WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-06-06 at 23:22:13

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Hey, Joe. Hi.

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So, we're back on Deep Space 9 after a fairly long break, and we find ourselves back in series 7, as usual, and it's series 7, episode 6.

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Treachery, Faith, and the Great River.

4
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Something keeps drawing us to season 7, doesn't it?

5
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And away from series one. you know, where all the duds are.

6
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Well, I really enjoyed this, and so this is the 3rd episode that sees Nog going on a kind of bartering sort of mission.

7
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So, and we've done one of them.

8
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So in progress in series one.

9
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We have the no J consortum buying stem bolts and stuff.

10
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I know that was a bit of fluff, but we love it.

11
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I love it.

12
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

13
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I think it's really great.

14
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And then in the cards, I think, is perhaps the iteration of this idea that is the most interesting and works the best.

15
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No, I keep saying this, but we have technically done that one as well.

16
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We have, kind of.

17
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For a podcast that no longer or never did exist in the 1st place.

18
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That's right.

19
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It's sort of episode 0 or episode -one of untitled Star Trek project.

20
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We will definitely come back to it, I think.

21
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This, though, I think is really fun and agreeable.

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And in a season, that's kind of about the war and has a lot of things to wrap up.

23
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I'm always grateful that they ignored all of those fans who complained and just gave us hang time on the station with everyone doing fun things.

24
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And I thought that that plot worked incredibly well and was really agreeable and funny and likeable.

25
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Well, we almost catch up with everybody in that subplot in this, don't we?

26
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We see Kira, we see Esri, and we see Martok and Worf. everyone gets a moment in there.

27
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But the whole time, O'Brien's pulling his hair out more and more as Nog does his outrageous swaps in order to get this stabiliser, is it?

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I can't remember now.

29
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Some bit of technology that he needs for the defiant.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

31
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And all of that's fun and pep's one of the best parts of that subplot is how much fun column is as a Brian in that plot.

32
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And how eventually ends up being sort of carried away with the idea of the great river as well.

33
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He sort of adopts it as well.

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And I really like that too.

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It's like a hitherto unsuspected bit of harangue law that is just delightful.

36
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They make it up every year, don't they?

37
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And you know, Ira bear sitting there, you know, as they're sort of go through these scripts going, that's another version of the rules of acquisition, we can bring out this year.

38
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He's got the dollar signs in his eyes.

39
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So, so the other plot is the, is the more weighty, the more arc sort of ready plot, and it does actually push the arc along a little bit.

40
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I think there's a revelation at the end of the episode that is a proper revelation and does sort of push things on.

41
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I talk to this season and it's vital to Picard series 3 that we've just watched as well.

42
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Yeah, we didn't know it would have such an impact 20 odd years in the future.

43
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Yeah, there we go.

44
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Some twists are meant to last, aren't they?

45
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Yeah.

46
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And I thought that was really good. and again, you know, like sending Odo off always works quite well.

47
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And so here we have Odo and Wayoon in a really sort of surprising episode that changes even kind of the backstory a little bit. because we learned that the Wayoon, who was on the station, uh, during the that sort of occupation at the beginning of what, series 6, uh, is now dead, and did I do the line?

48
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Oh yeah, go on.

49
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His death in a transporter accident is highly suspicious.

50
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And that's really fun.

51
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Like, that's a funny thing to do.

52
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And so now we have a new Wayoon who's with Damar, and we didn't really know that he was new when we 1st saw that.

53
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And we have this 7th wave in the 7th wave in the Sylvester McCoy of Waones, who shares faith with the other Waoon, but it expresses itself in a really different way.

54
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And so, like, there's a sense in which the 2 subplots are really not...

55
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Yeah.

56
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But they are tenuously linked, but they are properly linked with the idea of faith.

57
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And I think that makes a nice change, and it does kind of beef up the B plot a little bit more too, because it becomes about something interesting and something that's happening in the A-plot.

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What did you think of the A-plot?

59
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What impressed me so much when I 1st watched this was I was utterly convinced this whole thing was a ruse all the way through.

60
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No matter no matter how good Jeffrey Coomb's performance was as the nice way in.

61
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I was convinced they were trying to get some tactical data because that's DS9's thing. is that it comes in with a big sort of political sting at the end and you're like, oh, that's what this was all about.

62
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And so the scene at the end where he commits suicide.

63
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Obviously we'll get there. in order to save Odo's life.

64
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It's so moving.

65
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Because that's the point where I'm like, okay, no, this has been for real the whole time.

66
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I want to watch this episode again and see this other reading on it now as well.

67
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And just beyond that, to Jeffrey Coombs in one episode.

68
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One is amazing. 2 is out of this world.

69
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I think he's brilliant.

70
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The performances as a whole in that, Renee Oberjonois and Casey Biggs as well.

71
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Casey Biggs, who just continues to impress me, the more I see him in these last season.

72
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He's really good.

73
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And they're just the very subtle things they're doing as well.

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Like him drinking the canal so much and stuff like that, which comes in really important later.

75
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They're seeding a lot in these 1st sort of 5 or 6 episodes of series 7.

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You don't really realise they're doing it.

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It's not until later when it all comes to fruition.

78
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I think it's great.

79
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My one issue with it, I did say I had one big complaint was that, essentially, all the dramatic incident is told via exposition.

80
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So we learn an awful lot in this episode and all the juicy stuff, like, you know, the disease hitting the great link or she walks in at one and we do see it.

81
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Yeah, we sort of be hitting a scabby face and all, sorry, to anybody who's something.

82
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But, But it does feel like we're talking about a lot of instant and Wayoon's death.

83
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All this stuff that's happened off screen.

84
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So it feels like we're cutting to after the drama and just talking about all of the consequences.

85
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But these are actors that can handle this sort of expository dialogue really really well.

86
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And at the same time it's telling a strong character story.

87
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So it gets away with it.

88
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But it is unlike DS9 to sort of cut from the drama and just talk about the consequences.

89
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Yeah, I mean, because this isn't an episode so much about the disease.

90
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It's just introducing whatever that disease is.

91
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And we'll learn and see more of that later.

92
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So it's just on the periphery of this episode.

93
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Whereas this episode is in some way about Odo becoming okay with the way that Wayun worships him, I guess.

94
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So it's so sweet, that bit at the end, where he says it gives him his blessing. plays it so well.

95
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It's really good.

96
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I'm finding more and more as I go through DS9 that these quiet revelations are far more affecting than the big, you know, dramatic moments that they try to sell all the time.

97
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So, you know, you've got, I don't know, sacrifice danger, which you've got all the fireworks going on and things like that.

98
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The Klingons are coming in and all of this is supposed to really make us feel something.

99
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But actually, it's, you can't cradling his child at the end in a very quiet moment as she dies in his arms.

100
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Those are the bits that really get to me.

101
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And I think this is a great example of it.

102
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There's another one in what you leave behind, you know, with the war coming to an end and Odo in the female shapeshifter just having a quick moment together.

103
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Oh, there are those sort of smaller moments that are just so well acted.

104
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I think that's DS9 Street.

105
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I think that's where they do their best work.

106
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Although I do like some big dumb spectacle, and there is a little bit of spectacle here unusually for an episode like this, and we'll get to that as well.

107
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Well, because it sort of becomes a cat mouse chase, doesn't it?

108
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Yeah, and I think that's done really well, like well realised.

109
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But then even within that, it's still reacting, that's the best.

110
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I love the bit where Wayoon, the, you know, the evil Wayoon decides, well, you know, well, we will bump off Odo.

111
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And it starts off by saying, you know, we can't kill a changeling.

112
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I forbid it.

113
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And then he's like, we can't let them know who's on that ship.

114
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

115
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He's so good.

116
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I mean, what a gift Jeffrey Codes was for this show.

117
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What a gift.

118
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Well, in fact, it's the faith of that Wayoon of Wayoon 6 that's perhaps more interesting than the faith of Wayoon 7.

119
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I think.

120
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And we'll talk about that as we go.

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What do you think?

122
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Should we go in?

123
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Let's definitely go in.

124
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Yes.

125
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All right.

126
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I'll count us in.

127
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Five, four, three, two, one, and we're off.

128
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All right, so this scene is terrible.

129
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I love this. is the dirtiest opening to any episode of Star Trek.

130
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She's going a little lower.

131
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Oh, lower.

132
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It's, but I'm just getting, and that, like that terrible special effect of, of his, um, shapeshifter hand.

133
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And, you know, just a few weeks ago, we learned that in fact, shapeshifters, changelings look like raw chicken meat.

134
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And so that was all I could think of when she's being massaged by him.

135
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And I'm also thinking that that special effect is there to cover the fact that Renee Obishonoir has old manhands at this point, which we see.

136
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The special effect is the preferable option.

137
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What I do like about this scene is it is 2 characters in a mature relationship having like essential moment, which is something that we kind of asked for.

138
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And I'll buy the relationship.

139
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I guess, though, that I think it doesn't quite work because it's not about what the episode is about.

140
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And so this scene should be establishing how Odo feels about the way that the Vorter worship the changelings.

141
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And because he doesn't suspect there's a changeling or because they've set the plot up that way, you know, he looks like he's going to meet a Cardassian.

142
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We don't get the starting point here, which we probably should at the beginning.

143
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Well, it is sort of doing that DS line thing of leading you to think it's going to be one sort type of episode.

144
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A lot of them do this.

145
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A lot of the big hitters start with a quiet moment.

146
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It's like, oh, okay, I'm going to go off and investigate this thing.

147
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And then it turns out by the end of the pre-tartle sequence, we're in completely different territory.

148
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Yeah.

149
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Look at the state of the promenade.

150
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Why is the promenade in this state?

151
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we know?

152
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Well, he said the environmental systems have gone down or something like that.

153
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So, I don't know, maybe it's filled with fog or something.

154
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Who knows?

155
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But it does look like a terrible mess, doesn't it?

156
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It's not something from last week. that, uh, no, okay.

157
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Right.

158
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Of course, quartz appalled because he can't make any money because no one can get to the bar.

159
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I love this bit with Cisco.

160
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He's so succinct with threatening him, isn't he?

161
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You will do this by the time I get back.

162
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

163
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And he goes, I'll try.

164
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And then Cisco sort of goes, hmm, and then walks off.

165
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I do like how he sells the fact that he was 10 kilos heavier on the Bridge of the Defiant, which I just thought was really great.

166
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It's like, it's making me fat.

167
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Can you fix it, please?

168
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He's so beautiful, Avery Brooks, isn't he?

169
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I wonder.

170
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Petty Johnson Gerald was excited every time she did the shot with him.

171
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Yeah, he's looking great, isn't he?

172
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So so, oh, okay.

173
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So we've already got Nog listening in on that conversation and now he's coming to fix the problem and it's so great.

174
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It's really, really terrifically funny.

175
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This is the tipping point because he gives, he gives Nog his authorisation code.

176
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So now Nog has got carte blanche to do what everyone wants.

177
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So the entire episode.

178
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Yep.

179
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The entire episode people are coming up to O'Brien just incredibly pissed off with him because it's something that Mark has done.

180
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The best spirit I will get there is the whole bit around the desk.

181
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I just love that so much.

182
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It's so fun.

183
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But the blood wine thing is pretty great as well. and sort of beautifully resolved.

184
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In in the cards, the glorious thing about it was the way that all of the trades that Jake and Nog had to do made everyone happier, and it's like the night before the war begins, or we're expecting the occupation at any and we just get a little moment, a little reprieve, which I just think is beautiful.

185
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Here, you know, what we have are these sort of comedy moments where everyone's angry and then they're appeased and everything ends up being better than they expected.

186
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And again, it's a kind of supernatural thing.

187
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And in the cards, it was that cellular entertainment machine that was making that happen here.

188
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It's the great river.

189
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Oh, just at a moment to say just how effortlessly charming Aaron Eisenberg is.

190
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Oh, so good.

191
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Like, he's so watchable.

192
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And I really think that's underrated with actors.

193
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People could say, oh, they're nuanced.

194
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They're incredible actors, but he's just so effortlessly watchable.

195
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Yeah, he's really good, isn't he?

196
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Oh, look at this. moody lighting.

197
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We're down in stock case set number 68.

198
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Yeah, it's number one.

199
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So, Gul Rasol is actually dead, but we didn't really care anyway, did we?

200
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No, I do love how this is lit, though. sort of harsh sort of angry lighting in this cave.

201
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Which we complain a lot about the flat lighting in 90s trick.

202
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

203
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I think, you know, like this is pretty good.

204
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This is pretty good.

205
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Well, he sort of steps into the light and his eyes, his blue eyes where you pop in this light.

206
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

207
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It's very striking.

208
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Although you can see the flaky makeup as usual.

209
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I did spend quite a bit of this episode feeling sorry for Renee, actually.

210
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And there's a moment where he, there's a really touching moment, the big moment of the episode, where he has to convey something, but he can't do it with his face because he's got the fucking slab of latex on it.

211
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Well, the fact that he manages to convey so much emotion for that mask.

212
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It's extraordinary, isn't it?

213
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But it does seem like a bit of a thing.

214
00:15:56.580 --> 00:16:00.659
It was like we thought it was bad that Lever Burton's eyes were covered. for 7 years.

215
00:16:01.320 --> 00:16:04.740
I think he does it whip his body as well, Renee.

216
00:16:04.799 --> 00:16:08.519
He just carries himself in ways that really are quite affecting.

217
00:16:08.639 --> 00:16:17.039
I'll try and remember to point out that bit of acting, which I thought was really good, that he does, you know, without having a facial expression.

218
00:16:17.100 --> 00:16:21.299
He's like, how do I do a reaction without using my facial features?

219
00:16:22.320 --> 00:16:24.600
It's pretty extraordinary.

220
00:16:24.659 --> 00:16:26.700
I wasn't convinced at all.

221
00:16:26.820 --> 00:16:28.559
This whole, you know, do with me what you will.

222
00:16:28.620 --> 00:16:31.379
I could place myself entirely in your hands.

223
00:16:31.440 --> 00:16:33.120
I'm defecting to the Federation.

224
00:16:33.179 --> 00:16:36.899
I was sitting here watching this the 1st time I go, no way, whatever.

225
00:16:36.960 --> 00:16:43.019
And even Odo says, you know, you're defecting, like you can barely believe what he's hearing.

226
00:16:43.080 --> 00:16:49.980
It becomes more credible when we know that there's another way in back home, like still back on Cardassia.

227
00:16:50.039 --> 00:16:53.580
But at this point, it is a pretty shocking opening, isn't it?

228
00:16:53.639 --> 00:16:54.179
I guess.

229
00:16:54.240 --> 00:17:02.639
The fact that I would have had to have edited that scene together with Jeffrey Coombs playing both parts against 2 different actors.

230
00:17:02.759 --> 00:17:04.019
I love it.

231
00:17:04.079 --> 00:17:05.519
So good.

232
00:17:05.579 --> 00:17:13.200
Oh, I mean, the fact that that was improvised move, bringing Coombs back and making the water clones.

233
00:17:13.259 --> 00:17:22.559
The fact that they took something that they just decided to do because they wanted the actor back and then made incredible like creative choices around it.

234
00:17:22.680 --> 00:17:29.700
Yeah, yeah, it becomes part of the law and it is really just because we were fucking idiots to kill off Jeffrey last time.

235
00:17:29.759 --> 00:17:31.019
Let's get him back.

236
00:17:31.079 --> 00:17:34.140
You go back and watch it in that episode to the death.

237
00:17:34.200 --> 00:17:35.460
He is amazing in that.

238
00:17:35.579 --> 00:17:40.200
Like us making, while making it, I would have said, no, no, change the ending.

239
00:17:40.259 --> 00:17:41.460
We don't work anymore.

240
00:17:41.519 --> 00:17:50.759
Actually, I'm believed they did because all of these jokes around, you know, the various clones, the bit later in the season where he gets his neck snapped by wolves in the cell.

241
00:17:50.759 --> 00:17:52.440
Oh, yeah.

242
00:17:52.440 --> 00:17:54.480
Damar just laughs his head off at it. is great.

243
00:17:54.779 --> 00:17:58.200
Well, don't they destroy the clone things?

244
00:17:58.200 --> 00:18:00.119
Like they destroy the...

245
00:18:00.180 --> 00:18:02.519
Oh, that's why he picked that target.

246
00:18:02.579 --> 00:18:03.720
Yeah, yeah.

247
00:18:03.839 --> 00:18:06.539
So here we get the I'm not a founder.

248
00:18:06.599 --> 00:18:09.900
So I guess that's our starting point, isn't it?

249
00:18:09.960 --> 00:18:11.220
I'm not a founder.

250
00:18:11.279 --> 00:18:11.819
Yeah.

251
00:18:11.880 --> 00:18:15.599
I do like how the episode does top and tail with Odo and Kira, though.

252
00:18:15.660 --> 00:18:16.859
I do like that.

253
00:18:16.920 --> 00:18:18.839
It does give it sort of nice symmetry.

254
00:18:18.900 --> 00:18:19.380
Yeah.

255
00:18:20.160 --> 00:18:23.880
Oh, I know, just reminds us, like, I think you're right.

256
00:18:23.940 --> 00:18:28.559
The fact that the characters are in relationships with one another is actually pretty good, I think.

257
00:18:29.400 --> 00:18:33.359
You can do better than that, he says. you?

258
00:18:35.940 --> 00:18:40.740
Yeah, it just it all just felt a bit flimsy and then you're right.

259
00:18:40.799 --> 00:18:51.299
As we go to the runabout, as we learn about why he's left, as their relationship deepens, you start, it's like 2nd skin, you know, when you're presented with something.

260
00:18:51.359 --> 00:18:56.940
That's so obviously, and then throughout the episode, you're slowly sort of coming around to, oh, is this?

261
00:18:57.000 --> 00:18:57.599
Yeah, yeah.

262
00:18:57.660 --> 00:18:58.680
Really happening?

263
00:18:58.740 --> 00:19:08.400
Because this is very much the old, you know, um, uh, Weyun defects to the uh, Federation episode.

264
00:19:08.460 --> 00:19:09.240
Do you know what I mean?

265
00:19:09.359 --> 00:19:11.099
Like, that's the elevator pitch for it.

266
00:19:11.160 --> 00:19:16.980
And you kind of think, yes, well, we have to go back to the status quo anti at the end of this.

267
00:19:17.039 --> 00:19:18.119
So how is this going to work?

268
00:19:18.180 --> 00:19:26.759
What's a shame is, is I would have loved to have seen a way in with the Federation, and a way in, way in versus way in, in the war.

269
00:19:26.819 --> 00:19:28.740
Yeah, that's 10 episode...

270
00:19:28.799 --> 00:19:30.359
We could have put Jeff in every scene.

271
00:19:31.200 --> 00:19:39.779
And even here where he says, there's a kept yourself white facility in sector 507. you know, you can attack that or whatever. given them vital.

272
00:19:39.839 --> 00:19:46.619
Even that I was like, well, they've planted that. to convince him, you know, again, that's the sort of thing that DS9 does all the time.

273
00:19:46.680 --> 00:19:48.900
So he's sort of playing with our expectations.

274
00:19:49.380 --> 00:19:55.740
So the one thing that I discovered, which I thought was really great, and it's absolutely down to memory, Alfred.

275
00:19:55.799 --> 00:20:03.720
It never occurred to me, although of course it should, is that we're on the runabout Rio Grande, which obviously means Great River.

276
00:20:03.779 --> 00:20:09.779
And so we have a great river in the A plot and the B plot, which I just think is very cute.

277
00:20:09.839 --> 00:20:20.099
You know, I think that they do a decent job of tying these plots together thematically, even though the B plot is just agreeable filler, I think.

278
00:20:20.160 --> 00:20:23.579
I love that promenade say, you know.

279
00:20:23.640 --> 00:20:25.380
I know it's been an obvious thing to say.

280
00:20:25.440 --> 00:20:32.400
It's just so nice to have somewhere so roomy and a bit, what am I going to say, exotic, but just a bit different from what you normally see in Star Trek.

281
00:20:32.460 --> 00:20:33.900
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

282
00:20:33.960 --> 00:20:38.460
Just different colours and sort of weird elements, weird design elements thrown together and stuff.

283
00:20:38.519 --> 00:20:40.799
I think it's a really, really great.

284
00:20:40.859 --> 00:20:47.880
I saw corridors in next gen and in Voyager. very boring in comparison, you know?

285
00:20:48.180 --> 00:20:52.019
And they fill it full of it and they don't at the moment because they do it repairs.

286
00:20:52.079 --> 00:20:53.640
Normally I just fill it full of extras.

287
00:20:53.700 --> 00:20:54.480
So it feels busy.

288
00:20:54.539 --> 00:20:56.400
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

289
00:20:56.460 --> 00:20:57.720
Oh, here we go.

290
00:20:57.779 --> 00:20:58.500
It started.

291
00:21:00.420 --> 00:21:09.180
So he's traded 2 things already. and then it goes, yeah, well, that's the rumour that they want it. he goes, you've done all this based on a rumour?

292
00:21:10.079 --> 00:21:14.940
Rule of acquisition 168, whisper your way to success.

293
00:21:15.000 --> 00:21:17.880
I love how he says words to live by.

294
00:21:17.940 --> 00:21:19.319
That's okay.

295
00:21:19.380 --> 00:21:21.960
This is where he gives him his authorisation code.

296
00:21:22.019 --> 00:21:24.960
He thinks it's going to be nice and easy at this point.

297
00:21:25.019 --> 00:21:25.740
Yeah.

298
00:21:25.799 --> 00:21:26.700
Yeah, yeah.

299
00:21:26.759 --> 00:21:30.720
And we, I think that we know that it's going to turn out fine.

300
00:21:30.779 --> 00:21:32.279
Don't you think?

301
00:21:32.339 --> 00:21:35.279
Oh, it's so long the tone of this.

302
00:21:35.339 --> 00:21:36.599
Yeah, there's no way, yeah.

303
00:21:36.660 --> 00:21:37.920
No, no, no.

304
00:21:37.980 --> 00:21:43.740
But I think, you know, like he, we know that he's going to get in trouble and that it's, it's all going to turn out fine.

305
00:21:43.799 --> 00:21:46.440
But putting the desk on the line is really funny.

306
00:21:46.500 --> 00:21:48.779
Like that's a really funny twist.

307
00:21:48.839 --> 00:21:51.119
Well, it's carer's reaction.

308
00:21:51.180 --> 00:21:52.500
We'll get to it.

309
00:21:52.799 --> 00:21:55.200
And the replacement's even worse.

310
00:21:55.259 --> 00:21:59.640
Have you noticed how these, how these runabouts used to be the size of a cupboard?

311
00:21:59.700 --> 00:22:02.279
Now they're the size of a reasonable sized hotel room.

312
00:22:02.400 --> 00:22:04.079
Yeah, yeah, they're pretty big.

313
00:22:04.140 --> 00:22:05.099
They are pretty big.

314
00:22:05.160 --> 00:22:08.039
And yet, the exterior hasn't changed at all.

315
00:22:11.279 --> 00:22:13.980
Is this a is this a cheapy then?

316
00:22:14.039 --> 00:22:15.299
If we're all in the runabout?

317
00:22:15.359 --> 00:22:16.200
Is this a cheapy?

318
00:22:16.259 --> 00:22:18.420
I suppose there's a fair bit of CGI in this?

319
00:22:18.480 --> 00:22:19.799
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

320
00:22:19.859 --> 00:22:25.440
I mean, it's, you know, they're all cheapies from our point of view now in the distant future, I think.

321
00:22:25.500 --> 00:22:31.259
So there's Zarafil of the other Wayoon, and here's Tamar.

322
00:22:31.500 --> 00:22:34.079
This whole sequence is great.

323
00:22:34.200 --> 00:22:40.019
And it's just the scene between 4 actors on a screen, but it's so funny.

324
00:22:40.259 --> 00:22:51.059
So Jeffrey Coombes says that this is his favourite episode and that he did his best to try and make them different.

325
00:22:51.180 --> 00:22:54.480
I think he's...

326
00:22:54.539 --> 00:22:54.900
Yeah.

327
00:22:54.960 --> 00:22:56.819
Yeah, I think he does.

328
00:22:56.880 --> 00:23:00.539
I feel like the way you know Kardashian is sort of more the way you and we're used to.

329
00:23:00.599 --> 00:23:01.619
Yes.

330
00:23:01.619 --> 00:23:06.059
It seems a bit devious, you know, and overcomplicated.

331
00:23:06.119 --> 00:23:08.880
Whereas the other one, he feels very gentle, doesn't he?

332
00:23:08.940 --> 00:23:10.440
And he just feels like a nice guy.

333
00:23:10.680 --> 00:23:12.539
Yeah, yeah.

334
00:23:12.599 --> 00:23:27.599
Like, I think that the interesting thing, though, is that they both share the same faith in the founders and the way that Damar is able to get him to kind of persuade him to go against that is interesting.

335
00:23:27.660 --> 00:23:34.619
And it does put Demari is on the, you know, like he's, he has the upper hand for some of this, I think.

336
00:23:34.680 --> 00:23:36.240
Did your ear is line then?

337
00:23:36.299 --> 00:23:42.240
Clones keeping track of them with a full-time job. 7 of them, Casey.

338
00:23:42.299 --> 00:23:43.980
Just calm down, you can cope.

339
00:23:44.099 --> 00:23:47.700
Oh, listen to me. are you calling Odo your enemy?

340
00:23:47.759 --> 00:23:50.940
I was talking about the Federation, as you're very aware.

341
00:23:51.720 --> 00:23:55.019
I love it when the same actor is being bitchy with himself.

342
00:23:55.079 --> 00:23:56.519
Yes, yeah, yeah.

343
00:23:56.579 --> 00:23:58.259
Oh, here we go.

344
00:23:58.319 --> 00:23:59.759
The termination implant.

345
00:23:59.819 --> 00:24:01.740
So we've setting it up for the conclusion of the episode.

346
00:24:01.799 --> 00:24:02.819
Is that new?

347
00:24:02.880 --> 00:24:04.740
We've never heard of that before.

348
00:24:04.799 --> 00:24:06.000
Okay, of course.

349
00:24:06.000 --> 00:24:07.799
I mean, you could have just picked up a gun.

350
00:24:07.859 --> 00:24:08.640
But it's...

351
00:24:08.640 --> 00:24:10.619
I guess it might have been.

352
00:24:10.619 --> 00:24:12.059
If you're taking prisoner.

353
00:24:12.119 --> 00:24:13.859
Yeah, yep.

354
00:24:13.920 --> 00:24:19.259
I think, though, it also makes the gods awful.

355
00:24:19.319 --> 00:24:28.140
And there's that one moment, you know, where Odo tries to convince Weon that the founders are not gods.

356
00:24:28.200 --> 00:24:28.980
They're not good.

357
00:24:29.039 --> 00:24:33.180
They've just genetically engineered you to believe that they're gods.

358
00:24:33.240 --> 00:24:40.319
And the response to that is so perfect, which is, yes, that is exactly the sort of thing that God's would.

359
00:24:40.380 --> 00:24:43.259
Doesn't he say, why would you be a god if there's no one to serve you?

360
00:24:43.319 --> 00:24:44.759
Or something.

361
00:24:44.819 --> 00:24:45.359
That's the lie.

362
00:24:45.420 --> 00:24:48.599
And so, and there is cruelty in it, isn't there?

363
00:24:48.660 --> 00:24:53.819
Because he expects that activating it to be painless and it's not.

364
00:24:53.819 --> 00:24:57.059
And he's been told it's painless, but that's wrong.

365
00:24:57.119 --> 00:25:02.700
You know, so the cruelty of the founders as gods is pretty interesting here.

366
00:25:02.759 --> 00:25:06.180
And it's not centred in the episode, but it's just.

367
00:25:06.240 --> 00:25:07.380
It's an extra layer, isn't it?

368
00:25:07.500 --> 00:25:12.240
on top of what we've already seen with the Gemazar and their addiction to the Y, which is also very cruel.

369
00:25:12.299 --> 00:25:13.440
Yeah, yeah.

370
00:25:13.500 --> 00:25:18.539
And just things like the quickening where they've, you know, blighted entire planets and things like that.

371
00:25:18.599 --> 00:25:20.039
Like, they're a credible threat.

372
00:25:20.099 --> 00:25:21.000
Yeah.

373
00:25:21.119 --> 00:25:22.859
If you do that to your own people.

374
00:25:22.920 --> 00:25:25.319
What the hell are you going to do for the enemy, you know?

375
00:25:25.559 --> 00:25:27.900
And that's what's interesting about it?

376
00:25:27.960 --> 00:25:41.099
Remember when we did sort of series 3 of enterprise and we had the sort of the Zindi who just sort of came in a variety of shapes and sizes and sort of how crap and unearned that was?

377
00:25:41.160 --> 00:25:44.400
Whereas this is done really properly, isn't it?

378
00:25:44.460 --> 00:25:45.960
And they sort of piece it together.

379
00:25:46.019 --> 00:25:48.720
Like they don't have a grand plan, I don't think.

380
00:25:48.779 --> 00:25:58.440
Like, I think that by this point we have the 4 to the Jemhadar and the founders and their relationships and all of that very clearly established, but they make it up as they go along, don't they?

381
00:25:58.500 --> 00:26:00.839
They ceded the Dominion in series 2.

382
00:26:01.019 --> 00:26:18.000
They came along at the end of series 2 and then in 3 and four, they did a series of character tales, like slower tales where they examined the power structure inside the Dominion and, you know, each of the three, the, you know, the founders, the Vorta and the Gemadar.

383
00:26:18.119 --> 00:26:28.619
That meant when it came to the war stuff, when we were becoming more serialised, all that stuff had been established, and you can start doing interesting dramatic things like this with it, where you start surprising people.

384
00:26:28.680 --> 00:26:31.440
That's quite, you do, you need the time.

385
00:26:31.500 --> 00:26:35.279
You need the time to establish things in order for them to pay off.

386
00:26:35.339 --> 00:26:36.839
Enterprise had one season.

387
00:26:36.900 --> 00:26:39.779
That was it was ill defined as well.

388
00:26:39.839 --> 00:26:42.359
Like you probably could do it in 26 episodes.

389
00:26:42.420 --> 00:26:43.980
That's 26 hours of telly.

390
00:26:44.039 --> 00:26:44.579
Yeah.

391
00:26:44.579 --> 00:26:50.519
So, so is this the 1st that we've seen of Tamar drinking?

392
00:26:50.579 --> 00:26:52.019
No.

393
00:26:52.079 --> 00:26:56.160
Do you remember he had that woman on his arm in Shadows and Symbols?

394
00:26:56.220 --> 00:26:57.599
Oh, yeah.

395
00:26:57.599 --> 00:26:59.700
And he was drinking, one arm was the woman.

396
00:26:59.759 --> 00:27:00.720
One arm was the drink.

397
00:27:00.779 --> 00:27:01.500
That's right.

398
00:27:01.559 --> 00:27:02.099
That's right.

399
00:27:02.160 --> 00:27:05.640
That's where he went, what a what a charming woman.

400
00:27:06.180 --> 00:27:07.799
That's right.

401
00:27:07.859 --> 00:27:09.119
I might have to kill her.

402
00:27:09.299 --> 00:27:13.559
But you never, you always know tomorrow's out of his death, don't you?

403
00:27:13.619 --> 00:27:14.759
Like, you're never in any now.

404
00:27:14.819 --> 00:27:16.980
He's not here though, is he?

405
00:27:17.099 --> 00:27:23.039
Like, he actually, that's why he offers Wayuna drink, don't you think?

406
00:27:23.099 --> 00:27:33.420
Because he's in charge because Wayoon's embarrassed about the fact that it was a Wayoon who has defected and so he's on the back foot.

407
00:27:33.420 --> 00:27:46.680
And here we have a situation where DeMar can handle the situation because he doesn't give a shit about whether he kills Odo or not, but Wayoon does and look at what's at stake.

408
00:27:46.740 --> 00:27:47.339
And look at them.

409
00:27:47.400 --> 00:27:48.180
Do you know what I mean?

410
00:27:48.240 --> 00:27:54.180
Like, it, like, he's absolutely in charge and, and, um, and, uh, Wayoon isn't.

411
00:27:54.180 --> 00:27:57.480
Oh, Combs is totally stealing this scene.

412
00:27:57.539 --> 00:27:58.799
He's not even saying a word.

413
00:27:58.859 --> 00:28:00.299
He's just staring off camera.

414
00:28:01.680 --> 00:28:07.500
I do think Casey Biggs is great, but oh, he can do something with stillness.

415
00:28:07.559 --> 00:28:09.059
He's great.

416
00:28:09.119 --> 00:28:12.180
Look at him smiling here as he suggests this.

417
00:28:12.240 --> 00:28:13.619
Look at him smiling.

418
00:28:13.680 --> 00:28:14.400
It's wonderful.

419
00:28:14.460 --> 00:28:15.420
Look.

420
00:28:16.980 --> 00:28:25.380
Remember we said about reunion last week about how extraordinary it was to see things from the enemy's point of view.

421
00:28:25.440 --> 00:28:33.599
Well, we've got to a point in DS9 now, where there's an entire subplot running on Cardassia with the enemy.

422
00:28:33.660 --> 00:28:36.720
It makes the show so much more interesting as a result.

423
00:28:36.779 --> 00:28:40.799
And often it's camp like, and that's kind of a fun thing.

424
00:28:40.859 --> 00:28:42.119
We love that too.

425
00:28:42.180 --> 00:28:43.200
Usually camp.

426
00:28:43.259 --> 00:28:44.700
But I mean, this is great.

427
00:28:44.759 --> 00:28:49.259
It's actually fun to see Tamara on the look at him. absolutely winning this scene.

428
00:28:49.319 --> 00:28:49.859
It's awesome.

429
00:28:49.920 --> 00:28:51.900
Come on, I do love.

430
00:28:52.920 --> 00:28:59.700
I do love how Wyung doesn't even say yes, you know, destroyed a runabout, he just does it with a look.

431
00:28:59.819 --> 00:29:02.099
Yeah, yeah, but he also just walks off.

432
00:29:02.160 --> 00:29:07.859
He doesn't like, you know, um, look, uh, have another drink, Casey.

433
00:29:07.920 --> 00:29:09.000
What is that?

434
00:29:09.599 --> 00:29:11.819
It's treacle, isn't it?

435
00:29:11.880 --> 00:29:12.960
No, no, no, no.

436
00:29:13.019 --> 00:29:22.380
The I think the glass is has a sort of is not glass. for reasons of...

437
00:29:23.400 --> 00:29:25.380
See you, Esrie.

438
00:29:25.500 --> 00:29:26.579
Just say, bye, Nicole.

439
00:29:26.640 --> 00:29:27.720
Thanks for your scene.

440
00:29:27.720 --> 00:29:29.160
The lift's working this week.

441
00:29:29.220 --> 00:29:30.599
Sort of.

442
00:29:30.660 --> 00:29:32.640
How weird does that set?

443
00:29:32.700 --> 00:29:35.099
How does weird does his office look without the desk in it?

444
00:29:35.160 --> 00:29:36.660
It's awesome, isn't it?

445
00:29:37.019 --> 00:29:39.180
So this is the 1st time.

446
00:29:40.019 --> 00:29:42.599
He only has to say one word.

447
00:29:42.660 --> 00:29:43.740
Nog.

448
00:29:45.299 --> 00:30:01.859
And, and, um, and it's, I love the idea that it's a guy at such a lower decks kind of conceit where there's this guy who wants to get his photograph behind everyone's desks and he's already got, he's studied with all the best.

449
00:30:01.920 --> 00:30:03.960
Captain DeSoto, Captain Picard.

450
00:30:04.019 --> 00:30:15.420
I had to look up Captain DeSoto, but of course Captain DeSoto was the person who recommended Riker, like who Riker served under before the Enterprise.

451
00:30:15.480 --> 00:30:21.839
I think the direction in this subplot is really great because they keep doing comic cuts.

452
00:30:21.900 --> 00:30:25.319
So you went there, straight to not going, don't worry, chief.

453
00:30:25.380 --> 00:30:26.640
I'll get the desktop.

454
00:30:26.700 --> 00:30:35.940
So, we're trusted to sort of very quickly go into the next bit, and then later on, we cut straight to Martok going, where are my clays, there's our blood, why?

455
00:30:39.000 --> 00:30:41.819
No, he doesn't have the stabiliser.

456
00:30:43.079 --> 00:30:46.740
But we don't need an induction modulator.

457
00:30:46.859 --> 00:30:50.940
I feel like they're taking a piss out the technobab war bit as well.

458
00:30:51.000 --> 00:31:06.480
They are a little bit, but remember self stealing stem bolts, which actually date all the way back from progress, and that was, like, it was, uh, you know, Jake saying that we didn't need self stealing stem bolts, and indeed we don't actually know what they are.

459
00:31:06.539 --> 00:31:14.579
Watch Eisenberg's performance here, where he talks about the, you know, the great river and the material continuum and all that. sort of wistfully.

460
00:31:14.640 --> 00:31:18.599
No matter how much they put that federation dogma inside of him.

461
00:31:18.660 --> 00:31:20.339
He's still a Ferengi, isn't he?

462
00:31:20.400 --> 00:31:21.839
He still believes in this stuff.

463
00:31:21.900 --> 00:31:35.519
But it's also that thing too, which I think is wonderful where at the very beginning, he, the 1st thing that he asks, uh, O'Brien is, what's his 1st name, you know, who's his wife, what does he want?

464
00:31:35.579 --> 00:31:37.980
you know because he still thinks like that.

465
00:31:38.039 --> 00:31:41.339
And this is a strength that he brings.

466
00:31:41.400 --> 00:31:46.740
You know, being a Ferengi, is not a is isn't a liability here.

467
00:31:46.799 --> 00:31:50.039
It's helping him help O'Brien do his job better.

468
00:31:50.099 --> 00:32:04.380
I love how this is explained, all these 1000000s of worlds, filled with too much of one thing and not enough of another, and there's like a mighty river flowing through it, fabulous, from have to want to have again.

469
00:32:04.440 --> 00:32:06.180
It's really good, isn't it?

470
00:32:06.240 --> 00:32:11.579
And he even talks about navigating the river with grace as well.

471
00:32:11.640 --> 00:32:12.480
It's wonderful.

472
00:32:13.500 --> 00:32:16.799
And the river will provide, you know.

473
00:32:17.640 --> 00:32:39.900
But it's also, it's also, like, you know, when the Frank, you were introduced and they were capitalists and they were evil and we felt, you know, superior to them because we're from our socialist techno utopia where money's been banished, here, being a Ferengi is a good thing and there's something lyrical and wonderful about the Great River, I think.

474
00:32:39.960 --> 00:32:46.380
How far have we moved on from basically insulting and controlling the Ferengi and TNG?

475
00:32:46.440 --> 00:32:47.700
Yeah, yeah.

476
00:32:47.759 --> 00:32:55.019
No, here it's that thing where we've joined the Federation and the Federation benefit from having a Ferengi member.

477
00:32:55.079 --> 00:32:57.599
You take DSI out of the equation.

478
00:32:57.720 --> 00:33:01.740
I think the Ferengi would be considered just a massive, terrible joke.

479
00:33:01.799 --> 00:33:03.539
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

480
00:33:03.599 --> 00:33:06.119
Oh, well, they were the big band for series one, weren't they?

481
00:33:06.180 --> 00:33:08.279
And then it turned out they were terrifying.

482
00:33:08.940 --> 00:33:15.779
Armond Shimmerman took on 7 years in latex just to make up his performance. exactly.

483
00:33:19.019 --> 00:33:21.359
Oh, this is where he goes.

484
00:33:21.420 --> 00:33:22.380
He's really good.

485
00:33:22.380 --> 00:33:25.079
Look at what your people have done for us, Odo.

486
00:33:26.160 --> 00:33:30.480
It's it's quietly very powerful dialogue.

487
00:33:30.539 --> 00:33:31.680
Yeah.

488
00:33:31.740 --> 00:33:32.460
Yeah.

489
00:33:33.000 --> 00:33:36.119
Yeah, and they have something in common, don't they?

490
00:33:36.180 --> 00:33:39.720
They have a sort of weird relationship with the rest of the founders.

491
00:33:39.779 --> 00:33:41.160
I love these too.

492
00:33:41.220 --> 00:33:44.940
It's very sweet where you ask him, do you think they'll make you do the debriefing?

493
00:33:45.059 --> 00:33:46.079
Because he's scared?

494
00:33:46.140 --> 00:33:47.160
Yes, possibly.

495
00:33:47.220 --> 00:33:50.700
He says, possibly, you know, like he doesn't automatically say no.

496
00:33:51.960 --> 00:33:53.819
Oh, here we go.

497
00:33:53.880 --> 00:33:55.019
Here comes the gem at all.

498
00:33:55.079 --> 00:33:56.759
I do think we need a bit of action at this point, though.

499
00:33:56.819 --> 00:33:57.720
It has all been talked.

500
00:33:58.200 --> 00:33:59.579
Yeah.

501
00:33:59.640 --> 00:34:00.960
And I do quite like as well.

502
00:34:01.019 --> 00:34:04.200
No, no, isn't as sophisticated as the CGI we get now.

503
00:34:04.259 --> 00:34:04.859
Of course it isn't.

504
00:34:04.920 --> 00:34:09.059
It's 20 years ago, but there's sort of the way the ships are moving.

505
00:34:09.119 --> 00:34:10.619
Thank you.

506
00:34:10.679 --> 00:34:11.760
I feel old.

507
00:34:11.820 --> 00:34:13.920
The way the ships are moving.

508
00:34:13.980 --> 00:34:19.320
It's so much more dynamic than it was, you know, sort of 5 or 6 years ago.

509
00:34:19.380 --> 00:34:37.920
So the thing that it made me think of was, was the Pegasus, which I actually think it does pretty well with those scenes inside the asteroid belt, but here we're in like a Kuiper belt, which is where Pluto is.

510
00:34:37.980 --> 00:34:42.840
Pluto's been sort of downgraded to be a sort of big Kuyper belt object.

511
00:34:42.900 --> 00:34:48.780
And so this is what's at the kind of perimeter of the solar system.

512
00:34:48.780 --> 00:35:00.539
And I think it makes for a really interesting visual because it is different from the sort of fast moving rocks that we're used to seeing in an asteroid belt in this show.

513
00:35:00.599 --> 00:35:02.280
I really like this.

514
00:35:02.340 --> 00:35:07.079
The sort of the environmental conditions means it affects the inside of the runabout as well.

515
00:35:07.139 --> 00:35:08.400
So they are in real danger.

516
00:35:08.460 --> 00:35:18.000
Oh, I love this because this was the point where I'm 1st watching, where Wei Yin helps I don't destroy the Jem'adar shoot, I'm going, okay, why would he do that?

517
00:35:18.059 --> 00:35:19.139
Right.

518
00:35:19.139 --> 00:35:20.699
If this is all a trick.

519
00:35:20.760 --> 00:35:21.719
Yeah.

520
00:35:22.559 --> 00:35:27.900
So I, yeah, my, my, my belief in where this episode was going was crumbling.

521
00:35:28.260 --> 00:35:33.239
I think probably once the other way in arrives, do you know what I mean?

522
00:35:33.300 --> 00:35:40.079
Unless he's a pre-recording or something, because you're not going to leave the episode with 2 Wayons running around.

523
00:35:40.139 --> 00:35:41.760
Oh, here's that bit.

524
00:35:41.820 --> 00:35:47.880
Has it ever occurred to you that they've built, you know, the fact that you think they're gods into your genetic character?

525
00:35:47.940 --> 00:35:48.599
Well, of course.

526
00:35:48.719 --> 00:35:50.039
Yes, of course, of course they did that.

527
00:35:53.099 --> 00:35:55.559
How else do you expect gods to behave?

528
00:35:55.619 --> 00:35:56.340
Exactly.

529
00:35:57.480 --> 00:35:59.699
Oh, here's Rome.

530
00:36:00.000 --> 00:36:03.960
I just love these characters, though, but I could just hang with these characters.

531
00:36:04.019 --> 00:36:11.219
So, and now Rom is wearing a Bajoran uniform, and so he's just, when does this happen?

532
00:36:11.280 --> 00:36:12.480
He gets...

533
00:36:12.480 --> 00:36:14.039
Series 5, the assignment.

534
00:36:14.099 --> 00:36:25.440
Okay. is where O'Brien uses him terribly in that when Keiko's taken over by the Parl Rafe, and he uses ROM as a scapegoat, and then at the end, he promotes him for basically doing what he's told.

535
00:36:25.500 --> 00:36:25.739
Yeah.

536
00:36:25.800 --> 00:36:28.079
So he's our new Eddington, do you think?

537
00:36:28.139 --> 00:36:31.440
He's someone that O'Brien bosses around.

538
00:36:34.860 --> 00:36:36.599
Here we go.

539
00:36:36.659 --> 00:36:37.860
It's another one of those cuts.

540
00:36:37.980 --> 00:36:39.119
At least we've not gone.

541
00:36:39.179 --> 00:36:40.679
There'll be nothing else going missing.

542
00:36:40.739 --> 00:36:42.480
Where are my cases?

543
00:36:42.480 --> 00:36:43.500
I've got Ryan.

544
00:36:45.119 --> 00:36:48.659
I mean, it's total sitcom, isn't it?

545
00:36:48.719 --> 00:36:50.159
Yeah, yeah.

546
00:36:50.219 --> 00:36:56.460
And it's partly just to get wharf involved as well, I think, in the episode for contractual reasons he needs something to do.

547
00:36:56.519 --> 00:36:58.440
But that's...

548
00:36:58.440 --> 00:37:00.360
Sorry to interrupt.

549
00:37:00.420 --> 00:37:05.340
That bloody screen on the wall. that shows, you know, with all the different ships.

550
00:37:05.400 --> 00:37:10.260
They get so much out of that because there's clearly cost them a lot of money by the end of the season.

551
00:37:10.380 --> 00:37:12.659
They see that that screen a lot.

552
00:37:15.719 --> 00:37:16.500
Oh, here she comes.

553
00:37:16.559 --> 00:37:17.400
Here she comes.

554
00:37:17.460 --> 00:37:18.900
Salomi gens.

555
00:37:18.960 --> 00:37:19.739
Yeah.

556
00:37:19.739 --> 00:37:26.760
I think by the end of this season. does match Amanda Plummer for being total badass evil founder.

557
00:37:26.880 --> 00:37:28.440
She is pretty great.

558
00:37:28.500 --> 00:37:29.579
She is pretty great.

559
00:37:29.639 --> 00:37:31.139
Oh yeah, look at that.

560
00:37:31.920 --> 00:37:39.719
So we get to see that before we hear where you're in 6's description. of what the founders are like.

561
00:37:39.780 --> 00:37:41.639
We sort of need it, are we?

562
00:37:41.699 --> 00:37:43.860
You need a demonstration and then the context.

563
00:37:43.980 --> 00:37:46.440
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

564
00:37:46.500 --> 00:37:49.500
And she's not even aware of it and she makes it go away.

565
00:37:49.559 --> 00:37:50.699
I think that's really interesting.

566
00:37:50.760 --> 00:37:57.420
The twist I love is how they fed that into previous episodes of DS 9.

567
00:37:57.480 --> 00:38:04.860
So when Odo went to Earth in season 4 and went to Starfleet Medical, that's when they infected him with the virus.

568
00:38:04.920 --> 00:38:07.440
And that's what we discover towards the end.

569
00:38:07.500 --> 00:38:16.800
So Bishir's doing tests on Odo because he wants to, I don't know, create organs that can automatically feel and shape inside people.

570
00:38:16.860 --> 00:38:25.320
So it takes a bit of Odo away, then learns about the virus and then does dig in into Odo's records as to when this changed and it was then.

571
00:38:25.380 --> 00:38:27.179
It's really well done.

572
00:38:27.239 --> 00:38:35.219
And then suddenly then Odo is condemning the Federation saying it's funny, you know, you're accused the founders of doing these terrible things, but when the chips are down, what you've done.

573
00:38:35.280 --> 00:38:36.599
Yeah, it's really good.

574
00:38:36.659 --> 00:38:41.639
And it gives a good reason for Amanda Plummer to be as pissed as she is in Picard as well.

575
00:38:41.699 --> 00:38:43.920
Yeah, in fact, that's quite good, isn't it?

576
00:38:43.980 --> 00:38:46.619
Look, he's eating a pizza with chopsticks.

577
00:38:46.679 --> 00:38:51.300
There we go Well, he does it so playful.

578
00:38:52.559 --> 00:38:55.260
Yeah, all right, I'm done with that food.

579
00:38:55.920 --> 00:38:58.739
It's been sitting there cold for hours.

580
00:38:58.800 --> 00:39:00.300
Yeah, that's right.

581
00:39:01.500 --> 00:39:04.380
I love his snap, his feeling.

582
00:39:05.760 --> 00:39:22.980
Oh, this is great as well, where we learn the backstory of the water as these sort of simple forest dwelling creatures that that would have been very inoffensive, but then along came the founders and they genetically re-engineered them into like war criminals.

583
00:39:23.280 --> 00:39:29.340
But there's also a kind of, I mean, for both the Jemmedar and the Vorta.

584
00:39:29.400 --> 00:39:38.280
There's a kind of violence done to them, like a sort of existential violence, like that making them exist like this is what they've done.

585
00:39:38.340 --> 00:39:47.340
And so you've got the Jemadar who live for 9 years or 7 years and are addicted to this drug and have to obey the founders.

586
00:39:47.400 --> 00:39:50.579
And then you've got the vorta who can't taste anything.

587
00:39:50.639 --> 00:39:54.900
There just seems to be a sort of petty kind of cruelty to that.

588
00:39:55.619 --> 00:39:58.619
Did you did you hear Odo's line then?

589
00:39:58.679 --> 00:39:59.820
He was basically you and me.

590
00:39:59.880 --> 00:40:04.320
Uh, where you goes, well, have you not heard the backstory about the water?

591
00:40:04.380 --> 00:40:06.179
Oh, no, goes.

592
00:40:06.239 --> 00:40:09.059
No, but I imagine you're going to tell me all about it.

593
00:40:11.460 --> 00:40:14.219
Oh, that's you and me on every night.

594
00:40:18.300 --> 00:40:27.480
And I do like the fact as well that the reason why the founders are as paranoid and suspicious as they are is because they were mistreated.

595
00:40:27.539 --> 00:40:30.780
So it's fear, basically.

596
00:40:30.840 --> 00:40:31.500
Yeah.

597
00:40:31.559 --> 00:40:32.940
It's not they're just evil.

598
00:40:33.000 --> 00:40:40.199
Well, I also like this too, because this is something that Wayoon is able to give Odo.

599
00:40:40.260 --> 00:40:55.260
You know, Odo knows so little at this point, and Wayoon is telling, you know, telling the story of one of his ancestors, I guess. you know, and so he's learning more about what the founders are.

600
00:40:55.320 --> 00:40:57.900
Like he's gaining something from this.

601
00:40:59.219 --> 00:41:01.559
It's all just adding, isn't it?

602
00:41:01.619 --> 00:41:05.400
It's adding to the characters, it's adding to the mythos. adding to the backstory.

603
00:41:05.820 --> 00:41:07.559
And what about that?

604
00:41:07.619 --> 00:41:12.719
This is what you can do with running storylines and consequences in a show.

605
00:41:12.780 --> 00:41:14.940
Well, also because they're sort of clever.

606
00:41:15.000 --> 00:41:20.219
Like, I don't think they plan for a 2nd when Odo went to Starfleet headquarters to get checked out.

607
00:41:20.280 --> 00:41:22.559
No, they didn't plan.

608
00:41:22.619 --> 00:41:27.719
You know, they decided, oh, wait, how about, you know, back then, maybe...

609
00:41:27.719 --> 00:41:29.460
You can see Ron Moore, Ira Bear.

610
00:41:29.460 --> 00:41:36.659
Renee, that bit where Bashir's runabout was inexplicably left outside the asteroid.

611
00:41:36.719 --> 00:41:38.519
Let's make that up what point?

612
00:41:38.579 --> 00:41:38.820
Yeah.

613
00:41:38.880 --> 00:41:44.760
But they are clever enough writers to do that, to pick out details. and to do something with them.

614
00:41:45.840 --> 00:41:49.920
So um, Odo infects them.

615
00:41:49.980 --> 00:41:56.820
Yes, so when Odo, um, morphed with the female shapeshifter at the end of series 4.

616
00:41:57.119 --> 00:42:08.760
So in the middle of series 4 is when it happened when he went to the Earth, and at the end of series 4, do you remember when Odo starts melting and they go back to he merges with her there and that's where he passed it on?

617
00:42:08.820 --> 00:42:12.599
And it's a slow release, obviously, because it didn't hit them until series 7.

618
00:42:12.659 --> 00:42:17.519
Yeah, it's a slow release poison, just to sort of wipe them out.

619
00:42:17.579 --> 00:42:17.820
Yeah.

620
00:42:17.880 --> 00:42:19.440
But what about him?

621
00:42:19.500 --> 00:42:20.400
Why doesn't he have it?

622
00:42:20.460 --> 00:42:22.920
Well, he starts to now, doesn't he?

623
00:42:22.980 --> 00:42:23.579
Oh, okay.

624
00:42:23.639 --> 00:42:29.820
So by tacking into the wind, he's, yeah, at the end of that, he's a horrible scabby miss.

625
00:42:29.880 --> 00:42:31.079
Oh, okay, all right.

626
00:42:31.139 --> 00:42:40.380
And that's why we have the episode in the last 10 episodes where Bashir and O'Brien go into Sloan's mind from Section 31 because it was Section 31 that did it.

627
00:42:40.500 --> 00:42:41.099
Oh, okay.

628
00:42:41.159 --> 00:42:47.760
To get the cure, which then Odo has to use for leverage with the female Shapeshifter in the last episode. very neat.

629
00:42:47.820 --> 00:42:48.539
Ah, there we go.

630
00:42:48.599 --> 00:42:51.539
So this is actually bringing the whole thing to an end.

631
00:42:51.599 --> 00:42:53.820
This is making it be a thing.

632
00:42:53.880 --> 00:42:59.340
But doing it in a way that it is sort of exploiting what's been.

633
00:42:59.400 --> 00:43:00.840
I just think that's really clever.

634
00:43:00.900 --> 00:43:07.019
But I think that that makes that's what makes this episode and this plot work.

635
00:43:07.079 --> 00:43:09.780
Isn't it that it introduces such a big thing?

636
00:43:09.840 --> 00:43:15.900
And this is the sort of thing that Star Trek the Next Generation did last week, isn't it, in reunion?

637
00:43:15.960 --> 00:43:17.940
But this is just sort of par for the course.

638
00:43:18.000 --> 00:43:24.119
This is another day at the Office of Deep Space 9 that does this sort of stuff all the time and it really works. well, isn't it?

639
00:43:24.179 --> 00:43:30.059
So we've got Odo possibly he's going to be the last of his kind.

640
00:43:30.960 --> 00:43:34.260
There, that's what I was talking about there.

641
00:43:34.320 --> 00:43:40.260
The way he sort of just started collapsing towards the console, as he's learning that his people are dying.

642
00:43:40.380 --> 00:43:42.300
He can't do it with his face.

643
00:43:42.360 --> 00:43:46.800
He can do it with his eyes and he can do it with his body, but he just looks crumpled and beaten.

644
00:43:46.860 --> 00:43:52.320
It's a good actor that basically you take away their tools and they still convey the emotion.

645
00:43:52.860 --> 00:43:56.340
And he's a sort of slightly dumb idea though, isn't it?

646
00:43:58.199 --> 00:44:01.199
Well, I just love him being a shapeshifter anyway.

647
00:44:01.260 --> 00:44:03.900
And the fact that he's different is why he's had all these great storylines.

648
00:44:03.960 --> 00:44:04.619
Of course.

649
00:44:04.679 --> 00:44:05.579
Yeah, yeah.

650
00:44:05.639 --> 00:44:06.179
Yeah.

651
00:44:06.179 --> 00:44:08.099
Oh, I love these Jemadar ships.

652
00:44:08.159 --> 00:44:09.480
It's like a swarm of insects.

653
00:44:10.139 --> 00:44:12.539
That looks great there with the sun.

654
00:44:12.780 --> 00:44:17.460
Like the way that those those objects are sort of lit from behind.

655
00:44:17.579 --> 00:44:20.639
And you know, even though it's a tiny...

656
00:44:20.760 --> 00:44:24.000
It is a tiny bit sort of cartoony because that's where CGI was at this point.

657
00:44:24.059 --> 00:44:30.780
I think it's quite ambitious for the time. to do a sort of ice, ice skate like this.

658
00:44:31.139 --> 00:44:33.480
Yeah, I think it looks really good.

659
00:44:33.539 --> 00:44:34.619
I think it looks great.

660
00:44:34.679 --> 00:44:39.900
We make fun of the, you know, the CG on Enterprise.

661
00:44:39.960 --> 00:44:42.360
I mean, that looks that looks great as it goes.

662
00:44:42.420 --> 00:44:44.940
I like how 2 of the rocks bounce off the runabout as well.

663
00:44:45.000 --> 00:44:48.480
Well, it's really low gravity, you know, it's pretty great.

664
00:44:48.599 --> 00:44:49.800
So awesome.

665
00:44:49.860 --> 00:44:56.519
I think you can get away with, you know, ice fragments in a way you can't with buildings and people.

666
00:44:56.579 --> 00:45:02.340
So when we watch those enterprise episodes, that it was, you know, the outline of a person walking.

667
00:45:02.340 --> 00:45:04.079
Yeah, those cars are terrible.

668
00:45:04.139 --> 00:45:07.559
You can have an indistinct ice fragment.

669
00:45:07.619 --> 00:45:08.639
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

670
00:45:08.699 --> 00:45:11.159
Only a guard could think of such a thing.

671
00:45:11.219 --> 00:45:13.800
Is it a painting outside the window?

672
00:45:13.860 --> 00:45:15.000
No, it's keyed in.

673
00:45:15.059 --> 00:45:16.260
It's so camp.

674
00:45:16.320 --> 00:45:16.800
I love him.

675
00:45:17.639 --> 00:45:20.219
We become the ice.

676
00:45:22.500 --> 00:45:25.800
Oh, this is my favourite scene in the whole thing.

677
00:45:29.280 --> 00:45:31.380
It's so great.

678
00:45:31.619 --> 00:45:33.539
Scare his reaction.

679
00:45:33.539 --> 00:45:36.119
When she comes in and just goes, get it out of here.

680
00:45:37.559 --> 00:45:41.579
This is Julian's only scene as well, isn't it?

681
00:45:41.639 --> 00:45:43.139
Like, this is his proper saying.

682
00:45:43.199 --> 00:45:44.880
He's such a bitch. listen to him.

683
00:45:44.940 --> 00:45:47.820
Julian, I need help, not sarcism.

684
00:45:51.480 --> 00:45:56.699
He knows he's in he's in dire shit when the captain gets back.

685
00:45:56.699 --> 00:45:57.659
So what's this?

686
00:45:57.719 --> 00:46:00.119
Maybe Noggs decided to make a run for it.

687
00:46:00.179 --> 00:46:01.079
Why is he saying that?

688
00:46:01.320 --> 00:46:03.599
Oh, he's gonna paint it.

689
00:46:03.659 --> 00:46:04.800
That what a dick.

690
00:46:06.599 --> 00:46:11.219
Now everyone's piling in the roof.

691
00:46:11.280 --> 00:46:12.599
They do that look.

692
00:46:12.659 --> 00:46:13.980
Everyone looks around at him.

693
00:46:14.400 --> 00:46:20.219
I know Mars Hawk does exactly what Cisco did earlier, a thinly veiled threat.

694
00:46:20.280 --> 00:46:21.239
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

695
00:46:21.300 --> 00:46:23.219
You better get my wine back all right.

696
00:46:26.280 --> 00:46:27.599
Did you see then?

697
00:46:27.659 --> 00:46:31.320
It's a weird point to make, but as the door opened and Kira walked in.

698
00:46:31.380 --> 00:46:35.760
You could see the whole of ops behind her and there was loads of people working.

699
00:46:35.820 --> 00:46:37.559
Like they didn't have to do that.

700
00:46:37.619 --> 00:46:41.039
No, no, we wouldn't have even thought twice about it.

701
00:46:41.099 --> 00:46:43.559
They are pretty generous with the extras on this show.

702
00:46:43.619 --> 00:46:47.340
Yeah, it feels like a, like a workplace, isn't it?

703
00:46:47.400 --> 00:46:48.179
It does feel real.

704
00:46:48.239 --> 00:46:53.579
Oh, now look at Wayne has a thermal blanket and his faith now, I guess.

705
00:46:56.820 --> 00:46:58.380
Oh, bless him.

706
00:46:59.280 --> 00:47:01.679
So what's he what's he doing?

707
00:47:01.739 --> 00:47:02.760
Oh, he can't breathe.

708
00:47:03.719 --> 00:47:07.619
I was also cold, but just sort of hugging himself.

709
00:47:07.679 --> 00:47:10.559
Would does does he suffer from cold?

710
00:47:10.619 --> 00:47:11.340
I don't even know.

711
00:47:11.400 --> 00:47:12.539
Did we...

712
00:47:12.599 --> 00:47:13.019
Yeah, he does.

713
00:47:13.079 --> 00:47:19.260
Do you remember that episode where, Oh, no, he was a human being at that point when him and... were going up that mountain.

714
00:47:19.380 --> 00:47:20.940
Right, right, right.

715
00:47:21.000 --> 00:47:24.179
So he does remember what it's like to be cold and airless.

716
00:47:24.239 --> 00:47:27.179
D, I love these ice fragments exploding like this.

717
00:47:27.300 --> 00:47:29.159
It looks great, doesn't it?

718
00:47:29.219 --> 00:47:31.739
It's really good We're definitely...

719
00:47:31.739 --> 00:47:32.940
We're coming on, don't we?

720
00:47:33.000 --> 00:47:34.619
We are coming on in the effect stakes.

721
00:47:35.219 --> 00:47:40.860
And then the runabout literally zooms out of one of the fragments.

722
00:47:40.920 --> 00:47:42.719
Oh, it must be coming now.

723
00:47:42.780 --> 00:47:44.099
It's so good.

724
00:47:44.159 --> 00:47:44.579
Here we go.

725
00:47:44.639 --> 00:47:46.739
Here we go.

726
00:47:46.800 --> 00:47:47.760
Oh, awesome.

727
00:47:47.820 --> 00:47:49.440
Straight past the camera.

728
00:47:49.500 --> 00:47:50.579
Straight to the camera.

729
00:47:50.760 --> 00:47:56.760
I think you remember when they did one little ship when the runabout was miniatureized.

730
00:47:56.820 --> 00:47:57.599
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

731
00:47:57.659 --> 00:47:58.860
Honey, I've shrunk the runabout.

732
00:47:58.920 --> 00:48:03.179
Well, they did so many effect shots for the runabout there that they had all of them to use again, you know?

733
00:48:03.599 --> 00:48:05.880
It looks really good.

734
00:48:05.940 --> 00:48:07.320
Come on. is great.

735
00:48:08.039 --> 00:48:11.219
Oh, I did so rarely, though.

736
00:48:11.280 --> 00:48:17.159
This little bit of flame in the runabout and he pulls up the tiniest little fire extinguisher you've ever seen.

737
00:48:18.119 --> 00:48:19.980
Why does he?

738
00:48:20.340 --> 00:48:21.780
what's he doing?

739
00:48:21.840 --> 00:48:24.300
I don't even understand why...

740
00:48:24.360 --> 00:48:27.420
He knows now that they are actually going to blow them up, doesn't he?

741
00:48:27.480 --> 00:48:29.820
Yeah, only one thing he can do.

742
00:48:29.880 --> 00:48:31.800
And that is...

743
00:48:31.860 --> 00:48:34.800
Oh, you think he's, oh, that's why he says I leave only to serve you.

744
00:48:34.860 --> 00:48:37.260
It's not, I'll go and get the fire extinguisher.

745
00:48:37.320 --> 00:48:39.059
I'm going to go and press my thing.

746
00:48:39.119 --> 00:48:39.599
Yeah, totally.

747
00:48:39.659 --> 00:48:40.260
He knows he's going to.

748
00:48:40.320 --> 00:48:40.559
Wow.

749
00:48:40.619 --> 00:48:43.019
So straight away afterwards, doesn't he?

750
00:48:43.079 --> 00:48:44.280
He's like, call off the ships.

751
00:48:44.340 --> 00:48:45.480
Yeah.

752
00:48:45.539 --> 00:48:46.800
Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course.

753
00:48:48.179 --> 00:48:53.579
And, you know, this is a character we've we've only met in this episode, technically.

754
00:48:53.820 --> 00:48:59.340
And so for this to be as touching as it is, I think it's quite quite a feat.

755
00:48:59.460 --> 00:49:01.980
It's really good, isn't it?

756
00:49:02.039 --> 00:49:04.679
I've saved your life and the dominions as well.

757
00:49:04.739 --> 00:49:06.840
He still believes in the Dominion.

758
00:49:06.900 --> 00:49:08.219
Yeah, of course he does.

759
00:49:08.280 --> 00:49:10.679
I obey the founders in all things.

760
00:49:10.739 --> 00:49:12.719
And I think that's the interesting thing too.

761
00:49:12.780 --> 00:49:18.119
Because when it came to it, Like, he felt bad.

762
00:49:18.179 --> 00:49:29.579
Wyun doesn't join in and you see Demar crowing over Wyun where he gets Wyun to just kind of ignore the fact that they're gods and just allow Odo to be killed.

763
00:49:29.639 --> 00:49:34.320
And here, you know, like I believe this.

764
00:49:34.380 --> 00:49:37.920
I sincerely regret any inconvenience we may have caused you.

765
00:49:37.980 --> 00:49:39.900
Like, I actually believe that.

766
00:49:39.960 --> 00:49:42.119
Please have a statement.

767
00:49:42.119 --> 00:49:43.260
You would DS died in suicide.

768
00:49:43.320 --> 00:49:45.960
The last episode we watch had a suicide in it. you remember?

769
00:49:46.019 --> 00:49:47.340
which one was that?

770
00:49:47.400 --> 00:49:49.199
She jumped off the promenade.

771
00:49:49.260 --> 00:49:51.059
Oh, yes, was it that long ago?

772
00:49:51.119 --> 00:49:52.199
Goodness me.

773
00:49:52.380 --> 00:49:54.300
Oh, this.

774
00:49:54.360 --> 00:49:55.619
Yeah, here we go.

775
00:49:55.679 --> 00:49:56.280
Here we go.

776
00:49:56.340 --> 00:49:57.059
Yeah, that.

777
00:49:57.119 --> 00:49:58.320
I thought that that was cruel.

778
00:49:58.440 --> 00:50:04.679
That thing too, where you activate your thing and then discover, actually, no, it's really brutally painful and you've just been told that it's fine.

779
00:50:04.739 --> 00:50:06.780
Tell me I haven't failed.

780
00:50:06.840 --> 00:50:07.679
I've served you well.

781
00:50:07.739 --> 00:50:09.179
Yes.

782
00:50:09.179 --> 00:50:09.960
I was trying to say this.

783
00:50:09.960 --> 00:50:13.380
You've got my gratitude, and then he just gives him it.

784
00:50:13.440 --> 00:50:14.460
He gives him what he wants.

785
00:50:14.519 --> 00:50:15.119
Yes.

786
00:50:15.179 --> 00:50:16.500
Yeah.

787
00:50:16.559 --> 00:50:17.519
Yeah.

788
00:50:17.579 --> 00:50:22.260
And the look on Wayne's face as he lets out that last breath.

789
00:50:22.320 --> 00:50:23.820
Now watch what Odo does here.

790
00:50:23.880 --> 00:50:26.639
Watch what Odo does because all he can't really do anything.

791
00:50:26.699 --> 00:50:31.139
He just kind of looks around because he doesn't quite know what to do.

792
00:50:31.260 --> 00:50:32.159
Like he looks over there.

793
00:50:32.219 --> 00:50:35.400
He doesn't know what to do next. you know what I mean?

794
00:50:35.460 --> 00:50:41.639
Like, it's like that's him, that's him emoting at the death of this guy and really feeling it properly.

795
00:50:41.699 --> 00:50:46.260
I do like how he goes to sort of touch him and then he can't quite do it once he's dead.

796
00:50:46.380 --> 00:50:46.860
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

797
00:50:46.920 --> 00:50:47.280
Yeah.

798
00:50:47.340 --> 00:50:49.559
Oh no, back to the comedy now.

799
00:50:49.619 --> 00:50:51.300
We're back. right.

800
00:50:51.360 --> 00:50:52.920
I love this.

801
00:50:52.980 --> 00:50:54.480
It's so adorable, of course.

802
00:50:54.539 --> 00:50:56.880
And Noggs there.

803
00:50:56.940 --> 00:50:58.440
There was never any problem.

804
00:50:59.820 --> 00:51:01.980
Just wiping it clean.

805
00:51:02.039 --> 00:51:05.639
I came in this morning and found Edson knock.

806
00:51:08.039 --> 00:51:09.900
So funny.

807
00:51:09.960 --> 00:51:12.059
So ridiculous.

808
00:51:14.699 --> 00:51:19.380
Why does he always give truncated estimates of time?

809
00:51:19.440 --> 00:51:21.840
He said, I could do it in 8 hours.

810
00:51:21.900 --> 00:51:22.559
You've got two.

811
00:51:22.619 --> 00:51:23.579
All right, I will.

812
00:51:23.639 --> 00:51:23.880
Yeah.

813
00:51:24.300 --> 00:51:32.159
Well, doesn't doesn't Scotty say in relics that he you have to maintain your reputation as a miracle worker?

814
00:51:32.219 --> 00:51:33.179
That's right, yeah.

815
00:51:33.840 --> 00:51:35.460
Bloody.

816
00:51:35.519 --> 00:51:37.079
Don't ever give them the correct time.

817
00:51:41.099 --> 00:51:45.119
Never lost faith in the great material continuum.

818
00:51:45.179 --> 00:51:46.739
The river will provide.

819
00:51:46.800 --> 00:51:48.480
He says it.

820
00:51:48.539 --> 00:51:50.039
He says that, doesn't he?

821
00:51:50.639 --> 00:51:53.159
The war just got choppy again.

822
00:51:54.239 --> 00:51:57.119
And he gets blood wine out of it.

823
00:51:57.179 --> 00:51:58.980
The river is being generous.

824
00:51:59.039 --> 00:52:04.559
You know, he had no blood wine, now he has blood wine because the blood wine the river got hold of was even better.

825
00:52:04.679 --> 00:52:06.480
I really like.

826
00:52:06.539 --> 00:52:08.880
I think Michael Dawn can turn a comedy line.

827
00:52:08.940 --> 00:52:11.579
I like it here where he jumps in and goes 2359.

828
00:52:11.760 --> 00:52:12.780
A very good year.

829
00:52:14.400 --> 00:52:18.420
It's like, I've only got 3 lines in this episode. make them count.

830
00:52:18.480 --> 00:52:18.780
All right?

831
00:52:18.840 --> 00:52:19.679
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

832
00:52:21.360 --> 00:52:24.840
And now everyone knows about his cousin Gant.

833
00:52:24.900 --> 00:52:27.059
You know, he's sending some things Gant's way.

834
00:52:28.619 --> 00:52:30.780
Look at him going off.

835
00:52:30.840 --> 00:52:33.059
He goes, how much does he want from him?

836
00:52:33.119 --> 00:52:35.039
Yes, that's it.

837
00:52:35.099 --> 00:52:38.400
He's completely on board with a great material continuum.

838
00:52:38.460 --> 00:52:38.880
It's wonderful.

839
00:52:38.940 --> 00:52:50.099
Now I do, I really like this last scene as well, because it is drawing conclusion under the episode, whatever side wins in this war, I'm going to lose.

840
00:52:50.280 --> 00:52:59.159
But I also like too, and I was waiting for it to happen and I'm glad it did, because Kira is religious as well.

841
00:52:59.219 --> 00:53:05.940
And, you know, like it's all a little bit laboured and obvious and stuff, but I'm glad that we went there.

842
00:53:06.900 --> 00:53:11.400
I like, yeah, look, she's going to say it, I can't prove it, but then I like that, yeah.

843
00:53:11.460 --> 00:53:14.340
Yeah, I think all of that's just a little bit obvious.

844
00:53:14.400 --> 00:53:17.400
But, but it's, it's good.

845
00:53:17.460 --> 00:53:21.059
You know, this is the 2 of them explaining the plot to each other at the end of the episode.

846
00:53:22.260 --> 00:53:25.139
But yes, that...

847
00:53:25.139 --> 00:53:35.880
Well, I like that news when it comes to the end of the war, we actually managed to duck this because he manages to save these people and the Federation remains intact.

848
00:53:36.000 --> 00:53:37.019
Yeah.

849
00:53:37.079 --> 00:53:37.619
Yeah.

850
00:53:37.739 --> 00:53:40.320
But he's he's instrumental.

851
00:53:40.380 --> 00:53:42.179
If he wasn't there, that wouldn't have happened.

852
00:53:42.239 --> 00:53:48.300
That last attack on Cardassian would have taken place and the casualties would have been appalling.

853
00:53:48.360 --> 00:53:59.280
Yeah, but I think I think that their decision, you know, to make him central to the resolution of the war is the right decision to make, isn't it?

854
00:53:59.340 --> 00:54:04.320
Because he's the founder, and again, that's never the intention going in, is it?

855
00:54:04.380 --> 00:54:07.860
Like they don't know who he is anymore than we do in series one?

856
00:54:07.920 --> 00:54:10.739
And then they just decide to make him...

857
00:54:10.800 --> 00:54:13.199
Oh my god, wouldn't it be great if...

858
00:54:13.260 --> 00:54:14.039
What episode's that?

859
00:54:14.099 --> 00:54:17.400
That's the beginning of series 3, isn't it?

860
00:54:17.460 --> 00:54:18.659
search where they find them.

861
00:54:18.780 --> 00:54:27.599
Oh, no, but isn't there, isn't there, um, that he goes into the Gamma Quadrant by himself and there's a little girl and a man.

862
00:54:27.960 --> 00:54:29.039
Oh, that series one.

863
00:54:29.099 --> 00:54:31.199
Yeah, yeah. vortex.

864
00:54:31.260 --> 00:54:35.579
Vortex, but that sort of lays the groundwork, doesn't it?

865
00:54:35.639 --> 00:54:37.380
Yes, definitely.

866
00:54:37.440 --> 00:54:38.280
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

867
00:54:38.340 --> 00:54:49.679
And then, yeah, and then two, you get the Ferengi episode where they just mentioned the Dominion, then there's a few mentions of what the Dominion have done in the Gamma Quadrant, and then in the search, they sort of put it all together. that makes it happen.

868
00:54:49.739 --> 00:54:51.840
And that's the season 3 opener, is it?

869
00:54:51.900 --> 00:54:53.400
Yes, yeah.

870
00:54:53.460 --> 00:54:53.940
Yeah.

871
00:54:54.000 --> 00:54:55.139
Very good it is too.

872
00:54:55.199 --> 00:55:02.880
Look how much we talked about previous episodes of DS9 and how many episodes to come in that.

873
00:55:03.480 --> 00:55:07.980
Because this is basically a point between A and C, you know.

874
00:55:08.039 --> 00:55:08.699
Yeah.

875
00:55:08.880 --> 00:55:15.300
A very good episode in its own right, but we don't talk about any other 90s show on this level.

876
00:55:15.360 --> 00:55:17.940
None of them are working on this level.

877
00:55:18.000 --> 00:55:19.679
I really like that.

878
00:55:19.739 --> 00:55:21.840
There's so much substance to this.

879
00:55:21.900 --> 00:55:28.500
You know, like, and sometimes you say, sometimes it's a bit obvious, but there's there's so many sort of plates in the air spinning.

880
00:55:28.559 --> 00:55:31.559
And they just, they keep adding to it as well.

881
00:55:31.679 --> 00:55:35.039
I just think it's at this point in DS9's run.

882
00:55:35.099 --> 00:55:37.380
It's the best of 90s trek.

883
00:55:37.440 --> 00:55:38.940
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

884
00:55:39.000 --> 00:55:39.719
I think so too.

885
00:55:39.780 --> 00:55:43.260
And it is just the fact that they've decided to just go for it.

886
00:55:43.380 --> 00:55:50.880
And, uh, I guess the only thing I'm disappointed by at the end is the Ducart and Kai Winn thing.

887
00:55:50.940 --> 00:55:56.760
Although when we did the changing face of evil, they were pretty entertaining.

888
00:55:56.820 --> 00:55:59.099
So maybe they did make the right decision there.

889
00:55:59.159 --> 00:55:59.940
What is that?

890
00:55:59.940 --> 00:56:01.860
What about Soulbore?

891
00:56:01.920 --> 00:56:03.599
I'll take care of the body.

892
00:56:04.440 --> 00:56:08.039
That was pretty fun, actually, but I think about it.

893
00:56:08.099 --> 00:56:09.539
So maybe it does land.

894
00:56:09.599 --> 00:56:10.800
Maybe they don't drop a plane.

895
00:56:10.860 --> 00:56:12.539
You know, you're right.

896
00:56:12.599 --> 00:56:15.119
Where there's so much nuance elsewhere.

897
00:56:15.179 --> 00:56:16.559
It's so fucking obvious.

898
00:56:16.619 --> 00:56:18.119
I mean, it's come.

899
00:56:18.179 --> 00:56:18.960
So it's very funny.

900
00:56:19.019 --> 00:56:23.099
She has that bit where she dies where she goes, you know, then I'll stop you.

901
00:56:23.159 --> 00:56:29.400
And she picks up the book to throw it in the flames and he just goes, are you still here and kills them?

902
00:56:29.400 --> 00:56:31.619
Brilliant moment.

903
00:56:31.679 --> 00:56:36.239
But it's a very sort of 1970s camp horror.

904
00:56:36.300 --> 00:56:39.599
It's ridiculous compared to everything else that's gone.

905
00:56:39.659 --> 00:56:48.480
I mean, you follow that up with a scene with Garak talking about the losses on Cardassia in the aftermath of the war, and tonally, it's a bit jarring.

906
00:56:48.539 --> 00:57:05.280
I guess, but, you know, like Deep State Stone operates on all sorts of tonal levels and stuff and like we saw there where we were sort of cutting from the terrible death of Wave 6 and then, you know, we cut back to something preposterous happening on in the B plot.

907
00:57:05.400 --> 00:57:07.199
So I think that's probably okay.

908
00:57:07.260 --> 00:57:19.679
But there is real fun to be had, isn't there watching them discover what their show is about and find things to do with what they've already set up and that's the real fun of it, I think.

909
00:57:19.739 --> 00:57:22.260
Two last things I'd like to say.

910
00:57:22.320 --> 00:57:27.300
One is, I think this is a very good episode of Deep Space 9.

911
00:57:27.360 --> 00:57:33.480
I don't think it's one of the all-time highlights and it just goes to show how high the batting average is at this point.

912
00:57:33.539 --> 00:57:44.280
And two, this just goes to show what a loss to the acting industry, Renee Aubichonoir, and Aaron Eisenberg were, because they, I was brilliant.

913
00:57:44.340 --> 00:57:54.539
They were both savvy calls to hire those two. and they both are under layers and layers of layers for 7 years.

914
00:57:56.579 --> 00:58:03.780
I mean, by all accounts, uh, Renae tore off that mask in the last episode and threw it at I remember.

915
00:58:03.840 --> 00:58:04.679
I'm done.

916
00:58:05.699 --> 00:58:07.980
He's got it up on his wall.

917
00:58:08.039 --> 00:58:11.579
He's on his wall. hideous. torn off mask.

918
00:58:11.639 --> 00:58:22.500
But despite enduring that indignity for 7 years or 2 of them, they both took sort of one note characters in the pilot and did incredible things with them.

919
00:58:22.619 --> 00:58:30.360
So yeah, so bravo to Renee and Aaron, and that this episode showcases both of them in a terrific way.

920
00:58:30.420 --> 00:58:50.340
It's a thing that we kind of overlook that it's not just the writers discovering new material or new things in what they've already written and shot, but it's also discovering things that actors are good at as well and giving them the opportunity to do those things.

921
00:58:50.400 --> 00:58:58.019
And that charm that Aaron Eisenberg has means that he works in that B plot, even though Jake's not around.

922
00:58:58.079 --> 00:59:04.559
And in fact, watching him and O'Brien together is really, really enjoyable.

923
00:59:04.559 --> 00:59:12.059
And then, of course, I think we knew going in that Renee was incredible and he absolutely proves it again and again.

924
00:59:12.119 --> 00:59:15.900
Then what they do is they turn it on his head and they surprise you.

925
00:59:15.960 --> 00:59:21.300
So then they make, I don't know, Renee, the umpire, and take me out to the hola street. this mad comedy episode.

926
00:59:21.360 --> 00:59:22.739
And it's hilarious.

927
00:59:22.739 --> 00:59:24.599
And then they give Aaron Eisenberg.

928
00:59:24.659 --> 00:59:27.960
It's only a paper moon where he has to break down at the end of the episode.

929
00:59:28.019 --> 00:59:30.659
And it's one of the most moving scenes you've ever seen.

930
00:59:30.719 --> 00:59:35.099
They were they were incredibly lucky with the actors they they got for DS9.

931
00:59:35.280 --> 00:59:39.179
I think the material is always good, but the acting is always great.

932
00:59:39.239 --> 00:59:40.199
Yeah.

933
00:59:46.380 --> 00:59:59.699
All right, it's time for us to pick what we're going to be watching next time, and it's my turn on the randomiser, and I have chosen the following series.

934
01:00:00.239 --> 01:00:05.159
Star Trek, the original series, Star Trek, the Next Generation.

935
01:00:05.280 --> 01:00:09.780
Star Trek Voyager, and Star Trek Enterprise.

936
01:00:09.840 --> 01:00:12.840
Oh, there's a good chance we'll get a dog there.

937
01:00:12.900 --> 01:00:14.099
A dud for sure.

938
01:00:14.159 --> 01:00:15.059
All right.

939
01:00:15.119 --> 01:00:17.460
So let's press the button and see.

940
01:00:17.519 --> 01:00:21.840
I don't want people to start thinking we really like Star Trek, you know, we've been so positive lately.

941
01:00:21.900 --> 01:00:22.619
Yeah, I know.

942
01:00:22.679 --> 01:00:23.940
We've been ridiculous.

943
01:00:24.000 --> 01:00:28.079
So this is your random Star Trek Voyager episode.

944
01:00:28.139 --> 01:00:30.780
It's an episode that features the best Robert.

945
01:00:30.840 --> 01:00:34.800
It's Tinker Tanner, Dr. Spy.

946
01:00:34.920 --> 01:00:36.420
Is it terrible?

947
01:00:36.480 --> 01:00:37.019
right?

948
01:00:37.619 --> 01:00:39.420
It's wonderful.

949
01:00:39.480 --> 01:00:45.000
You know, that's got the bit at the beginning where he sings, um, Tuvok.

950
01:00:45.059 --> 01:00:48.300
I understand you are a Vulcan man.

951
01:00:48.360 --> 01:00:51.599
You have just gone without 47 years about.

952
01:00:54.719 --> 01:00:56.699
It's far too good.

953
01:00:56.760 --> 01:00:57.480
Press it again.

954
01:00:57.539 --> 01:00:58.320
Such a good.

955
01:00:58.380 --> 01:00:58.739
Okay.

956
01:00:58.800 --> 01:00:59.340
All right.

957
01:00:59.400 --> 01:01:02.039
Trouble is, we have got to get through these doubts, you know.

958
01:01:02.099 --> 01:01:04.019
Yeah, I know. this is another one.

959
01:01:04.079 --> 01:01:07.019
It's your random Star Trek Voyager episode is one.

960
01:01:07.380 --> 01:01:09.840
Season 4 episode 25.

961
01:01:10.500 --> 01:01:15.960
Tom Solensky gave that 5 stars, you know, that was the 1st one he gave 5 stars to.

962
01:01:16.019 --> 01:01:20.099
I watched it reasonably recently.

963
01:01:20.159 --> 01:01:29.460
Certainly after we'd done the killing game, I think, because it's the guy from the killing game, the real Nazi in the killing game, who's not a hirogen.

964
01:01:29.519 --> 01:01:31.079
It's a bit of nothing, isn't it?

965
01:01:31.139 --> 01:01:32.579
It is a bit nothing.

966
01:01:32.639 --> 01:01:33.960
I'll puss it again.

967
01:01:34.019 --> 01:01:34.380
Cool.

968
01:01:34.440 --> 01:01:35.400
We could get worse than that.

969
01:01:36.539 --> 01:01:38.699
I think it has be this one.

970
01:01:38.760 --> 01:01:39.539
Is it terrible?

971
01:01:39.659 --> 01:01:41.579
It's another Voyager.

972
01:01:41.880 --> 01:01:44.039
No-ish.

973
01:01:44.880 --> 01:01:49.739
So it's season one of Star Trek Voyager.

974
01:01:49.800 --> 01:01:51.480
This could go either way.

975
01:01:51.539 --> 01:01:53.460
Episode 14.

976
01:01:53.460 --> 01:01:56.039
Faces.

977
01:01:56.760 --> 01:01:59.099
It's B'lana Split.

978
01:01:59.159 --> 01:02:01.260
It's a banana split.

979
01:02:02.219 --> 01:02:03.900
Do you know what?

980
01:02:03.960 --> 01:02:06.780
I love this when I 1st saw it, because I loved all the horror.

981
01:02:06.840 --> 01:02:08.039
Yeah.

982
01:02:08.099 --> 01:02:09.599
It's a pretty nasty episode.

983
01:02:09.659 --> 01:02:11.280
But...

984
01:02:11.340 --> 01:02:15.179
There's definitely there are some action choices in this episode.

985
01:02:15.239 --> 01:02:17.280
Yeah I think we should do that.

986
01:02:17.340 --> 01:02:18.539
Yeah, why not?

987
01:02:18.599 --> 01:02:19.860
It's an early banana.

988
01:02:19.920 --> 01:02:24.059
It's doing the sort of, you know, yeah, the reluctant Klingon.

989
01:02:24.119 --> 01:02:25.800
We haven't done the Videans, yeah.

990
01:02:25.860 --> 01:02:29.159
And it's one that we always had a nickname for.

991
01:02:29.219 --> 01:02:31.739
So I think that we definitely.

992
01:02:31.800 --> 01:02:37.980
I saw a time where Voyager was sort of half-heartedly attempting to carve out an area of space for a little while.

993
01:02:38.039 --> 01:02:41.400
You know, and this is one of those points, which is all right nice.

994
01:02:41.460 --> 01:02:44.039
We do like early voyager, quite a bit, actually.

995
01:02:44.099 --> 01:02:45.000
I think we do.

996
01:02:45.059 --> 01:02:46.739
Yeah, I think let's do it.

997
01:02:46.800 --> 01:02:51.539
I mean, we've done a couple of ones, you know, but we've done state of flux and this.

998
01:02:51.599 --> 01:02:52.739
We've done all the best ones.

999
01:02:52.800 --> 01:02:55.739
That means we're leaving all the dregs till the end.

1000
01:02:55.800 --> 01:02:57.179
That's all right.

1001
01:02:57.239 --> 01:02:57.840
That's all right.

1002
01:02:57.900 --> 01:02:59.699
All right.

1003
01:02:59.699 --> 01:03:01.199
There's no shortage of them.

1004
01:03:01.260 --> 01:03:03.179
Bring it on, banana split.

1005
01:03:13.019 --> 01:03:18.239
You've been listening to Untitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford and Nathan Bottomley.

1006
01:03:18.300 --> 01:03:24.300
We're online at untitled Star Trek project.com, where you can find subscription links and links to our social media accounts.

1007
01:03:24.360 --> 01:03:29.639
Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceran and the theme was composed by Cameron Lamb.

1008
01:03:29.699 --> 01:03:35.099
This episode was recorded on the 16th of January 2024 and released on the 19th of January.

1009
01:03:35.159 --> 01:03:39.059
We'll see you next time for Star Trek Voyager, Faces.

1010
01:03:54.480 --> 01:03:55.980
Yeah.

1011
01:03:55.980 --> 01:03:56.639
Yeah.

1012
01:03:57.179 --> 01:03:59.880
Are they better than the cast of Voyager?

1013
01:03:59.940 --> 01:04:01.380
Voyager has...

1014
01:04:01.380 --> 01:04:04.139
As a whole.

1015
01:04:04.199 --> 01:04:04.800
Sure.

1016
01:04:04.860 --> 01:04:07.559
Sorry, are we still talking in the episode now?

1017
01:04:07.619 --> 01:04:08.340
No.

1018
01:04:08.400 --> 01:04:09.179
Okay.

1019
01:04:11.099 --> 01:04:15.599
No, because Voyager Voyager definitely has...

1020
01:04:15.659 --> 01:04:16.920
Yes.

1021
01:04:16.980 --> 01:04:23.579
And to prove they're not as good as the DS9, they are sort of levels of competence with the robbers.

1022
01:04:23.639 --> 01:04:24.360
Yeah.

1023
01:04:24.420 --> 01:04:26.460
But I mean, you know, Picado is great.

1024
01:04:26.579 --> 01:04:27.420
Kate's great.

1025
01:04:27.480 --> 01:04:29.460
Ethan Phillips is great.

1026
01:04:29.519 --> 01:04:30.960
Oh, sure.

1027
01:04:30.960 --> 01:04:32.639
Roxanne Dawson is great.

1028
01:04:32.699 --> 01:04:34.739
You know, who else?

1029
01:04:34.800 --> 01:04:38.519
You couldn't survive 7 years with an entirely terrible cast.

1030
01:04:38.579 --> 01:04:40.199
I mean it just wouldn't have gone on, would it?

1031
01:04:40.260 --> 01:04:41.159
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1032
01:04:41.219 --> 01:04:46.860
What happened is we kept seeing glimmers of hope when it was a Jayway episode or a 7 episode?

1033
01:04:46.980 --> 01:04:47.579
that's right.

1034
01:04:47.639 --> 01:04:51.659
A Torres episode, like, okay, well, we can endure Harry King.

1035
01:04:51.659 --> 01:04:52.500
Tom Paris.

1036
01:04:52.500 --> 01:04:56.880
Jakotay or Naomi Wildman episodes to get to the good ones.

1037
01:04:56.940 --> 01:04:58.199
Oh my god.

1038
01:04:58.260 --> 01:04:59.579
Naomi wild one.

1039
01:04:59.639 --> 01:05:02.280
Those children grow up so fast on the starships.

1040
01:05:02.340 --> 01:05:06.059
I think it might be like a space thing. relativity thing.

1041
01:05:06.119 --> 01:05:09.059
It's a good choice, though, isn't it?

1042
01:05:09.119 --> 01:05:11.940
Why would you have kids when they're in danger every week?

1043
01:05:12.059 --> 01:05:15.119
It never makes any sense having kids on the ship.

1044
01:05:15.179 --> 01:05:17.099
No, it was a dumb idea.

1045
01:05:17.159 --> 01:05:19.019
I don't know what the point was.

1046
01:05:19.079 --> 01:05:25.679
I thought they it would open up new plots, you know. why they make a great point of it in deadlock.

1047
01:05:25.739 --> 01:05:28.380
Do you remember when Naomi Wildman is born?

1048
01:05:28.440 --> 01:05:41.760
Obviously, Voyager splits into 2 and in the other timeline, Naomi Wildman exists, but just for about 10 minutes, Samantha Wildman, during a terrible action sequence, loses the baby.

1049
01:05:41.880 --> 01:05:43.019
Oh, okay.

1050
01:05:43.079 --> 01:05:49.980
She dies and I thought, my god, they're really showing how dangerous it is. families living on this ship.

1051
01:05:50.039 --> 01:05:53.760
But then, of course, forgery is duplicated and yeah, yeah.

1052
01:05:53.820 --> 01:05:55.440
There's a live.

1053
01:05:56.039 --> 01:05:58.320
Well she gets taken over to the one that she was killed in.

1054
01:05:58.380 --> 01:05:59.880
So that's how they get around there.

1055
01:05:59.940 --> 01:06:02.099
It's a big reset, but it makes the point.

1056
01:06:02.159 --> 01:06:04.199
Yeah, that's a good one, that one.

1057
01:06:04.320 --> 01:06:19.920
The thing that I like about it is that you think the ship, you think you know which ship is going to survive because it's the one that isn't sort of just completely trashed, you know, and about to be destroyed, and then it gets invaded by the Medians, doesn't it?

1058
01:06:19.980 --> 01:06:20.579
Is that what happens?

1059
01:06:20.699 --> 01:06:30.780
And then, and everyone gets killed and so the crap, mind you, the crappy ship is back to being spick and span the following week, but it wouldn't be Voyager if it wasn't.

1060
01:06:30.840 --> 01:06:32.519
The thing I love about that.

1061
01:06:32.579 --> 01:06:37.980
I think it's the sort of thing you were talking about before, you know, where they can't get the eyelines right with the screens.

1062
01:06:38.039 --> 01:06:42.360
Well, in that one, you've got 2 Kate Mulgrews, and they just can't position them properly.

1063
01:06:42.420 --> 01:06:46.380
So they're apparently having a dialogue, but one of them is always looking sort of off camera.

1064
01:06:46.440 --> 01:06:48.599
It's really bad.

1065
01:06:48.719 --> 01:06:53.099
And Jonathan Frakes nails it on his like 3rd outing or something.

1066
01:06:53.159 --> 01:06:57.300
Like it's, uh, Jonathan Franks nailed it on his 1st outing, the offspring.

1067
01:06:57.360 --> 01:06:58.380
Yeah, so good.

1068
01:06:58.440 --> 01:07:00.420
But I meant the eyeliners thing.

1069
01:07:00.480 --> 01:07:05.579
You know, the moment where where Duras is looking at wharf walking up the bridge.

1070
01:07:05.639 --> 01:07:11.219
Well, you remember I said he's an actor's direct say, you know, as an actor, he has to look at another actor.

1071
01:07:11.280 --> 01:07:13.199
So maybe in the direction he's like, right, okay.

1072
01:07:13.260 --> 01:07:16.079
I'll make it like it's 2 actors looking at each other.

1073
01:07:16.139 --> 01:07:17.820
Oh, it's the thing. yeah that's right.

1074
01:07:17.880 --> 01:07:38.099
It's the thing that I pointed out where the reaction shot of Michael Dawn, we get before we see what he's seeing, and you see him looking at the transporter pad, and then you see him look down at something short on the transporter pad, and then you can't, you know, and it's like Riker letting Dawn tell that before we actually see it, which I thought was pretty good.

1075
01:07:38.159 --> 01:07:45.480
And then that brilliant shot of them going down the corridor from Alexander's point of view, where looming up at walls.

1076
01:07:46.199 --> 01:07:47.519
So much fun.

1077
01:07:47.579 --> 01:07:49.199
That's a great episode too.

1078
01:07:49.559 --> 01:07:52.139
Yeah, we've been too positive.

1079
01:07:52.199 --> 01:07:54.480
We should press the button and get something terrible.

1080
01:07:54.539 --> 01:07:57.119
I've kind of forgot that we have to press the button.

1081
01:07:57.239 --> 01:07:57.780
Where's my?

1082
01:07:57.840 --> 01:07:59.400
Oh, wait, I'll get my iPad.

1083
01:08:05.699 --> 01:08:08.219
That was just my iPad case.

1084
01:08:08.400 --> 01:08:11.699
I realise it is entirely your choice.

1085
01:08:11.760 --> 01:08:17.100
I do wonder if we should stick to the 90s, though, because we've got so many 90s episodes to get through still.

1086
01:08:17.159 --> 01:08:18.239
Oh yeah, I know.

1087
01:08:19.319 --> 01:08:20.760
No.

1088
01:08:20.819 --> 01:08:21.720
Okay.

1089
01:08:22.979 --> 01:08:25.739
Probably done with else in my pocket.

1090
01:08:29.640 --> 01:08:37.800
I rewrote my bio on the, um, untitled Star Trek Project page.

1091
01:08:39.239 --> 01:08:47.100
To mention all of the additional podcasts. that I'm now doing quite a list.

1092
01:08:50.220 --> 01:08:51.659
Okay.

1093
01:08:52.739 --> 01:08:54.840
It's so positive.

1094
01:08:54.899 --> 01:08:56.520
Let's hope it gets something really awful.

1095
01:08:57.300 --> 01:08:59.819
Series one, TNG.

1096
01:09:00.479 --> 01:09:03.840
Series 3, TOS. something like that.

1097
01:09:04.680 --> 01:09:06.119
Okay.

1098
01:09:06.479 --> 01:09:12.300
All right, it's time for us to pick what we're going to be watching next time.