Children of Time
Star Trek: Deep Space Nine
Series 5, Episode 22
Stardate: 50814.2
First broadcast on Monday 5 May 1997
Episode 203: Children of Time
Recorded on Tuesday 6 October 2026 · Download Episode 203: Children of Time (80.2 MB)
Transcript
Hey, Joe. Hi.
So, we are not aboard Deep Space 9 this week.
This is actually one of 4 Deep Space 9 episodes to have no scenes actually on the station itself.
Instant trivia. love it.
What are the other three?
Tell me.
I can't remember, but I think probably home front and paradise lost.
There are a few scenes.
Just remember Dax is moving around Odo's furniture at the start of that one.
I can't remember.
I can't remember.
But it's the last episode not to feature any scenes on the station.
And it is the last episode where we're in the Gamma Quadrant as well.
No.
There's still 2 seasons to go.
People tend to come and visit us. after that.
So this is Deep Space Night.
Series 5, episode 22.
Children of Time, which 1st aired on the 5th of May, 1997.
I had seen this, but I didn't remember it well, and I thought it was spectacular, really very good indeed.
I remember watching this for the 1st time and it blowing me away and I am so pleased you stopped me pressing that button again last week.
Because I remember I left the decision in your hands as to whether because I know we've done a lot of good DS9 lately. we've got to do some of the middling stuff eventually.
Otherwise, that's all we'll be left with.
But, I mean, I watched this twice this week and I just had the best time revisit.
I think I reconnected with my younger self and the suspense and the tension that I felt the 1st time around as they're approaching the barrier towards the end of the episode.
I was quite gripped again, even though I knew the fucking ending.
Yeah, yeah.
No, I think it has some surprising twists that are really good and that work.
It's got lots of people going outside, which I think is pretty excellent.
You love it.
And it has some scenes of a kind that we don't normally get in Star Trek, and I think it's careful to give something to everyone to do.
So, like I remarked, I think, when we did one little ship, how weird it is when the crew is aboard the Defiant, where everyone's on board the Defiant this week, for some reason, whatever.
And it is sort of a little bit of a throwback, isn't it?
earlier Deep Space Nine, particularly series one where they would just get 2 characters in a runabout and head off to one of Bajaw's moons or something.
So here we're not on the station or we are doing a very high concept science fiction thing.
But because the characters are all really well drawn and because we know them very well, they're all given pretty effective arcs.
And there's a central kind of moral quandary of a kind that I normally find stupid, but that I actually found myself really quite engaged with and impressed with, you know, how each character was given the space to react to it and come to different conclusions.
I thought it was just really good.
If they don't manage to convince us that Miranda O'Brien and Yedrin Dax and all those people, who are flawed, right?
does turn out to do a bad thing in this episode, but if they don't convince us that those people are as worthy of existence as our crew, then the last 10 minutes of this episode just doesn't work at all.
And I think they sell it.
It's because they cast those parts expertly and we'll talk about that.
But as well, they're just, by the end of this, even O'Brien, the staunchest objector to, you know, staying and having a life on this planet because he's got a wife and kid or kids, 2 kids.
He's just had a new kid born, for God's sakes. back home.
Even he's saying, no, 8000 people are going to die if we leave.
You know, you do make me think about something, though, Nathan.
You know, saying that everybody is on the defiant.
Can you imagine in the original timeline of this?
Admiral Ross arriving on Deeks Baseline and going, are you telling me, I've got to recast this entire fucking show.
What do you mean, they were all on the defiant, for God's sakes?
I just think the characters are, and I've used this term before.
We're almost in like a self-perpetuating point of deep space line where the characters are so well defined that you just have to come in with a strong science fiction idea and your stories there because those characters are so well defined.
There are just directions that you can go in with them.
So having Kira, in a situation where she knows she's supposed to die and that's going to change and she's religious.
So there's a whole thing that's happening there.
Yeah, the character beats in this are so strong.
And I said to you, if this was on any other show, if this was Voyager, or if this was TNG, Like they would, they would get the nuts and bolts of the story.
Right, I'm sure.
But I just wouldn't be convinced by the characters.
Oh, there just are, there isn't the strength of characterisation there to make it work in the way that this sings.
So we do have kind of a control group, which is the enterprise episode from season three.
I started watching it and got bored.
And so it's...
It's called E squared or E to the 2nd and it is similar.
We come across a version of enterprise that's been thrown back in time, you know, between one and 200 years.
And because it failed in its mission, in the Delphic expanse, Earth has been destroyed.
And it's a generational ship to Polly's still alive.
She's very, very old.
And, you know, their kid, trip and to poll have a kid, but trips no longer alive.
And we sort of get to meet all of those characters and stuff, but none of them are super compelling.
And most of the show is about the mechanics of making the thing work and how are we able to make this thing work so that we can continue on our way.
And in a way, the people on the older enterprise actually want them to succeed because they don't want Earth to be destroyed and they want to kind of restore the timeline.
But here, what we have is these people who uh, are just people who exist.
There's a minimum of technobabble, I think, like very, very little technobabble.
And what there is is really effective.
There's enough.
Yes, exactly.
Even I, Dolph Joe over here, understood what they were trying to say.
There will be 2 defiance, you know, and then the twist is, absolutely, no, there won't be 2 defiance.
So we'll only be one and we have to make a choice.
Yes.
Yeah.
And then the moment at the end too, where we know that they've got to hit this anomaly in order to be thrown back in time and the ship just sails past it and everyone's going, wait, what happened?
You know, like, like what's happened?
So all of that, there was enough to set up the stakes and to explain what the solution is, what the space solution is to this week's space problem.
But it was so clear.
It was so well done.
And because the show doesn't get bogged down in technobabble unless it's having a really bad day.
It just works terrifically well.
I hate the science fiction idea that there's a way that time is supposed to play out and that if it doesn't play out in this particular way something's gone wrong and that you have a moral duty to ensure that the timeline isn't changed.
I just don't see how that makes any sense at all.
And, you know, like if you decide that you're not going to have heterosexual sex with your opposite sex partner one night and that instead you're just going to finish the chapter of the book here and then go to sleep, you aren't then liable for the fact that the offspring that would have been produced.
Never the fuck is never gets born.
You know, it was a good chapter.
Let's be honest.
That's right.
So, so, you know, like in a way, the space thing, the laws of time, the timeline, all of that sort of stuff, which is all made up, which there are no moral rules about.
What we have instead is, of course, that there are 8000 people who do exist and they are here now and we can see them and they have plans for the future.
There are children among them who talk about what they're going to do when they grow up and and all of that stuff, you know, astonishingly not annoying children as well.
You know how much children annoy me on television.
And these moppets are found quite tolerable. actually.
No, no, no. including Gabriel, the little kid who I thought was going to sort of do real life, you know, and be like the Klingon heavy metal kid or whatever.
Oh, like Molly when she says to O'Brien, yeah, you don't look busy to me.
Get planted.
Come on.
She was sadly.
I mean, I think that the kids were really good.
I think that the colonists were really good.
I thought that there was something really great about the way that there's a Dax there and that Dax betrays them and lies to them.
I thought that was so good and so realistic.
That scene.
I think that scene is extraordinary in that what it asked Terry Farrell to do.
She not only has to feel the guilt that she made the decisions or the bad call, that started this whole thing in the 1st place.
But then I think she's also playing the guilt that she's sort of feeling because Yedrin is a Dax as well.
And she's just in the back of the scene while Cisco and Yedrin are talking just with the weight of the guilt on her. absolutely silent.
And then at the end of that scene, my god, she goes up to Yedrin and there's no dialogue at all.
And we're just left to think what the hell are they both thinking in that moment?
Yeah, she has nothing to say. than actually saying, I'm so disappointed in you.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Whatever Voyager would say, you know, just point out the Peytonly obvious.
Yeah, just so good.
You are right, though.
The whole thing about 8000 people.
Like, it threatens the central premise of the show, right?
We can't go back to the station if those 8000 people exist, but they're good people and they deserve to exist.
So it's not a case of what's right or wrong in the timeline.
It's what's right or wrong morally.
And of course they deserve to exist.
So I am behind them when they make the choice at the end of this, even though I know that's DS9 over with if we're going back on this planet for the rest of it.
It's so good.
I defy anybody to watch this for the 1st time and to be able to 2nd guess this episode.
And I'm telling you now, there are many 90s trek episodes you can say that about many of them you could watch the 1st 10 minutes ago.
Oh, I can pretty much see where this is going to end up.
Yeah, yeah.
I was surprised both times.
I had had enough distance from my initial watching of it to be surprised at exactly how it turned out and I was just terribly impressed.
Just how as well.
I mean, I'm convinced that the ending of this episode hinges on Kira saying the word maybe to Odo.
So he goes, if we'd had a chance to have a go together, would that have happened?
She says maybe, then I think he makes the decision to change the defiance course.
So she kind of is responsible, but utterly indirectly, which is why that last scene hits so well.
Yeah, I I think that scene hits really well.
I think it's super interesting, but it's very clearly not where they were going originally, and I do like where they were going originally, and we will talk about it because I do think that it ends up being something that the show drops because it's such a huge thing.
It's such an enormously huge thing.
And we go out on just Kira's look of just horror and incomprehension about what's been done to save her by Odo and we kind of gloss over it in future and we have lovely romantic comedy and stuff.
It's one of those times where they kind of have a get out clause, don't they?
Because it's not our...
It's okay, yeah. who's had 200 years of grieving over Kira.
So, yeah, it is him.
But as the series goes forward, he's not the one that made that choice. didn't kill those people.
Yeah, just it's not a cheat.
It is, it is.
But I don't want a series to go on with Odo being a murderer of 8000 people.
No, but it is a sort of, 0 my god, you know, like a relationship with this guy.
He's pretty fucking intense.
Do you know what I mean?
Like it is a slight red flag, I think.
Where could this end up, you know?
Yeah, he's never going to leave her.
Oh, wait, he does.
He goes back to the great length.
Yeah, that's true.
Last thing, because I know we'll talk about this within the episode, but the judicious use of location work in this.
They just choose the exact right moments.
It's not like Times Orphan, where we just had a picnic, and that was where they spent the money.
No, it's those gorgeous scenes.
Like, I think it's dusk at one point where the sun's going down and Kira's graves there in the middle of these sort of waving grass.
And it just looks a butt, the planting scene, which is quite unlike anything in another... that I can think of. absolutely vital to the heart of the episode to show that community working together and to bring O'Brien on board as well.
And I, within that, I just think the execution, Alo Croeca's direction, the performances on location, and even that very twee music was playing over all of it.
I just think that sings.
Yeah, I think that's incredible.
I mean, so much of Star Trek is fist fights and people standing in standing sets talking about things.
And so having a scene which is action, but not kind of action, action, it's not fighting or anything like that.
But that planting scene, I think, is extraordinary.
And of course, that's what they're doing on their last day is they're planting plants for their future.
They don't expect to be alive by the end of the day.
They say that, but what else are they going to do?
And because it is about planting and future generations and all of that sort of thing.
You've got the giant tree that Kira's grave is underneath.
You've got the kids with their future plans, all of that sort of staff.
It makes their future matter, and it is what brings O'Brien on board, who is the one who has the most to lose.
It's amazing.
You could give it an insidious reading.
Yeah, you're in there going, all right, we've got one last attempt to get them to change their mind.
Let's all go planting.
They'll see us all working together.
Maybe, but that's not consistent with where they originally wanted the episode to go.
We'll get there.
Oh my gosh.
And you know what?
You may think we've blown our load in this sort of pre-credit study episode.
There are so many little character moments I want to talk about as we go through this. genuinely, I can't wait.
And I know I'll say that mocking me quite a lot.
Very often.
Who knew?
We can actually like 90s trek.
Here we are.
Well, yes, I mean, sometimes it's good.
All right.
I think we should go in.
I'm ready.
I'm absolutely ready to watch this for a 3rd time this week.
Excellent.
Oh, can us in?
Five, four, three, two, one, and we're off.
It's that shot of the defiant.
Did I use that as often as they use the shot of the Enterprise?
No, they couldn't possibly.
Every episode.
We've already determined, anyway.
Now, can I just say immediately?
I mean, just a casual banter on this show.
Her just going, oh, I just can't wait to get into my own bed.
I mean, we see the defiant beds at the end of this and they look absolutely miserable, all right?
Well, they they look like what the the people sleep in, what the lower deck is sleeping on the Saritas, you know, like, yeah.
Um, so this is where we learn that Shakaar is, it's no longer a Kira Shakaar thing.
They're not on together.
We do rather need to establish this at the start of the episode.
Otherwise, none of this can play out.
No.
And like, I, it's one of these things too, where you have a giant character beat that happens in a weird ass high concept thing, uh, like when we discovered that Neelix and um, and Kes have broken up in warlord, you know, where the episode's not about that at all.
We were so relieved.
We didn't mind, it was off screen.
No, we didn't.
Or when Worf and Deanna get together in parallels because they're married in an episode.
We should have known we were heading for trouble at Odo now brooding in the corridor.
Yeah, and so we've had this before, haven't we?
Like, this has been going on for a while now.
The end of series two.
So nearly 3 seasons.
And we, you know, we've had the fabulous episode with the crystal, Kira, the crystal where he confessed his love to her or crossfire.
Do you remember where he was having to protect Shakaar throughout the entire episode?
and Cor gave him relationship advice?
wonderful.
So the other thing that we're doing here is we're establishing our Molly. the original Molly O'Brien, and she's got a birthday coming up and he's going to make her a dollhouse and he has plans for her, his future and stuff.
It's important that we see him talking about her.
It is nice that they remember as well.
Like Dax is just interested in something scientific going on, which DSI doesn't do very often, but she's a science officer, so it would catch awry and she would be interested.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, no, it's really good.
It's the important line there.
Are you sure it's safe to go through the barrier?
Oh, I'm sure it'd be smooth sailing.
She goes, the word smooth sailing, which there's a callback too, as well, a bit later on.
Nobody throws shade like Avery Brooks. smooth sailing.
He goes after she's nearly torn the ship apart.
Now, we got our smart fungus line just again.
Cisco looks visibly pained at the pump.
Yeah, yeah.
It's like, oh, we're not going to have a Star Trek shit this way.
That was Voyager.
They'd all be laughing their ass off, wouldn't they?
Like the end of a Blake 7 episode.
Gosh, you're so witty.
So I think we're getting the smooth sailing line in a second, but we do have this weird thing happening to Kira, and we get a special effect where she kind of, she, yep, there's 2 of her very briefly, but she also gets some plasma thing.
Uh, you know, destroying her neurons.
We had already established in Deep Space 9, that 2 Kira's is better than one, haven't we?
Yeah, well, yeah, yeah.
Dr. Pershe to the bridge.
She should go like a fucking for share here.
There are 1000s of people on the side.
He would have won a mess all those 100s of bashirs down on the planet, would he?
Can you imagine a brood of bashirs?
Oh, God. 8000 inhabitants on the planet.
Hang on a minute.
I swear I weren't there a minute ago.
Yeah, I wondered about that too, whether they just appeared.
And of course, this makes no sense.
Don't think about it too hard because what happened the 1st time they arrived.
Oh, I'm not going now, right?
You and me, I've been, we've been on these loops before and I just ended up cross-eyed.
I do like the callback to, Oh, sorry, I forgot.
You're cutting down, aren't you, on Ractaginos?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right.
That's right.
Well, he remembers.
He remembers himself.
Don't you just feel great when you see the stock colony set?
So this is a slightly more expansive colony set, I think, than we've seen in things like Ensigns of Command, and it is the usual thing where they are actually quite good at doing sunlight in the studio.
We established that in Meridian, didn't we?
They get into a point now where they can tell, you can tell the times of day.
There's a wonderful shot later, you know, where Kira's talking to war through like a window and it's almost like candle lit.
And I'm like, yeah, they're really there with these sort of interiors.
Oh, I love this.
The way she just explains it all when 2 lines.
We were thrown back in time, 200 years.
You'll be stranded here.
We are your descendants.
You're like, what the fuck?
So, um, she is in Caretaker.
The woman who plays Miranda O'Rye.
Oh, she is.
She's one of they are compa, isn't she?
She's a nurse.
Yeah, she's the camper nurse, but the other people I haven't didn't find them in anything else.
Well, Yedrin, the guy who plays Yedrin.
No, that's his only star.
Wow, he's so good.
Yeah.
He's really good.
He's really great.
And that's a great choice as well.
So you literally give everyone something to do.
So Dax is still here in the form of Yedrin, um, and with all of the guilt from having taken them here and sort of stranded. the immediate thing of O'Brien going, hang on, if you're an O'Brien.
Keiko's not here.
How on earth do you exist?
Ensign Tannen bomb from Engineering.
What the hell?
Yeah, but like 10 years he's held off for 10 years.
Um, and and sort of naturally, he's dead by now.
Um, you've got wharf with a Klingon.
Some by Bluff, some by choice.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, which I really liked.
I thought that was really great.
The aforementioned Bashirs, the horror.
All the bashirs.
We don't meet any of them, but we just assume they're all very annoying.
Oh, you've even got core as the educational program.
Yes, who's there for contractual reasons.
I think that's great though.
Eddie's for great.
Are you ready, kids?
Okay.
So you've got 15 millons.
Do you know what I thought was lovely as well?
is that obviously this is packed full of our 90s trek.
We're going to learn a load of backstory.
But for once, we want to know, because it's the backstory of our regulars over 200 years.
Well, that's right.
It becomes a little bit like, you know, well, I mean, that's what's enjoyable about E squared is finding out who paired up, who did the thing.
There's a moment where Malcolm Reed realises he's got no one because he's a massive loser and he was.
No, you're joking.
Oh, tell me you found somebody.
No. back when he's back in the normal time.
Yeah, yeah, he discovers.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Even like the details such as Yedrin saying to Jadzia, oh, you know, you cut your hair because it was so hot, Worf absolutely hated it.
And then they get to have a conversation where Jazier goes, it's just so hard to get on with.
And he goes, no, he's a good man.
I spent a long time with him.
And so that's looking forward as well.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, stuff that they do take up that they don't draw.
This is Renee at Chavari.
I'm telling you now, he, you could look across DS9.
All of the character episodes that really stick in your mind he has written.
And we look at how he's holding himself to.
Yeah, he's holding his arms, but heads behind his back.
Tell you something that only Curzon would know.
You remember that dancer on Pelos Station?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Shut up.
Shut up.
Okay.
I don't really want to talk about it.
Oh, great.
We have to be convinced as well.
It's really hard to come in and play somebody like Yedrin, who has existing relationships with all of our regulars.
We have to be sold now.
The bit where they hug at the end when Cisco's going off.
I fight really moving and they've only had 3 scenes together.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
No, I think he's very good.
I do think he's great.
Oh, look at all these extras.
Bloody hell.
They've got at least 20 people there in that set.
Well, I mean, the set's really expansive. for a change.
You do have like lots of extras.
You do have lots of location stuff.
Here we are in the in the schoolroom, which is perhaps not as impressive as it might be, but it's not bad.
It's uh, don't they say, this is like the, everyone slept in this room when they 1st crashed.
Oh, initially.
That was the 1st building that they built and then it just became the centre of the of the village.
And I do think that the village, like the township is convincing as well with the little animated windmills, you know, producing power and stuff.
It's not.
Lots of lovely dude.
Oh, I love this bitchiness between the 2 kids.
Your spots don't make you special, all right?
It's just genetic And here we get O'Brien's reaction to this kid being called Molly.
He's a bold, isn't he?
Molly.
Well, and but I was a bit as well.
I think it's a perfect choice.
It's no, there's a proper Molly back on the station and I'm never going to see her again, right?
Is that what that's what we're potentially facing here?
And so he's hostile to that, Molly, even though it's not her fault and he knows that.
But he's standoffish and doesn't want to interact with her until the very end and it's her. really, I think, who convinces him?
There's a great scene where everybody's out in the square and they're all getting on with their descendants and talking, O'Brien's just there with a pad and the 2 kids are watching him.
The look he throws them.
He's like, I reject you outright.
All right.
Yeah.
Which is natural.
It's perfectly natural.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, because I mean, if they left, do you know what I mean?
If they just decided to leave, like that's not wrong.
Is it?
Like, that's not wrong.
They're not doing anything wrong.
But they come to understand that these are just people, they're not a time anomaly or anything like that, and that they, they have to make sacrifices or, or see those people disappear.
I like the fact as well that when it is revealed the, yeah, to fake the logs and he was trying to recreate the action.
He's not then the villain of the piece.
He was just a man that was trying to save 8000 people.
And how could we possibly say that is a bad thing?
No, he doesn't seem to have done the wrong thing.
I think, like, he takes their agency away from them or something, but, you know, like if they had come down and were threatening 8000 people with a big gun, he would have been fine to just bash them on the head until they were unconscious and then bury them somewhere.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, you know, like, I think that, like, this is the one time paradox, the morality of which I think is really clear and it's a pretty clever premise, I think.
When I 1st watched this, I do remember this was the point where I was going, oh, really, they're going to make a quantum duplicate of the defiant as they get out claws.
So I was so happy when it turned out that that was absolute bobbins and it couldn't exist at all.
I mean, it's almost the same.
It's almost the same graphic that we have explaining the 2 writers, you know, in 2nd chances.
Um, that they're split for space reasons.
And we've had, you know, we've had the spare Janeway a couple of times, maybe not a couple of times by this point, but, you know, like a spare ship, you can help yourself to that for space reasons and then go off.
He has that really relaxed Dak's nature. doesn't he?
Yeah, Drew.
I like it and he laughs a lot as well.
I don't know.
I just was really drawn to that character.
And I was like, do you know what I could have done with a bit mortgage, Ren, actually.
Yeah, he's really good, isn't he?
He is really good.
Okay.
So we're going to try and get this plan going now.
Yeah, I mean, you know, they are still stranding them.
Do you know what I mean?
Like this where he touches, yeah, anything for you, old man.
The smile.
Oh, boy.
Yeah, yeah, it's wild.
Oh, is an extraordinarily good in this episode.
And you know what, normally, when you put him in these sort of sci-fi episodes, he's a bit adrift, isn't he?
line.
Apparently the planet is crawling with machines.
Oh, stay here.
Well, then he puts the goo in the box and goes, sweet dreams, Odo.
The breakmaker.
We'll put him on regular 4 for 20 minutes.
Look at him flirting with Nana now.
Yeah.
Look it.
The vein is bulging on his head.
He's so turned off by it.
I mean, they have just had a kid, let's be honest. you know. beautiful Django.
I know, I know.
Well, look how beautiful his parents are. boy, yeah.
Do you know?
I mean, I don't know if you've seen them.
The relationship didn't work for whatever reason.
They're so close still, a pair of them.
Which is very nice to see.
Yeah.
Oh, this is great.
She goes over to Odo to respect him.
And then, boom, we've got an empty space on the screen, so clearly someone's coming in.
Now, what did you think about the sort of more relaxed makeup?
Oh, I just, I mean my god, so much better.
Like so much better.
And when you see him again, at the end, he's like, fuck.
We're going to smooth out any attempt of you having a performance, okay?
Use your eyes.
Yeah.
And like he's still got, you know, like a silly forehead and stuff like that in the terrible wig and theory.
The way he starts touching her face.
She's like, what the hell is happening here?
She's never, ever conceived of the idea, has she, whilst he's been longing after her?
Yeah.
Well, he's so contained, isn't he?
I mean, he's so content.
And that is believable, right?
that over 200 years that he would learn to interact with people in a more intimate way.
And it's just so nice to see Renault so relaxed.
Oh, yeah, no, he's so good.
I mean, even that shocking episode Oasis where we got to see him out of makeup and we were able to kind of see just how good he is.
I mean, the fact that he's he's acting through that fucking slap for, you know, 7 years.
Oasis episode.
And doing aggressive.
So boring, Nathan.
You have to remind me that Renee was in it for me to recall anything about it at all.
It was very boring.
But Renee was great in it.
I like as well.
She asked, why didn't you say anything for one?
and we should have said, well, I did, but you was a great crystal at the time and a shapeshifter.
No, no, but she also says, I'm really sorry.
I spent all that time going on about all the people I was having relationships with.
You must have been really hurt by that.
I really love Kira as a character.
She's so thoughtful.
Yeah, she's saying that now and he's saying, well, look, you know, like I didn't think we could be together, but I wanted to be a supportive friend, you know, like whatever.
And that's why I genuinely think the relationship works.
I know some people don't.
But I think you can have just a very mature friendship that blossoms into something more.
I buy it.
Well, I think they sell it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, they've got Vic Fontaine and Kira singing Fever.
Like, you know, who could resist that?
And just now, doesn't he take her hand to walk her out the room?
I love I just love the tenderness between the 2 of them.
Mm, mm.
Because now we get this religious thing as well.
So she...
Oh, sorry to interrupt, Nathan.
Oh, this.
No, we have to go run the baby.
I mean, he's going...
Did you hear?
Everything's going to be okay.
And the baby's like, woo.
It's so gorgeous.
Everything's gonna be all right.
Sounds like you got your hands full, Benjamin.
And then they vote from the cup of the sky.
But that must be Avery improvising, right?
I don't know what the baby's gonna do.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, it's a By all accounts, Nathan.
They didn't like that sort of thing on Star Trek.
They wanted you to be script perfect and no improvisations.
Yeah, yeah.
I don't think people say no to Avery Brooks, so...
No, no.
And I think when there's a baby in there, you just have to let the actor do what they want.
Yeah, so this is the scene.
Oh no, is it?
Yeah, I think the Klingons come along in a second.
Yeah, they're here.
They're here.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Here they are.
I was like, oh, God, what a Klingon.
I was really expecting like the worst. then they came along.
You were expecting the kid from real life. something like that, yeah.
And I just like the fact that they're all very underplayed.
You know, that was grunting or anything.
No.
And I like it too.
And you kind of get the sun by blood sun by choice thing.
We live as warriors and you've got wharf liking that.
And Worf doesn't react badly because this little blonde kid wants to be a Klingon too when he grows up and wants to live like that too.
And, you know, like the beautiful young woman there who doesn't have any ridges or anything like that, you know, um, But like I just like all...
Bear in mind.
It gives him something to do. the season we had let he who is without sin.
So they're still figuring out war for the start of the season.
Then we had that amazing episode that you and I did by Inferno's live.
Do you remember when he was fighting the Jemadar?
That's where the point where I think they absolutely got him.
And now, I don't think he, Michael Dorney, he doesn't feel the need to sort of show off.
He has lots of subtle moments in this episode where he really impresses.
We'll keep talking about that moment between him and Kira when we come to it.
I even like the dreadful line of time is their enemy.
We must help them to defeat it.
Well, I kind of, I do kind of, I like that because I, like, what is he supposed to do?
Because he's got his own moral dilemma, they don't want to just be winked out of existence and never get to go to Stovercourt.
They want a warrior's death and they want him to provide it and maybe he has to do that.
Do you know what I mean?
And it's part of, uh, like it's part of him coming on board the idea that we should strand ourselves here.
Were we happy together?
He's a good man, Jazzia.
I mean, I like it when it goes.
I can still remember Worf saying his vows.
He was shaking.
But it's little details like that.
If you're going to do backstory, you need little character details like that.
Otherwise, it's just a big ugly tree.
Yeah.
Well, there's enough time for all of this to happen.
Yeah, this.
You've got Julian really excited about his offspring and then O'Brien, who has children already.
He already has children whom he will never see again.
The only thing I object to is we're back into sleazebashir territory.
Angie Keleby.
She's gorgeous, you know, like...
Oh, I've got a wife and kids back home.
I've just got to let you get on your work, all right?
I'll go and see some morbish shoes.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, I like this.
I mean, I do like it.
I think the O'Brien stuff is maybe the best of those of those backstories because he's the one that we have to convince.
It's not backstories. character arcs here.
He's the one that we need to convince.
He's the one who wants to move.
The strongest voice in that terrific scene where they're all fighting out the point as to whether to go back or not, isn't it?
He's the one that's saying, I'm sorry, you have no right to tell me, I can't go back to my wife and kids.
And it's one of those DS9 moments where you've got a problem and there are lots of opposing voices in the scene.
And that's just good drama.
Because, you know, Cisco, say, go, we're not actually considering doing this, but I want to hear what you've got to say.
Yeah, and he's not wrong.
I mean, he isn't wrong.
This thing, like, do you think that that big giant tree is there for thematic reasons as well, because we're talking about descendants and families, and we're also talking about the way that our life follows lines and branches off and stuff, and she's in this situation where we're about to, there'll be 2 curers, and one will stay here and die, and one will go back to the station, and she thinks that that's violating the way that her life should be, you know linear and singular.
I like to think that Alan Coreka is a thoughtful win-off director for that, to be deliberate, but even if it's accidental, it works.
Yeah, yeah, there's so much plant stuff.
I mean, that whole final scene, which is all about planting, like seeds, you know, planting seeds in the ground.
It's all about the future and that big giant tree, the big ugly tree and that shot. is, you know, all about the past and about timelines ramifying and about, about family trees growing.
Just that landscape behind them, right?
It's so beautiful.
We're so used to DS9 being set in under lit, dark sets.
It's just so refreshing.
But also, it is also constantly showing you what a wonderful place this is to live.
You know, these people have tamed the land and deserve to be here.
Yeah.
Mind you, it's fucking windy as here.
No, for me, that's the perfect weather.
Sunny with a bit of wind.
That's what I like.
It's quite different in England, as you know.
Yeah, snow.
Oh, these beautiful shots where they're in silhouette walking off together.
Mm.
Mm.
And I like the fact that Kira is willing to explore being intimate with him as well.
Not in, like, she does kiss him later, but oh, even Cisco just playing ball.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And again, remember what ball was about in the 1st episode, the whole baseball thing was the show. you know, it's time and cause and effect and all sorts of stuff.
But I like this as well.
It goes over with Dak, so she's got to tell him how it's all been faked.
And then he throws the ball one last time, behind his back.
Yeah, behind him.
I think he's saying, how many things can I get past the producers in this one?
Let's see.
But this is so great.
Like, this is such a surprise.
Because we think we know how this is going right now. just going to be philosophical debate about the 2 defiance and what does that mean and no, the whole thing was a massive lie and now we we have got to make a choice.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's really good, isn't it?
It's such a surprise.
And like, look at Dax's reaction. to that.
Watch Terry in this next seat.
I mean, I think the dialogue in this next scene.
Cisco saying, who are you to say who lives or dies?
Who are you to make that call?
It's really good dialogue.
And the fella playing Yedrin is magnificent in this scene.
But Terry, Terry.
Yeah, but look at...
She's really angry.
From the sort of the middle of the scene.
She's absolutely silent and she's extraordinarily good.
You think I don't care, Cisco goes, come on, you know me better than that. even though we've just met.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Oh, there's your argument.
Who's to say what's supposed to happen?
What's supposed to happen?
You know, there's the correct timeline.
There's the not correct timeline. none of that stuff matters.
You don't have a responsibility to keep to stop change, you know, to not change the timeline, because you do it every day, every time you do something, every time you make a choice.
Even these details.
I'm not saying it's not going to be hard at first.
It is, and Kira will die, but look around you for God's sakes, there is a community of wonderful people here.
Well, and I love that Kira is a religious person is, is willing to do that, willing to lay down. a couple of moments in DSlight, which she makes calls like that. and I like it every single time.
Now, look, he goes right after Jazir and goes, you know, you know you should have been more careful going through that barrier.
You know you're responsible for all of this.
And I carried that guilt for 200 years.
So, yeah, great.
Yeah, yeah.
She's really cross though, isn't she?
She's so and cross with herself.
This is so cross with herself rather than Yedrin.
But, I mean, Yedrin isn't doing the wrong thing.
He's not obviously doing the wrong thing, like lying.
Yeah.
I mean, he's putting his weight in this scene.
I mean, this is his one and only Star Trek episode, you know, he could be totally out of his death.
We've seen it a lot, you know, with guest actors.
Imagine if we had that kid from the outrageous O'Connor playing this role.
You know?
That's right.
That's right.
No, he's properly good.
I think he's really, really good.
And I think having, you know, like having him be the existing Dax.
I mean, that was part of a thing, isn't it?
That, you know, this beautiful young woman who's our science officer also happens to be his mentor.
Now this character is in the same situation, so they have this pre-existing relationship, and you've got our, you know, one of our characters, our Dax, who has already tried to make this decision on our behalf.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, has tried to take that decision away from everyone else.
But is kind of right in some sense to do that.
All the best dilemmas in Star Trek are.
And I think Kurtisman Trek excels at this, but every now and again, 90s Trek hits it bang on the now, like here.
Both sides of the argument.
Oh, right.
They have every right to go home and be with their families.
He gets to go and see Jake.
Absolutely.
They have right to exist.
So what the hell?
do you do?
Yeah, and I think that the decision that they make is the right one.
You know, like if, if they, if, you know, they wanted to take off and go home, but the defiance, um, Warp Core was going to poison the whole planet and kill everyone.
Obviously they can't go.
Do you know what I mean?
They can't go.
How is this any different?
Well, and they put in what we do often get in these episodes, which is some dreadful techno babble get out claws, and then that turns out to be absolute bullshit.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So we're just left with the decision.
Ah, it's really good.
Like, do you remember Tubix?
you know, like, yeah, absolutely.
Tubix has a right to exist and Chevac and Neelix have a right to live their lives.
But at the end of that episode, it's Janeway committing murder.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I don't know that I like that.
I mean, it's unforgettable, but, well, and that's why it works, I think.
But yes, it does seem wrong.
And certainly when, um, when Miglimo or whatever, it's a Dr. Tahana and Mick Lamar, I can't remember, in 2 vics on lower decks, when they discover what Janeway did, they're horrified.
I'm glad people are still talking about it.
No one can believe it.
And she's an admiral, you say?
Oh my god.
She murdered anyone this week.
Oh, one or two.
I mean, the fact that that does that happen again then?
Is there a 2nd transporter accident?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, on board Voyager.
Yeah.
Yeah, because it's the, you know, well, it's lower decks, but its voyage is like a museum and the orchid is there, you know, like the whole thing.
To have one hybrid transporter Raxton could be considered a misfortune dot, dot, dot.
Well, you know, every 30 years.
I think you can probably have one.
Oh, this is something.
I can see the Klingon heartbeat strong here.
He's so kind to them.
Well, that's right.
And I think we've seen situations in the past where he's kind of gate kept who's allowed to be a Klingon and who's allowed not to be a Klingon, maybe in birthright part two, which I can barely remember, but it's possibly what's going on there.
But here he just accepts them because they've, you know, they've accepted this thing that he values.
This is so good.
Very often it was the other way round that I objected to was when he tried to behave like a Klingon and Picard and people like that would be like, no, you know, you can't behave like that on this ship.
How dare you?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, because that's right.
This kid, this, um, the, is it Brotar?
I can't remember what that character's called.
But he nearly died. in a hunting incident, and now he wishes he had died.
Like, I think this is really...
There is so much happening in this episode, right?
This scene where they're basically saying, kill us, Worf, because we will just cease to exist rather than going out in glorious death.
That is a whole premise of an episode elsewhere.
Sons of Mogue, when Kern asks Wolf to kill him.
Here, it's just a throwaway scene because there's so much else going on.
But I mean, no one's wasted here.
Everyone on board the Defiant has some interaction with the people here that helps them come to the decision that they will strand themselves here so that those people can.
This is one of the most beautifully shot DS9 scenes.
I mean, that afternoon sunshine.
And of course, Nanar looking absolutely stunning.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's really good.
But also, like Renee getting to have a facial expression.
You wouldn't think it would be a big ask, would you're in television?
but here we are.
You are right though. making that decision.
Yeah, look, this is where I'm supposed to die.
That's, that's how I've lived my life with, I have one fate, not two.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, and...
But what can we do?
Do you know what I mean?
Like, what can we do?
That's, that's, and then I'm gonna die.
But even him saying, I don't know those people, that doesn't matter, does it?
that doesn't matter.
Well, he realises it.
That doesn't matter.
No, that's right.
At this point, yeah.
I mean, no, I mean, God, I'd want to come home to Mark.
Of course I would, you know, but like if I spent enough time with those people.
Jesus.
I love Wolf saying, yeah, do you know what?
You're afraid to face your destiny.
Brian goes, well, that's all right for you.
You hardly ever see your son.
So they do get a bit narky, you know?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But I mean, wharf saying no, like we doing the wrong thing by these people, by these young people that he was speaking to in the previous scene.
I'm pleased as well.
It doesn't agonise over Cisco and Jake.
There's one mention where he goes, I know, I couldn't live with the fact that you'd never get to see Jake again from Yedrin.
And that's enough.
It's enough.
And we're going to have that later.
And they probably have worked that out by now.
Do you think?
Like, this is very near the end of series five.
I like the fact that Kira thinks because she's made the decision that that's the decision, right?
Because when Cisco goes, no, we're not considering this.
And she goes, captain, you know, like, I'm saying I'm happy to die here.
Did you see those windmills in the background there?
God, are they ugly on the on the horizon?
Ruining the landscape.
Yes, why can't we have an old-fashioned coal fire plant belching particulates in the air?
useful, those windmills, you know.
Especially when they're insane, lovely. yeah incredible.
Oh my god, we're heading into the Waltons now, the planting scene.
Yeah.
But look at, look, that's a decent size set, isn't it?
That's like, there's some depth to that.
That's that's not minuscule.
But just this, there's not much time.
We are going to plant things because.
We don't have a future.
You know, we will not exist by the time the sunsets.
But let's spend our, like, how do you spend your last day?
you know, how do you spend your last day?
Following the field. as a community.
Yeah, doing what you would have done anymore.
And let's just go getting his hands dirty and everyone's joining in, except O'Brien at this point, but he's soon told off.
Oh, I love this old deer planting the flat.
She's so happy putting her tree in.
I'm just so convinced this is a community though. and it's Star Trek rarely does this for me when we go and visit communities of the way, yeah.
All, no, that's right, but just this, just the physicality of planting things in the ground, like having them do a thing rather than just talk about doing it, and seeing all those plants, all of that stuff, it shouldn't be remarkable, but, but it is, you know, just because of the way this show's made.
Yeah, he's not participating, is he?
He's got a...
You got to help, says Molly.
You don't look busy to me.
He goes, she's an O'Brien, all right.
Is he?
You better get...
And then he's laughing.
Cisco, when he walks away from him, giving him the trowel.
Yeah, yeah.
Good. doing that bit.
Oh, and here comes Warf and the Klingons.
Yeah, but he smiles, doesn't he?
smiles at Molly and he's been rejecting her.
Because it's not the proper Molly.
It's so well shot this, isn't it?
Everyone's reactions.
There's loads of reaction shots.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
To just help to sell the, that's a try.
This is as triumphant as that moment when the Klingon fleet appears in sacrifice of angels.
But in a very different way.
Yeah, and 0 my god.
I'm so pleased.
I mean, it's such a mixed race colony as well.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right.
That's right.
And that's what's good too, is that the Klingons aren't outsiders or they're not out enemy, but they're just people who've chosen to live their lives another way.
This isn't the masterpiece society or something like that.
This is a place where people live in freedom and have some chance to determine what their life is going to be like.
They live well.
And this, I have a little girl called Molly too.
Can I get to meet her?
He goes, we'll see.
Yeah, we'll see.
And that by some of this plant will be taller than you.
And so she's talking about the future.
It just, it sparks something in him, doesn't it?
Yeah, it's really good, isn't it?
And look, because Colm is so good.
I mean, you know, we don't talk quite enough about how it is.
It's because it's for him, isn't it?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's a shame.
And then he just comes up and says, yes, we have to, we can't, we can't go.
I just can't get enough of seeing Nanara in the sun.
Yeah, radiant, she is.
Oh, and then the kids play.
Oh, it's just so beautiful that scene.
So, so stunning.
Yeah.
Why aren't all my concepts episodes as good as space?
Yeah, I know.
Why aren't they as good?
Why are they not aiming before?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Think about Meridian.
They're like, no, sorry, we're not going out on location again till time's orphan now.
Sorry.
Oh, and this.
Cisco doesn't say a word.
He holds Molly...
Is it Molly?
Miranda's hand.
And then hugs Yedrin.
And it's all just done with the music and the reactions.
Oh, she's beautiful though, isn't she?
Miranda's, that expression that we go out on her kind of being stricken.
Ah, my.
Like DS9 can make me feel in a way that modern TV makes me feel, but this is an extraordinarily good episode for the feels.
It's really good.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And we still haven't got to the big shock yet.
No.
Oh, I did think the framing of this scene was very interesting.
You know, when they give the kiss and they sort of pull away from each other and the cameras, so they're sort of mirrored in the in the corridor.
Oh, gosh, look at him with his normal face.
He hasn't quite got the eye wrinkles right, but like it, it's such, so much better choice.
Why didn't they just go, I've learnt this from the other Odo?
I can look like this now.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I love...
The fact that she's willing to give him a kiss as well.
Like, yeah, although I do think that that's, I do think that that's Nana being pulling away.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, just being a little bit tentative around the makeup, I think.
Well, not a bad idea given the result in his way, but she ended up with that eggy rubber all around her mouth.
But that was a hell of a kiss.
I mean, I wouldn't swap that his way kiss for anything.
No, no, fantastic.
And do you know what?
Don't laugh at me.
I actually thought the music was great in this scene.
As they approach it and it's building and building and getting louder, and I just remember being a kid going, what the hell's going to happen?
I have no idea. can this happen?
So do you know what the original thing was?
Tell me.
It was Yedrin.
Oh.
Yeah.
Why?
He just couldn't go through with this.
He, he, he had lied to them and tried to trick them into doing it and because he'd been shamed by Dax and because he couldn't ask them to give up their lives, you know, he, he couldn't ask them to do this for him to never see their home again, to strand themselves here. think I prefer what they go with.
I think it is better, but you can see that it heads in that direction and that it was.
Well, they say it. well, if it's yeah, true. because it's Dax.
You know what I mean?
It's Dax.
It's a Dax, does it rather than Odo does it, but one of our characters does.
Do you remember they're posing it in the corridor and they go, Yedrin, do you think?
Yeah, Drin.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But like that was the original idea.
And then they go...
It wasn't me.
But it's such a shock, isn't it?
Because, like, you see the them heading towards the bruised thing anomaly thing, and then they just don't hit it, and you kind of go, wait, what's happened then?
So are those people all gone?
I think the biggest shock for me is the loss I feel of characters that I've only known for 40 minutes and how effectively I've been sold that.
So I just feel like, no, this is wrong.
Those people deserve to exist.
Yeah, yeah.
So someone who's a member of the crew.
And so Yedron is who they guess at, and that makes sense.
What would have changed his mind?
Do you think Kira Terrelson?
It was like, no, actually, it was Odo, or just lets them keep guessing.
Yeah, so I think that I buy that.
I buy that ending.
He couldn't let us go through with it.
He couldn't let us strand ourselves here.
And yeah, they never existed.
They did exist.
We'll always remember the other thing.
Yeah, that marvellous afternoon planting the siege. you remember?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's right.
Yeah, I'm sorry.
Look at that bed.
As if I'll try isn't more miserable enough.
Well, she should take her boots off though.
Do like that they give us an actual definitive answer that the answer makes sense and you can take it back to that scene a minute ago where she said, yeah, maybe we would have had a chance.
There's a motive.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But it's also mental.
Do you know what I mean?
Like he's a nutcase and like he's prepared to let all of these people die in order.
You know, that's like, that's terrifying.
That's run a mile.
But if it had been, it's not...
Yeah, to redact, so not, we're having the same thoughts about Dax, then, of like, well, she's prepared to...
No, because Yedrin, like Yedrin Dax.
It's not quite the same thing.
It's kind of like he's been in love with her for 200 years and has thought about nothing other than her and when it comes to choice between her dying and 8000 people whom he's lived with for 200 years dying.
He has no qualms making the decision.
You know, like, that's creepy, weird stuff.
And with Yedrin.
I think it's that he caused this thing.
He can't do this to them again.
And it's still the wrong decision, but you, it seems just a little bit less serial. great gut punish though, isn't it?
Because we're left then thinking, well, what possible future can this pair have?
No, that's right.
That's right.
And they don't follow it up.
They don't follow.
Well, maybe they talked about it in the closet.
You know, we weren't privy to those conversations.
That was one of the things.
Yeah, the closet.
But like, he tells her this now, and that's what we go out on, is just her absolute horror.
She just goes, what Odo does.
Look at, look at her.
But it's Odo, you did that.
That makes it right.
Oh, she's living.
That makes it much worse.
If you think you're getting a date now, you are wrong.
I don't care how many Sinatra songs you sing to me.
But that is actually a great ending.
Had it not gone anywhere.
Had the relationship, that he finally reveals the relationship, but then it's kind of wrecked by what old Odo does.
Look at the shot that we go out on.
You know, it's pretty amazing.
There are six, 60 Space 9 episodes that end on stunning Kera and Odo scenes, right?
Oh, okay.
Unfortunately for you, I am going to detail them all.
Necessary evil, which is that amazing bit where Odo realises that Kira murdered somebody and wasn't honest about it.
And then you have the inverse of that, which is Things Past, where Kira realises that Odo didn't adequately investigate the 3 Bajorans that were killed by the Cardassians.
So it's a deliberate mirror room there.
You've got the astonishing scene at the end of Chimaera where Kira comes in and says, I want to know you, show me who you are, and he turns into the beautiful light around him.
Um, Obviously, this, this is number, this is number four.
You've got the incredible scene at the end of behind the lines where Odo has been seduced by the female shapeshifter and Kira goes to his quarters and smacks the door so hard she nearly takes it off and she basically says we're done.
The 2 of us, like, you made your choice, Rom's in prison, and the dominion they're going to take over.
And there's also a wonderfully, we've already done it.
Treachery faith from the Great River where he comes to the realisation that whatever happens in this war, I'm going to lose and it's her that he shares that.
It's just a guaranteed winner to end on an emotional beat with Nanar and Renee, I think.
Yeah.
And particularly since Renee hasn't been here for any of this and hasn't experienced it, has never seen the other, you know, other Odo.
And so it's that strange sort of thing where Kira understands the emotional weight of what's happened, but he doesn't, and that's kind of their dynamic anyway, is she has a clearer idea of feelings and how she feels about things, and he's awkward around all of that sort of stuff.
And so he doesn't quite understand her reaction, I think, and that sells it really well.
But it could have been like if they decided not to take the relationship any further.
It's another one of those little outs, I think, you know, like in Muse, where it looked like they were going to take him in another direction with Loxana and that ends up not going there.
This is another road not taken.
We could have just ended the relationship there and it would have actually been a pretty brutal and thrilling ending, I think.
I'm glad that we go on, you know, like I'm glad we don't.
You wouldn't need the conversations after this.
Like, that's an impactful enough that you'd be like, okay, fine.
Oh, yeah.
The line's drawn, you know?
You're a nutcase.
I do like to think that they did discuss this for at least an hour in the closet, though.
All right.
Remember the time we was on that planet?
you know, with our descendants. yeah.
You know, if you try pulling any of that shit now, 200 years, we are through.
I think they probably knew.
We've got good scripts here, and, you know, we're going to give it to a good director, and our characters are in a good place, that when this episode was put together, and they saw the creative sat back and watched it, that they were over the moon with how this one turned out.
And it's so not DS9.
I mean, it is in the in that it's character first, but we just don't very often do in the last 3 years, these sort of wacky high concept premises of the week, and it fucking aces it.
No, well, that's what I said.
This is the last episode to feature the Gamma Quadrant. you know, before things like Meridian and the storyteller and the things where we go off world and encounter a space thing were where we thought the show was going to go and it's not where the show ends up going at all, but this one last one of these is so good.
You know, like they actually nail it.
This is a Star Trek, the next generation premise, or an enterprise premise, and Deep Say Snight comes in and just does it miles better than either of those 2 shows would have.
Most of the sort of high concept episodes in 6 and 7 because we're nearly at 6 at this point.
They're comedies, right?
It's better being better bang.
Take me out to the hall of sweet, the magnificent Ferengi, profit and lace.
You know, they are, it's sort of the funny episodes of the week.
So I'm pleased if this is sort of, I mean, one little ship is a TNG mad high concept brand, but it is a Dominion War episode as well.
So we're sort of in a different place.
Yeah.
This, like you said, there's no dominion.
There's no Deep Space 9.
You know, all the regulars are on a starship in this.
You could transfer this to any other show.
It would just be really shit.
That's all.
All right, it's the end of the episode and it's time for us to work out where we're going next.
This was your choice, Joe. An excellent episode, and so it's time for me to ruin everything.
I can't possibly so soon do another episode of Enterprise, but we are going to do the single most neglected 90s Star Trek series.
Can't be Next Generation still.
No, it's Voyager.
Oh, wow.
Although, can I correct you, please?
I mean, I think technically this was your excellent choice of what we've just done.
Remember, I was hovering all the time.
I put a stop to you changing thing. sound creative choices you make on this thing.
Although that's shit to be determined.
That's right.
We are about to choose a Voyager episode.
All right.
So here goes...
Manoeuvres, which we've done already.
Episode 140.
Oh, you remember what that one was?
Hello, Chakotay.
I've got your baby here.
That's good.
Season two, episode 11.
All right.
Let's try another one.
I don't know what this one is.
What's it called?
Random Star Trek.
Voyager episode is season five, episode eight.
Nothing human.
Oh, tedious.
Absolutely tedious.
It's one of these sort of moral medicine episodes, you know, where the doctor's got to do some kind of a transfusion.
It's very boring.
Okay, let's not do that.
Oh, it could be this one.
It could be in either direction.
Call A-wise.
Your random Star Trek Voyager episode is season five, episode five, once upon a time.
Oh no.
This is so bad this episode that even my much favoured listening experience, Trek ranks who love all the Star Trek. hate this one.
So with no shadow of a doubt, you are going to love it.
I think I might.
So you do know that the 2nd most recent episode of Star Trek Strange New Worlds is called Once La Arn a Time.
Um, and it's the sequel to the Elysian Kingdom, which we've already done.
And I think we both know people remember this. more fun than once upon a time or whatever the score.
Like, I mean, if we do do this, yeah, which I think maybe we should, because we can do comparisons to the TNG episode with Laxana, where they go into the holodeck and meet loads of wacky characters, maybe we could watch that one as well alongside it and see how they compare.
But also, I'd like to tell you that season five, episode 5 of D Space 9 is that truly incredible episode where Rosalind Chow gets to camp it up as the evil par Rafe, all right?
So...
This is Andy Wildman, and...
Oh, and Trebus, right?
Boy, 0 boy.
Let's give us that.
We've we've done quite a bit of crap Star Trek lately.
Let's...
We could rub it for a while.
We could.
Okay, your random Star Trek Voyager episode is season two, episode 22, Innocent.
Oh, no, Ghastly.
That's the one with Chewpac and those 3 moppets down on the planet.
Do you remember?
A dreadful forest, say it.
And they're all whining at him for the whole episode and then the twist is, well, I won't tell you the twist because you'll remember when you watch it.
Yeah, ageing in the wrong direction.
They get younger rather than older.
But it's just like Tuvok babysitting for an episode.
Please press it again.
Don't make me watch that.
Let's not do that.
Alice.
Season six, episode five.
Well, he was hit and miss forager, wasn't it?
Yeah, it was.
They said John Fleck in it, though.
Okay.
Ah, okay.
Your random Star Trek Voyager episode is season two, episode 2 initiations.
Initiations?
What the hell's that about?
Is that the one with Aaron Eisenberg in it?
Yes, yeah, it's the one with him as a young Kazon.
Now, I don't object to doing that at all.
And I realise we've been pressing the button for a little while, but we have done a lot of too.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
All right.
All right.
Well, do another one.
Whatever this one is.
I'm not embarrassed yet.
Whatever this works. might be really terrible.
Oh, okay.
Your random Star Trek Voyager episode.
It's season six, episode 13, virtuoso.
Oh, this is absolutely ghastly.
Please can we do this one?
It's operatically terrible.
It's the best, Robert?
No.
Yes, yeah, but when I say operatically, it's because he sings opera.
The episode.
It's Planet of the Little People.
I mean, what could possibly go wrong?
Oh no.
And they were racist.
Yeah, they've all got like smell of voices.
They've given them all...
Oh no.
And the doctor has in his resignation and says, I want to be on the planet of the little people because they appreciate my singing.
I mean, it's so bad.
It's up to you.
I'm happy to keep going, but we do have to do all these ones.
No, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know.
All right, all right. do another one.
We've done this one.
Your random Star Trek Voyager episode is season two, episode 18 Death Wish.
Oh, I enjoyed that one.
You were too sure, were you?
No.
Come on, the Thor.
Can't you pull the 4 out of your old?
No, but I have done this one.
Your random Star Trek Voyager episode is season five, episode three, Extreme Risk.
No, that's another terrible blonde...
So it's... doing extreme sports.
She's got this massive plastic skeleton on her chest for our most of the episode.
It's really, that's the one where he's sort of talking to the Cardassian doctor, I think.
No, it's the one where she's pushing herself into extreme situations because of the death of all of the marquis.
It's so clumsy, though.
Okay. excellent. let's try another one Wait, there must be a good episode somewhere.
Mm.
It's part 2.
Uh-oh, of your random Star Trek Voyager episode is season three, episode one, basics, part two.
Oh, Christ.
Now, I mean, I think basics part one is a banger, and I think basics part two is... where everything goes wrong.
Falls to pieces.
Yeah.
It's pillars out.
Jerry's in and we're ditching everything we loved about series 2.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, it would be an interesting conversation.
But a lot...
Yeah, yeah, it is a bit of a long edit.
Go on, one more, one more.
All right, one more.
Your random Star Trek Voyager episode is season 5, episode 7, Infinite Regress.
Well, I don't remember a thing about that.
I think it's that's the one where 7 of 9's having sort of multiple personality syndrome.
That could be any episode.
Well, no, she's sort of going around behaving like a little girl and sort of suspicious trader and she's got all these sort of Borg personality stuck in her head.
That sounds terrible.
I think it kind of is. but Jerry's great in it obviously.
Oh, what do you think?
What do you think?
I think maybe just one more time.
See, it's like, what's the other one?
It's a little bit like, is it conspiracy?
No, not conspiracy.
There's another conspiracy theory sort of one where she...
Oh, the voice. conspiracy, yeah.
Yeah, which is just loads of talk.
And Jerry's really can't save it.
You know, she's superb, but she can't make it any better.
I never forget.
I mean, there's an ad break.
Yeah, which is just Jerry talking and talking and talking and talking and it goes into the abbreak with her just talking more conspiracies again and again and again and you're like, well, I don't want to come back to that.
So I'll switch over now.
Thank you.
No, I mean, that's very much like, you know, your insane auntie at Thanksgiving who watches a lot of Fox News, I think.
Oh, I've got a feeling.
If you do just press out one more time.
What we're going to get is a banger.
Okay, all right.
I see.
Is everyone's patience exhausted yet?
Your random Star Trek Voyager episode is season five, episode 13, Gravity.
Oh, God.
Are you deliberately going for all the boring ones?
No, it's just...
There are 5 episodes of series five.
You've gone for all the tedious ones.
1159.
Someone to watch over me.
I love him.
Yeah.
Why can't we have them?
Okay, come on.
If you want to cut any of these out, please.
Go ahead.
You could make this shot. against the rules.
Yes, the rule.
Please put it again.
It used to be our longest one ever.
Okay, here goes.
This is really bad.
You thought gravity was good.
The disease?
Nope.
Um, the one where they're on the orbital tether?
No, I quite like that one, even though it's terrible.
Your random Star Trek Voyager episode is season two, episode 4 Elogium.
Oh, this is one of the worst episodes of Voyager.
And it's right next to Twisted as well.
I think they were on the same VHS tape.
I hit a bit of a slump.
It's the one which is about Kes being pregnant and somehow entirely about what Neelix thinks about it.
Yeah, oh, no, I can't bear that.
I can't pay that.
All right, all right. one more Oh, they're ready good forger episodes.
Your random Star Trek Voyager episode is season five, episode 14, Bliss.
Oh my god.
That's that boring one where they're just seeing like the earth all the way through.
They just sit on the one more time.
Come on, come on, one more time.
One more time, one more time.
Okay, it's this.
Oh, finally.
Don't be too excited.
But I've hit my limit with your random Star Trek Voyager episode is season three, episode 19 Rise.
Oh, no.
Oh, I...
I did it to myself, didn't I, by mentioning the old...
All right, let's do it.
This is the one that everybody else thinks is the worst episode of Voyager, but it's kind of it is terrible, but it's kind of watchable because it's so terrible.
Like, I think that there's problems with it, and I think the biggest problem is that it's too late in the run to be doing this with Tuvok and Neelix.
Perhaps.
But I don't mind the special effect.
And, you know, there's a thing. don't know.
There's an incredible moment I will never forget where Tufok is supposed to be standing on the roof of the orbital tether, yeah.
And it's got all clouds around him, but they can't afford special effects.
So they've just put in a backdrop of clouds behind him, like paper mache cloud.
It is unbelievably bad, the special effects in this.
Oh, let's do it.
I mean, if nothing else, well.
I remember there being some particularly dismal guest performers in it as well.
I think there might be.
We could do a good contrast with children of time. absolutely.
All right.
We'll do it Jesus Christ.
Can I just say this at the end?
I can't believe we've spent 10 minutes and all we got was rise.
Duh.
It's a lot of effort to go to, isn't it?
Oh well.
Oh, dear.
You've been listening to untitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford and Nathan Bottomley, where online at Untitled Star Trek project.com, where you can find subscription links and links to our social media accounts.
Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceran, and the feed was composed by Cameron Lahn.
This episode was recorded on the 6th of October 2026 and released on the 9th of October.
We'll see you next time for Star Trek Voyager, Rise.
Well, I mean, we'll have fun with it.
I guess so.
Maybe it'd be better not to choose a whole thing.
Maybe in future, I could just go, let's pick a season 4 episode.
Like initiation isn't a bad episode, but it's not, it's not particularly great.
I mean, they're on location and it's got Aaron in it, but it's yeah, which is kind of interesting.
It's still that sort of oddly classist, slightly racist case of the stuff they were doing at the start.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I, um, yeah.
Well, good grief.
That really did prove that Voyager was an inconsistent run if we had to go through that many episodes to find something worth watching and it isn't even worth watching.
Imagine if you chosen 1159.
I mean, that's really, oh, really?
Love 1159.
Yeah.
I really like it actually.
Oh, I see.
This is what Kate Mulk looks like when she can just act, you know, when she just knows what's going on.
But it's just a, it's like a hallmark movie.
Like it's literally a hallmark movie, isn't it?
Like, like it's a romance, you know, like I really like it.
Yeah, I like the curmudgeonly old man who runs the bookshop as well, you know?
Yeah, I do too.
I do too.
It is really good.
It's quite funny, isn't it?
we only cut back to the Voyager crew.
It's like I've always said to you before, every time you they do episodes away from the Voyager crew, they're the best episodes.
It's like, what's it called?
The one in the future with the doctor.
Living witness.
Living Witness.
Yeah.
Or the one with the doctor and Andy Dick on the Romulan ship, you know?
Just all the best episodes. revolt revulsion?
No.
Oh, no.
I only did the other guy.
Revulsion's pretty good actually.
Yeah, revulsion's crime.
He's probably creepy, isn't he?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And it's not Eddie Dick, but it is another comedian.
Like it's a new...
Leyland Arthur, I think his name is.
Yeah, but he had a, he was a regular in something like news radio or something like that. can't remember.
I mean, I can't believe Joel Gray turns up in an episode of Voyager.
I mean, it's just...
Jesus Christ.
Have you seen that?
Yes.
Resistance.
Well, he's got the melon on his head.
For fuck's sake.
We wouldn't need to do Star Trek and we're going to put a melon on.
We're gonna have to measure you up for this melon.
I was in cabaret, you know.
That's right.
One of Academy Award.
Oh, bless.