Hey, Joe. Hi.
So, we are back for our second muse based episode in the last few
months.
So towards the end of last year, we did Voyager series six, episode
22, which was called Muse.
And I have to confess that during the kind of editing process, I
couldn't remember what it was called, Muse, or the Muse, and that
changed a few times, and I finally got it ironed out and got the
right time.
Yeah.
And that was episode 87.
I'm untitled Star Trek Project.
Now, this is episode 96, and we're doing an episode called The
Muse, which is Star Trek Deep Space 9 series 4, episode 21, and I
gather that this is not well regarded.
Is that right?
Not by anybody, I don't think.
It sort of lingers down the bottom of DS9 poles when they're
talking about their overall series.
It's certainly at the bottom of any series 4 poll.
And reading memory alpha.
I don't think the production team have many kind of things to say
about this either.
There's a very amusing anecdote there about how most script
meetings tend to be sort of 3 days long for an episode.
And this had such a trouble gestation. 6 days it took for them to
beat this script into shape.
The longest in DS9's entire run.
But yet, it's not the worst episode of Deep Space 9 that we've
done.
What do you think is?
Oh, I'm dramatically thinking about this persona.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Because this had a lovely clock in it.
It did have a lovely clock in it.
This is 2 plots that are pretty thin. and they're so thin actually
that they find a bit over which one they're going to make the A
plot and which one they're going to make the B plot.
So originally this was an episode about Loaxana and Odo, which was
called playing house.
She was going to turn up pregnant and it was going to be his
baby.
That was the original idea.
I mean, I'm glad they didn't go with that. kind of terrible.
Because what?
Because he melted in her lap or something in the lift the previous
year.
Let's not go there.
Yuck.
And then it becomes the muse after the other plot.
So we will call the Muse plot, the A plot, and the Luaksan and Odo
plot, the B plot.
And I actually thought, though they were thin, they weren't
offensive, and they weren't kind of tedious.
They're both sort of reasonably short.
It a 45 minute episode, you know, each one clocks in at a bit over
20 minutes.
I went into this expecting for it to live up to its poor
reputation and for this to be really, like, home got just
destroyed bad.
And I came out of here thinking, oh, I was quite entertained for
that 45 minutes.
And that's all right.
Star Trek is okay if it does say, you know, because there's plenty
of episodes where we don't come out. 45, we're just thinking
that.
Like I thought this was better than last week's faces, for
instance, you know, which is a high concept Voyager episode, which
I imagine everyone involved is sort of reasonably proud of.
Here, I think this one's lifted by just an amazing guest
performance.
Like, incredible.
Yeah, gee she's great.
So this is Meg Foster is Anaya.
And I said last week, I think in last week's episode that she was
Cagney and Cagney and Lacey, but what I didn't know is that Cagney
and Lacey was a mid-season replacement that only ran for 6
episodes in its 1st season and she only played Cagney in those 6
episodes before she was let go for being too aggressive and
potentially lesbian.
So, yeah, I know.
Yeah, going for that reason. that's right.
That's what I should have kept her on.
Well, I mean, yes.
So she was like, go, she is 47, I think, when this episode airs
and she is absolutely sexy as hell.
Holy crap. sexuality, doesn't she?
She really does.
In fact, Rede H.
Chivaria says, Meg Foster was perfection, and I receive a bear
says she's so seductive and interesting.
You know, you can fall inside those eyes.
So they were clearly all on the set, a little bit bewitched by Meg
Foster while she was shooting this.
There's always a problem, I think, when the writers introduce a
character who's a writer, right?
in their TV show because they start to kind of show their ass a
bit when that happens.
And so this is an episode where a very, very beautiful woman
seduces the writer and gives him neck massages and all of that
sort of stuff while he's writing and fawns over him and says how
wonderful he is and ensures that they achieve sort of
immortality.
So it is a little bit of a writerly wank fantasy.
It's like my TV treatment, which is about a Latin teacher who
solves crimes and occasionally overthrows capitalism.
Do you know what I mean?
Like it is absolutely a thing.
And Jake is always a little bit like that.
He's a writer and we get to discuss rightly concerns on the show
and because all of the people writing it a writer is that becomes
a sort of thing.
But I thought this was great.
I don't lean into that as much as I probably could, do they?
This is the sort of stuff they lie to, you know, some bewitching
woman comes along and can sense his astonishing writing talent and
start stroking him seductively.
As you say, the writers are there writing this stuff going.
Oh, yeah.
This should happen in real life.
Yeah.
Does anyone have a big Foster's number?
she is terrific in this.
But I do think the other plot as well.
I'm not the biggest fan of Luaxana Troy.
I think those episodes can be hit and miss.
We've done one before, and it was definitely a miss.
That was a very bad episode, but she's not normally that bad.
I mean, that was an extremely poor episode.
That was manhunt from series 2 of Star Trek the Next Generation
when the writer strikes on and they're just trying to fill time
until the closing credits can happen.
What's great about it, though, is she she bowls into TNG and
brings a bit of fucking life to the show, you know?
And she ain't interested in protocol and having to stick up her
arse and all of this.
So naturally they all sort of hate her a bit because she's she's
enjoying her life and they're not.
She comes on to DS9 and they can't really do the same sort of
thing because everyone is a bit more relaxed on this show.
So instead they pair her up with Odo.
So they do the forsaken in series one, which starts out as a
Luaxana Troy pursues Odo episode, and you're thinking, oh, well, we
know how this is going to go.
And then they wind up stuck in a lift together.
And ultimately becomes something very moving where Odo, for the
1st time in the entire series, opens up to somebody.
And she basically, she says to him, you know, I really like you
how you are, and no one's ever said that to him before.
So suddenly there's a link between the 2 of them.
Unfortunately, they then start to undo all that good work in
series 3 where they bring her on back onto the station and she's
got a sex virus.
Obviously every show's got to do a sex virus episode.
It's given in Star Trek.
It's like Sarek, isn't it?
Like, but it's... a voracious appetite for Odo extends to the
entire crew and suddenly you've got Jake Sisco coming onto Kira
and Dax and Cisco are fucking and all this crazy stuff's going
on.
And they sort of lose the way of the Odo Luaxana relationship.
But I think they address that here.
And I think that part of this episode where it's just 2 adults
that have forged mature friendship together.
Leaning on each other.
I thought that worked really, really well here.
I'm not sure the writing because it's a very sitcom episode in the
terms of he has to get married to her and all this crazy stuff
that's going on.
But I believe the performances.
I believe they sell the friendship in the performances.
I don't think any of this is convincing, but I believe the
relationship.
See, I think that the director doesn't quite know what to do here
and I think... himself.
Yeah.
Well, probably talk about it going in, but I think that what
happens is we start by expecting what we got in the forsaken or
say, in cost of living, you know, cost of living in Star Trek, the
Next Generation has her kind of trying to escape her husband who
is, you know, controlling and wants to.
She does fall down this rabbit hole quite a bit, doesn't she?
Yeah.
So it's the same sort of thing.
And so we're expecting a sitcom and we get, that's how Odo is
playing it initially, is that he thinks that she's going to come
onto him.
And, and that kind of is interesting when it then gives way to
their kind of relationship.
But I think what that B plot really wants is we should be
interpreting what's going on that way.
It's a sitcom, it's like Santa Troy, you know, wacky things happen
and there's sort of comedy.
But what we then discover is that the reason that Odo is trying to
avoid her is that he's in love with her, and then at the wedding
when he declares how important she is to him.
He's telling the truth because he really, really is in love with
her.
And he means all of that stuff.
I know there's the inference in the writing, but it's really there
in the performance.
It's how Renee plays that scene.
And I actually had forgotten that she can't read him, and that's
one of the things because what I thought would have been perfect
is, of course, if she had realised that he was telling the truth
but the more tragic thing is that she doesn't know that.
And so when she goes back to Beta Zed, He's heartbroken because
his true love has gone.
And I think they don't kind of want to properly commit to that
possibly because they see Kira and Odo getting together later.
Just coming up the track now.
Yeah, yeah.
Whereas I think that this works really well.
We think that it's a sitcom.
We misinterpret Odo's behaviour, then we discover why he's really
behaving like this, and it's actually really sort of
heartbreaking.
And it's agreeable, but I don't think it's quite as good as it
could have been if it had properly committed to that.
Certainly not to like the heights of the best of Odo, Kira, that
we can before and after, yeah.
I do really like I love the honesty between the 2 of them though.
And I like how, because Star Trek usually does, isn't this blunt.
I like it when he she goes into his quarters and she's fallen
asleep in his lap and he just goes, there's nothing wrong with
your replicator, is there?
And she goes, no.
And at the end, I like the fact that she comes in and she goes
look, you're not in love with me, so I'm going home.
And it's just so to the point.
And Star Trek doesn't do this.
It's quite refreshing.
I think they discover in half a life. in Star Trek the Next
Generation, how good Majel is.
And when you don't just give her sort of auntie maime stuff to do
when you give her proper serious things to do, she actually really
rises to it.
And the Forsaken, I think, is amazing for that reason.
Remember she takes the wig off.
Like it's like she takes...
Yeah, yeah.
She takes that mask off.
She says it's my hair.
She goes, sometimes we all have to wear masks, so don't.
Yeah.
I so gorgeous.
It's it's so moving.
And she's terrific in this.
And this is her last on-screen appearance in Star Trek.
Oh, I don't, I wonder if they wanted us to do more, but I don't
think she was very happy with how DS9 was progressing and the wolf
footing was going, and she was quite vocal about Gene wouldn't
have been happy about it.
So I think maybe it was her decision not to do it, which is a
shame because I think she, there was probably another. they could
have developed this further.
Yeah, but I thought that was good.
Like, I didn't think it was a good ending and I thought it was a
kind of unsatisfactory ending in some ways.
It leaves something unresolved.
It's a bit like life rather than just sort of tying everything up
in a neat little bow.
And certainly her performance in this episode is really good as
well.
Well, that's that concludes our very positive reading on the
muse.
We'll see you next week, actually.
Look, it's no a night in Sick Bay, but it is pretty good.
One last thing before we go in.
I would like you to please keep an eye out for John Paul Loner, who
won a walk-on role for designing the winning makeup for Alien of
the week this week.
I'm going to describe what he looks like because he's only in the
1st scene, right, coming out.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
He's got a sort of a head like an arse.
So he's designing them, you know, the scan of sort of Ferengi
head.
We used to say bum headed alien, a BHA.
Like.
The bum part is blue. sort of wrapped around it is sort of like a
weird sort of skull shape and a bit that sort of comes around his
nose as well.
Okay.
Anyway, keep an eye out for him, all right?
Because he's spent some time designing this makeup that is now
having to wear on set.
Also bafflingly, this is nominated for an Emmy for costuming.
I was watching this going, yeah, Muse, I would, I would understand
the Muse.
The Muse.
Did they get the wrong episode?
I think Muse won an Emmy, didn't it, for costume as well?
I think it got a nomination for costume, yeah.
I think so.
Yeah.
Wait till you see what this fella's wearing in the alien makeup.
See white.
Okay, let's do it.
Come on.
Let us do it.
I'll count us in.
Five, four, three, two, one, and we're off.
I thought this was an amazingly quick opening.
It's very strange, isn't it, not having a captain's log or
anything like that.
And it's not anywhere along.
Why a few designs that forego the captain's log, though?
Because I think a lot of disk 9 is day in the life on the
station.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So we have Jake, and Sirik Lofton is 17 at this point. cute as a
bum, isn't he?
It's cute.
There is no, that's a bowling.
No, that's a bowling with a wig.
Yeah, there's Cliff bowl board?
I wanna know that.
Is Cliff Bowl board?
Bald?
I'm not sure Why'd you ask?
Well, just the Bolians were sort of famously bald.
There he is.
Oh, there he is.
Next to Meg Foster.
Oh, he only had a very brief shot.
He wasn't much of an actor. had to cut away.
Look at her eyes.
I know.
I think the forehead's a bit of a shame.
And I, you know, kind of kept thinking, why did we have to stick a
fucking latex for it on it?
Can't she just be an alien without that?
I mean, she's still absolutely stunning and incredibly sexy all
the way through.
I said this to you the other day and I'm going to say it to you
again.
We spend a fair bit of time on the promenade in this episode and I
just love that set.
I love that set and how they fill it full of funky aliens.
Yeah, yeah.
Never quite know what you're going to see next.
Uh-oh, here's mislikes Anna Troy, and she is pregnant.
Yeah, yeah.
Oh, now you're right.
This absolutely feels like DS not in the sitcom, you know, oh, oh
no, I'm pregnant.
Cue the music.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely it is.
Now, has that obeyed Nathan Bottomley, pre-title sequence rule
number one?
Well, it has introduced both plots, and we've gone just from one
plot to another.
It's a fairly short sequence.
So we establish that he's a writer and we get that eye contact.
Like he's looking at her trying to theorise about who she is.
Remember, he's making characters up for his writing and they make
eye contact like she sees him and he looks away.
And so that's a thing.
And then, of course, we get the big, I'm pregnant reveal, which
never gets explained.
She does say it's a miracle, which I think is rather delightful.
You see the beginning of that title sequence there.
You know, I always forget because DS9 is usually a thriving hub of
activity, just sort of how lonely out in space they are.
At the beginning of the Tarticans, we sort of start on stars and
then come around and DS9 is like far in the distance.
Yeah.
You forget, don't they, that they're out, they're out on the
frontier on their own.
Well, I mean, that was what the, that was what it was telling
earlier, wasn't it?
It's not eventually what the show goes with.
But that's the original...
I think it's a shame that they didn't leave it by Bajor, though
because I just like having, every time they do it, we go back to
the occupation and things like that and the planet's there, it's
just more visual. looks really good.
Well, you get the sun, the light from the sun coming through the
windows and stuff.
I think it's cheaper. not to do that.
I think you could be right. think that's why they do it.
Oh, okay, right.
Yeah, it is a very tall tile sequence, though, isn't it?
Let's be honest.
I'll do certainly not. skip it.
Prodigy.
Even when they've upped the tempo, you know, season 4 onwards
marginally, not a lot.
There's more little things, and there's a bit of a bass going
behind it.
Yeah, it's a miracle. miracle.
I never thought I could have another baby.
After the last one, you should have stopped there.
Oh, no, come on, then, Siana, she's fantastic.
Are the other guest star who deserves a mention too is Michael and
Sarah?
What else has he done?
So he is Kang.
And so of course he is.
Yeah, yeah.
And so he was incredibly attractive, again, in his 40s.
He's 73 or something here.
This is his last Star Trek 2.
Um, and he's been Kang.
He is dead at this point, isn't he, Kang?
in Deep Sea.
Yeah, yeah, he died in blood oath.
Yeah, so there's 2 episodes with him in it.
Oh, so this, he's a day of the dove in, he's finished off, both
Michael and Sarah and Major L. Barrett.
Yeah.
They thought, this is as bad as this is going to get.
I'm not going to get a worse episode than this.
I'm not doing any more.
Oh, I hate these these alien civilisations with bizarre rules.
Please don't tell me there is there is a race on the earth where
men bring up the boys and ladies bring up the girls.
No, but I mean, that's not super dumb.
Like, I think that's okay.
I think the the most delightfully hilarious thing about the
civilisation is where you have to stand up as the bridegroom and
explain why you want.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, it's a custom exactly designed to make that plot work.
But it gives us quite a good scene, I think.
Oh, it's a great scene because you've got all the crews standing
around baffled.
This is the 1st I've heard that Odo's getting married and then he
does his 1st declaration and we'll get there, but he just sort of
goes, Oh, marry me, Luaxana.
Like it just hasn't, there's no effort in it whatsoever.
I love how she calls him a dear sweet man.
It's kind of funny, isn't it?
Because he's pushing her away.
And I think that we read that as him not wanting to get into a
sitcom plot with her.
Yeah.
Every time I see you.
I end up in one of these...
Some ludicrous shit complot happens.
But then I like the idea that the reason he's doing, he's pushing
her away is because he's in love with her and it's kind of painful
to not acknowledge that.
The scenes that I figured that would be painful to watch again
because I remember them from before, are the ones where he lets
her into his quarters and loves her being there.
And I really love those scenes this time.
They were really good, weren't they?
That game I was telling you about where he shapes you into
something and she's got to try and find him.
I mean, that's what we play, right?
He's Meg Foster.
And look, like she barely opens her mouth.
She's so, I mean, the high forehead is all a little bit
unfortunate because she's a Star Trek alien or whatever, but it's
also stately.
Like she's really kind of glamorous.
But look, she's like the voice.
She overcomes the makeup, doesn't she?
The trouble with the makeup as well is, and then now to give him
these massive wigs.
Yeah, you know, it's a compensate.
But her deportment, how she carries herself.
The smile.
But look, she barely opens her mouth.
There's something, something there.
And like we get a bit of acknowledgement from the set that they're
you know, that he might be, because he's 17, you know, he's tall
and and stuff and handsome, he's a young man, but he hasn't had
sex at this point, has he?
No.
Uh, he's had girlfriends, but no, he's a girlfriend's male, maybe
but, but, but she's a much older woman, like she's 30 years older
than him and she brings him into her sexy kind of, you know, uh
Sorry, I'm doing, I'm watching the depth perception in this scene
here, because you can see the promenade behind and the extras
going about their business.
Yeah.
And that alien that we saw at the beginning. was walked past 3
times already.
He's just going back and forth.
What I like about this is this is about the promenade.
This is a conversation about what you were talking about because
she's talking about the Cardassian architect who has this
influence on Cardassian style.
And that conversation, which sounds a little bit crap, is actually
quite interesting.
And it introduces the idea that she's going to kill that she kills
the person she inspires.
Yeah, because... get a point.
Yeah, it's pretty good.
I do like the idea, the idea that, you know, what's better to live
a long, unfulfilled life or a short life where you make an impact
on the universe.
I think most of us would choose a shorter life, actually.
Well, but the funny thing is, of course, that it is like writing
is pouring your heart and soul into something.
Do you know what I mean?
It's a very hard job.
And you kind of think, yeah, like there are paramedics and coal
miners and stuff and you can just fuck off, you know, like, you're
writing this. why writing seems so heroic here.
Um, I mean, you know, um, wondering what I know, I would, would
say to you and me, Joe and Nathan, such insightful, critical
analysis.
Oh, dear.
I mean, she couldn't possibly make our podcasting better, Nathan.
She couldn't do it.
No, no, no, wouldn't be possible.
She has techniques.
Like, there's also, I've watched a sort of mid-nineties telly
lately, because I'm doing a abovey podcast as well.
And there are some really awkward episodes where older characters
are coming on to younger characters or supposedly younger
characters.
I didn't get that sense at all here.
I didn't get the sense that she was looking to have sex with him
or anything like that, you know.
She was just after his creative juices.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
But it is kind of impossible to read.
Like she's, you know, smelling his hair and stuff like that. you
know what I mean?
Like, it is really central.
Did you find it icky?
I didn't know, no, because I just thought she was sexy as hell and
was kind of thinking, you know, and he was into it, like he didn't
seem to be...
I do wonder how this was played, though, you know, if it had been
I don't know.
A 17 year old Naomi, Naomi Wildman and an older man stroking her
hair, you know.
Yeah.
This is a beautiful scene too.
Okay, this is great.
I know, but it's him as dad, and I just love seeing him as dad.
Like, and there's a couple of scenes, but that makes him even
hotter, Nathan, if I want it.
Oh, I agree.
But they're beautiful.
Like, it is that thing about how demonstrative they are and how
physically, do you know what I mean?
How physically demonstrative they are.
He kisses him.
He demands a hug before he leaves, you know, like it's just, look
something very right with the relationships on this show, didn't
he?
He just claps him on the cheeks and leaves.
It's beautiful Oh, I don't think they've seen lands.
So everyone's sitting around depressed.
Really?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Just nice too.
They're ridiculous frocks.
Yeah, that's right.
They're ridiculous mediaeval princess frogs. and they're so
miserable.
Camelots.
Love betrayed.
I don't think this is well directed either because there's a thing
here where Michael should deliver the line as if Worf genuinely
believes that Odo is asking him to go for a walk, but he doesn't
and that would have been so much funnier.
Like if he went, yeah, yeah, I'll go for a walk.
It's like, no, it's acting like Sana.
Like that would have been funnier.
And I think the final line is on the nose where it's just a sort
of sign going, I'm so depressed and it's kind of like, yeah, yeah
we've been watching this scene.
I know Courtney's a line because he's on a contract or
obligation.
So we have the scene which establishes this.
Then we have the bit that explains it.
And then it's so fucking 90s trek, isn't it?
Just trust us to get it.
We get it.
That was our big complaint about last week, wasn't it?
It's just like everything was like telegraphed to us as if we
hadn't ever seen TV before.
And here in a way, I'm objecting to the fact that things aren't
very clearly telegraphed.
You know, we can't tell really what the B plot is happening and
you have to reconstruct it.
You said last week about the last lot.
I can't remember what the last line Neelix had during that
terrible scene where he dragged the scene.
Oh, yeah, the non-joke.
The same thing happened just there where that goes, oh, I'm so
depressed.
And it's just not funny and we knew that, you know, like, what's
that?
Like, they, it's a non-joke.
That's a placeholder where a joke should go, but no.
Somebody should do a book.
The non-jokes of 90 Star Trek.
Yeah.
Volumes one to 10.
Speaking of writing, though, this is the only time that Majo
Barrett gets a story credit on Star Trek.
Yeah, I think she wanted to do the pregnancy storyline.
Yeah.
So it's her and Renee at Chavario, who get the, who get story and
Renee gets some, um, uh, tailor play credit.
They play along with this for a bit, that her replicator's broken
and she wants some tea because she's a bit angry.
You know it because we've seen TV TV before?
Well, we've seen her do this before.
Yes, of course.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But, like, it's so obvious.
And he knows all, you know, and in a way that your applicator
isn't really broken is almost unnecessary, but I like how old she
is, though.
I like this.
She says, yeah.
Yeah, that's all right.
But I'm comfortable now, so I won't go.
But but also, it's that thing where she immediately understands
what it's for.
Do you know what I mean?
Most people think it's a sculptor.
She says, oh, it's viewed of shapeshift on, right?
Isn't it?
And he goes, well, yes.
And of course she understands him and that's the point.
I love this as well because she learned in the last episode about
Odo having feelings for Kira.
And she goes, you know, how is that all going?
And she goes, I'm really, really sorry.
And he goes, no, I'm really, I'm happy she's happy.
There's just a maturity to this.
Yeah, yeah.
But I like.
Yeah I agree.
I suppose, you know, he ended up in her lap in one story, so she
had to end up in his lap in another.
Exactly.
I do.
I loved his little line where he doesn't think there's much chance
he'll end up pregnant and on the run. his body language when he
touches her stomach and feels the baby kicking.
It's like that...
He's never done that before.
It's never occurred to him that that's a thing that happens with
pregnant solids, and he's never touched a pregnant person's
stomach before, and he's absolutely delighted by it.
It's wonderful.
It's the same childlike glee as when he has that bowl of glute
given to him in series 5 that turns to be a change.
And every time he experiences something new with it, he does this
his face just lights up.
It was wonderful, wasn't it?
It's really good.
Oh, yeah, look at this.
Look at it.
She doesn't even give him a choice.
Do you want to feel?
Yes, he just does this.
He just, he's so shocked.
It's wonderful.
Such a great choice.
It's sort of doing the learning about humanity thing that they do
with data, but because he's allowed to express emotions.
Yeah, more involving.
Oh, what she says, sometimes you can hear the thoughts of betasoid
babies.
That's a great line as well.
Because babies are content.
Like she has that quote.
Who is it she's quoting?
She says, like, we all spend all our lives lives longing for the
contentment that we experienced in utero, you know?
Like, yeah, here.
Some of these money once said.
It could be just terrible.
There's a relax.
I don't know, something about this works.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well I think this is so nice.
I didn't have a mother.
Yeah.
Don't worry, it's all right.
She goes, you'll find your peace.
But, like, how is he feeling now?
Like, is this him?
Like, is he being drawn into the sitcom plot that he feared?
He isn't really, is he?
As usual, she's got more depth than he suspected.
I do love it as well.
I know you don't like the effect, but I like it when he turns into
the blanket.
Oh, I like a blanket over her.
Yeah, he's got...
It's typical DS9.
It's about the people, isn't it?
There's a ridiculous plot going on, but it's about the people and
it's those moments that you take from this.
Well, even the fact, right, that his room has no furniture.
Like his quarters make no accommodation for any people who might
enter his life.
Yeah.
And so that's what he does.
He puts the blanket over her doing his stupid gloopy effect.
But that isn't going to stop her though, is it?
She's still got to stay there regardless.
But that's the point, isn't it?
She barges her way into his perfectly ordered life that excludes
everyone and just making his quarters demonstrate that, all right
now in these quarters.
So how did he know where she was staying?
That was the thing that irritated me at the end of the
conversation.
Come and see me in my quarters.
And he goes, oh yeah, all right.
And then she goes.
Why don't you just say computer, where is Anaya staying on the
station?
Well, do you think that's a thing, though?
That doesn't happen in hotels.
Now, look, we've got we've got candles in the set again, and every
time they do this, I always think it's better lighting than the
actual normal lighting that we get in us there.
Yeah.
But he's nervous. you know what I mean?
Because he thinks that sex is going to happen, perhaps.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, because she's older and she's pulling him into her sexy
quarters, which are all blankets and There's a lot of drapes there
given how many naked flames were about.
That's it.
Are they nylon?
I hope not.
That sounds potentially terrible.
It's not the only thing that's got to be on fire in this room, are
there?
I do like the fact that the book that he writes, it's Anselm, isn't
it?
And that's the book that he writes in Visitor.
Yeah, that she says is one of her favourite books. yeah.
Yeah.
And it's a great book, like we already know, it's a great book.
And so that's brilliant because we don't get the name of the book
until the last shot.
The last shot is the cover page, isn't it?
Of the thing where we see that the book was Anselm.
And so we see that she did inspire him to create something that we
know is great.
And I know it's all a, you know, timeline or whatever.
But we saw it on TV.
So it like it matters, I think. and that's what it means.
All of that stuff about, you know, you, you don't know how to
start a book because you don't know, you know, how to bring it to
life, but I bet you know what the 1st line is and all the life.
Like, Renee Shapara is writing this and it obviously is
experienced all this stuff.
So it's it feels believable.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I've certainly, do you know what I mean?
Even horrible J.K. Rowling said that she knew that like the last
chapter of the Harry Potter series, ages before, you know, she
finished it.
So this, there's something so sensual about that pile of paper.
And for someone who's never worked on paper before, he has the
most beautiful handwriting and like a painter. brushed canvas
right?
It's beautiful, isn't it?
It's called Vistoral, right?
Right.
Yeah, yeah, but it's visceral writing because the paper is sexy.
The pan is sexy.
You know, he's on that stupid, horrible pad trying to write
anything.
Do you know what I mean?
It's much worse than an iPad.
It's super gross.
But um, and now he gets to write on paper.
And I actually thought, you know, often it's someone who prepares
the prop.
Like you look at that shot, right?
And you sort of think, look at that beautiful handwriting, and I'm
not sure that's a syrup loft.
Is, is it?
is because the camera moves from his hands up his arm twice in the
episode and we see that he's the one actually doing that riding.
And he's 17. what year is this?
Like, and he has that stunning handwriting.
7, 97?
Yeah, that sounds right.
He's 10 years younger than me A bit more than that.
A bit less than that.
I've got to say props to the to the foley artist as well because
this is going to sound crazy, but they're actually the scratching
of the end on the paper.
It's really accentuated here as well.
Yeah, and it's real, isn't it?
But this, this is so sexy.
What's going on about the Frost?
Yeah, all of that.
But except, except, I don't know.
Like, I actually found all of that, because then she talks about
chakras and stuff like that.
So she talks about the temples and she talks.
Yeah, she talks about your shop.
Oh, Nathan, I fucking love a head massage.
Oh, yeah.
Well, that's it.
She can creep him up bedroom any day.
Yeah, to stimulate them and they can make you feel restful or
energise.
Like, and all of this stuff.
And what he's writing to is about that experience.
So comforting he could have succumbed.
Do you know what I mean?
I felt it...
Do you know, it's the pace of his writing is improved.
It feels like it's flowing out of him.
Look at that shot.
It's like if she's about to lick his ear.
Flow.
Oh my god.
It's so sexy.
Is she the best space vampire that we've had then?
Oh, she's, yeah, so I think, are we going to see that?
Look, they're his riding and there we move up his arm and it's
definitely him riding beautifully for someone who has never used
paper before.
It does feel like genuinely quite essential as well, doesn't it?
Yeah, isn't it?
But remember, you know, how many times we watched 90s trek
episodes and we've gone, ugh, you know.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So when, so she's like sniffing his hair.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, it's like she's, she's not sort of holding her hands over
his head and, you know, putting beams into his hair or whatever.
Like, it's, it's, um, she's wafting his scent into her nostrils.
This is exactly the game I would play if I had a changelim, mate.
Go on, turn into something and I'll try and find you.
The change is an equivalent of hide and seek, you know?
But I love where she goes over and says, because that is a thing
with a really interesting texture that would be really challenging
to replicate, and she thought it was him.
And I thought it was him too.
And then she goes, oh my god, you can do surfaces.
I didn't know that.
And there's that level of interest in a knowledge about his shape
shifting that we don't get from anyone else.
I didn't know you wanted to.
You do the surfaces?
Well, now you do. really good, isn't it?
It's really annoying.
Yeah.
I can't imagine why I found these scenes so bad before.
No, they're charming.
Are they?
Look how exciting.
You saw a toxic uniform in a very playful way, hasn't it?
He's having a great time.
Yeah, and there we go.
The husband, the horrible husband has arrived and it's Michael and
Sam.
And watch how he goes straight to business.
He straightens up.
Yeah, yeah.
The more I watch, Renee, I can never say his surname.
Oh, yeah.
The more impressed I am with how how much work he does when he
can't actually, you can't see his face.
He just uses his body in such an expressive way.
Yeah, I didn't make the link between this fellow and Kang, you
know.
Kang.
I think that in Day of the Dove, he's really attractive, like he's
you know, he's in his 40s, but he's a really attractive man and
you know, here he's 73 or something like he's sort of reasonably
old and he's very good.
He's got a lovely voice.
It does, but it's a very whole false character, isn't it?
He's here to just do one function and that's just to drag her away
and then be convinced.
All that sort of nuance we've talked about between Odo and Luxana
none of that's here with this character.
No, no, no.
But I do like that he gets to, like, he believes it.
Like, he's the one who believes it and then leaves.
And he doesn't like anything, does it?
He just, he just goes.
No, but there's a beautiful scene with him and Luxana later where
you know, there's not nothing to their relationship and he says
you know, bring my son up, but speak well of me to him and she
nods and says, yes, of course I will.
You know, like I just thought that was, again, just a sort of
level of grown-upness to the whole thing.
But this is a sort of shitty law that you have to create.
It's the mother's husband that has the rights over the child
rather than the child's father.
That makes it no sense.
No.
But all of that is just all kind of weird bullshit, isn't it?
Because it's amazing. into the wedding situation, isn't it?
Yeah.
But I mean, that's a thing that we've done before.
But so we talked about cost of living, and of course, cost of
living is resolved.
We, um, we defeat the horrible husband to be in cost of living
because, like, Sana turns up naked at her wedding, because it's a
betazoid wedding and there was some throwaway line in series one
about how betazoids are naked when they get married.
Yeah, that's right.
And does she say to Picard?
Oh, by the way, the person who gives me away has to be naked as
well.
He's like what?
What I loved about this scene as well is in so many of these
Loaxana Troy episodes.
She's the one driving everything.
She's the one saying, oh, you've got to do this ridiculous thing.
And what was really nice was here.
It's Odo saying, look, I'll come up with this insane plan.
She's going...
Are we really gonna try and do this?
And she's so much more likeable when she's not the one that's
pushing everything.
But the thing is that she doesn't know that he loves her and he
knows that he does and so he knows he can pull it off. don't you
think?
I don't think he knows until that wedding scene.
I think he realises that he's saying it.
Maybe, yeah, yeah, maybe, maybe.
I think that's how he plays it.
It's like he sort of pauses and then delivers that amazing...
And then start saying this thing.
But I think I think that we've seen in their inter- Yeah, so maybe
he's realising partly from the way they're interacting in the way
that she's talking about his shapeshifting in this episode.
Now, can I ask Nathan what your standard Star Trek fan, you know
expecting space anomalies and problems is going to think of all
this?
Well, I think that that's why it's hated.
And in fact, there is a bit of, you know, Star Trek shit.
You know, in the 3 quarter mark, which I...
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Some weird blob goes flying into space, just to keep them happy.
That's exactly right.
It's not very successful.
I love that too.
I love that she's concerned about the nosebleed and he's brushing
it off because he wants to get back to riding and having his hair
stroked by sexy Meg Foster.
Look at that smile.
Holy crap.
This is the 2nd episode of G Space 9.
We've watched, you know, where we've seen blood spilt on a page.
Oh, do you remember the 1st one?
monster Ojin.
Right.
Now here everyone's been roped into this stupid sitcom scene.
I can't believe it.
Poor old Mike Lansara has typically pronouncing Luxana and
actually gets it wrong when he says it.
Oh, don't wear it, though, Nathan.
Yes.
So this is like...
He's had a costumes that won the awards.
Yeah, yeah.
It's seersucker or fucking corduroy or something?
What's going on?
Like, what's the next?
That is blue corduroy, yes.
Yeah, and then and then she's wearing the same thing as if it's
like leisure wear.
Like, it looks so bad.
And it's really restricted around the neck.
I mean, who would want to wear that?
Yeah, dreadful.
And then she's wearing that sort of stupid veil that goes halfway
up her face in the wrong way.
Like it's really bad.
I do like the light, though.
Yeah, the light is, the light is good.
I'm not sure that falls under costuming, though.
That's probably props.
No, that it's a prop.
Yeah, like the veil is really terrible.
I love this ceremony, though, where you elevate the woman and then
say fabulous things about her.
But remember, it's a really patriarchal society and he actually
does say, you know, you are my most important possession or
something like that.
Like it is that.
Like, the Tavnians.
The problem with the Tavians is they're super sexist and
restrictive. my worldly possessions.
His delivery though here where he's just so off the cuff.
Oh, marry me.
Yeah, yeah.
Am I the only one who's less convinced about this ceremony?
He goes, Michael.
Yeah, yeah, you're right.
You're right.
Because of course, he can't be thinking I can pull this off
because he doesn't even attempt it, does he?
He just says some dumb thing and it's only when my clansara
says...
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Oh, that's, yeah, see, this is it.
He goes, the Waxano is not just any woman.
Not to me.
Yeah, and then we get it.
And what I love is how he says when she came into my life.
I had no idea the impact she would have on me because for the 1st
time ever somebody saw me for who I am and wasn't afraid.
Yeah.
Oh, that's lovely.
It is really good, isn't it?
And she is lovely.
Like we've seen her on screen with him.
She calls him my dear sweet man.
She's really kind of physically affectionate without, you know
without being overbearing.
This is a beautiful speech.
It turns out, you know, she just had to come where all the other
rejects of the galaxy are DS9 to thrive.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
And look at her.
Like, look at her reaction.
Now she's just silently reacting in the background.
Like, so I saw how different I was and she didn't recoil.
She wanted to see more.
And I don't think she realises any of that.
Do you?
Like, is she... like she's a shot as well.
You're seeing her rap?
Yeah, yeah.
So we're seeing her reaction in the background.
And even afterwards, she goes, I can't believe we got away with
that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I almost believed your speech myself.
Yes, I know, I know.
But do you think they don't, is it me?
They don't properly land it, I think.
No, yeah, there's...
Well, the whole situation is absurd.
Well.
Well, that's okay.
But do you know what I mean?
The whole situation just exists so that we can have this speech.
Yeah.
But it does mean something and it is backed up by previous
episodes.
So I think it lands in that respect.
It's just not as, it doesn't sort of touch you as much as it
probably should.
It doesn't break your heart.
No.
And it should break your heart when she leaves, shouldn't it?
And it doesn't.
Yeah, yeah.
I did like the fact we cut to Kira.
Everyone else is sort of looking on a Mara.
Kira looks down at her feet to go.
Not sure about this, you know.
Yeah.
And look.
And that's Michael and Sarah realising that it's actually, yep, you
won.
It is true.
Michael Ansara realising my Star Trek dream is over.
Yeah, yeah.
But as well, like David Livingston.
David Livingston directed that astonishing Klingon wedding and you
are cordially invited.
And that shows you when he's invested, he can really deliver it.
Whereas this just feels very point and shoot.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's not landing, but I don't think he properly knows what's
important or no one really is kind of trying to pull a story out
of this script.
I saw this is the end of this story now, whereas the other one's
about halfway through, isn't it?
We've still got the whole 5 minutes of, my God, there's an alien
on the on the station.
We need to find them.
That's the boring bit.
And so what they've done is they've beefed up the Muse plot
because they think this one isn't working.
Whereas I think this one could easily have worked and could easily
have been the A plot. don't you think?
Because it's about Odo getting his arm broken.
I wishing this is the A-law.
I feel like the Jake plot is just the...
But it's the one that it's the one that they give the climax to
and it's the one that they give the title to.
And that was their decision.
This was going to be called one playing house and then it isn't
called that.
Oh, look.
Yeah, see.
Is there a double meaning?
Is she Odo's Muse?
No, I don't think that quite works.
But yeah, yeah.
That I really...
If you wanted to marry me, we should tell them the truth.
But the way she throws her arms around him, just so natural.
But that should break his heart to hear that.
The camera needs to linger a bit, doesn't it?
We need a reaction shot.
That should break his heart, I think.
She is really getting off on Jake's juices now.
Look at that.
Look, I know.
But look, it's just like, look at that.
It's like they're postcoital.
Compared to, you know, Troy oiling that man's chest.
This is positively coil, isn't it?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And so she doesn't like, he's really into it, isn't it?
He wants her to go on and she's making him stop.
Just like, even though we had the sort of evil leer before, you
know, the end of the scene, where he's not worried about the
nosebleed, but she is a bit.
Yeah.
I do think he's more interested in the, you know, the astonishing
book that he's creating, though, than her.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, no, absolutely.
But, of course, it's all being done in this sort of sexy way.
Yeah.
By all accounts, she had a fabulous time doing the episode as
well.
She really enjoyed it.
She says she loved meeting, even though she doesn't have a scene
with her.
She loved meeting Major Barrett as well.
Oh, okay, wow.
Yeah, they could have been shooting in, you know, different
months.
I think, I think he does a great job too.
He looks terrible when he goes into the reprimat.
Look how tired he looks and it's not just makeup.
He's just he's really selling it. saddest things about DS9 is in
the last 2 series, they do forget Jake a bit.
They give him a few bits to do.
But in sort of three, four, five, They've really given him great
episodes and some good acting chances.
I don't think this is a great episode.
Don't get me wrong, but look at this.
I think he sells this.
Like, I just felt really bad for him.
So here we are.
So this is where we normally start the episode.
Well, Jake's been knocked out.
Now it's just like terrible.
She is investigating.
That's right.
There's some sort of subsonic particles that have been extracted.
Eurotransmitter productions off the scale, blah, blah.
This is where Star Trek fans all sit up and go, what, what?
Star Trek thing suddenly happening.
Thank God that sitcom's over.
Just goes in the Jeffreys tube with his gun in a minute, you know
like it's all going on.
At the moment, the moment where I really lost my shit with the
episode was where Kira says, oh, we can't beam you out.
There's too much radiation there and I just thought, oh, fuck, of
course there is.
No, the bit where I realised how lacklustre this all wars was when
he goes, get away from it, my son, and she goes, oh, but I'm
inspiring him, and he just sort of points and shoots the gun in
the lamest way you've ever seen.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's really no one's kind of giving a shit.
Although Nurse what's her face is definitely...
It looks amazing in that.
Did you see?
Yeah, I thought so, too. what this is with sexy women in this in
this episode.
DS9 is getting us on the turn.
Oh, look at it now.
Look, she appears in the sick bay. sort of, what is she, just sort
of brush aside the morning?
Yeah, yeah.
Do you know, Nathan, I could be mad.
I think that woman, that was Patricia Tallman, you know, who
played a regular on Babylon 5.
Oh no, it was.
Oh, it was.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, she's slubbing it, but she's assistant in DS 9.
So I think she does a couple of episodes only.
I think Paramount paid better than...
Oh, here's O'Brien saying now.
Sion energy.
Jesus Christ, we've got him waving a tricorder around.
Like, this is like, this is the opposite of sexy, isn't it?
Like, we've had all these sexy season now, it's stopped being
sexy.
I feel like I was a fucking voyager again. one of those scenes
where I had last week, you know?
That's right.
And this is where this is where the actors are uncomfortable as
well on this show because they're used to doing lots of character
stuff.
You suddenly start giving them shit tons of technababble and they
all just sound...
Like now we're in a fucking Jeffreys tube.
Oh, here we go.
Like she's smelling his hair.
Oh, Jake.
Give me your psionic energy.
And I like it enough.
She puts them into a, she puts the energy into her breast. doesn't
she?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So, yeah, it is pretty amazing.
We both went quiet then.
There was literally nothing to say. leg, no.
So, I can't remember whether we said this on the recording or
before the recording, but this will do the Star Trek trick of
mentioning 2 real people in a fake person.
And so this is a little bit like the wolf in the fold.
Remember the wolf in the fold that that sort of creature that was
Jack the Ripper and various other murderers on earth?
She was amused throughout Earth's history.
And so we mentioned Catullus, who's a 1st century Roman poet, who
died, we think, you know, the story goes that he died at about the
age of 30. you read any?
Oh yeah, it's great.
We read it all the time at school.
He's, you know, he's and he writes love poetry and really sexy
love poetry.
And, um, Keats, who died of tuberculosis at the age of 25 and then
we get um, Phineas Tarbold from the Canopius Planet.
Prittius Tarbold.
Yeah, who Gary Mitchell quotes 2 lines from a sonnet of his called
the Nightingale Woman, and it was written in 1996.
So he was from the distant future of 1996 on another planet, and
he wrote a sonnet and she was inspiring him.
I do know the fact that she gets away, though.
You know, she sort of zaps off.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It would have been terrible to kill her.
Yeah, yeah.
I wonder where she's gone now, you know?
Who is some architect or some artist.
Look how beautiful she is.
Yeah, it's not what I am that matters. what I do.
And...
I unlocked that potential.
Oh, Avery.
Avery just seems a bit lost in this scene though. what am I
doing?
How did my career come to this?
Yeah, there's a sort of crapness to this, but her performance is
so magnificent and what she's saying is pretty great.
And what she does, you know, is a kind of terrible thing, but, you
know, if it's true, we all benefit from the poetry of Keats and
Catalus.
It's the opposite of my usual...
Phineas Tarbolt.
My usual complaint is, you know, you have a great episode let down
by dreadful murder she wrote extra in one of the main parts.
This is a kind of substandard episode with a great guest character
actor in it.
Yeah, well, 2 great guest character actors, I think, as well.
Even the special effect when he shoots so lacklustre, we just
can't be bothered.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's season one.
Just a standard shot of something coming out of the station now.
Yep.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Snapping off.
And that's enough.
Happiness costume.
I'm starting to see where that Emmy came from, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, I think it. yeah, yeah.
I think it actually might be Majell's gone.
Gels costumes.
Like early, early Miguel in Star Trek, she wears very sort of sexy
costumes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
A really accentuator figure and show off her breast.
In this episode, it's all been really frumpy gown.
Well, she's pregnant.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But we still have day collartage.
We still get a bit of...
It looks beautiful.
Don't get me wrong.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
She's fabulous.
Oh, I love that.
She cuts through the crap.
He starts saying all these reasons as to why she should say and
she goes, yeah, I'll miss you too, Odo.
But it's not just that, is it?
It's not just that.
She's got it wrong.
I don't think this lad's at all like that, though.
What you want is company, someone to take care of, and it's like
no, that's not it.
My reading of this was she actually can read him and she knows
that he loves Kira and not her.
Whereas you're saying your reading of this is he is in love with
her and she's not getting it.
Well, she doesn't, she can't read him, can she?
We know that from previously.
The fact that the 2 of us watch this same scene and how 2
completely different readings suggest that the director wasn't
really clear.
No one's worked it out.
And I think it works well.
Like as a dramatic episode.
Maybe less so in the where we're going to take Odo kind of thing
because we're obviously going to put Odo and Kira together.
But having his heartbroken here because he can't tell her.
He can let her in in some ways and she's perfect for that, but he
can't tell her that he loves her.
And because she has just not a load of latex, Nathan.
Yeah, that doesn't work all that does it?
That's not super tender.
Oh, she called him husband.
And he called her white.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You could just see the Star Trek fans going, what?
What is this?
But I mean, I do think it doesn't properly land, and that's the
problem, isn't it?
It's a shame because it could have been a really great episode
about Odo getting his heart broken, but it is...
You know, I started acknowledging we are Star Trek fans.
We've done nearly 100 episodes of this podcast now.
I keep talking about them like we're not a part of them.
No, we are them, but I think we like different things maybe.
Like, I appreciate a good bit of technobabble and a good bit of
action on the station and everyone getting their phases and
tricorders out.
That's great.
Here, I thought it was just super lame and was padding out the
plot.
He's reading an and celebrity goes, I, I, especially like...
Like the dad.
Yeah.
Although, and of course he does a typical, you know, his game.
Yeah, the characters are great.
The plot was engaging. spelling was terrible.
Yeah, I thought that was really funny.
That was adorable.
And this as well.
You know, whether he can take responsibility for it or not, you
know, because like the muse, you know, inspiration, like poetic or
artistic inspiration is so inexplicable that we had the muses to
explain them.
And there's a, there's a Socratic dialogue, an early Socratic
dialogue, which is also about where do writers get their
inspiration from.
And we decide that it's got to be divine in some way, because we
don't know where it comes from.
And so the muse is a representation of that idea.
But he's, you know, deciding that he's taking responsibility.
He wrote this.
You know, she, you know, inspired him, but they were his words.
Did you notice now we see his book?
This was a musical queue from the visitor.
It's directly from the visitor.
So they make the link twice over.
And signing his name.
He signs his name to it.
Which is exactly how it is on the front of the book in the Vista.
Yeah, right.
But a dreadful sort of hologram version of it.
But like, and they say something about they needed to follow that
up.
They'd never sort of gone anywhere with that after the visitor and
it's kind of nice to have the origin story of that book in a sort
of Star Trek science fiction plot that still acknowledges that
it's his work.
One of the things that I've realised doing this podcast is just
how much I love the soap aspects of 90 Streak, but DS9 in
particular because DS9 only is into it more than all of the
others.
And I think the reason why I differentiate you and me from Star
Trek fandom, is Star Trek fandom as a whole would prefer faces
which is Star Trek.
Hycedral, you know, with a bit of horror thrown in and weird
aliens and all of that.
I prefer Muse, which is not an entirely successful episode, but
it's full of art and lovely characters and scenes that mean
something, you know?
Yeah.
So I think I think we are a world apart.
Star Trek fandom normally is.
Yeah, I, yeah, I mean, but like, I have to say that, like, it's
still Star Trek and I still sort of appreciate spaceships and
space stations and all of that sort of thing, and I like a good
procedural as well.
But here the procedural elements were very clearly just inserted
to beef up.
What was a fairly linear plot?
Do you know what I mean?
To find a way of resolving it in a Star Trek way, which ends up
being a fairly uninteresting way.
Like, what's a better way where Jake realises and rejects it
himself, isn't it?
Like where he says no go away to her for some reason.
Well, I wouldn't object, had, had she stimulated the book.
And then they said goodbye and she went off.
We still have that scene at the end with him talking to Cisco, go
we don't need.
They just feel like they need some kind of drama.
But it's so empty.
Yeah, but don't you think that that's their attempt?
That's what they do to that to turn it into the A-plot?
Is they put all that boring shit in the end and give it some
action and stuff and kind of ruin it?
And because they're not confident with how the B plot's going and
they're right because the B plot doesn't quite work.
But it nearly works.
And again, I think probably the fact that it's a serialised TV
show where they don't want to take Odo in that direction.
And having him heartbroken, overlook Xana's departure after a
really public wedding, so everyone knows what he said.
Do you know what I mean?
That's something that they could have gone with, but instead
because they don't want to do that, they kind of play it all down
and don't properly commit to it.
No one ever mentions it again.
Didn't you get married last week?
Where's she going?
Yeah, that's right.
That's right.
Yeah, no one ever mentions it again.
And sure, like that happens all the time in Deep Space 9, even.
There are things that happen where they kind of go, actually, we're
not going to take that any further.
We'll just leave that there.
We've just had the episode 2 weeks ago where O'Brien tried to
commit suicide after living out a 50-year prison sentence and was
talked out of it and was so right.
You know, being counselling for the next couple of years, we never
hear about it again.
That's right.
Yeah.
So there are some things that they just decide not to go with and
that's all fine.
But it is a little bit of a shame because I do think it, um, you
know, it just kind of wrecked that plot and I, I kind of like that
plot.
I think.
Just, I, one thing I want to say starter fans is, like sometimes
step away from what you expect Star Trek to be and just enjoy good
telly because on the terms of it being an amiable watch with good
actors delivering good work.
That's not the worst DS9 episode.
That's not the worst episode of series four.
It's a fun watch.
It's just not delivering anything that those people expect to
see.
You know, and it isn't quite as good as it probably should be.
No, I think that's true as well.
But it's fun.
I had fun with it Yeah, me too.
All right, it's the end of the episode and it is time for us to
work out what we're going to be watching next time.
It's my go on the randomiser, and I am going to choose the 3
series that we have done less than 10% of the episodes of.
I don't know what they are.
Tell me.
So they are Star Trek the animated series.
Oh great.
Star Trek, the next generation.
We haven't done 10%.
Oh, there's a lot of...
Yeah.
And Star Trek enterprise.
Okay.
Yeah, so this is a terrible mix.
I think there's a one in three, Charles.
We're going to get something truly abysmal then.
Yeah, oh, I think it'd be higher than that.
Go on, then, off you go.
Here goes.
Oh, now this is a two-parter.
We would have to watch both of them.
I've got the time, don't worry.
Part two.
Your random Star Trek, The Next Generation episode is birthright
part two.
Oh, wow, do you know that's the one that's set on DS 9, isn't it?
Yeah, yeah, but only episode one is set on DS9 and then all of
that goes away for episode two.
I believe only episode one is any good as well.
I seem to remember episode 2 then.
Very boring.
So it's like a Klingon colony that's isolated or something and
Wharf has to teach them true Klingon ways.
Data's having dreams about birds, boy, flying.
Well, that's in episode one.
And it's got that wonderful scene where Bashir comes on board the
Enterprise and he asks Data if his hair grows, which is so great.
It's so funny as well, because it's early Bashir when Sid was
doing like the dreadful British accent.
So he sort of walks in one scene and goes, data?
What's going on?
No, press it again.
I feel like I was All right.
Yeah, no.
All right, your random Star Trek Enterprise episode is season 3
episode 3, Extinction.
We've done one Zindi one, haven't we?
Because I'm sure that I've made fun of them.
Yeah.
You've made fun of them on episodes when we weren't covering it as
well.
Oh, that's right.
Nothing else to talk about.
Okay, this is Star Trek Enterprise season 2, episode 24, 1st
flight.
Oh, that's the one.
Well, we keep getting flashbacks.
It's Archer in the bar with a fella before they left Earth.
Right.
Just before the end of that season.
It's not like 1159, is it, in Voyager, where you've got...
And Kate Mulgrew getting to act her socks off.
Yeah, okay.
No.
Okay, season five, episode 9 of Star Trek, the Next Generation, a
matter of time.
Oh, let's do that.
That's a fun one.
Matt Frewer, isn't it?
It's Matt Frewer. as a guest star.
Robin Williams?
you sure?
Yeah, I don't think he was available.
And so we got Matt Frewery in Mac's headroom to be the guy and
he's super annoying.
It's another one of those sort of great guest actor ones.
It isn't like, I'm not sure it's a great episode, but it has got
one of the best ever Picard lines where finally, they've bested
Matt Frewer, and he goes, and by the way, Mr. Rasmussen, welcome
to the 24th century. century, yeah.
Oh, I think that's a good mid-level film TNG episode.
Yeah, yeah.
Okay.
I think I could go for that.
I do remember it's got the worst ever designed aliens in it.
They might be our new Beau Mars.
Oh excellent.
Because obviously there's some, there's a, there's like a dreadful
catastrophe occurring, isn't there?
that Matt Frewer knows about.
Oh, should you get involved, Captain, or should you not?
He's super annoying.
That's right We keep coming back to these boring aliens going
Captain Picard.
Help us out, please. really bad.
Sounds awesome.
I think that's the 5th 90s trek on the trot.
We do have to get through them.
You've been listening to Untitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford
and Nathan Bottomley.
We're online at untitled Star Trek project.com, where you can find
subscription links and links to our social media accounts.
Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceran, and the theme was
composed by Cameron Lamb.
This episode was recorded on the 30th of January 2024 and released
on the 2nd of February.
We'll see you next time for Star Trek the Next Generation, a
matter of time.
Yeah, I reckon that's all right.
I don't mind.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
I think we'll still be behind.
They were the 3 that are less than 10%.
So, yeah, the only 3 that are less.
Oh, probably kick us into Kurtzman next time because it's been a
while.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
We did our big Hertzman, didn't we, when we did, um, But that was
the 1st one this year that we came back.
I might just put in discovery actually, because I feel like we
haven't done discovery for a long, long time.
So we are 7 out of 55, 12.73% of discovery.
So there's only going to be 65 episodes of discovery overall.
Yeah.
Yeah, less than original track.
Yeah. 100 less than 3 of the 90 shows.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But, you know, like it was, it was where they cut their teeth on
things and where they got to make all their mistakes and stuff.
We said about transit the other day, you know, without these
mistakes being made, we wouldn't be where we are today.
No discovery, we don't get strange new worlds, you know, we don't
get lower decks.
We don't get any of it.
We don't get that.
And like you pointing out many times, in many ways, it's the
boldest of all of those.
Yeah.
The most DS9 like version of Star Trek in the new series, I
think.
Anyway.
I forget which ones we done.
Of DS of Discovery.
Discovery.
We did we did the trio one.
Oh, we did at the end of season, didn't we?
end of season three.
We did with the green lady.
Yeah, we did.
No, was it that HSU part two?
Asire.
We did one episode in series four.
Magic to make the sanest man go mad.
We did the Time Loop episode with Rain Wilson.
Volving ambition, which was a boring one in the mirror universe
the most boring episode of series one.
If memory serves, also maybe the most boring episode of series two
um, Forget Me Not, which was just stunningly beautiful from series
three.
That's the one with some.
Yeah, that's the true one.
We do the climax of series 3 as well, didn't we?
We did that hope is you part two, which is episode 17 of series.
And then we did the one where book went off at the end in the
midseason break in series 4, do you remember?
We did that one.
Yeah, so that's but to connect.
So the examples, remember?
Remember that handsome guy?
The prisoners.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Which I've got quite a few then.
And but to connect, which is, the, where they're trying to decide
what to do about the, what do they call?
The 10 C.
Yeah.
I feel like there's a lot of good discovery we haven't done yet
then, because a lot of those are bit dumb.
Yeah, that 2nd half of series 4 is magic.
It's so great.
Fuck, it's good.
I just couldn't believe it.
Each episode.
Who said to me?
Oh, Colin Neal.
He didn't get on without at all.
The series 4.
Series 4 as a whole, yeah.
Yeah, no, I liked it a lot.
I think it's the best season.
I think your opinion is... the widely perceived opinion. was the
best season, yeah.
Yeah, it sort of lands, but that, like, it gets the serialisation
absolutely perfect.
Like each episode is about a thing and contributes to a big
science fiction plot where they actually do science fiction and
like, and it's about reaching out with some aliens that are
completely incommensurate with anything that we know or
understand.
So it's really, really proper Star Trek.
And, you know, it's that thing, the thing that they're trying to
decide in, but to connect is, do we send a bomb to the 10 C or do
we reach out after they've destroyed Books Planet?
Do you know what I mean?
and look like they're going to kill more.
I think as I still remember to have Sanequa staring off camera
every now and again, tears in the eyes.
Do you remember, but to connect, where he leaves the ship, where
book leaves discovery and his shit, and she's just there going
shit.
You know, we just, you know, we go out of a midseason break and it
was, that was great.
I'll be interesting to see with five.
I just feel like the one, the 2 that we did in, or the characters
were just there at that point.
They were just, they were formed, they were delivering.
The actors were all great together.
We were just, so it would be interesting to see with the last
season.
It'd be interesting to see how they end it.
I think it's a caper or a heist or something too.
Like it sounds like they're going to be a bit more fun.
Yeah, yeah, I think that would be that would be great
particularly.
And looking over their shoulder at Stranger Wells and going, oh
look at all the fun they're having over there.
They are having fun over there, and but we could do a big
serialised story, which we do every year.
Like that's what we do on Star Trek Discovery.
So we get to do a single big heist over 10 episodes, which I think
will be really fun.
Yeah, sounds great.
Yeah, yeah.
And that starts in April.
So, so we get that in April on Doctor Who in May.
Hmm?
Yeah.
Happy days.