Accession

Hey, Joe. Hi. So, this week we're back aboard Deep Space 9 for series 4, episode 17 Accession. And when you talked about it last week, I did remember that that's an episode that happened, but what I didn't remember is that it's one of Jane Spenson's very rare contributions to Star Trek. And we know her, I think, originally from Buffy, just the best Buffy the Vampires. Like people say it's just Whedon, but you check out Jaden Spencer in this episode. She knocks out one zinger after another. She's properly funny and she does great character stuff and she's just a really good thoughtful writer with a great career and she's really, really good. It's such a shame that this is just about the only thing she ever did. She did sell some story ideas. Um, to Star Trek the Next Generation. And the idea for force of nature is hers. Oh boy. Well, it's not a good episode. But I do think the idea is great. because the thing about force of nature is that it threatens the show's ability to tell Star Trek stories. You know, if something happens to subspace and we can't do this anymore, we can't have Star Trek anymore. So the stakes are really high because the stakes affect the audience at home. She wouldn't have ruined it with a load of technobabble though. She should have put in a cause. You can buy this story, but I'm writing it, you know? And it would have been full of great humour and wonderful character moments. Yeah, which that episode isn't. But it has a really great premise, I think. But this is magical. I think this is really, really good in all sorts of ways. She knows the characters and she knows what to do with them. There's moments that don't rely on just people standing up and telling each other how they feel about things, which is so refreshing. Well, amusingly, there is a little bit of that as well. a bit of that too. It's well written. They may be talking directly to the camera going, oh, so he is your emissary, but it is well written. It is really great. There's a wall to it, isn't there? I think she just gets that this is a family on Deep Space 9, but without having to stress that this is a family on Deep Space 9. So just have them as people that live their lives around each other and just love being together. And I think this is one too, where the B plot, which doesn't seem to have anything at all to do with the A plot. Um, makes the station feel lived in, makes it feel like a home. And so the B plot, which is the very welcome return of Rosalyn Chow as Keiko. She's so great. And her and Miles learning to live together again and the effect that that has on his relationship with Julian. All of that is not very spacy or science fiction or anything like that. It's proper sitcom staff, but it's done so well and with such a light touch, and it just makes you feel like here you are on the station, which you know it's a place that you know and you love and I just think it makes the station feel warm and populated and like a home. I think it's really good. I had a situation where I, my ex-husband had to go away for 5 days at a time to work and then would come home for 5 days, yes. It was on a shift pattern like that. And we literally went through this, what they go through in this episode, every 5 days. And the trouble with it was that whilst they're away, you get on with your life. They sort of think like that your life's paused until they come back. They come back and say, right, we're going to do this and no excuse me. And so all of this stuff about Keiko coming back and they, he's turned the room into a terrible mess that he's got to clear up when you go, because you know, we've all seen Keiko mad. It's terrifying. Molly Maz even worse. that in this too. But yeah, so I was like, yeah, all of this is relatable and it's being filtered through characters written with just a delicate touch of humour. And it's what you said before, and I kind of see it here. It's just nice people going through normal life. and it's really really quite addictive to watch. Yeah. I think it's really fun. And, you know, the 1st episode of Deep Space 9 we ever did, which was our 2nd episode of Untitled Star Trek project was House of Quark, and it had a Keiko Mile subplot, which felt incidental and kind of boring, and it's sort of a bit stupid. Do you know what I mean? Like, it just wasn't that... learning. Yeah, they really are. They nailed it this time. You know, like, I think the A-plot is fantastic. I think it's really good. I think that, you know, the what happens to a quorum is super interesting. Like, simple and interesting. It doesn't need a lot of exposition or explanation or anything. It's clear what's going on. And, you know, the way that it changes people and the way that it just, that develops throughout the episode, I just think, is really, really good as well. I don't think this is terrific. It makes me feel sad that we didn't get more Jane. We're so lucky as well, that we have Kira on the station. So whenever sweeping changes happen with the Bajorans, it can be filtered through, not only a character that's so well defined, but just a brilliant actress as well, who can absolutely sell without saying a word, what she's the conflict that she's going through. She's so good at that. There's several scenes I really want to talk about as we go through. But also as well, Janis Benson knows this is a pinpoint in the run of DS9. And they obviously don't know where they're heading with Cisco, but they've got an idea because at the end of this, the prophets say to Cisco, we are a Bajor, you are a Bajor. So they're throwing out Babylon 5 style mysterious statements, you know, from the godlike beings. And I don't think they've figured out what that means yet, but they're like, right, well, that's intriguing and we'll pick it up later. We never forget it, do we? Do you remember at the end of the war, he says, I'm going to build a home on Bajor, you know, like he's he is off Bajor. And so that is a change to the way the character is conceived that they that they introduce here. He needs this course correction. Otherwise, the 2nd half of the series, the way it plays out, it just doesn't work. So we from the very 1st episode where the prophet's met it, which is directly referred to in this as well in this area when they found him and put his life back on track. to this, which is bang in the middle of the series. I think this might be the middle episode of the series. It's halfway through the 4th series. to what you leave behind where he's met his mother at this point. He finds out precisely why he's of Bajor, and well, he's completely off Bajor by the end of that episode, because ta, you know, into the wormhole, as you appear to be right now. Sorry, he's got on the zoom call. Yeah. So I just think this is so brilliantly placed in the middle of the series to take the central character of this show in a completely different direction. And it really, and we said it a 1000000 times before. This is the only show in Nighty Street that's doing this, right? And it's an accident. This is right in the middle of the series. But boy, it feels planned. It's not, but it does feel planned. It's good. I think it's really great. All right. What do you think? Should we go in? How could we possibly destroy this piece of art? Let's go. All right. Okay, I will count us in in that case. Five, four, three, two, one, and we're off. Okay, so have they been doing in these quarters for this to be such a horrible mess? So according to Memory Alpha, Colin Meaney thought this was a bit of a crappy sitcom thing. Nathan, will you take a look around this room? I'm sitting in right now. It's very real Okay? That's it. That's how men. Like what, he's got some kind of insect, like a giant insect sculpture there. I mean, I don't know if you remember. In, uh, in explorers in Series 3. You know, when Julian and Miles get pissed on a load of whiskey and end up sort of sprawled around the room and that. I mean, they probably made the insect that day, you know. Oh, probably. When they weren't snogging, obviously. Well, of course, but yeah. Oh, daddy, daddy. I've got a little brother. place. That's so funny. Miles thinks it's the doll. Like, oh, that kiss is really not very good, is it? I mean, I really believe there was a couple when they're not being sexy, you know? You've been together too long now. Stop being sexy. So yeah, no, it's in there. It's in mummy's tummy. Well, and of course, this goes on to have huge consequences. It's why Kira moves in with the O'Briens later and that dreadful sitcom plot when she gives birth. Oh boy. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But then we get Kirioshi. Yep, yep. It's just real people, isn't it? It's just real people going through real stuff. Who knew Star Trek could do this? The thing that I thought was particularly hilarious, though, was that he thinks he thought he kind of goes, oh, I thought it'd take longer. I thought it'd take a few nights to get pregnant. You gotta go, you do know how this works. So you're like, you know, kind of, like, build it up and work. He's not talking about making babies, you know. He's just talking about some fun, you know? Yeah, that's it. It's like we got to have sex once and now there's a child coming. I thought, Julian, would, you know, give us that contraceptive injection and we could have a go for a couple of years. Oh, this man, Vedic Porter. he's very creepy I'll find. So both the guy who plays a quorum and the guy who plays Porter. I had just assumed that they'd been in Star Trek before, but neither of them has, but they look very familiar. and I'm how you start doing this. When they've been in it before and when they're going to be in it afterwards. Well, I also... Yeah, yeah, yeah. No. And that's just something that I'm interested in because it's always, oh, you know, that's a that guy, you know. So watch Cisco here, Avery Brooks playing Cisco being absolutely awkward having to give this ceremony now for these two. And have we seen him do this? Like, I think we're checking in here to establish what his role as emissary means. We keep participating in the gratitude ceremony or something. Like he does do some things. I think they do it about 2 or 3 times a year. They remind us he's the emissary and they do something with the idea of it. Like earlier in the season, we had Starship Down where Kira was trying to keep him alive and that's the emissary. That I love that line where he gives the blessing in sort of space language and then the smiling venet comes out to him and says, hmm your accent's getting better. That's properly funny because it just means that's when he did it before. It used to be shit. He's really bad at it, which I think is really properly good. I like dark saying, oh, I think I quite like it, you know, being the revered religious icon to this people. That's a great Dax line. And look at this, like this beautiful thing which we saw from Explorer. It's a Bajoran lightship. yeah. And it is CG. but it's different isn't it? You know, it's wonderful. Not the sort of thing we normally see. Yeah, yeah. I think that was a beautiful design and a great idea. And massive tick for setting up the premise of the episode in the teaser because he says, right, yeah, doesn't he? I'm the emissary and we're like, oh, eh? Well this is awkward. We've got 2 emissaries here. Now, I, my one, look at the late about this episode. They did quite a good job there. I have to say. No, no judgering or stuttering. They do start making jokes about that, you know, in later seasons. Yeah, it breaks down there for climb out of it, yeah. is I just don't like Kira's look in series four. I don't like the overtly spray on uniform they've given. They've tried to sex her up a little bit and they do pull back from it in series 5 onwards. They sort of go, maybe that was a bit much. They've tried to make her very shapely. Whereas before she was, she was sort of a bit boxy looking, wasn't she, in her uniform? Well, I mean, we did see that just then because the young woman who was getting a blessing from Benjamin was wearing the same uniform, only the non-sexy main character version. Like the, you know, like her series one, 2 uniform. It is a thing that Star Trek does. I mean, obviously 7 and, you know, Kess, they start to dress Kess sex. I mean, don't get me wrong, she's got it. 3 or 4 years. She's got it. She can sell the uniform. But I don't know. I like her being a bit more androgynous, actually. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's it's in a novice, it are, so she can overcome any look to deliver a fantastic... She does get some worse looks. I'm not sure I like her fluffy hair in this episode either, to be honest. Well, that's the whole look for series four. That's on the, yeah. I mean, my favourite is your least favourite and that's seven. I like the hair that falls down her face. Yeah, she, I, she kind of has like angry American lady here in the 1st in the 1st season, like when you 1st made her. A sort of butch business lesbian, isn't it? I thought she looks like in the emissary. That would have been good. I don't think it's quite as good as that Now, I was shaking this episode? No, he just always gets a credit. He always gets a credit, but he's not in this one. There's my favourite little man, look, kicking his way through to the pilot. I wonder what he's doing. Replacing the plating or something like that. don't know. You know, that would be the most the most exciting thing you could do would be to walk on the edge of Deep Space now, wouldn't it? Yeah, be great. a little bit, but not very often, do it, no? If we were making it now, we'd be up to that sort of thing. all at the time. you know? I think I think we stand on discovery quite a few times. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, there's crazy shit's going on in the atmosphere around them. Well, that last episode of Discovery, remember, with the with the bee, with Michael flying that tiny shuttle thing, the tiny... Jesus, yeah, yeah. This is a little glacial compared to that. But my preference, if I'm honest. Now, can I talk about the actor playing a Korum Lant, whose name I've forgotten? Richard Libertini. I think he's very good, and I think he's very understated, and he only really raises his voice at pertinent moments, which I really like because he doesn't feel the need to shout to make his points. Ira Bear wanted David Warner, and David Warner wasn't available and I don't know if David Warner would have sold this role in the way that this man does. Because David Warner is quite a theatrical actor go, watch chain of command, you know? And I think it would have maybe unbalanced the episode a little bit in that where you're always looking at David Warner. Except the thing is that you want him to be a plausible alternative emissary. Do you know what I mean? And it's like it's David Warner up against Avery Avery Broads. Which would have been great. Yeah, yeah, which would have been great. He was on holiday and his then wife said he didn't want him to do it. No more Star Trek, David, honestly. Come on now. Big finisher on the line. Do that instead. But no, I do I do think he's good though. I don't think this is a bad performance at all. Because he never once feels like a villain. He just feels like a man out of time, whose principles are from 200 years in the past, who hasn't gone from, I mean, the line where he says, Beja was occupied. I love this. Look at look at how Kira reacts. So what we've just learned is that 200 years have passed for him and he says, my wife and child have gone, and she just comes and sits with him, which is so beautiful, and then learns this. It's a Korum Lan. And I wasn't expecting that. I'd forgotten that twist that he's like Shakespeare or someone, you know, someone everyone reads. You know, like is a writer, a poet, and a spiritual person. You know, you've never finished the last stanza. that poem. That's so... the payoff is good. get there. Yeah, let's talk about that when we get there, but I think that's a magnificent moment. I think part of the shame about it, though. is this revered guy who comes back, is emissary for a few weeks, fucks it up, like absolutely publicly in the worst possible way. And then they kind of go, let's send him back. Let's send it back in time because he's really shit here right now. And then he gets to live his life sort of further and stuff. Well, you think about it now. Think about it now, yeah. It happening. Someone from 200 years in the past, coming to now, who is immediately revered as a public figure, put into high office, and this is, right, we're going to make things like there were 200 years ago. Jesus Christ, the Christians would be delighted, you know? Yeah. It would be appalling. So what I think is really interesting too is how gradually we learn about what the dejaras are. And initially it just looks like, initially it just looks like, so they do use the word cast, like a caste system. Cast-based system, yeah. And how that leans into the premise of the show of Cisco being there to have made your join, the Federation, and the consequences that if the car system goes ahead, then that will never happen. So it's threatening the premise of the show as well. There's states. There's real state here. really good. But initially it just looks like, you know, she's doing the wrong job, but it gradually becomes clear as well that the casts are ranked. Do you know what I mean? And that people have to be differential to people from superior castes. And then, of course, it ends up in a murder, like a religious murder. I think the scene in the cafe where she goes, please, have my C. That makes the point better than the murder. The murder's a bit obvious. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, but it escalates to that point, which is great. But there's also a scene where Accorum and Porter are there sort of smiling talking about the way that there will have to be legal enforcement following the Dejaras as well. And I like how they say we're not going to do this immediately obviously. And he goes, well, what about Shikali? a farmer. Like, he goes, yeah, that's fine. We won't force him out of office. He goes, but by the time this system's in place, no one's going to vote for a farmer, to be a politician. This here, you could just see the producers going, oh, my God they're referring to emissary. they're referring to this. How are we going to syndicate this? Yeah, they so again, the memory alpha article says that that generally Bajoran religion didn't go down well with the finds and that they didn't like. I mean, that's ridiculous, I think, because most of the time you've got Louise Fletcher in those episodes and she's magnificent. Interestingly, they're the ones that have aged really well and are quite popular now. Now. Yeah. I just think people just wanted more Voyager more next gen at the time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now they're seeing a show that's doing something different and they're kind of pleased. And and so and so I reckon I was conscious at the time. I mean, I wasn't aware of that. I wasn't reading any of the news or anything that the producers were saying, but I was kind of aware of the fact that they were downplaying the emissary thing, that it didn't play a big part in the show, as if it was something they'd set up for the pilot and then thought, actually, we're probably not going to go with that. Uh, and then she brings it in, like the show brings it back to life and she kind of writes that into the show where it's just like, no, the producers are also known as Starfleet don't really want it to be the other tree and kind of, you know. And so I think that's really terrific. That's very cuttering about Lauren that sucks as I would. They never were happy about you being a... She's like a choir. A choir, broad choir. It's just that one. It's like the way that he talks about babies. This is our babies, aren't they adorable? You know, everything that they pick up just goes immediately into their ears. This thing is so wonderful. Here comes the zinger. Have you heard? Kako's gonna have a baby. War walks in. Now? Forgive me, I think I'll be away at that point visiting my parents. It's 7 months time he's going to be visiting his parents on earth as far away as possible. It is sick, but I do feel like real people. It's just fake. I think what I want this to be is that Jana Spenson, like me, loved disaster. And, you know, that particular plotting disaster, which works which just rely so heavily on how brilliant Michael and Rosalind both are in it. Like they're both so funny in that. And that scene is so memorable. It's wonderful to have that referred to again. I love how they wind up wharf, and then they just turn to the bowl chuckling at each other. It's what I do with my mates. I just believe these people, you know? Even like I was watching this and just thinking, man, I could do with a beer. You know, like just that thing where, you know, they're coming in after work, they're having a pint, you know, like just earth, beer just looks great. I was watching them though. something miserable. Because Sid has a sip. But Column just puts it to his mouth and then as a liar, puts it to his mouth. He never drink. And then in a scene later, he does have a drink, you know. He must have known that's been sitting there warm for hours while they've been shooting this scene, you know. But Sid's method, he goes all the way. Although, Joe, and another bit later, which again just feels like real people, when he goes, he goes, oh, I've been playing dance with more, and he couldn't hit a Eurydian yak from 2 paces. And he goes, I've been playing with Molly and she, you know, uses magnets with her darts. I thought to myself, God, that's like me and Nathan. Oh, yeah, I've been podcasting with so-and-so, oh, yeah. So have I. yeah. Oh, thank God, we're back together. Yay. Sorry, I didn't mean that. Oh, this scene. Now, will you please look at how many extras there are about the place? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They've got about 500 extras about the promenades, including one guy with a very big prosthetic head that they keeping in the background. They all put in these sort of red and brown uniforms. Yeah. Oh yeah, look at that alien. Who the hell was that? Yeah, yeah. So, so I, I think this is kind of interesting as well. It's a little bit basic, to be honest. And it's sort of early on. They're not really in a relationship or anything like that. I love the line, though. I love the line. He's questioning her faith. Yeah. It is something I've had conversations with Christian friends with before. Like, well, how can you believe that and that's such a contradiction? And they just go, well, it's just faith, you know? Well, that's a very catch all answer for anything that doesn't make sense. But, you know, like there's something, like, this is not an episode that's about how great faith is, though, necessarily, is it? Because this is the religion, you know, from 200 years ago raising its ugly head. Um, and yeah, making everyone... His motive for doing it is not bad. He wants to, he wants to heal the wounds of the, by returning them to a point where they were at peace, where this was the norm before that shit with the Kardashians went down. So I get it. I understand the motive. It's just like, unfortunately, you can't win back time. you know we've moved on. Yeah, but he sees them as lost that it's an injury that's been done to their culture. And, you know, it's ever been mentioned before. We don't know this about the Bajorans, but the Bajorans are, you know, a bit of a blank slate. And like I think that that works really well. I think Cisco's reaction and her reaction, look at her. Her reaction is complete, so she starts clapping, but it's a very faltering clap because she knows she's going to have to give up her job. If this is enforced, she is going to have to do something that she has no aptitude to do what. And we will say that later in the episode. But it's not just I'm going to have to be an artist and I'm a shitty artist. These people are now going to say what I can do as a job. Do you know what I mean? These people will control my life. The two, but you're on women in uniforms in the crowd, giving each other a look of like... The characters we've never seen before. And we'll never see again, but it's like they're looking at each other like, what the hell does this mean for us? And Avery's reaction as well, which we go to the credits on, which the commercial break on is really great. I think all the Star Trek fans, you know, watching this now, you know, the ones that love the space problems and all this. I sort of breathing a sigh of relief because we're in a Star Trek y style set now, you know, the wardrobe. But yeah, yeah, you went to the United Federation of Planet Sing. But also, you know, like the, like one of the things that Star Trek does is it sets up a cultural problem, do you know what I mean, a society that's organised in a particular way? And normally we go to a planet and find it, you know, we go to the planet where everyone has to follow their jars and stuff like that. And whatever conflict arises from having a religion that's coercive and that runs every aspect of people's lives. But here it's being done in a place. Like look at this fucker, this awful, isn't it? guy on the left. I've been waiting for this moment. He's sort of there going, yeah, to take control. I'm a little man, a little religious man. supporting people like will deport people who don't do it. Um, yeah. Yeah, so this is very Star Trek, like traditional Star Trek, this thing, but because it's located in a place that we know, and because it's affecting our regular characters because they live here. And the premise of the show. And the premise of the show, you know? Like, Cisco has no need to be here if... If Bajor is not going to join the Federation, you know? Or maybe sort of, I don't know, political friendliness. Who knows? I love the line about win as well. There's just a little line about... Because I think Wynn is all missing from this. She's doing a movie, you know, she's getting 5 times this salary somewhere else. because she's so fabulous. And he goes, yeah. I've had a word with Kai Wynn about this and she agrees and we're going to reinforce it all and Cisco goes, yeah, somehow our fall win would see it that way. Or something like that, you know. a little reminder of how much they hate each other. Oh, with all this grabbing of the ears. Yeah, it's a bit sexy, really. Um, I mean, I would grab that Avery Brooks. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's kind of what I was thinking. Any chance to stroke his face. Me and Penny Johnson, Gerald, are one. That's a nice line as well, because it's exactly what Kai Baka did to him in the emissary. She said your power is strong, you know, and then he says, I can see why she thought you were the emissary. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Oh, and now we get her, don't we? Is she in the scene? No, not quite. He's not tossing in his sleep yet. Oh, no, this is the scene where we've got the woman who's being deferential because she's in the wrong cast. This is why we need all these extras, isn't it, in this episode? There's a lot of crowd things. stands for her. Yeah, and Kira's just like, I don't understand. You're not finished. No, no, no. I'm Ivala. Oh, God, I can't even say it or whatever. I'm space thing. They have they have apostrophes in them, which is what you want. It's one of those times, because there are some times where I think the Bajorans come across as remarkably naive in DS Night they do these sort of sweeping changes and everyone just sort of takes it on board. This is one time where I get it though. I get why they're all trying. Because, again, again, they are trying to heal wounds. You know, they've been doing this from the start of DS9. But again, this scene, it's good, isn't it? Where is this the one where she... No, it's not yet. It's not yet. The one where she talks about the other guy who's going to replace her. But that's coming later. Yeah. Avery just absolutely does a blinder of a line in that scene. It moves me every time I hear it because I remember you and me watching like progress and season one episodes where we were watching this relationship between Kira and Cisco form and it was a tricky transition, she thought they were the enemy. She didn't want to be the administrator for these people at the Federation coming and telling them what to do. And she's totally like on board now. They've formed a relationship. They're close. earlier in the season. We saw her get over the emissary thing and go to a baseball match with him and they're friends now, you know? And now she's being asked to go and do this thing away from him. And they're both devastated that they're not going to work together anymore. Well, I mean, that scene there too, where she says, you know, you could have said anything and we would have done it, that like he didn't fully realise how important the emissary was and perhaps didn't really quite realise how she regarded him too. What is he doing? Toss it in that bed lot. I know, tossing restlessly. Sweating. at that. I mean, whenever we do these, either dream sequences or as later in the episode into the wormhole with the profits, it does give them a chance to sort of play about with the light and then the angles a bit, you know? I actually, yeah, I quite like how this is done. Um, so he thinks he hears something. He keeps moving, and then the lights all go down. It wasn't a very... Oh, no, it was nothing hard. that panel. So he walks behind the panel and then when he comes out, the lights are down. It's pretty good. There's no cart, but suddenly the lights are down when he emerges from behind it. I think the woman who play a Camille Saviola. She's a great actress. She's really good isn't she? She gets a handful of lions. How can I know somebody who doesn't know himself? She goes... It's great, isn't it? Again, it's being written by someone who just intimately knows the show, like has made it her business to know the show and she brings something new. So this thing, which is called an orb shadow, um, you know, uh hasn't been mentioned before, probably won't be mentioned again but is consistent with, you know, what we've seen and what we know about Bajor. And I just think bringing her back, bringing Camille back for just that little scene. Oh, she's back later, obviously, as a wormhole alien as well. Um, is so good. It's so good. And because the thing is with O Parker was just absolutely fucking brilliant and they just burn her like she's gone by episode 2 or 3 or something. No, it's, it's, uh, it's about 10. It's about 10. yeah. So they do wait a little bit, but it's only a 2nd appearance. And she's like, oh, please, take me through the wormhole. I want to experience it. And then they crash. And then she's stuck on that awful planet, you know, with those 2 rival factions and she's killed and Kira's absolutely devastated obviously. But it did give us win. Oh, boy. So Kira here is making her flockless claybirds. It's all in silence as well, isn't it? They trust Nanar to do this. So she smashes the one she's making. She sits down, looks at this giant flock of them that it turns out she's been making. She stares at one of them and then she just picks her hand up and smashes the head off. Do you know enough? I have no artistic aptitude whatsoever, but even I'm better than this. Jesus Christ. Again, how rare is it? Like, that was obvious? Do you know what I mean? Like, it was very clear what she was thinking and what she was feeling. But it's so rare for a Star Trek character, even in Deep Space now not to just tell us how they feel. And so to have a scene with no dialogue where we just get an actor to show us how someone feels, is so refreshing to this stupid show. Oh, so good. And, you know, we'd already had that with the hand clap scene right? Yeah, so they're doing it quite. I've just seen maybe Jane Spenson just trusts the actors. It's Jane Spenson. She's a better writer. Well, and she finds a way of getting the actors to convey emotion without having them just blurt out, you know, like. Have you ever seen what she does on Twitter? is so great. She is writing stin. Yeah, right in sprints. So it's an hour of writing. She goes, everyone, right in sprint, go. And no one's allowed back on social media for an hour. Go be creative and then, well, come back and we'll talk about it. Really, isn't it? She's great. She's really good. Oh, here she is, look. Molly the DV. is adorably cute. I'm kind of a ring. Yeah, I think that's so good. It's so good Like, I actually quite like how both her and Miles were having fun doing the, doing the, um, pulls out that enormous stupid costume that he's got for when he's Brian Baru and goes Miles. Oh, it's lovely to have a long-term couple on Star Trek, isn't it? It just, it's just nice. Stop, stop, stop, try for twins. I think funny line as well. I don't think it works that way. Irishman, honestly. Oh, no, that's his wife. It's all right. Uh, that is, I grew a pony. I think she's so funny. Tell me a story. If that was me, right? You know me in my opinion of children, I'd have given her a D minus. I said go do it again. Oh, no, I think she's feeling funny. All right, no. Tate is the most stunning, beautiful. Just beautiful. And so happy to have been in it. She's so proud. She's in the documentary going, my God, the peak of my career. Rumple of self skimp, you know? She's so cute. where he wants to play dance with her and she goes I'm coming, you know, like it's like, and he looks at the costume and no dialogue. We know exactly what he's thinking, though, right? And that was good too, because the costume, like it also is not just playing the I'd like to be with Julian roll. And look, she sees it as well and doesn't say anything. And her bringing it into the scene also shows that she's aware of the Julian thing. Stop trusting the actors, honestly. What's going on? Although, you know, Nathan, we've all had that moment, right? You and me. obviously we're both in relationships, but we're both sitting there longingly going, oh, I just want to go and talk about Star Trek with Nathan. Yeah, that's right. That's right Much better than this mundane, you know, normal shit I'm going through. Jesus, crazy. Oh, no, here we go. This is this is one of my favourite scenes of the episode. And it's because it's so understated. Like they're both holding back tears because they're really sad at the fact that she's made the call. that she's gonna go to Bajor. She's going to be an artist, and they love working together, and it's just not going to be the guy. This stresses the family thing without the Janeway going, we're our family, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I think it's, like, I just think it's really good. Again, you know, this isn't complex. You know, it's not super literary. It's just very competent and well done and it exceeds the level that Star Trek normally reaches, I think. You're not sure. have to be complex to be relatable, though. No, no, no. But it's it's just that thing. It's just doing basic stuff that conveys how the characters are feeling without them telling us. But that's cool. joy of this. The joy of the show. I'll say it a 1000000 times, yeah, all the groundwork they've done in the 1st 4 years with these characters, all the history that they have in this stationary setting where they've built relationships. This all pays off now. This is why you do it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, and it's a roll from here to seven. It's just a roll of payoff, you know, of putting them in complex situations and watching those characters react. Yeah, look at this. Look at him. Yeah, he's doing the Beverly thing with a console. I've never wanted to be a console more. Sorry, it's a lovely moment. Why am I choosing this moment to be rude? Yeah, it's good, isn't it? This is something I have to do. Oh, look, look, look, look, look. She's about to cry. But she's just, she just, she sniffs it back. She's like, no. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because she has to do it and she doesn't want to make him feel bad either. She even says, you know, I don't want to add to your problems. And obviously, like, this is, you knew where this line was going. But it's nice. Like, it's wonderful to hear him say it. He has such warmth in his voice. doesn't he? And look at her reaction. Look at her reaction. Oh, dear. When you have him come away from all the Star Trek bollocks, the Technobabble and all of this and just let him be a person. I don't think there's another actor like Avery Books in in 90s track. Even his understated reaction shot there to Kira, who was just magnificent, I think. Like that was really good as well. Like he's stricken. He's not tearing up the way that she was. Here we go. Can you imagine, no, right? I did say to you in a message. Can you imagine those that only come to Star Trek for strange new worlds and civilisations watching this? That'd be appalled, wouldn't they? Well, I don't know, though. I know, because I think, I do think that, like I said, I do think that the central, like the A plot is an absolute traditional Star Trek plot, um, except that it involves our characters much more, uh because they belong here. You know, we're not just sort of scooting in for 45 minutes to observe this sort of social problem or anything like that. I mean, do you remember when Roddenberry didn't want family after best of both worlds? Do you remember that? Yeah, yeah. I mean, it was, no, no, let's move on. We can't have con... I mean, look how far we've come. This is just embedded in the series this, isn't it? Well, it's embedded in television. Do you know what I mean? Like the weekly procedural thing. Like, it's still a thing, but the characters remember previous ones and they progress and change as a result of them. That's just how TV works now. It demands some commitment. Revolutionary acts, the characters remember. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Oh, he goes, come on. The Battle of Britain awaits court goats. Who was it? and probably doesn't even know where England is. We've all had this moment as well, where we're like, oh, I really want to hang out with my mates, but I've got to go home. Yeah. It's my turn to make dinner tonight and I'm a terrible cook. Well, you just have to say something into the replicator. Imagine morning or spitfire. Please, why didn't you show us that? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, to be fair, we didn't even see them in a spitfire. Oh, it might be my favourite running joke born, you know, in all of Star Trek. Totally accidental, like most things on DS 9. but yeah. Ah, damn, quartz, like, well, I've got the holosuite 3 and I'm not giving them a refund. Great. That's right Oh, no. Odo's very casual. He goes, you better come down to the promenade. someone's been killed. Is that always been killed? Yeah, I thought so too. No, okay. Oh, God. Did they fall off that bloody balcony? Can we remove that balcony, please? That's right. Can we put a higher railing on? People keep hanging themselves off here. I mean, becoming a problem. I do think the way the Vedic actor plays this scene is great though. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because he was quite genial before, like complimenting Cisco and his accent earlier on, and now you can just see what a religious leader can be like, and we do know that from Louise Fletcher. His Dejara was unclean. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that's the thing that makes the point. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And utterly without remorse. And when he's taken away by a Bajoran security man, he looks shocked. Like, what are you doing? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, and then this very casual scenery goes, oh, wow, I regret that this happened. Yeah, yeah, it's super interesting, isn't it? It's really kind of interesting because the guy that the Vedek kills was a priest. Yeah, like, he was one of his fellow priests whom he killed for refusing to give up the priests. Well, no, no, no, no, no, no. No, no. So, I mean, that's that's a thing, isn't it? Like people who handle dead bodies are unclean in all kinds of religious traditions. Um, and so, it's not that he does that because he just belongs to a Dejara, that traditionally does that. So he shouldn't be a priest. He should be preparing dead bodies because he's unclean and that's what he's fit for. I bet he didn't think when he woke up that morning, he was going to get shoved off that balcony. No, no. Yeah. Yes. I think if we were making this now. I think this is one time where 90s trek being understated and less epic, actually works really well because I think if we were making this now, we'd go to like religious war or so, it would be big. And I like the fact that this is quite contained. It's, yeah. I mean, like, this is a giant social upheaval that starts and ends within 45 minutes. With about 5 people. Yeah, that's right. So it is still very Star Treky. And I think something like this would have to be handled over a period of time. You know what I mean? Like in a in the new series, you couldn't do something of this scale just in one episode. I suppose the point of the episode isn't that the jar is coming in the point of the episode is Cisco realising his place. Yeah. Yeah. But I do think like Kira getting to experience... how coercive religion can be is interesting. Do you know what I mean? She has a fairly naive view of it at the beginning and you've got you know, she's being questioned by Odo and she's very serenely confident that it's just faith and it's all fine. And then she learns that, you know, also religion is men telling you how you're going to live your life, which I think is a thing that's worth remembering. Do you remember in the circle where the contradictions in her belief about religion is there's a wonderful metaphor which she's making a stone path across a river and she goes, it's crooked. And he goes, yeah, it's crooked. She goes, yeah, no, she goes, the stones are straight. I'm the one that's crooked. It's so great. Oh here we go. The profit filter is in action. Yeah. So my favourite thing here is that he's making his case to be emissary by saying I was here 1st and he came to you later. And as I was listening to the dialogue, I was going, they're the prophets, they're not going to understand any of that. And that's exactly how they respond. Like again, she's so steeped in the show. We're basically doing a trial scene now, aren't we? you know, like the profits are going to decide, you know. yeah Which one of these 2 is the emissary? And I like the conclusions we draw. You know, it's like, you weren't committed to this. And so we did all of this, so you do, because frankly, we've seen what's going to happen in the future, and we need you to do this. In fact, I think that, like, as Spenson has clearly watched the pilot again, like has watched emissary again. you know, in the way that you might do if you were going to write for the a show the 1st time, and heaps of this stuff is drawn on and comments on emissary. This is not our 1st time with the profits because we had them in the comedy. Profit motive, yeah. Yeah, profit motive. And that was the 1st time this is the next time they come back in a more serious role, but it is relitigating what the 1st season does. Don't think we see them again now till Sacrifice of Angels. Okay. Pivotal moment in the show. Is this the 1st time he's the Cisco? No, he's always the Cisco, isn't he? Watching this without the music and without hearing the performances, I'm just seeing all the regular actors doing this sort of ethereal movement as they turn around, just kind of swaying. If this was brakes. Imagine that drone would be zooming about the place, wouldn't it? It would be vertiginous inside the wormhole. But I really like the conclusion here that he's fucked up in a major way. We don't want to kill him. Do you know what I mean? And we don't want to humiliate him either. And so what they do is they return him to the past and he can't remember what happened to him. Uh, and it, so he's not aware that he's fucked up in this way. And he just gets him because his wife and family. Exactly, to prove he's not a bad guy. He goes, I can go back and be with my wife and family. Let's do it. Clearly, I'm not doing great work here in the future. Let's go. that's right Yeah, yeah. And then Cisco now sees the impact that if somebody in that role made the wrong moves. Like, he was keeping this thing in balance. Yeah. Yeah. It's really great. So the thing that's keeping it imbalances. He doesn't know the power that he has like he does now, but he didn't before. You know, Kira says, you do realise we would have done anything you said. I do love that prophecy. You are a Bijour, says Camille Sovio. Star Trek fans are pondering over this for the next 3 seasons. So this scene is adorable. It's so sweet. Oh, this is one of Keiko's best ever scenes, I think. Yeah, she's really fitcom. And Rosalind Chow shows her comedy shops and then something went up to myself, why was she so serious in the 1st couple of seasons you know? She's so funny. She's really funny. Do not remember when Kira moves in and she goes to the 2 of them. Have you been fighting again, the 2 of you? Can I do the joke, Nathan? Okay, I'm going to use somebody else, though. You ready? Hello, Todd? Yes. Oh, I've been seeing Nathan lately, you know. He's looking really depressed. Yeah. Why don't you go and hang out with him? Well, maybe 2 hours. All right. Okay. Hello? Nathan? Have you seen Todd lately? He's been listening to untitled Star Trek project. Yeah, he's really depressed. Yeah, why did he go into that? I mean, it is wonderful, isn't it? It's wonderful. But she's so expressive, she's pulling funny faces, like she's really having fun with it. And she's, you know, also that she's kind of, she's clocked that. Yeah, look, she's clocked as well. The only thing that would make him, it's wonderful. It's just wonderful. But because she, it wouldn't work if she said, for Christ's sake you miserable bastard go out and have a drink. She has to turn it into a rescue mission so that they feel okay about doing that when she dumps a shitty bird. Oh, this line. She goes, it's a care and the Reese original. He goes, I hear she didn't make many. So great. So fun. Oh, it's hideous. I want one. I feel like we don't get to hear the speech, and we did get to hear a speech from an emissary earlier in the episode, so maybe we don't need to hear. Maybe if witness was a 2 par. We might have had some time. Yeah, yeah, maybe that would be good. I'll grab the scene of the bird, though, if I'm honest. Well, I'm happy to have them playing Dungeons and Dragons as they want. through that thing. I think they're getting very horny in those hollow sweets, you know. But I actually think that's beautifully done because that's the resolution of that plot, and it just happens with those 2 characters walking through VC. Having a few lines of dialogue in their stupid outfit which has already been associated with their relationship by that earlier scene. Do you know what I mean? It's just so light. Do you know what I mean? And now we see what we see to think about. The only way these 2 plots connect. It's just there when they walk past. But it's so good because otherwise it would have just been this leaden fucking scene where they sat down and talked about their feelings. you know what I mean? Did you see Kira and Cisco? They both look at each other and laugh at the state of them in those ridiculous costumes. Yeah. Oh, this is funny. Just to repeat the scene at the end, but now he has a huge smile on his face. He's embracing that. This girl who is clearly not being paid to deliver any dialogue this week. And so she's not gonna say anything at all in this situation. I sat for 2 hours in this makeup chair and you're not giving me a line. Oh man. Nathan, when he smiles, Avery Brooks. It warms my heart. It's the most beautiful smile. That was, that was good. And what was great about it was it was a really, really good episode that wasn't an event episode. Like, it was, like, in retrospect, it proves to be really important, it's clearly a deliberate course correction, but it may be something that Jane Spenson found, and then the rest of them went with. I don't know what the genesis of it is, or do they go to Jane and say, we want to, you know, big up the emissary, think, and you find a way of getting that restarted, like making that a thing again. We've been neglecting it. I don't know. But, but it's a non-event episode. It's not, you know, in the pale moonlight, it's not a big kind of high stakes war episode. It's just really good and fun and well. This would be my upper, if I was rating DSN either, this would rank quite high for me. Yeah, okay. Yeah, yeah. Because this is precisely what I was talking about in profit motive about hanging out with these characters, sort of believable character moments and sort of warm, intimate performances. This is more hang time on Star Trek. Yeah, yeah. But here, she sort of, she adds that to a plot that has real weight, both for the premise of the show, the future of the show and has a massive importance to the characters going forward as well. Yeah. But it is really quite understated. Like you said, it's not waving a flag going, we want to be in a top 10 list. It's just really, very good. And frankly, if all Star Trek was aiming for this, we're being such a great place, unfortunately, very often. they're not All right, it's the end of the episode, and we need to work out where we're going next. And so to take a look at an alternative vision of Star Trek, which is nowhere near as good as what we've just watched. We are going this week to pick an episode of Star Trek Enterprise. Of course we are. Only you ever take us. I love Star Trek Enterprise. It's so terrible. I mean, we have sort of our educational Star Trek Enterprise has been that. If we're in the last series, we're all right. Otherwise, well, it's rough. Nathan, are we in the last series? I don't know. Let me press the button. Uh, it's your random Star Trek Enterprise episode is Dedalus. Season four, episode 10. Now, I'm going to suggest you press it again, only because if we do all the series 4 episodes, and we've done quite a few now, we're just going to be left with all the dogs. Okay, all right. All right. Let's aim lower then. Yeah, but on 10 years time, I don't just want to be stuck doing series one episodes of Enterprise, right? Well, this time then, it's season three, episode 18 Azati Prime. Yes, yes, yes. Oh, okay. Why? Is it terrible? Gray. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. This is great. I don't care if you don't think this is great. It's great. I really want to watch that. Sounds like I'll hate this. This is my favourite episode of Series 3. by a mile. It's the best cliffhanger ever in Star Trek Enterprise. and I don't care if that's hyperbole. This is great I wanna watch it. Wow, is it? I've never been so forceful about Enterprise before. All right, well, definitely do it, but I can assure you, I'll hate it. The trouble is, you know, Scott Bacula came round and he asked to do a funeral ritual and we touched some rocks together and ever since then, I've been obsessed with Star Trek Enterprise, you know? right. Well, that can happen as we've discovered. All right. We'll do it. It's just to say, it's right in the heart of that arc. It's a huge moment. I love it. It's a huge moment in that arc as well. And it's probably as cinematic as Enterprise ever got in terms of action. So, yeah, I think it's definitely work to look. A lot of cartoon spaceships. Lows, yeah. And people being sucked into space is great. Oh, okay. All right. Okay. Will do it. You've been listening to untitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford and Nathan Bottomley. We're online at Untitled Star Trek project.com, where you can find subscription links and links to our social media accounts. Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceran, and the theme was composed by Cameron Lamb. This episode was recorded on the 5th of November 2024 and released on the 15th of November. We'll see you next time for Star Trek Enterprise, Azanti Prime. You know, I've noticed, when we do these, um, I'll throw you out the back, change your face of evil, um, uh, God, the one with the great Treachery Faith in the Great River, this, when he sees ones that are really annured in, there's so much to talk about, isn't there? Like, we would never run out of things to say in those sort of episodes. No. Yeah, God I love it. I do. I push it a bit much sometimes, but I do love that show. No, no, I thought that was properly good. That, that, like, again, Jane Spenson, and she's so... Like, I think she's the best Buffy rider. Me too. Yeah, yeah. Right up until the end where she wrote the storyteller, the Andrew episode. I just love it. You put your knife in our utensil drawer. He goes, I washed it. It's really good. She's wonderful. She's just terrific. Just properly funny. And I think she does the best episode of Torchwood series 4 as well. Is that the one with the gay romance? Yeah, yeah, that's that's really good. I think I think I wonder if she was like, you know, Nana Vista is pretty good. We'll bring her into torture it, shall we? Because obviously she turns up the issue for one random episode. Doesn't she turn up for one episode of BSG and isn't is that by Janis Spenson? I can't remember. It is. Yeah, it is. Yeah, yeah. She wasn't well-matched to BSG, though, because it's so dark and she's so funny. Do you know what? You remember when Russell did the Narrows It Down scene in World War III? Yeah. He's not aping, just Whedon. He's aping Janis Spain. because she does that fast whiff back and forth. Shiro homecoming. Do you remember when she's like, Cordelia, pick up the gun. Accordingly, it's like, and she goes, oh, Portelia, pick up the spatula. And she just hits the band. You know, that's, I think that's absolutely what Russell's looking at. Yeah, yeah. No, she's, I mean, she's magnificent. She's so good. Like, I did like her in BSG because I think that, you know, it again, it has texture. It's not... all grim. Like, it is really grim in a way that I don't normally lie. be funny. Yeah. But I don't know if it's playing to her biggest strength, which is... But she's, but the rightly stuff, the discovering things about the characters and getting characters. Oh, yeah. to speak for themselves and all of that, like BSG's doing that. Like, he's more sophisticated. She's been knocking on her door to sue 5, 6, and 7 of TS9. Yeah, absolutely. imagine what she could have done. And just so nice to have a woman writing, you know? Yeah, why does she never come back, I wonder? Well, she's got a career. You know, she, I need them. But like, I'm glad that we got it for this. I mean, I'm really glad that we got it for it because she's magnificent. the only script, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But like I said, the force of nature thing is a genius idea. Like, I remember thinking that, and maybe, and even overwhelmed my impression of it, because everyone says it's really dreadful. I always thought, no, no, no, it is the, it threatens the show. Like it threatens that whole universe. It's like the burn. Do you know what I mean? It's like it, it, it makes that whole universe impossible. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And they don't lean into it a lot, do they? It's kind of like I failed and they don't, there's not a lot of kind of, well, I'll just have to leave and go back to, you know Earth or whatever. Like that's not really properly said, but it is strongly implied. And there is because that conversation about his failure eventually becomes a conversation about her having to, um, having to quit the job, you know, like it's, yeah, it's good. She's just... Which is where the emotional meat is, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, yeah. She's just got a pulse on the emulsion on the emotions. She's just great. And, of course, she sung that wonderful song, didn't she? It once more we're feeling. No, that was my... Oh, was it? Oh, why did I think that was Shane Spenson? No, it's Martin Oxon. Much less good, rider. No, but interesting. Interesting. D dark. Yeah, a bit too bleak for me, I think. There's Buffy in series in series 6 is too miserable, I think. And it like Joss is a way doing something else, isn't he? It's mostly Marty's... On the right day, though. Some of those episodes are my favourites. Oh, yeah, yeah, she's good. Like, I think she... Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's amazing. But then, yeah, well, go look at six. It's the Jane the Spenson episodes that are the lighter ones. are the funny ones, you know? She's like, I'm not doing this. Bloody rape and torture. I'm not doing that Come on now. I'm going to have everyone forget their memories and we'll have a nice comedy episode, you know? Yeah, which, again, it's great into... Doesn't it, like, properly leads into thing? Randy Giles, he goes. My name's Randy. All right, all right, all right. I think we did well. Yeah, I think we did pretty well, you know. All right, I'm going to go water the plants. As usual, my feet are freezing because all the blood has rushed down to them, sitting on this chair. There we go. It's a thing, arthritis. So I'm going to go and have bath. I will send these. I will say good night. immediately. I'm going to stop recording.