I really like her.

We said this before, but that scene where Lilius accuses Tuvok of being dismissive and condescending.

I think that's really good.

But none of this is anything that we've seen.

You know what would have been great, though?

If this was Kurtzman, Trek.

Lilius would have gone, do you know what, Tuvok?

You're a prick.

Yeah, yeah, you're an asshole.

You just summed it up with a swear word.

Oh, I did like Neelix telling him, though.

I've tolerated you condescending me for a long time.

Do you know why?

Because you're smarter than me.

And you're more logical and you're stronger, but do you know what?

You are shit with people.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

But all of that stuff like that, we've never seen any evidence of that, apart from what, what's that thing?

[45:59]

learning curve, which is super terrible.

Look at Tim Ross.

I mean, he looks like he wants to murder you at the moment.

What he should be thinking is, oh, Joe, he's right.

I really haven't handled this very well.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

He said he goes, I disagree.

Yeah, it's just terrible.

I think like, I think that's the worst thing about it.

I think that's the worst thing about it.

And then Neelix was like a twat now. sitting down.

Well, we ain't going nowhere.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Because I say so.

That's right.

So no one's coming out of this show.

That's it.

And it is that scene where he is just absolutely whiny and kind of annoying, you know, which makes me lose any sympathy for him.

And it's a big problem.

You know, you're sabotaging 2 of your regulars by just making them be pricks for the sake of this episode.

I mean, even in something as ghastly as, how do you say it, power situation?

Is that your tuition?

Yeah, with Tom Paris and Neelix crashing on that planet, right?

[47:03]

And all the jealousy stuff, which I just hate.

But the fact that they have to give birth to this little alien puppet for 2 of them and be like the midwives and look after it.

And it all comes to a really nice conclusion.

I don't know, I think they can do it.

They're just choosing north to.

Yeah, yeah.

So, so yes, here we go.

This is absolutely dismal.

The camera is completely steady.

The camera's completely steady.

Everything's utterly static.

Nothing's juttering.

The tsunami.

The thing is hidden behind the only panel that's visible.

That's...

Oh, it opens up very easily and there it is.

Actually, it's even hidden inside a little thing that perfectly fits it, though.

I wonder what it is.

Oh, wait, is that bad?

[48:03]

can't work out how to get it out, and then Sklar comes along and just turns the handle.

Oh, Christ.

They must have seen the rushes for this.

What have we done?

What have we done?

You got to think, Nathan.

This is part of the trilogy of terror as well.

You know what's next to this, aren't you?

Darkling. that dread episode where the doctor went bad?

And what's the one where Harry Kim thinks he's an alien and goes to the planet of the women?

That one as well.

Favourite son?

Where they all managed to convince Harry that he's an alien from the Delta Quadrant. and they just want him for breeding.

Yeah, quick, turn the handle and look, watch this, watch this action.

And you even saw Tim Ross's stunt doubles face there as it went over.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. absolutely shockingly bad.

[49:04]

Oh, that's how you get the pad out.

Well, look at that.

You just moved that panel.

Hold on, Tuvok.

Hold on.

It has to say that...

Actually, on paper, that's a great...

That is a great cliff, right?

Yeah.

In execution.

Not so much.

Oh here we go.

And that has the line, he returned to the surface, which I think is actually quite good for the villain.

The villain's on the top level, and he has to try and come down the stairs and be evil.

And the evil. and the gun, do the gun thing.

He's so wooden.

Look at his body language.

Yeah, and so now we have this scene among these 3 people that we couldn't possibly give a shit about while everyone is unconscious or hanging from a girder outside.

A bit of blood, though, on Neelix's head?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Okay.

So we're, we're, so back aboard Voyager, I think that the spaceship that is about to appear where the alien on it is pretty great.

[50:13]

Okay, but you're saying the alien is quite Beaumarish.

The aliens, Beaumarish, but in a way that doesn't kind of ruin the thing.

And Janeway is doing just the perfect Janeway maneuver.

Oh, my word.

It looks like, um...

It looks a pit like my nanny Steptoe, actually.

With a skin disease, maybe.

But the Janeway maneuver, so we know the Picard maneuver, don't we?

That's right.

What's hers?

Just hands on hips.

Hands on hip.

She's got her fingers splayed out and stuff and she just looks fantastic.

And then she sits down later and when she calls her battle stations later on too.

She's pretty damn impressive Like, it's got...

I don't want to over. sexualise Kate Nathan, but, you know, I can imagine her dressed up as a dominatrix there with her foot, you know, in spiky heels on top of Shikotay or something like that.

Like, it's all power.

Did you see the poor fellow, the Nizu Ambassador, the back there?

Just at the back of the scene, no liar thing.

[51:15]

Yeah, looking absolutely lost, poor actor.

Oh, look, Chewbox at the window.

Very subtle.

Mr. Neelix, don't give on now that you've seen me, all right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

He doesn't know because he's just he's fallen.

He does make eye contact with him for a second.

Boy, oh, boy.

Do you know what as well?

is I did notice.

I don't know if it is a 90 straight thing or not, but the reaction shots.

Like, there, you went to Jupac and it was on him at the window for about 5 seconds.

And then you go back to Neelix and it's on him for about five.

Nowadays it would be cut, cut, cut, wouldn't it?

But I mean, look at this.

Oh, watch this bit as the a sklar goes flying out.

No, even before he goes flying, yeah.

When they're fighting over the gun, and the camera is completely steel, and the 2 of them are just being absolute fucking twat.

[52:18]

Like, hugging one out of those stuff.

It's so bad.

How old with laughter, though.

Wait for it.

Oh, you must be a bit ahead of me.

I haven't left yet.

He's still in he's still in the room.

Oh no, I'm a bit behind.

Oh, here he goes.

Woo.

It's so shit.

It's so amazingly shit.

And that's the hero shop.

The great thing about it is that's the big image that they use on memory alpha.

You're joking.

He loves him.

But what makes it look so shitty is the way that he moves.

Like, it's actually not a bad kind of computer generated image. as a still, but as he flies out, Well, to be a bit insulting.

There is something very funny about watching a fat man flying.

Speaking as fat man.

Who just saw wobbles?

I was getting during, but there's an old 60s Doctor Who story where they didn't have the money to show somebody falling down a hole.

[53:21]

So they just cut out a cardboard version of these monsters called the board. and just dropped it down and drained.

Drop it down the hole.

It reminded me a bit of that actually.

So bad. very terrible.

Bless them.

Oh dear.

So do you think if this had come maybe 2 or 3 seasons later, the execution would have been a lot better?

Yeah, but the trouble is already sort of towards the end of series 3, it's too late to be doing this plot.

Don't you think?

with Chewbac and Neelix.

Yeah, it's too late.

Because we haven't ever seen them behaving like this.

There's no indication before this.

Is there that Neelix has intimidated my Tuvok?

No, well, I mean, they did have that wonderful scene in the previous murder mystery episode where Chewbok went bad, went to the holodeck, and took out all of his rage on Niggas and murdered him in the nest hole.

That was very funny.

That thing.

But I mean, but basically, you know, like he kind of, he's sort of jolly with him.

[54:24]

His name, Elix is jolly, calls him Mr. Vulcan, you know, like his sort of cute and punctures his...

Why can't Vulcan smile?

Do they have an aversion to smiling?

Like I seem to remember Ethan Peck smiling quite a lot.

Well, yeah, yeah, yeah, but remember how much that freaked boy were out when he saw it.

Like there when he said, Mr. Vulcan.

Your interpersonal skills are improving.

That would have been a perfect time for us.

I actually do think that that was actually like that Rust did attempt to inject a little bit of warmth into his reaction there, given the constraints.

Oh, I do feel sorry for all of the Voyager crew actors that aren't Ethan Phillips and Tim Ross, who have just been stuck saying Technobap for the entire episode.

But you know, I don't know.

They, they, their technobabble hasn't been too bad, I think, you know, like I actually think those scenes are not super terrible.

Oh my god.

I mean, far out.

[55:25]

I mean, I don't want to be just trapped inside this boring sale.

Well, everyone's sort of shaking.

It maybe would have been more claustrophobic if we have.

Yeah, yeah, but like it's so bad.

It's so boring.

Oh, Tim tried a bit of comedy there where the man hugged him.

I looked a bit awkward.

He does a little bit of a stiff kind of reaction.

Captain, get us out of here, please.

And suddenly we're back.

Touchy feely.

He's here already.

Like he's they're all on board.

This bit now where Neelix comes in and he says the same line that was said earlier about... returned to the surface.

Is it a joke?

Yeah.

It's not played as a joke, no.

But sort of, because like, like, it's what Sklass says, but then there's a look between Tuvok and Neelix, isn't there?

And you kind of think, well, Tuvok was outside the carriage when he said that originally, so he wouldn't have heard it.

So, well, like, what's going?

[56:27]

Always need the TOS unsubtlety of...

But something would have helped there.

No, I think it was kind of like rye or sardonic or something.

Do you know what I mean?

He says he returned to the service.

They look at each other, but there's no way could have heard that because it was said about Tuvok when he was hanging from the strut at the bottom of the at the bottom of the carriage.

So I don't...

Ethan knows how to play it, though, because he plays it seriously.

He looks at you bulk.

But there's no hint of humour in his face.

No, but I mean, he's kind of, I think it is sort of grimly repeating the line that Skla himself had said.

So he had said that of Tuvok, and then, and then, uh, and then Ethan says it about Skla, but none of it makes any sense because Tuvok's never heard.

I would have appreciated here if what's the lady called again?

Lilius.

If Lilius had gotten to Lilix.

You know what, right?

Like, I know it looks like he learned something, but he's still treating you like a prince.

[57:29]

Dumping up with that, all right?

And then he could have had a go at Chewbok at the end.

But I know you said it does look like they're reaching some kind of an impasse at the end.

I just hate that Tuvok comes in and goes, yeah, yeah, yeah. instincts are okay.

But, um, they'll they'll never work again, so don't bother.

So this whole scene here is explaining the motive and stuff like that.

And I just had kind of noped out of the episode by this point.

And so that's why he tried that.

That's why he tried to kill everyone.

And you can we put the data storage on the exterior.

I mean, you can hear Jessica Fletcher now, can't you?

But the trouble is no one discovers any of them.

We just we just get told in it as an info dump at the end.

Like, do you not know how murder mysteries work?

Like, there are clues and shit.

There's none of them.

You should have sat down and goes, do you know what I've been thinking?

There are a few unresolved questions. little adventure we've been on today.

[58:30]

Uh...

What's concession?

Hang on.

I said in my mission report. given you a special commendation for your endurance and bravery.

Okay.

And then, and then he says, but one day you were correct.

But one day they'll fail.

Oh, Chewvok.

Yeah.

You will finally understand that I'm right.

That's what he's saying.

Yeah, yeah.

So, 0 my god.

And then these, like, like, this is not funny.

Like, and however hard, Ethan tries to sell it as a funny line.

It's just not funny.

You know, you could never imagine a scene between Chewbok and Neelix, like the end of one little ship, can you?

Do you remember?

You know, I can't help but notice.

You are a little a la petite side.

Oh, yeah, yeah, is that being genuinely funny?

Yeah.

I just, like, do you remember how their relationship ends?

In Homewood, in series 7.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[59:31]

Neelix gets the wonderful sort of everyone's in the corridor seeing him off, and then Juhok comes forward and he's been trying to get him to dance all episode and he just does one dance move as like a little concession.

And I'm like, really?

And it is touching because he's giving him something.

But I'm like, come on.

Can we hug?

I mean, can't they hug?

Do you not remember when Odo and Quark said goodbye in the airlock?

They kind of refuse.

Aren't you going to say anything to me before you go?

No.

Oh my god.

They started the next episode already.

Harry Kim's already having premonitions of the Planet of the Women planet.

Oh my god.

This was perhaps not the greatest point of Star Trek Voyager, I've been going to say.

But I mean, I think what I liked about it was that it's a Star Trek episode and I like Star Trek.

[1:00:32]

All of the episodes we do, that's true.

I like that about them.

But it was also just that I...

That's a low bar.

I could imagine it being better.

You know, the whole idea is not misconceived.

It's just poorly executed and you can see where it goes wrong.

You can do a little bit of archeology about, you know, who's responsible, mostly Brannan, but some points, obviously, for Robert Shearer and some of the guest actors.

But, you know, like I said, I didn't think it was a terrible idea.

And I certainly remember it from my 1st watch when I was buying the VHS tapes and thinking this is visually different from any situation that I've seen before on Star Trek and that's something, I guess.

I said to you on the message chat that, um, I am frustrated at this point in series 3 because they have chosen to abandon the attempts that they made of like running art plots in series 2.

[1:01:41]

You know, you had Suda turn up a couple of times.

Cesca kept turning up, all the stuff with the Kazon, Michael Jonas, you know, there was, and certainly in the 2nd half series two.

They were trying to suggest that there was a universe developing around Star Trek Voyager.

And then when Michael Piller is out, Jerry Taylor says, no, I don't want to do any of that.

I don't want to suggest there's a universe.

I want perfectly syndicated episodes that anyone could put on at any time.

So we're just going to tell really great adventure stories with big bold ideas, the cue and the gray, warlords, you know, macrocosm space viruses attacking Voyager and things like that.

And all right, fair enough.

That's what they did with TNG, for the most part, and it was an enormous success.

I can see where the instinct is there and the numbers are tailing off in series 2.

So I can see maybe why she did it.

I just think in how they execute it.

[1:02:43]

It's a far less interesting show as a result and they're just not there with the production team that they've got to make these one hour telemovies that they want to make, visually arresting, you know, certainly like substantial enough to be interesting, and they just don't have the investment in the characters that perhaps DS 9 does. in order to make these sort of one hour shots worth investing in.

I think the instinct was wrong and I think they probably should have just kept going, stuck to their guns and got better at doing what they did.

That's what DS9 did.

It developed as it went along, but they found a formula and they just got better at it as they went along. kicking it all away and just trying this rise, you know, every other week.

I don't know.

[1:03:48]

All right, it's the end of the episode, and it's time for us to work out where we're going next.

It's your turn at the helm of the randomiser, Joe. What series are you choosing?

I hate to be predictable, but I am going to be predictable.

They're all in there.

All of them.

Let's leave it to chance.

But because we took so long last time.

Should we just go with the 1st one?

Let's see what it is.

Oh, I have no idea what it is.

Your random Star Trek Discovery episode is season four, episode 10, the Galactic Barrier.

Oh, yes, okay, that's pretty great.

Does that make any sense if I haven't watched the rest though?

Almost certainly not, but I mean, it's going to happen.

It's going to be like that.

So we've seen series 4 and we've seen the mid-season break and it's the, what do they call?

the 10 C or something?

The big aliens that wiped out Books Planet, and we are about literally to go through the galactic barrier that's 1st posited in the 2nd ever episode of Star Trek where no man has gone before, the big barrier that surrounds the galaxy, because we have to go out of that in order to encounter the 10 C.

[1:05:11]

Now, I think that that run of discovery is my favourite apart from series one because it gets the serialisation right.

So the galactic barrier is about something, but it is part of a larger story.

I mean, it's doable.

Um, in the same way that, you know, uh, like, any episode of octriven Kursman trick is...

Or, you know, like if we, I think we've watched one, haven't we out of the 6 episode arc that starts series 6 of Deep Space 9, you know, it's a little bit like that.

Something coherent happens.

It is, I think, probably a satisfying episode of TV in itself, but it is part of a larger story.

I am intrigued, I have to say, and I have actually been intrigued by Sirius 4 of discovery ever since you started waxing lyrical about it, but I think I want to see some more of the others. before I do the ending.

Yeah. because I don't want to do the landing and then watch all the work that gets there.

[1:06:14]

It's not quite the ending, I think.

Even though it's episode 10, I think that season actually runs for a couple more episodes after that.

I have already pressed the partners.

Okay, well, that's the Apple.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, I do wonder if we should do this, actually, but it is another Voyager.

Okay.

But I'm intrigued to know what on earth you're going to think of this because we have done the big 2 part species 8472 introductory episodes.

Scorpion, and we have done the astonishing.

We're gonna hunt Species 8472 around Voyager episode, prey.

And this is now the culmination of their storyline.

The great plot to invade the earth or something.

Season five, episode 4 in the flesh.

Is that the really boring one where they're all holograms or something and they're just people because we've kind of abandoned the idea. making them sort of crappy CGIs. sub like Timu Xenomorphs, you know?

[1:07:23]

It is, it is.

Oh, I'll press it again.

I won't put you through.

Oh, no, but it will be a two-parter if we do.

I'm up for it.

Oh, I'm intrigued.

I've not seen this episode or this pair of episodes in... 10 years. long time.

I just remember the time.

Fuck.

It's gambit part two.

Oh, wow.

Damn it.

A mid-season too.

Yeah, do you remember?

It's pretty terrible.

Is it really terrible?

I think so.

I'm up for it if you are.

Season seven.

No, we've done so much.

I'm up for it, actually.

Yeah, all right.

I'm going to do some TNG.

I think that's quite low on the percentage is actually TNG.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

All right.

No, let's do that.

That'd be fun.

Gambit, part one and part two.

Will you live up to your, well, my terrible memories, have you?

[1:08:23]

Let's find out.

You've been listening to entitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford and Nathan Bottomley.

You can find us online at untitled Star Trek project.com and wherever you get your podcasts.

Our artwork is by Kayla Ciceran, and the theme was composed by Cameron Lamb.

This episode was recorded on the 27th of October 2026 and released on the 30th of October.

We'll see you next time for Star Trek the Next Generation, Gambit part one and Gambit part two.

Look at Alfie.

I know, he's been there the whole time, you know, so get on.

Yeah, Calvin took the other dog upstairs, the maniac dog.

[1:09:27]

You know what's funny is, I don't know why, but Amazon Prime gives this the title right.

Exclamation mark.

Whereas nowhere else.

Call it, explanation.

So I watch it on Amazon Prime this afternoon on my phone, on the couch.

And yes, I did notice that it was called Rise the Musical.

You know, it's got the DVD year of Voyager.

It's not question mark, man.

No.

The one that really should have an exclamation mark is obviously Cardassians, because that's a musical.

Do you know what I mean?

Cardassians, you know, like that's clearly.

The only one that has got an exclamation mark in Voyager is Bride of Chaotica.

There must be, there must be a curtes and trick with an exclamation mark.

Oh, for sure.

Okay, this is a tag, probably, just wait a sec.

I'm gonna look it up.

Is there a DS9 with an X ration mark?

I am going to look.

I feel like they should be.

[1:10:28]

Untitled Star Trek project.

Great research going on here.

Star Trek titles with exclamation marks.

Right?

Okay, we have Operation Annihilate.

Oh, TOS.

There's three.

Uh, Bride of Chaotica.

Starbase 80, question mark exclamation mark, which is an episode of Lower Decks from season five.

Is that it?

Just the three.

That's it.

Just the three.

Oh, shame.

They should have had move along home.

Ex!

Yeah, but it should be Cardassians for sure.

Like I just assumed that that was a musical.

They could have called it a la Moraine, couldn't they?

Yeah, yeah.

Should subspace, subspace Rhapsody?

That kind of thing.