For the Uniform

[00:22]

Hey, Joe. Hi.

So, we're back aboard Deep Space 9 this week.

It's season five, episode 13 for the uniform, and it 1st aired on the 3rd of February, 1997.

Now we've done the sequel to this already, Blaze of Glory, which was fabulous.

Rebecca.

Go save yourself.

Oh, thank God, all the jemadar, myself.

Well, isn't there he's not coming?

Where's Michael?

He's not coming.

So that was terribly melodramatic.

And we did spend some time that episode talking about this episode.

So I'm kind of glad that we did it.

I have some weird reservations about it, which I'll get to when we talk about it.

But I had enormous fun.

And I think we were talking off mic just now, and each of us has another Star Trek episode that we want to liken this one too.

[01:23]

Yes, yes.

I want to hear what your one is.

Mine is equinox part two.

Janeway goes on a mad mission to bring down Captain Ransom, but with 0 motivation, 0 cents, and at no point.

Do you consider her actions rational or reasonable?

And Ronald D. Moore was there going, but why is she doing this?

I don't understand.

She doesn't even know this man.

She'd never met him before.

Why is she trying to murder members of his crew in the cargo bait?

And I think this is doing a similar sort of thing, right?

The great revenge tale.

This person has betrayed me and I'm going to go after them.

All systems go.

But within the episode.

It does motivate Cisco.

It does explain how he feels about Eddington.

You know, he's a man like me.

He came into my life.

I got close to him.

I invited him into my home and then he shut all over me.

And understandably, that makes him a bit pissed.

[02:26]

And I just think this is a better version of that story.

So I think this is like the wounded.

And you have Captain Maxwell in his ship going from place to place doing terrible things again to the Cardassians.

And we need to come and talk to him and explain to him that he's doing the wrong thing and that he's misguided, that he's not the hero, that he believes himself to be.

And I think here that this episode works best, in fact, when it doesn't look like Cisco is being motivated by a personal vendetta.

And I think that why it's a bit cloudy is because, of course, the way that he solves this week's space problem is by pretending that he's motivated by a personal vendetta so that he can manipulate Eddington into doing what he wants him to do.

[03:29]

And so there's some great scenes earlier on where he's super angry, but mostly I think he's angry with himself for being fooled.

Oh, you think it's an ego thing?

Well, it's not an ego thing because I think that that makes him look bad as well.

And I think the scenes where he works really well in this episode, there's one hugely hot scene, which we'll get to, where we're in the hollow suite, and he's boxing and he's talking to Dax about how he feels.

And it's a kind of slightly obvious scene because, of course, it's set up in such a way that you can see the anger and you can see the rage because he's doing boxing in the gym.

But when he and Dax get together and work out how to make Eddington surrender, and they do it rationally and they do it quite calmly.

And I think that that's pretty good.

I like the scene with him and Sanders where Sanders is another Starfleet captain who actually gets given the task of hunting down Eddington and he's not a dick about it.

You know, he clearly, and he says this to Dax later.

[04:32]

He's really angry with himself that he got taken off this assignment and got given to someone else, but he's not that.

He doesn't play it like that with Saunders.

Do you know what I mean?

The 2 men understand one another, and he's resigned to the fact that Sanders has been given this job.

And so, like, I thought all of that was really good, but what I thought was really strange, particularly given the sort of thing that you said about Star Trek the Next Generation last week, is that this is very much a space problem procedural.

It is almost exactly like the wounded.

And in fact, they actually lean into it because the ship is damaged in an encounter with Eddington earlier in the episode.

And the result of that is that they have to increase the levels of technobabble to deal with the fact that there's damage being done to the ship.

And I'm not quite sure why they do that, but I think it works really well, and I enjoyed enormous amount, I think.

[05:37]

I can cancel that because I also said about last week's episode was that there was no character work in it at all, which is true.

And in this episode, we are bursting with character in pretty much every scene, even within those techno-apple scenes at times.

Poor old Nog having to relay messages to everybody.

And he's trying to be a waver in Galaxy Quest.

I've got one job to do on this bridge and I've got to do it, but the way he tries to match the tones of everybody as well.

When Cisco's pissed, he's like, edge of room, bridge.

But within the Technobabble stuff, you know me, I just don't give a shit about Technobabble at all.

But when you're doing fun things, like trying to stop the defiant crashing into the upper pylons and things like that, that's really fun.

Like, fight, if they were doing stuff like that last week, I would have, I would have had a great time with it.

But no, they were just towing some garbage scale.

I can't remember.

It's even left my head already.

[06:37]

Yeah, yeah.

But it is kind of funny where I was thinking, thank God, those ships are much more automated than this normally.

So we don't have to hear every detail about every manoeuvring thruster that gets ignited or whatever.

But within that as well.

You get to see them all working together in that sequence, don't you?

Where everyone's doing their beer and to stop them from crashing straight into the bylon and going off.

So it sort of, it feels like a triumphant moment when they just literally get the defiant off away from the station.

It does feel different.

You're right.

It is all tetababble again.

But it's...

I don't know why, but I liked it.

Seeing in with character as well.

So I'll give it a pass.

I mean, I just love I love the character threadness.

I love the fact that they introduced Eddington at the start of series 3, right?

And then just sat on that character for a whole season and he had a couple of appearances in season 3 and then he makes his 1st move against Cisco in the two-parter, the Dyers cast and improbable cause, yeah?

[07:46]

where Starfleet basically say to Eddington, you need to stop him going off to Cardassia and stopping them from destroying the founders.

And so he sabotages the ship.

But at the end of that episode, he sort of says, I'm really sorry I was under orders.

It fine.

But it puts a seed of doubt in your head of like, okay, there's a man with his own motive sometimes.

Then, I don't know if you remember, in the adversary, there's a couple of scenes between Eddington and Cisco where they're talking about command and Eddington is basically saying I really wanted to be in command and I'm not satisfied with where I ended up.

Then you jump into 4 and he's in episodes like, oh, man, Bashir, funny episodes.

So, you know, he's part of the crew.

He's part of the family, and then bam, they come along with for the cause, with the double whammy of Cisco's girlfriend, and his other security officer are both working technically for the marquee, which then leads into this.

It's that type of long form character arc that I just think DS9 excels at in that.

[08:53]

But this wasn't the plan, I don't think.

I just think at some point along the line they went, we've got editing there why the hell don't we make him the head of the marquee?

That's dramatic.

I think that they probably make the decision around about the adversary.

So towards the end of his 1st season.

So he's in a total of 9 episodes and I haven't seen all that much of him, but I do think that that introduction is really great and I love the callback to it where Odo actually tells Cisco to remind Starfleet exactly why they appointed Eddington.

Have you reminded them?

No, please do.

Yeah, that was pretty great.

And I do think that that's awesome.

They do attempt that obviously in Voyager with Jonas, don't they, having a kind of long-term character, but he doesn't really interact with any of our bridge crew.

And so, you know, we just had a scene. from when he's joining to when he's exposed.

But essentially, it's just him FaceTiming a Kazon every week or whatever, but nothing really comes of it and he doesn't have any obvious relationships with any of the main characters.

[10:05]

And so, you know, it's a much less well crafted thing.

It has a very kind of rural D more vibe to it.

You know, that sort of whole idea of, and I guess Iris Stephen Bear does this as well, doesn't he?

Where it's kind of like, well, what can we do with this character?

We have this person.

He's here semi-regularly.

We think he's really good.

Should we do something interesting with him?

I just think they've got a sense of occasion as well, don't they?

Like, like, in for the cause that, to spend the 1st half of the episode absolutely convincing you that casting is up to no good.

You ain't even looking at editing, so not for a 2nd and then halfway through the episode, it just suddenly pulls out a phaser and shoots Kira.

And you're like, what the hell is going on?

And then they know, right, okay, fine.

We'll leave it half a season.

But when he comes back, we've got to make it an event, right?

We've got to make it that Cisco's pissed, that Eddington is doing terrible things as the head of the marquee.

And I don't know.

I just think there's a sense of tension and a sense that things are coming to a head with the marquee in this episode, which I really like.

[11:13]

So, I mean, the McCabe are a big deal, aren't they, kind of earlier on in Deep Space Nine?

Series 2, isn't it, towards the end of series 2, yeah.

Yeah.

And obviously then they get spun off into Voyager, and that doesn't really kind of go anywhere.

I have things that I'll say about them a key because I think they're a good idea and I might have said this actually when we did Blaze of Glory.

I think they're a good idea in all sorts of ways.

And I don't think they intend to use them to make a political point here.

I think that this is character stuff, but I think that they can be used to make an interesting political point.

And I think in that 2nd last episode of TNG, which I think is called preemptive strike, They are used, I think, to make a political point, which is an interesting one.

And obviously, in Journey's end, I think they kind of emerge from the idea of the dispossessed First Nations Americans who are being ordered off their planet as usual because of real politic, because of, you know, proper grown up political decisions that need making.

[12:18]

And I think all of that stuff's super interesting.

But they aren't really interested in it here.

And I guess that's why perhaps the McKee thing doesn't go anywhere particularly.

We get some good episodes out of it.

We get some mileage out of it.

Macacity thing.

Obviously, these 2 Addington episodes or the 3 including for the cause.

But essentially, it ends up being a dead end and they decide to go in another direction.

And that's fine.

That's how this show works.

I get the feeling that DS 9 was like, right, there's the batten, the Marquis Voyager, and then they realise pretty quickly, the Voyager's doing absolutely nothing with it at all.

So they're like, well, we've established a thing.

We kind of got to sew it out.

Yeah, yeah.

Like, you know, so when it's very clear because we're now what?

Voyager 3, DS 95.

So we're 3 seasons in and they're clearly not doing anything at all.

They've abandoned the point, I think. of the marquee crew members on Voyager.

So they do this pair of episodes in series 5 because DS9 is in a place where it can deal with consequences like this.

[13:21]

The thing I like them using the marquee for, and I think it's something you and me kind of disagree on is how it punches the virtue of the Federation.

And I really like that.

I liken the marquis too parter that Cisco has that big speech about it's very easy to be a saint in paradise, but the marquis are living in paradise.

And they've had their homes torn away from them.

You get, at the end of for the cause, Eddington says, like, the Federation are worse than the Borg, you assimilate people and they don't even know it.

And so I do like that angle with the marquee.

But they're not doing that here because this is a character drama 1st and foremost.

Well, I think I think that what it is, We see Ensign Rowe, we see maybe Wesley, we see Thomas Riker.

We see people make the decision to join the McKee because the McKee are in the right.

And the federation is kind of like proper grown up politicians who realise that when these sort of adult negotiations take place, sometimes concessions have to be made.

[14:34]

Fortunately, no one at this table doing the negotiation will have to make those concessions.

It would be other people on different planets.

And that's, it's like America.

This is like, you know, and that's what Deep State sometimes does, is to critique a version of the Federation that's essentially America, and to do it from the left, where, you know, you've got a sort of liberal centrist federation that is made of serious, important grown-ups who know that decisions have to be made.

But essentially, Michael Eddington is right, and what he does, it seems to me to be fine.

And the one thing, the one moment where we kind of have a discussion about that is like early on in the episode where Eddington says, are you angry that I left Starfleet, or are you angry that it happened on my watch?

And he said, you didn't leave Starfleet, you know, you stayed and you gave them information, you stayed and you betrayed us.

[15:34]

And that implied to me, that if Eddington had said, actually, I'm out, what we're doing is wrong and I'm going to fight for the McKee, the way that Ensign Roe did.

I think that, you know, Cisco wouldn't have had the problem that he had.

And that seems to be there in the dialogue.

But this episode doesn't lean into the fact that the Makea in the right.

And in fact, Eddington is seen as being diluded and melodramatic and victimising these people by giving them false hope and all of those sorts of things, negative things that are said about him in a way that makes me think that they're not interested in using the McKee in the way that I kind of, I kind of like how that can be.

I mean, I don't think that somebody like Eddington couldn't emerge from a good cause, someone who is deluded, who wants to be a celebrity who wants to be seen as the man of the people and all of this.

I do quite like that.

Hang on, certainly Kenneth Marshall leans into it, amazingly in this episode, arms wide.

As well.

[16:36]

I do understand what you're saying about Cisco in this.

I don't mind these people being really flawed.

I don't mind him being angry that he's been fooled or that he seems a bit pathetic because he's going off on a vendetta because his ego's been bruised and things like that and I know these people should be better than all of this.

But actually, I like the parts of this episode where I'm going, I don't know that you're right.

I'm not sure why what you're doing is actually the right thing to happen here.

I like that.

I like that sort of discomfort watching it.

I have basically no problem with what he does to that Marquis colony.

That seems to me, to be perfectly reasonable.

But it's the personal grudge thing, which I find annoying.

And he isn't always playing it like that.

And certainly by the end of the episode in his interactions on the bridge of the Defiant with Eddington.

He is much calmer.

[17:36]

And he does land some blows on him and stuff like that.

But, you know, that final scene is just him acting, isn't it?

Like I'm Javert and I'm super evil.

You know, which is awesome.

That's tremendous.

I love that.

You better prepare yourself some quotes during that scene, all right.

So good.

Before we press play, like, this has been a really interesting conversation.

Like, it was clearly an exercise worth doing the marquee, wasn't it?

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Because the character choices that people make, the moral arguments that people get to have, like, they stirred the pot in a really interesting way.

I'm pleased they did it.

It's much better than like introducing the mail on or something.

Do you know what I mean?

Like it's a only, you know?

Oh, well, come on now.

I'm going to try not to get too hot and bothered in this episode of this testosterone flying about the place. pretty great.

Okay, I will count us in.

Five, four, three, two, one, and we are off.

[18:42]

Stockcave set one.

Of course, of course.

Very dark, isn't it?

Yeah.

I have to say, it's funny that this is called for the uniform, and the 1st thing that we see, Cisco, is wandering through caves, not in a uniform.

I think that's clearly a choice.

He looks pretty cool.

And I like the fact that we do see these refugees living at hardship, right, at the start.

Well, yes.

Yes.

Okay.

What would you rather have those CGI people from Enterprise?

The outlines?

It's actually not too bad.

It isn't too bad.

There are some refugee camps.

I do think the refugee camp, isn't there a refugee camp?

There's some refugee camps with row and stuff in them that look actually pretty good in TNG.

This is a slightly cheaper version of it because we can't go outside.

I don't understand though.

You're a person making the food there, sort of spooning it into the bowl.

She's got a dirty face.

I mean you've got water.

You can clean your face, love.

[19:43]

That's it, but she won't look like a refugee then.

Ah, fair enough.

Okay, enough.

Oh, here we go.

The gardener is about to emerge and press against Cisco's head.

Have I tuned into an episode of TJ Brooker instead of Detect 9?

What's going on?

Great gun, isn't it?

It's pretty good.

He's putting his dustbuster away.

And now he's got this sort of sexy Star Trek 3 gun that someone on Blue Sky identified for us.

I'm going to try not to labour the point, right?

But I just want to say that Kenneth Marshall and Avery Brooks have the most incredible sexual chemistry. this entire episode.

And I had perverse thoughts about the 2 of them. all I'm going to say, all right, until maybe the end.

He does have bad hair.

I do think the hair is a problem.

Would you have shaved it all off?

Yeah, well, I did. as you know.

I mean, look at you.

Come on, I know, right?

[20:44]

Jesus Christ.

Now, there's a subject you know a lot about. betrayal.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So yeah, this is the other thing that I think is slightly dodgy about this, is that since, um, since for the cause, uh, 8 months have passed and Cisco has been on Eddington's studio, even though he has not been mentioned once in that entire time.

Did you just own why?

during all the scenes we got in those intervening episodes.

It was the scenes that we didn't see where he went in the office and was like, have you heard anything about Michael Weddington?

No?

Okay.

Back to the tripples then.

Let's go.

Do you think, you know, it's still serialised television, do you know what I mean?

But it's not super serialised, it is still, you know, network TV and stuff like that.

But they do help themselves to it.

In Kursman Trek, there'd be a line or something in every episode.

[21:44]

There'd just be a little reminder that this thing is bubbling under until they're ready to tell the episode.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, this is reinstating. you can watch this as a standalone episode because this is reinstating absolutely what happened with the market. how they just possessed the political decisions that were made.

And look, he's genuinely playing it as distressed by describing what's happened to the refugees.

And Cisco does come across as unsympathetic because it is that well, sometimes, you know, important men in officers make decisions about this sort of thing and we just have to abide by it and it's your fault for not being able to accept that.

Although, and of course, I want to get into a political argument now, all right?

When he does say, like, they don't have to live like this.

Like we did offer them.

Yeah. a home and food and a comfort.

There's a point there.

I don't know if they're doing that in America.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, it's it's true.

[22:45]

The Federation does come off as better.

But I think, and and you know, in Journey's end, of course, and with Chakotay, it becomes, you know, indigenous Americans being dispossessed of their land again, and that just adds an extra level to it.

It's a hell of a line there though, isn't it?

You're in a war, captain, and you're on the wrong side.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

But this is where what you said comes in where he says, no, no, no, I don't see war victims.

I see victims of you.

And the promises that you have made to them.

Which, you know, like is probably less politically interesting, but in terms of a character drama, maybe?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. better approach.

They're not trying to do the politics of it here.

And that does exist, obviously, in other episodes about the McKee, but, you know, that's not what we're doing here.

We're doing an Eddington thing, I think.

I think sort of ultimately this episode is sold on how much you enjoy the relationship between Cisco and Eddington.

[23:50]

And boy, the way they play it out in this.

Something else.

I was actually surprised, though, by how much there was that wasn't involving Eddington.

Like, we don't see Eddington for a while after this.

Engine room Bridge.

Run the tiles.

Okay, yeah, they come.

All of that.

A lot of that.

Yeah.

Well, yes, and of course, introducing the new hollow technology. the allows people to stand in the middle of the room rather than be on the screen.

What you think about that?

So, I think that it is somewhat...

So, that set of the Defiant is really weird.

It's not sort of circular.

It's kind of long and thin.

And at no point do you ever see a shot of the viewscreen with any of the actors in it.

So my guess is that they haven't erected that wall and that they're shooting, they're shooting from the front into the bridge set and that they haven't put the view view screen up.

[24:58]

And we do cut to the viewscreen and see things on it from time to time.

But what we wouldn't have had are those scenes that we have in Star Trek, the Next Generation, where you have Picard standing, in the, you know, in the Enterprise Bridge, with a massive screen that dwarfs him and everyone else, and is able, you know, you are actually able to have scenes where people interact quite well.

But what you have instead is he's got a tiny telly about the size of the one that I have in my living room over there.

And it's really just not very impressive.

And I had thought before, like earlier on, before we started recording, you said that there's another episode that they use this, it's in 2 episodes.

But I thought it was erected for this precisely so that you could have those scenes between the 2 actors in the same room.

And I think that that's the right decision.

I think discovery makes the right decision when it comes back and just says, no, screw it.

We've had this technology all along because it's heaps better.

[26:02]

And of course, when Discovery does it, there's all interference patterns and stuff, just to remind us that they're holograms, until we go into the 32nd century, and then we have very rare interference patterns and people just act like they're in the same room.

And that's obviously vastly better.

You know, they're very discreetly cherry pick, DS now, don't they, uh, Kurtzman Trek?

You know, but it's never the characters because they can't get the actors for whatever reason.

It's not like Voyager, where they keep having Jane Wedge coaching.

They're doing anything.

So it's the technology or it's the changelings or it's section 31. you know, it's all things like that, you know, they're like, actually that was the most creatively interesting show.

Let's use the ideas.

Yeah, yeah.

It's a shame that we don't get many of the people back.

I mean, we get wharf, but...

Oh, there's the view screen, did you see?

Yeah, we did see the viewscreen, actually.

There you go.

There is a shot of the viewscreen there.

I'm quite wrong.

It is a very small set.

Right.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. a small set.

I like what I like is that when they appear and disappear, they have to use a different effect, and so it looks like telly, like it looks like red, green, and blue light.

[27:08]

So it looks like it's a telly thing.

So they kind of do that.

And I do like the thing of them pressing buttons that you don't see off camera.

I just like, it wouldn't have the sense of drama, would it?

If it was him talking to a bit of glass, it just wouldn't have a, well, not a glass, sorry.

They can't afford glass.

Yeah, whatever.

So yeah, so that's that's Eric Pierpoint.

Pierpoint?

Pierpoint?

I don't know how to say his name is Sanders.

He 1st appears in a season season 7 episode of TNG called liaisons.

He's one of the aliens.

I think he's the guy in the ship.

Um, but he is also in episodes that we have seen.

We've seen him.

Play before.

He is the ferryman in Barge of the Dead.

Oh, he's a Klingon.

Yeah, he's a Klingon.

He's used to a bit of latex.

And he is reads section 31 contact Harris in Enterprise.

[28:10]

Oh, do you not remember the dreadful New York backdrop that we watched an episode, didn't we?

Where they met down a dark alley.

They looked very dodgy.

So fake.

And he did his sort of terrible leather black thing.

Yeah, yeah.

So that was him.

That's him. him.

Okay.

Oh, here we go.

Right.

Before you waste your time running around trying to restore computer control.

I've already sabotaged it.

All right?

Shit.

I do like, I mean, this sort of cat a mouse where he's pulling rabbits out of hats.

I love all the ones that he does, you know?

And of course, that's why Cisco then has to finally pull the biggest rabbit out, doesn't it?

Yeah, yeah.

Well, like again, you know, it just so happens that, um, Eddington has one of these on his McKee Raiders and also it's the technology that's unaffected, you know, they managed to make it work for the rest of the episode.

[29:10]

And, you know, like he's lit strikingly as well in that place.

I think it's really good.

I think it's great.

I think that shot of the def wonderful, isn't it?

It's really...

Really good.

It's what we were talking about.

Do you remember we were talking about one little ship where they couldn't do one ship against the mother?

And yet they've just done it there.

So good.

And I think the McKee Raiders, which are obviously designs that are introduced late in TNG, are great as well. they look really good.

They look like proper kind of spaceships, you know.

They did that special effect short.

Like, they had to make it look like, white, what Cisco getting punched around the face as his ships being destroyed around him?

Yeah, it's good having him win.

Like, it is good having him win. and he's not going to kill.

That's the thing.

Nathan, he's a good guy.

When he gets angry.

Look at Cisco's face.

I just want to sit on him right now.

Look at him.

He would annihilate you, wouldn't he?

I'm so sorry, everybody.

You're going to have to put on a bit of this today, I'm afraid.

[30:14]

Do we have a small gay following?

I hope so.

I think we buy.

You guys are not going to be disappointed today.

See, in a way, like, in a way, he should be clearly delusional.

Like, like the way that Eddington's talking about how you're just following me and you've been after me for 8 months and I'm the person who's occupying your thoughts, I know when to walk away, it was never personal, but with you, it's personal.

See, all of that is him being delusional, and that's how they win is by playing into that delusion.

And so whenever Cisco plays it, whenever Avery plays it, like he really is all of those things, that kind of undermines the episode a little bit, I think. despite him being very sweaty and hot in those scenes.

I'm going to say something that was totally bizarre now, all right, but I really noticed, and I just noticed it again then.

That walk and talk scene was so well executed.

[31:16]

They came out of the lift.

They walked through ops, and then suddenly the cameras inside Cisco's office, so they go up the stairs from the point of view of Ops, and then they walk into the office from the point of view of Cisco's desk.

It's really fluid in a way that no one eats tricks, it's never like that.

It's a kind of a late 97 thing, isn't it?

Do you know what I mean?

Like that's what TV is doing at this point.

It's the West Wing, yeah.

I think maybe.

I think maybe it is.

I can't remember.

We've got up our game.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's a great set too.

I did like Edington saying as well.

Yeah, you don't know how hard it was to get that cascade virus past Chief O'Brien and Odo, all right.

I had to work at least the whole season.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Bless him.

Have we gone past a bit, yeah, where Odo goes, it's a piece of green poetry. quite a catchy piece as well.

So that's coming later, and I also think that that's actually very good.

That sounds like it's time wasting, but it actually anticipates like it feeds into them solving the space problem.

[32:25]

Do you know, the one thing about this actor whose name I've already forgotten.

What's his name?

Eric Pierpoint is, when I saw a squint, I can see Sloane from section 31.

They do look quite similar.

Wait, who signed from?

Oh, okay.

Sloane's the one in this show.

William Sadler.

Yeah, yeah.

No, he does join section 31, but it's in the past.

Oh, sorry, I can see why you've got...

He is a section. one aged layo, yeah, yeah.

The lines are very blurred.

Maybe that's the look they were going for.

Him and William Sadley, you know?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So I actually average American man haircut.

Yeah, yeah, he does have a very average American man.

Look, but I do like this scene because Cisco is clearly disappointed and we will see that later.

And like that look, the look where, where he says, you know, he fooled you and Cisco turns around and goes to be angry, but isn't.

Do you know what I mean?

Like he's not being a dick.

[33:26]

And that's important, I think, to the episode.

But he can't be Jaffair.

I want you to think about a hypothetical scenario now.

I imagine you really wanted to bring somebody down, yeah?

Yeah?

Somebody who had wronged you.

And then someone came in at the last minute and took all the pleasure away of doing it.

I mean it would be annoying, wouldn't it?

No, I'd be just grateful that they did it, actually.

It's a pity that he...

He fucks it up.

Yeah, go on, go and get him.

Tell me about it.

I want you to contact me and describe the look on his face if that's okay.

But that doesn't end up happening.

I do really like the bit where he says, oh, you know, if he'd fooled me like he fooled you and he goes, oh, I'm sorry.

I shouldn't have said it like that.

And then the way that the way that this guy turns and then says, no, I was fooled, you know, like I was fooled.

It's Dax in this scene.

So this seems really great.

You're looking at how sweaty and God, he is sweaty.

It adorable, isn't it?

But Terry is so good in this scene.

[34:29]

He's she's watching.

Well, she's going to director Victor LeBl.

What, you want me to hold that and deliver dialogue?

while Avery's watching.

Well, Avery Brooks is punching it.

Are you mad?

All right, I'll give it a go.

And look, every time she winces, like, ooh, God.

But she's kind of amused.

Do you know what I mean?

Like she is kind of amused and concerned.

Like, it's really good.

This is, you know, a long way from where she was in series one.

This is what you and I said about the episode last week, Final Mission, was why aren't they threading this stuff through the entire episode?

And so much of this episode is actually about Cisco and Dax, right?

And how Dax usually goes off on these crazy revenge missions and things like this.

Blood over them, ritual wind and things like that.

And how Cisco's always supporting her.

Well, now she says it's a good thing you're taking it out of the bag, Benjamin.

Because you're going to have to let go of this one.

I like the honesty that the 2 of them have.

[35:29]

It's great, isn't it?

It's such a good choice.

We did it when we when we did emissary and we talked about how he's got this old friend who's a kind of mentor and we've given that role to the beautiful young science officer.

And you think that actually is a stroke of genius and it works really well.

Look, look, Kira's face mirrors mine when Cisco walked in there all sweaty.

It's like, oh, that's one hell of a hot religious leader that I have.

She goes, you've just unlocked a new kink.

Thank you.

Captain Cisco. sweaty messiah.

Hey, it's better than KY covered corpse.

Oh, that's true.

That is true.

Oh, no, what are they talking about, selenium...

Yeah, yeah, see this?

Oh boy.

Suddenly, I think suddenly Cisco delivers a line of dialogue that doesn't belong to him because he didn't even know that this could be converted into whatever it was.

[36:32]

And then later on, he says, yes, he's stolen enough to poison every Maqu colony in the Badlands.

You can go, wait, how do you know that?

Or whatever.

Every Cardassian colony in the Badlands.

Much like Tom Paris and his bizarre hobbies.

One of Cisco's hobbies is just sitting there researching great weapons.

Yeah, but he didn't know about this one until Dax explained it, so I don't quite know what's happening.

Poor old no, no.

She's like, what, all you want me to do is basically say Tetanobabble, the whole episode.

Yeah, really?

Is that not a waste of my talent?

And it's the 2nd, you know, like the last deep space 9 episode that we had had her being an engineering expert talking about Shields and here she's on board the Defiant again doing that because the moment we go on board the Defiant.

Everyone stops being what they are on the sheep and just ends up being a normal star fleet crew.

They're, they're, um, looking to find things for knock to do now since he's come back.

He came back in.

Was it Rapture?

[37:34]

No, the ascent.

That's the episode where he came back from the academy, and they're sort of trying to find him a place, right?

And eventually it's just like, whoa, he's just a defied bridge corruptor, right?

Like that's what he does.

But I do love what they do with him here.

Paul Aaron is stuck saying all the techno Apple that everyone's saying to each other.

No, it's really good.

And it does.

I'm, like I said, before we started watching, I couldn't really work out why they were doing it.

Um, exactly.

Well, was it, is it not just because it's like an extra layer of suspense in the, their, not at full capacity and yet they're still going after him?

Or maybe that's why they can't find him because otherwise they've got this very powerful ship and why aren't you not just bringing him down?

But I mean, we bring down an Excelsior class ship later.

Do you know what I mean?

And we've already brought it down once when it was at full capacity.

But I do think that given they're not going to distress the ship in any way, it's the only way of reminding us, I guess, that the ship is damaged.

[38:35]

And so they say it's going to be 2 weeks or 2.5 weeks and he's getting it out of dock in order to, so it does make the, you know, it does sell the kind of personal fentetta idea.

Although he has drama.

That is exactly the sort of detail that was missing last week in those tedious technobabble scenes and TNG.

You just had not going.

Yeah, yeah, I'm happy to do it.

And as he walks off, he goes, exploding. exploding?

They're just, they always remember, they always remember the characters.

I just appreciate it.

Oh, this is the best.

I know, I've lost all perspective. and you should tell me to go home, to my office and behave myself and don't risk my career.

Just watching this.

So I watched this twice to prepare for this.

And I thought the 1st time through that this was maybe the best scene in it.

It's certainly, like it's, it's just excellent.

[39:36]

It's Avery being great.

It's it's Terry being great.

And it's the middle one of the 3 scenes that they have together that are all just really incredibly good.

And just the warmth that they have.

He looks at her like... couldn't love her more.

Exactly.

And she's saying to him, like, do you know what?

You could have supported me like this in the past.

And he's acknowledging it. yes, yes.

And that, there's even a little goofy smile and everything.

It's really cute.

Like, it's properly cute.

The 2 of them are really enjoying that scene.

I think.

Oh, now I need to prepare myself for the techno apple.

They try and get the phone thrustable get a mention.

That's right.

Impulse power, deteriorum, injection rates.

My God.

I think, do you know why?

I reckon the techno babble man, you know, the insert techno babble here person that writes it for the Swift was like, look, you've given me nothing to do for a whole season.

[40:36]

Please, will you just give me some technobabble to write?

Only Voyager gives me any work.

But you kind of think that if they had more money or something like that, that the ship would still be distressed in some way.

You know, like it's absolutely pristine.

And so the only way that we know that it's being taken out of dock and that it's not ready and it's not fixed is because we just repeatedly told that because they can't afford to show it.

I just feel like this sequence where they nearly hit the docking pylon.

It should be so pony, but the way the ship completely...

Oh, I love it, though. so ridiculous.

I think what's great is how well lit those models are, like just how tremendously well lit they are.

Yeah, they've just kind of got there now, haven't they?

Yeah, remember how the enterprise was always just very evenly lit all over, but you can see the shadows on the defiant change as it circles around and things and it's, you know, it's just much more interestingly lit.

[41:43]

Oh, look at that POV show.

Oh, the pylon.

That's awesome.

There's the, there's the viewscreen with no one in front of it.

Half a row.

There we go Jesus.

Now, we weren't laughing like that with the garbage scowl last week, were we?

That was very boring.

Oh boy.

Head to the Badlands.

Oh, good.

We've got that special effect saved from last time.

So don't worry.

So they look different to me this time.

They certainly look different from the way that they looked in the caretaker.

They laser better.

The story is a completely I think Basic Glory has the best, so sort of columns of flames that they do.

It's really effective.

Oh, look at Cisco.

Well done, people.

And he's sort of smiling at them all.

Yeah, I like that actually where Noggs is actually we can go to Warp 7 and it's kind of like, look at us, aren't we good?

[42:45]

And I thought that that was nice to have a little moment of triumph in there.

These bad lands look like every single, um, a normally that voyagers ever come through.

I think that they're always trying to recreate the Mutara Nebula from Roth of Khan.

Oh, doodle.

Oh, God.

That sequence is out there.

So great.

Well, they do it in best of both worlds too.

That was his loin.

Edgeborough Bridge.

Where are those films?

Aaron is so great.

He really good, isn't he?

What a loss.

Yeah, it's Kira still don't tend to apple.

Yep, yep.

God knows why she's an administrator.

Is this the dialogue scene between Cisco and Eddington in the minute where it does the wave?

Yeah, I just think that part in gesture.

It's just like that.

Oh, you thought you caught me, did you?

[43:45]

Sorry.

There we didn't have him appear, did we?

Cisco turned his chair around and he was already there.

So he didn't have him appear.

He was already in shot, which is pretty good.

Again, it just makes it seem like he's there.

Avery, all right, because with every dialogue scene they have, he has to spin his chair around right away from the crew to Eddington and he gets more melodramatic with each one.

So there are 2 documents that Eddington Sands, right?

One is this book, and then the other one is the Breen nursery rhyme.

Would you like to hear it?

Or, beep it, or, or, or, or, that's it, actually.

Yeah, but it sort of through a brain transducer voice modulator thing.

Um, yes.

Are they poets in Kurtzman Trek then?

No, but that character Locke, who you saw at the very beginning of Face the Strange, the last discovery we did, is a Breen, although, because they're not wearing helmets anymore, are they?

[44:58]

Well, they're still they're still liquid.

But they can solidify themselves so that they can appear as actors on location.

Mostly.

So now Eddington, and I do like these.

He's lured them there so we can go and attack somewhere else.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Again, it's that's all fun too, isn't it?

The cat and mouse thing is precisely it, and it is pretty good.

But look, he's just kind of frustrated. you know, like he's not angry and that's how it has to be.

It can't be. that he's Javert.

Javert has to be the act that he's persuaded to put on in order to trick, in order to trick, Eddington, I think.

I am pleased that they critique Les Miserables.

I mean, I found it such a dirge, that book.

So I've never read it, but the musical comes out in the 80s and is massive, like absolutely massive and I do like that.

Have you seen it?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Uh, it, it, you know, there's the post of the iconic poster.

It was everywhere.

[45:59]

And so in a way, having scenes in 1997 where um, Dax and Cisco explained to the audience what uh, Les Mis is, is a kind of depressing Star Trekie thing, isn't it, really?

Yeah, it's just like, we can't rely on the audience to know any talk with pop culture. that's right Well, that's the other thing, which is a deliberate choice.

You know, like if they were to do it now, someone would mention having seen the musical or heard the musical.

Do you know what I mean?

But it's the sort of thing where we are only allowed to do, like, classic literature.

We can't reference pop culture at all, which is why these are all space people rather than just people, you know.

Let's be honest, Nathan.

And if they were to do it now, Captain Pike would be going one day more, one day more till execution.

We'd have the songs, wouldn't we?

We would.

[46:59]

Oh, poor old um, I've forgotten his name now.

Sanders, Kevin Sanders.

Look, even his uniforms all dirty.

That's the only way we can tell things are bad in this episode.

Well, I think we have that great shot of the Malinche, which is a massive Excelsior class ship, and it does have stuff coming off it, and it's, you know, askew and stuff like that.

And so that sort of sells a...

But at no point, like they're working together, Cisco and this guy, right?

At no point is there any tension here between them.

They are both after the same goal.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And that's good.

Do you know what I mean?

It's not it's not Cisco getting his dick out and saying, well, you know, like I...

I just wondered, even if this was Voyager, it would have been about false tension.

No, I like it.

I like that they were both kind of grown-ups about it.

We relied on Odo back at Deep Space 9 to have his contractual obligations scene and come in and tell us about the poetry.

[48:01]

Yeah, but the thing that they do with the poetry is that they make it clear what sort of messages, uh, um, Eddington sends.

And so we have Odo, again, wonderfully appearing on the bridge here as a hologram.

Um, Yeah, you wonder why that just didn't do that.

A heterophonic verse. quite a catchy one too.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So, so, um, so the message is brain, right?

Like, you can't understand the verse. all nonsense.

There's nothing encoded in the music.

There's nothing encoded in the metre.

It's just a brain nursery rhyme, and so it means we're going to a brain colony, and it's a clue, and that's it.

But Les Miserables is the same thing.

It's just a very obvious thing.

He sends him lame is, uh, and it's because he's saying, this is you, you are Javert.

I am Valjean, and that's how they defeat him.

[49:05]

Like, because both of those messages are just the most obvious thing that he can think of to sand.

Do you mind amusing the literary illusions, like the comparison?

No, not at all.

I think it's good.

And I think it's, I think it is, you know, the fact that they talk about French melodrama, again, you know, remember when Archer is talking to Andreas Katsullis and he can't name a single classical play or something?

In the library, you'll find something.

You'll find something.

Whereas, you know, even Dax has read it and doesn't like it, like, I think that's great.

And I do think that that makes her a little bit more relatable.

It's kind of like, oh, 17th century.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, imagine if it was Picard.

A phone piece of mixture.

Yeah, exactly.

Exactly.

So that's pretty great and Cisco's Reddit and stuff, but no one's seen the musical apparently.

No, it's so, wow, you know, they don't have no fun in the future, do they?

[50:05]

The entertainment is, I mean, what is entertainment in the future?

I don't have TV, do they?

No, they have the holiday.

Hol novels.

Yeah.

Oh, of course.

Yeah, I can actually be in the musical.

They want it.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, it's mostly, you know, shacks and doctor to Anna's sister.

This is so funny.

I hope you notice.

They're trying to do sort of handheld camera work, but the set's so small. they can only move it a fraction of an inch.

But don't move it over there or we'll see the viewscreen.

That's right, yeah.

We haven't put up the window, all right?

Yeah, well, again, we don't do this map on the view screen.

We do it in this tiny screen here in this corner of this tiny set.

Nathan, look, there's a screen full of Dax and Kira looking absolutely magnificent.

So aren't they fantastic?

So great.

So great.

Do you know, I want to get that women of trek book that nana is so right.

She interviews.

People right the way back to Michelle Nichols to Kurtzman Trek action.

[51:07]

Yeah, as well.

So I want to see what journey we've gone on with the ladies over the last 30 years.

Didn't she say that Jess Bush said, no, we wouldn't put up with any of that shit, you know?

And good for them.

Yeah, yeah.

I wouldn't try and hoodwink Jess Bush.

She's scary.

I mean, to be fair, it.

They've just introduced a poisonous element into the atmosphere of a planet, right?

Which means the Kardashians have got to go.

Yeah.

So, Cisco is just doing the same thing.

And in fact, it's resolved because they swap planets, right?

Like, that's literally what happens at the end. is, oh, and by the way, the Cardassians move to this planet and we move to the other planet.

I'm not quite sure why we say, um, there's one thing here which I think is weird, which is that Cisco does destroy a ship, like fires on a McKee ship, presumably killing everyone on board, uh, and we never say anything about that or, or like that seems like the worst thing that he does.

[52:08]

And no one comments on it.

You're right. that is strange.

I do love those POV shots.

So through the defiant window following the ships.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, it has a nice sense of urgency, yeah. really good.

And again, again, when it blows up, they're shooting it from below the model.

So it just feels really impressive.

No, I think it's really good.

You know, it's good visual and stuff, but it doesn't go anywhere and it seems odd and it should probably have been can't.

But I do like this.

But maybe at the end of the episode when Dax goes, you know, sometimes I like it when the bad guy wins.

Oh, are you going to write the letter to all those marquee members families?

I did that ship.

But again, this, because this is starting to give us an idea of what Eddington thinks.

And not for a 2nd does Cisco consider leaving the Cardassians to die and going after Eddington.

But because Eddington thinks he's Javert, he thinks that this might even work on him, you know, that, uh, But he's not, he doesn't seem particularly fussed about missing Eddington this time.

[53:16]

It's kind of like, oh, All right, I better go and save those guys.

We've got people to say...

Well, when he sets off the torpedo at the end, He does send him a message going, you've got a little while to get away from the planet, but I am going to poison the atmosphere.

Yeah, which is what you will just do it.

Like, literally what you were just doing.

Twice.

Doesn't he do it to 2 planets?

I like as well.

Now they've introduced the book. yeah.

They've basically got carte launch from this point in the episode to make this as melodramatic as Les Miserables.

But we know exactly what we're doing now.

So that last scene, I mean, I can't think of many scenes in 90s trick that are as madly melodramatic as, all right, Chavette, I'll give you what you want.

Maybe Gates that time when she went, shut up.

But apart from that.

Well, I mean, think about what happens with Maxwell and O'Brien, in the wounded at the end, where they sort of sing the song and they think about what the Cardassian War was like and Maxwell kind of goes.

[54:17]

Understated, isn't it?

Yeah, but Maxwell kind of goes, that's all over now, isn't it?

you know, that's finished.

This is, that was a time, but it's gone and I'm doing the wrong thing.

Like I said, Nathan, DS9, it's got a sense of occasion.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I think this is this is better.

But I do, I do like how that, that one resolves itself.

Yeah, I did too.

Oh, I did too.

Yeah.

I mean, I think TNG is better.

Like it should be subtle. when TNG does melodrama.

Well, it's usually in a very earnest sort of way.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

But again, all of this now, here's the plot of, well, so Wikipedia doesn't start until 2001 and so, and this is 1997.

I think we're on the internet at this and most people have seen Lame Miz, but we do have to explain what it is and what it's about and who Javert and who Valjean are for the viewers at home, which I think is...

[55:20]

I will confess.

I will confess that I am that person to talking to because I hadn't heard of Les Miserables.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I'd watch this episode.

Well, that's it.

So it was perfect for me.

For a kid, do you know what I mean?

Like that's kind of, and that's kind of, this is how I learned about Les Miserable was watching this episode is absolutely going to be a whole bunch of the audience's experience, I think, too.

Nathan Terry's always.

Oh, they're like cut jewels.

Did you see are they?

Looking at him.

Gosh, beautiful.

She is. she's stunning Now he's saying, it's not about the policeman.

It's about Valjolan.

Yeah, yeah, that's it.

He likes Les Mis not, because it's about Cisco, because it's about him.

And his work that out, and this is him working out how to fool him.

And again, it's fooling him, which is what happened to him.

You know, you had Sanders say, you know, he fooled you and stuff like that.

Oh, sorry.

But now Cisco gets his own back by fooling him and actually getting him into prison, which is where we next see him at the beginning of Blaze of Glory.

[56:26]

I love that line.

He's Robin Hurd.

He's a dashing, romantic figure.

That's how he sees himself.

And so it makes perfect sense that we get a chance to allow Avery Brooks to finally emerge as the villain of the scene.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, the last scene.

I mean, do you know the bit?

It absolutely kills me every time I see it.

Major.

Shut that thing off.

Commander Worf, prepare to launch torpedoes.

And then he goes, wait, and Cisco gives him a look.

There's basically a massive bloody punch in the face.

It's incredible, that last thing.

But we're not there yet.

Not quite.

I'm just getting excited.

But look at Cisco. really animated. like he loves this idea.

He loves the idea and it's not because he really is the villain.

In fact, the thing that sells him as being the villain is wharf objecting to the possible launch of torpedoes because remember that on Star Trek, the next generation.

[57:32]

He was the one who's always wrong and who always wants to take the violent course of action and it is always overruled.

I like the fact that Cisco doesn't tell him what he's up to.

He's told Dax.

These 2 are like, fucking hell, he's lost his mind.

Look, Kira looks like, you want me to walk?

I think part of the thing too is that maybe they shouldn't have chosen trilithium resin as the name for the poison.

Um, because it was established as a very deadly kind of toxin to everyone sort of thing.

But whatever. doesn't matter.

They're just reaching back into the glossary for another name.

Remember we 1st hear about it in Starship Mine?

I just love the look on Wolf's face when he goes, commander, I said launch torpedoes and Wolf's going, I don't want to be an accessory to this.

[58:34]

But of course, like, this is all part of the fun, right?

That they think he's lost his mind.

Yeah, yeah. as well as Eddington does.

But it's to try and sell it to Edington, I think.

Yeah.

And actually, when the torpedoes go out, there's a really menodramatic sting of music that goes like, like, it's really over the top.

I didn't notice who did the music here, but I thought the music was actually pretty good and it riffed on the theme quite a lot.

Is it Jay?

It probably is, Jay. it's good, it's usually J.

Oh, boy, 0 boy.

Incoming transmission.

Here we go.

Here we go.

You're bluffing, all right?

No, he's calling him Shafir for fucks.

Yeah, no.

What a fucking drama queen.

You're gonna turn a whole planet of people into hopeless refugees.

[59:34]

That's not all I'm going to do.

Just minutes ago.

I'm going to every fucking planet in the DMC, all right?

And this is sort of like the Cisco that you see in this episode.

It is what they didn't want for Cisco, wasn't it?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

To start off with, they didn't want this aggressive bully.

You know, fist fly and things like that.

But come on, it plays into Avery Bruce's strengths as an actor.

But I actually like, you know, his villain act here isn't as overtly angry as he was before.

He's super calm.

And look, look at what a big girl.

Eddington's being.

He's got his little quivering lip and stuff.

A big girl, that's a sexist thing to say.

But he's being a big drama queen, I guess I can say that at least.

This pair, I promised myself, I was like, this pair would have the best revenge sex you've ever seen in your life.

I'm telling you, it'll be amazing.

You should have thought about that before you attacked a Federation Starfleet.

[1:00:40]

Laying a course to track and two.

We're gonna go and blow up a few more planets.

Yeah, we're going to go get Nissa and Tree Mass...

Yeah.

Console, Cassia.

You betrayed your uniform.

Oh, I love all this.

Oh, look, look at, he's like a bomb waiting to go off Cisco.

No, this is just him doing acting, though, remember?

This is him doing acting.

No, acting.

But it's Cisco doing acting.

I don't mean it's Avery doing acting.

It's Cisco doing the big.

I'm, you know, like, I'm Javert and I'm going to make you, like, he's going to make him surrender.

Oh, well, fine.

Cisco, look at me like that then, please.

Blazing eyes.

Oh, right, Javert, here we go.

I'll give you what you want.

Why do you mean?

[1:01:44]

Sorry.

This is better than he's not coming back.

All right.

Although that was funny good as well.

And for the same reason, I think.

It's just, like, we get this, oh, my God.

We get the sort of giant hilarious over the top cliche thing.

Are they locks his fingers together?

Very satisfied.

Well, that went well. villain.

And now here we are for the closing scene.

Yeah.

I feel like we shouldn't be having this much fun with poison planets, but they swap.

They just swap.

See, it just says that.

Oh, that way very quietly just goes, oh, do. as Eddington comes out.

Basically get rid of him.

It's the, I trust you had a productive mission.

And like, you don't know at this point that they're bringing him back.

You know, like we didn't know that and we see him sort of arrive.

And to be fair, to DS9, it could have ended here, right?

They've got him.

That could have been the end, but no, they did one last episode showing the consequences after this and, well, massacring the entire market.

[1:02:52]

But that does go to show that the Jemadawa are a terrifying thought in that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

In fact, what that's what it is, isn't it?

The Jem'adar kind of take their place, like the McKee were a previous adversary that are wiped out by the Jem'adar, and that just helps to beef up the Jem'adar.

And I think it gives us a fight scene too. quite good.

As hell last line.

Oh, I love it.

Yeah, just remember.

Sometimes I love it when the bad guy wins.

It's a great sax line too, isn't it?

It is.

Do you know, I mean, you know me.

I love season 5 of Dick Space 9 and look at what we've done recently.

We did that 2 passer in Purgatory Shadows, by Inferno's light.

We've done trials and tribulations recently.

Now we've done this.

Like, I think this is a really confident time for Big Space 9. where, you know, there is the odd, let he who is without sin, although that does still have Vanessa Williams and Dax, who is doing the pottery scene from Ghost together.

So we'll give it that.

But I just think they got the characters where they want them.

[1:03:55]

They've got the stories where they want them at this and that is just reaping a lot of awards.

Yeah.

It's the end of the episode, and it's time for us to work out where we're going next.

This was your choice, naturally, an excellent episode of Deep Space 9.

And so it's my go on the randomiser, and we are going to go back somewhere that we haven't been to for quite some time.

We are going to watch an episode of Star Trek Picard.

Episode 159 was our last Picard episode, and this was episode 199. 40 episodes we've done.

It's been a while.

Do we hate this show so much?

I don't know.

I kind of want to eke it out.

But who knows?

Who knows?

Do you know why it is?

There's just so many 90s Treks episodes.

No, I know.

We've got to get through what we do.

It's also a little bit hard to watch Picard because of course, like Discovery, the basic narrative unit. of Star Trek Picard is the season rather than the episode.

[1:05:00]

And so we always have to spend a bit of time to orient ourselves.

But let's see what we come up with.

I like doing that though. you know, I've sort of discovered now.

I quite like dropping myself in the season and seeing which episodes sink or swim, you know, depending on where they are. way that no one ever watches them.

All right.

Exactly.

Excuse me.

You was the co-creator of this format, right?

No, it was my dumb idea too.

Yeah, exactly.

All right.

I'm going to press the button.

Your random Star Trek Picard episode is season two, episode 4 Watcher.

Us, 7 and Rafi, search for the detained Rios.

Oh, Rios.

Yeah, beautiful.

A lot attempts to enlist the help of an old friend in finding the location of the watcher.

Well, that does sound like a sort of uh, sort of uh, A to B sort of episode. little bit.

I think Ola Brady might be the watcher.

[1:06:01]

I think that might be what's going on here.

We do get to learn how evil ice is as an organisation, but that's just the news these days.

That was 2022.

Trapoliso, Nathan.

The last one we did was 2 of one.

That was also a bit of an A to B episode.

I feel like if we're going back to Picard after so long.

We should do a biggie.

Yeah, I think you're right.

I think you're right Although 2 of one did have an excellent musical number in it.

Yes.

Oh, boy.

I could still see her in that red dress.

What is it about red dresses and singing?

I mean, his way, 2 of one.

It always works. wonderful.

All right.

I think it might be this one.

Your random Star Trek Picard episode is season three, episode five, Imposters.

Imposters.

Picard and Riker, prepare to face consequences for their actions when they are greeted by a familiar face from the past, who is investigating a deeper threat.

It's the row episode.

Yeah, I think it might be.

[1:07:01]

Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Oh, let's do that.

Yeah, come on.

That a big...

Okay, yep, I think we do that one.

Absolutely.

And we've only done one episode of season 3 of Picard up till now.

Is this the episode where they do the unthinkable and have Picard and Riker have that massive row at the end of the episode?

Oh, maybe I can't remember that.

I think it is.

I can't remember.

It lasts for a bit and it's, that's the one point of that season where I really sat up and I was like, fucking hell, we are doing something new here.

I just think this season is really great.

And it's not just because it's the old crew doing the same old shit that they did for 7 years because it's not.

But it's a really long single adventure.

You know, we're on the Titan for hours and hours, you know, like much longer than a movie and lots and lots of things happen in that time.

I think it's really great.

It does lift its game.

I think as a story. and it's not just, I think, nostalgia and fan service that makes season 3 so good, but we'll see.

[1:08:06]

You know, you know, my general issue with 3 is the departure of all the characters from one. and two.

Oh, I loved.

Alison Peele.

In favour of getting marina cert.

It's against, but...

I mean, what's happening here?

But that sounds great.

I can't wait to watch that I do remember that 1st half of 3 being pretty great, actually.

Yeah, cool.

Excellent.

Let's do that You've been listening, Tom titled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford and Nathan Bottomley.

We're online at Untitled Star Trek project.com, where you can find subscription links and links to our social media accounts.

Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceran, and the theme was composed by Cameron Lamb.

This episode was recorded on the 1st of September 2026 and released on the 4th of September.

We'll see you next time for Star Trek Picard, imposters.

[1:09:26]

I, uh...

Oh, we're out now.

Yeah, I...

So, one way she dies, where she sacrifices herself at the end, she does.

Yeah.

It's really good.

And then later on they kill Shelby, remember, in the kind of final battle?

Like in the final episode.

They get Elizabeth Dennahy back in and kill her.

Couldn't they have killed Gates?

No.

No.

They give her a big fucking gun.

Thank you for a giant gun.

She wouldn't have been able to show emotion while she died, wouldn't she?

She'd just be staring at me.

She would understand what was going on.

It's only when she's doing medicine and stuff that she's terrible.

They made me die when I listened back to final mission and I'm going, look at her.

She's vacant and you're going, no, she's, you say she's tense.

How can you do that?

She's always Ted.

You don't want to execute my son.

Oh, I don't know.

I think I mentioned that, didn't I?

You even did that line.

[1:10:27]

And shut up.

I forgot the 2nd one in a rope.

Good shut up. today as well.

Oh, gosh, justice.

Yeah.

Do you know what?

I think, actually, on, I might bounce us back after imposters and do a link to TNG and, because this is like TNG at its finest and then do.

And then do season one and say, let's go right back to the start. right, back to the start. one or two. one or two.

God, if we got it counted at 5 point.

I'll be so happy That'd be so great.

Holy crap, that was it. quite a bit of one.

We've done quite a bit of one.

Naked Now, Justice, Angel one.

Skinner for Evil, the Neutral Zone.

We've only done up.

I think of the best segue, Nathan.

I could do, yes, okay, let's move away from gates and go to Dr. Pulaski.

Fabulous Diana Moldar.

She is fabulous.

[1:11:28]

I wonder why I put the seasons there.

I think the podcast orders, but the season and the and the season.

Even a jammer gave imposters 3.5 .

Well, of course he does.

It's quite serious.

It's TNG characters.

It's 90s trek, you know, Roseback.

Yeah.

No puppets.

No, buddy.

Jeez.

Oh, it's a shame, you know, they weren't marketing, though.

I mean, someone would be making them.

So I actually said, yeah, anyway, like, there's a reason why I'm a little bit sad that it's only a dream.

And yeah, because...

Yeah, but in the sense that it didn't happen.

But it didn't happen as much as every other single episode of Star Trek, the Next Generation, didn't happen.

You know what I mean?

We saw it.

So it happened.

You can't tell these people that, though.

No, no.

And so part of it was a documentary.

[1:12:29]

It gives them a sop and that doesn't matter.

But then the other thing is, um, that there's a thing that they do that they discover because they're invulnerable.

So the lead, Orion Pirate's a woman, and she just cuts, Pelle is complaining or saying something, and he just, she gets her sort out and cuts her in half, and then we have a scene in Sick Bay, where they're just stitching her together, because it's all just fluff coming out.

Like, I think Arne's arm falls off at one point, they just sew it back on. because it's a Muppet. and they learn it's a Muppet.

And so, and, um, she spaces Pike.

She throws pike out of the airlock, and of course he's fine because he doesn't have to breathe because he's a puppet.

And so the final scene has them all flying through space.

They can fly through space because it doesn't hurt them.

And it's actually, Spock says, um, oh, like, Spock says something about, oh, you know, so you, um, you were all turned back or something, you know, like, um, Scotty, you got the, and, you know, fix the transporter and you're all turned back.

[1:13:38]

And he says, well, why haven't you, haven't you turned back?

Why haven't they all turned back?

And Tupring says, there's something that they wanted to do, and you cut to them all outside flying through space unaided.

And it's really sweet and kind of exciting because they've, you know, spent their life in space, but they've never been able to properly experience being in it.

And it's actually really very cool.

Hear me out.

That sounds great.

And do you know what?

I think I'm going to really like that episode.

But there are moments where you potentially have jumped the shark and a load of puppets flying from his face.

I mean, to the wrong mind.

Yeah, I know.

That is funzy, jumping the shark, right?

Like that's like, what's happening here?

It's wonderful.

It's so good It's like it's like the musical.

We jumped the shark with the musical and that really happened, the musical.

I love the musical.

[1:14:39]

In fact, you know what?

I've grown increasing fondness for the song we were most critical of.

I've listened back to it.

So many times and now I really like it, which is the last one.

Oh, that I came the last one.

Yeah.

Okay, cool.

Cool.

Yeah, it's I'm very often heard singing that down the aisle of Sainsbury's.

I just love her song so much.

Like, or a song.

Oh, I still think all systems...

Yeah, I was just going to say. my favourite.

It's just I just remember watching that going, fuck me, they're going to get away with it.

This is really catchy.

Good.

But I know, I know I will watch that puppet episode when we get around to it and I will absolutely love it because I love Muppets.

I love cartoon humour. and all of the stuff, right?

I know I will love it.

It's just been a mad season though. cartoons before.

Remember the end of those old scientists where the final scene they're all drinking and they've become cartoons and they're kind of going, my eyes are really big and stuff.

[1:15:45]

I think like, like, um, Russell's uh, 2nd iteration of Doctor Who, I think because the show Star Trek and Doctor Who have kind of been cancelled, and this is the point where they've been cancelled.

It just gives all those assholes carte blanche to say, this is why this is why it's been cancelled. you know what I mean?

But and if they're doing something that's out there instead of doing tedious... like final mission.

Yeah, yeah. um, then it's all fuel for the fire.

Well, I mean, I mean, the thing is too, that that is going back to original Star Trek, which has the Romans episode and the gangsters episode. and you kind of think, yeah, yeah, yeah. which is great with the sort of thing that, you know, TNG would gnaw off both its own legs rather than do.

Do you know what I mean?

They would just never do that because that's just silly. one at the end of two, the pilot with the beautiful 60s woman secretary, the time traveller with a cat.

[1:16:46]

Yeah.

Yeah.

So all they do is the ones that people would remember, you know, in the future.

I think their holodeck episode is great.

That holodeck episode, which is about original Star Trek.

You know, again, that was where people were losing their shit because there's that scene of Kirk in charge of the ship, like Captain Kirk in charge of the shitty ship on Final Frontier or whatever the name of the show was.

I'm quite pleased, actually, because I shall be able to make you eat your words of what you said earlier when we do get to this season of Strangely Worlds in Untitled Star Trek Project, because it's absolutely perfect for jumping in and just watching a song.

Yeah. on its own.

And I think actually out of context, I think these episodes may land very differently than watching them all together.

Yeah, I think that's possibly true, actually, because it's wacky every week.

And because there doesn't seem to be much of a throw line.

There was the kind of Roger Corby, um, uh, nurse chapel relationship thing, which runs through a few episodes and and, you know, the gamble coming back as a villain and stuff like that.

[1:17:52]

Like that stuff in last season.

And that, you know, like, um, uh, uh, um, Erica's pretty younger brother doing the documentary and Erica recovering from the, the, PTSD with the gone and stuff.

Like all of that stuff is there in series 3.

But series 4 doesn't have that.

The only thing is that Laan is losing her shit a bit.

You know, like there's a, there's a few episodes where, as if something is happening to, you know, she punches that, the dinosaur in the face in that 1st episode.

But she does some other things as well, which make it seem like she's a Noonian song, you know, like as if Noonian sing or whatever, like she's a she's a potential problem.

But that's all.

I mean, I have a feeling that last miniseries that they do is going to be heartbreaking because they have to dismantle this crew and get everyone where they need to be for the original series.

And so those characters that are a part of the original zeros, but you certainly have come to love.

[1:18:59]

They're all off somewhere.

I don't think they'll kill them.

They won't kill.

Oh, I hope not.

Because the show's not that sort of show.

I think.

You see, that's the other thing too.

That maybe Strangely Worlds operates better in an environment where there's discovery, which is too serious.

You know, yeah, you know.

And everyone was going, how refreshing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right.

Everyone was going, oh, this is light and fun, but now Star Trek, you know, it's the only thing that's on. you know.

It's just mad to think that, once upon a time, you had Doctor Who and Tortured and the Sarah Jane Adventures on, and once upon, and all those confidentials and the kiddie confidential.

And that once upon a time there was discovery and lower decks and strangely wells.

All on, and Picard.

Well, that year in 2022, yeah. franchises?

Yeah, there's nothing now.

TV. ruined.

Yeah.

But there's plenty for us to talk about, though.