Imposters
Star Trek: Picard
Series 3, Episode 5
Stardate: 78186.03
First broadcast on Thursday 16 March 2023
Episode 200: Imposters
Recorded on Tuesday 8 September 2026 · Download Episode 200: Imposters (81.9 MB)
Transcript
Hey, Joe. Hi.
So, welcome to our 200th episode, and I know, and tonight to celebrate, we are going to be watching our 1st episode of Star Trek Picard in quite some time.
It's Picard series 3, episode 5 Imposters, which actually aired on the 16th of March, 2023.
Well, I'm so pleased we've got Picard series 3 for our 200th episode, a huge love letter to Star Trek.
Yes, exactly.
Much like this podcast.
I was like this.
Well, mostly.
Mostly.
Occasionally we watch things not twisted, you know.
We hate because we care.
We still love it.
We do.
So the last time we did, the only other episode of Star Trek, Picard series 3 that we've done is the one immediately prior to this, which was called No Win scenario.
Oh, it was great.
And we did that, that's around about somewhere in the 90s.
So it's been a while since we did it.
And that was obviously the huge climax of kind of the 1st part of the season, which is the 1st confrontation with the shrike, essentially.
And getting Raffi to meet Wharf and stuff like that, we gradually kind of getting to the point where the whole crew is going to come together.
But it still looks like they're holding off.
There's still some important people that aren't in this episode.
But what I thought was really interesting about this was kind of the look of it, the fact that this season all appears to take place kind of over the course of a night.
Now, I know it doesn't.
I know it doesn't.
But because the lighting in the Titan is so dark and because most of the episodes are set on board the Titan.
We had that 1st big plot ending, and then the Titan comes back to Federation Space, and then, of course, uh, it leaves again, uh, because uh, we discovered during the course of this episode that the Federation itself has been compromised and we head off for kind of the rest of the plot, for the remaining 5 episodes to take place.
I know what you mean, though.
Like, there's a very how I met your mother final season about the 1st half of this, of sort of condensing a short period of time over a lot of episodes, giving us time to spend with these great characters.
I mean, the best thing about no-win scenario was all that stuff was sure.
Do you remember?
In the bar where he was condemning everybody.
It was just wonderful stuff.
And I didn't care that we weren't on, you know, space explorations or doing Tech the Babble or science problem of the week because the people are just so interesting.
We've also cherry picked 7 and all these great characters from other shows as well.
Changelings and things.
So hang time in the 1st half of the guard is not a bad thing at all.
I am in a position with this episode once again with Kurtzman Trek, where I've been dropped in the middle of the season, with a ton of running plots going on.
And as this is technically supposed to be watched as a whole, I was floundering a little bit towards the start of this going, oh, God, where the hell am I?
What's this episode about?
Is it about war for Raffi?
No, hang on.
It's about the ship coming to pick up Arden Riker.
No, it's not.
It's about the Dominion, it's about, I don't know.
I was so confused for about 15 minutes until Row turned up and said, you know, I'm taking you back. you're under arrest or whatever that zinger of a line shed was.
And I was like, oh, okay, that's kind of where we would be in your 90s trek episode at the end of the pre-credit sequence.
That shows you how much TV has changed from then to now that you can have 15 minutes of sort of running plots before you even get to what is really the focus of this as an individual piece, which is Rollo and coming back and her relationship with Picard.
So it was oddly structured, but I think it's oddly structured because of how I'm watching it rather than the episode in itself because I just don't think it's supposed to be watched like this.
No.
And I remember watching it at the time.
I think the 1st I was in a hotel near Heathrow airport watching episode one and I think I can't remember.
I must have been leaving the UK the next morning and going on holidays.
So I think I watched this while I was away, possibly by the end of episode five, I'm back in Australia watching it.
But I have a vivid memory of watching this season or the beginning of this season while I was away and certainly that very, very 1st episode, which is so striking and so interesting.
I was watching by myself in a sort of holiday inn near Heathrow Airport, I think.
And for me, I think this is really Star Trek, the Next Generation's 1st film, because there is a way, which, well, we're never really ever given the chance to miss Star Trek, the next generation before they're offshooting the next film.
And that's not what it's like for original track.
You know, we've given about a decade to kind of start missing them, and then we see them back, and having them meet again is a big deal, right?
And, you know, we only reluctantly get Spock and we only reluctantly get bones.
They're not sort of enthusiastic.
They've moved on with their lives.
Things have happened to them in the meantime that we are not aware of and that's an experience we've never had.
We never got that chance, I think, with the Star Trek, the next generation crew, because they're still doing their same job.
You know, we crashed the ship at the end of generations and there's a new ship for 1st contact and all of us are still on board it with the exception of war.
Well, you know, well, we did generations and the writers are still thinking they're writing a piece of television.
They're not right in the movie.
By the time you get to 1st contact, I think they are.
We sort of summed up generations as a two-part TV episode with better lighting, which I think is fair.
Yeah.
Whereas this, we've had the time for new things to happen to the characters and some of those new things we learned about in season one of Star Trek Picard in that wonderful episode Nepenthe, which we've already done.
And, you know, Deanna's not back, but she will be back and we'll be talking about that stuff towards the end of the season.
As a love letter to TNG ignoring Marina for half the season, it feels very accurate, doesn't it?
That's right. exactly what they used to do.
And of course, Marina was brilliant in Nepenthe and she is good when she comes back in this.
We haven't got Geordie yet, but we've got one of the 2 daughters that's mentioned in all good things and that Sydney.
Alondra, when she comes back later in the season, I think, is played by Lavar's daughter.
And we have, you know, a Beverly Crusher who's estranged from everyone who's just refused to see anyone for decades and decades and, you know, now has a big gun and stuff.
And she was really, really striking in that 1st episode.
It was really quite amazing.
You promised me she could act.
All right.
I saw no evidence of that.
In fact, there's one moment I will be howling when it hits.
She is doing a lot of medicine in this episode, which is never really her strong point as chief medical officer.
She addresses the camera with such drama in one moment.
She says, shut up.
Oh, I wish yeah.
Oh, shit.
Oh, boy.
And of course, we've got 7 who was brilliant and was brilliant all the way along.
I'm so glad that we got her for the very short run of this show and we get the incredible Todd Stashwick as Liam Shaw, who is just.
He is superb. the best character in this season, I think, by country model.
Is this the only season he does?
Sure.
Yeah.
See, once again, it's all the original characters on Picard that I love the most.
I don't need to see more of wharf using a bat left.
No, give me someone who's whose original and catty as fuck.
I mean, Jesus Christ.
He only gets a few lines in this, but he takes out half the crew with his lines.
I'll tell you.
He's really good.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, properly good.
I still don't remember what happens to him at the end.
Does he go on the ship with 7 at the end?
No, he's killed.
Oh.
Why do they keep murdering people in the season?
He instead of killed heroically.
It's a problem.
But, um, you know, there was that idea that Terry Mathilis had of Star Trek legacy, and apparently he desperately wanted them not to strike the Titan sets because he wanted a show with, you know, 7 and Raffi.
How long do you think they kept them erected for, Nathan?
Oh, no, the next day, I think.
But they, you know, it was going to end with 7 and Raffi and Jack Crusher.
And then people had the idea that we could have had a consulting hologram of Liam Shaw, you know, in the holiday who they could go and talk to and he would insult them or whatever.
But, you know, he's really properly great.
And it's one of those things where he's more like a real person and part of that is the swearing that he does and part of that is.
It's so funny when he's in a scene with Picard and Riker.
He's the only real person, isn't he?
No matter how much characterisation they're giving Riker and Picard now, right?
Next to a real person, they're still cardboard, the pair of them.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And he's great.
I mean, he's just terrific.
And I think the fella playing Jack Crusher is really good as well.
But as I said you in a message earlier, I think when they're leaning into him, as Picard's son, that's such an interesting story to tell, and they do really good stuff and get some great stuff out of Patrick Stewart as he's having to delicately deal with this awkward young man who he hasn't had a relationship with for all these years.
When we're doing all of these sort of portents of doom that are coming up later in the future.
I mean, my interest just flatlined in those bits.
I was like, I don't care.
Like what's happening here?
Although I did think that that did pay off in this episode, not just as a portent of what's happening and who he really is, but it does pay off with that outburst of violence where he kills the changelings at the end, the 4 changelings.
And so it is building up to that.
It's not just got a role in revealing who his character is later.
And I agree with you.
All the red tendrils and stuff, you know, what's going on there.
What's behind the red door?
What's behind that red door?
Game of Thrones, you got a lot to answer for, right?
But like all of that stuff, I think, is sort of visually super interesting and sort of fun and science fiction-y, but it isn't as good as the stuff that we had the previous episode, which was the stuff between Jack and his father, which was great in the previous episode.
And, you know, the father-son stuff that we have in a scene here that I think you were alluding to earlier.
I've got mixed feelings about Rowe as well.
One, I think Michelle Forbes is superb, and I think there's one moment that we both agree on that absolutely hits in the way that they want it to.
But on the other hand, I feel like they kind of misremember the relationship between Picard and Roe back in TNG, and there's a few lines of dialogue where she's talking about their relationship where I'm like, no, that wasn't at all what your relationship was back in TNG.
I don't know, the last 3 decades, me, you've forgotten what happened in those episodes.
And for Kurtzman Trek, which is usually very hot on remembering authentically.
It just struck me as a bit of a weird note.
And I do have mixed feelings about characters being brought back, legacy characters and then bumping them off and we do it with Shelby and we do it.
It happens a couple of times this year.
I'm just like, why can't anyone be happy?
Let someone leave someone left at the end to come back next season.
I mean, I would lose all of the other desks except for Elizabeth down here because that's hilarious, but I think that this one absolutely has to happen.
It has to be Michelle Forbes, and it really works in the context of the episode.
Honestly, though, I would have sent gates into that ship and just blow her up instead.
Well, then we couldn't have had the fun reunion at the end, though.
It's true I haven't gone back and watched Pre-empty Strike because I think it's terribly boring.
And so I can't really remember how that quite ends.
But we talked a bit last time about the McKee.
And so that conversation that they have about the marquee, where she says, I was doing what I thought was right, and I thought that I could rely on you to believe that, and I couldn't.
And I thought that was really good.
I thought that was properly good.
In a world where one Will Riker chooses the federation and the other one chooses them a key.
It's an issue on which people of goodwill can disagree.
And I, like I really understand her feeling that, um, his failure to accept that.
Um, was a personal affront.
But my suspicion is that he doesn't quite fail to accept that in quite the way that is suggested by this episode.
It's got all of the excitement of those 2 actors being together again and there's real electricity between them when they're playing against each other, which left me even more baffled because it takes so long for the episode to reunite them and then give them so few scenes together before she's off killing herself.
And I'm like, that's sort of the linchpin of this episode, but it's really only about 10 minutes of the 55 minute running time of this episode, which I thought game was a bit of an odd choice.
So, um, yeah, I did like this.
I do like this season.
I like the vibe of what's happening here.
Um, I, one last thing, may I, before we go in, I realise this is a long, a long tag.
But I have a real issue with the Star Trek fandoms, consensus view that series 3 of Picard in particular.
I know Lower Decks gets a pass as well.
But series 3 of Picard is just the best thing that Kurtzman brought out and it's the only, you know, relevant thing that Kurtzman brought out and and it's the only thing that isn't, you know, sacrificing the memory of Gene Roddenberry because it's bringing together all these same characters within the Enterprise Bridge and putting them up against the Borg and bringing in the changelings.
And do you know what?
It is just a load of old 90s ideas, characters and tropes.
Mush together, done extremely confidently, brilliantly lit.
I won't ever stop saying that, but kind of lazy.
It's kind of lazy.
It's a love letter, but it's kind of like, okay, yeah, they're going to love this. you know, what a way for Patrick Stewart to go out, back on the bridge of that tedious enterprise bridge set again, you know, weaving in and out of a ball cube, you know?
Whereas this show started in a dark, kind of insidious, controversial, uncomfortable, really interesting place.
I don't know if I like everything that happens in series one, but I was really engaged with what it was trying to do, and I feel the same about Discovery series one as well.
I really don't like a lot of what that's doing.
But there's something really enticing about them saying, you know what?
This is new and we ain't going to rely on all the old tire tropes, but they do.
They always do.
They always wind up going back to the nostalgic Star Trek well.
And it just annoys me.
It annoys me because I think it's sort of like the death of innovation in favour of nostalgia.
And I'm not saying this is bad stuff.
I'm just saying it's not trying as hard.
So I would have to say I agree with that, and I would also throw in Strangely World seasons one and 2 as a thing that gets a pass because it's doing the stuff that we've seen before.
And for me, that 1st episode of Discovery, like I was one right from the start because it's just like I have never seen Star Trek that looks like this or that works in this way.
And it's still recognisably Star Trek in all sorts of ways, but I don't know what this is going to do next.
I don't know what's going on.
And I've never seen anything as stunningly beautiful as this with Star Trek in the opening credits.
And for me, the Kurtzman track, that does push the boundaries, things like Academy, things like late, strange new worlds, things like Star Trek Discovery.
This particularly early seasons one and two, even section 31, for God's sake, which can't be said to be a success in any way, but it's all trying to do stuff that Star Trek hasn't done before.
And that's what Star Trek did, you know, like originally Star Trek was doing things that you had never seen on telly before.
And too many people, I think, want Star Trek to do things that they've been watching on telly for 60 years and will be upset if that's not what they get to see on any given night.
And I think it's a massive shame.
And like you, I think it's a huge drag on the franchise and its ability to innovate.
Our jammer.
I'm going to call him our jammer because we do use his website of law.
I love this episode.
And this was one of his favourite episodes of this.
Of course he loved it.
It's full of changelings.
It's full of Next Generation crew and people running around corridors with balsa wood gums.
And you know what I mean?
It's just like 90 strictness ever.
It's basically a bottle episode.
For God's sakes. money saver.
There's a few special effects.
Ashley.
Chop liver changeling is quite credible.
Actually, when we get there, chopped liver. what it looks like.
But he loves it, whereas he really, you know, that episode, what is it?
Dude, where's my car episode of St.
Wales despise that.
Do you know what I mean?
anything that's trying to really sort of think outside the box.
He's not so keen.
And I think he is indicative of that fandom, you know, of all the ones that sort of dress up and go to those fabulous conventions.
They want it to be like nighties trick. such a comfortable part of their childhood, that nostalgia, watching those thousands.
It felt like thousands.
There was a lot of episodes, you know, and a really comfortable time watching.
I understand it.
I just think it's not the approach that Star Trek should ever be taken.
Occasionally, yes, as a rule, no.
Like you said academy, I thought academy's 1st half an hour was extraordinary.
And then by the end of that episode, we were back in regular space things.
What was his name?
The Harry Mudd knockoff running around the ship, you know?
Yeah, yeah. rocks were exploded everywhere. you know they managed to get there within one episode.
Yeah, I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't want to criticise people for enjoying this stuff.
But God, man, don't we want Star Trek to renovate?
It should.
It always should.
Yeah.
Well, I think we should do it.
On that, no, we should go in.
Oh, we should.
You got a long edit ahead of you.
All right.
I am going to count us in.
Five, four, three, two, one and we're off.
Here's our old Star Trek Ident, only with the Titan.
Oh, I think the shrike is in a shot in one of those things too.
I can't hear it, but I can hear it.
Yeah.
So good.
Do I do that every time?
I think I probably do.
Okay, so we get it previously on?
He's Amanda...
Fabulous.
If you're going to bring the changelings back, all right, you need some fabulous British actress.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But she's 2nd generation Star Trek villain, I mean, she's tremendous.
She's really great.
I mean, we always love salome gens, but come on, Amanda Plummer.
I mean, that's passing the torch in a great way.
And here we have little, um, little Lord Fauntleroy, whatever his name is from little Henry from the, um, from the Voyager hollow novel, Janeway's hollow novel.
It's sort of like, as the changelink effect happens.
It sort of looks like they're burn victims, doesn't it?
Yeah, but also, I think the change things look so much like raw chicken is so gross.
So gross, isn't it?
Yeah.
Oh, bless.
What do they look like back in the day?
A bad CGI river.
Yeah, yeah, pretty rough.
They were pretty rough.
Ooh, look at that special effect shot.
Yeah, that big portal thing.
And that's mostly what Raffi and Worf have been investigating.
And initially Raffi and then Raffi and Worf.
And it's this episode that it ties into the main plot because we discover that Roe is the person that they've been speaking to.
May I direct uh, everyone listening to uh, their podcast catcher of choice now to have a look at the untitled Star Trek project uh, image that our fabulous Kayla Ciceron did for us.
And please note how Commander Wolf is starting to look very like Nathan.
Don't you think?
He is.
He is.
He's so handsome as a Klingon, the pair of all.
My God.
Actually, I think he looks great, Wolf.
Yeah, he does.
But look at this ship.
Like this ship is so stunningly beautiful.
So this is the Bridge of the Titan.
Everything is dark, like not too dark.
There's heaps of, you know, actual lights in the frame and things.
But just, you know, everyone's lit from below by their panels.
Everyone's see those alcohols. displays then.
It's beautiful.
Yeah.
And the colour scheme?
But there's lights everywhere.
There is lights everywhere, but the walls are black.
And so you get the impression that this is taking place over one night.
That's right.
You could tell me till you're blue in a face about the innovation as to this set.
I'm telling you now, those consoles are full of a quarry, all right?
Still.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, it's rocks will come out.
Why the hell is Czech Crusher murdering everybody like this?
Yes, it's a dream.
Was it a vision?
No, I mean, you can see from the direction and staff.
So this poor person crawling along the floor is a little Ensign Esma, bless her.
Yes, but he knows who she is.
She knows who I know what you really are.
Yeah, but we don't.
Oh, and see, is that Borg shit?
You know, is that the red stuff?
but the Borga green.
So we don't know what it is.
We can't tell.
Turns out it's the Borg.
Well, of course.
Inevitably.
We haven't done them enough yet, if I'm honest, you know?
So they feature enormously in all 3 seasons of Star Trek Picard, and you have to kind of say, well, you know, okay.
They didn't feature that much in DNG, but they are TNG's baby.
I think I would have preferred you, though, had they just run with the changelings.
Like, I know they, the changes were well explored in D Space 9.
But I don't know.
There's more leverage, I think.
And it's interesting, the sort of revenge plot, isn't it, on the back of the war.
But it's the Borg and the changelings teaming up.
Yeah, I know. very implausible.
It's like some dreadful comic, isn't it?
Yeah, it's like a Batman sequel or something.
The worst kind of fan way.
I'll tell you what, we'll throw it in some bro as well.
Maybe Shelby as well.
Yeah.
I love this ship.
Doesn't it look beautiful again?
We talked last time about how well the Defiant is lit.
You know, how there are shadows across the defiant as it turns around and now here where we don't have to worry about a physical model.
It just looks incredible, I think.
I will never, ever criticise what Joe Ryan did on Star Trek Voyager.
I think she's absolutely one of their assets, but giving her the chance to emote.
It was such a great move.
Yeah, she's great in this.
Somehow she's more beautiful than she was 20 years ago.
Well, she got like the picture of Dorian Gray or something like that.
Yeah, I mean, she looks I think she looks like an older woman and but she just looks like a beautiful older woman, you know, like a, you know, I think she's terrific.
You know, so Jack Crusher.
Um, he he, the actor was in Downton Abbey, wasn't he?
Oh, okay.
Great role in Downton Abbey.
He did a couple of series of that.
So to watch him go from that sort of historical British drama to this in space.
American science fiction show.
It's a hell of a I think he's a good actor actually.
I think it was a great choice putting Beverly's son in this season.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I think it was too.
And again, it gave them, it gave her a pass that we didn't know about.
I love him reinstating her by igniting her, you know?
Just a little tap on both shoulders.
Yeah, and then because of the harrowing a deal, we just did.
I am going to leave you 3 together so that you can get your bullshit story straight, which is so great.
Look at the pair of them.
They're so stiff next to him.
He just sort of sorted out the room.
Right, well, I better go and greet them then, you know.
Oh, here we go.
Here's gates.
These gates, bless her.
I hope she's done some good dancing in between then and now.
Why do you think she doesn't have red hair?
Why do you think they let, like, she doesn't die?
She didn't want to?
Yeah. don't know.
Was he died before?
Was it a wig?
No, it was well, it was a wig.
I think a band died as well.
I don't know.
I mean, they wanted, you know.
Series one hair.
I think that was her real hair, wasn't it?
Right.
I don't know.
But yeah, yeah.
No, I mean, I love the gray coming through.
Oh, I don't.
It's very striking.
But then she had that in all good things, didn't she?
But she also, no, she did have a bit of a gray streak, but she still had the red hair and all good things.
And when she turns up, remember, we did the end of Star Trek.
Prodigy, didn't we?
Or did we?
I've certainly watched it recently.
I think we did do the end of it.
And she's in it, remember?
And Wesley gets introduced to Baby Jack Crusher. and she already has darker hair in that.
I would have liked actually a bit more Wesley in this, you know, and the 2 brothers together.
That would have been quite fun.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I bet Will would have been up for it.
Yeah, they do meet though.
Canonically, they do need a B end of prodigy, which is kind of sweet.
But no, but it would be great to see Picard having to handle Wesley and Jack.
I mean, I believe it as well.
Like visually, I believe they are father and son.
But this scene too, I think this is the scene that I was referring to before, where there is this awkwardness where he just holds out a little bit of hope, that, um, and then he turns around and he actually realises he has nothing to say.
He can't, you know, he can't persuade him.
He's not going to be able to persuade him.
Starfleet's not for him.
And we did see that flashback at the earlier, remember, in at the end of the previous episode where he was in the background of the bar, you know, and Picard was talking about how Starfleet was his only family.
Now, this was this was where I was going, why are we doing this?
Is this what this episode is about?
And I know there is a whole subplot in this episode, and there was one rug pool, I'll be honest, that I thought was hilarious.
Um, but a lot of it does just feel like running on the spot.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And they they made the decision to bring Wharf in from the outside that he's not hanging out with them.
And in fact, the whole gang has to kind of get together, which didn't happen in any of the previous films.
That's a good movie, isn't it, though, I think?
They've all gone off and done their own things and now, you know, slowly but surely.
That means throughout the season, there's another punch the air moment every couple of episodes.
Yeah, that's right.
We still haven't seen Geordie or Deanna.
How does Marina turn up?
Can I ask?
Oh, I can't remember, but I just remember that she, there's been a Changeling Riker.
Uh, uh, and she realises that he wasn't real.
Oh, because he was great in bed. isn't that it?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
There's some light about him being great in bed and about Riker who is so cool that he just thinks that's hilarious.
I should have known you've lasted at least 20 minutes.
I want her to come in though and be like, you know, I sense great discontent or something like that.
If we're going to do TNG all over again.
Come on.
She does actually come back and help Jack with the visions of the door.
I think she helps to remember that.
Was it her usual insipid psychobabble or is it new Kurtzman Trek psychology?
Both, I think.
Probably.
Good, good.
I really like Raffi.
I don't understand why they keep jumping down into this sort of angsty drug riddle.
Yeah, I was disappointed in it. at the beginning.
Yeah, I was disappointed at the beginning because there's, isn't there a scene?
There must be a scene in the series.
Where is it?
Is it series one?
There's a scene where she meets her son and he doesn't want anything to do with her and she has a he has a wife or something and they're going to have a kid.
And they get mentioned in this episode.
Um, but here, like, it's as if she's, you know, still drug addicted.
And the 1st time we saw her, she was just in the desert in an RV smoking weed.
Do you know what I mean?
She wasn't a drug addict.
She had just retired and she was cool and stuff.
But this was a little bit more tragic.
That scene where she was in that facility.
Sorry, it was happening with her family.
It was all very angsty.
And yeah, when she gets to do fun things with 7 or 9 in series two, They go around in the cars and having speed chases and try to get into places.
It's robbing people.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And snogging, of course, as well.
Yeah, yeah, very hot.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But, like, I'm glad that we still have her.
I'm glad that, you know, of the original cast.
We still have her and seven.
I would have kept real.
Yeah, I love it.
You know, actually, you just missed.
So there was a list of people, Starfleet intelligence records, and we're looking up this guy, Krin, who they're just going to go and fight.
He's related to the guy, the Ferengi whose head they cut off in episode one or 2 or whatever.
But Maud of Luria was listed as one of the people on that on the list of names there.
We salute you more.
Yeah.
A little touch to you.
Although we have seen a few of Morn's race, haven't we, in Discovery and things like that?
Well, they wasn't he running over a battlefield at one point?
So in series 3, episode one, I think we get to see them or yeah, series 3, episode one.
And makeup's still quite similar, isn't it?
I mean you can't really change that, can you?
No, and they're allurians in prodigy as well, I think.
I think there might be Allurian Cadan.
This move here of having, obviously, it's an interior exterior set, but having all the snow.
So it's really atmospheric is fabulous.
In fact, it does remind me a little bit of broken bow.
Do you remember?
when they had the interior exterior there and they brought in the snow to.
But here we could do snow a bit better now.
It's sort of wafts now rather than sort of spewing out of the snow machine like we did back then.
It looks really good.
I mean, I think that it does look really good.
We perhaps see a little bit too much of the set sometimes.
Like the long shots are a bit, you know.
No, because we're trying to make it feel like TNG, aren't we?
So we've got to see our art, for sure, always.
Oh, here we go.
Roe has arrived.
Yep.
So this is the USS Intrepid, and it looks like, look at those 2 ships.
Like just that shot with those 2 ships.
How the ship sort of zooms in, all of a sudden, and then the camera slowly pulls away.
Yeah, it's beautiful.
Dynamic and stylish.
Yep, and the lighting and the fact that there's stars and lens flares.
Just in case we weren't sure they were having a face-off.
Yeah, yeah.
It looks so good.
It does a complete 180.
So we can see them facing each other.
Yeah, it's just terrific.
Oh, sure, you are about to vanish for the rest of the episode and that makes me sad.
Yeah, he's really good.
He's got lovely eyes.
He's great.
I love There's a Vulcan on board the ship.
I think she's half Falcon and half Delton.
She's a really striking looking Vulcan with a shaved head and she's not in it.
She doesn't last the whole season.
I think she gets killed at some point.
But she's really terrific.
Just that exchange there. can I ask you one more favour?
She just looks up at him and goes, you better do it while you can.
She wouldn't have had a line like that back in Voyager, was she?
She would have said something like, this is not the optimal time, Captain Jane Ware or something like that.
Look a short list.
No, he's humming, just to annoy them.
With this.
We've saved the galaxy a few times.
You know, yeah, we're good guys.
And then he goes back and goes...
Insurrection, generations and all good things.
I wish they'd mentioned justice, please.
Do you remember when you pissed off the Edo God by beaming out Wesley Crusher?
Oh my god.
He is so wonderful.
Look at the 2 of them either side of him.
I mean, it's just bug up their butt as they've ever looked.
Yeah, yeah.
He's absolutely winning.
But they lie in that final line where he just goes, ah, those were the taste.
Those days when we're endangering the universe.
Isn't this sad?
Can I just say this beautiful corridor, Sam?
Oh, and he's the shell four.
We can only say it in a Star Trek podcast.
This beautiful corridor set.
Oh, look at her.
Oh she's magnificent.
No, she's done Battle Styles to Galactica now, so we've seen her as a total cunt, you know?
Yeah, she's awesome in that.
Just tremendous.
Terrifying.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, really scary.
Do you remember the camera zooming around at the end of the episode?
The cliffhanger where they're about to fire on each other and she ain't backing down.
She went to watch that show again. magnificently in that, she was. so good.
I could, I could see why, baby, why, she did a few episodes of TNG.
Yeah, my talents aren't being used to that for this extent, yeah.
Yeah, it's really strong.
How wonderful because I don't think she needs this now.
So I think she's agreed to come and do this as a okay, let's polish this off.
Yeah.
And I think it's really good because, I mean, this is, you know, we've had the 1st plot and we've had our 1st encounter with the Shrike and with Vatic and so on and we've won and we gave birth to a whole bunch of squid.
You know?
And then that's very TNG as well, you know.
Yeah.
Well, yeah, it's in Canada.
Sometimes jellyfish, sometimes...
And so and so now we've got to send them off in another direction and in order to motivate that.
You've got, you've got her and it's her death and her closer relationship with Picard.
It's impossible to imagine anyone being a better choice.
I love this scene.
So, Sydney is here looking at the dead changeling Sydney and...
Can you verify that's not you and she vomits and it falls over?
Beverly says for the record, we'll say that was yes.
I think this is the moment where Beverly looks straight out the screen and warns us all that there's a changeling infiltrator on the ship.
Keep an eye on her, all right?
She goes, it could be anywhere or anyone.
Perfect.
Thanks, Beverly.
Thank you.
We weren't paying attention in DS9, you know.
What, vacantly?
Do you know what killed me as well?
You know, in all of this sort of TNG loving that we're doing all 90s trek loving.
You know, the officer coming on the ship and saying, there is a conspiracy at the heart of Starfleet.
Well we did that a few times in TNG, didn't we?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And then when they go, yeah, there's changeling infiltrators in Starfleet headquarters.
I was like, we've done that 2 par in DS9.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
And what I like is that I do it from within the ship.
So we don't see earth, we don't go to earth to deal with it.
We're still basically a show on a big federation starship.
They can't afford Earth and your beautiful corridor, all right?
No, that's probably true.
I think that's it.
Yeah, yeah.
But I wish at that point, I was thinking there are no new ideas here.
Like, we are literally cherry.
I think lower decks gets away with it because it's a comedy. you know?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But then even there, I think there was quite a bit of innovation at times.
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
And they did do new things and they made fun of stuff.
But I think, you know, like, I think here, this is, like, this is new in the sense, not that, you know, the idea of changeling infiltrators is new, because anytime you get changed, things, they're going to be infiltrators, like, whatever, and, you know, let's play our greatest hits for our last thing with Picard in it.
But just how it's done.
You know, again, like I've said before, part of the executed.
Yeah, part of the joy of this is seeing this done with good lighting.
It's like deep space night only with good lighting.
Well, yeah, but that was Deep Spaceline with great Deep Space 9 characters. brilliant Deep Space 9 villains, you know?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, we have Amanda Plummer, and we have Roy Lauren.
We're doing okay, I think, here.
Well, yeah, but I mean, that this villain towards the end of the episode, this Vulcan that comes in.
Yeah, Vulcan gangster for some reason.
He tries to find a logical reason as to why he's a gangster, but I'm not sure I was sold.
I kind of like that.
I did think that was kind of funny.
Oh, watch these scenes say sizzle.
Yeah, it reminds me of.
It reminds me of those scenes between Cisco and Picard and Emissary, you know, two. people that knew each other and then last time they met, it was a very dramatic moment for them both.
And Eddington and Cisco, I think he made a comparison before as well.
You know, literally someone who defected to the mechanic.
Yeah, and she does have lines that are very Eddington.
Is it in this?
No, it's in the bar, isn't it?
So I'll wait till we get there.
See, we're doing, we cut ourselves, like, way of warrior to proof, we're not changelings.
I know, I know, but it is all stuff.
All I'm saying is all stuff we've seen before.
But, but the thing is that we've learned already that that's not going to work, that Beverly has discovered that they could pass the blood test and then we see the blood test being conducted.
Well, we learned that.
And G-face Stone.
I was a really smart ship shifter a really good one.
Yeah, but we're not going to remember every detail of...
We are going to remember that.
And also, I think, and it's kind of interesting, is that there's kind of this sense in which what happened with the changelings has changed security forever.
And we're releasing this episode on the 25th anniversary of 9-11.
And think about the way going through an airport, you know, or just American politics generally has changed as a result of that.
And so we're still doing the blood thing, even, you know, we're still doing that blood thing even now, 30 years after the Dominion War or whatever.
Can I ask you, is it your occasional lover, the ball queen that's communicating with Jack Rusher right now?
No, I don't think so.
She's going, connect me, Jack, connect me.
Who's talking to him then?
I can't remember.
Sounds like Beverly.
I thought it might be Vatic.
I can't even tell.
I can't remember.
Well, because it's the Borg, though.
Given the visions, right?
Not the changelings.
No.
No.
Who plays the ball queen at the end?
I can't remember.
Is it Susanna Thompson?
Is she back?
No, it's not Susanna Thompson.
Why is she still acting?
She does doctor audio.
She was the she was like the terrible Borg queen, though.
The wet fish one.
Yeah.
Timu ball queen.
Oh, harsh team.
Did they get?
Did they get...
Do they get, do they get Alice Craig back?
Oh, they probably should.
Yeah.
I think they probably do.
You should't remember.
I can't remember.
Jack, you know, you are pretty, but we've just had Roe Lara back.
Can we please focus on her for a bit?
Yeah, so this Jack thing we're just sort of setting up the new changeling plot, which is also why Roe is here as well, I guess.
And we remember roping these guys in.
Is this the fight scene now?
Well, they had the big fights. does his very melodramatic, Oh no, I've died.
Do you know, I didn't know because this is the show that brings back legacy characters and kills them.
And I thought this did a pretty good job of selling it.
They were going to do it, but for a second, I just thought, wow, are they really going through with this?
That's such a bad idea.
I choose Michael.
They choose gates.
I'll never stop saying it.
Poor old goats.
Well, that guy's got a look.
I see what you mean about the set there. yeah you could see quite a lot of it.
Yeah, I think you see too much of it.
Although, look, they've got sort of sort of club lighting going on here.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Oh, I think that that's a thing.
I think that they try and make it look like a contemporary nightclub whenever it's kind of like, you know, I mean, we were doing that in as far back as tapestry, I think.
And this is another pretty long scene.
So we've sort of introduced Rowan Picard, and then we wait about 10 minutes.
Yeah, for this to happen.
Get any more scenes with them.
But I suppose that is, like, I think you can level the same criticism at the final 10 episodes of DS9 where you'll have 4 or 5 plots running along in an episode and you do, if you've got a favourite plot, well, I'm sorry, you've got to wait for the other 4 to go on before you get back to your one.
But I think that's the unique thing about this episode.
So I just feel like it needs more focus.
Yeah.
I just wonder why they're doing this.
Like, I, obviously, they need to give Raffi and and um, Worf something to do, and we want to hold off introducing everyone at the same time.
Oh, we never saw Beverly doing this back in the day, did we?
With loads of bloody organs.
Oh, look at that.
Oh, it's grim, isn't it?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
There, it literally looks like shop liver.
Yeah, definitely.
Chop liver.
Don't do it.
No, no, I...
It's a British staple with loads of gravy.
I only eat skeletal muscle.
Is that right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
No wonder we're so miserable over it.
Never onions.
There you go.
There's a line.
We won't never know.
She looks very slack jawed there, though, doesn't she?
Oh, I missed it.
You missed it.
Yeah, absolutely missed it.
Is that where she looks out the camera, that bit.
But she looks very kind of open-mouthed, you know, like, whereas, whereas poor old Ensign Rowe is much, much fiercer and angrier, isn't she?
I think Marino would have gone for it more, that lion, you know.
She would have given her some melodrama, some willing.
Marina's fun, I think, when she finally turns up in this.
I love the fact as well that I'm not sure the dialogue is saying it, but I think Patrick Stewart's saying it as in you betrayed me.
I gave you a chance and you betrayed me.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
We were talking about with Eddington last week, wasn't it?
That was that was it.
And that's why she broke his heart because she betrayed him and he broke her heart because she didn't he didn't trust her to make the right decision.
How like the next generation to present a twist like that in its penultimate episode and then not have to deal with the concept.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, I mean, that was always going to be her last episode.
That was really her gone.
You could have been around.
No fucking clue this was coming 30 years later.
No, we didn't.
No idea. grief.
I mean, if you would ever have told me that the whole TNG crew would be back on that hideous set by the end of this, making fun of the carpet.
I can't remember.
Do they do that shot from the viewscreen of them all in it?
Oh, yeah, in their position.
I think they do.
But it's just the moment where Patrick Stewart bursts out laughing at his own line about the carpet.
You know, like, um, that that's the thing that he missed.
And, you know, we've just been on board this glossy ship with all of its reflective surfaces and we're back to the enterprise and its carpet.
I love this.
This is a great backstory.
Her saying, you know, I was arrested.
I was court-martialled.
I went to prison, but because of my expertise with terrorist groups.
I was seconded into Starfleet intelligence.
And this is that sort of mucky federation that I absolutely loved in DS9.
You know, they're willing to work with ex-terrorists in order to get the advantage.
And it's credible as well.
Like, it works, that actually works, and, you know, this wasn't her trajectory when she left, she was off to join the McKeon was never going to be part of Starfleet again, and you need to get her back in Starfleet for her to be, you know, what if it had been Admiral Nacheev who come back?
I mean, I would have been there for it.
I would have been there for that. would have been pretty awesome.
Poor old Picard, he would have been so cowed, wouldn't he?
No, anyone but Admiral Macheus.
And then she crashes her shuttle into the into the Nasselle.
She might have been my favourite recurring character on TNG.
How she feiced because nuts every time she turned up. was just great.
Let's step into the holodeck.
But look at these scenes as shock.
Amazing.
I mean, they were always great on TNG these days, yeah.
Right back as far as Enson Rowe.
And they do have a wonderful scene in pre-enter structure.
Remember, where they're talking about intelligence, but they've got to pretend to be lovers.
Stroking each other's hair and snogging.
Wow.
Patrick went beautiful.
Can you get her back?
I've got fond memories of Michelle Forbes.
I love this bar.
Look at the lighting on the bar.
It's wonderful.
He turns the holiday safeties off.
There's a button.
It's just like, this is how 10 forward should have looked.
That's exactly what I thought.
It should have looked like this.
And in fact, I think that that swirly thing behind the bar is a reference to that sort of brown sort of swirly thing behind the bar in 10 forward.
And it's sort of, it is sort of how quarks works, isn't it?
Because, you know, you have all the coloured drinks behind the thing at quarks all the way up and that.
But it's just the kind of depth of field, you know, just the way it's shot, the way it shot like an iron.
It's just practical lighting everywhere.
So every shore. is so interesting.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
I think that's true, but I also think that, you know, there's there's just sort of more real detail as well.
Oh, yeah, see, I didn't like this line either, where he said about, oh, you've taken your earring off.
Have you betrayed another institution as well?
And I was like, come on now, don't come after a religion.
Poor show, Picard.
But he's cross.
You say ugly things when you cross.
Yeah, I mean, I think that the thing was, because we get the point where he realised that she didn't have to wear the earring because of her religion.
She bore it to piss him off, you know, essentially, as a way of being insubordinate.
Um, And and she's right about him, isn't she?
What, saying that it was conditional, their relationship?
No, no, I don't think that's it at all.
I don't think that that, although, you know, she's right to say that.
You know, if he rejects her, he's angry at her for choosing a different path.
You broke my heart and you broke mine.
It's so good in different ways.
So I was like, no, you're misremembering all of this.
And then it got to that line.
I was like, oh, yeah, no, that works.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That really properly works.
And and then suddenly he kind of realises that there's been 30 years where he's been angry at her and that's terrible.
You know, like, like, and this too, the fact that they can inflict this pain on each other.
Look at her, she's tearing up.
It's Ensign Rowe.
You know, um, uh, You know, they, they know they must be real.
They have to be real.
I was good, oh, such a roller coaster.
So I was annoyed that they were sort of misremembering row.
I love the scene about the broken hearts.
Then I was annoyed again about infiltrators in Starfleet.
I was like, bloody hell, this episode is up and down for me.
But you know, I just think this is probably the best a character back from the past in terms of performances that you get this season.
Yeah, I think so.
Because, you know, you know the chemistry between the TNG crew is going to be great.
They're all going to come together and we're all going to...
It's going to be fun flies in our stomach.
Exactly.
But with Rowe, with Michelle Fort, you just don't know because of how it left off. you're like, how's this going to go down?
Hence, Sneed of Ferengi?
What's that?
Oh, Sneed was the guy at the very beginning in the early episode, and remember that they're investigating that the portal weapon that we saw, that incredible special effect.
So again, there's a large terrorist attack, a large public terrorist attack, and they've stolen a portal weapon from the Daystrom Institute or whatever, the Daystrom Station or something.
It's not quite the same as the one on Earth with all the megalomaniacal computers in it.
It's another one.
So Sneed Sneed is a criminal.
It sounds like a Dickens character.
They kill him.
Yeah, he does, doesn't he?
They kill him in the in the in the early episode.
Every time we mention the Daystrom intro.
I get absolute hives coming out in night.
It just sounds like the most boring place.
Remember when Varsh says they want to send beach to the Daystrom Institute?
I don't want to go there, Q. Take me out to the universe again.
Yeah, like, this isn't a bad performance from this fella playing. it does feel like we're marking time.
I wonder why we're doing it.
No.
Yeah.
You know.
Imagine Camp Jeffrey Coombs coming in and doing all this.
Yeah.
Well, that's the one thing that they avoid.
With the dominion that we don't see the, you know, we have the changings, but we don't have anything else.
And we, you know, we have, we have, you know, Vatic, I guess, who is pretty great, because they are given Jeffrey Coombs work elsewhere.
It comes from Trek.
I'll give him a pass.
But Hadway Yun turned up at the end of an episode.
I mean, I would have been punching the.
I mean, weighing is very definitely deep space 9 whereas the idea of the changelings is a little bit kind of, you know, more universal.
But like, do you remember what we did to change your face of evil?
And, you know, from scene to scene, it was outrageously camp and then madly melodramatic.
And then you had like domestic scenes between Cisco and Cassidy and this is all so naturalistic in comparison.
I kind of miss the high drama of it.
So, I mean, what Star Trek's doing at this and think about what's going on at this point.
Strange New Worlds has started, lower decks and prodigy are both on.
Discovery is still happening.
There is so much Star Trek doing so many different things that each Star Trek can afford to be itself because somewhere else there's a version of Star Trek that's doing something different.
I think my point there is, though, is that this is more at risk of being boring, because it is kind of, yeah, yeah, very one note in terms of how it's delivered.
Whereas the DSI, it could go over a cliff.
But for me, it was entertaining.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean, here, you know, we do, we do have Shaw, who is a, who is a funny character, he's not a comedy character exactly, but he is funny and he punctures the other characters.
You know, we eventually have lots of fun stuff about them meeting up.
Is there a comedy this year?
In this show.
In this season?
No, no, no.
There's no out now, comedy episodes.
Yeah, yeah.
Come on.
There should always be one.
No, we're so serialised this season though, isn't it?
As well as you put it in.
It's one story.
I mean, it's one story.
There are funny bits and there's warm moments and stuff.
It's not all grim.
It's not all like this.
Anyway, but we love the comedies, though, don't we?
Yeah.
I mean, even with war, we generally don't with the TNG crew.
I know.
But when Worf, like when Worf gets up later and says, you know, I am losing a lot of blood and stuff like that.
It's a great moment, buddy.
No, it's because why I laughed so much was, you know, I knew he wasn't dead, but I was like, he hammed up his death so much.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Oh, please leave me, you know.
If you're a better actor than I thought you were.
That was a stunning shot of the 2 of them at the top with the window behind them. beautiful.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, so this is the bulk of art.
So these scenes in the bar, these are the bulk of our rope, Picard scenes, aren't they?
Yeah.
And I mean, it is exposition.
This is her explaining the problem, the problem that we've got to work on for the rest of the season.
And, you know, Frontier day.
This is the 1st we, it's not our 1st mention of frontier day because we already know that the captain's making a speech at Frontier day.
Um, and that's going to be the big venue for it.
That's the end.
Is that where we had, hey, tools, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
I can't remember.
I don't really remember much about the last couple of episodes.
I was just getting more annoyed, so maybe my brain was switching off.
I think what happens is the young people who've all been through the transporter have had some genetic something happen to them.
And so they get all activated at some point.
And so all of the young people, uh, taken over by the, um, by the Dominion slash Borg.
Uh, and that's why all the these old relics have been kind of safe.
You're doing it again, all right?
The Dominion slash Borg.
You sure Peter David was a riotness?
But, yeah, I mean, and I will say I was really invested in the 1st half of the season.
Like, I remember watching the, because I watched it late. once it was all out and I watched the 1st 5 almost back to back and all of this stuff on this shit.
I mean, I was so invested.
So it was really only when the ball came in.
I was like, oh, okay.
Yeah, we doing that. that's inevitable.
I think I think the 1st half of the season is extremely strong, though.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, I did like the, the, the big finale thing reads a little bit more like the, uh, the actual series one finale of prodigy, where you've got, do you remember series one finale of prodigy, where all the the starships are firing on one another, you know, the the constructors taken over all the federation ships and they're all firing on one another, and we're all just standing there watching that happen.
And I think that the way the sentence is very similar to that.
I just remember the whole premise of the show turning on its head at the end of series one and going, well, how can we have the same show now?
They're not even lost in space?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So good.
Oh, Voyager, take note, all right?
You can do it, right?
Okay.
Yo, these scenes are going on forever now, aren't they?
With this film.
Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Oh, oh.
Here we go.
Here we go, here we go.
Lights go out.
Male, pro wharf.
No, you just...
There you go.
Only Worf could deliver a line like that.
I have lost a considerable amount of blood. really funny, isn't it?
That's a great lie.
It's not quite...
Sir, I am not a merry man, but you know...
He is the ultimate straight man, isn't he?
But again, yes, I am in desperate need of medical attention.
It is nice to have a laugh, actually.
I'll just kill him already.
I don't think it's going be a big part of the season.
Ooh, look at that.
Is that the Daystream Institute?
The, the, where?
Days from station.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So the Daystream Institute remembers on Earth, we actually see it in lower decks because that's where Agamus is kept at the end of the last lower decks that we did.
Oh, Akamus.
Yeah.
And we did actually see that in Star Trek Picard, because I think Alison Peele's character was working there in series one.
Couldn't Agamus have turned up in Picard. done a bit of one episode, villain.
He could have floated like nomads, you know?
Yeah, yeah, on a string.
They could have had a string.
I just want more Jeffrey Combs.
And so all of this stuff too.
We've got a skeleton crew.
You know, she's all set it up for the rest of the season, so that's her job here, is to change the direction of the show. to turn it into now we have to put a stop to whatever's going to happen on Frontier Day.
I think maybe, maybe my reaction to her, because I wasn't really moved by her death.
And, and, you know, Kursman Trek can make me feel far more than all the other tricks.
And I was like, well, why aren't I why isn't this really poignant for me?
And I think it's because I've just seen far too many.
No, no, no.
I'll sacrifice myself.
Off you go, moments.
It's not quite that because I don't think she was expecting it.
She is, yeah, this.
Oh, look.
Oh, so you're moved.
I am, I'm a bit moved here by Michelle's performance and her blinking back tears and stuff.
And then she wipes them away and then she goes off and she's just who she is, but it's that thing, you know, we've, we've, um, uh, we lost all of this time and I spent all this time thinking this.
And you've got him now reflecting on that loss as well.
You know, had Michelle Forbes made a different kind of a decision about Deep Space 9, we never probably would have had this episode, would we?
No.
Yeah.
We wouldn't have had Dana though.
I'm not sorry. that things turned out in the way they did.
She might be my favourite regular in the entire franchise.
She is great.
Except that mum hair in emissary, of course.
Yeah, terrible.
I mean, this is so funny.
And it's kind of like, I've commented your ship once to go off after this thing and now he's coming in.
It's like, all right, now we need to just flee with the ship.
Can you do that?
Oh, launch the show, Croft.
It really is TNG. except they look a bit more robust than they used to.
They look like they're made of metal rather than painted balls of balls of word, don't they?
What are you saying?
structures of space back in the day. box of wood indeed.
So this, you know, she wasn't expecting this at all.
She wasn't going to sacrifice her life suddenly, they've just disappeared and left a bomb on board.
Couldn't she have said, couldn't someone have said she's not coming?
Or, you know, look at this.
Look at that, how great that looks with the with the ship, you know, out the front window and that.
The bomber. so good.
Changelings.
Yeah, they just turn into meat.
We just need to let the audience know that they're changing.
So just have them shift just for a second. okay?
Oh, look, it's true TNG now, a huge face on the viewscreen.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Just put Picard in the shot as well, and that's perfect.
Those big screens that they have now.
I'm so glad they went with them.
It's a great thing.
I was thinking about, just those big windows compared to the tiny...
But, you know, what about the defiance tiny television?
It's...
Yeah, that's my computer screen. that's right.
That's why you can't put anyone in front of me, but it's so small.
Yeah, yeah.
That looks great, doesn't it?
You know, that shot with his got his back to us.
He's in silhouette.
She's there talking, and the 2 of them are looking at each other in the phase, and it's being directed here from inside the ship, like the camera's inside her shuttle now.
I'm giving you a fighting chance, Jean-Luc.
I mean, I don't think you did real tonight.
People get a chance to fire off a few lines of dialogue like this.
They sacrifice themselves.
But, you know, we we do like the melodrama of it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, there's one shot coming up, which I just think is absolutely beautiful, which is the shot that we yeah, yeah.
And so she explodes, you know, like that, she explodes the nacelles so that they can't chase, and he looks away, he can't bear to even look at it, and then there's the shot of him where half of the screen, half of our screen is his face in profile with his hand to his head, as we can see.
He said it was like emissary.
Cisco, do you remember when the ball cube explodes?
It's the same show.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's stunning.
It's such a good shot.
It is in those moments where, you know, this is why we've gone back to Patrick Stewart.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean, there is definitely, you said it earlier.
I did hear it.
I didn't want to acknowledge it.
You know, a bunch of geriatrics saving the universe, but there are times in Picard where I'm like, he can barely get the lines out anymore, but there are other times where...
Oh, yeah, he's magnificent.
I don't think he plays into his frailty too.
I don't think he tries to conceal it I don't think he's trying to play it like a younger man or being anything other than someone in their late 80s and I think he's really good.
That's how flame. looks great.
That's amazing.
Just how black the ship is because it's lit from behind and how ominous it looks.
Like it looks frightening. just a Starfleet ship.
They were all, you know, evenly lit back in Star Trek, the next generation.
These are the lines we want.
If we don't run, then row dies for nothing.
Yeah, yeah.
This is great.
At least trust your own eyes.
Liam.
Liam.
For fuck's sake, he goes, oh, get us out of here. just hates that they're right.
I just want him in everything.
He's so great.
What was Beverly doing then with those petri dishes?
I mean, what are you doing, Beverly?
doing more shit with changeling DNA.
I was doing medical things when I had a realisation, Jack.
And so this is the killing thing, isn't it?
That's right And then more change things appear and he just kills them all.
And that's what we've been leaning towards.
The connection between the red door, the Borg and the founders then.
I can't remember.
Oh okay.
Something about it means he knows that they're changelings.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's it.
And so he has he been engineered to kill, change things.
Um, And remember that that he gets asked later.
Yeah, you see, and I think that the, like those tendrils say either Borg or Changeling, don't they?
What about those?
Like petals?
what are they saying I don't know.
We wanted a pretty visual for this thing.
A bit like American beauty.
Yeah, yeah, it is, it is great.
I mean, Nathan, if you just opened that door, he could have saved us about 3 episodes.
What's behind that, then?
Five episodes to go. can't even remember.
Is it a ball Q beyond that door?
I bet it is.
Doesn't this look great?
Yeah.
Oh my god, do you know what that shot is?
It's the Matara nebula show.
Yeah, yeah, that's what I was thinking as well.
Exactly.
I'm sorry.
I just...
So much.
Yeah, that's great too, where it warps out before the torpedoes here.
I am utterly bewitched by Shaw's eyes.
The man has incredible eyes.
He's so gray.
He, again, was someone who loved being in this.
He just loved this, you know.
When's the point where Picard and Riker off their row then?
Has that already happened?
No, that happened, actually, in the last episode.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Because I think it, you know, Picard does something that's going to destroy the ship. and they're, I remember it's TNG, we're copying it, right?
It lasts longer than the episode.
No.
She gave me this before she, well, sacrificed myself.
Well, because remember Riker didn't like her as well, was really hostile to her too?
He was sort of unpleasant, wasn't he?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And he's normally so genius. sort of saying, you know, give her a chance.
I'll be a prick.
Yeah, I'm paraphrasing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh, you know what?
Every time I see these these view screens in the air like this, I think of you.
You love them, don't you?
The panels that they touch in the air.
It's so great.
It's so good.
I'm so old.
I couldn't even find a description from that then, did you know?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's just like, it's like, you know, your Apple Vision Pro. There's all these sort of windows all over the real world.
But there is still time for the alcohols as well.
I'm pleased to say.
Yeah, but these are all El Car style too, aren't they?
The font's different, but all of those sort of borders.
Finally.
You're looking old, Mr. Worf.
Actually, I think he looks kind of magnificent.
He looks great.
He looks so good.
Have you noticed Michael Dawn's doing a podcast now as well?
They're all up to it.
Oh, is he?
On Instagram, there was Kareem DNA from Starfleet Academy giving him a big hug and saying, Michael Dawn's my biological father.
Do you know, the only one who actually sort of do in regular acting, weirdly enough, is Marina.
She just scored a great role, a regular role in a TV show.
Oh wow, good for her.
She ain't got time for podcasting.
She leaves that okay. that's right.
Yeah, see this?
Like he shot them all.
How did you know they were changing things?
Oh, I didn't.
Whoops.
Don't you think that?
This looks like the Voyager sick thing.
I did, I was thinking that quite a lot.
But with blue lights instead of yellow.
Okay, it's our massive loving, isn't it?
Oh, yeah, you sound massive, loving.
Well, but 90s strike, but I think the design is more beautiful.
You know, we're sometime later than 90s trek.
Um, you know, it's 20, 30 years later and uh, everything looks more flash and more beautiful.
Frankly, if those Star Trek fans that don't like Spock sex comedies, um, didn't like this season, they would have been doing something extremely wrong indeed.
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think people did like it.
I think people kind of wanted it.
I think the original plan, didn't we say that they wanted to do 5 years, but Stuart could only do 3 because he was sort of getting on a bit.
It was a bit very nice.
Oh yeah, absolutely.
And it's kind of like, well, whatever Patrick Stewart's plans are, we're just going to go along with that.
I mean, I think they probably had another spinoff in mind and then they got told that Patrick would do it and so they said, yes, we'll do whatever then.
You know, his line in his autobiography, where he says, I was wrong to say I didn't want all the TNG career in, and I only wanted original characters coming in.
He's wrong.
Like, in terms of popularity, yeah, maybe he's right.
In terms of creativity.
That was a bad call.
Yeah, I'm glad that we, that, you know, like we did see the occasional person, it was clearly said in that world, um, but Girati?
Yeah, wonderful.
Yeah, yeah, I won't ever stop getting on about it.
In any accent, he wants to put on.
Yeah, yeah.
Who else am I forgetting?
Is there anyone else?
Oh, I mean Raffi.
Um, uh, um, data store.
Oh, no.
You're the pretty boy.
The Australian guy.
Oh, yeah, little Elanor.
Yeah.
Oh, it did. did it end?
With him admitting that he didn't know that they were changelings and stuff, basically.
So we end with him.
And I think we ended the previous episode with him.
I think the red door might have been how we ended the previous episode, so we are selling that.
So this had 3 jobs.
The main job is to just launch us into the next plot to get the show up after having a climax and a triumph at the end of episode four, which I think it needed.
It can't all be relentlessly grim.
They need a win.
They need an early win.
But obviously, they don't get to bask in it because the next thing comes along.
And, you know, part of that is who Jack is and part of it is obviously the, this, um, this terrible, you know, conspiracy.
I think no win scenario is a much better episode.
I think it's more focussed.
I think it has more memorable moments in it and it has a ton of shaw and that's wonderful.
And a great action set piece, I remember, at the end of it.
This is plate spinning for some of its runtime.
But the best moments here. the row Picard moments.
I mean, how can I object?
Yeah, fine.
Spin your plates if I'm going to get some payoff there.
Yeah, that's right.
This is more of an episode one.
You know, like it is starting a new thing.
And so it doesn't get the full excitement that we got, you know, where it's no win scenario. things can't possibly be worse.
We're all going to die and then something magical happens and they're saved.
I just remember when we were going into the 2nd half of the season.
I was sad that that little run was over because just that shipboard action for a run of episodes.
It just felt so like energy as well.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But it felt like a movie.
It felt like there was a big scale, but that things had changed for all of those characters during that time, that the world was different as well, that something had happened.
And we didn't get that in generations, you know, everyone still had the same job that they'd had way back 10 years ago.
I will still die on the hill, that the very best Picard is the 2 parter at the end of series one.
Because I just had to last with that.
And it really felt like the show was solidifying in a really confident way.
Do you remember those great flowers bursting in space and it was awesome.
Do you remember the Android planet?
I mean it was so descent, wasn't it?
With a bunch.
It was really camp.
It was really very tricky, you know, in a sort of fun camp way.
And the emotional payoff to Picard and Data's relationship was extraordinary.
But I think after that, I think probably this opening run of series 3 might be their best achievement after that.
Yeah.
I mean, I have a big soft spot for series 2.
I like series 2 quite a lot.
We need to explore a bit more.
We've only done a few, haven't we?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, we've done some good ones in series 2, I think, but I did like series 2 quite a lot.
We haven't done the 2nd episode, have we?
Where they go to the alternative Nazi world.
I absolutely do.
The confederation.
I just so happen to have gold to cult skull on the slayer.
All right, it's the end of the episode and it's time for us to work out where we're going next.
This was my choice and inevitably, it's your turn, Joe, to pick something else.
Tell me what we are going to be doing.
Yes, you've achieved the impossible, you know, you've managed to get me excited by statistics, which I thought would be an absolute impossibility.
We looked at the indexes last week and we had a look at um, because it broke it down into not only the shows, but the seasons.
And it gave me lists of, so, you're listening out there, if you want to listen to untitled Star Trek episodes, and you want a whole page of what we covered, check out the index. right?
But there was one season in particular, which we had given relatively little attention to, which I remember.
We need to address.
And I figured, you know, we've just had some next generation with some truly extraordinary lighting.
So probably we should return to a day where, well, they were just all lit from above.
Season 2 of the next generation is where we're going, which, you know, has Dr. Pulaski in it.
That's true.
There's a...
There's no gates.
Come on.
Um, yeah.
What do you reckon about that?
Okay.
So what we have actually done is up the long ladder, which is episode 18 and Manhunt, which is episode 19 bizarrely.
And that's all we've done in season two. 5 points of the franchise.
Yeah, upsetting.
Okay, you ready for this?
Okay.
Bring it on Oh, no.
Up the long ladder.
Oh, well. one of the 2 that we've done.
Okay.
Oh, God, I remember this episode so well. was obsessed with this episode.
It might be this one Oh my god, it's not a squared or whatever it is.
What is that?
Season 2, episode 10.
The dolphin.
It's the one where Wesley Crusher...
Do you remember?
Yeah.
Princess Leia. comes on board.
Yes.
And she dresses up in very, nylon gorilla suits as does her handmaiden.
It's an extraordinary costume, Anya.
I mean, bodyguard.
It's called Anya.
She's this tiny little woman.
Yeah, she's kind of fabulous.
But it does have that scene where, what's it, Riker and Guyan flirt outrageously.
Yeah, yeah.
And she's a kid.
Shut up, kid.
All right.
I'll press it again.
I don't think we can stomach, stomach, Wesley Crusher in love.
Okay.
With a nail um gorilla.
Okay.
Oh, now this is a banger, but I don't want to do it.
Because I want to do something bad.
Is it measure of a man?
No, it's Q Who.
Season 2, episode 16.
Yeah, probably their 1st big win, isn't it?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Maybe you're right.
You know, it's nice to note, you know, back in the day, they were sort of doing crossovers as well, weren't they?
We just had the Dominion and the Borg, and that's Q and the Borg.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
There you go.
They'll team up with anyone.
Okay.
Oh, this is it.
This is the one.
It gives us a chance to talk about lower decks as well.
Season two, episode four, the outrageous O'Connor.
Terry Hatcher's only appearance in Star Trek.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And he said, William Campbell's a very handsome man.
We could at least enjoy it on that level.
I fear it may be sexist in all kinds of ways.
Yeah. and it does have a comedy subplot where data goes to, um, the holiday and learns from a dreadful, sort of Chicago comedian, how to be funny.
No, you're looking really distasteful right now.
No, push it again.
I'm okay to see it.
Okay to say, we do have to do it.
Let's get it over with.
What's a food you really hate?
Because it looks like it's in your mouth, right?
That's right.
It's the tripe and onions actually that you mentioned earlier.
Tripe?
Excuse me, we are that desperate.
I said liver.
Dogsy tripe, all right?
Oh my god.
Oh my god.
Yes, no, we definitely have to do it. outrageous O'Connor.
I feel actually, you could not be onto a metaphor there.
I think this may be the most liver and onions episode of Star Trek that ever to have existed.
The RH is O'Connor. pretty rough.
And they're trying to make him someone.
They're trying to make another Harry Mart. they like a larger than live character.
And he does come back not just in that lower decks episode where I don't know that they get the actor back.
I don't know. that maybe they do.
He doesn't have much of a part in it, but he does play a rather larger role in an episode of Lower Decks, where is he a sex fiend in that as well?
No, but the kids from the proto star meet him and he's, you know, sort of handsome.
Oh, you mean not lower decks?
You mean prodigy?
Prodigy.
Yeah, yeah.
He's briefly in a lowered X episode, but he is in prodigy for an episode or so.
As we've said, time and again.
Trust Kurtzman Trek to remember all of the back alleys of Star Trek, corners of the franchise. right.
You wait. the next the next series will be Star Trek, O'Connor.
Oh my god.
Star Trek, Kivas Fajo.
Oh boy.
Oh Nathan.
Who's been listening to entitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford and Nathan Bottomley, where online at untitled Star Trek Project.com where you can find subscription links and links to our social media accounts.
The podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceran, and the theme was composed by Cameron Lam.
This episode was recorded on the 8th of September 2026 and released on the 11th of September.
We'll see you next time for Star Trek the Next Generation, the outrageous O'Connor.
I think Martok's there, too.
Should we do that?
Yeah, I think so.
Okay.
I wasn't too down on that, was I?
I know you were really positive.
And I think it is really good, but I think you're right.
It is like there are long curs, you know, and it doesn't, you know, like, because, but it does have a big central thing and it does send the show off the season off in a different direction.
And I think that was what it needed to do.
Actually, it is just like the bloody change he makes for you. the triple whammy at the end.
Um, Kai Wynn kills Soulbore.
The Defiant is blown up, and then Demal defects.
It's just like, doesn't it?
And then all of those things kick off in another direction.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Oh, I do love an Hark in Star Trek.
Well, I think I think that probably they're changing that, that, is it 7 episodes of the end?
Uh, 10?
Ten?
Yeah.
Well, this is 10 episodes.
But it is that there's a unity to this, which makes it seem like the film that Star Trek never had.
May I congratulate you as well?
I just don't think you could have found a more smug looking picture of Michael Weddington than the one you bought.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I had to pick, it was like picking to try and pick, because it's the moment, I think, where he realises that he knows what he has to do and that's take me.
You know, like it's that moment.
But there was a sort of sad lip quivering moment and I thought, no, I don't want to do that.
I want to do this one.
I almost died of laughter with your dramatic new adversary, marquee leader of musical theatre gay, Michael.
I mean, yes.
It's true.
It's all true.
Oh, give you what you want.
Okay.
So, like Kenneth Marshall, I looked up and I couldn't find any biographical stuff and he did do musical theatre and, you know, like he probably was gay.
I don't know, but, you know, he's he's still alive.
He's in his 70s, you know, things were different.
It's his life, you know, like he's free to share what he wants.
Um, but I did...
I'm shortly think...
Yeah, well, yeah, I mean, musical theatre, though, probably.
Oh, there.
I mean, I showed you some pictures of him, didn't I?
Oh yeah, he was very pretty.
Very pretty man.
The hair is such, so unfortunate.