Hey, Joe. Hi.
So, we are back sooner than we expected with Star Trek, the Next
Generation, and this is Star Trek in its imperial phase, which is
roughly speaking, seasons three, four, and five.
How do you think this stacks up with your expectations last week?
Well, were my expectations last week?
I was inter...
I was quite positive when this popped up on the randomiser.
You did say that they were aliens in it that would give the Boma a
run for their money, so I'm not quite sure what was happening
there.
I must have been misremembering.
Yeah Well, I figured there were some weird designed aliens in
this.
And in fact, no, it's our standard humanoid aliens in boring
costumes spouting a load of dull technobabble.
I mean, they were as dull as the Beaumont.
Does that count?
They're the people that Mariner makes fun of all the time on lower
decks, you know, the sort of science colonist people who all wear
the same jumpsuits and stuff.
And so it's...
It's what they have in Lois Decks, where they always talk about
you know, 0 my god, we need to get there to stop this impending
disaster.
That's these people that they're talking about, you know?
Yeah exactly.
So this is a very Star Trek the Next Generation episode.
And it's really, really a bit run of a meal, and I don't think
that the conceit is quite enough to lift it out of that.
It doesn't quite work.
I said to you in a message whilst I was, I was sort of giving
Nathan a running commentary as I was going through this.
Oh, very unimpressed comments.
You could tell the tone, right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I knew you could.
You were given very considered answers.
And I think this could have been fantastic if this wasn't a Star
Trek, the next generation episode because it is a fun premise.
The idea of somebody from the future, coming back to the past
which is what they run with for two-thirds of the airport.
No, more than that, about 90% of the episode.
That's a really fun idea.
Trouble is, is it's married to our stock TNG lot of, oh dear, this
planet is having an environmental disaster.
And this is the catastrophic event that somebody from the future
has come to watch.
It's not thrilling enough to convince me at any point that this is
a point in the past that somebody would come to visit or to
study.
Yeah, but we find out that it isn't that, and that's part of the
thing, and, you know, But it's supposed to try and trick us
right?
Convince us.
Yeah, well, yeah, part of the problem is that Matt Frewer isn't
really coming back into the past to study this pivotal event.
He just turns up here when they happen to be doing something
really quite terribly routine.
And although that B plot actually escalates and is kind of
designed to create a situation where Picard needs the time
traveler's knowledge where he's got a really risky decision to
make.
He has to question the prime directive again, doesn't he?
you know?
Which is a good scene.
Yeah, I think that is a good scene.
But otherwise, it doesn't see, I think Star Trek the Next
Generation at this point has raised the floor so that we never go
quite as bad as anything in series one and two and has found a
kind of groove.
Like, it's found something for the crew to do.
Like we're not at war.
We're not always going to meet aliens that we have to fight.
That's not what this show does.
And so it tries to imagine what this ship should do.
And this is now the 2nd season 5 episode that we've done that has
the crew encountering a planet that's facing an environmental
catastrophe caused by space rocks or something.
Is it ever done in a particularly gripping fashion ever?
No.
And what I appreciated about this.
I mean, this is just a day at the office for them, right?
And this would have been more interesting if it hadn't been a day
at the office for them, I think, if he'd come at a more climactic
moment.
But he doesn't really, he just comes to a really kind of boring
adventure, I think.
That's the trouble.
I was like constantly being told or being made aware that
something truly startling was going to happen because he's sort of
looking at his watch, staring at the ceiling and they keep going
what, what?
And it's like, oh, you'll find out, you'll find out.
So I'm thinking, right, great.
So this might be boring, that something incredible is going to
happen in this plot.
When the episode ended and nothing did.
I was like, what the hell was that?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And it's just poor bastard turns up like on history's most routine
day on the enterprise D and has to kind of big it up.
I said to you as well, I just don't buy, and I know, I know it's a
it's a lie, but again, we are supposed to be convinced that it's
the truth, that he is from the future.
I don't buy that he would come and study Captain Picard, you know
the dullest captain in Starfleet.
Now, if he turned up on a particularly great TOS episode, and
we're studying Captain Kirk, who's unpredictable, and, you know
that makes a lot of sense.
He's an exciting character.
I can understand somebody from the future going, all right, let's
go this troublemaker.
Let's go and see what's Captain Picard, really?
You know, he starts pacing his office and going, oh, 7 metres
amazing.
They've got it exactly right in the in the future, you know.
Yeah, yeah, God.
You're right. constrained by the formula of this show.
It can't take this idea and do something wild with it.
It just wants to play out a regular TNG episode and then throw in
a like an okay twist at the end.
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, in a sense, you know, the premise where someone from
the future comes to study them is almost series breaking, isn't
it?
Like it's potentially a thing that breaks the premise of the
show.
And remember that when we watched TOS, we didn't really know when
it was set, I don't think.
I don't think they were ever particularly clear about it.
And now we've decided that it's set 300 years after it's
broadcast.
But I think that we only realise what century we're in when Star
Trek the Next Generation decides that it's the 24th century.
And it could have done any century and it chose to go sort of 90
years ahead with some different technology and staff.
And so the future is only something that exists at this point in
Star Trek.
There's no real future in TOS because TOS isn't really set at any
particular time.
And so this is the 2nd time we've had people from the future.
I think we've had them at the beginning of Captain's holiday.
Those aliens, they were pretty dull as well.
Yeah, they were.
That's right.
They were the dullest part of that.
And so it is something that is potentially interesting.
It's not a bad idea, but what they come up with is so kind of
boring. and he's just, he's going to steal a bunch of tricorders
and flogg them on eBay when he gets back to the 22nd century.
It's not that interesting.
What is so obvious.
Well, there's, yeah, the director is not holding anything back.
So we see him.
It's sort of language shots, pocketing trike orders and things
like scientific equipment and you're going, well, what's
something's going to happen here then, you know?
Whereas that bit at the end might land a bit better if there had
been no indication at all the way through.
Yeah.
No, no, no, no, no.
We got to be clever.
We got to show the audience.
And then they go, oh, that's what all that was about.
Okay.
And so there's no twist, really, essentially.
He's just Nick and stuff.
And like, we'll talk about it as we go through the episode.
But, yeah, it's well known that Robin Williams was originally
supposed to start in one of his big movies he was doing at the
same time, which meant he couldn't.
But this was written specifically for him.
Matt Thruer steps in from Matt's headroom.
Is that right?
Yeah.
And, um, he's all right in the role, but he accentuates all the
annoying parts of the role and doesn't really bring any charm.
And I said to you off, Mike.
If Robin Williams had done this, he's such a sophisticated comedy
actor.
I think he would have made that character a bit darker and a lot
more likeable as well.
It would have been a more interesting guest character. if
probably.
Yeah, I think I think through, he's leaning into being irritating
and he does it really well. succeeds.
Yeah, he does.
And I particularly like how unimpressed Troy is by him.
I think that's awesome.
Anytime she's a bit of a bitch, I love it.
Yeah, well that's the best thing about it.
She's normally so well behaved and here she just thinks he's a
prick and makes no secret of it.
I like on paper the idea that Beverly Crusher is a bit wooed by
this man from the future.
But not too wooed, is she?
But she's sort of playful with him and it leans into Gates
McFadden doing the best acting that she does, which is when she's
just the person.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, no, she's great bits for her here.
Oh, some really fun bits, yeah.
Well, I suppose we better watch this thing, even though we have
declared it very dull.
Yeah, I think we'd better.
All right.
I'd say our job.
It is.
Okay.
Al Kenneth in?
Five, four, three, two, one, and we're off.
Here we go.
Stock encounter a car point shop.
Yeah, exactly the opening shot of the show as usual.
Although I'm always shocked when I go back and watch these T edgy
episodes because they're just so crisp in HD.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So this actually wins an Emmy for outstanding individual
achievement in special visual effects, and it comes equal with
conundrum, which, do you remember that?
It's a high concept one where someone turns up on the ship and
they're...
Oh, it's a big puzzle that got us sort out, isn't it?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Outstanding special effects.
Are you talking about that window we keep looking out on the
planet?
suggests the different climates we're seeing.
It's the same window from the masterpiece society.
Yeah.
Yeah, no, I mean, because because this is trying to sell something
that that is kind of real science.
So when we objected to the technobabbler a couple of weeks ago
when we were doing faces and there were whole scenes that were
just technobabble trying to explain why the B plot on the ship
wasn't going to interact with the A plot anytime soon, you know
because... so bad.
And so what we have here, this ship, this planet has been kind of
struck by asteroids or something, I've quite like this little ship
don't you?
No, I refuse to believe spaceships in the future look that
boring.
It looks like a screw.
It is, come on now.
It will turn up over and over again, I think.
We're used to the Klingon cruises, you know, and the Romulan ships
and things like that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, but they can't build one of those in the studio
though.
We'll get to it, but the insides even better.
I love the inside.
I was getting proper enterprise vibes from the inside.
Sorry, you was making a point about Technobabble.
Well, so here what we have is, you know, we explain that this
planet is undergoing a nuclear, like a nuclear winter because of
all the particles in the air.
And our solution is to drill into the mantle of the planet to
release some carbon dioxide, which we know will retain the heat
and then give them time to deal with things.
And then there turns out there's some tectonic instability around
the drill sites that they weren't expecting.
And all of that makes sense.
It's not technobabble.
It is just them doing their jobs.
And what we need.
Should we be watching that to do?
Yes, because that's Star Trek the Next Generation.
Heap, I think, of the pleasure of Star Trek, the Next Generation
is watching the competent people solve the space problems. when
things go wrong and there's drama and character and...
Yeah, yeah, yeah, those things happen. always happens, though.
I mean, that always does happen and here it sort of happens.
I'd rather more wrong.
A few episodes back, we had disaster.
And the game, you know?
Crazy high concept episodes.
I'd much rather watch like fun like that than them drilling the
core of this planet.
But I think that only happens that we've got that boring
background for the other plot to play against.
So we have a... supposed to be a lot of fun.
Yeah, we have a day at the office that is interrupted by this
potentially series breaking encounter with the future, I think.
You know what's interesting as well?
I, in every single scene with Matt Fruer.
I can see Robin Williams there doing it.
I can sort of take him out and put Robin Williams in.
So that bit there where he was like, oh, Captain, can you move to
the left?
And he beams onto the bridge.
I mean, it's a shit joke.
But Robin Williams would have sold it if it'd have beamed onto
that bridge, you know?
Yeah.
You were exactly where I needed to be. you know.
I wonder whether he would really have ever done it.
I mean we know that he didn't.
And he wasn't filming Hook at the same time.
He'd just come off hook.
He was a big fan that he was tired.
Okay.
Yeah, it would have been it would have been pretty amazing.
If you think about the people who guessed it on original track and
how embedded that became in our culture.
And this version of Star Trek, whatever you say about it, is the
version that more people watch than any other version.
This point is a zeitgeist and then some.
People were probably clamouring to get on it at this point. so
much exposure.
And, you know, even I would probably suggest that the Robin
Williams things was golf.
But then I think, wait, Whoopi Goldberg took a guess, you know, a
guest starring regular role on this show.
So it could attract big names.
And I think probably the regulars would have acted against Robin
Williams more interestingly as well.
Do you know, in HD?
I can see every fibre on the carpet on those walls.
Oh, it's terrible, would it?
He does make comments about the architecture, doesn't he?
and things like this.
Yeah, yeah, but like the stupid painting on the wall.
You know what it means?
It just needs a really witty writer and every one of these lines
needs to be a zinger.
Yeah, I don't want to cast too much shade, but that ain't Rick
Berman.
I've sat for enough. only enterprise episodes to know that.
Yeah, what is it?
He's not charming, is he?
He's not charming.
Is that it?
He is annoying.
He's sort of got a particular American flavour of annoying
happening.
These roguish characters.
It can go 2 ways, can't it?
They're either going to be.
We're going to be completely on side with them or we're just going
to be really annoyed by them and I'm generally annoyed by them.
Yeah, and is he is he trying and failing because, I mean, that is
that sort of cute, that thing where he's doing the steps across
the thing and then turns to him and goes, I'm right and it's dumb
as hell.
Like historians don't really fight over how many metres someone's
offices or which side of the table they sit on, which is
apparently something that is known to the future.
Like, it doesn't make any sense.
No, incisive wit.
Do you normally sit at that side of the table?
Yeah, yeah.
It's more of our non-jokes that we were talking about.
It's a whole episode packed full of.
That's it.
In fact, you could show this to the rights of lower decks and say
this is precisely how not to do it.
Don't do it.
Yeah.
But I mean, lower decks, you know, its version of what their job
is as Starfleet officers is just this, isn't it?
It's you go to a planet which is experiencing an environmental
catastrophe, you do space things and try and fix it.
Like, that's what the show's about.
Very knowingly.
They take the piss out of all of this while still stroking it very
affectionately.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
But, I mean, I kind of, I like that.
And there is, there is something about, the nerdy sciency
engineering thing about it that I think, you know, brought people
on board and certainly did with original Trek as well.
You know, there's not much like this, I think.
I just had a very dark thought.
What's that?
That we do have to sit through 7 seasons of incredibly worthy Star
Trek in order for the jokes to land in lower decks.
It was worth going through all of this.
Well, fortunately, we had done it anyway.
You know, so we were kind of fine.
Oh, here's Deanna being fucking useless.
I can't tell whether he's not telling the truth.
Even though he's a confidence trick star.
Just a human being, it turns out, you know.
That's right. particularly useless.
There's a scene in a minute, right?
It really does remind me of how simple some of the writer is on
this show where she goes, oh, they do Turin plague.
You can let us know in the future, whether, you know, we sold this
medical issue.
And then Rasmussen goes, ah, how interesting, how everybody
channels, you know, interesting, different things about the future
you know given what their job is.
And then we go to Rikers and then we go to war and then he says it
again.
Ah, do you know it?
How wharf, it's exactly what I'll send you early.
Yeah, he's into weapons.
And this out anymore to me.
Oh, in it.
Like, you know, a little subtlety would be nice.
Oh, I know.
And they can do it.
They can do it because we watched Darmok this year.
So it's not like they can't, they can't.
No, no, no, of course.
I quite like this. is quite good.
I like his relationship with Data the best and Data gets the best
line in the whole thing, which is when they're in the show at the
end.
Comparing him to a Gutenberg Bible is pretty great.
And I think that's a bit of a hint that he's, because there's that
thing about him being a collector.
We've had the most toys by this point, haven't we?
That series four, I think.
That's a great episode.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But so he, you know, like collecting data, we're already kind of
laying the ground because that's what he eventually does, isn't
he?
He tries to steal data as well.
I feel like he should have lots of lines here about how utterly
unimpressive the decor is in these guest quarters.
Yes.
No, he does say it'll do.
Do you know what I mean?
I mean, I suppose it'll have to do for now.
What he's really thinking is?
Because obviously he's from a century past is why God.
Look at this luxury around me, you know?
We don't have this much carpet on the walls in the past.
No, that's what we were thinking in 1991.
And look, we have the sink that we don't have to realise because
it's just out of shot.
Ramone unashamed, Nathan, that I thought this was the height of
luxury in 1993.
Oh, no, I did too.
Don't you worry.
I did as well.
So is data collecting, forgive me, the data of the things that
you're stealing throughout the episode?
Because it doesn't come a great surprise to them at the end.
Uh, yeah, so we see him steal 2 or 3 things, don't we?
Like, and he really obviously steals that thing from Beverly, um
It would have been nice to know that Beverly just went straight to
the captain and said that asshole has just stolen my stupid
scanner thing.
But also, as well, when when the twist hits at the end, It just
takes away anything that's potentially interesting about that
character as well.
Well, I mean, you saw we went into the ad break there with him
sitting down after data had left raising an eyebrow and throwing
the apple and it's kind of like, well, what am I supposed to make
of that?
Like what even is that?
Okay, here's the window.
Now, I think it's got a California hillside out the back there as
well.
There's a bit of a tree.
It's a reasonable set.
So here we are all of the usual enterprise consoles that are
normally flat all up on the walls.
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And some tellies, like they've embedded some tellies into the set
there.
I'm unashamed that I thought in 1993, that was the peak technology
as well, though.
I wanted to push those buttons so badly.
Yeah, I do.
Oh, God, here we go.
Techma babble city.
I know this is real size.
I know it all makes sense, but it's just not for me.
And I know you're going to say I'm probably watching the wrong
show then.
But I mean, I think that that is kind of interesting.
It's a little bit like, and it doesn't have the scale, obviously
but that bit in Star Trek four, you know, where they're talking
about the effect it's having on the atmosphere and stuff as the
probe comes in and the window brakes. series of glorious set
pieces in Star Trek 4 that are fun.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Where the cameras, but here we've got where it just...
Yeah, look, look, Professor, come on over and then she looks at
she looks at them to kind of go, oh, how are you going to react?
It's Beverly, when she's just being a normal person is as charming
as hell.
It's wonderful.
Look at her.
Is she?
It's the date of day, Beverly.
The one that starts.
Exactly.
But I don't think she's, she's at all, like he charms her at all.
Like, I think she kind of likes it, but I don't think she buys it
for a 2nd and I like that because, you know, the moment he tries
to sort of hit on her.
She goes, yeah, I could be your grandmother.
Oh, that Lord.
It's very dodgy and quite funny.
That's one of a few funny lines for this.
Although I did wonder, you know, she thought, you know, I could
fuck a guy from the future.
That's a good talking boy in the future.
Does she get someone to fuck this year?
Is the host in the series, hostess in series four, I think?
Yeah.
Well, she gets a romance every 2 years.
Yeah, okay.
They're either a slug or a ghost or a man from the future.
You know, it's it's never just a normal person.
But I mean, this question that Riker asks.
Like, I just don't, they're never, so that's all really super
underdeveloped, right?
This should be a bigger deal if this really is the 1st time anyone
from the future has come to the present.
Oh, yeah, here this terribly boring scene. ring technology Well, no
but this is reminds me of what you said to me.
I think when we were watching faces, is that we've got to a point
now with a TNG that even when a scene is as badly written as this
and as laboured as this, that we know these characters well enough
and they can inject a bit of personality into it.
So, what they're saying might be very dull, but you can watch it.
You know, they're fun to watch.
Beverly's relaxed.
Riker's pissed.
Warf is looking very pensive about something.
So it's funny that the warp coil's only 200 years old.
That's not true, is it?
Oh, it's about 220 years old.
Possibly tell you that.
Is that true or not?
Well, isn't it developed in like 2140 and we do have phase
pistols?
So obviously it would be ridiculous for them to say, oh, well, we
can't do enterprise now because we established that phase phases
didn't exist in the 22nd century, because that's where he's from
isn't it?
Yes.
Yeah.
Do you know what?
I was trying to say in a very protracted way there.
I can put it in a sentence.
I think their chemistry is better than them. material.
Oh, yeah, I think that's true.
That what makes it watchable.
Yeah, yeah.
If they only gave them good lines as well.
It would be win-win.
It'd be amazing.
You see, I just think Geordie is so great.
Like he is so good.
I said over and over again.
No one delivers techno babble like LeVar Burton, but he's also
just charming and relaxed.
Can I raise that even further and say heroic?
The fact that he's given all of these dreadful scientific lines
and somehow manages to deliver them with such passion.
Yeah, but I mean, in a way, heaps of this dialogue isn't really
science fiction-y because it is just, you know, a thing.
Like it, it's sciency enough to be recognisable.
And so we're not having to talk about verder on particles or
fucking microfishes or any of that.
We are just talking about normal things.
And I guess the problem is that Star Trek can't afford to realise
the planet beyond that fantastic CG shot with the, with the uh
snow and then that terrible window at the back of the set.
Right, delightfully, Nathan, you seem to be in the midst of on
this zoom call.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, it was the obvious one to choose.
Oh, but Mark Hart, any other winning establishing shot.
You say Emmy winning.
I do wonder if they, you know, because Star Trek is popular at
this point.
They just throw them a bone.
Oh, the Muse that had some quirky costumes in it.
There's an image. given that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Maybe, maybe.
Oh, see, this.
I love this.
So he lists famous people who are blind in the past and he
mentions Monet and Blake, William Blake, possibly.
I can't remember, but then just says wonder.
And again, like I just think that casual dropping of a 20th
century contemporary reference is fun and not something that we
get often enough.
Oh, here we go.
No, no, that was that was quite sly.
That camera move because it was just in the middle of a dialogue.
There are worse to come where the camera lingers for ages on him
stealing.
We make at the end of the scene, you know.
You know, it is very clear.
No, it is very clear that that is just a match shot. superimposed
a lot of snow over there.
What do you want?
They're not going to go to an alien planet and shit.
What I want is for them to create a little model and throw in some
real snow, you know?
That would be much more fun.
Can I say, yo, something that will upset, not that there are any
homophobes or racists listening to entitled Star Trek project, but
Lava Burton has the most kissable lips that I've ever seen
pretty...
They're so...
I don't want get too kinky.
God, it's gorgeous.
Here we go.
Yes.
Yeah, see, this stuff's pretty good.
What are you complaining about?
Look, that is that stock footage of a thing that they've, I don't
know.
Same reason I don't go sit in an office and watch people going
about their work.
It's not what I want to watch on the TV.
But I mean, that is heaps of TV is people of their jobs, isn't
it?
That sort of procedural is at hospital. dramatically rendered, you
know, with vivid characters.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Not just a load of science on Mintaka 68 or whatever this is.
It's Penthera 4.
I wonder how they find those names.
I don't know.
Mintaka's the planet where who watches the watches comes from.
Oh, fabulous episode.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
I do seem to keep saying to you every time we watch a TNG
episode.
You mentioned a better one and I say, why aren't we watching that
instead?
So I quite like that reaction from Riker.
Sorry.
I'm so aware of the window.
Sorry, go on.
So yeah, so Matt Ferrell comes in and just sits right in Riker's
chair and Riker looks, am I going to be an arsehole about this?
Yeah, no, really, what's the point?
Which I thought was quite good.
I think, you know, the head scientist on this base sets that, where
you wear your best jumpsuit today, all right?
We got visitors from the Enterprise.
That's right.
I'm wearing jumpsuits.
I don't know.
Mind you, Matt Frewer's costume, isn't that great either, is it?
It's very pretty.
Yeah, it's a little bit more interesting than the, I mean, you
know, like casual wear on the Enterprise is always a bit rough.
It's always a bit hit and miss, isn't it?
Um, you know, he's got a kind of, I don't know, it's a big flouncy
thing, isn't it?
At least it doesn't look like it's come out the gap, which is what
their usual sort of casual awareness like.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Why does he have, so is the watch that he has?
Is that meant to indicate to us that he doesn't come from the
future after all because he's got a fucking stupid watch that's a
ring that he has to open the thing for?
He seems to have like 2 buttons on it.
So I can't stick too much for it.
I don't know why it's here.
I mean, the, the, it's faced to...
The reason we keep cutting back to it is so we know we're on a
timeline, isn't it?
And we're needing up.
Truly exciting.
That's exactly what he said as he came in.
Look at Deanna.
She really is so pierced at him.
It's wonderful.
I want us to watch one of those episodes, you know, where she goes
evil.
Not just not PowerPlay.
Man of the People, you know, where she goes truly evil.
No, but here she's just saying, yeah, I've got other things to do
and she's really, really sort of particularly pissed off.
And then, and then she gets the shits when he says Picard's
empath.
Like, you know, just think she's really terrific in this.
It's still very sort of period trauma insult, so, isn't it?
Like, I wish TNG would get the stick out of his butt and she could
just turn around and say, you know what, you're an arsehole.
I unlike you.
That's the problem, isn't it?
And like the problem is never solved.
It's a bit better in Deep Space Nine and still bad in Voyager
where they're all just space people, you know.
Drop the airs, you know?
Yeah, yeah, picant empath.
Good for you, Marina.
She's killing it I like, he says you don't like me and she goes, I
don't dislike you.
Why should you care whether I trust you or not?
He does seem to want to be liked, doesn't he?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, he's a confidence trickster, I guess.
You know.
Yeah, she goes, you, you're right.
I don't trust you.
What you should say is, you're a prick and just walk out.
The Beverly walks in and says, I'm glad to see you 2 finally
getting along.
Look at Beverly's hair as well.
I don't think guys ever look more lustrous than it does right
now.
It's pretty great.
You only get this commentary on on titles Star Trek project, you
know?
Yeah, people here.
Matt through his hair is pretty special, I think, too.
It's sort of nutty professor.
It's going off every day.
It is absolutely that, isn't it?
That's not what I look like when I get out of the bed in the
morning.
Oh, no, it's her body language and they'll say no.
She sort of, it's very flirtatious.
Well, no, but I'm getting that sort of hilarious, like, I think
you are funny.
Like, I think it, like, you're funny, not deliberately funny.
I just think you are funny and I'm not falling for your shit.
Like, it's just like, why?
I think, no, she's not doing it like that.
How can you equate this to that zombie?
That talks medical babble all the time.
Well, yeah.
But she, like, she's not LeVar Burton.
You know, she can't do the technobabble like Levakian.
No one can do the technobabil like that. smiling at him.
You're having fun with this shit.
She's toying with him, I think, is the idea.
Great, great, great grandmother.
That's gonna kill any passion immediately, isn't it?
That was the point of it though, wasn't it?
That was entirely the point of that line.
If he did have a hard on and blinks.
She smiles and does a little blink and then like just watches him
go, ha, ha, ha.
She went... been played like that.
They've been played like that.
I think I would have been on board.
But then, what, she immediately goes to Mr. Wharf and says that
prick stole my thing, I reckon, that's what's happening.
Oh, it was fun there.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, more that.
The the subtitles said alarm ringing.
That means we're due from Technobabble.
Two earthquakes.
Both epicentres and the 2 submote poles are the planet captain.
Oh good grief.
No, but it's just a bit.
No, I love the, I love the hilarious special effect where, you
know, we get the map of the drilling sites and then the map of the
earthquakes and then we move them so they're on top of each other
and it's like, 0 my god, the earthquakes are all on the drilling
side.
To be fair, that's pretty good.
Yeah, to be fair, they are, like, I can see where the special
effects MBS come from because they are trying to show us in lots
of different ways.
How this?
Yeah, I just wish it was a more exciting catastrophe.
No, and I think part of the problem is that you don't care about
the people.
It is still a bit Planet Zog. and so all you have is I'm not
invested in a great junction.
No, not really.
That's right.
Maybe if they wore better clothes, I would be.
Maybe.
It's not quite Veridian 3.
Like, it's not quite as bad or Veridian 4, which is the planet
that generation is to destroy that we don't care about.
That will always be the Nadir, wouldn't it?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Lack of interest in a planet in trouble. don't care.
I mean, at least Geordie's down there.
Do you know what I mean?
So, so we have to do something else because what we've done has
done the exact opposite of what we intended and poured more
particles into the atmosphere because now we've got volcanos going
off and more ash and this, this, this, look.
Oh my god, the eruption sites in the phaser drill sites are the
same place.
Well, of course they are.
The only way we could possibly have any drama in this thing.
God, no wonder they took DS9 to war.
If this was a day of the opposite on TNG.
But war is easy.
This was great.
He goes, we came here to help him, Riker says, and Picard goes, and
look what we've done.
And neither one of them sounds the slightest bit bothered.
But that looked like proper ad break acting, didn't it?
But there we go.
I don't know, they just deliver the lines so half-heartedly.
I think they know this is a midseason episode, you know?
Yeah, yeah.
I think that's probably it I love this.
This is really funny.
So he, he can listen up to up to 100 pieces of music at a time, but
when he wants to appreciate how lovely they are.
Their aesthetic qualities he can really only do about 10.
And at the moment he's only listening to four.
And I think that's really funny.
The other funny thing is that Brent thinks that he's speaking
Spanish and says La Dona, a Mobile, instead of La Dona, Mobile.
So there you go.
I mean, you would know that.
Well, no that's not true.
A Spanish person might as well.
Well, yeah, no Americans are supposed to speak Spanish.
Come on.
Well, I'll say it again.
I do think I think their relationship.
I mean, this is as cat and mouse as we get on this episode.
And it's still not great, you know?
No, no, no.
Imagine.
Imagine Matt Thruer beaming in and having scenes with Shatner, you
know, imagine how they'd sizzle as they're sort of playing around
each other.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I just think there's not quite enough scepticism as well.
See, the other episode that I was thinking of where there are
earthquakes and shit is Devil's Stew from last year, and I
love...
I'm starting to come round to the fact that actually is quite fun
compared to this bullshit.
Well, yeah, yeah, yeah.
But that is really fun, but there's scepticism.
We don't believe Ardra, and we don't believe Ardra, because we
know religions are not true.
And so, um, But you know, the whole thing is made so fun because
she comes down all camp and just goes, oh, those people.
Never mind.
You know, she's...
It's almost doing the lower decks thing, you know?
I'm taking the piss out of the danger.
Isn't it the same plot?
I mean, we have a confidence trickstar who uses technology to fake
that she's Andra and uses technology that's available to the
enterprise as well?
And so they're never not sceptical.
They're never for a 2nd convinced.
Here.
No one pushes back against the preposterous premise.
And because it turns out it's not true.
He's not able to kind of prove anything or say anything.
They all just buy it.
They all just go along with it.
They do his...
Whilst being irritated.
Yeah.
And and we don't have the temporal prime directive or anything
like that yet because time travel is such a minor part of the show
at this point.
It hasn't happened a lot of times.
And so all of that stuff about not interfering with the past and
stuff isn't in place yet.
And remember, Picard says if you have any equivalent of the prime
directive but for time travel, you know, you won't be able to tell
me the thing.
And I kind of think, well, that would be the temporal prime
directive, wouldn't it?
You know, like eventually we come up with that and it's not in
very many years.
So it's all sort of very ill formed and I just don't think that
that works as well as everyone and kind of imagines it does.
I think you're right.
The only objection they have is to his character, I'm not what
he's there to do, and that is an issue.
Because you can't prove anything.
Do you know what I mean?
He can't prove that his, all that we've got is that his spaceship
did a warpy thing that we hear about.
We don't even see it.
So nothing remarkable beyond that.
That's his credential and they all believe him.
Now this is act four.
It's one scene.
So between the ad breaks.
It's just one scene.
The centrepiece of the episode. and it is actually talking about
something.
And I do like Picard saying, you know, I have toyed with the prime
director at times and I need to do so again now.
Please help me.
I like it when he's humble like this.
Yeah.
Yeah. and and so the that B plot is designed.
So things go horribly wrong.
They've now got a thing where they're trying to ionise the
particle so that they fall out of the air or whatever, but it
risks burning off the atmosphere.
And so that's super clear.
Do you know what I mean?
It's clear what the stakes are.
And it's at the end of that thing where he thinks, 0 my god, I
have someone from the future here.
And so that's where the 2 plots really dovetail and that's what
that, you know, B plot exists for is to make this necessary.
And I think the points that it makes like it gets it right in a
way that science fiction generally gets it wrong, I think
because...
Well, I'm not a big fan of the idea that it's wrong to change the
past.
Because if it's wrong to change the past, then it's wrong to
change the present.
And that is what Picard says.
This is my present.
If it's wrong to change the future, you know, then it's wrong to
do anything.
Like, why does the fact that you come from the future mean that
doing the same thing is wrong for you?
Like it just makes no sense.
And regardless of whatever happens in this conversation and
everything leading out to it, he still has to make a choice either
way.
Whether he's influenced by...
That's the conclusion he draws, no, I'm in exactly the same
situation I was in before.
We had this conversation.
And at no point, because we're not really thinking about time
travel in any way.
At no point do we get the obvious thing from Frua, where he never
says, okay, let's say I tell you that everyone died, and then you
act in a way to prevent that from happening.
Then, Why would I tell you that everyone died if I come from the
future and that didn't happen?
Do you know what I mean?
Like, you could do some kind of, like, it breaks the narrative in
some way or it does, you know, the sort of thing they do in Doctor
Who all the time.
I do like that he mentions, you know, that dreadful, Oh, well, what
if the one person that survives turns out to be Hitler or can't
sing?
And then he goes, yeah, every bloody 1st year student. yeah Or
that philosophy legend. you very much.
Yeah, that's right, but that's a good reason for not saving people
from house fires or car accidents.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, what happens if the person that I give CPR to who's
collapsed on the street grows up to come Hitler?
Do you know what I mean?
Like, that's a stupid consideration.
How can you possibly make moral decisions on that basis?
It's just ridiculous?
And Picard is right all the way through.
He is.
This is the one scene that is criticising what for his character
is here to do.
It's the only scene, isn't it?
There's questioning.
He's not here to do that even, though.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, and and I'm super interested in how we're expecting him to
play his final refusal, because I think what would be
interesting.
What would be interesting and what would make him less of a
cartoon character is if he was horrified that he had put himself
in the position where all these people thought he could give them
the answer to that question.
And when he says, I'm sorry, Captain, I just can't tell you.
What if we, what if he meant that?
What if it was just shit?
I'm in this position, but I don't know the answer.
There's no answer that I can possibly give you.
I can't make myself responsible for the decision that you've made
because everything I've told you about coming from the future is a
lie and I don't know how this ends.
Do you know what I mean?
Well, they don't go there.
Would they nearly, you can just about squint and see through a
trying to play it like that?
I like the fact that you see a bit of anger in this scene, that
you see a bit of pressure.
It's the only point in this whole episode where somebody sort of
loses their rap.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And Picant's right.
You're gonna manipulate, you're trying to manipulate the future.
Yes.
Do you know what I mean?
Yes, I'm trying to manipulate the future.
We do it all the time.
That's precisely what we do.
We call it making choices and we're allowed to do that.
That's not morally wrong in itself.
It's necessary.
We have to do it.
I do wonder if this is a bit long though.
It sort of is going around in circles.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
He's making the same point about 5 times, Picard.
Yeah, well I get, I guess it's just sort of underwritten.
Like, I just think Rick Berman, do you know what I mean?
And maybe the show at this point as well.
And again, I'm going to go back to through it.
I do wonder if it would land better with a more sophisticated
actor in that round.
What's that?
Please don't ask me, Captain.
I can't help you.
And like he's...
But I don't feel for him.
No, but do you think I think he's playing that as a truthful
moment, don't you?
I think he's saying, I'm not from the future.
You know, like I can't help you.
I'm sorry.
Please don't ask me.
Whereas still, at this point, we're supposed to think that he is
from the future, and he's obeying a set of rules.
Please don't ask me to tell you.
Yeah, yeah.
But again, we've never been super convinced by him being from the
future anyway.
That's what the conclusion that Captain Picard draws, how precious
the right to choose is.
Yes.
Make a bloody choice then.
Come on, let's get it done.
He's not going to play it safe.
I like that.
I actually like. a good thing. do you know what?
It is underwritten, but I don't think the dialogue is terrible.
No.
And it is at least interesting, you know?
It's trying to do something interesting with the premise for about
2 minutes.
Yeah, that's right.
Five minutes.
Now we're back to this.
No, there's lightning coming through the window.
Yeah.
And again, it's not just his decision either.
That's the thing too.
It's not Picard's put in a decision where in a position where he
has to make a decision or not make a decision because everyone
like a Mosley and the whole planet.
They've all agreed that we're going to do that.
I'm going to ask you to squint as well and imagine an episode
where, you know, that argument that we just had was married to a
truly gripping, you know, yeah, environmental disaster or
scenario.
Yeah, where we really cared.
It would make it land even more, wouldn't it?
We'd be like, well, this is the hinge point of this episode and I
really care what happens to these people.
This is very dramatic.
Well, they can't do it because they can't depict a planet on Star
Trek at this point.
Do you know what I mean?
They can do an establishing shot.
They can do the 3 people in a room.
There's a bit of lightning happening there out the window.
I think they can go back to who watches the watchers.
That was a really interestingly depicted planet with the same
argument.
Can we interfere?
What choice can we make?
Yeah, yeah.
They can do one person.
Yeah.
Well, and that's done with lots of fabulous location work.
I'm totally sold on that money.
Yeah, that's right.
Yeah, that's true.
Yeah, here we go now.
Yeah, yeah, some proper special effects.
These must be the sort of high definition ones that have been
replaced.
I wonder what the originals were like.
Yeah, yeah, I did mean to go back and have one.
Blue cloud cover or whatever. plasma particles coming over the
planet.
Yeah, well that, no, I think that's like the real thing coming
back.
And I think for a 2nd it looks like it's gone wrong, although we
know that it's not the moment whether we know that Geordie's on
the ship.
Matt Ford gets to do a bit of sort of shake the camera acting.
Yes, the ship is buffered about, you know.
And he's looking concerned there.
He's playing concern because he doesn't know how this is going to
turn out.
So he but no one's paying any attention to him.
So.
Oh, that was fabulous.
That was another stock shop from a counterfoulpoint, but with the
special effect put over the top of it.
Bravo.
I think the ship turning around is stock, though, like that ship
turning around, but that shot from behind the back of it is, I
think.
Oh, oh, it's all alright, Captain.
We're still breathing.
Yeah, of course.
Of course we are.
Othello goes, you know, oh, I could kiss you, Captain Picard.
Thank you.
I, I really like, there's something about the way these things are
directed where, you know, you're down on the, like, something
which this show does more than TOS does, which is the
communication enables them to all be in the same place, no matter
where they are, and that conversations happen just between people
in kind of different places.
And I do like that when you have the characters down on the planet
looking into the camera and stuff as if they're talking to us, I
think that's kind of cool.
A climax feels so functional after all that dialogue.
It's just like, well, I'll be off then, captain.
That's that dumb.
Yep.
You know?
It should feel like a triumph, you know, that he's overcome.
He's gone through this moral dilemma and they've had a great
result, but it's just like, no, you know, thank you, Captain
Picard.
See you later.
Well, it's this, but I mean, none of them goes, this is very, see
they're not, they already know, don't they?
Do they know what they're saying?
Yeah, they're looking...
No, but did they know?
Did they know when Picard was having that speech?
I don't think that speech works if he, if, or no, that means he's
lying for the whole thing.
No, from the past, do they?
They don't know that he's from the past.
Just as Matt Threwer left during that big old scene. stealing
shit.
That's when wolf walked in and went. you know, we've got a lot of
things going missing.
Oh, the I said to you, the inside that this shuttle looks just
like the gift wrap I sell in my shop.
This sort of hologramatic gift bags all over the world.
What was it Cogenitor or something?
What was the one?
No, no, no. past future tense, something like that.
No, no, I'm thinking, no, I'm thinking of something in enterprise
where they use that kind of hologrammatic printed wallpaper in
some episode, which I thought was very 60s trek.
It was co-genitor.
No.
Oh, maybe.
It was the one where the... was unexpected, wasn't it?
Oh, yes.
Yes, yes, yes.
What he was going on in that trippy spaceship, wasn't it?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. yeah Sniffing magic muffrooms.
I quite like the door handle and stuff.
I mean, if we'd seen more of that.
Do you know what I mean?
Like if we'd seen, if he had brought some technology from the
future to sell to us that he was from the future.
And if they had been impressed by it and had been pestering him
about the future more urgently, and he'd, like he does make it
clear in the episode, he's not going to answer those.
I think that looks great.
Look at that.
Nice chairs.
It's okay.
He's stolen it.
He's stolen at one of Worf's knives as well.
And one of Geordie's voices.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
He's going to make our minds in the past, yeah.
Well, he did ask about the visor, didn't he?
Yeah.
Data does get a wonderful line here about.
I'm assuming your hand for your work.
We could, whether you're conscious or not.
It's so great because he's been being threatened and he hasn't
reacted to it because of course, um, his data.
But then he says something just massively threatening to through
it. kind of, I am now going to knock you unconscious unless you
cooperate. is essentially what I'm saying.
I did just see a boom mic in shot there.
Just for a 2nd.
Yeah.
Even in the 90s. it's probably just a low roof Because they're
doing something to the sound in here to make it sound like a
confined space too, aren't they?
I remember the Star Trek program, guys, by Paul Cornell, Keith
Topping and Martin Day.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Giving this a hugely positive appraisal, but disliking the ending
because they say Rasmussen's such a likeable man.
I'm not sure I'll buy that, that it feels, it feels wrong, that
that he's sort of arrested at the end of the episode, and it
actually makes the Starfleet characters...
Yeah, it's even very unlikeable.
Whereas, yeah, Picard's lied. welcome to the 24th century.
I think it's great.
In fact, what it's like the ironic punishment is that he will now
spend the rest of his life filling in questionnaires and being
patronised by people who are actually from the future.
You know where he's going, don't you?
The Day Strow Institute.
That's where he's going.
He's from Institute.
That's right.
But, you know, he's going to be patronised.
I think that's really good.
And I also think deactivating the gun remotely is clever, you know
once the door is open, we can automatically deactivate all the
weapons, and that's cool.
Just all feels flat.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
And I'm just not sure Nighty Shrek can do it.
You know, I go bang on a lot about the episode with the fake
Janeway and Chevok, where they're going around planets and falling
people into thinking they're the...
That is so flat as well, you know.
It's like they just can't have enough fun to make it really fun.
No.
Have we had we have had Andra.
See, I think Andre is a confidence trickster who is pretending to
be something that she's not and she is really fun.
But it's less sort of witty that's more camp.
If you like a bit of camp, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, maybe that's it.
And what about the outrageous O'Connor?
Where Sexy William O'Canbell comes on...
I mean, he fucks Terri Hash up.
That's about audio issues.
Well, there you go.
And he's back in prodigy a fair bit too.
Oh, they do want on DF9 as well. rivals.
Do you remember that fellow Martyrs, who comes on the station with
those gambling machines?
And he's a convict.
It's so boring.
They just can't do it.
They can't do it.
Confidence streak star.
No.
Maybe maybe we'll all come across one.
But it's like, it's like they're trying to recapture Harry Mudd
are they?
Yeah, they just can't find that.
That's what I was thinking too.
And they don't manage to do it.
And I think it's telling the discovery attempts Harry Martin in
season one. it lands makes him terrifying as well.
Yeah, but also camp and funny too. and it's kind of like we can do
this 90 straight couldn't but we can do it now.
Well, I have to say that was a very middling episode of Star Trek
the Next Generation.
We may have tempted fate recently by suggesting that we've done
too many good and bad episodes and that we need some middling
episodes.
And that delivered with great results.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, the next episode is new ground, and that is thoroughly
tedious.
Can get the comes back.
Yeah.
It's the only the only thing that happens in it.
There's another sort of environmental disaster and there's these
little puppet creatures called Gilvos that Alexander likes in the
school.
And when the enterprise is almost destroyed at the end.
Wharf has to go and rescue the little guild.
Yeah, yeah.
It is awful.
I love puppets, though.
I'm a big fan of puppet aliens in Star Trek.
What are you going to buy the Nagus, the one he was stroking in
the Nagus.
Do you remember?
No, no.
I'm thinking the one that, um, this is very weird scene in the
most toys, where there's that weird hand puppet in a fish tank, and
Data's feeding it and just going, Lou, Lou, Lou, Lou, Lou, Lou, Lou
Lou.
I really, tonelessly for no reason, and it's just sort of
fantastically weird and and odd.
Could I suggest it is possibly telling that instead of summarising
our thoughts on this episode?
We are talking about more fun other episodes. the next generation
right.
I don't think it is an irredeemable premise.
I think it could be gray.
It isn't.
No.
And there's one very passable scene.
And the rest sort of just ticks by.
Yeah.
Look, I mean, I like this version of Star Trek, and so I am kind
of happy to watch them turn up and do their jobs in a way.
And because it's also been kind of roundly mocked in lower decks
that whole sort of version of Star Trek, I find myself feeling
very affectionate towards it.
Justifiably mocked, I would say.
Yeah, 0 yeah, no, I agree.
But they're doing some things for the 1st time here and they're
attempting the giant premise, which is their job, isn't it?
It's this week is the one where the guy comes back from the past.
This week is the one where Picard has to speak to an alien on an
alien planet.
You know, this is the one where the game happens.
Like, they're doing big giant memorable premises, which is exactly
what they need to be doing, but I just think maybe a combination
of Rick Berman's writing and Robin Williams's absence kind of sink
this one.
Yeah, and I do think some premises tickle my testicles better than
others.
And stuff like the game and disaster and things like that.
Yeah, you know, where there is a bit more of an injection of
character.
Think of those, all those pair offs in disaster and various parts
of the ship. or the excellent romantic chemistry between Robin
Leffler and Wesley Crusher in the game.
There's sort of nothing to hang this one on in terms of character
work.
So if you're less enamoured with a day in the life of the
Enterprise D crude as I am, there isn't much to enjoy.
Yeah.
Well, it's the end of the episode, and it is time for us to find
out what we're going to be doing next time.
This was my pick last week.
And so it's your turn with the Randomiser, Joe, what series are we
choosing?
I am choosing all of Kurtzman Star Trek.
We have spent far too long watching mediocre 90s trek, and it's
time for us to watch something with production value.
Yeah, it's a mediocre 21st century trick, probably.
Okay.
All right press the button.
Right.
Your Star Trek Discovery episode is season four, episode eight, all
in.
So, this is the episode where, so we have that fight.
It may actually be after but to connect, I think.
See, after the midseason break.
I think it's after the mid-season break and it is we go to a
casino planet where Book and Michael play poker in order to get
some, you know, phlebottonum or something, some unobtanium, some
McGuffin, and... they play out the conflict that they have their
interpersonal conflict.
It's very Star Trekie in the midst of a plot that has been very
sombre and serious, has seen books planet destroyed and all of
that, and it's kind of, all right, off to a casino planet for a
game of poker.
They have all the energy, fun, and wit that was lacking from a
matter of time, from memory, yes.
Well, then that's the one we're going to do.
Because and I think it's, I think it's worth us going back to
season 4 of Discovery, so we can talk about that a bit more as
well.
Although really, what we need to do is push to the end of the
season where it all culminates.
Where we tend to land is in the middle.
But, hey, it's a good season by all accounts.
So, yeah.
Okay, brilliant. lets do that.
Let's do it.
You've been listening to Untitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford
and Nathan Bottomley.
We're online at Untitled Star Trek project.com, where you can find
subscription links and links to our social media accounts.
Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceran, and the theme was
composed by Cameron Lamb.
This episode was recorded on the 6th of February, 2024, and
released on the 9th of February.
We'll see you next time for Star Trek Discovery. all in.
Okay.
Sounds fun.
Just let me check out that stride.
Star Trek Discovery coming home.
I keep hearing about the DMA, which is the Digital Marketing Act
the Digital Markets Act in the EU, but all I hear is dark matter
anomaly, which is from season four.
Have you noticed this?
What's that?
Jama's got a randomiser.
That one's not original out there these days.
Did he just put it up?
Was it our idea?
because we've been mocking him?
Say, ah, so Bam gets 2.5 stars.
Wait, I want to see what he gives this episode.
Hang on, where are we?
I love it. b, b, b, b.
No, it's having fun and he won't love it.
Are all in.
Yeah.
Oh, 2 stars. 2 or four.
No, that's bullshit.
All in disgrace the subject, but not the spirit of this week's
discovery episode, a routine stopgap sort of episode, lacking
ambition.
No, no, that's absolutely not what it is.
It's putting them all together.
It is the episode after straight after but to connect.
So the scene where he flies off in the spaceship and she's there
going, oh, shit.
And then we have to wait for like 2 months.
No, like 6 weeks and then the show comes back and it introduces
just this incredible run of 6 episodes starting with all in.
And what all in does is take what was a big political conflict, and
a big personal conflict that was too big for them to speak about
and then puts them in the episode together to talk about it, and
to compete with one another.
And it's like it's ridiculous, but it's properly ridiculous in a
Star Trek way.
I was just saying more, uh, What the comments.
Oh, because they they will agree with you.
I'm sorry, they will disag, they will disagree.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Not really. couple.
Um, Oh, I'm going in blind.
I don't really know anything, do I?
Although he does say here, the inclusion of a DS9 changeling as a
casual throwaway.
Yeah, that's one.
Yeah, exciting. exciting.
Okay.
Wow, yeah.
That'll be this one.
Let me save this.
Let me quickly jump in the bath.
Uh, but...
I mean, yeah, that was fun.
That was, well, it was fun talking to you.
Yeah, yeah, yeah