Tacking Into the Wind

Hey, Joe. Hi. So, it's our 100th episode, and to celebrate, we are doing a spectacular episode of Deep Space 9. I think we both agree. Is that right? I think this is bloody brilliant. This is one of my favourites from the last series, which is one of my favourite series of Star Trek, which is why we keep coming back. We promise you it is random. It just happens to randomly always kick us into. like how the randomiser just tends to avoid TNG series one and two, have you noticed? Yeah, it's upsetting. It's doing us a favour, really. And we've obviously got a lot of earlier DS9 to get through. But this is very, very good. so good. Yeah. I thought this was properly good. So this is the 6th of the 9 episode run, including the double length episode that ends the series. Two episodes ago was The Changing Face of Evil, which we've already done. That was yours and mine, sort of favourite soap operatics we've had, yeah, in Star Trek, you know. Kai Wynn, facing up to the fact that the man she's been shagging it's dug culture car, fabulous demar, causing a revolution and breaking off from the Dominion. Poor old Sabor. Oh, yeah, he's being stabbed in the back. And then his blood setting fire to the book of the coast emoji. Oh my god, what nonsense. was really fun. So that was incredibly fun. This is different though. Yeah. This is proper, I think. And so there's essentially 3 plots here. We've got what I think is the best plot, which is Damar and Kira. So clearly last week. Kira ends up in a Starfleet uniform working with Damar on the rebellion that he kind of started the week before. Do you remember the scene? It starts, it literally cuts to Cisco's office and Kira's standing there going, you want me to go to Cardassia and teach a bunch of Cardassians, how to be rebels? Do you realise what you're saying? Cisco goes, the runabout's waiting. Off you go. And it turns out that it works out really well this episode. I think that that's absolutely the strongest one with some incredible performances from everyone, you know, including Casey Biggs, including Nana Visitor and Renee. Oh, and Andrew Robinson. So good. And when you say him last, you know, we're in good, you know, we're in good space. So many great character moments within that strand. But so much of it leaning into the Cardassian Bajoran conflict that has gone back right to the start of the show and we're making parallels with what the Cardassians are going through to what the Cardassians were doing at the beginning of the show. I mean, talk about a mythology bearing through. Yeah. And so because you've had these characters and these arcs going for so long, everything is sort of meaningful. Everything has these sort of these whole levels of meaning and just the way the actors react and the way they behave and deliver their lines, there's so much there. Like there's so much to enjoy, so much subtext, all the stuff that 90 Star Trek never does. It just lets the actors tell us how they feel rather than giving them lines where the characters tell us how they feel. It's worth remembering as well. The cast were all exhausted at this point. They've been doing this, you know, gruelling show of 16 hours a day for 7 years. They were ready to stop. They could have just been phoning it in at this point. And I think they're doing their best work. Yeah, it's really, really properly good, I think. Then we have a 2nd plot, which I described last night to you on the chat. It's just the Klingons are on their same old bullshit again. But there's no way this is... There is definite movement and it's bring, it's basically Remor who is essentially leaving Star Trek at this point. He's going to have a little flirtation with Voyager, but that won't last long. We've discovered that elsewhere. But he's basically bringing that plot to a conclusion, I think that he's been running ever since the sort of mid-seasons of TNG. Yeah. Well, in fact, there are some, I think, deliberate parallels between this and reunion, which we did a few weeks ago. But I also think, though, you know, we're now at the point where wharf's been discommended twice and reaccepted back into the fold twice. And there's a real kind of sense of sameness here. You've got, you know, you've got Hartzler and you've got Michael Dawn and all of that's fun. There's a great scene with Michael Dawn and Nicole, which is really great too. But I couldn't help thinking that this felt a little bit black stuff we've seen a lot before. I thought this was a lot worthier than that. I like what it says about Cisco that he tells Worf effectively to go, kill Gowron, because that's taken us into new territory we've not been to with our Star Trek captain before. I love the scene with Ezra. I think it's the best scene as we get in the whole season where she systematically tears down the Klingon Empire in a few sentences and shows war for actually this can't go on anymore. And you've just got 3 hugely charismatic characters in Worf, Martoc and Gowron. which just make all of those scenes sing. So I, as in no way bad material. No, no, no, no, no. But it is kind of the sort of thing we've seen before quite a lot. What pays it off. I think is the end where Garon is kills. And let's not forget that Robert O'Reilly, when you found out that the 2 actresses playing Lurser and Betor got Generations the movie. Well, they got the script for that and he was like, oh, you're doing a movie, are you? Well, it's been nice knowing you in the Star Trek franchise because the 2nd you do a movie. You're dead. And they go, no, no, no. Then they picked up the script and it's like, oh, bugger it. He's obviously done, you know, lots and lots of seasons since then. I just think what makes that work is killing off Garon, who's, you know, has been around since reunion, which is a long time. This is a legacy character and he's murdered in, I know you're going to mock the scene, but I love that scene. I love it when he's sort of push through the glass in slow motion and he is doing the usual Klingon ship, but it feels like that whole thing is coming to an end. And I think it deserves that because we've been doing this a long time. And it's book ended by the same scene in a sense that we have in reunion, isn't it? Where Worf kills either Duras or Gauron, and someone new exceeds to, you know, the chancellorship. I think there are also parallels here too, because in both of those plots that we've described, the main character is encouraged to act in order to sweep away something that's old and not functioning. And the way that they do that is by killing someone. So DeMar kills Rasot and Worf kills Gauron. And they're both encouraged to do that by a conversation that they have with a female regular. So, um, Asri, as we've just said, but there's an incredible scene which we'll talk about, where Kira confronts demand in what is a really, really interesting scene emotionally, I think. And she encourages him, I think. And I think the episode is very clear about that, or at least the actor's performance is, that it's what she had said before, that encourages Damar to kill Rousot when he finally decides to do that. And I just think all of that stuff is really good. So this is one where the A and B plot are doing the same thing they're clearing things away for a new group of people to kind of take over, take control of the various races. And it struck me you said this before. I think that ROM taking over as Nagus in a couple of episodes time is making fun of that. Don't you think? Like, you know, with DeMar. I mean, we know DeMar doesn't make it because he's killed in what you leave behind. But the idea is that it will be a better Cardassian with him in charge, with Martok in charge of the Klingon Empire and with Rom in charge of Rengenar. All of these sort of fusty old states that you're talking about there. That's all cleared and there's a new direction for all of them. And who knows what that's going to be, but that's DS9 basically saying, we're leaving it there, make your own judgement. Yeah, yeah, I think that's really good. But it looks like the future's bright in all of those cases. Well, maybe not Cardassia, 1000000 people are killed in the last episode. Yeah that's true. But that parallel again is where Bajor was in emissary. So, yeah, exactly. There's a lot of sort of circular movement in DS9 that really pays off. Yeah. And and unlike the changing face of evil, where everyone's plot was kind of inched along a beard, here it is just those 2 plots and we have a sort of C plot, much sort of thinner plot, which leads into next week's episode, which section 31 and so on. So you can't have these last 10 episodes without one plot at least just being the sort of A to B. Yeah, we're just going to inch it along, like you say. But within that, I do like the sheer sort of obsessed with trying to figure it out because he cares about Odo. I do like O'Brien being his friend coming in and, you know, feeding him and offering him support. We're not going to get to see that. We won't have the opportunity to say that in a few weeks time. all going to be over. And so I think that stuff is great. And they, and I know. But we get an episode where they just properly concentrate on that in like next week's episode. Play their love for each other. I thought what's going on there. Wait till we get to that one. But I like how that ends as well with, you know, we're going to lure them in. We're gonna lure section 31 to the station. So it does offer some excitement for the future as well. It's run more fire on all cylinders, I think. I think the dialogue is very strong. I think the acting is amazing. Yeah, yeah. And even the direction is pretty good for 90s track in this one too. Well, we should probably watch it, you know. I think we should. All right. I will count us in. Five, 4, 32, one and we're off. Oh, so this is exciting, isn't it? So it's an exciting game. ship, a Geminar ship, it's going to suddenly explode, and then it freezes and goes backwards. That's amazing. Unfortunately, when they freeze it, you can see sort of the cartoon nature of it, but never mind. I think it's really good. So I really, I mean, I just think these guys are great. I'm not so sure about Rasot. Rosat will be back, I think, in Enterprise as a Klingon. And he was in night terrors. He was the only survivor of that ship in Knights era. So he's had some Star Trek before. As a symbol of the old order, though, he works beautifully in the story, you know. Yeah, and he's a proper fascist. I mean, the thing about the about the Cardassians is they're kind of fascist. They've got that incredible monumental architecture and all of that sort of thing. Their respect for law and order, which Wayoon talks about in his scene, which we'll talk about. I think is a really interesting scene. Your opinion, no 1st, I think, was not solicited. Yeah, yeah, yeah He's so fucking arrogant though, isn't he? They're like, they're telling exactly what he should do, and he's breaking every one of the rules. Yeah, yeah. And because she is a Bajoran. He just can't bear that a Bajoran is telling him what to do. Yeah, and every accusation there is kind of an admission, isn't it? Like everything that he says is really what he feels. I do like Damas saying I'm going to give him my support. I thought that was pretty great. And it's basically the whole point at this point, isn't it? Is Demar realising no, in order for us to step forward. I can't give him support. I need to support these people. They're trying to help us build a new future. But that's not something you can come to very quickly, you know changing your life. And I think the way he comes to it is so great. And so I think this is really good too. And watching it, so watching it for the 2nd time, after remembering that Kira knows that he's much sicker than he's letting on is really great because she's obviously trying not to give anything away, but she is telling the audience, I think. I think we can tell from her performance that she knows. Look at that shot. the sort of subtext we don't normally get. Normally there's stuff. Look at how she looks as he wants to spell out in dialogue, isn't it? Yes, exactly. And it will be spelled out. Look at him. He looks ghastly. He looks much ghastlier at the end. I think he looks worse. I think the clever thing is to have the clothing deteriorate and distressed because it's, of course, part of him. And look at Andrew Robinson's reaction when he sees him. Like, it's so perfect. It's so, he's so shocked without being kind of ridiculous without being camp comedy Andrew Robinson. Odo, even when he's deteriorating, he still gets in an insult. How like you to come sneaking in here. Gary. Yeah. But I think, like, I really, really like how this scene ends. Partly because too, like here, the interplay between these two they're finishing each other's sentences. You know, he knows what question. Garak wants to ask, you know, we're getting some much needed, you know, exposition here about his performance and stuff like that about his his deterioration, you know. Yeah, yeah, it's so good. It's so good And it's it's, remember, this is a relationship that has been established. Remember that 2 parter in series 3 and then we saw them hanging out together in series 4 so there is a relationship here. They're both sort of outcasts from their own people, aren't they? that have found themselves on Deep Space 9 and developed a weird sort of a respect for each other. I wouldn't say friendship, but no. Well, there's a moment that I just read as as Garak's respect for Odo. And it's coming. It's coming. It's this reaction where he says, he says something about, you know, like if I, if I don't want the woman I love, have, have, I don't want to accept pity from her, do you think I'm going to, you know, like I want to accept it from you, which is really good. And this, like, I love his line too. Look at him. He's kind of trying to judge whether he should say something and then he does and then he's interrupted, but he's not, he doesn't feel bad about being interrupted. Like, I think this, where he's, he looks at him and smiles. And I think that that's showing respect for what Odo's like as a person. This is what Odo's like. That kind of orneriness is what I like in him and, you know, what I appreciate about a person. I think it's so well done. Well, it's astonishing with Garak, is they've taken this character that it used to turn up to all once or twice a season and just blow our socks off because he was so conniving and manipulative and murderous and all those things that Star Trek characters don't do. And from the start of series 6, he's in probably half the season in 6 and seven. They've made him almost a, they've made that character that doesn't conform to a Star Trek character's role, a regular in a way where we really like him, but he never loses all of those things that we love about him. Yeah, I think they, do they make him a regular in, like, purgatory and Inferno? It starts when he goes on to them to find at the end when they leave the station in call to arms. It's sort of from that point on. But I mean, there is, he is one of the regulars and they do show respect to him, you know, Martoc and all sorts of people say positive things about him, you know, when he's freaking out over you know, being trapped in a confined space. Yeah, in the same breath, you know, you still have episodes like in the Pale Moonlight, where it just stops the most. I'll be along to say hello. And you know that guy's dead. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, he just killed that asshole and then that pretty, the pretty Romulan. Well, I've said this a 1000000 times, but what's happened with DS9 is they spend enough time doing sort of quieter episodes getting us to know those characters in the early seasons. So when they're doing this crazy politicking in the last couple of seasons. The characters are just like they're like perpetuating the stories themselves. They're so strong at this point. I mean, it's also the choice to represent each political group by one character. And so character, stuff, and politics stuff are the same. Just so precisely cast as well. So good. So oh, here we go. Lots of Klingon ships all around, Deep Space 9. Way the warrior all over again. Yeah, it's probably it's probably taken from where the warrior had shock. I think it's worth remembering, again, the twist that Odo got the disease when he was on earth in series 4, that sort of retro rewriting of stuff we've already seen. Massive strength of DS9. Yeah. Yeah. It's the same thing that you end up seeing in Battlestar Galactica isn't it? Where they look back and go, ooh, I think it must have happened here. You know, like as if they're watching the show the way that we're watching it as well as writing it. I think it's really good. Like you get an insight into the writer's room in the documentary when they when they redo the rise room for the potential 1st episode of season 8 and you can see that even all those years later, they love being together and just banding around ideas and character development and you can see how a lot of this sort of bore through back in the day. So this scene is a little bit, I guess it's a scene where the 2 of them have conflict and he's tired and obsessed, but there's a lot of exposition kind of happening here to set up next week, isn't it? Is section 31? The sort of the biggest gift DS 9 gave to future iterations of Star Trek. Well, I mean, they use it in enterprise, don't they? and then they use it in discovery. What, now it's going to be a something? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And then they're then they're doing a spinoff with Michelle Yeoh. I suppose it's that and it's the Dominion as well because of how much it impacted series 3 of Picard. You know, changed things. Yeah, yeah. I, like this, this plot, this very plot of section 31 infecting Odo, you know, you know, that's a catalyst for that, isn't it? Exactly right. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Amanda Plummer's waiting in the wings right now. Exactly, she's. She is. Here we go. No, come on. Don't sigh when Robert O'Reilly's on the screen. He is really funny. He's terrific here. It's the eyes. It's all in the eyes. Yeah the eyes are all there. But also he does a good job with the teeth. I wonder why Klingons always have like perfectly white, lower teeth and horribly yellow front teeth. Do you know, half no tears? It's moving slowly, but the camera hasn't stopped moving in this episode. Yeah, yeah. It's constantly moving. should have been an easy victory. Instead, he's had it as a shameful defeat. I love him. No, he's great. He is great. He is great. No, because then Cisco goes, he fought longer and harder than I ever would have done. Have you heard, you know, how many casualties there were and then Garon just goes as an aside? He's expected to survive. Yeah, that's pretty funny. is pretty great. It's all in the performances, I swear. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. He is he's probably funny as well. And I feel like his out now. in the eyes. They've been chewing up and spitting out this dialogue for so many years. It's just effortless. I mean, later on, I've seen start Swift Martok just going challenge, Gowran, in the middle of a war. I love it. You know what I mean? I like big performances and yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, but I think, like, I think... Martok's popular with the troops, I shan't relieve him of command yet. And then pulls out the eyes again. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Okay, meanwhile, on Cardassia. Now, these scenes used to be fun, right? And I think part of what's really interesting here and part of what's deliberate is that they're not fun anymore. And the one character that we identify with in this scene is Wayoon, even though Wayoon's a terrible person, he's on the back foot, they're both threatening him. They're both dismissing him. She talks openly about killing him. And in fact, that's how she ends the scene with a threat to kill him. It's kind of like keep me informed of when the cloning facilities come back online. Let me know because then I'm going to have you killed and replaced with a much better way in. She underplays all of her dialogue, and yet there is like explicit threat in everything that she says. Yeah, well that's really fun. And then I think the, the Breener introduced here and the way, the way that the, the way the Breener introduced at the end of series 7 to kind of up the stakes and stuff and to motivate all sorts of stuff. is they don't want characters and actors. They don't need any more characters. They don't want to bring anymore. You won't pay anyone, no. No. So they just get some asshole in a suit and and then have them deliver dialogue that all of the other characters in the scene can understand, but we can't so they don't even have to write the dialogue. But that alienates us from this scene. So whereas those scenes were like camp comedy stuff where you had sort of, you know, drunk Damar and and him being needled by, you know, it's kind of like he's lost his playmate a bit now that Damar's grown up and gone off to do, you know, terrorism and stuff. That's just, you're all right. There's an uncertainty to all of it. I just I love her tactics as well. When she goes, put a Kardashian on every facility. So but, you know, so they know that if they're going to turn the tire, they're going to have to murder a lot of their own people in order to do it. And of course, this is obviously building up the big revelation later on that they have actually found Damar's wife and son and killed him. This is her giving orders that that that should happen. And all the stuff about descent will not be tolerated. All of that sort of stuff, all of that Cardassian-like behaviour which then causes demar to reflect on what he's been involved in for his whole career. Super interesting, I think. Well, in the Kardashians in the situation that the Bajorans were in at the start of the series. It's the most interesting creative decision they ever made with the show. Yeah, agree. Yeah, how long before our cloning facilities are operational again? Well, I like the fact, sorry, he tries to make a joke with her. She says your opinion was not solicited in a very threatening way. What she's actually saying is, you're not a fan of it. Shut the fuck up. We're not allowed to have fun with these people anymore. No, that's right. And so we end up feeling sympathy for Wayoon in that scene, which I think is pretty great. Yeah, see, look, did you see that? That scene started. It was high above them. Someone walked across a walkway and then the camera, there's no need to do that at all. A very unconvincing and hastily erected walkway. But even a papier mache. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, this is stock caves at one, isn't it? Like, and they have used that set for kind of rebellion basis or special basis or whatever before. The best set they have for the rebellion is when they go down into Mila's seller. It's the biggest seller you've ever seen in your life and they've got to clean it up in order to hide away there. She goes, you can stay here as long as you tide it up. And Garrett goes, The glamour of being a revolutionary. Oh, fabulous. Oh, yeah. I did think this was maybe a tactical era. We'll take a five man team. The 5 most important people to the rebellion. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but that's Star Trek. It's clearly Star Trek. That's what we do all the time in Star Trek. I would like just one person to say, is that a good idea? They probably would have done a Kursman trick. Yeah. So I also like how Garak has promised not to tell Kira. And of course, the 1st thing he does is go and tell Kira, and he doesn't do it out of from Alice or anything like that, you know he's doing it because it's important for her to know, given that she's just assigned him a job. You know, she needs to know that he's sick and that it could threaten his life to do it. I get it because I understand both Odo and Kira and how much respect they have for each other and why she would respect his wishes in this. I love it. But it frustrates me because I just wish people would talk more often, you know? But the other thing too. The other thing too is that Garak is shocked by this. Don't you think? Like, look how he's playing it. He's genuinely shocked that she knows and she isn't saying anything and she's letting him kind of sacrifice his life kind of allow his illness to progress because she respects his decision probably let him do it to the bitter end, wouldn't she? And do you think that anything else? And he just goes, no, like he's really genuinely shocked. so well played. And that's the end of that act, isn't it? Where she says, no, I know, and I'm going to let him continue to harm himself to make himself sicker and sicker. Give him one shred of dignity. Shred of dignity. It's good. isn't it? Okay, so here is... Marfox in a terrible state. Those pyjamas are awful, aren't they? Oh, good. Yeah, never mind. I feel like they don't have the whole set of Sick Bay there. It looks like a tiny corner set. I think you're right. I think that's the corner where they all recover from their sex capades in looking for Palmark. I have a lot of issues with war sometimes on TNG. I think he just works like gang buses on DS9 at this point. Yeah, he's really good. so relaxed into the role and they're writing for him so well. Do you think that this scene is an answer to the scene at the end of reunion where he's condemned for, yeah, where Picard gives him a dressing down for killing Duras and now we have, now we have Cisco basically telling him to go and deal with going. Love it. And I love the fact that it's all, it doesn't say, say it, does it? It's all implied. He's risking the entire defence and he's got to stop. And, and like, it's not initially hit, like, it's not Worf goes off and says, all right, I better kill Gauron. I mean, he goes off and tries to persuade Martoc to challenge Garon. What a web. He's trying to get someone else to do it. But, you know, like he's a Starfleet officer and stuff. And it's that thing again, just before he kills Duras in reunion. He takes off in what's quite a shocking scene at the time. He takes his communicator off and leaves it on the table in his quarters before taking the bat left off and going onto the Klingon sheer. Well, I think raises the stakes for me. What makes this more interesting than your usual sort of political dramas within the Klingon Empire is it's taking place during the Dominion War at a point where we've learned that only the Klingon ships are immune to the brain weapons. So there are stakes to this. And Garon sacrifice and all of that just because he wants to embarrass Martoc. Yeah, all of that's good. And I think I think, you know, as usual Avery's kind of terrifying in this scene. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Oh my god. Hera's going to beat up Risson now. The line she has when she goes, stop pushing me or I'll make you realise how many nerves you've got in that miserable body of yours. Yeah, because he says to her, oh, look, I have hit a nerve. And because he's so massive and she's tiny. The fact that she... Yeah, fucking head, doesn't he? And I love her delivery as well. Like she's kind of toying with him, isn't she? Like, she's refusing to bite. She thinks he's funny. He's on the back foot, even though he's making these accusations because she's just refusing to take them serious. And then she literally just goes, oh, I'll have time for this and just goes to walk away from him. Yeah, yeah. But then he touches her. Yeah. Straight through. It's a bit of a Star Trek fight, though, isn't it? Seeing Kira beat up anyone? Yeah, it's been good. Can we please just have a moment for an Augusta? And just she's so good in this. Oh, she is. Yeah. But there's more to come. There's some really, really good choices that she makes later on, I think, that it's really something. I think she's great when she's aggressive. I think she's great when she's gentle. When she's accuser to it, she's just everything she does. So he's going to leave and I think just one of the best Andrew Robinson moments ever. He's so funny. It's so funny. So he's going to go off. He's going, oh, I'll get you later. blah, blah, blah. You'll have to do something long before that. He does it from the darkness. He doesn't walk out and say it. So he's delivering the line and then he walks out with shadows on it. It's so funny. It's like, oh, I'm being a mysterious presence again. so ridiculous. It's wonderful. It's just perfectly him. He's just sort of, yeah, you could barely see him. Yeah, yep. And he's like the smile and everything and she's encouraging like he's encouraging her to kill him, isn't isn't he? I really thought when I 1st watched this, that she was going to be the one to kill him. Yeah, so I was quite surprised by the end. Oh, here we go. We're going to have JG Hertzler now. Oh, yeah. Sure now. Klingon stuff. It's treasonous. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I do like as well how much they mock the word due to an honour in this episode. Like we've overused these terms so much now. There's a bit later where Edry goes, it's very honourable and the wharf goes, that's a better term, but it's a bit obvious. Well, I thought I laughed out loud at that because that's what I thought. I thought, oh, this is sort of Star Trek dialogue by the numbers and they decide to hang a hat on it. Because her original line, which is just perfect, Ezri is... it was sweet. Yeah. It was very sweet of him to do that. Worf looks like he's got a bad taste in that sweet. really cute. Terribly cute. Oh, and we have established as well that Martoc was from a poor family in once more onto the breach because Cor wouldn't give him the time of day because he's from a very, you know, a royal family house. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So Martok's sort of anxiety that nobody would take him seriously if he took control. the council. Back on Chronos. Yeah, but like this is, for me, this is like the way you react to techno babble. Do you know what I mean? It's just like, oh, you sound like a Romulan blah, blah, blah. Yeah, okay, right. Um, Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I just think it's great. I do like Wharf playing that very differently. Like the way that he reacts to being accused of being like a Romulan and the way he smiles in response is pretty good. You're not gonna bait me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly right. Exactly right. But I do think that this is a sort of a sort of slightly stupid barrier to overcome. Do you know what I mean? It's like, suddenly Martok is like super honourable and won't do that and it's just like, oh, okay, like, whatever. I do like how it forces me. being in a position of having to make the action at the end. I do too. Animal, it looks so cool fighting. Yeah. in that tiny scent. We're in the runabout now. Oh, here we go. It's not often I say the best scenes are in the runabout, but the best scenes are in the runabout in this episode. Yeah, this is really good this scene. And it's all in the way the 2 main characters in the scene performer, I think. is really good. So we just get a little moment between them. I'm not listening to your bullshit lies anymore. I'm going to get Arachtagino. Yeah, yeah, but she won't call him on it like she absolutely won't call him on it. And then there's this. And so she comes in, Casey Biggs has the thing in his hand. He's just received terrible news. She asks and it's his son, his wife and son. We get that mentioned. And you know what's so interesting is earlier in the season, we saw him with another woman on his arm. He's been abusing his power, forgetting his family, and now they've paid the price. And he, like, she's heartbroken for him. She feels for him and, you know, she closes her eyes and now she's am I going to say this? Am I going to say it? Like we get that shot of her. Am I going to say anything? And she says it. She says, yeah, what people give those orders? He gives too much of a line, doesn't she? But look at that look that he walks up to her. He's kind of got tears in his eyes. She doesn't know how he's going to react. She thinks she's blown it. You know, like, was this the time to make that point when the man's family is dead? And then Andrew Robinson, like Garrett comes in and says, no, that was okay, but just the 2 of them, the way that Demar reacts to that line is so good. And I think there's a moment later, which makes it clear that that is the confrontation that causes him to decide to kill Rasad. to point out for me. just a suspense in that moment. His reaction. And when he comes out, isn't it? And because she goes, I've blown this, I fuck this up. He's not gonna, you know, because there's so much at stake. But you need... The entire backstory of D Space 9, the Joran Kardashian conflict their relationship where they were in series 6 for all of that to land. Yeah. So it just goes to show this long form storytelling and character arcs. Great reward. Yeah, it gives the actors something to do, I think. That was a very deep space night shot there with everybody in the shot across the runabout in various positions, so the camera could just point in one direction and they're all there. We've arrived at the space station, everybody. The Cardassian shuttle looks like it was clipped from a previous episode as well. This is amazing. So, so I, I think that where I've heard this scene before is on Star Trek the Next Generation, where Picard and is it, is it in reunion, or it's at the end of reunion, isn't it, where he says, Um Duras is gone. You're accepting this commendation for the sake of this empire, and there's something wrong with his empire, why are you doing this? It's either... Do anything about it in that one. In redemption, you know, like, like, so we've had this point made to wharf before, that if he's discommended while everyone knows that it was Duras's father who did the kid and the thing with the Romulans or whatever, then this is a corrupt empire. So this is stuff that we've been going over for 7 years now essentially, with this character. Once again, though, this rewards on a couple of levels, because we've been through a whole journey with Worf and Ezri to the point now where they can sit down as 2 mature adults. I don't have this conversation where she is brutally honest with him in her own gentle way, but basically say, I think the Klingon Empire deserves to die. And to say that to a Klingon who's totally invested in the Klingon Empire, that's a big deal. And also she does it in sort of psychological terms as well. She talks about symptoms and stuff, you know, like because she's a counsellor, she's a psychologist, and that's super interesting, and she is different from, we get a mention of Jadia. She brings it down to a level that we understand because we know Worf is as vulnerable where she thinks he is because we've been with him all this time. And she says, if you're willing to accept this, what help is there for the rest of the empire, you're willing to accept this corruption. I really like it. I like the dialogue here. Yeah, yeah. pointed. I like how honest it is. It is a well-written version of this scene, but it is a scene that Ron Moore has written before, I think. And at the point of redemption, you didn't have the stakes you have here. No, no, no, no. I agree. I agree. But that's why I think that this is the 2nd best plot of the episode. And you don't have the conclusion. Redemption, it's just you have the scene and then they just let it keep going. Whereas Wolf here just goes, all right, enough. We've done this bullshit for too long now. Let's get him out of the way and forge a new future. Yeah. Oh, here we go. Is that Kardashian space station? Look at that Kardashian station. It looks so good. And you instantly know it's Kardassian that uses heaps of the diff you know, the same design features that deep space 9 does. It's not just, you know, shooting Deep Space 9 from a different angle and calling it Mpoc Nor. Does we do a... And the camera comes in and it comes under the Gemadar ship to give it scale. to the Jadar ship as well. But we also, we also park our little ship near the Jem'Hadar ship so that we know where we're going. Like it tells the story there. Here is our Nazi friend. from the killing guy. Does he only get this one scene? He only gets this one seen. I do like the way he knows who they are. good luck looking. Yeah, yeah, he knows that it's Damar, which I think is really interesting. Because if the Jem'adar intelligence is pretty poor, though. They don't know who these people are. Well, yeah, that's right. I mean, fucking Demar's face was all over every screen at the end of the changing face of evil. Yeah, the Cardassians all look the same. I like the fact that it's your stock DS9 corridor as well, you know? Yeah, well, they can just use that as a Kardashian. they, don't they? Well, like I said, it's a step up from Mpok Nor, I think, where we even use the same model. But yes. But in a minute, right? The scene where they go in. It works on 2 levels for me. One is brilliant because you've got Kitty Swink there. camping it up as the female water and we don't get too many of that. Let me try this too. You think that Damar is about to take the handcuffs off her, don't you? Like, she stops there with his back, but then they drop off and she was never, do you know what I mean? She was never imprisoned. I thought that was super interesting. And then you get the extra thing where it's Odo, which I think is pretty great. Here's Mrs. Shimmerman. Oh, wonderful. As the voice. Why are you bringing her to me? Well, then I love it when Salome Gens comes in as the female shapes did. Obviously it's Odo in disguise. Yeah, yeah. I see the new plasma rifles have been deployed. No, she says one, please. my rifle. Cheers. Here she is. And then like I said earlier, Garak still Garak, so he murders everybody on the bridge, you know? And nobody really bats an eyelid. No, and I think that's kind of okay. Like, I agree with him. There's a moment, I'm not quite sure what they're doing exactly. So we, I think we know this is Odo, don't we? Because we saw the, like if we were paying attention, we know this is Odo. Otherwise, why is she here? Why should she not? Look, we know when she asks to see the weapon and then gives it to Garak. No, but that's just happened now, but I think we knew already when she comes in. I think he's trying to convince us because it shows scenes between them all sort of looking at each other like, what the hell is she doing here, you know? Yeah, yeah. But like I think that's great. Go for it. And but why is she reacting like that? Do you know what I mean? No, no, because then we cut to Odo and Odo, we cut to Odo saying... If you have floss life was terrible. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think, you know, like it's war, screw it. kill them. But we are in a very different place to where we were in TNG right? Where this is accepted. Yeah yeah. If Picard was here, imagine, you'd be like eulogising them all. Yeah, but I mean, that's the thing. We can't lock them up. And that makes them seem more desperate, obviously. Like, and that's why that's being done there because they're in a very scary situation. This twist is so great. The fact that they haven't fitted the weapon yet and they have to spin this out for another half an hour. That's when we go to the ad break off. You're asked to camp it up as the female voice. This is Luaran. Go ahead. It's really funny the way that all of the female aliens on 90s Star Trek look like just American ladies and various, like, they have sort of American lady hair, and this one's called Loaren which seems like an American lady name. I feel like she's been watching a bit of campy sci-fi, Kira because she goes, at one point she goes, excellent. So good. She's terrifically good. But the zoom in on her as we cut to the ad break is wonderful. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, so, uh, yes. So later on, they flood the ship with neurazine gas, and I wondered whether they were killing them all, because it is full of gemhadar, isn't it? Don't they kill them all? I don't think we hear about them again. No, because I, I obviously research Neurazine gas on memory alpha and the doctor uses it to knock out the inhabitants of a Romulan ship. Is there an entire article? I of the needle. It only gets mentioned twice. Neurosene gaskets mentioned in Voyager and here, and it knocks you out. So they're not going to kill all of the Jemhadar here, but they're just going to render them unconscious until they get the, you know ship to federation space. There it was. That end of scene with Kira going. Yeah, yeah. We're dead. But I love that. I absolutely buy that. I think it's a really, really good twist. And it makes the whole thing really tense. So they've got to kind of prevaricate. It's so weird, isn't it? Because so little. There's just Kira from the regulars in that entire plot. And yeah, it's the most riveting thing happening. Yeah. Well, because all the other characters are super interesting and they're strong secondary characters. Oh, I love this. Brian coming in, just going, oh, forget it. You might have been a bastard. Don't worry about it, you know. I'm a huge fan of characters just forgiving one another and not being dicks about it. It's just like, yeah, you know, you're in a mood and you're worried about Odo and... I would be a fan of crab rolls if I wasn't allergic to crustaceans. I would not be a fan of crab rolls despite, yeah. I can't even try them. Well, crab is a lot of effort to go to to get a very small amount of meat, I think. It's really not that great. We are discussing how to lure Sloan to the station so they can find a cure for the disease, which is nice because it does give us a chance to bring that character back who has been really successful. And and the funny thing is that he does get mentioned in dialogue but not in the subtitles of the version that I'm watching. Um, he, his name doesn't appear, but he is mentioned by name. They speculate that Sloane might come. And so this is an episode that kills Sloan that next week's episode, but they're wandering around in his dying mind or something. I love the repeated joke they do that every time Sloan comes on the station. He's always sitting there watching Bashir sleeping in the dark. So in every episode that Sloan's in. That's how he's introduced. He's just sort of sitting there watching him. He's like, ah, doctor, you're awake. Time for our mission. Oh, this is my. I do love this scene Yeah. Oh, Penion 5. So, so we've brought one of their tables. We've got a Klingon table here with like some rusty light underneath. Yeah, but it's like got rusty iron grill or whatever. No one else says anything. There's some lady Klingons here, which is a nice change, but none of them say anything. 15 battles, cruises, well, barely scratched that defences, Nathan. Would it have been, would it have been interesting to try and motivate Martoc? To kill him? No, it's got to be wrong. It's got to be because it's been Worf story. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, yeah. I love the plan that even when he stabs Gower on, he still gets one last line out, doesn't he? You will not have this. And he can't quite say day. He's sorry. He doesn't, it's a meaningless line. It's kind of like I'm trying to get it, you know, some hilarious thing, but I don't manage it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, but he can't get he never gets the line out because he's dying which is kind of great. So he doesn't even get one final zinger at the end of it. I don't think this is a terrible fight, though. I know it's a small room. I think it's well done. It's the small room. I think it is, I think it's a good fight and I think... I like the fact they're shooting through that glass quite a bit. It just gives it, it looks visually a bit different. Exactly. And, and, you know, like we've talked about how fist fights are a cheap way of getting action onto a Star Trek show, but throwing him through the thing and having, you know, like a stunt double and all of that sort of thing happening. Like that's a bit more exciting, I think. And I think I remember as well, somehow, I must have seen a next week on Deep Space 9 trailer that included that scene of him being thrown through the glass because I remember that as being striking. It's just worth remembering at this point as well, just how many regular semi-regulars they are juggling at the moment. how they're having to bring all these characters to a point where they can conclude their stories. whilst continuing to tell the Dominion War story this season as well. So it's interesting. Like, it's a lot of work to do. The meetings must have gone on forever. It's really good. So he takes his he takes his thing off again, like he did in reunion. Now we're going to do the fight with the batlifts, just like we do... I do too. And remember the fight with Duras was interesting because it was like, oh my god, it's Star Trek the Next Generation, and they're solving their problem through violence. Like, and something actually happens. You know, like they don't come in and stop them. Like you're expecting them to come in and stop him. And the fact they come in, the door opens and he just sort of lands the batlet in the guy's neck. We've got no doubt at all that nobody's coming to stop this. Yeah, he's been given permission. coming in to stop this. Now we're going through the window. So he picks up the little knives. insane, Gower on his during this fight. Yeah, yeah. Is he? There we go. Three, two, one. Stunt double through the glass. That is a fabulous shot. I love that. It is pretty great. We slow it down a bit. Yeah. And then this, which is exactly how he kills Duras, isn't it? He raises the bat length above his head and just brings it down into girass's throat, but and girass is on the ground. Um, but now wharf's in that same position, but he actually manages to kill Gareth Gareron from there. I might be on this if you want. I actually think the music's great in this scene as well. There's like a mad drum beat going on that's giving it a lot of energy and a lot of pace. Yeah, and this way back from series one from Heart of Glory, that thing, and you know, having Worf do it again to the man he's just killed. I think is pretty great. Yeah, I love this, how... The cloak. It shows you how easily it can go from one person to another. Walk goes, no, I don't want to do that. You know, you have a question. That sounds like a lot of work to me, you know? yeah that's right. Look all the badges on it. Jesus Christ. So is the idea that this is okay because he does it not to gain power, but to, for the the sake of the, you know, reading the empire of corruption. And so the fact that he hands it on. That's why he doesn't. Although, I do like the fact that in what you leave behind. um Wharf goes with him, doesn't he? He says, I want an ambassador from the Federation. Come on, come and live on Chronos with me. Yeah, but that doesn't happen. He turns up in the next film. Yeah. And then Picard and it does so. What they call the Fengus Warriors or something? No, can't remember. Confederus, the federus, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, I can't remember. Oh, here we go. Back to the Dominionship. Yeah. Although one last word for that last storyline. The bit where he goes, I am not the man to usher in this day, but there is one man here who I could just see you guys. Oh, God. Talk normally. Oh, my God. See, these episodes now is thinking about what your reaction is certain dialogue. If they'd been if they'd been long scenes delivered in very slow Klingon, I would have been there. How great titles. They sat on this for out and now in the middle of a suspense scene where they got to get out of there, the virus hits him and they have to talk about it. Yeah, it's really good and he looks much worse here and also I like that they don't show us it happening. They don't do a cheesy thing. It happens like that between shots. We just cut and he looks like that. It's really great. This scene now where they're all pointing guns at each other. is like, what the hell is going to happen here? You know? And it really feels like this whole rebellion is just over because there's just gums everywhere. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think if we're paying attention, we know how this is going to play out, though. Garak, though, I'm still here, Brassut. With a gun. You goes, you're not going to shoot one of your own kind. How little you understand me. Andrew Robinson can do these one-liner brilliant. So good. So good. Yeah, you know, you are right. Actually, as a scene progresses, it is very clear how this is going to end. Yeah, yeah, but it is very good and they do sort of, and look at that close-up of Damar thinking because he's trying, like, he's reacting to how unpersuasive. He finds this speech. Look at him. He's reacting to Rissant speech being unpersuasive, whereas once it would have been persuasive, and I think it is that moment. I think it's that moment. Look at the psychotic zeal in Garak's eyes as well who's like, ah what's going to happen here? You know, he's loving it. It's also a little bit cheesy that, you know, he shoots. We don't know who someone falls to the ground and then we go, oh it's the most disposable person in the side. I do like the line though. His Cardassian is dead and it's not coming back. I do like that. drawing a line under. Look at that. Look at that look that he gives her and that she gives him. Like, I think that that's him saying that's him acknowledging that she was right. Don't you? Like, I don't think I'm over... Why is that what they're saying? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that's absolutely what they're doing. And so, so she has persuaded him to kill Rasot, just as Ezri persuades, uh, wharf to kill Gauron. And on a completely another level, the fact that they have taken this ship means now that they do have immunities in a brain weapon. So it does, you know, there's a reason for doing it. It's not just an action piece for nothing. No, that's right. Everything is very well kind of crafted, I think. Oh, I think this is beautifully acted this ending where she comes over to come for him. I'm saying, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and he doesn't. And he covers her, doesn't he? He says Marie... He says, don't, just be with me. I think offset that to people before, you know? Yeah, but that's it is. Don't pity me. Just sit here. And I also like her, she says, no, I knew. Obviously, I knew. you know. And that's, you know, once he admits to it, she's willing to admit to it. But she's not going to make him admit to it, and that's how she shows respect and love for him. I think it's really good. And you know, you shouldn't be able to watch a scene where 2 people this close with that ghastly makeup is this touching, but it really is. Yeah, the makeup is kind of... We do, we just love Odo, though, don't we? Yeah, yeah. Oh, look at, look at... That's beautiful. Gorgeous. She's so good. Jesus Christ, she's great. Man, they're foreign on all cylinders at this point. I think they are. It's really good. They really great. And there's only what, 3 more to go, isn't it? Yep. Extreme measures, dogs of war and what you leave behind. yeah. And yeah, within those three, there's enormous development. still happen where this close to the end there's still a lot to do. What will happen with Dukat and win? Oh, yeah, who can say? the only point where no answer the last 10 very exciting. Then I'll stop you. Are you still here? Emissary? The book? It's so great. Although, and it is worth noting, though, that whilst some elements of that could be considered soapy, that's played much more like a drama, this episode, compared to the changing face of evil, that's far more like a drama. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is properly serious, I think. And both, you know, both the A and the B plot are probably serious. I mean, the C plot is a little bit disposable, but it's so that we don't have to have those scenes in next week's episode and so that Miles and Julian have something to do in this week's episode, I guess. Well, then I'm going to ask you, so we've covered Imogen the Sand shadows and symbols. Take me out to the hola suite, but I've beaten that a bang. Treachery faith from the great river. Change your face of evil, now tacking into the wind. I know you didn't like siege of AR 558 so much. No. Is DS9 going out on a high? Oh yeah, I think this is a very, very good episode. And I also think they're managing a lot of things and doing quite a good job of it. I think they've set themselves a high bar, but they've really properly worked. to make sure that everything kind of fits together and that everyone gets a decent payoff. And like I didn't really enjoy the B plot of this episode all that much. But I think it is the right way to go out. You know, it's going out the way that you came in rounding that off. And we don't need Worf to do any particular character things for the rest of the show. His arc is kind of finished, and obviously he's got more to do in the next 3 episodes, but that's a good way of rounding it off. So we've sorted wharf. And I think we've kind of sorted Damara. I know that he's in the final episode as well. But like we've done something proper with Damar. All of that stuff is really good. And I'm not sorry, the way that other people are, that we stopped to do, take me out to the hola suite and better being better bang during this season, that it wasn't all this, that even though Star Trek decided we're going to do this. We're going to do this war thing. We still stop to have fun. And I think, you know, out of that list of season 7 episodes that we've done, I still think that Take Me Out to the Holo Suite is my favourite as a piece of TV. I just think it's terrific. I think they time those episodes well. They do take me out to the hollow suite just after that big 3 part end of series 6, beginning of series 7, and then the bada bing bada bang, just before the 10 episode. And end it with a song, which is called the best is yet to come. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was just reading this week, actually, a bit of trivia about that where Ira Bear went, have you heard Avery Brooks's singing voice? Why did I put Captain Cisco singing a song? He goes, I knew I had to do it at some point in the series and this was my last shot. So we're doing it. Oh, he's so good. Sometimes being indulgent is absolutely okay. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. But yeah, there's there's really not too much to complain about that. I don't think there's a better episode after this, though. I feel like Extreme Measures is probably the weakest of the last 10. The Dogs of War is great, but it's got the Ferengi plot and the Cardassian plot and Tony, they're fighting each other quite a bit because it's very funny and very dramatic at the same time. What you leave behind, I think, is a glorious ending, but there's just a few block conclusions that don't entirely land as well as they should. But as a whole, I think season 7 of DS9 is one of the best years of Star Trek. It's certainly one of the most substantial years of Star Trek. All right, it's the end of the episode and it's time for us to learn what we're doing next time in episode 101 and the choice is mine. Do you want to ask me what we're doing? I would like to ask you what we're doing. Yes. We are doing Star Trek from the 1960s. So that means the original series. Is the animated series the 60s? Probably not. That's from the 70s, but it is the 70s, yeah, because we finish in 1969. It's the long 60s. So we'll do. You should put in strange new Wales and do that whole period. You know, that's... I don't want to, I don't want to use up straight to you worlds too early. So good, good. I know, I know, I know it's so great. We could do discovery if we're doing the period as well. We haven't done that for a while. We've done a fair bit of 90s trek. So let's see what we get. The Galileo 7. We cover this episode in episode 84. It's wonderful. Monkey Men. The cage. So that's the pilot, the 1st pilot. The original pilot. Ooh, that could be interesting. should do a bit of digging into the changes that were made and why. Yeah. What do you think? It's the 1st one. It is like the one we did uh for Discovery. I can't remember memory serves. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Memory, sir. It is very worthy and a bit. It is very worthy. And you know what? a lot of fun with TOS. Yeah. All right. Let's see if we can manage that Bem, episode 74. Oh, that was a classic. Obsession. What's that? I have no idea. I think I've even heard of an episode called Obsession. That's not a good sign. Hang on. I'll have a look. Kirk becomes convinced that a deadly gaseous cloud is an intelligent being. That sounds like every 2 is episode. The same that killed 200 crew members aboard the USS Farragut on which Kirk served 11 years earlier. 3.5 stars out of four. Oh, okay. It'll be terrible then if Jeremy gives it 3.5 . Or just sort of try it. Very serious, you know? He says the plot is tight, the use of characters is effective and the punchy finale is exciting. Yeah, I think that, no, I'm not convinced. That's going to be the case. It does actually sell it to me more, I think. I think we should do it. It's kind of weird. I mean, when it came up, it was literally, I have never heard of a Star Trek episode, God, Obsession. So I know nothing about this at all. If it's about a gas cloud, then I am getting happy, happy memories from Lonely Among Us, which also featured a sentient gas cloud. And there's been so many characters throughout the Star Trek franchise that I've been obsessed about. There's probably about 50 episodes you could call Obsession. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The one with the crystalline entity and that crazy woman in it, the one with the court case with Admiral Satay in it. You could have called that obsession. Yeah, yeah, she's obsessed. Seven of 9 gets obsessed with those conspiracy theories on Voyager. The feeling it's Captain Kirk that's obsessed in this episode. Yep, with a gas cloud. I think I'm there. I think Captain Kirk is obsessed with a sentient cast cloud, has sold that. And like a whole bunch of William Shatner just sounds like an enticing prospect to me. All right. I think we definitely do it. That's no one. Yeah. You've been listening to Untitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford and Nathan Bottomley, where online at Untitled Star Trek Project com, where you can find subscription links and links to our social media accounts. Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceran, and the theme was composed by Cameron Lam. This episode was recorded on the 27th of February 2024 and released on the 8th of March. We'll see you next time for Star Trek, the original series Obsession. Don't you love it in this when Kira has to pretend to be the vorter? And she's going... Hang on. She's going... She's doing a sexy thing, but she's also doing her weird haulty alien thing, which I think is really funny. She's great. But yes, she's being the secretary. We get a fabulous sort of close-up. If they don't finish the brain weapon inside. then we're dead. I really like that thing, though. I know that's cheesy as hell but that absolutely landed with me. I think it's so good. I know such a great twist. I'm not sure. he's doing differently, but some of that handheld camera work. Who is it? It's, uh, it's the best director they got at this point. Yeah, he's brilliant. He did change the face of evil as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But he's sort of doing this really interesting sort of handheld camera work where I'm like, is that a POV shot? I not sure what's happening. It's just more interesting than what I normally see on this show you know? Yeah, yeah. So this is 2 episodes after changing Face of Evil. What happened the episode before this? So when it, when it rains is between this, and that's the episode where, um, Ducat and Win. Um, she's like, you can't look at this book and he goes to look at it and he's blinded and she chucks him out. She strays him out. a beggar. And it's also where Bashir starts doing and he realises that the Section 31 engineered the virus. Isn't that this episode, no? No, well, he's already, he already knows that. Oh, yeah. So that's that's that episode as well. And it's the episode that brings in Gow as well. And Garron's initially like, you know, if you're a friend of Martok, then you're a friend of mine to wharf after, you know, like his 2nd discommendation. And that wonderful bit where, what is that in this one? they all blow into one. where it's the Klingon ceremony and Cisco goes to boring Admiral Ross. Oh, we're next, by the way, or whilst they're all cutting their hands. And Roscoe's. Abir Rosco's, you're joking. And then there's a big close-up on his face like, oh, shit. And he goes, oh, it still stings. Oh God. Barry. Fucking Barry. He's dead now. He is dead. Yes, day mortal, you snill, nissy bon on my note, but nevertheless. All righty. Okay, we'll go in. In we go. Hey, Joe. Hi.