Hey, Joe. Hi.
So, we've come off a run of fairly mediocre episodes culminating
obviously, in threshold, and essentially there was really only one
way for us to go, which was up.
And we've had some success watching the original series.
Wow, a better success.
Quite a bit.
I love some of them.
Yeah, absolutely.
But I somehow feel that we haven't gone up quite as far as I would
have hoped.
I'll put this in perspective for our audience.
I believe this is the 1st episode of Untitled Star Trek project
that you have ever watched and commentated on with alcohol.
Ah, yes, yes.
No, I've been driven to drink by this one.
I'm drinking a small, a small amount of champagne just to take the
edge off the recording here.
That's what I'm here for.
So it's whom gods destroy.
It's from the Freddie Freiburger era of Star Trek.
The most popular season of Star Trek ever.
Yeah, well, you see, I have another podcast at the moment called
Startling Barbara Bain, which is about Space 1999.
It's still the best podcast name I've ever heard.
Yep, no, thanks, James.
It's really good.
And it gets taken off Sylvia Anderson in the 2nd series.
And it goes to Freddie Freiberger and he does basically the same
thing to Space 1999 that he seems to be doing to Star Trek.
And, you know, Plato's stepchildren.
Yeah, I have a feeling that Plato's stepchildren is a lot like
this as well.
Like there's just sort of prolonged scenes of people being
compelled to behave weirdly for no particular reason.
And there's the way to eat it is as well.
You know, the one with the dreadful hippies that come along.
Just long dialogue scenes of people behaving in a particularly
bizarre way and then it ends.
Yeah, like there's a real sort of sense of waiting out the clock
here.
And part of the problem, I think, is too, that it's using
something, which is the idea of criminal insanity as a sort of
centrepiece of it.
But criminal insanity is really literally something made up that
villains can suffer from, you know, so that they have delusions of
grandeur.
And so this doesn't have anything profound to say about mental
illness because it just sort of takes that as a kind of, I don't
know, dressing or something, like it's not about mental illness.
It's about a weird sort of, you know, narrative.
Or he compares himself to Hitler.
Yeah, you know, all Napoleon that we've known.
Yeah, that's that's where we end up.
Yeah, he's on a planet called Elba 2.
So that sort of that thing where there's a mad person who thinks
they're Julius Caesar or a mad person who thinks they're
Napoleon.
Like that's a sort of famous and particularly sort of mid-20th
century TV thing, but it's not real.
So what we have is a bunch of antagonists who just behave oddly
and don't seem to have any sort of clear motives and who change
their sort of mercurial, they change their attitude from moment to
moment.
Their motives change from scene to scene.
I swear to God.
Oh, even within scenes.
And in a way, that's kind of fun.
There is some fun to be had to.
Yeah, I think so.
Yeah.
I mean, that is sort of...
A couple of the reversals, a couple of the twists, yeah, the story
are quite fun.
But it's really long and really kind of thin and when it does
actually talk about mental illness, it's such a sort of, you know
I don't know, it's like the ladybird book, you know, the big book
of mental illness.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. stupid.
Like, it's so stupid.
You're in trouble with men's wellness on TV because TV is
sensational.
So they've got a sensationalizer in some way.
And then TV science fiction is way sensational.
So they're going to way over sensationalising in this.
And so there, that's where we end up.
Mental illness equates wanting to take over the entire galaxy.
Yeah, exactly.
And and there's a problem with that.
That's not a particularly progressive position to take.
And one of the things that we have always done when we're telling
stories is we've found groups of people who we can other, who we
can cast as villains, and you know there have been gay villains
and sometimes we've enjoyed those.
Um, but that's not good enough anymore.
They've been black villains, they've been disabled villains.
They've been disfigured villains, and they've been mentally ill
villains.
And it's something that I think we should be uncomfortable about.
But, you know, it's a feature of 60s TV.
I mean, we have women villains in the final episode of Star Trek
the original series.
Yeah.
So, so, you know, the history of the show is not as progressive as
we like to think it is and that's okay.
Well, the inference seems to be on the whole that mental illness
has been stamped out, isn't it, though, with their science and
their enlightened attitudes, that these problems don't occur.
But like when we return to this world, what we talked of might in
statistical probabilities in DS9, it's a completely different
kettler fish.
They are trying to take over the universe.
They're 4 people.
They've had their sort of DNA mucks around with, and so that's
affected their mental health, and you've got one who's a mute, one
who's very childlike, one who's a bit like Xana Troy, a bit of a
vamp, and one who is, you'd say psychotic, but he's just overly
emotional, and sort of a bit unpredictable with it.
And it's a lot more interesting than this, because it's a lot
subtler than this, you know?
But it's also about something.
Like, they're trying to do something, and it's about Julian's
relationship with them as someone who is also genetically altered
and it's about the Dominion War, and there's something going on
where here, there's just a lot of people standing in the room
talking.
You know straight away from this.
You're on the back foot because they beam down and go, well, we've
got this wonder drug that will cure all mental illness.
So you just give it to them and they'll be all right.
Okay.
Well, that's not going to go right, is it?
Like we've got 50 minutes to fill.
But also, can you imagine we've developed this medicine that cures
all physical illness?
Like the whole thing is so stupid.
Like it's such a, you know, it's written in crayon.
Well, I think it probably was.
I said to you that the idea of the asylum with the patients in
charge, that's not a bad premise.
That could be quite scary.
If we weren't just, you know, having green women dancing around
and a man camping it up in the middle of a set and everyone
dressed up like they're from historical dramas and I don't know
what is going on for half this episode.
If it was if it was a genuinely scary, like American horror story
series 2, I think it was.
That was absolutely chilling.
All set within an asylum and there was a point where the patients
were in charge and terrible things were happening to people to the
point where I was like, do I want to watch this anymore?
This is a bit too nasty for me.
But they were never going to do that here.
So why approach this premise?
if you're just going to sort of camp about with it and and not
just not do anything scary with it.
But I also think there are lapses in tone and things that I just
didn't enjoy hearing or watching.
Some of the things that Garth says, particularly to Martha, like
how poorly she's treated by him and how little we care.
Like, I don't know.
I believe he called her, he called her a stupid cat. cow, I know.
I've got to believe it.
I had to message you in.
I don't believe that.
There's a line in 60s Street.
I feel such an English...
It does feel like a very English thing to say, doesn't it?
Stupid cow, you know?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It doesn't sound right in an American accent.
No, no.
Well, should we watch this thing?
Well, we got 50 long minutes of it to get through.
We do, we do.
We don't want to run.
I mean, I even went onto a memory alpha, and usually in the
original series because they venerate that on memory alpha.
It's packed full of quotes and there was only really data about
this episode rather than any kind of opinion.
I mean, I was desperate to know, what's the a fella's name who
plays the the villain in this.
His name is Steve Innard.
I don't even know how to say that.
Steve Inert, let's say.
There's very little that's inert about him in the episode.
I just wanted a quote from him to see what on earth he was going
for in this episode.
Because at some points, he's bordering on naturalistic.
At other points, he's so far over the top, he's somewhere in a
pantomime.
From one scene to another, I just don't know.
What are you getting out of this character?
Or is it, he's just reading what's on the page?
Whatever they're giving him and he's just playing it as is.
Maybe.
Which case I form the writer and because the writer's got no fruit
line with this episode.
No, that's it.
They've given up.
A bit.
Yeah, I think so.
And the fact that this is the sort of shit that happens more and
more in series 3, I gather, is telling.
And certainly I'm more familiar with series 2 of Space 1999 and I
know that that's miserable.
So, all right, what do you think?
Let's do it, yeah.
Yeah, I'll count us in.
As long as you're prepared for me to start punching the floor like
a completely mad man halfway through this episode, like Kirk
does.
I'm counting on it.
All right, here goes.
Five, four, three, two, one, and we're off.
You know, I've got to say, I did really like the teaser.
So I liked the reversal with the teaser, them coming down offering
the drug.
You know, hello, Captain Kerr.
Welcome to the Mental Asylum, and then her Marcel is already a bit
Gaga saying, you know, don't trust him.
It's not the, you know, the leader of the stain asylum and then
him taking over.
And I thought, okay.
That is really going to be fun.
But unfortunately, I think that's where the plot stops.
Yeah, when the title music starts.
We don't really get any proper question after that.
No.
No, that's part of the problem, isn't it?
But I did think that that was pretty good.
Now, Marta is played by Yvonne Craig, and we'll talk more about
her later, but this guy is called Key Luke, and I'm not sure that
I'm pronouncing that correctly.
He has a long career.
So he's an Asian-American actor.
He was briefly considered for the part of Obi-Wan Kenobi and for
Dr. Sung in brothers, and he is Mr. Wing in Gremlins, who they buy
the Gremlins.
Of course he is.
You know what?
There was, I mean, I figured I was being racist.
I was like, I recognised his face face from somewhere.
No, no, that's and so he's got like contacting gremlins, hasn't
he?
like weird sort of white eyes.
Yeah, that's right.
Yeah.
But I think it's actually quite a good choice and a choice that
another show might not make is just have him be a guy.
Do you know what I mean?
The way that it doesn't matter that Sulu's Japanese and he's on
the bridge of the Enterprise.
This guy's Chinese and he's just a guy who works in this asylum.
And I, I thought that that was pretty good and I, I was a bit
sorry not to see more of him because I think he's really good in
this opening playing the 2 different parts as well.
Did you hear that though?
You could hear Captain Picard saying that.
It's his, uh, was it Garf of Izar?
His exploits were required reading when I was at Starfleet Academy
yeah?
So here's a von Craig, and her makeup is not super successful.
So there are a couple of times where they just shine a green light
on her so that she looks more...
No, on her.
They're just shining a green light on her.
Okay.
Well, we need to talk about the Iran's, because we did talk about
them the other week, didn't we, about how it wasn't until lower
decks that they started to get a bit of a break.
Yeah, so he or she's just someone to have sex with a woman to be
mistreated.
And in a sort of upsetting way, I think. wasn't it?
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, I laughed about the exploding green woman.
I know, it's so great.
What the hell is that Adoran wearing?
I know, it's awesome, isn't it?
He a pimp.
The way he's got, he's got that sort of, it's like a, it's like a
pink dressing gown with a real fluffy collar.
But it looks like he's wearing a feather boa.
Yeah, what do you think of the Tellrite in this one?
Well, just as shit is normal.
No, I think it's different.
It's quite a different makeup than the normal Tellrite that you
get on enterprise or, you know, journey to Babel, which that, I
reckon that was terrifying to children.
I reckon him suspended in that cell, frighten the hell out of a
whole generation of kids.
And this was a point where I was like, oh, God, we're in trouble.
When she, all these weirdos start going around now.
I was like, oh, this is going to be our camp.
It's going to be crap.
It is going to be crap.
What, did you see the special effects shot of the 2 governors?
He went outside to sell an email, yeah.
Yeah, there's 2 good ones.
They do the same thing with Kirk later as well, which looks very
good.
But then I'm never sure of these episodes now, whether it's been
in harm.
No, no, no.
They could do that in the 60s.
They do it in bewitched really successfully.
And once again, tell you that I do always get past the original
Star Trek theme music.
I just don't like it.
That's immoral.
Oddly, during these opening credits, Spock is shot, and we don't
see it in the teaser, and we go back to the action and he's being
dragged out of the room after being shot.
Ah.
Which seems odd.
I don't know why they're quite doing that, but there we go.
There's not enough stock in this, is there?
wanting him to come back every time they took him away.
He is pretty great whenever he's in it, though.
He is one of the highlights of the episode.
It enlivens every time, even if it's just touching a false field
or raising an eyebrow.
He's pretty great.
Oh, God.
Hey, look, look, they could just drag him off.
He's been shot while we were watching those pretty pictures.
I don't know what happened was going on, you know, while we were
watching the movie.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Now, you know about the rest.
I like to buy Herb Wallenstein.
You got a lot to ask for, Herb.
Okay.
Rain your actors in.
So, so Yvonne Craig is Batgirl in Batman.
Ishape, my God, you've done some research on this.
Yeah, well, no, kind of, I kind of knew her name, and I think
probably Richard, my friend who's a big fan of vintage TV, might
have mentioned her as well.
And I had seen a Batman with her in it.
Um, And she is a dancer, which is one of the reasons why she's
cast, but I think this is a pretty thankless part and kind of an
embarrassing part.
Yeah, I think that's terrifying, don't you?
If you're a little kid watching that and the guy's peeing.
Well, the guy suspended.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. great. don't know how.
But we need a bit more of that in this.
Yeah, you know?
Well, I don't know.
Setting up a room with a throne and yeah, the most scary part of
the whole episode is when she blows up out on the planet.
Yeah.
Yeah, but again, I'm trying to work out.
We'll get there, but who that is...
No, it's worth remembering.
When we rolled this episode on the randomiser.
That was the one thing you remember about this.
Yeah.
So something lodged in your brain there.
Yeah, exploiting green woman.
Unforgettable.
Now, you and I have discussed off mic about William Shatner.
Oh, I think he's giving us a little bit of welly.
Not enough, but you think he's zoned out now, don't you?
Well, I, no, no, no, there are bits here that I think he's
genuinely funny and he plays really well.
And I think particularly those things around Marta because, um, you
know, he, you know, one of the things that shoots me about this. is
of course, the man when he's mad and a megalomaniac.
He wants power, but the woman is obviously just someone who wants
a lot of sex.
She wants Captain Kirk.
Yeah, yeah.
Shat, I read that and was like, yeah, this is a good script.
And then... like Shatner going off here with her and being like
doing the sort of genial thing that Garth has been doing, I think
is actually pretty good.
But in a minute it's going to go to hell, I think. ask why in this
episode and this episode only Captain Kirk has decided to have, you
know, a secret code word before he's beamed up back onto the
ship.
Because it's never happened before and it never happens again.
But it just so happens to be vital to this plot.
Yeah, it's stupid, isn't it?
And I think probably a line of dialogue would have been okay, but
I think a line of dialogue before we hear it would have ruined
it.
Like, I do actually think that that's quite interesting.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, it's not a bad thing, and it gives Garth something that he
needs to get in order to get control of the ship.
So I don't think that's bad, but I don't know why no one upstairs
on the ship has anything explained to them about why they've
chosen to do that this time.
Like, do they fear something?
Is there a special?
You could, like you say, you've secure it in a long place.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
These people are, you know, known criminals in case anything goes
wrong.
I want you to know this is me in case they use a voice coder or
something like that, you know, to pick up.
But, but, it would be better to learn that after we see this after
we see Queen Queen to Queen's Civil 3 for the 1st time.
Um, you know, that this, we should be finding out at the same time
as Garf does that they've done this, I think.
It is a peculiar thing in season 3 of the original series that
they do ask William Shatner to go deliver the most operatic
insanity that you've ever seen.
I mean, he's doing it right now.
He's tearing up the set.
He's throwing the extras about, and in a minute he gets on his
knees and starts pounding the floor like a toddler.
Steve doesn't do any of that.
Now watch this.
Watch this, all right. goes down to the floor, right?
and start smashing the floor.
Then he changes and then the ring falls off his finger and rolls
across the floor, right?
So the ring that we later see just comes off and he just leaves
it.
Then he gets up, he makes an attempt to put the jacket back on, but
he fails.
What?
He's trying to find the sleeve, but he can't manage it.
And so for half of the time, for the rest of the episode, he just
doesn't have his arm in that sleeve.
Oh, I didn't even notice that.
Yeah, yeah.
I actually thought for a 2nd maybe I'm wrong.
Maybe it doesn't have a sleeve, but it does.
You see it flopping around the back of a thing.
Wow.
It's a continuity announcer was like, no, it's happening.
It's like, oh, we couldn't have done it while we're here.
Does he wear the ring again?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You see the ring in the shot.
Yeah, yeah, he picks it up.
So, so this stuff on board the Enterprise is astoundingly boring
and pointless.
Which knows the last time we did a TOS.
Do you remember when we kept going back to the ship, the one where
spot was down on the planet?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And like they just don't know what to do with it.
Like in Star Trek, the Next Generation, there would be... do you
remember the arsenal of freedom?
Like, it's a terrible...
Unfortunately, I do, of series I do, with John Lovett's in it.
But the things that are attacking them down on the planet are also
attacking the ship up top.
So there's 2 things to do.
But here they don't have that.
I can't get over this Telleride because he just looks like a pig
nosed guy and not like a Telleride.
And he just reminds me of Pog from Prodigy.
He looks much more like Pog than any other teller I'd ever has.
I feel like in the 90s shows, the ensemble, the chemistry between
the ensemble is so much stronger.
It's so much more sort of flat structure in terms of a show that
when you do go back to the ship for little subplots like this, you
know, always searching for them or whatever, they can always dip
in with like cute moments.
But I feel like so much of TOS is surrounded by Kirk McCoy and
Spock. that when they're not around, the rest of the characters
don't really know how to react without them.
So they just they just wind up sort of functionally doing their
jobs.
Yeah, that's it.
All they're doing is providing information to us.
There's no no one wants to do anything different from anyone
else.
There's no conflict.
Do you remember, um, The Corbamite maneuver where that lieutenant
loses his shit.
Is it the lieutenant?
Yeah, you know, and this, it's about something, like something
happens on the ship, but they can't think of a 2nd thing to
happen.
And this is a pretty thin thing that they've thought of to happen
down here on the planet.
You can't ask us to think of 2 plots.
Good grief. can barely think of half a plot for this one.
But very quickly, going back to William Shatner losing his shit.
There was that very bizarre sequence in the one with the, you know
the kids. what's that called with the evil kids coming onto the
ship.
Do you remember?
It's like the 2nd or 3rd episode of the season and they're sort of
altering people's minds.
They look into the camera and all to be.
Okay.
Kurt goes into the, um, The lift shaft and he's like, my God, I'm
so scared and he starts like pounding the...
And then in the last episode...
Like, what's this?
What are we watching?
What do we...
It's doing weird...
It's the Andorian doing a wheelbarrow with the fucking Tellerite.
It's the least entertaining thing I can imagine.
They're all roaring as if it's really fun. spread looks quite
nice.
Yeah, the spread does look nice You've got like nice looking cakes
there, covered in fruits.
And then at the end of the season, do you remember when the woman
captain goes inside Kirk's head and then he starts going bizarre
and mad in that.
It's almost like that's it.
After full setting this year, we can't think of anything else to
do.
Let shit, man.
Shit now.
Oh, no.
Let's Shatner hit the fan.
It's very odd. very bad But everyone else on the planet is really
weird looking.
Yeah, yeah, you stupid cow.
He says you're repulsive.
I know.
That stuff is not nice.
Like, I just don't enjoy that.
I don't think it's great.
I love the one character thing that I love about her is that she
wrote that sonnet by Shakespeare and she just says, yes, I know he
wrote it years ago.
I wrote it this morning.
And then she quotes another thing, like Longfellow or something
and she claims to have written that.
I love that.
That's my favourite character.
There was something with more depth going on there. and then I
realised, no, that's just her being weird.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And so now we've got the green light on her again while she
dances.
This goes on forever.
Yeah, yeah.
I started looking, you know, like, you can tell I'm gay because
I'm not enchanted by a green naked woman on the screen doing, you
know, gyrating.
I'm looking at my watch gown.
She hasn't started dancing yet.
She's doing Shakespeare first, which is pretty great.
You think this is sort of sexy, though, when she starts dancing.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
No.
And I think that that's the same reason that we had the belly
dancer in Wolf in the Fold.
Like, I think we have sexy lady dancing because it's reasonably
cheap to do.
It's like the fist fights.
It's very unfortunate that in long shot, the light is not on her.
So she just looks a completely different colour when we're in long
shot.
Yeah, now it's on her again.
Yeah, I may kill you with my bare hands.
Like, that's not fun.
What's that?
And then the way he changes here, actually.
Actually, she's a superb dancer.
No, where'd you die?
like, I'll pay that.
Do you know what I mean?
That sort of mercurial thing where he goes from threatening to
kill her to saying how lovely she is and will you dance for our
guess?
These ugly people extras.
Oh, if that was not a request.
So she is just his plaything, isn't it?
Yeah.
And but Shatner reacting to her dancing is actually pretty great.
We'll get there, but yeah, what the fuck is this?
It just goes on forever.
So you know that...
Part of the audience is supposed to be appealing to me.
No.
Yes, yeah, this marvellous, isn't she, Captain?
He goes, yeah, yeah, incredible.
You know, like that's pretty good.
And this, what is this?
So Spock goes, I found it rather nostalgic because children in
Vulcan nursery schools do this sexy dance, apparently.
They don't do it as well.
They're not as coordinated.
Yeah, but Vulcan children do sexy dancing in nursery school.
It's really...
Have we seen that in Strange New Worlds?
No, I'm sure there must have been a scene with Michael in one of
the education pods doing a sexy dance. in discovery.
I say something very dodgy about Vulcan society.
There are scrunchy dressed children doing sexy dollses.
Yeah.
Like it's kind of strange.
It's a funny thing for Spock to say, but it's not a line that's
been very well thought through, I think, is the problem.
You know, this wasn't shown on the BBC till the 1990s?
Why?
I had originally heard it was because of the sexy dads, but that
seems unlikely, but I think it is, um, just how unpleasant it is
was the problem.
And it wouldn't have been banned in like...
Is it unpleasant?
I know she's treated terribly, but women are generally treated
terribly in a...
In Star Trek.
Yeah, that's true.
But, you know, there's the stabby thing and then there's blowing
her up and there's all the verbal threats and stuff like that and
there's the toy.
So is this edgy?
I've missed the point.
Is this Andrew?
don't think it's edgy.
I think it was an odd decision because, you know, you've got to
think that Americans have got to be more puritanic a lot about
what goes on TV than the Brits are, but here we are.
Why are all of these characters dressed up like they've come from
historical reenactments?
So, do you know where you've seen um, where you've seen Garth's
outfit before?
Oh, have we seen it already doing untitled Star Trek project?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So it was in the last episode we did in Galileo 7, Commissioner
Ferris, is wearing the same outfit.
Oh, wow.
Yeah.
Not the, not the, you know, the fur coat, obviously, but what's
underneath it is just Commissioner Ferris's outfit.
And I think it is used in another episode for someone else as
well.
Now you've pointed it out.
All I can see is, oh, I'm not inside his sleep.
All I can see is that.
Oh, bless him.
And so we nearly have a political discussion happening here
right?
Nearly.
And there is that moment where, and I've seen it.
Do you remember there used to be like a long, I think the long
video trailer when Star Trek The Next Generation was being
released and they showed stuff from all of the films and from this
show and from Star Trek The Next Generation?
And the captain says, it's a dream that sent us among the stars
blah, blah, blah, and made me and Spock Brothers, and like I was
very familiar with that because it was on that trailer on the
videos back in the 90s or whatever.
But like there's that.
Do you know what I mean?
And he seems to be fascist and he calls, like he just used the
phrase decadent weakness to describe the federation's morality.
I don't know.
Well, he says what, he allowed all this planet.
They they cured, you know, they made him better.
He offered them the galaxy.
They rejected him.
So that signed all their death swat.
I mean what?
Yeah, no, so he went mad.
And later on we'll discover he's not. for that.
No, that was as a result of him going mad.
Right.
Yeah, yeah.
I'm not sure it justifies anything.
No, no.
No, because it's just like, what does mad mean?
A line I love is Spock going, yeah, how could you, a Starfleet
captain?
Thinking that your crew would do that.
See, there's the ring.
There's the ring that fell off his that fell off his...
There really is the inference, isn't it?
That the start, if you are in command of a starship, then you are
the best of the best, you know, beyond corruption.
Well, by the time we get to the 90s, it's almost a given that if
you're in command of a starship and you're not Captain Picard.
You're not the police, psycho.
Well, yeah, yeah.
Or if you're an admiral, you know.
A dream that became reality and spread among the stars.
You know, a dream that made me and Spock Brothers.
And I love Spock's response to this because it's kind of
unexpected because he's being asked a question about a metaphor
and it's not directly true.
And he says, no, I agree.
It was about something though, wasn't it?
This is about their relationship. this is sort of the one point in
the episode that means something.
Yeah, yeah.
I like it, yeah, it goes here.
Captain Kirk does, you know, talk very romantically, but yes, in
essence, I agree.
I agree, I like it.
I think that's really good.
Yeah, so there are sort of little crumbs, aren't there?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And mostly they're Shatner and Nemoy's performance, I think, but
the rest of it is just sort of super boring, I think.
Like this, please forgive me where exactly is your fleet?
You know, like he just sort of asks the logical question.
And so he assumes then, well, he's going to get control of the
enterprise and then all the other ships are going to follow him.
Yes, because he's mad.
And that's part of the problem.
Do you know what I mean?
Like he just does random ass things because he's mad and because
nothing that he does makes any sense.
Nothing here really matters, you know?
and it's the show isn't focussed enough on them trying to escape.
Do you know what I mean?
It's mostly focussed on these people doing things to them until
they finally escape.
I know we're usually very critical about backstories as to why
things have happened.
But, you know, like just something as to why he's gone mad, you
know, and some motive as to why he wants to take over.
Otherwise, it is just random stuff.
Yeah, but that's it, but that's that's what they think mental
illness is, what criminal insanity is, is this?
You're mercurial, you behave irrationally.
But wasn't Khan supposed to be mad in the earliest seasons?
But he wants something, doesn't he?
Like he's a person with a background who wants something and he's
you know, all of those Star Trek villains.
Like this is kind of like a precursor to the Star Trek villains
that we get in the movies, isn't it?
Do you know what I mean?
Like they're mad and they want to kill Kirk or whatever.
They just usually bring in a really good character actor that
delivers a, you know, a grounded performance.
But they're not doing weird ass shit because they're mad.
Do you know what I mean?
Like they're doing something.
They have a plan, they're behaving rationally, and there's some
conflict, like some conflict of values happening.
I mean, we sort of almost get...
Within that, even with the sort of the randomness of how they're
behaving, things like, it could have been scary, where you just
can't predict how they're going to behave.
But it just, see, I always feel so laboured.
Yeah, yeah.
A bit obvious in retrospect.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, like I said, there's some, you know, like you said, I
guess there are some nice reversals and the odd thing happens
that's reasonably interesting.
I thought the best part of the episode was when Spock comes in to
save Kirk when she's on the bed and she pulls out the knife.
And then they go to the transporter room and then...
Neither one of them, I'm sure.
Yeah, we're not sure who out of the 2 of them.
I was absolutely certain it was Kirk and that whole scene was
playing out in the room to convince Spock coming into the room.
So I was like, okay.
Yeah, they could never have done that because they would never
have a scene without one of the regulars in it.
They would just never have a scene.
Do you know what I mean?
Like they...
But for a 2nd I was like, oh, what's going on?
You know, just for a second.
So this prop here appeared in a season one episode called Dagger
of the Mind, which was also set in a prison, and it's where
someone had this sort of scary treatment that you would be
strapped to and it would cause you pain, but it wouldn't have any
sort of physical effect.
And I think in memory, Alpha said that Nemoy complained that this
was too much like that episode.
Oh, I hope it was more exciting than that.
Well, I don't know.
In fact, I got these 2 mixed up, so I don't know that I've seen
Dagger of the Mind.
I knew I'd seen this.
I thought this was probably Dagger of the Mind.
But obviously it isn't.
Um, but, um, you know, I gather, I'm off the mind is better.
It cannot be much worse.
No, I, I, I would go as far as to say that the costume department
are doing this episode of Dis Service.
There's just those ridiculous costumes.
You cannot take any of these characters seriously because of how
they're dressed.
No, but I don't think you're supposed to.
Like, I think it's supposed to be over the top.
This is supposed to be camp, and this is a B movie, I think, is
the is the thing. the tone we're going for.
I mean, looking, they've got odd looking extras in.
Do you know what I mean?
Like all of the mute extras look odd.
So is Freiburger so sort of unimpressed with his audience that
he's like, well, just throw in a sexy dance?
Yeah, put in some camp costumes.
They'll be amused for 50 minutes.
He's really basic.
That's so sad, given where we've been, given some of the things
we've seen in those earlier seasons.
Trump with triples and um...
No, what's the one with the Doomsday machine, you know?
Jeez, that was good telly.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
What the hell is this?
This is just ridiculous.
But and the weird thing is, it's almost like they get it right by
mistake in season 3 because you occasionally get the Enterprise
incident or the Western.
Yeah, or the one where Spock has a romance just before the series
ends.
Some of the episodes are great, but it's almost inadvertently
rather than by design.
Yeah, I mean, this, who wants to watch this?
What are we getting from this?
I don't quite understand.
So this device causes pain.
There's no physical effects.
Yeah.
Okay.
I'm not sure that actually works.
Well, no, it's imaginable.
I mean, you can imagine it.
It depends on how you define pain, I guess, but, you know, yeah
you can imagine something of Shatner.
Oh, look at him.
He's like doing in pain acting.
But why is that fun?
And it seems to be prolonged.
So, Marta, I just don't get no, she's mad.
She's mad.
And there are scenes, like there is a scene that attempts to
humanise her.
And part of it's, you know, like she's sexually voracious and
stuff, um, and that sort of upsetting, but occasionally she seems
intelligent and she's thinking and stuff and then she whips out
the knife, you know, and tries to stab him.
Is she is she loyal to Garth or does she want to go?
No, she says she is.
So that's why she tries to kill him with a knife.
No, she does that because she's mad.
Just keep saying that to me, all right?
Every time I try and figure out a motivation.
No, that's it.
That's the problem.
You know, none of these are people.
And so, and so, like, I think that her being killed is really bad
and I think it's unpleasant to watch, and I think it's they're
telling on themselves by thinking that people are going to enjoy
that.
Do you know what I mean?
Like on some level, and because it's a scantily clad woman with no
agency who's being manhandled and we're seeing her, you know, hold
out her arms, pleading and suffering and stuff.
Like that's yucky and unpleasant.
And like, the death itself is kind of comic.
Oh, that's even worse.
But she's so not a character that you have any empathy with
because she doesn't do anything that that undermines it.
And that's fortunate because it's horrible, you know?
It's worth mentioning it is an actress playing this this thankless
bloody role, you know?
It's miserable, doesn't it?
Is this the best they could hope for in the 60s?
Well, I don't know.
I don't think so.
You remember that fabulous woman in Assignment Earth in the
office?
No, we loved her.
She had great fun.
Yeah.
She did wine a bit, but she had a lot. she was awesome.
But she was, you know, here we go.
I suppose we could call this the 2nd interracial kiss on Star 2nd
week.
Well, this is the 1st one because I think Plato's stepchildren
comes next, doesn't it?
I'm not sure I could be wrong.
Oh, does it?
Yeah, yeah.
So it could be the 1st one.
It's a green one.
I mean, I suppose if Alien is... a different race.
It's a different colour, isn't it?
race, and they do use different skin colours to differentiate
races. you know, they're...
Maybe this was sort of the testing ground.
Well, I think they're thinking, no, but I think they do think of
you know, when they think about different races, when that means
you know, people of different ethnic backgrounds or whatever, on
earth, and they're conceptualising aliens the same way, like
that's a thing.
You know, can I very, very quickly talk about Roddenberry?
Yeah.
Because he's obviously left, well, they've sort of kicked him off
the series at this point, haven't they?
And that's why Freiburger's come in and he's in overall creative
control.
And one of the things I gleaned from the centre seat was that
anything after TOS, Roddenbury came in with tons of ideas, most of
them were terrible and they weren't able to use them in the 80s
and the 90s and they weren't able to use them in the movies and
they effectively just gave him a little office at Paramount and
say, right, well, you look over the script and give us your notes
but effectively they weren't going to listen to him.
Yeah.
So I'm wondering if TOS is the one point where when Roddenbury was
in creative control and it was all working because the 1st 2
series where he was in charge effectively in charge.
I know the other gene, Gene Coon did a lot of work.
Yeah, yeah.
It really worked like Gangbusters.
But there it has the problem.
It has a very roddenberry problem with women, which seems to be
persisting here, don't you think?
And certainly persists in the 1st couple of series of the next
generation.
Yeah, yeah.
Just that weird, weird, ookie sex thing that he has going.
You know, we talk about late 90s trek being really sexist or
really kind of sophomoric and its handling of sex.
Whereas Rod and Bree's instinct is to be incredibly fucking creepy
when it comes to sex. think I'd rather have sex less than this.
No.
I mean, it's the 2 extremes, isn't it?
Yeah.
All we want is somewhere in the middle, where it's normalised and
just, you know, fun to watch.
But look at this.
This is just an enterprise corridor, said redressed, isn't it?
And with different colour gels.
I actually figured a lot of this was enterprise, actually
dressed.
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Different coloured gels.
That's the only way we differentiate, yeah.
With the screen.
Oh, dude.
Is this the big breakout they're trying to get away?
Yeah, and I have to say that this did fool me.
I didn't realise that Spock was, oh, in fact, no, that's not
true.
And I tell you how I knew, I knew that it was just about fucking
time something happened in the episode.
And I think, I think I, um, I genuinely wasn't sure which one of
them it was.
Yeah, no, but at this point, at this point, it's only now when he
refuses to give the code...
And straight away, you will, you'll immediately think it's Kirk
don't you?
Because he's not giving the code.
But because we were with Kirk all the way through that scene and
Spock came to rescue him, it had to be Spock.
So that's why I was like, my God, are they being that clever that
they were playing out that scene?
I was like, no, they weren't.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But you remember I said, you know, there was no like nothing was
happening.
There was just a whole bunch of things, but no actual incidents
happening.
And so at this point, I thought, Because I think I sent I sent
them something to you using terms from Muse.
Remember the old man in Mews where they list or even the pretty
young person?
No, no, where he talks about the mistaken identity, the sudden
reversal, all of that sort of thing.
Where are those?
Kellen would have put a mistaken identity in here.
And then I just thought, ah, yes, this is about the time something
should happen.
It's definitely it.
Helen wouldn't have gone anywhere near this.
No, no, no.
He was... he was... those sort of phase out and then golf's
there.
They are well done, I think.
Yeah, yeah. given that they can't do anything else, they may as
well do that, I think.
It's just quick.
I like how quick he is. blinking, you're missing, you know?
He moves a foot to the left or something each time, but that's
fine.
Shatner's like, for God's sakes, I almost got away. away from this
dreary episode.
How much longer have I got to wait?
Oh, 18 minutes, okay.
Oh my god, is there still 18 minutes to go?
Yeah, we haven't had the death yet, no, Malta's horrible day.
Well, that's quite near the end, I think.
Is that coming now?
The highlight of the episode for all the wrong reasons.
Yeah, yeah.
It's miserable.
Did we miss the bit because there was a bit that I really liked.
I think it was actually earlier on where it was just the one
moment where I thought things were working and um, it's Spock just
very gently calls him Captain Garth, and he replies, Lord Garth
and Spot just goes, like raises an eyebrow and goes, as you wish.
And it's so...
No, you've missed up there.
He was properly good.
Like, again, the only entertainment, I think, to be had a little
Shatner moments and little Nemoy moments.
I think Nemoy is mildly contemptuous of all of this.
And we know this because I've read many an interview where he's
mildly contemptuous, well, not mildly, about all of everything.
Yeah, they were basically a bit embarrassed by what they were
doing in this last season.
For the most part.
Yeah, because there's nothing to this one.
What's this embarrass?
So they do like a little set piece, and I'll say little with a
small L. And then you just have Garth camping it up again, don't
you?
Doing his whole Lord, Gar, I'll take over the galaxy.
But I mean, what's happening here?
Okay, so what's happening in this scene?
Shadner is talking to Garth about his role as a Starfleet.
There are things that happen to him.
No, he's talking about his role as a Starfleet commander, and he's
trying to convince him not to be criminally insane.
Isn't he?
Because that's something you can do, you know?
Yeah, you can do that.
That makes sense.
And so none of this scene goes anywhere or means anything because
it's ridiculous.
He did remind me of the master from Doctor Who a couple of times
in this.
He just said there, I will be master of the universe. which I
think Roger Delgado's master said in the 70s a couple of times.
Oh, I will say kneel before me while you're down there.
Alexander, Caesar, Napoleon, Lee Kwan, Crotus.
So, Lee Kwan isn't Lee Kwan Yu from Singapore. who is around at
about this time.
So he and he was a bit of a, you know, authoritarian.
But it's not him.
Memory alpha makes it very clear that it's Lee Kwan, the
completely made up Chinese dictator.
And look, we are going.
We're going to a fucking commercial break on him being shot with a
stun gun.
We know he's not dead.
There's no peril, but because nothing actually fucking happens in
this episode.
That's what we're reduced to.
He fell to the floor there, like a wilting flower.
I was like, he really has given up at this.
No, it's one of those laser beams that makes you lower yourself
gently to the ground.
It's a thing.
Yeah.
I've always wanted to be shot by one of those. a science thing.
Oh, there's whole sequence now.
Oh, boring.
It's basically the very few bits of furniture we've got who's
assembled into a throne.
So it's a chair on a table.
Actually, and he's given a crown of forms to have on his head.
It's, it's, um, tinfoil.
I actually like the sixtishness of the chair.
Look at the chair.
It's pretty great.
And Dorian costume.
I just can't go.
He's got checked out, what are they thinking?
Awesome.
How did that man?
I mean, he must have done a few days work wearing that.
How did he not say, can I just take this off please?
But I like the bit where Garth suggests...
No, go on.
The what?
I'll just see RuPaul wear something like that.
It's so bad.
Gar suggests that that Kirk could be a human sacrifice and he goes
no, I wouldn't enjoy that at all.
Do you know what's the trouble is?
You and me, yeah, we love camp.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So this should be chiming with us.
No, but it's too boring.
Like nothing's kind of happening.
And I love a good megalomania villain.
Like, you know, like I said before, very earnestly that, you know
villains shouldn't, you know, we should be demonising the mentally
ill.
But, you know, like a camp grand moustache twelling villain is
great, a really good thing.
But this guy, like he's like, I don't know, what's happening?
He's mad and I don't care.
Maybe if it, if it played by a woman, it would have been more fun
golf.
Yeah, probably.
Probably.
Okay, so this is the thing because he's not just someone who's
mad.
He's someone who's mad who can change his form to look like anyone
which he...
From the people of Antos 4 or whatever.
The ones who signed their own death warrants.
Those guys.
And he's also been able to invent the most powerful explosion in
the galaxy. explosive, the most powerful explosive in history.
And there's just also a genius.
Yep.
There's a little grain of it in that necklace that he just gave
martyr.
But what's weird is, right?
I know he's sort of mistreated Martyr throughout this, but right
up until the point of her death.
There's no indication that he wants to kill her or get rid of
her.
I'll kill you with my bare hands and stuff.
He said all sorts of horrible things to her.
No, no, but I didn't, I don't know.
I just didn't see it coming.
I don't think that was going to happen.
No.
Yeah.
Like, you know, usually a lot of this stuff is signposted in Star
Trek.
Yeah, especially the original series.
Oh, that bloody costume.
Can you get me one for Christmas, please?
And I'll wear it for an episode.
I reckon you can get them on Amazon for sure.
You can make it.
It's just a feather bar.
I think that the Tellerite costume must have been used before.
There is a lot of apparent gaffer tape on it, I think.
There is, but there's also a lot of hair on his fingers.
Have you know his?
No, yeah, no, the king's fingers there, though, really?
Oh, yeah, he's got really hairy hands.
Oh, he's got 3 fingers to tell the rights have 3 fingers.
I guess they do now.
They do in this one.
Because they're...
What we doing now?
Oh, now he's got to watch her die out. are going to it?
Now we're going to explore.
I know we're quite near the end of the episode now, so relax
okay?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's almost, almost.
Wow.
The most powerful one in history.
If I was to drop this flask, the resulting explosion. drop it for
fuck's sake, drop it.
Aporizer planet.
Yeah, whoa.
You see, all of that's so stupid.
It's just like, and he's got a big explosive thing, which we're
only mentioning just now for the sake of exploding martar.
I do like that planet surface, though.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean, it's just the usual rocks, but they've done a bit of
atmosphere.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
There's a bit of smoke and a bit of like the lighting's a bit
dark.
The smoke boring.
Do you know what this reminded me of?
This is a bit of a Doctor Who reference.
It reminded me of Mind Warp when Perry Brown gets taken out to the
Sea of Sorrows and chained to all...
She's murdered at the end of that as well.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So things weren't improving in the 80s.
No, that's right.
Okay, that's 20 years later. you know this is 20 years earlier
than that.
And so this is just unpleasant.
And what's supposed to be happening.
Like plot wise, what's what's happening here.
He's trying to make...
I'm going to say it's you now.
He's killing her because he's mad.
Ah, there we go.
But I mean, what about the writers?
Like what are the writers think this scene is doing?
You think this was written?
Yeah. that's the problem.
Like, what do they think this scene is for?
Is it to show us what an evil guy Garth is?
Like, we sort of got that.
You know, it's not fun to watch her.
That's awful.
That shot was really awful.
And there we go.
I had a draft once and I went up, yeah, yeah.
So a tuna Madras.
Oh my god.
Yeah, now now Kirk's really angry because he's killed someone.
That explosion in her necklace was so vast that they could
detect...
Truly.
Here they are.
It's another fucking scene where they're just explaining why they
can't do anything.
That's all that happens in these scenes, yeah.
Mr. McCoy doing anything.
I can't do anything, does he?
Deforest has given it is all with the stairs, but nothing is going
on.
Oh, God.
I feel really so, because we've done a couple recently of TS's
where porn show, Nichols has done absolutely nothing.
Nothing at all.
She's just sat at that console.
No wonder she said I've had enough.
I don't want to do this.
Yeah, but at least everyone has nothing to do in these scenes
democratised it.
That makes it all right.
Yeah, no one has anything to do.
Oh, wait, we're going to fire the fan.
It's just you this week, alright?
everybody.
And we're going to fire the phases, but we're going to do it
really cheaply using stock footage that is taken from a previous
episode.
Oh, is that what you're watching?
No, I'm watching the new one, but I do happen to know that this is
just reused footage.
It did baffle the question.
I was like, why didn't they do this earlier?
They knew where the weak point was and they could get through the
phases.
Well, why didn't we do this half hour ago?
Well, it doesn't matter.
It doesn't work.
I mean, the force field still holding?
So literally that was all nothing.
So that scene was literally just wasting time.
I do that a lot in this notch.
Remember that episode we were TNG we were watching where they were
at war 5 and he goes, well, we, you know, we need to catch up with
them now.
Go to warp nine.
And I said to you, well, why the fuck were they going to walk on
in the 1st place?
That's it.
They were saving thing.
Who knows?
Saving gas.
At this point, he needs to die, don't he?
Oh, can I let you into a little secret?
Both times I watched this episode, yeah.
I had to turn it off before the end.
So I don't know what happens in the last 5 minutes.
Oh, really?
So I'm quite excited to learn how golf is defeated.
I've not seen him defeated yet.
Oh, yeah, okay. you'll be super impressed.
It's very clever.
Oh, it's a bit where Spock touching before.
Yeah, this, this.
He looks so good.
I refuse to believe he's been beyond that for that long and he
hasn't touched it.
No, but that's just Nemoy going, fucking hell. am I doing?
Here comes the glitzy Andorian. pimp.
They're both.
I love the fact that he shows no sign of embarrassment wearing it
either.
Yeah, good.
Yeah.
Oh, do you know what?
I'm a bit bored of all these sets now as well.
You know, we've been up and down the same corridors a lot.
Oh, go on, Spock.
He knocked them both out, though, with one bridge.
Yeah, woo hoo.
Finally, this is coming to an end.
Yay.
Oh, he takes a gun.
What else he do?
Just walks off.
He's so bored He doesn't even run.
Meanwhile, back in this room, Garth is still prostrating to
Captain Kirk and...
The thing that this reminds us of, of course, is that scene in the
undiscovered country, isn't it?
Where David Bowie's girlfriend is a shapeshifting alien and it, oh
but that was amazing. is really good to remember.
Nathan.
I can't believe I kissed you.
Yeah, it must have been a lifelong ambition.
So good.
But one exchange is more fun than this.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. that whole Yeah, well, that's a brilliant film
so good Oh, this is fun.
The 2 terms, yeah.
I've not seen it from this point.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So this is pretty good.
Okay.
So now Spock's got to decide which Kirk is Kirk.
Yeah, yeah.
And of course, the obvious thing to do is you've got a phaser set
to stun, so just stun both of them and then call up.
I'll do.
Yeah.
There was 2 of you in front of me, I'd stun you both.
Yep, yep.
You'd both wake up in very uncompromising positions.
Oh dear, here we go.
And so we're doing the same thing with the Queen of Knights Rook 5
or whatever.
He did a good eyebrow race there.
Yep.
I'm going for anything I can get now.
I think that's what you have to do.
Fascinating.
Come on.
Shoe and both.
Yeah, so we're asking a question that only Spock would know.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
We do this a couple of times in 90s track as well, you know, where
you've got 2 of the same people.
Yeah.
There's a scene in the adversary, which 2 Odos, uh, where it goes
anyone could have known that information.
Well, that was exactly what we have here.
The cockrain maneuver. everyone does that all the time.
And so he just goes, oh, yeah, okay.
Yeah.
So, I just feel more relaxed that Nemoy's on the screen somehow.
Yeah, yeah, and that he's in charge of the of the scene.
So we do a sort of wisdom of Solomon thing, right?
You know, the story about the the 2 women bring the baby to
Solomon.
Oh, here we go.
They're fighting each other.
Look at the terrible double.
Look at the stunt double. his visible face.
There is one great cup though, where we cut from the stump double
falling to a close-up of Shatton to doing the same maneuver, which
is pretty good.
There is nothing like that.
It's no.
And there's one thing where Shatner puts his hand over the stunt
doubles face as he's fighting so that we can't see that it's him.
It's so bad.
Oh my god.
I mean, they've done, they've done doubles in TOS way better than
this in the NBA.
But they did worse ones.
Remember the tiny little guy with the high voice who became 6 foot
tall when he was the stunt dubble in the wolf in the fold?
That was our favourite pole.
That was awesome.
Yeah, so now he just goes standing there the whole time watching
this fire.
Yeah, yeah.
He's just going, yeah fuck it. shoot shoot him.
Yeah, and why didn't you do this at the start?
Oh, no, he has he shot the right one, though?
No, he shoots.
No, because the real Shatner.
Oh no, he just shoots one.
The real Shatner says you should shoot both of us for the sake of
the Enterprise, and then he knows it's the real Shatner.
And then later on, the real Kirk.
And then later on the crap joke at the end is a conversation
between the 2 of them where Kirk goes, how come it took you so
long to work out, which of us was Garth?
And he said, he says, oh, I was just going to wait till the
physical conflict was over and then shoot the winner because they
use a Garth would win.
Because of your depleted condition, Captain.
That's actually a pretty good choice.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, that is really, very low.
Does they do the music, though, though?
I can't remember, probably.
But they're curing the Andorian of his mental illness and now
they've cured Gar. and he's just sitting there and everything's
fine and there are no consequences for anything.
And we don't mention that.
He's just got to go in that machine and he's fine now.
No, well, I don't think so, because the machine just causes you
pain.
I think he's just relaxing in the machine after being given the
injection of the medicine.
Have you seen he's got different coloured boots on?
He's got one green and one blue boot.
It will.
It was mad.
He was mad.
Yeah, true, man.
Yeah.
But he's not mad anymore.
He's cured.
He doesn't remember who Kirk is.
Oh, that's so terrible.
What's so boring, isn't it?
Yeah, yeah.
Like the ending of statistical probabilities is they're all still
got their problems at the end.
Yeah, yep.
And they've like taken terrible. the community.
That's it.
You know, that's that's the nice thing about it.
Oh Jesus Christ.
Yep, so that's it.
He goes off.
Off, he goes.
I wondered why Captain Garth hadn't ever been mentioned in Lower
Decks, but he doesn't seem to have been.
I did check.
I'm wondering why he hasn't appeared in those days.
He'd be perfect for it.
My God, he's lost his mind again.
We've got to get after Captain golf.
So apparently there was some discourse around Star Trek into
Darkness and who the character John Harrison was going to be.
Like, you remember Bernadette Cumberbond.
What's his name?
Benedict Cumberbatch.
Bernard Cumberbond. whatever.
So he played John Harrison and people thought he had a secret
identity and of course he ended up being kind.
No, please don't tell me that anyone thought he was going to be
Captain Garth's mad.
Mad Captain Garth.
Wouldn't that be...
Talk about starting up and going.
Lord God.
I mean, awesome.
Come on.
Yeah, so here it is.
This is where he admits to how he was just going to wait.
He was just gonna wait.
And Shatner's really not very impressed.
Nemoy, look, handsome.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yep.
He's got such a dramatic profile.
I think he's very handsome man.
There we go.
We've done our crap joke and it's time to be...
We've got an eyebrow there and that's the end of it.
Which is by Fred Freiburger.
We know.
Yeah, we could tell.
Thanks, Fred.
What did you glean from that about mental illness, then, Nathan?
Nothing really.
No.
It can be cured with an intra Venus injection is what I've learned
makes you want to murder people spectacularly for no reason
whatsoever.
Oh, it makes you wear very cam clothes.
Yeah, that's an upside, I think.
Yeah.
And it provokes the wheelbarrow dance.
Yeah, Jesus Christ, that was boring.
That was so amazingly boring, wasn't it?
Oh my god.
I'll tell you what, that wasn't much of a struggle to do a
commentary on as wolf in the fold, if I want.
That interminable 15 minute scene in the middle.
We really struggled during that.
Yeah, I think the wolf in the fold because it goes from place to
place.
It is a better episode than this.
It's still very bad.
It was way more atmospheric than this.
It was better directed and designed.
Yeah, and just more interesting because even though we did have
that complete dead zone in the middle where nothing interesting is
happening.
Yeah, just to prove that season 3 is going to forge ahead now with
more issue-based drama, let that be your battlefield is the next
episode.
Enterprising Council's 2 duochromatic and mutually belligerent
aliens.
Do you remember?
Yes, I think it's just possible that it's an extremely subtle
allegory for racism.
Extremely, yes.
Isn't he, isn't it Frank Gautian?
isn't it the Riddler is one of them?
It's a 2nd Batman person.
They're literally...
Freiburg was like, who's popular elsewhere?
What are people watching?
What's good?
Oh, madness.
Well, I have to say that, yeah, usually we head to the original
series and we're delighted because we're going to have a lot of
fun.
We didn't have a lot of fun with that, did we?
It's that thing with the original series, and I think I said it
when we did Galileo 7 because it's also true of that, although
that is a vastly better episode than this one, that sometimes it
just seems astonishingly amateurish.
And this one with its sort of cartoon crayon depiction of mental
illness, it just seemed, it's just like, do you people know
nothing about anything at all?
Is that the issue here?
Well, you say cartoon.
Well, I think if the cartoon iteration on, I'm not talking about
the anime series...
Yeah.
Did something on mental illness, it would have way more Thorn
Death Twitter, yes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
And I think they would kind of realise that probably it might be
too big a thing for them to deal with.
But, you know, like, I mean, this was just stupid, I think.
And it was exploitative.
I think that the Avon Craig thing was particularly unfortunate and
kind of unpleasant to watch.
When Voyager did a rare sort of step into mental illness with
Sudar, who was psychotic.
It was really well done.
I remember Chewvox trying to find a logical motive as to why he'll
kill somebody and pseudo goes, I didn't like the way he looked at
me.
And Chuvo was like, that's not enough.
That is not enough for a reason for you to want to murder
something.
And they sort of go into how how you can be triggered in
unexpected ways.
I think, though, that like Suda is just Hannibal Lecter a few
years later, and it said, let's have our version of Hannibal
Lecter and he's a Betazoid, and he can be on Voyager.
And what if we had to deal with someone that we couldn't ship them
off to a penal colony or to Elba 2 and get them dealt with?
But it's more interesting than this.
Yeah, it's more interesting.
I mean, you know, like that sort of thing was very popular at the
time and doesn't necessarily reflect what actual psychopaths are.
But somehow it seems less offensive than what we had here.
And it seemed a little bit more kind of grown up.
But again, it is just a trope.
Like the consulting psychopath that we have in Science of the
Lambs was very effective and hugely important. soon it becomes
isn't it?
It's a bit of a trope, though.
Someone's behaving in a psychotic way.
Right, let's go and talk to Sudo.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
The influence seems to be a 90s strike, isn't it?
If you're not an upstanding member of the Federation, you know
holding all the morals, that there is some mental health issues
going on there, you know?
Yeah, because everybody's perfect in the future.
Well, no, but they've cured mental illness, so that can't be
true.
We have a medicine.
It's an intravenous injection.
It starts working almost immediately.
I wonder what went wrong with Barclay then.
All right, it's the end of the episode and it's time for us to
work out what we're going to watch next.
I chose this one with my usual skill.
And so it's your turn, Joe, and I think we have something special
coming up for Christmas, is that right?
We do.
Can you also de- evolve people with your usual skill?
I can, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, re evolve. is what I tend to do.
I've always, sorry, but yeah.
It's very exciting.
We are heading to a well that we have not drained too often.
In fact, only once before where we spent almost 2.5 hours
destroying the reputation of Star Trek generations.
We're doing the movies.
Yeah, that's fun.
It's well past time.
Well, we kind of said once a year, didn't we?
Yeah, yeah.
I think it can be a thing like towards Christmas, it can be our
sort of seasonal special.
We'll do one of the movies.
So this is our 2nd one.
Hot luck.
We know with Star Trek movies, you know, it's hit and miss all odd
and even.
Yep.
Let's see what gets on the button.
All right, you ready for this?
Yep.
Okay.
Your random Star Trek film is good Star Trek generations.
Well, we have to do it again.
Nope, roll again.
What are the oats?
Can you work out the odds, please?
How many movies are there?
12, 13, I don't know.
Oh, oh, oh, you said you wanted a goodie.
Oh, what is it?
Star Trek's favourite Star Trek?
Star Trek two.
Star Trek four.
Star Trek 4, the Voyager.
I love Star Trek four.
Oh, my God, I love it so much.
I'm cute.
He gave me a pill when I've got a new kidney.
I can't wait.
That's awesome.
That's one of my favourites too.
Cleoid, West Adels.
But where is Alameda?
It's so good.
Oh, man.
Yeah, and, well, we watched Star Trek Picant season two, which was
just full of references to it.
And we've since, you know, we've also seen Futures End where we
kind of do the same thing.
It's something that Star Trek goes back to every decade or so.
But this is the 1st time and it's magnificent, I think.
There is an entire episode of the centre seat about the voyage
home. packed full of trivia and quotes from the actors, Nemoy
loads of people.
There's a, oh, I can't just sort of spoil one thing now, where
lovely Dr. Gillian.
Captain Kirk's bow in this episode is literally quoted as saying, I
said, cut.
Leonard, will you get William Shatner out of my life?
I'm not getting any shots.
Get him away from me.
And you know what?
It is, when were you randomised, Star Trek stories?
It is hit and miss as to what I say about whether I'm going to
like it or not because sometimes we go back and it's dreadful and
other times we go back and we're surprised.
I can guarantee that we will enjoy this film.
I'm pretty confident about that too.
It is pretty great.
All right.
Oh, wonderful.
And it'll be, it's the 1st time that that punk appeared in Star
Trek as well, isn't it?
But not the last. not the last time.
Excellent.
You've been listening to untitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford
and Nathan Bottomley.
We're online at untitled Star Trek project.com, where you can find
subscription links and links to our social media accounts.
Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceran, and the theme was
composed by Cameron Lann.
This episode was recorded on the 28th of November 2023 and
released on the 1st of December.
We'll see you next time for Star Trek 4, The Voyage Home.
Ah, yeah, good choice.
Good choice.
Yeah, yeah, that's awesome.
I was hoping for start five.
Fuck's sake.
Oh well, we'll get it one day.
Well, there's nothing to talk about why it went wrong, William
Shatner.
Also that thing, you know, because we get to talk about two, three
and four, don't we?
Like a bit in Star Trek 4 because it's a trilogy.
Yeah, it pays off loads.
Yeah.
It's really good.
Where are they at the beginning?
They're on...
They're on... been, is the Enterprise just, so two.
Oh, they're on the Klingon, the Klingon ship on Vulcan.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. the beginning, you know, how do you feel?
Yeah, because he's been re-bodied or whatever.
I do not understand the question.
Oh, I know so many questions.
And it's really fabulously 80s as well.
It's so period.
Like it just, it, you know, just fits in with all of the films of
that era, all the films of my childhood.
So good.
He's talking to that man.
What about Scotty talking into the mouse as well?
And like, oh, hello, computer.
People didn't even know what a mouse was back then.
Like it's like 1984.
That's when the Mac comes out.
No one had used a mouse before then and at least at home.
It was so great.
So good.
I laughed a bit when they were all on the street and he's like, oh
blend in.
They just look more awkward.
They're such nerds.
Oh, it's so great.
And everyone gets a slice of the pie as well, which I really
like.
Yeah.
It's almost like Nimwa's got no bill. not all going to be about
you.
This once.
Oh, the whole bit in the hospital where they take her in.
Hasn't she got like a baseball up at top?
Remember?
No.
And then they bring Chekov out and they went, he?
You went in with a she.
That's great.
Name?
No, my name.
I do not know your name.
It's such a great movie.
It's the one, isn't it?
It is the one.
I think aside from 1st contact that really chimed with everybody
not just the Trek fans.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, I think I think those Star Trek films were popular despite
that weird false start.
Like, I think that weird false start, where they never go to that
again.
Do you know what I mean?
They become action adventure.
They're not trying to be Kubrick the 2nd time through.
And so I remember them being fun.
I remember, like, I'm sure that I went.
I think I saw 6 in the cinema after I'd kind of started to get
into Star Trek and I just took everyone.
Like, I just said, all right, like, to all my friends, we're going
to walk down to the monthly plates and watch Star Trek, and they
all did, and it was like boxing day or something.
Yeah, like I just, I remember it really well.
Six.
I remember watching generations in the cinema and going, well, what
the fuck?
generations and my father saw generations and drunk for some
reason.
I think I would be drunk.
It didn't help.
No.
Well, I remember my father saying he'd seen it and he says that
and we're on the ship and then we're on a sailing ship for some
reason and I don't know why and it's kind of like, yeah, you know
like who the hell is going to be able to understand this at all.
They just don't, that's so dumb, isn't it?
Like, we didn't even talk about how dumb that was at the time, but
it's like, who are these people on the sailing ship now?
Do you know what I mean?
I mean, we truly brutalised that in our commentary.
You will try to find the goods that I just went to town on that
one.
Oh, just people of Veridium 3.
Who gives a fuck about them?
Yeah, no.
Just goes to show.
Everyone else are off days.
Well, Bran Bragg will row it with him, didn't he?
Yeah, yeah, let's blame him.
He gets the blame for everything.
Right or a threshold.
Oh, sorry.
He did do 100 off scripts.
Yeah, we should never mention that.
It's not fair.
X what does it all day?
Yeah.