The Forsaken

Hey, Joe. Hi. So, we're back aboard Deep Space 9 this week for series one episode 17. It's the Forsaken, which was 1st broadcast on the 23rd of May, 1993 which is just over 3 months after tapestry. Oh, after tapestry. Yeah. Okay. 93. God, you feel old? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. right. This episode is 32 years old. Oh, God. I'm visibly crying before your eyes. Terrible, just shocking. So, Pillar is involved in the teleplay here and it's based on a story by someone else. And Pillar says he's quoted on memory alpha is saying that what they were looking for at this point in series one is kind of day in the life stories. So this is not a story with a strong central idea. It's a story with 3 fairly light subplots. It's got an A plot, a B plot, and a C plot. And I think that if the show was mostly like this, it would be a bit tiresome. But I have to say that I really enjoyed this episode. So I watched this twice in close succession, because I enjoyed it so much the 1st time. I thought, okay, hang on. Maybe I'll just enjoy Mrs. Troy so much that I need to go back and try this. No, I enjoyed it more the 2nd time. Maybe because I knew what was coming. Day in the life of D Space 9 works for me because I love being on D Space 9 and I love being with these people. I've said it a 1000000 times. They do this a couple of times a year, don't they? They do what's happening on the station today. ABC. So they do take this forward. I think they get better at bringing the plots together because you're right, none of these are related. There is an essential theme. If this was modern trek, there would be something running through these, wouldn't there? Yeah, yeah. I mean, so there's a there's one of the plots, I'm going to call it the C plot, or maybe it's the B plot. Lets not fight, though. The puppy? Yeah, the puppy one. So something happens to the ship's computer, and that causes the issue that traps Laxana and Odo in the lift, and it also causes the fire that threatens Julian and the ambassadors, the federation ambassadors that he's escorting around the station. So they are kind of linked together causally, but not really. Tenuously, isn't it? Yeah. But one thing, you know, feeds into the other plots, but thematically they're not sort of related in any way. And each plot kind of goes on unimpeded by the fact that, you know the station's on fire and stuff like that in the other plot. So, um, it's very light. Each plot is sort of fairly thin, and I think the central plot isn't the plot that gets the title. I think the central plot is Odo and Black Sana trapped in a lift together. And for me, that was the highlight of the episode. Oh, by a mile. And Pillar also says he's quoted their own memory alpha is saying they wanted to save some money at this point as well, which is why they wanted a day in the life of Deep Space 9 because the standing stats are always there. So he thought, well, fine. I'll throw 2 people in a lift. That will be cheap. But it leans into what I think is, and DS9 gets this better than any of the other 90s treks, and that is when you put 2 people together in a room. I know it's cheap, but it can re rewards. duet wolves. They do it time and time again with 2 characters. The wire, you know. And the result is, is you learn so much about the 2 characters, you know, there's sort of comedy witty lines here between, oh, don't Mrs. Troy, she's trying to fuck him in the lift or whatever she's trying to do. She goes. I think the quote goes. She goes from being the last person you would ever want to be stuck in a lift with to the best person you could possibly be stuck. And that's in the in the space of about 10 minutes and 3 scenes. And that's really good character writing. It's so great, isn't it? So we've done a couple of episodes with Magell already. So we did manhunt, which was just... Really shockingly bad. And we've done another appearance of hers. I think her last appearance on Deep Space 9, which was the Muse. And I remember thinking that that was really great and coming away from it, actually kind of sorry, that they didn't follow up on the relationship between Odo and Luxana. And I kind of feel that same way here because I think it's extremely great. It's so well done. So the 1st time that she visits him in his office, she kind of pushes him up the wall and really kind of forces herself on him and he's terrified. It rolls off the tongue. She's awful. Like, she's really awful. And so it's it's such a surprise that she is so sympathetic and so sensitive and so kind and so understanding and so willing to listen to him. And he opens up in a way like this is episode 17 and he hasn't had that much of a chance to open up about himself and his history and we learn a lot about him and what he's like and why he is the way he is. And she's such a good listener and so able to kind of understand and sympathise with him that I actually found those scenes incredibly moving, like really quite moving. They really are. The bit where she, and we will get there, she shows him her wig. That sequence is unbelievably moving and one last quote from Pillar. He says those scenes in the lift will be spoken about for a long time. He goes, I'm not sure about the rest, but those will be. I told a couple of people that we were doing this episode this week. I just said the forsaken. And they went, oh my god, Mrs. Troy's wig. And they just knew it straight away. So that bit really stuck in people. And it's just how I also found really moving the bit where they're talking about parties and he says how much he hates parties. And then she goes, you know what, come to one of mine. I'm going to make sure everyone's there to look after you. She's just so generous with it. Yeah. Remember, he's narrating a party where he's forced to do party tricks for the amusement of the other guests. And she doesn't say, I'll make sure everyone looks after you. She says, I'll make sure they're there to entertain you. And like, it's so warm. It's so good. Like, she's just tremendous. And they've really landed on what she's good at because she's auntie-made. she? Yeah. Like, she's Auntie Maime. She's really funny. She's really big. She's shockingly bad and manhunt is hugely embarrassing. We get some of that hair. We do get a bit of D. The big auntie maime thing, which I think is at its height in cost of living. Like, she's really good at that. She's really, like, I think that's actually quite a fun episode. It's not, you know, it's pretty thin. Oh, we do that one. Oh, you are. It's really fun. She's really fun in it. And then what they start to do is they start to give her, they do start to give her proper acting job. So even half of life. you remember that? Well, so Dark Page is not yet. It's coming after this episode. So she'll go back to the Enterprise for Dark Page. But before that, she did half her life with David Ogden Steers remember that? And Michelle Forbes. that's some proper acting from her. And Dark Page is her, but she's grieving and she's heartbroken and stuff. And like she's great at that. She's really good at that. But what I really like here is that they don't put her through the ringer. She's kind of in control the whole time, and we just get to see what a kind, thoughtful, and empathetic person she is. and it's wonderful They've grown her up though, right? Because they do take her on her own terms here. She's still sexually voracious and, you know, extremely confident in her pursuit of men. And specifically Odo, when she says, I've never been with a shapeshifter, you know. I mean, we were all thinking it, right? Let's be honest. But you think back to Manhunt, where she was so childishly characterised here, there's such maturity in how she's characterised in that lift. Yeah, they just got it. And there should have been more of her, I think. This Mrs. Troy. It took a little while to get here. And so we had to go through haven and bullshit like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. You see, like Renee's older than the rest of the cast, isn't he? Like he's a fair bit older. And I actually think the 2 of them, like the 2 of them are, you know, I don't know, are they a similar age? like they're certainly, I don't suspect so, yes. Yeah, yeah. Although you can't tell with Miguel because she dresses so sexy, so young in this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She brings her tits in one scene and then some. She does. And obviously Renee's slathered in a layer of sort of featureless latex, so it's hard to tell as well. But, you know, the 2 of them older and coming to a romance late in life, I think is actually really nice. And like I said, I was kind of a bit heartbroken by the Muse because it's clear that Odo is in love with her at the end of that episode. And it's clear at the end of this episode that he's heading that way. Do you know, Cisco says to him at some point early on, you know why not just let yourself be caught? Why don't you try it? Why don't you let yourself be caught? And he rules it out. I can't help you, Odo. He goes. Yeah. But he is caught. I think at the end of the episode, Renee's performance makes it quite clear that he has been core at the end. And so this is, you know, one of Deep Space Nine's dead ends, one of its roads not taken. And I'm a bit sad about that because I think it would have been very nice. And I love Kira and Odo together. I think they're great, but I think this would have been special as well. I suspect it's for 2 reasons. One, it's because the Muse did not go down well with either the audience or the creative team. So I think maybe they thought more, maybe we're spent here with Mrs. Troy. Two, Major L Barrett was quite vocal that she did not like the direction that the show went in when it started getting war heavy because that's not what Gene would have wanted. So maybe they sort of parted terms amicably, but for the best. Yeah. But for whatever reason, what they did do. And like we're ignoring fascinations because I haven't seen it for a while and I gather it's embarrassing. I mean, it's embarrassing. It was fabulous as well, though. They definitely follow it up on lower decks in an episode that I think is pretty great. The exchange, you're not at all what I expected. And then saying, no one's ever paid me a greater compliment. Yes, isn't that nice? That almost brought me to tears. And you know me. I'm a tough nut to crack watching TV, but I was sort of sobbing up a bit at that point. Yeah. Yeah, because she gets seen as well in a way that I think is beautiful. And, like, you know, we talk about, and it'll come, the scene where she takes her wig off and it's just her normal hair and it's just Migel's hair. You know, like it's just Magell there and she's beautiful. You know, she's beautiful. She's beautiful when she puts the wig on and the sexy dress and when she's being vampi and over the top. She's beautiful. But when she's just being quiet and honest and understanding and kind, she's equally beautiful in a different way. She says, I look ordinary. I've never cared to be ordinary. Gosh, it's so it's such good writing. You can tell pillar is all over this script. Oh, absolutely he is. He just has a really great way of just getting into the heads of these people, I think. Yeah. Yeah. I think he does a good job with Julian too. I mean, his spot's quite thin and so maybe we'll talk about it while the episode's going. ambassadors of unhappy. But he's trying to give Julian comedy lines to see if that's something that he's capable of doing. And Sid doesn't quite land it. But he does a pretty good job and I think he's quite funny in places in this episode as well. It's so strange, isn't it? I was thinking about the day in the life sort of episodes and I think it's something that T and G rocked as well. Like stuff like day to day, that has like 3 plots in it and like but just what's happening around the ship, you know, Beverly teaching it to dance and loads of fun stuff. I don't know if Voyager could put off an episode like this. No, because the characters aren't as likeable, perhaps. Or it's all mixed, aren't they? If you are focussing on the right characters, maybe they could do it, but I can't even think of a time where they've tried to do a day in the life on Voyager. And I may say something about that cast. Or about the that show's approach as well, that it wants to do high concept things. And I think that what they end up landing on with these day in the life episodes in Deep Space 9 is giving at least one of the plots a kind of clearer, more interesting focus, something that's a bit more science fiction or a bit more about one of the cultures or something like that. Or very funny. Such as the no J consortium, stealth sealing, stembolts. You know, the great river. We've done them all so far. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's right. that's right Well, I mean, I'm ready to be tickled, you? I definitely am. will count us in. Five, four, three, two, one, and we're off. Establishing shop Deep Space nine. That's the most officially interesting thing you're going to see all episode. Oh, no, except for a little bit of CGI towards the end. And so this is starting with the plot, the Julian plot, where what's happened is that there are some ambassadors on board the station and Cisco has just told Julian he has to look after them. And they're all difficult in sort of different ways. This woman is called Taxco or something. I think she's called Tesco, isn't it? doesn't she say Tesco at the end? I thought it was product placement. It's not text Tesco. She doesn't do another Star Trek, even though she really looks like someone who's played a Star Trek alien quite a lot. The Bolian, of course, you'll recognise from Star Trek 1st contact because he's Admiral Hayes. and he's in he's in 2 more Voyager episodes as Admiral Hayes as well. Um, the Vulcan... The Vulcan is a Croller from the episode 1st contact, the conservative guy from 1st contact, the episode. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And he's also in false prophets and he's a Vulcan doctor in stigma. So we've actually seen him already on USTP. I know there, this is pure sitcom, right? But all 3 of these ambassadors. I've met somebody with all of their eccentricities. The woman that's never happy, the man that's always trying to give advice or knows a better way of doing things. And then the one that always asks questions, you know, even though you want to go home early. I recognise all these people. I think the woman's my favourite though. She's really funny. Her thing about the disgusting Ferengi sex program. I have to sleep one more night with those Cardassian gargoyles facing me from the bed. Oh, here's Mrs. Troy. And so it turns out that Mrs. Troy is one of the ambassadors although she'll be hived off into her own plot. I like the fact that she accessorises to the wig. I never wear this hair without it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So they're giving Julian these sort of English sitcom lines where he's kind of like baffled and slightly harried and pompous posh English guy. And I think he's doing quite much more likely. in series one like that than he is when he's being arrogant and yeah, everyone's sort of rubbling their eyes at him all the time. Oh I love this. I know where it hurts the most, you little troll. She's advocating strip searching everyone in the bar, which I would have loved to have seen attempted. Oh yes, please. I mean, will you take a look at her? She looks so gorgeous doesn't she? She's fabulous, isn't she? And so in comes Odo and meets her for the 1st time. Um, and like, he obviously just solves the problem immediately because he's Odo, and of course, he does. I think she's a bit too impressed given he just grabs older the 1st person and goes, yeah, it's you. empty out your pockets. No, so he does, he does know something. Like he, so he, she's trying to detect guilt, but she can't in great betasoid tradition. Beta souls cannot read Ferengi's. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so he uses that as a clue to work out who it is who's actually stolen it. Odo, of course, manages to throw in an insult to Quark while sticking up for him. But he takes it as a compliment. Thank you very much. I'm sorry, Admiral Satay, but your costumes are nothing to Mrs Troy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Look at all the accessories on. flowers and all sorts bouncing off it. Do we see these aliens ever again? No. Doctrarians or whatever they're called. Presumably, presumably they have the head in a cupboard somewhere and they bring it out at some other point. So, Nathan, have a look. Can you see the poles wobbling behind them? They haven't fixed that one down from me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that was supposed to be robust metal, you know, those pulse. Yeah, maybe. This is what I say to you on every podcast. How perfectly brilliant are you? So she's intrigued and this is, you know, my thing where we end on the most important line of the episode. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And so I want to know everything there is to know about your security chief. Yeah, and so what it looks like is it's going to be a sort of sort of sex comedy thing where she's inappropriate and she's chasing after... You could almost be rolling your eyes at this point going, Yeah we've done this with Picard. We know this goes. Nulling us into our full sense of security. Hence why Odo says you're not at all what I expected because the plot was heading towards doing manhunt again, I think. Oh, and I just love hanging out in Quarks, you know. Any episode that opens up in the bar is wonderful for me. I mean, I think it's, it's, I talked to you before, didn't I, about how she was denied that role on the original series, originally and then took the consolation prize? I just think now there's what? 15, maybe Mrs. Troy episodes across TNG and DS9. There's quite a lot. Like I feel... They gave back to her. I think Gene, you know, said you were hard done by and, you know you deserve a big role. I think she's somebody. I do think she was divisive to start off with only because she was so over the top in those early TNG episodes. Fuck me. Like Q, she brings a bit of life to that ship. Every time she turns up. Yeah. It's a little bit like you, isn't it? Like, you is stiff and awkward as we observed last time, you know in the 1st couple of episodes that he's in, in encounter at Farpoint and in Hyde and Q. you know it's a strange performance. And it takes them a while to write to Majel strengths as well. This does also prove as well you don't need Deanna with Mrs. Troy for her to work in an episode because it's the 1st time it's happened. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Although I do love their I love their chemistry, that's whoever. It's pretty great, isn't it? I just love that, you know, ship's councillor's log. My mother is on board. You can figure it out, roll it on. It's just saying it. Right. I thought I was in for a bit of trouble with this C plot with the puppy because there's so much techno babble, isn't there? Yeah, yeah. I don't think this is very good and it's resolved by. It's a plot where everything is just them talking in ops, you know. The, the, like trapping Odo in the lift and then the explosion in the habitat ring, those are both, um, you know, those are both part of this plot, but they're primarily, you know, things to motivate the other plot. But otherwise we're just standing around talking. This Bajoran woman should have been Nila from in, now they do bring in Nila early. So do you remember, she's the one that tries to assassinate Brile and they introduce her in duet and then she's established for in the hands of a prophet. So they do a sort of there's 2 episodes. But there's a Bajoran here. Man, they just weren't thinking ahead enough. Like they should have done... So she was proper. I mean, she's good. This is her only episode, isn't it? So she's Anara and she's here to give O'Brien someone to talk to. They just look so like, I mean, the uniform and the hair. Come on, let them look pressy. I mean, she's probably quite a pretty woman. Look at her. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's pretty plain, isn't it? It's very, like, she kind of fades into the Cardassian gray walls a bit in that... I've been looking at the historical records of the Starship Discovery and everyone's so sexy on that. What happened? Why do we all look so terrible? Yeah, that's right. 100 years ago. Now, this is something we've done with O'Brien a bit where he's very particular about his work and if it isn't working to peak efficiency. He has a bit of meltdown. I do like Cisco coming in and going, oh, sounds fine, shit. you know, it's working. Who cares, you know? Except that he walks that back because he realises that if it matters to O'Brien, then it matters. And so he's initially dismissive, but then he decides to actually say look, you need to do what you need to do. And I thought that that was pretty good. I think, like if this plot has any value at all, It's mostly because it gives us the chance to see Colin do some acting. What's the scope does here? He sees the ambassadors. He turns around with a massive sigh and then passes a grin on his face and turns around and says, oh, hello, everyone. The amount of times I do that at work when I was like, oh, God. Why? How can I? That was pretty great, wasn't it? That was absolutely performative stuff from Avery. It's just like no one is going to be in any doubt about what I'm feeling here. It was pretty good. But I totally believe, you know, when he says, Curzon used to give me these dreadful assignments, you know, and I used to do them. Now I'm giving them to you because I'm in charge. Well, let me tell you, as a manager, I used to sometimes make colleagues do things that I used to have to do all the time. But, but when he justifies himself, he says, you know, you could make connections here, it might be good one day to have a federation ambassador on your side. And of course, the outcome of this plot is that he ends up with 3 federation ambassadors who are impressed by him and grateful to him. And so it does work out the way that Cisco says... That's where he's going. Right. a full conclusion. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There is one surprise in one of the plots, but it ain't that one. No, yeah. That, I think there is a surprise in the way that that plot's told. Like it makes a choice, which I think is actually pretty good. It's probably a money saving. Is that Romulan quite as gray as he is? He doesn't look well, does he? He's a Vulcan. He doesn't care. Well, he does he does look quite ill. He does. Oh, look at Kira. Kira's season one hair. my god. It's American lady hair, but she definitely has. Fluffy, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, what maybe die as well was Bolian going, oh, is that it about the world? I thought it was going to be more impressive than Matt. More impressive special effect than that? Julian should have gone, walk, I watch Babylon 5 then. There's really shit. That's right We paid a lot of money for that, and we will see it 500 times during the run of this show. Why does Cisco arranged for the meeting at 4 o'clock in the morning? I don't know. I was thinking that too. I think he's thinking, nah, they won't get out for that. They won't come. Yeah they'll cancel. Straight out the door going. No, I'm not setting the alarm for half free. Jesus Christ. That's right. Oh my god, here we go. Odo's doing his work, tracking intergalactic malefactors. In comes Mrs. Troy. It's the Australian series, isn't it? This costume. Oh my word. I mean, so do you know what it reminded me of? It reminds me of one of Deanna's costumes in Man of the People. It is, isn't it? Is it the same one? I don't know, but it's that sort of thing where it's mostly kind of, you know, like mesh with things strategically covering her breasts. I might do a comparison afterwards, you know. I would make that the same costume. Oh, she looks smoking hot in it. That's all I'm going to say. She looks great. And the red hair. And, you know, just the idea too that we established, because she doesn't wear coloured wigs, like when she turns up next time in Dark Page, and obviously that would be ridiculous because that's a more dramatic role. But it's not established that she's wearing a wig in the show except in that 1st scene where she says when I wear this hair. And so they're establishing the wig because it's important at the highlight, you know, at the climax of the episode. These lines, Nathan. Oh my god. Oh, no. It has a lyrical quality to it. And then she leans into him. It rolls off the tongue. I hear you're a shapeshifter, yes. I've never been with a shapeshifter. And it goes, bin with? What do you mean? What you mean? It is funny, isn't it? It's genuine. Like, in a way that, you know, when Picard was resisting her. That just wasn't funny at all. No. No, and I think why is it? Is it because Odo's a little bit more... He's more innocent and more serious and he's a sitcom character in a sense as well. You know, Picard is, is just, you know, he's sick of her or annoyed by her or whereas Odo's feeling properly threatened. I like her reaction to, he flees and she just smiles. Yeah, she's she's on the hunt. right? right? I've got your scent now, mate. That's right. And that's where we think this is going, obviously. Look at that high angle shot of Ops. It's just so much more interesting to look at than the Enterprise Bridge, I think. It is, I think. I just wish it wasn't quite as gray as it was, you know. They do seem to think gray is a very pretty colour, in 90s true. I don't know what some reason. what the fucking archer's doing there too. I think that's kind of terrible. I suppose it's something, but does look a bit terrible. I just like the levels because it means they can shoot up and down and they can just do more injuries. I kind of like the sense that you don't really get a proper sense of the layout of ops. Like, presumably you do if you watch it all the time, but, you know, there's lots of different interesting shots. You know, there's things happening in the background and stuff. It's not like, you know, those terrible high shots of the enterprise bridge, which looks so bad. I'm starting to love, you know, these scenes where Odo comes to visit Cisco. Do you remember his way when they were singing together? And now in this one. Have you ever thought about letting Mrs. Troy catch you? Odo? Yeah, well, like I said, and I think I only realised it when I was saying it just now, she does catch him. I think that scene is really good. And it's a good bit of advice from him too. let yourself go. He goes, well, she's extremely grateful. What's wrong with that? The manner of which she shows her gratitude expresses her gratitude. Oh, fuck this, like a Winoni trace hound. All right. That's a very unflattering simile. When Cisco smiles and talks about romance. Do you remember when he greeted Cassidy at the airlock with the flowers in the baseball episode? Man, he's so when he's in love and talking about love. wonderful. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, the makeup's struggling against Renee doing all these facial expressions, isn't it? I really like the fact as well that he's not, obviously, not conventionally handsome Odo, and that doesn't bother Mrs. Troy one bit. No, I mean, she seems to like him because he's very competent and very, well, she says something about opposites attracting as well you know, like, remember Timmerson? Remember David Ogden Steers's character in Half a Life, who's a sort of very bashful, very shy scientist. Michael Ansara in the Muse. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Who else has she gone after? Well, Damon Bach. Jesus Christ. She ain't fussy. But my point there is like she doesn't always, you're thinking TNG. Picard because he's the man at the top, right? Well, then that would be Cisco as you'd go for here, but yeah yeah. Something about Odo interests her. Yes, yeah. And I think that's genuinely true as well because like she gets him to open up in a way that he doesn't open up to anyone. Like, I don't, you know, like, I can't remember how much we know about Odo by this point, but I'm guessing the stuff. Yeah, hardly anything, right? I mean, there's one point where I feel as if they're pointing forward to the search where it goes, how many of your people are there? Oh, I'm the only one so far. He goes at one more game? They're hanging on to that plot, Fred, for an important moment. So we've had, is it Vortex, the one where we find out? Yeah, that's no, that's mid-season. Yeah, that is... And then there's a man alone. Like that's another Odo one that's like episode 2 or 3 or something. Dismal episode. That's where all the Bajorans turn on him because he used to work for the Cardassians. for the Cardassian. But it's really hackney. Whereas Vortex is actually quite touching. He helps a criminal escape in his daughter at the end. Yeah, it's really enough. He holds the little pendant, which is a bit like a shapeshifter and he goes, sorry. Just watch the pieces where he comes out of the lift looking both ways and then confidently strides off and she spots him immediately and he tries to run back in. I've always wanted to see an upper pylon. She goes, I love that line. I love that line so much. Nathan, I might use that on the old bloke, you know. I have a pile on 3 and she like knocks on the door and then so funny. Oh, look at this special effect show. The special effect. Now, it strikes me that that's pretty fucking dangerous, right? I've been caught in the water if you lean on the wall. That's right. Don't touch that wall. Now remember, Nathan. The station was in a state of disrepair. Maybe the Kardashians destroyed the doors, you know, before they left. But I mean, those turbo lifts are kind of, you know, they're like a little platform with a railing rather than an enclosed capsule. So we never see it from this point of view, but it does seem like that is kind of dangerous. I can even remember watching for the 1st time where they get stuck in the neck thinking, where is this going? What is happening in this episode? And then when it all just unflowers, it's so beautiful. Yeah it's really good. Heroes in full on administrator mode in this episode. She's showing no character whatsoever, just being very good at her job. Oh, yeah, she's doing her job. Dax gets the old line, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, again, you know, we'll just beam you out. it'll be fine. They'll turn up here on the transporter pad that's on top of the turbo lifting ops. you know nothing happens. She goes to Odo alone at last. Suddenly there's this dramatic close-up on Renee's face looking really shocked. Do you like a bit as well, where Kira goes, now don't try shapeshift out of there. There's electric bolts all around it, all right? And then Michelle goes, yeah, besides, it'd be rude. Kira goes, what was that? Odo is forced to say it. It'll be ruse, all right? Yeah, yeah. I mean, I actually quite like that, though. I think that, you know, it's him kind of actually realising that you know, he's, even though this is an unwanted social situation it is a social situation, he just has to be knives. Nice, you know, like he can't be grumpy. I mean, it's so controlled. I don't think we've established that 16 hours. He has to hold his shape for until this episode. I think for the purposes of this episode. But going forward, it's one of those things where they're going right, well, we've made that decision now. That's that's Odo now. Oh, I thought that that was known. Like, I thought that, you know, that's part of his character bio. I could be wrong. I wonder if it's in my... Oh, there is... Yeah. I'll have a look. I've got to do some research. I should have done it before really. Do you know what struck me as the use of the word pale to describe his bucket? Like they call it, call it a pail, which is what Americans call a bucket, and I'd forgotten that that was the word. I like, um, in a minute, Rico, you know, every 16 hours, I turn into a liquid and she just goes, I can swim. I love that line. That's... I know what she wants to do with him, essentially. I want to know. I just imagine she's got quite a big imagination. I'll just say. But she's really good in this too, isn't she? Like, we get to rule out that there's danger and she's not going to be a panicky idiot. Like, we'll just rule that out. This is not going to be about we're trapped in a lift and we're going to suffocate or anything like that. It is the only problem is the kind of social situation. They're comic timing is perfect as well because in this bit, they do a very quick back and forth quietly, quietly. Of course. You know, and it's just perfectly paced. She's like instantly doing bored acting within like about 3 seconds. You know, I've always been attracted to quiet, man. I haven't, actually. They're usually all with our mouse. But he just turns to her and shuts her up. Doesn't she go, oh, sorry. I can't do it. No, it would be me to you. I can't be quiet. I'm sorry. Sorry. I've got to talk. And then she starts talking about that miserable menache atois episode, hasn't she? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's and I wonder why she does that. too. I don't know. We're still trying to pull in the TNG crowds, I think. Yeah, maybe that's it. Maybe that's it. But what's the character reason for her retelling that episode there? She can't be quiet, but she doesn't really want to reveal anything very much about herself. So it's it's just small talk. Um, but this where he sits down next to her and starts talking to her. Look it's so nice, isn't it? I like, I just love the fact that, you know, we've always think of a sort of rampant older lady, yeah. But actually making connections with people is as important to her. And that's what this episode proves. Yeah, yeah. Well, I think, you know, like it leans into the idea that she's an empath. You know, she's an empath and what she is here is not just empathic, but empathetic, she's kind and she wants to know what it's like and she imagines how he feels and stuff. When I was younger, you know, I think I used to be this person going on about all the people I'd had it off with. And I can still see the faces of people like Odo rolling their eyes going, 0 my God. There's me going, oh, at 1st it was just a matter of this uncontrollable lust for me. That was perfectly real. She just said it was all a matter of expediency when I made love to him. Yeah, yeah, she admits to having sex with him in that episode. Shameless woman. And then Odo goes, I was wondering how many volts were going through that circuit. Because I was going throw myself at it. Oh, this is a great scene as well where Bashir's like, please help me, sir. I can't handle these ambassadors anymore. What is that bizarre piece of art there on that? I know. Well, we haven't got the clock yet. comes next episode. Oh, yes. The whole reason, the episode exists. ambassadors of unhappy. Yeah, look, Cisco is really amused by it all. All of us have had these assignments, doctor. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It would have been quite amusing if he'd punch one of them, I think, you know. Yeah, but he does tell him not to do that, doesn't he? So, so CSco punched one of them. Yeah. Oh, what was he? He was been sleazy with an ensign, wasn't he? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it seems to be stronger than that over his attempt to coax a young ensign to his quarters against her will. Yeah, but don't hit one of them, doctor. I love that line too. I'm not nearly as understanding as Curzon was. Could you imagine how hot it would be to have Avery Brooks's voice? Oh, no, it's beautiful. Oh no, here we go. Back to the techno babble. I do like this, though. He goes, you know, listen to the computer's attitude. It doesn't sound right, does it? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So we didn't sort of get that, but initially the computer's a little bit talk, you know, has opinions and refuses to do things and talks back. And in that earlier scene, he tries to shut something down manually after the computer refuses to do it. And then the computer refuses to allow him to even do it manually. Well, he objects, doesn't he? Because the Cardassian systems allows a 20% error, right, doesn't it? And he goes, so 20%. That's unacceptable. That's too much. I think the Federation, they're a bit wimpy though. Do you not remember that episode of TNG where the person goes, you have a 2nd backup system? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I have to say none of this stuff about the computer, none of the, none of it interests me at all. I'm just like, but there is absolutely a Star Trek audience for this stuff. So fair. I mean, I'm interested in computers and I'm interested in technobabble and I thought this was all really quite boring. But, um, and it sort of seemed like a sort of a less fun dry run of what happens on discovery with Zora. Remember the episode that we did where Zora attained sentience and they have to find some way of dealing with her now that she's a member of the crew with, you know, opinions and stuff. It's a less fun version of civil defence when the computer turns on them and tries to shoot the long episode. So good. Maybe that's the puppy getting his revenge. You kept me locked up too long, O'Brien. No, it's definitely that's definitely in gull. You can, isn't it? Oh, and you know, did you see what they were doing in this episode? The 90s trek metaphors. It's like dancing a waltz with this one. But normally, you know, it's like doing the tarantella or something. Oh, for God's sake. Yeah, you make it sound like a child. It's more like a puppy, blah, blah, blah. Can we go back to the lift, please? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, even the probe isn't that interesting to look at, is it? No, not at all. That's got a reasonable shot. Well, the station shot of the station from what we've seen. Oh boy. Yeah, so everyone get around the table in ops to talk about this boring plot now. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, Nathan, it all comes down to how we define a life form really. Yeah, let's talk about that for a while. Biological life mechanical life, you know. I mean, this is the most Star Treky of all the plots. Well, yeah, except remember that I think that normally on TNG at least, the, the, the technobabble is just there to give the impression that they're competent people doing a technological thing that the audience can't understand. But here they're constructing this plot out of technobabble. And it's a thing that we'll later say on Voyager done vastly worse than this. They will ditch completely, though. Come like season 4 where they realise it is all about the characters. There are so, like, the setup album doesn't vanish. It's still Star Trek. It's reduced to an absolute. I mean, I think of stuff we watch in series 7, change the face of evil. There's no technobabble in it at all, you know? No. But I mean, here this is a space problem that's completely just in dialogue. You know, you've got some, the shot of the probe or whatever, but everything is just described in a series of messenger speeches. And, you know, think about when the computer goes crazy in TNG or even in that Voyager episode. Remember the Voyager episode where the computer goes crazy and Janeway's coffee is replicated before the cup is replicated? That stuff. And, you know, like, you know, the computer starts playing loud music on the bridge in TNG or whatever, like fun things when the computer goes wrong. This is all very boring things when the computer goes wrong. How does Karen know he sleeps in a bucket? That's not something I would tell everybody. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I mean, you know, we all sleep in something. You'd have to say to people, if Joe doesn't get back to his hovel in time, but... It'll be horribly wrong. But I mean, he needs she needs to know in order to kind of create this tension so that we know. So, you know, she needs to, you know, she needs us to know. And so because Odo's not going to tell Waxana, that's going to be a big moment, we need to know that there's a, you know, like a clock running out. 3 scenes with the computer plot on the trot is too much. There should only be. Well, they should be going, A, B, C, rather than just having 3 scenes of the computer plot, right in the heart of the episode, the most boring plot of all. Thank God, the ambassadors of unhappy are back. I mean, there was an ad break in the middle of that sequence, to be fair. Oh, there was? Oh, I didn't get the end sting music. that's right. How would I possibly know? How do we know to get up and get a wee in the middle of the episode? Oh, look, we're going back to the upper pylons. Hurrah. Yes, I love a good upper pylon. But enough about me. So she's been talking all through the ad break and through those previous scenes. Who goes, I'm a private man. She goes, yeah, it's funny. always been attracted to private men of course Oh, now she starts asking him about his head. This is where this is just gorgeous. Yeah, yeah. And he opens up about how he was exploited. Yes. And she sees a way in then, doesn't she? She sees a way interconnect with him. But I don't think it's even that. I think that she starts to feel feel for him. Like she really starts to kind of, she hears the details of what being brought up in a laboratory might be like, and she imagines it, and she feels empathy for him. You know, like, I don't think she's being calculated. can't believe that he uses the word assigned. Yeah, you know, rather than like adopted. She goes, is that how you grew up in a laboratory? And she, like, she's now, she's not on. She's not being big, she's not trying to be funny. She's being genuine and she's wonderful when she drops that. Like the Auntie Maim thing is really fun and really funny. She's awesome, but when she's really being understanding, and he's caught off guard by it, you know, like he doesn't clam up, he keeps going to... Because you just expect her to be. So when she does bring it down like this. is more touching as a result. Yeah, that's why that scene in Odo's office is so over the top why she's being why she's being so forceful. She grabs his arm in a minute as well, which, yeah, look, when she sees that he's in pain. She just holds his arm gently. She's beautiful, isn't she? Just that concern. Now she's properly empathising. I can't imagine what it would have been like to grow up like that. And and, you know, we don't have to talk about this. She was she was refusing to allow there to be no conversation, but now she's saying, you don't have to talk about it. And he says, yes, no, I want to. And the way he plays these lines as well. You know, I hate parties. Because they were just so awful for him. Oh, I love all this stuff. Yeah, yeah, it's terrific, isn't it? It's really good. You know when I say like characters am I in? We're Star Trek, a lot of the Take the Bad Way. really the strange new wealth. This is the stuff I love. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, but, you know, like it's 2 beautiful performances from 2 very, very experienced actors as well, which I think is really enjoyable. And then you, I, you know, I would almost believe this would be the end of this plot like this is touching enough, but then it comes to the bit where he's got his back turned. He won't look at her. It's a private matter. Oh my god, it just gets better and better these days. Yeah, yeah, it's really good. It is really good. Oh, oh, oh. This is what I'm like an hour before bed. Boy, they struck gold with Renee, didn't they? They did, I mean. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean he's brilliant, isn't he? I mean, he's one of the best things about the show and even acting under that huge lump of latex that they've put on his side. Makes you feel for him. Yeah. Time and time again. Berman says on the memory alpha page that Renee's like one of his favourite actors across all of Trek. I think it's just because he's so fucking reliable, you know? Yeah, yeah. No, he's good. I mean, he's just been doing it for a long time. All right. So we're opening the drawer so we can take some isolinear rods out of the computer. Oh, boring. This is the sort of bullshit we did this. Why we know this? Well, because they're all trying to make the computer do lots of things and they're taking sort of the power circuits out at the same time, so it has a bit of a breakdown. or something. So these are the equivalent of the isolinear chips on Star Trek on the Enterprise. They have isolinear rods in these little drawers. Remember isolinear chips in the slots that they have in in Omni Enterprise on a Federation ship? They just wouldn't waste time doing anything this boring in the last 3 seasons of Dig Space 9. You know, this is definitely a let's pad out this episode. Yeah. So they're they're kind of pulling the memory out of the computer and launching Microsoft Office and stuff at the same time, you know, opening lots of tabs. It's just like a thut of sparks, isn't it? or anything? No, it's a computer. I mean, really, I don't think you want it firing rocks at you just because you they normally do, don't they? All the consoles? tabs in chrome. I thought that was quite nicely done right. You got the explosion heading towards the camera and then they focus on the actors and just throw in a couple of flames, yeah? And then what happens is we don't see them after this until they're rescued. And so that plot actually goes away. We see, so we see this. But basically, basically after it's established that he can't get out. We don't see them again. quickly get get Tesco in the Jeffrey Stube or whatever her name is. Oh, that, that flaming corridor. She looks quite aggressive, doesn't it? They like doing stuff with flames towards the end. Do you not remember if wishes were horses, where that flaming man comes running towards Kira? Do you remember that? Oh, and there's a little special effects shot here as well, where Kira shoots the door and you see the glass. I clearly glass, but I think it's supposed to be geranium. Oh, well, we're going to need a bipolar torch to get through it. It's clearly glass. OMG. Oh, Brian's bored of his own plot, look. He goes, yeah, that's right. That's right. I could potentially exciting plot with fire. I could have been in the lift with Mrs. Troy. Oh, no, we didn't want to see that. Although, to be fair, Column is very reliable actor as well. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Oh, here we go. We doing the metaphoric again. I had a puppy once, you know. He shut him up. He goes crazy. I thought you'd empathise with some of this stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, particularly since I'm having to get up every few seconds and let the dog in and out of this room where we're recording. Don't worry, I've got you back, all right? I can monologue bullshit. Although immediately with this subplot is difficult. It's not giving us very much, is it? It's funny. We're very animated when Mrs. Troy comes back. the rest of the time. We're like, oh, what the hell do we say now? Do you see how just all of this is done through dialogue? And it's just dialogue about the space problem. It's a really boring space problem. There's no visuals that accompany it. Oh, we're back in the lift, Wayne. I'll show. What I really appreciate here as well. Like, it's as much about the acting as it is the dialogue. But the dialogue is really good. Like, it's on the nose. it's telling you what they're feeling it is good dialogue. Oh, no. And, and, Like, she says, you know, you don't need to be embarrassed or ashamed or something. And he says, no, no, I'm not, but this is private. I think I think maybe he is, but he shouldn't be. You know, this is just, you know, yeah, he does say I'm not ashamed. I'm inclined to believe that. I'm not ashamed. It's just a private matter. I really like as well the, like, they just, she just puts the wig into frame. With no explanation. And you were sort of going, what, what? But Nick, this is us seeing him for the 1st time. It's that shot where we see him liquefying and then she puts the wig into frame. Of that shot, there's no cart. We just get to see him. But like, and then and look how beautiful she is. That smile and just... No one has ever seen me like this. We certainly haven't, have we? No, no, of course we haven't. He tries to be nice. It looks fine. It looks ordinary, all right? Oh, even we non-shapeshifters have to change ourselves every once in a while. I could be on the nose, but they play it. beautifully. But it's it's not the dialogue. It is really her. Oh, that too. You're not what I expected. And look at her smile. No one's ever paid me a greater compliment. It's just beautiful. The 2 of them, like she's acting against Renee with that fucking chocolate sauce. Is she understands right what Star Trek's really about? I ain't a spaceship and all that bullshit. Yeah, yeah. I'll take care of you. love that line. And he melts in a lap. Oh, come on. That's actually quite a nice effect. That's not too bad. Yeah, it's terrible. But it's the best we could do. I mean, I find those Kurtsman shapeshifters. That's really ugly goo. That is quite a pleasant. It looks different in discovery from how it does in Picard, but in Picard, it looks like raw chicken. Like it's really, it's hugely horrible, isn't it? We're cold enough. Odo turning into raw chicken whilst he's seducing the knock. can we? Oh, dear. Oh, back to the computer plot again. Okay. Maybe, maybe, okay, maybe I've remembered it wrong. It is really quite dull. Yeah, no, it's super boring. It's sort of nothing. And so what they've done is they've created a sub-program. They've put the puppy in that and then they've rerouted all of the data so that it goes through that program so that it still feels like it's having attention paid to it or something. Literally, the only difference we see in the station is the lights come on. The lights come back on. Oh, the fire suppression system comes back on in the other room too. Oh, look at all those tubes and things hanging from the ceiling. Oh, there's been a big proper explosion, I think. Oh my god, is Tesco all right? So, she's spelled T-A-X-C-O. Tech-Texco. Oh, I can see why I heard Tesco. Yeah, they're far from my mind. Texaco. Oh, I used to live by a Texico garage, you know. Yeah, there you go. one of those. So now he's got 3 ambassadors he can call on. Maybe, you know, when the truth comes out about his genetic engineering. He called in a few favours. Yeah, Tesco. But I love how she calls him Julian. And, you know, when she just says, please, Julian, and a normal voice, where she's not being brissy. Like, it's sort of a great relief and it's really good. Like it really sells how appreciative they are, which is just dropped all that shit about her. Yeah. He's definitely doing comedy Vulcan there, isn't it? The doctor, absolutely. Was remarkably efficient, straightening up his uniform. All right, mate, you know. The Big Bang Theory awaits. Oh, this line here is just something about beautifully. He goes, well, your picnic. didn't have your picnic. She goes, the best thing about picnic, Odo, is the company. It's wonderful, isn't it? But look at the warmth. like, and it's Odo. When when she leaves or the last shot with Odo, where he just smiles slightly, which almost never happens and probably at this point hasn't happened before. Your sensitivity and discretion. are appreciated. After that 1st scene, he says your sensitivity and discretion. It's wonderful. She gets in one more reference, though, next time I'll see you Nathan, you know, I'll give you something to appreciate. But she means it and he likes it. Look at his reaction when she leaves. Look at that. It's wonderful. You're right. That is a dead end, perhaps I should have. It doesn't go anywhere. They try it once more and then they decide not to go with it. Double the salary mature if you'll just dismiss your issues about the war. I think she did all right, Mitchell, you know. Good for her. Did she get shot into space like him? I can't remember, maybe. Keep it off the furniture. I thought was a good line because it's because I was actually laughing out loud for a second. Maybe it was just relief that there was some fun happening in that plot where O'Brien's going, can we keep him? Can we keep him? Can we keep him? you know? So I said to you, it was quite interesting to see what they kept and what they dropped, what they dropped was plots like that C plot, which are very, very sort of TNG style plots of techno babble heavy about the nuts and bolts of the ship strokes station. What they learn to keep is all of this sort of intense character work and they take that forward. Yeah, I mean, you know, like Star Trek, the Next Generation would never do a plot like that C plot, though. That's really nothing because what Star Trek the Next Generation is, is about plots like that, but they have to be plots like that that have enough going on to make this the episode where X happens. Do you know what I mean? There's no Star Trek, the Next Generation, where the episode where something goes wrong with the computer, and then we talk about it quite a lot, and then we fix it by talking about it, and then we get on with our lives. Like they would never do that. It has to be kind of more because it's, that's going to be the central plot of a TNG episode. So there's got to be more to it than that. What DS 9 has, though, is the sort of in-built character backstories where very touching moments are, are they almost like built into the characters as they evolve and as they learn more about themselves, you know, Kira going from terrorists to, you know, administrator, Odo finding his people as he goes along. The things we learn about everybody. I just think they really, they really got the characters right from the off on DSI. They weren't all fully formed with the actors, but they kind of they got them to a point where, I don't know, moments like that in the lift, they just came every other episode and that's a difference between this and TNG as well because the characters just aren't there in TNG. Like we've said a 1000000 times, it's the cast more than the characters. Yeah. I think, though, that scene in the lift at this early stage when Odo is just, you know, a paragraph length entry in the show Bible. We don't know who he is yet or who his people are yet. And I don't think the writers know that either. Then what you really have is let's get Michelle and the most experienced actor in the cast together in the lift and do something that they're both going to be really good at. And I think, you know, that backstory, which later gets followed up. I mean, we meet the scientists, don't we, with Odo's hair a bit later and learn about what that upbringing was like. But that upbringing is just created for the purpose of this episode, isn't it? to give her an in to give her some way of making connection, like you said, the sympathy that she has, her imagination, her ability to imagine what it might have been like to have been brought up like that. You know, all of those things that, um, her sensitivity and discretion, you know. So it isn't quite the characters yet. I think it is putting those 2 people in the lift and giving them fun things to do, giving them something interesting to talk about and that that leads in all sorts of directions. In the sort of ranking of Luaxana Troy episodes, this is pretty high. One, two, I don't know. I mean, I really love cost of living. Costco ways to redo that. I think Half Alive is really good. You know, like half a life's properly good. Dark Page is good in what he's trying to do. It's at that period where... and the execution. It's, you know, that sort of flat TNG season 7 direction. But, you know, like if it hadn't been for Dark Page, we wouldn't have had quite what we had in Nepenthe decades later. you know that's important, I think, in the way they eventually go with Deanna and Riker. Due to the sort of scattershot approach of this podcast of us jumping about all over the place. We're putting together the Mrs. Troy picture and we've seen her at her absolute worst in manhunt. We've seen her at our absolute best here. I can't wait till she pops back again to the podcast. She's wonderful. All right, it's the end of the episode and it's time for us to work out where we're going next. I'm riding high on my choice of tapestry last time, and you, I think, are riding high on your choice of the Forsaken this week. So I'm going to see if I can ruin it all by doing an episode of Star Trek Picard. Oh, well, that's not a given that you're going to write. No it's not a given. I just wanted you to think for a 2nd that I was going to say enterprise again. Well, I always figure that's where you're going. So it turns out that Enterprise is still our kind of 2nd least most covered. Oh, okay. It's most covered series, but, but, um, but you'll be able to itch that rather perverse kink fairly soon then. Yes, I think I probably will have to. All right. So I'm going to select Star Trek Picard. And I'm going to give you a 2nd to do something important for me which is get German. The only way we know anything about... Oh, and the animated series as well. We never know what they are. Okay, I'm ready. All right. And I'm going to choose a random episode of Star Trek Picard. And, ooh, I think I know what this one is. So this is season two, episode six. Yeah. 2 of one. Two of one. I shall give you a little uh precis. As Agnes struggles with an invasive presence inside her mind. The crew attend the party celebrating the Europa Space Station where they must ensure Renee Picard is not manipulated into withdrawing from her destiny. And it has a musical number in it. Oh, salt. Let's do it. Is it Agnes? It's Agnes. Oh, wonderful. It's pretty great. It is pretty great. And of course, the unwelcome presence in her mind is, of course the Borg queen. So it's called 2 of one for that reason because Agnes and the Borg Queen are kind of becoming united. So there's a big cocktail party before the big mission that Renee Picard, who is a young woman who's an astronaut who is going up in this rocket in the 21st century, and it's the mission that's important to ensure that we don't become the confederation in the future. Is this sort of the middle period of the season where it's all just sort of running around a bit, waiting to get to the end of the season. Kind of, but there is a central thing. Like it's said at this party, they all have to go to the party. So they're not all off in their little plots or anything like that. There's a central thing going on. You know, I truly enjoy the stately direction of Jonathan Frakes and the drumhead that we do recently. You know, the cameras stood still and focussed on the actors. Unfortunately, this is a Jonathan Frank's directed Picard episode. So the drones will be zooming around the party. That's what I want to see. I'll take my anti-nausea tablets before pressing play. Excellent. You've been listening to Untitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford and Nathan Bottomley. We're online at Untitled Star Trek project.com, where you can find subscription links and links to our social media accounts. Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Sisrin, and the theme was composed by Cameron Lamb. This episode was recorded on the 17th of June 2025 and released on the 20th of June. We'll see you next time for Star Trek Picard, 2 of one. Oh, I'm sorry doing that. No idea about this one. I'll be going in blind. Well, like, you remember, like, it's so amazing because, so it's like, like April 2022 this episode is, right? So they're showing Picard in sort of February, March, April, 2022. And so Biden's a president. We're midway through Biden's term. And the villains up to this point are ice. Oh, you know, the people who are now kidnapping people off the street and disappearing them in America. They're the villains in this, you know, like 3 years earlier because remember that they pick up Rios is an undocumented immigrant and they take him in a bus and they're going to dump him over the border at some point. Oh, Rios. Yeah, beautiful Rios. Oh, God. Do you know what? I don't know why even bobble looking at the comments on these. Yeah, you keep this in this episode, all right? I don't know why I bother looking at the comments of Jammer's website or any fandom talking about new episodes coming out. listen to this. rolled my eyes over and over for this one. This storyline is fracked. Oh, God, I hated this. Oh, my view on Star Trek Picard is going downhill. Every single one is everyone shitting all over it. So the other thing is, though, every so often, you know, he'll come in and inexplicably say something is really, truly terrible when it's actually kind of great. You know, Gemma does that all the time. And then there'll always be someone going, oh, you know, actually I thought this was okay. And there's someone else are trying to go, yeah, I didn't mind it either. you know, like, so that's quite refreshing. sometimes go the other way. This doesn't look like a popular one to the jammer band anyway. No, but I mean, there's kind of a thing where it's just like if Star Trek isn't doing what we've always done before, then we don't like it, and that's the opposite of what I think. You know, like I... It's a peculiar thing, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. Star Wars fan base is probably worse, though, you know, when those new episodes, but I mean, all of them do it. Like, it's just like the problem isn't that the show has changed that you're not 10 anymore. And really, you know, that's the issue. Who could you be talking about? Yeah, Doctor Who's worth all of the others put together. Jesus Christ. Well, I don't think it is. I think it's endemics throughout the whole thing. And like Star Trek is like that. And, you know, like, do you remember, there's that, there's the thing from Strangely World Series 3 and it was that clip that they released ages and ages ago at a Comic-Con or something like that. And it's the clip where some of the characters get turned into Vulcans. Remember that where Pike... Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Who else? Ahura. And I think, um, uh, Nurse Chapel and maybe someone else. There a horrific reaction to it. Well, people accusing it of racism because like it turned those people into Vulcans and they started behaving like stereotypes. And like, when you do know that they're made up, It's not an actual race. Oh, Nathan, they don't. They don't. And the guy said, no, but they've been used to represent, you know racial difference and to talk about racism. It's just like, yes, but they're made up and they can be used to do something else. It turns out that episode's called 4.5 Vulcans because obviously Spock is the half Falcon and the others are full. A racist title. Guess what? There's no way that what we don't what we, what we learn, we have to learn from this episode, that the true Vulcan is Spock, because it's not about your DNA. It's about how you've grown up and what you've experienced and all of that sort of thing. And he's a Vulcan because he's had the experience of being a Vulcan, not because he's been turned into a Vulcan by their sort of comedy beams or it's an injection or some fucking thing. Don't ask me whether these people think this stuff is real. I've seen the footage of them going to the Star Trek experience you know, where you actually get to go on the Enterprise Bridge and then they step back into reality and go, oh, no, holodeck off when they go outside the building, you know? End program. No, no. And I do, you know what? I have also like watched the Trekkies documentary, you know, and the various sequels that they are. And of course, I was highly amused at that fellow, you know, who wasn't disabled, went down the street in a Captain Pike wheelchair and that fellow that and his mates that go down McDonald's dressed up as Klingons for some reason, and the fellow who decks out his dentist surgery, like the Bridge of the Enterprise, and all this stuff. But you really get a sense of the community and how they're living their life to a set of ideals from Star Trek. So they're sort of living their best life. Yeah. However, there's always going to be a party. Like, I mean, weird people, like, you know, how many hours of this show have we watched and podcasted about? Yeah, but Nathan, it's sort of like 70% hanging with you, 30%. We just chose to talk about Star Trek. Do you know what I mean? And we know it, we think about it. We have opinions about it and stuff. And it, like, for me, like, caring about some media thing, like Doctor Who or Star Trek was what, like, caring enough about that kind of narrative was perhaps more than, you know, doing English at school and stuff. what taught me to be a critic, what taught me to look and at, you know, how techs are constructed and how they work and what they're trying to do. And, you know, thinking about why people are making certain choices in a, in a drama or whatever. And you know, like I studied that stuff at university as well. But, you know, like, I think my 1st love is talking about Doctor Who and why it is the way it is. I think my 1st life is studying television. Yeah, yeah. And the fact is, is the 2 sort of big podcasts I do. So my Doctor Who one and this. It's studying. It's so interesting because it's studying TV that's over 50 years old. So you can look at how it was made then, how it's made now, how it evolved, all the different actors. There's so much to compare and contrast, like, you know, Star Trek and Doctor Who on 2 sides of the pond are like TV in a microcosm right? It's just everything and how much it changed and what works and what doesn't. Um, I'm not saying the fact that they're Star Trek and Doctor Who isn't important. Because, something true, I saw those shows. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it really does allow you to study television. over an extended period. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so I think, you know, like we we bitch about sort of fans being unimaginative or conservative or reactionary or whatever, but like those shows have inspired all sorts of people to be creative and to, you know, make connections and stuff. be scientists. and things like that, you know? Wonderful. Yeah. But fuck those guys, honestly. Yeah, can't you out that bears? The end. Go on. End on that. end on that bit.