Hey, Joe. Hi.
So today we are at the end of series one of Lower Decks, we're
watching the 2nd last episode, which is called Crisis Point.
And when I spoke to you online a bit earlier, you were basically
all well done, no notes about this one.
No, I've got plenty of notes. none of them are critical.
That's all.
There wasn't a 2nd of this.
I didn't think was blissful.
Yeah, it is pretty great.
I have one tiny criticism, which is that I don't think that we
properly set up the inciting incident for Marinaco quite so mad by
getting quite so cross at her mother.
And that scene at the beginning before the opening credits is
great and really properly funny and says something about the
character, but she seems to be overreacting to just being forced
to go and see Dr. Miglimo.
And his food metaphors.
This is his 1st episode and he is now a semi-regular, of course.
We seem to be in a bit of a pickle, Nathan.
Now you're being like a pineapple, right?
It just gets ridiculous.
It gets ridiculous.
I was like, they can't keep throwing out food shows.
They do.
Like a lot starts here too.
I think like a lot of the stuff that happens with Tandy in
subsequent seasons, including the most recent series that ended
last week, all the Orion stuff and about her backstory and Orion's
all of which got touched on in those old scientists as well.
All of that starts here.
And it made me realise that the 1st time we see an Orion woman is
in the pilot, isn't it?
Where, um, Vina appears to Pike in the guise of an Orion woman.
She's a green.
And the Orion women were always sort of people to have sex with
basically, like that was kind of their role.
And having Tandy on the ship, who is sweet and innocent and
absolutely enthused about science and exploration and all of those
Star Trek things, is just wonderful.
It's like having wharf on the bridge of the enterprise D. You know
it's reclaiming this rather silly Star Trek species.
Even enterprise, which obviously is before TOS, they add a child
to sort of redeem them a bit. and there's an episode with Orion
bounty hunters in it, and they're just a bunch of thugs. and then
in series 4, they go down to an Orion Planet, and it's just
options.
It's sex workers, basically, you know.
So there's nothing positive at all.
What I really loved was how Tendi played along with the role for a
bit. like, oh this could be fun.
And then she realises it's just getting more and more offensive as
she goes along.
She just goes, I'm not doing this, all right?
This isn't who I am.
Is this how you see me?
The other side character whose name I always forget with the
eyepiece?
Rutherford.
It was absolutely gorgeous.
He gets a little subplot in this as well, where I couldn't
remember what his relationship with the engineer was.
I'm going, is he really going to go and tell him, you're an
asshole.
And then of course, the joke is, no, I think you're amazing.
And the way you tickle the warp coils.
It's you're the finest engineer and stuff.
Man, you can love these people more.
Yeah, both of them have a kind of slightly crazed, hysterical
thing.
There's a line in those old scientists.
Excuse me.
It's like you and me talking about Star Trek.
Well, yeah, yeah.
There's a line in those old scientists where Boimler observes that
everyone here talks slower and quieter than they do at home.
And of course, everyone, like Tandy and Rutherford are sweet and
childlike because they're cartoon characters, and there's always a
sort of hysterical, slightly hysterical edge to how excited both
of them get about all of the science stuff.
That line about the way the dialogue's sped up in cartoons.
I know that's just taking a piss out of the form of a cartoon.
But as well, there's so many jokes they pack into a lower X
episode.
They've got to talk fast.
Otherwise we wouldn't get them all in.
Yeah.
But it just means they're far enough one after another.
So I'm just constantly laughing throughout the entire thing.
And then we go back to 90s trek where everyone does talk very
softly and I understand, this is a little bit laborious, isn't
it?
Yeah, I mean, I really, really like this.
This is my comfort trek, and I think it is funny and well written
and I think it manages to be Star Trek.
And it has ambitions beyond just being about the show or about the
franchise because I think it does actually do Star Trek, but it
doesn't get, it rarely gets maudlin.
It sometimes has heart, though.
It sometimes does make you feel for the characters, I think.
Oh, I think it frequently has heart.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I'm always sympathising with the characters, but I think this
episode in particular shows the detractors of this show just how
much you can probe these characters within this format because it
doesn't slow down, but it's saying a lot. you know, low decks uses
the cliches all the time.
But the way it uses the holodeck in this, I think it might be the
most audacious use of the holodeck since.
Ah, man, Bashir, possibly, Bada bang, something like that.
What about that one where Badgie was going after everyone and
trying to kill them?
That was great as well.
Oh, no wonder he is coming back.
I'll see that badger, you know, every convention I go to.
They've got badgie merchandise.
Like, is he that massive in this show?
can't remember.
Well, he does come back in series 4 again for another go round in
an episode that is pretty great.
But what this appears to be, initially, is a massive rip on Star
Trek movies and obviously that is something that needs to happen
because they can be incredibly serious and stupid.
So they're just ripe for the picking.
But as the episode continues and suddenly Mariner is going up
against her mother and then going up against her.
It's peeling away layers of that character.
He's telling us really into.
They suggest that she's worked for her problems at the end of this
episode.
How intense things get, our question of whether just one fistfight
is going to make all those problems go away and we do explore it
more as series goes along.
But I don't think anybody was expecting this level of intensity in
lower decks.
So when I watched this episode, I really, I mean, you said last
week, we're doing this one.
I went, yeah, that was the 1st time on this show.
I really sort of sat back and forth.
These are real characters going on real journeys that can
genuinely surprise me.
I didn't expect that with this show.
Yeah, yeah.
I think it is really quite amazing.
You know, Star Trek, Strange New Worlds had 2 episodes that tried
on hard mode this season and one was the musical and then the
other one was the crossover with this and it did it so incredibly
well.
And it turns out Boimler and Mariner are both functional
characters who work really, really well within the context of that
show.
I almost felt like a gift to the actors.
I had imbued this series with so much heart for them to be in live
action trek.
And yeah, you're right.
That was just as blissful as this was.
I can't wait till we do that one as well. wonderful.
I did say to you off, Michael.
I am scared though, because there were so many jokes about the
Star Trek movies in this episode.
I'm scared we're going to miss it because they go by like our list
quickly.
I was like typing to you as I was watching it, trying to get I was
like, 0 my god, there's another one quick, right, quick.
Yeah.
Oh, it's just glorious.
Do you know, we did talk just a 2nd ago about, you know, how
divisive lower decks can be and why some people don't really get
it.
I think it's because I don't think Star Trek fans like, this is an
obvious thing to say, but like people poking fun as something that
they take incredibly seriously.
Like people embrace Star Trek as a life choice, you know, not just
as a TV show to watch.
I've seen that trekkers program.
People are dressing up like Klingons and going into McDonald's and
that one fellow's got his entire dentist surgery set up like the
bridge and things like this and they behave, you know, to the code
of honour of the captains in their life and things like this and
go on away missions down the shops.
And a lot comes lower decks, which is absolutely ripping into all
of that.
But doing it in the sort of galaxy quest way where it's taken a
piss, but it loves it.
It's doing it affectionately as well.
But I still think that niggles for some people that take all of
this incredibly seriously.
I think the reason why you and I like it is because we don't take
none of this seriously at all. listen to the last 60 episodes of
this podcast where we basically laugh our way through every
episode.
Yeah.
So some of my friends who don't like it don't like cartoons. and
so they don't watch it because cartoons aren't for them.
That's fair But I always suspect that the problem was that lower
decks makes the world ridiculous.
And if Star Trek is a history of the future where all of these
things happened on particular dates and stuff, you don't actually
need lower decks to make it ridiculous because it's absolutely
ridiculous just because it's Star Trek and...
Oh, that's exactly what I was just about.
Yeah, that's right.
Oh, I mean, lower tax makes...
But it does make out more ridiculous.
Yeah, yeah.
Oh for sure.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's Star Trek the sitcom, basically, isn't it?
Yeah It just warms my heart when I go to memory alpha and look at
someone's page, some character's page, and I see that character in
live action, and then I see them on lower decks, and memory alpha
just treats everything is equally canonical, and I think that
that's wonderful.
God bless them.
It absolutely should.
Well, and as we've discussed before as well.
It's a relief that lower decks exists because before this, the
only animated Star Trek we had was the animated series.
And, you know, that's so appalling even June Brodenbury tried to
wash his hands with it.
Yeah.
No, well, and it regards itself as a kind of sequel to that series
as well.
It frequently refers to it, and it is the sort of previous
animated series in Star Trek.
It's part of the whole rich legacy.
Before we go into episode.
I just want to say, I have discovered a documentary series on
Prime called the centre seat, right?
And it is the greatest amass number of interviews I've ever seen
for Star Trek.
Each episode covers one TV show or the movies right up until
Kurtzman Trek.
They pulled in writers, directors, showrunners, actors, everybody
you can think of.
It's packed full of trivia.
There's some really interesting stuff about Gene Roddenbury in
there, which I cannot wait to get into during the appropriate
episodes.
So just as I recommend to everybody, go and find the centre seat
on Prime Video.
I don't think you'll ever find a greater amassed amount of trivia
about Star Trek from the mouths of the people that actually were
making it.
It's absolutely fascinating.
I haven't got to lower decks one yet, so I can't add anything to
this, but I will.
There is a lower decks one.
There is, it's right up until Kurtzman Trek, yeah.
W wonderful.
Yeah.
And narrated by Gates McFadden, and she's got great fun with it.
Because they've given her this very witty script.
You know, she's doing the sort of reversal gags, which everything
was going swimmingly until it wasn't, you know, and then we cut to
the next interview.
Wonderful.
All right, shall we go in?
We should, yeah.
We should.
All right, I'll count it in.
Five, four, three, two, one, and we're off.
So this is before we get the, you know, the special trek logo
before we get the trek cinematic universe logo.
So this opening scene actually I really like, because what it does
do is it shows you the difference between Mariner and everyone
else, and it's very, very clear that Mariner wants to rescue
people and do the right thing.
And she's doing it right away in that very 1st episode, remember?
When she's selling arts, no, giving away art supplies to the kids
and stuff?
That's the character we needed in Star Trek the Next Generation
series one where they were going around ignoring the plight of the
universe because the prime director said so.
So I love these, these, the lizards who are really dumb, and so
they're not that worried about whether they're saved or not, and
that it kind of doesn't occur to them, that not being eaten would
be good, because they, they're so.
Until she points out.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
This is clearly the Sele and the Anticons from...
They look exactly...
But look at this.
Look at this.
The rat guy when he just thinks about eating the lizards, like he
licks his lips.
So good.
It's so good And then the way it's resolved.
It's like, can you stop eating the lizards if we give you
replicators?
How's your dog going to show that?
The prime directive, as a story setting device, because whether
you do get involved or whether you don't, you've got 2 very
different stories, you can tell there on each planet.
It works.
Both are frustrated in different ways though, usually.
Yeah, and so in this strange position at this point in the show
where Mariner isn't known by anyone else to be Freeman's daughter
so no one knows that.
I wanted to ask you about that.
Yeah, obviously, obviously they know.
But there's nobody else in the show know at this point.
No, no, we know, but they...
When's that revealed in the next episode?
Yeah, yeah.
Because boy, I will find out at the end of this episode.
I'm wondering if he might have aced his interview at the end if he
if he didn't have this huge secret lock in his head.
Part of the fun here is, of course, just the massive anti-climax.
Like, you know, Freeman's been complaining about how much
difficulty she has and how she'll have to fill in all these forms
and she's created this big problem and Freeman goes up and says, do
you want to replicate her?
Can they produce nutrient pellets?
Yes.
And that's it.
That solved the problem.
So it's funny watching this scene after watching series four, not
this shot, but the next one, is it the next one?
So we're gonna break the icicle off. love this title sequence.
Yeah, it's so good.
Look at that.
The Cerritos goes, fuck this.
I'm not fighting the Borg.
I off.
Yeah, yeah.
But in series 2, they add the Pac-Leds in series 3, they add the
Silicon Avatar.
And in series 4 they add the whale thing that, oh, there's your
guy sucking on the...
It's the way he looks at me and was on it, yeah.
And of course...
He's, he's in the, he's in the opening credits of those old
scientists, um, sucking on the Nacelle of the Enterprise.
So good.
Oh, I love the love that goes.
Oh here he is.
It's a veritable fruit salad.
He's so funny.
And that character is so great that they just bring him back all
the time.
This is literally his 1st time he looks like he's going to be a
one off character.
We never saw it, but her reaction to therapy is how I imagine
every crew member on the Enterprise felt when they said, you're
going to have to go see Deanna Troy.
Troy.
Oh, God.
Anything but a pathetic psychobabble.
I'd rather have the food metaphors.
He does sit up.
Oh, so this, this, this, I love.
I love how he says, um, or even there, Citendi.
But you know, it's so great because it's setting up a gag at the
end.
Yeah, yeah, he comes over and shoots them.
And so that's Gary Cole, who you might remember as Mike Brady from
the Brady Bunch movie alongside Shelley Long. Or he was also the
evil sheriff in American Gothic.
And he gets like about 5 lines in this episode.
I'm so pleased they created a character, like that fella in the
lower decks TNG episode that was always trying to sort of suck up
to Riker.
Yeah, it's just right for humour and for pathos as well.
Because he's so desperate to impress. he gets there in the air
doesn't he?
He gets sent permission.
But in a sad way.
So what because what happens is so his name's Lavelle, remember?
and in the episode lower decks, There's a scene he's been excluded
all the time from sitting with Riker.
Riker's not interested in him.
He thinks Riker doesn't like him.
After Cito dies, Riker actually asks if he can sit with them.
You know, wonderful moment.
Troy goes, it reminds me of you when you were that age.
Yeah, that's right.
But then, of course, in this, you get him asking about the
cookies.
I'm going to make her some cookies.
And the fella goes, yeah, that's a good idea after I've done that
before.
So, here we go.
She's taken 20 seconds to write a movie.
We've done the Star Trek, the Next Generation series 5 opening
titles with the Wushy Warp thing, and you can almost hear the
James Horner music.
I can't, because I can't.
But the horns are going crazy, right?
There's our Zon reference.
Oh, I forgot.
You are more of a Zon anyway.
You were never going to make the shot.
So great.
Which she goes to him, yeah.
I've got the perfect part of you It's just him, isn't it?
But with a squeaky voice.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So he's he's Shampo.
Look at, look at...
I just love that visual of this. standing in a movie title
sequence. all the stars going around them.
Yeah, it's really great isn't it?
This is some of that, that's just some of the terrific visuals
that doing a cartoon can afford you.
And so, and so here, one of the things that they do is the little
like, bottom left-hand corner where they say where we are, which
is a thing that the movies had, but the TV shows never used to
have.
They do occasionally now, but that used to be a thing.
And then, you know, this is a bit like the crappy scene in nemesis
where they're all riding those bikes or whatever.
But it also is like Star Trek five.
It's like, you know, the captain climbing El Capitan, so that we
instead of being inside, you know, all the time we go as outside
as we possibly can just to show everyone what a budget we've got.
It was, it's in nemesis, it's just terrible, isn't it?
Because it's in the middle of like all this serious stuff and then
they're just sort of laughing and going along the desert planet in
their buggies.
Oh, look, it's that space station.
A gorgeous space station.
Yep.
Yeah.
Oh, I like the fact that boiling goes, you know what?
In real life, it would be the enterprise on this mission.
We wouldn't send this Areritos for this.
Fortunately, we've just had a refit so we can do an agonisingly
long fly.
So great.
But I mean, in the story, it's like someone pretending to do 2nd
contacts with people.
And so that's why we send the Cerritos because it's about a fake
2nd contact.
I just love it, though.
I love thinking now when I watch Next Generation, all this stuff
with the sort of lesser ships.
Yeah, the shitter plots are going on in the background. you know?
Notice how this is directed too.
So it's in widescreen and there's of like the depth of focus is
different people in the background.
Oh, and look.
You know how you get the, you know, when they put it on the cinema
and you get the effect on the screen, they're doing that as well.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Which is very clever.
Look at all this.
I mean, it looks as beautiful as it did in the motion picture.
It's so great It's just the fact we keep cutting to their reaction
shots like you do recur.
Yeah.
And of course, that goes on for about 5 minutes.
We're not going to waste 5 minutes of this, you know, 30 minute
episode of lower deck.
But they don't, there's no lines.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, it is just the music.
It's the music from Star Trek 2 and the lower decks theme and
these shots and they just keep happening and we, that's the joke
you know.
A lower decks episode, you know, like we've said, already packed
so much in for them to just stop for 30 seconds.
It's the equivalent of doing 5 minutes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's like that shot where we're just going around and around for
no reason.
It's so great.
Everyone's looking at it so dreamy, aren't they?
Our beautiful ship.
But I mean, they deserve to do that in Star Trek, the Motion
Picture.
Like, it is ridiculous. absurd.
But, you know, we'd seen that those shots of the Enterprise on our
shitty televisions.
Yeah, look, just everything's widescreen.
There's a bit of film grain.
If you look closely, you can see actual film grain.
Bloody Star Trek film, they're doing the lens flare.
They're doing the lens flare from the Abrams films.
They're doing some weird ass, like a new special effect for going
into warp because it's a movie.
All the jokes they do about because it's a movie.
But none of the rules apply to your normal Star Trek episode.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, look at that.
Everyone's out of focus in the background.
Now Boyem was out of focus in the foreground.
Secretly, you know, I think Shaq might be my favourite character.
Yeah, he's adorable, isn't he?
He's so good.
So he'll get killed next episode.
Oh, the polling decision.
But then the jokes for him coming back.
Yeah, it's so good.
So is she supposed to be calm here?
Is this the idea?
But I think she's a crapper one.
She's like Nero.
But do you know what I mean?
They always have villains.
They don't really have single episode villains that much in Star
Trek, and certainly not in 90s trek, but it's like Star Trek the
Next Generation has almost no major villains.
And then there's just a series of crappy villains.
F. Murray, Abraham, Eric Banner, like all of these people from the
movies.
Christopher Lloyd.
Well, he's good.
Like, that's the original movies.
They're great.
Tom Halsey.
Let me not forget Tom Hardy.
Yeah.
Oh, she wants she given, uh, Boimler, a podge of face.
Yeah, no, but that's Shampo.
He's just kind of replaced.
He's replaced by him because Boemler didn't want to participate
because he's still using the program the way it was designed to
find a way of sucking up to Carol Freeman.
I love the fact that, oh, man, I'm so terrible with the names.
10 D and Rutherford.
I think I got it right.
So, Shampo.
Por Shampo.
She's very upset.
They're so adorable, but even when they play evil, can't quite do
it.
Well, I mean, it's the other thing that this show does, which is
that it is astonishingly violent.
Like much, much more violent than Star Trek has ever been, even
Discovery series one is pretty violent, but this is much more
seriously violent.
So watch what happens here to these people, poor old Gabrielle
Ruiz, who will be back to play to lean in series 3 and four.
There she is there.
She's about to be squashed.
This was the point where I started thinking, my God.
Whoa, there they go.
Marilyn's got problems.
She literally goes runner, massacres everybody.
Yeah, I I don't think they quite sell it.
But I do think that when the big shock is when our Mariner shows
up and it's the version of Mariner programmed by Boimler, and
that's our Mariner, and she kind of says, actually, no, you really
love your mother, you get to work with your friends.
You know, this is a great job, you love it.
Don't be a dick, you know.
I said that there was no precedence for this episode.
Perhaps, you know, when she goes back into the real world at the
end of the episode and they're all just sort of going, oh, well
that therapy works.
I'm not sure that's enough.
No, they go back to it.
They do go back to it.
Yeah.
I mean, this is, you know what?
This is a computer game.
Let's forget how fun it is to watch her going around murdering
everybody because it's very fun to watch.
Like whenever Voyager did this, you know, holodeck versions of
Voyager, they would never go to these extremes.
No, they wouldn't have this much fun.
We've just shot ransom.
She's talking and walking there.
So now he has to find out what sort of, what sort of cookies
what's allergic to, what you can say.
It will come up.
I baked you some chocolate chip cookies, sir.
So here we are.
Oh, I loved all of this.
Yeah, it's adorable, isn't it?
And this is another cliche as well.
The engineer and the lower decker getting stuck in engineering
during a crisis and I have to come up with something together.
So good.
You're the best engineer in the fleet, is it?
So cute, isn't it?
It's just so adorable.
Oh yeah, he's such a sweet.
I just love how you program subroutines.
Oh my.
You know, you could just substitute it before.
Geordie La Forge or Blanatores, Chief O'Brien, Edson Gomez.
Oh, yeah, do you remember Geordie and Ensign Gomez?
I do believe they're only in one episode, not they, 2 of them?
I think Sonya's in another episode and she is in a lower decks
episode as Captain...
He's the one that feels hot chocolate over Captain Picard, isn't
she?
Yeah, the 1st time she meets him.
So great.
But I did love the fact that, because someone had to say it.
Tend goes to her.
This is getting out of hand now.
Yeah, yeah, you are.
That's really good. isn't it?
Yeah, it's a great bit.
I love it.
That's like when the borkheads explodes.
There we go.
Well, that's shacks.
Oh, no.
You say this is gross.
She goes, here, try on the earring.
She goes, it's still got some ear on it.
That's right.
But she's doing horror Ryan Pirates thing.
Yeah.
And look, I love Tendi confiding back as well.
Good for her.
I'm confident we're halfway through this already.
It's so sad.
Yeah, yeah.
My one note was, I wish it was twice as long.
Yeah, well, I'm kind of glad it's not.
That's the other thing I like about it.
It's half an hour of Star Trek and then I can get on with my
life.
She said the exact line I was thinking, at the exact point I was
thinking, it goes, this is messed up.
This is messed up, you know.
And then she goes, yeah, look, let's go and murder everyone.
Then we'll grab some tacos.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
What an after.
Yeah.
Unless she's talking about going to find her mother and she goes
you think this is bad?
It's gonna be far worse than that.
And look, she walks out of the holodeck and all of the blood
evaporates.
It's pretty great.
Although they're really going crazy on the old pop and crackle on
the effect.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I think there's a hair in the gate in that shot.
Oh my god.
It's just me and you and these guys.
You just wish that was Harry Kim, didn't you?
I love how she's in a she's in a Klingon bird of prey because
that's always the best model that they just use the fuck out of in
the movies.
Remember, generations when Lerza Betor came along?
Yeah, and of course, Star Trek 3, I think.
And then suddenly they find themselves in this part of the ship
which is the most cinematic set, you can imagine, with all these
layers and levels.
She said that she wanted to fight her on a rickety gantry, like
right at the very beginning, even before she sort of really
started writing the script.
This is so great.
Generation?
crushing the ship.
But also, um, Star Trek beyond.
I love how it rolls.
Isn't that awesome?
The source of rules.
Oh my god.
And the sauce...
That looks so much like the Enterprise D. So also like it's the
same design, isn't it?
It's really great.
That sequence in generations is still great.
Even today when the saucer goes.
Yeah, it's a cartoon version was incredible.
So good.
But the version in Star Trek Beyond is pretty great.
Do you remember when the ship gets destroyed in Star Trek Beyond?
Oh, by that point, the effects are another one.
Incredible.
Gosh, that's a good movie too.
I really like Star Trek Beyond, massively underrated.
Don't we get one of those, you know, those...
What's the fellow's name?
Yeah, Abrams ones.
Thank you.
Yeah, yeah. get one of those.
This captain act.
It's not an act.
I'm overflowing with love and affection.
So good.
Oh, look, and these 2 bond. isn't that adorable?
What were they trying to say about the pair of them at the end
going off to... polish their warp calls together.
Yeah, yeah.
So yeah, later on, of course, it's indicated that Billips is a
virgin, remember, because he belongs to that planet, which is the
sort of strange.
Yeah, yeah.
Where they're all trying to make him have sex.
Yeah, because then he has to become the key.
Yeah.
And they get a hot guy and a hot girl to go to his quarters set
half dressed.
Let's forget about the rest of Star Trek.
Let's just do more days.
So much fun. one's amazing.
Liming about the set. here we go Yeah, but, you know, it's a great
It's actually a great hand-to-hand fight that she has.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So what are we doing?
We're doing we're essentially doing Riker and that guy.
Oh, and Bu Jitsu.
You're not talking about that, are you?
No, no, in the film.
Riker Riker gets a rickety gantry fight with someone.
Is it 1st contact?
Well, no, I'm thinking it's sort of random asshole in insurrection
isn't it?
Does he do a fight with him?
Does he get a fight with a Rayman as well?
It just seems to be like it's off here having a fist fight.
And it's very, it seems a bit inappropriate by the time we get to
nemesis because he's clearly the older man now.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
But there's all of this.
This, um, the intensity between mother and daughter, this is
brilliantly.
But you see, I like the intensity between the 2 mariners.
I think it's really good because our mariners got out of control.
And so this mariner who's turned up, who's been programmed, it
feels like our mariner, like much more like our mariner.
And so we have this sort of thing where we get, you know, her
making sense.
And in a sense, it doesn't matter because they're both cartoon
characters, they're both Mariner.
You know, within this show, she's a version of Mariner, but
they're both on our TVs in a cartoon.
So they're equally mariner.
And so it's great having them sort of play that out and reminding
us what it is about Mariner, who is great, who in that 1st scene
was freeing the lizards from the rat people.
She was doing the right thing.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I just love all the dialogue about, you know, you play the badass
but actually, if you really knuckle down, you would be an amazing
officer and you know it.
You deliberately not doing that.
You sabotage yourself so that you don't have to try too hard.
Yeah, it's pretty great, isn't it?
And what happens wonderfully over the series then is you realise
just how effective mother and daughter are together?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
They play when she goes to rescue her mum in that episode.
She's incredible.
So the big thing that happens in series 4 is that they all get
promoted to Lieutenant junior grade.
Oh, I'm kind of in love with Jet.
He's hot.
There's Jeff.
She goes, she goes, Jeff, you're the man.
I know, boy, I want to be the man.
Can I be the man?
How can I be the man?
I've been asking out my whole life.
But it's such a, this is such literal therapy now, isn't it?
Being the shit out of yourself.
I think it's affecting.
I think it's a great use of the holodeck.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, so it's a, you know, I'd rather that than some Irish town
and Janeway making herself a personalised dildo.
I'd rather watch something that means something.
Yeah.
Yeah, no, that's it.
The thing that happens to the characters actually plays out and
means something.
Like she knows...
You complain about the captain, you complain about her nonstop, and
she goes, yeah, but I love her.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, it's so good, isn't it?
If she, that's right.
She keeps me here, even though I'm a pain in the arse because she
knows that I'd be done in Starfleet.
She wasn't here to watch my back.
And kind of the great thing about it too, is that they both look
more like one another as the fight goes on. because they're both
beat up because, you know, you know, vindictor is, you know, like
dress dress as a Star Trek villain.
And then they were.
They blew themselves up, you know, to save everyone.
Oh, and Paul.
I like the fact that the, the, the fake mariners, the clever one
just as our normal one normally is in the episode.
Yeah.
But it's distract you just long enough for the self-destruct to go
off.
Yeah.
Boom.
Yeah, and now here's a realisation in the holodeck. said.
Look at that gorgeous shot of the shit going around the planet.
It's lovely, isn't it?
Just reminding us that you don't have to be a movie to do a just a
beautiful shot.
And look at Billips.
Look, he doesn't want to bother Billips.
He's so lonely.
He's a stone cold badass.
Look at him.
Go and say hello to him.
I lost his virginity a bit earlier.
Yeah, and this, again, they make up.
That's a great line, isn't it?
She goes, most of them are terrible capitalists, the Orions, but
this is not this one. up until 5 years ago. you know, like
earlier.
Oh, and they're all going to look at the warp core, which Freeman
catches them all laughing and then she goes straight to the
counsellor going, she's up to something.
Something's going wrong.
What does she tell you?
And he straight away makes a food joke.
There was that thing earlier on.
There was that thing earlier on about how she would say how being
excited by the warp core is lame and that was the kind of running
thing in series one.
And in this, she secretly admits that, yes, the warp core is
cool.
It's not lame.
It's a real ethical pickle.
You put me in there, you know.
It's so funny. over the table.
Oh, I was saying, this is great.
Yep.
Yeah, yeah.
This is great.
Well, because this is genuinely shifting the series along now.
Yes, yeah, yeah.
And the series does do that.
Like it doesn't more than, uh, you know, Star Trek than Next
Generation does.
Things shift, relationships change from series to series.
It would be hard to do it all.
No.
I mean, I think Voyager, we've discussed the Voyager kind of
does.
Not as much as it should, but it does.
Yeah. now And you know, actually, what I really loved was how the
you know, the ultimate joke of this episode is him in the
interview.
He walks out after failing the interview and she goes, oh, he
didn't do any preparation.
Prepare enough, yeah.
I didn't prepare at all.
It really lands.
Everything we've said.
And in fact, he completely undermines himself because, of course
all he can think about is how Mariner is Freeman's daughter.
And he went back in that one time just to get an edge in the
interview and completely fucked himself over.
It's one of those things where everything he says, it just gets
worse.
Mariner is hot.
She's nasty.
But what's so funny about that joke?
She just says it as an off the cuff sort of remark.
It's not looking straight at the screen and going, this is the
main joke of the episode.
And so now we're going back to the closing scene of the film where
it turns out she's alive, just like Spock, and then...
It's the only time it comes back.
Vinci from Voyager and the end of the wrath of calm, joining the
forces to make a joke.
Here we are doing all the signatures from the regular cast
members.
I don't know that we...
That was a thing.
I don't think that ever happened in it.
Yeah, it does.
It happens at the end of Star Trek 6 because we think that it's
going to end.
That's the end of the film series.
It was huge in the 80s actually.
Do you remember?
But Greece and all of that, they all did this.
That was the actors kind of saying goodbye to those roles, which
they'd been doing for ages.
Do you have the season finale now on the season finale of Lower
Decks thing now?
So this is obviously kind of the, the fallout where he
accidentally, uh, everyone on the bridge fights out, essentially.
Peanut hamper, his peanut hamper, bless her.
Well, best character in lower days.
So good.
Obviously, there had to be an Exo-Comp character in the next Star
Trek series.
It's so great, so funny.
Just brilliant stuff.
I'm going to say to you what I say at the end of every lower deck
episode we ever do is how can people not enjoy this?
It's so fun yeah, yeah.
The last time we laughed, this March was during that Gary 7
episodes of TOS.
Yeah, well, that was fun.
That was like ridiculous as well.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean, Star Trek is ridiculous, and they accept that, and you can
see 90s Strek trying to hide from it while being ridiculous in its
own way.
And then you see Kurtzman, kind of embracing it, even in discovery
which is very solemn and very serious.
Like Harry Mund is in series one for some reason, you know.
So it does embrace its stupidity right from the get go and I think
that's great.
Although we did say during that episode when Harry Potter appeared
it was just very odd to have this sort of comedy.
You remember when the women came along at the end, take him away.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
The people gave a lot of discovery Star Trek.
Yeah, so like, what is going on in our series?
But like, you know, recently we've watched stuff like Rox and
Shoals, which is incredibly.
You know, it's got someone committing suicide in that episode.
Yeah, yeah, very serious.
You've watched the 1st duty this week, which is an incredibly
serious episode as well.
Most of Star Trek is pretty serious in its tone.
Like, these stuff should be celebrated.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree.
I think that Kurtzman Trek has actually successfully done Star
Trek comedy in a way that Deep Space 9 occasionally manages to do
because some of the comedy there falls flat, I think, but some of
it's extremely good.
Um, but Kurzman Trek has a better hit rate.
And I think Strange New Worlds, you know, with the yearly Spock
sex comedy and those old scientists and just how relaxed all the
characters are, just how much more kind of normal and yeah, relaxed
they are.
The best comedy they ever did was Christina Chong coming along and
that fabulous dress.
The princess and the dog clicking her tits.
So great.
They understand that the show needs to let his hair down.
That does actually show different shades to the characters when
you have fun with them as well.
But it also like in that episode, which was hilarious.
What was it called?
That episode?
The Elysian Kingdom?
Yeah.
The ending, which was incredibly emotional, really impacted
because of all the comedy before, it almost sort of relaxes you
and then punches you in the face.
Well, that's exactly what this does, isn't it?
It did it with all those digs at the Star Trek movies at the
beginning.
And then at the end when it gets very intense, when they're
fighting, when they're revealing things about the characters
you're sort of off guard.
Yeah, it's clever.
Yeah, I think it is.
I think it's really good and I'm happy that we have it.
I feel as if you're turning me to Kurtzman Trek, you know, slowly
for surely, with this podcast.
I was very resistant at the beginning, wasn't I?
Yeah, we have to watch an episode of Discovery at some point.
That'll cure you.
The last one we watched, that was very dull, wouldn't it?
Yeah, it wasn't very worthy.
No, I can't wait till we do low.
Thanks again.
Unfortunately, we are in this position where there's so much 90s
straight.
We've just gotta do more of that than anything else.
And to be fair, that is our 1st love.
That's where we came from.
That's what I get most excited.
Well, usually because it's absolutely 50-50 as to whether it's
going to be reasonable or just terrible.
And either way, we're going to have fun. absolutely.
All right, it's the end of the episode and it is time for us to
find out what we're going to be talking about next.
This one was my choice, heavily influenced by you, I have to say.
But it's your turn now.
So tell us which series are we going to be choosing from?
Heavily influenced by me.
What are you talking about?
I rolled it last time and then it was crisis and then you said, yes
no, we're just doing that because that was an episode that you
really like.
I think I had said to you as well, I was going to choose lower
decks.
Yeah, yeah.
I thought it was me last week.
I don't know.
I just love...
I love pressing the button. why.
So I'm going to do it right now.
Oh, I've put in every show again because I was just like, I like
bouncing around the franchise like this.
Okay.
Just let me remind people at home that all they need to do is go
to untitled Star Trek project.com slash randomiser and they too
can experience the simple joy of pressing the button.
Have you pressed the button?
Oh, have press the button?
I don't know if we could do this one, no.
Your random Star Trek Voyager episode.
We have done quite a bit of voyager lately, is season two, episode
15.
Threshold.
You're joking.
We're doing it.
Obviously we're doing it.
Yeah, it's there.
We're doing it.
We're definitely doing it.
How can we roll that and then not do it?
You've got to be kidding me.
It's the scene. worst hour of television in human history.
It's got so much of the worst Robert in it.
It's so much worse, Robert.
It's absolutely unentertaining.
It's actively appallingly repellent to watch.
Repellent.
It's just gross.
It's awful.
There's no not a scintiller of entertainment to be had.
It's utterly dreadful. makeup.
The ending that makes no sense for whatsoever.
How do you de- evolve somebody from a lizard back to...
Oh my god.
Yeah.
No, but that's, you know, Beverly Crusher has turned Barkley from
being a spider.
Oh, no, what does he use a spider?
Yeah, he is. is still reasonably Barclay shaped.
The lizard.
I could fit in my hands.
No, they're big.
They're big. anyway, we have to do it.
You can't roll that and then not do it.
I'm sorry, but that's a rule.
We're going back to Voyager again.
Jesus Christ.
That's more time than I like to spend with Robert Duncan McNeil
though.
Much more time.
Yeah.
Oh, it's all his daddy issues in there as well.
That's the worst thing about it.
I've got lots to say already and I haven't even rewatched it.
Ted Barry, even though we've already seem to have done that in the
next generation.
Oh, my God.
All right.
Well, we can't promise that we'll be as positive as we were about
this week's episode.
No.
I think we can promise you that we won't be.
An entertaining ride of the levels of sub-rosa.
Yeah, yeah.
This is much worse than sub Rosa.
You've been listening to entitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford
and Nathan Bottomley, where online at untitled Star Trek Project
com, where you can find subscription links and links to our social
media accounts.
Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceran, and the theme was
composed by Cameron Lamb.
This episode was recorded on the 7th of November 2023 and released
on the 10th of November.
We'll see you next time for Star Trek Voyager Threshold.
I don't believe it.
It's aw.
But remember what was the one where I said, have you rolled, like
have you, like, what was the previous shit one?
It was Subway, was it?
subr?
Yeah, that was the one where I'd say, have you rolled sub rosa?
And you went, yes, it's sub Rosa.
Wow.
There we are.
It's like the 3rd time in a row or something that we've done the
1st one that we've rolled as well.
Did we?
Yeah, no, I think it is.
Definitely last week's.
And definitely Muse.
Yeah, Muse. was our 1st pick as well.
Yeah.
Although then we will have the rest forager for a bit.
We've done like five, I think, in the last 10.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Oh my god.
Ball kids.
Yeah.
Oh, and actually, this gives us a chance to say that, you know
even though we like series 2.
Um, It can still make some huge mistakes.
I didn't realise it was series too.
So series 2 has shitty high concept, things like twisted and
stuff.
Is that series 2?
So it's all the 1st half of series 2?
This just edges into the 2nd half of series 2.
You've just had the brilliant one where the case will not attack
you know, where the shuttle goes into the ship.
Like a, like a knife in our belly.
That, yeah, that episode.
Um, and then you get Resistance, which is the Joel Gray episode
down on the planet, which is really great.
It's a great Kate episode.
Then you get this.
And then you get Death Wish, I think, Death Wish.
So we have done in the last 10.
So not including this one, the ones that are up on the on the
website as we record, collective, assignment Earth, if memory
serves, rocks and shoals, the price, then we need 2 for one
equinox and equinox part two.
The Galileo 7 resolutions, Keshara, and Muse.
So there is 5 voyages.
So this is a sick Voyager.
Yeah, in fact, we've done Muse Keshara resolution, so we will have
done 3 voyages out of the last four.
But Muse and Resolutions were both good.
Yeah, it's a nice mix, isn't it?
Your equinox where we, there was a ton of contention.
Collective that was just so boring.
Boring.
This is actively repellent.
Like, it's so awesome. for you to go to the town on the movie.
Oh my god, I hate it so much.
Have you watched it recently?
In the last couple of years, I have, yeah.
I haven't seen it for probably a decade this one.
I was just shocked by how lacking in entertainment value it was.
Like, there were just no scenes at all where I, and like, like
obviously the worst Robert is the worst Robert for a reason, he's
terrible.
But like when he's like...
Oh, he's got...
And he's going, he's just going sort of, no.
And daddy, he's having, he's talking about his father and stuff
which is just like, like, and what's it about?
Like, I don't even know what it's about.
You know, and like, like, it's just not about anything.
You know, like, I think this is this is bragger doing that.
You know how he said he wanted to do it and make it sort of a bit
ex-file, he's a bit gross.
I think this is like his last ditch attempt to do something like
that.
Yeah, but it's so...
And it's a serialised show where he's going to be fine next week
and thankfully we'll never speak of it again until Lower Decks
comes along.