Hey, Joe. Hi.
So, we are heading back to Voyager this week, and we're, I, is it
like episode 22 or something of series... precisely episode 22 of
series six.
That's it.
I was looking at it earlier, and it's called Muse, not the Muse.
I had a little moment of anxiety about that, but that's a deep
space 9 episode with Jake, isn't it?
Oh, with the writer that's sucking all the creative juices out of
his brain.
Jake.
That's right.
Yeah.
This episode, I think, was really delightful.
Like I had a lot of fun.
I think there's a central guest performance, which is great, the
main guest character is just terribly sweet.
Your suite is more sexy.
Awful, it was sexy as hell.
Yeah, both, I think.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But he's sort of adorable.
He's sort of puppy-ish.
Also, I think it's doing the same sort of thing that Dharmok is
doing.
And I'm not saying this is anywhere near as good as Darmok, but
it's placing Star Trek in a literary tradition and in this case
it's ancient Greek drama.
You know a little something about that, don't you?
I do a little bit.
I think that the interesting thing about Voyager is, of course
that it's a story about homecoming, and for the ancient Greeks
there were 2 great poems, there's the Iliad, which is a series of
events that happened in the last year of the Trojan War.
And then there's the Odyssey, which is the big homecoming where
Odysseus spends 10 years trying to get home after that war is
finished and he's on a boat and he undergoes all sorts of
adventures and stuff.
And this is not the last time that that way of understanding
Voyager will crop up because I think workforce is that in series
7?
Yeah.
I think that 2 parter is very much based on the idea of the lotus
eaters and stuff like that.
And so here we have a culture that understands Voyager's journey
but understands it as a journey home by sea and is playing it
out.
And what we get by having this played out in the theatrical
tradition that's, you know, 25000 years old and is very familiar, I
think, we get to look at what Star Trek does and what it's for.
And I think it's done very well.
In an episode that's otherwise, you know, recently run of the mill
but definitely agreeable.
As I was watching scenes that we typically see on Voyager, play on
the stage.
I have to say, I was enjoying them far more in this version than I
was in the usual.
And then when I sent you a message because at the beginning of act
2, we then chipped back to Voyager and I was like, wow, this is a
far less fun version of what I was watching on the stage.
Yeah.
It's not as well lit.
It's certainly not as melodramatic, you know?
It costumes are not as good.
There's a real immediacy about seeing it on the stage, you know?
Yeah.
In fact, what the episode does, which I think is just delightful
is a fairly boring opening scene where Bilana and Harry are on
board the Delta Flyer and they're in trouble and they're going to
crash. can just see it for real.
You can absolutely see how it would work, but it's being played
out on this stage by this group of back.
She's got a mask up and she goes, no, Harry.
I won't leave you to die.
You know, in reality, it would be Roxanne Dawson going, come on
Harry, we're going to get out of this.
No, I like I actually reckon that that dialogue would have
absolutely been what we would have had to put up with in the
actual Voyager episode.
And so that stuff is kind of fun.
But then I think we land in a place which is about what Star
Trek's for.
And, you know, in ancient Greece, I can think of a few examples of
comedies in particular, that are making political points that are
making contemporary political points and even points about war and
peace.
There's a play by Aristophanes called Peace.
And so here we have this play about Voyager being used to stop a
war and by doing that, we restate what Star Trek is for, that Star
Trek isn't for romance.
It isn't for cheap tropes.
It has a deeper purpose, and it often doesn't get there, but it's
the thing that I love about Star Trek, and that's the idea.
Space it strong enough in this episode, though.
Yeah, I think it, I really think it is because I think that Callis
who is our poet, absolutely is determined to put a stop to a war
through drama.
He wants to create a play that stops a war.
And the play that he creates is a Voyager episode, but it's a
Voyager episode where 2 enemies, the Queen of the Borg and Janeway
have a speech.
They just speech at each other about how useless fighting is and
then they kind of make up.
And then we have the sort of hilarious ending as well.
And that's being done in front of someone who's contemplating
going to war and decides not to.
And that's kind of what Star Trek is for, I think.
Is Kelly's Jean Robinbury then?
No, because he's pretty and not sleazy, I think.
But within this analogy of creating something that is supposed to
have an impact.
Kind of, but I also think that, you know, that it's reasonable for
all of the creative people who work together on Star Trek on
riding Star Trek.
You know, Roddenbury's one person, but dozens and 100s of people
have worked on Star Trek throughout the years.
And so I don't think careless is Roddenbury as such, but it is, he
grasps what Star Trek can do after a few sort of comedy false
starts as well.
What I took away from this as well is this is another episode of
Voyager, which is offering an alternative take on Voyager
characters, which we do maybe once a year on Voyager.
It happens in that wonderful episode Living Witness, where they're
all seen as evil do-gooders going around the galaxy.
We get an alternative timeline in Year of Hell.
We get one in time and timeless as well and things like that.
Every time Voyager does this, you know, we see a peak of how these
might be, because I'll tell you what, the twist reveal that 79 is
in fact, the queen of the Borg, Arthur was fabulous.
Pretty great.
It is really good.
You know, why is all these alternative versions more exciting than
the show we watch week in week out?
Like, what's happening here?
Why are you constantly allowing us to look at a version of Voyager
that is more engaging to experience?
Yeah.
Well, even within this episode, I think the scenes on board
Voyager are generally boring and disposable.
So dull.
And some of them seem to be there just to ensure that like Ethan
Phillips gets his paycheque this week.
I can't see what most of those are for except to just get our
leads some screen time.
How can we possibly get a joke out of this?
I know, Chevac falls asleep on the bridge.
I did actually think that was a bit funny.
Oh, great, you did.
The worst thing was right, is we were seeing, you know, these
wonderful scenes playing out on the stage.
And then we cut straight to Voyager and it's Robert Duncan McNeil
going, I can't believe we're giving up the search captain.
I was like, oh, God.
Yeah, he can't even just remind me.
It reminds me bad.
This is the shit we normally have to put up with on this show, you
know?
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, but all the stuff down on the planet and all of the stuff
with Balana, because of course Roxanne is really great and
reliably great, is really good.
Like I said to you last week, they finally remembered.
They have a secret weapon in the cast, which is not Sam Dawson, who
they've effectively ignored for 2 years while 7 of lines, you know
had the limelight on her, and she got Barge of the Dead at the
beginning of the season and news at the end of the season.
And I know we had some issues with lineage in series 7, but they
it wasn't Roxanne Dawson's fault.
No, not at all. acquitted herself brilliantly.
And it's it's them remembering.
Oh, yeah, remember that sort of cast of women that we had?
there's a 3rd one in there as well. she's pretty great.
And her relationship with, is it Kelly?
Kelly?
Kellis, yeah.
Kellis.
Oh, Kelly was from the siege of AR 548, wasn't he?
It's a K name.
It's a space name.
It's really sweet.
I was properly invested in that relationship.
Yeah.
So I just wanted to say one thing before we go in.
But Kelly Waymeyer, who plays Kellis's girlfriend. was great as
well.
Yeah, so we've actually talked about her on the entitled Star Trek
project before, because she is in the episode, the Enterprise
episode Strange New World, where she plays Cutler, and she looks
like she's going to be a semi-regular, and she goes down to the
planet as part of the away team, and she's quite good.
She gets a scene on board the ship looking out the windows at the
new planet that they're going to explore.
Is she the one that's trying to impress Tapol?
Yes, that's right.
That's right.
But that actress died very soon afterwards, so died terribly young
and so the character never went beyond the one episode.
And I just sort of thought, you know, she's really great in this
and I thought it was worth mentioning.
I thought the fact that she has to play sort of the jealous, the
jealous non-girlfriend, isn't it?
She's got this, in her ed, she's got a relationship with the poet
but I don't think it's actually happening.
The 2nd Belana Torres turns up.
She, you know, she exits stage left with a harumph, but I did love
the scene where she came and found Torres.
And she was like, I was expecting to find a love nest.
And she goes, what a nest it is.
She, she, she didn't, she had no more than about 10 or 15 lines, I
think, but she acquitted herself really well.
Yeah, yeah, I agree.
All right.
What do you think?
Should we go in?
Yes, I mean, we're talking positively about Voyager after talking
positively about Enterprise.
We on a railway.
Yeah, I know. crazy.
All right, I'll count it in.
Five, four, three, two, one, and we're off.
Here we go.
Yeah, so this is absolutely the opening scene that we would have
had in a normal episode.
So this speech from the chorus, so we have a chorus of 3 actors, is
delivering Captain Janeway's voiceover over the kind of model shot
of the Delta Flyer going through space.
In search of dilithium.
So one of the things that I actually quite like too, is something
that's more of a feature of Epic, more of a feature of the Iliad
and the Odyssey, which is that all of the characters have very
formulaic names, like ways of describing them.
So he's young, Harry Kim, and she is headstrong Balana Taurus, and
sometimes she's half Klingon, half human Balana Taurus.
Look at her mask.
So this is Kelly Waymire playing Belana, is it, in this scene?
That's right.
And the mask has the forehead ridges that that she has later when
we see a 7 mask, it will have her implant.
You know, the masks are really great. is extraordinary.
We are just on the stock colony set number 52 here.
But I do think it's extremely well lit this.
It's very pleasing on the eye, all of these scenes.
I agree.
And it does...
I think it gets an Emmy nomination for costumes and you can kind
of see why all of them are really great.
Those aliens, you know, they look very like the aliens from
warlord with those weird sort of nose ridges.
I think we might be reusing old makeups here.
I wonder whether it might have been better to just do without
that.
I know it's a Star Trek thing and we have to have it, but I think
it is a bit of a shame.
It's not too intrusive, but, you know, like whatever.
I want to see more of these Voyager Eternals, Nathan.
Yeah.
So he's a bit of a Voyager fan and we know that we, it's one week
till the next episode.
Like he says, no, there's going to be a new episode in one week.
You don't get 2 weeks or 3 weeks.
The story will continue.
It would have been more savage if it'd have gone, oh, this is all
a bit boring, isn't it?
Can't you spice it up a bit?
This techno bubble is interminable.
And that thing too, where he says, have you noticed how thin I
perform, my performers are getting, and then gets, because there
is a thing about money, like having to create this stuff for
money?
Um, and there's a great line from careless a bit later on.
And then, of course, we have the war and the war is being, uh, see
look, look.
See, they're gonna fuck.
And she, he says, no, no, I have to go and write my play, and then
he sneaks off to where B'Elana is in the Delta flyer.
So I don't think that it is.
She's just his pretend girlfriend.
I think that she has a right to be jealous, I think.
But the thing, not Eileen just too earlier, that they didn't do in
this, and that was to have a romance between Torres and Kellis
which they could have done.
Yeah, that would have been.
But the episode itself rules that out says that's a dumb idea.
I love this too, because I had seen this before and I had really
strong memories of it, but I didn't quite know how it worked.
And so how is after she's written, sorry, after he's written that
scene, how come she doesn't know who he is?
It's a very strange thing and the episode sells it.
Um, because he's been listening to the, you know, he's he's heard
all of the recordings and stuff of their interactions and that
works really well.
But I think that's a really strong lead into the opening credits
the kind of that self-conflict.
He's got her tied up.
What sort of episode is this going to be?
And I think it misleads us a little bit.
Oh, your face lit up, used to that.
That's a word for that.
I almost could have done with knock, I'm at Voyager, at all in
this.
Yep, set it down on a planet amongst these people.
I was very impressed by there, by that tilted angle shot as he
came into the shuttlecraft to suggest that the whole thing's on a
on a, on the walk.
But I mean, the great thing about it too is like that set is full
of candles.
Like it's beautiful. doesn't it look more atmospheric than usual.
It's very, like, so it's properly, properly crashed and...
We've said this a couple of times recently where they've had
candles in sets.
Yeah.
And we're like, why don't we, why are we always doing this?
Yeah, why don't we light the shuttles with candles normally?
Then it's the same thing you say about when they've got practical
lightning coming in through the windows.
Yeah.
It's like, that's so effective.
Why don't we do that every week?
Yeah, well, I think that looked great.
But it also, it sells the passage of time.
You know, she's been there for a while.
He's been coming there and bringing candles.
You know, like he has clearly been in and out of the place for a
while.
And so that's why it's a little bit surprising that she doesn't
know who he is, that Bellana's sort of shocked to see him.
He's there listening to all the logs going, how on earth can I
turn all of this into a play?
But I mean, you know, like the Voyager Riders do it every week.
Just about.
I don't know if you recall, we did the Borg children episode from
this episode.
Sometimes they fail miserably.
So, like this guy is called Joseph Will.
I think he is absolutely stunning.
Like, he's a good looking man.
He's a pretty young man, but he's very sweet.
Like, he's really sweet.
I could have really taken my eyes off him for out the entire
episode.
He says, uh, he's interviewed um, as saying that these were like
this was an unusually long days shooting.
So they were doing sort of 15, 16 nowadays, which he wasn't used
to it at that point in his career.
I don't think any other show was working like Star Trek at this
point where you basically work 24 hours a day and working
alongside Roxanne Dawson, who was very charitable and very kind to
him.
And basically she made the entire experience of shooting this
episode tolerable.
Because they had so much time together.
Yeah, yeah.
But look, you know, look, we've talked about one episode
relationships between people before and how they could bomb
spectacularly.
This is how you do it.
This is really good, isn't it?
This is so great.
So he's been, he's been bleeding her because she's had a fever, and
so that's why she has cuts on her arm.
So it all looked a little bit worse than it actually turns out to
be.
And now, of course, she gets to show him her powers is an eternal
which is really great.
I like the, I like how they sort of don't trust each other
initially.
And he obviously wants something from her.
Yeah, I sent you the line, didn't I?
Where she goes, oh, I'm going to have to sing for my supper, aren't
I?
And he goes, well, don't we all?
I thought that was the line that was really...
There's a bit of back and forth between the 2 of them where I was
like, they're not just like, okay, fine, you're injured in this
shuttlecraft.
Let's be mates.
It takes a little while to ease into them being comfortable with
each other.
I mean, the thing that's brilliant about the thing for our supper
line is that it's being written by someone who has to do that as
well, that everyone in, you know, in a creative field has to sing
for their supper.
Do you know what I was getting strong vibes from him?
It was fines from Shakespeare in love.
That same sort of that same sort of doe-eyed creative who's being
inspired in unusual directions.
I was getting that from him.
One of the things that I like it.
Uh, you know, I started talking a little bit about the stereotype
to adjectives that get used to describe the characters.
I do think that repeated thing about Shining Voyage are far from
home... from the gleaming cities of Earth.
Like, I think that's lovely.
Like, I don't think it's like great poetry or anything like that
but there's something very sweet about that.
And then they turn it at the end, in a way that I think is really
clever and what the episode's about.
You will never reach the gleaming city.
No, say 7 of nine.
No, the very last scene, the very last line that Keller says, I
think is really beautiful.
I do love the poll.
The away...
That's the name of the play.
What are you talking about?
That's the subtitle for most episodes.
I love how quickly he agrees as well.
Like he says why he's tied her up, that he needs to make sure she
doesn't go away because she's an eternal and he needs more
information from her.
And he, it's, it's very quick, isn't it?
Like, he does it quite soon, and he doesn't do it in response to
any sort of threat.
He kind of does it because he realises it's a bit of a deep move
you know, to tie her up.
I know the confidence in this before.
Yeah, yeah.
There's just no sort of TV actor of the week coming into a show
with regulars about him at all.
This is my show this week.
This is my planet, you know?
This, look at this.
And he just does it immediately. cut me free and I'll tell you.
Okay?
You know, like, yes, yes, yeah. and and you won't leave me and she
doesn't give him any reassurance.
She just says cut me free and he does it anyway.
I think that's really nice.
That interaction is not at all what you would necessarily expect.
Lest we not forget that this is one of the oldest tropes in the
book, the crash shuttlecraft on the planet.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
He's a little bit scared of her there as well. backed away a bit
you know?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, but not not enough that he doesn't come back and
doesn't try.
I mean, it's Roxanne Dawson.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Oh, here we go.
We're in a forest glade.
That's where the shuttlecrafts land.
It's not at all a painted backdrop.
Well, I think that painted backdrop looks pretty great.
And again, we have pretty good lighting in through the windows as
well, and you can see the trees through the windows.
It's got a bit of perspective.
Exactly right.
It doesn't look at all like the Delta Flyer set does normally, and
partly because it does seem to be on an angle, but also because
the lighting is different.
And look, turn the fucking lights down here.
Oh, he said we have to support each other.
We poets.
And then she says, I'm an engineer. of that is so nice.
I fix things from the looks of it, it looks like you're not doing
so well.
And then she says, are you a poet or a critic?
It's, that's, that's cute.
Can I ask you a question?
Because this relationship is absolutely delightful to watch.
So why are the relationships between the Voyager crew?
Not this delightful to watch.
Well, I think part of the that bantry stuff is just colour and
passing the time and isn't doing anything.
So none of that dialogue is doing anything.
And there's a little bit too much date rape, you know, not date
rape, but like the delaying stuff just makes me cringe every time
I hear it. so gross.
No, I don't think they haven't forgotten about the Delaney sisters
come over.
No, they're going to mention here.
They get a mention in this episode.
She goes, the caretaker, an eternal.
Yeah But it is an eternal.
Like even from that point of view, the caretaker's an eternal.
And she starts to find a way of speaking to him about her
adventures that he can understand.
Are you in love with Tom Paris?
She shuts it down immediately.
In fact, the more they talk about the caretaker, the episode.
I think, yeah, actually, that would make a brilliant stage play
you know, some big ideas there.
Yeah.
Oh, where are we?
Are we going into the back?
Are we going into the back with candles?
It's so...
Yeah.
Whoever knew, just turning the fucking lights down could make
these sets atmospheric.
Yes, exactly.
And even this stuff is quite good.
Like, I love the details of how she's trying to go to go about
fixing it and stuff.
She has definitely got that that Lee Arburton engineer ability.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Just make look play with the technology and saying those dreadful
lines.
Oh, so she's trying to get him to get some dilithium, which was
why we were here.
And it's called, what's it called?
Something.
Oh, something tears.
I can't remember.
But, uh, I just missed that bit of dialogue, but uh, he knows
about dilithium.
And again, here too, where she doesn't kind of take any shit and
just says, you're going to go and get the dilithium for me, you
know, whether you want to or not.
And he's reluctant, but she doesn't sort of take any of it.
But all of this stuff.
This conversation is super important, exposition, without really
sounding like it.
He thinks that if the fella captures B'Elana, then he'll utilise
her to fight.
So now we find out about... exactly the reverse of what he's
trying to do with the play.
Yeah, that's right.
We'll find out about wars.
We find out about what the autarch or the, you know, that guy, the
patron, we find out about him as well.
And it's done fairly economically in a scene that's not boring.
And the scene's not boring because you've got 2 really good
actors.
All of whom are doing things with the dialogue.
Look at his reaction. lest we not forget.
Why am I saying lest we not forget?
Is it because we're in a theatric?
That we have heard many a backstory and exposition in Star Trek.
Yeah, that's been hell.
Look at this too.
It's raining?
It raining outside?
I love the lighting here.
Yeah, there's also the pattern on her face.
Yeah, because the water's coming.
He's wet, yeah.
So I didn't think he could possibly look any sexy, but here we
are.
Look at her.
Look how excited she is.
It's beautiful.
I mean, she is so terrific.
How...
The worst thing about Voyager is the incredible cast that they
assemble and then waste, you know, it's so bad.
Or you couldn't be.
I mean, and, you know, they do spotlight a couple of them a lot
but...
Oh, here we go. with the worst Robert and the best, Robert.
And we are in a terrible scene that clearly exists just because
everyone contractually has to appear in every episode.
This scene is super boring.
The media rubber is present as well.
Yeah, yeah, but he just gets a single line.
Yeah, it's really boring.
You talk about wasting characters.
Kate Mul bruising the scene.
How could you not give us a fabric?
But look, the worst Robert can't even stand convincingly.
Look at him there.
Like, it's like, it's just standing, Bob, just learn how to do it
so bad.
After all that amazing lighting.
We're adding the Delta Flyer, a minute. back on those boring
voyages.
You know, they've always done the, you know, the colony set, like
the lighting, you know, that sunny lighting they've been able to
do since kind of late next gen, I think is pretty good.
Oh my god.
They're doing the sequence between 7 and Harry Kim in revulsion in
series 4.
And he's going, get closer to him, all right?
Get closer to him.
So this is what I really like as well, because this is a
commentary on the kind of characters that we have. on Voyager.
So on next gen and original trek.
There were one or 2 aliens among the regular cast, but basically
most people are human.
Here, Voyager has gone quite a long way away from that.
And we have quite a few alien characters.
And so we get this scene here about how the actor, so about how
Kelly Waymeyer's character can't really understand how 7 of 9
behaves and so can't convey that convincingly.
And then you actually get that the boy, the younger man as well
who complains about having to play Tuvok?
That's the better scene of the two.
Yeah, where he's going, who doesn't have emotions?
That doesn't make any sense.
They're all going to think I'm a terrible actor.
Because they're not cheap anyway.
It's really good, isn't it?
And but what it does.
Is it actually finds the truth of those?
Because all of those dumb space things are just an analogy for
people that we know.
And, you know, she's able to explain the Borg in terms of just
people in in ships, you know, she's able to explain me easily
comprehensible ways.
And I think what they say about Tuvok is incredible and we'll get
there.
But as well, I think it's also a comment on just how good Jerry
Ryan and Tim Russ are, because they're saddled with these
emotionless characters, and they toy with my emotions.
This show at his best is those 2 characters that they really get
under my skin.
What they managed to do with a lack of emotion is extraordinary.
So I like this too.
Like, she thought that it was solved if he got her the dilithium.
That hasn't worked.
Now we have to do the next thing.
And the next thing is a pretty remarkably complicated thing.
It's like bronze of a particular alloy with gold on one side.
Um, I can't get hold of Goldie says.
Well, she goes, you're going into debt then, aren't you?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Like, she doesn't take any shit.
So again, this is another scene that I think is a complete waste.
Like, what, the Neelix 2 volt one.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I agree.
It's kind of pointless.
It's just showing that they're still looking for them.
That it.
But I do like the chemistry between these 2 action.
Oh, no, I do too.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I think, you know, again, because people hate Neelix, they
really, really underestimate Ethan Phillips, who is brilliant.
And Tim Ross is great too.
In the late seasons, they've veered away from that sort of sitcom
conflict that they had in the early seasons.
Nedix was just pushing too much to a point where now they just
have a mutual respect for each other and it's all quite
underplayed. and that's really nice to watch.
You see, I think the problem here is that they leave something on
the table, and they're nearly there, but they don't quite get it
because why is 2 Vox staying up all night?
We've been up for sleeping for days.
Why is he not sleeping for days because... not logical, Nathan.
Yeah.
And and we get so we get this scene.
Is this the scene where he's, there's Tuvok.
Yeah, we're doing the same thing.
Yeah, here's Tuvok now, thinking about Harry Kim being missing and
showing no emotion, and we get, and we complained about this.
I complained about this in, um, uh, resolutions?
Yeah, in resolutions. where they're depicting Tuvokas having no
emotions. depicting him as having no emotions, and he even says
yeah, no, I can't fail, you know.
And Kess says, think about the people who really feel this more
strongly than you do.
And like that boy can't believe, just can't believe that, that no
one would have emotions in this thing.
And he says, Kelly...
I realise for me, if you're... breaking silently and in more pain
than the rest of us can possibly understand.
And that scene that we just saw with Ethan and Tim Ross could have
done a better job of conveying that.
Well, but the fact that one scene follows the other, you think
that they would be doing this.
In the script, it's clearly the intention of the script, but no
one quite gets there.
Um, and, and, later on, when Tuvok discovers that they've been
found, we don't quite get the emphasis on his emotional reaction
to that on him.
Oh, he's asleep.
No, no, no, no, no.
No, there is a scene here, but I mean, the reason he's asleep is
because he cares about them and because, you know, Harry is a
young man, just like the Tuvok that we saw down on the planet
being acted was.
And so I think that it leaves stuff on the table.
The sad truth of it is the very poetic way he just described
Tuvok.
Yeah, is what we should be doing every time the show goes there
and we very rarely do.
Well, they'd forgotten it.
They just didn't seem to know that that's what Vulcans were like
in resolution and it wrecked that part of the story.
Like it, it, you know, it wasted Tim Ross.
It was bad.
I felt like with the original series and Nemoy, that he was always
sort of working on that level, the way he just described just that
Kenneth.
So this is careless now explaining his ambition for the play, and
he thinks that the right sort of play could be written in such a
way to stop a war.
And she, she doesn't believe it.
She says that, you know.
It's not such a romantic idea, is it?
I'm sure there is some Preston with that.
Yeah, well, they've certainly been plays that have commented on
wars and certainly throughout the history of literature.
There have been plenty of of, of, you know, novels and plays and
works of art that have talked about the horrors of war and have
reminded us about them.
Transmitting an idea of the right idea hits the right person
making differences.
But that's the moment where this very definitely becomes this is
about Star Trek.
So careless is creating a voyage or episode in order to stop a war
in order to express the idea that, um, negotiation and cooperation
and reaching out are possibilities.
Sorry, I was very distracted by this palty face there.
It just saw B'lana.
Yeah, poor Kelly.
She's not happy at all.
Yeah, and she's right, because, like, they were clearly, they do
clearly have a relationship and he's been ignoring her because
he's so obsessed with B'lana, and she assumes that it's a sexual
relationship, but she is, of course, just his muse, you know
firing his creative juices, not his sexual ones.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
And so I love this too.
So where's the mistaken identity, the discovery, the reversals.
Oh, yeah.
So Aristotle, in the poetics, you know, invents a way of
criticising, of being critical, not of saying they're bad, but of
a critiquing works of literature and identifying tropes like those
right?
And so that's a Greek idea.
And what I like a lot is this old man comes in and says, yes, the
tropes, right?
But that's lazy, you're lazily kind of, um, relying on those
tropes when what we want is the truth of the story.
The story has to be about people and not just about plot twists
essentially.
How the fuck can they have the nerve in a Voyager episode to
suggest that relying on tropes is lazy.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's what this, that's this shows bloody raison, that's what
they do.
Well, I think this show, I think this episode does critique itself
a bit too.
Like, I do think it is critiquing itself.
I was, I wrote you, no.
I said, I was waiting for a reversal though.
When they brought that up, I was waiting for a big character
reversal, a big shock, and I suppose that happens within the play
but it doesn't really happen within the episode.
Well, I like, oh, so this is Chakotay and Janeway.
And the camera just moves away just before acting, you know, like
play the tour.
There you go.
There's that kiss you want to.
That I want to.
Exactly And this episode actually critiques that and says, you
know, that's not really what we do on Star Trek necessarily, that's
not what Star Trek's about.
Precisely what we were critiquing here.
Yeah, yeah.
And then and then...
And then we cut to a scene between Jane Wench.
So they keep doing this, aren't they?
What's on the stage and what's happening on Voyager.
But what's happening on what's the gorge is boring.
It's so much more boring than what's going on.
Could we not have Kelly's just come on board the writing team for
a bit?
There is one thing that I like a lot about this scene though
is...
He says, like, he says that they would have ejected 10 days ago
and that Harry wouldn't have survived 10 days in an escape pod, and
then you just get that look on Kate's face, that look of distress
just for a moment.
And she doesn't even tell him to keep searching or anything like
that.
She just says, like they might have both made it, and she just
says, good night, Commander.
It's absolutely clear what she wants him to do.
And I thought that was pretty good.
And there's a little, another just, you know, she's always doing
something, isn't she?
Gosh, she's good.
Just always good.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I can't even contemplate having to tell his mother.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
What's this?
You didn't make him a lieutenant and you killed him.
So this is a kind of a bit of a trope, which is that we go to, we
go on the stage and we haven't had time to write an ending and so
the ending that we get just kind of happens.
Look at the lighting.
Look at that lighting.
So good. isn't it?
And so, you know, I said you did not.
I remembered the lighting before I rewatched the episode.
Tom Paris kissing 7 of nine.
And so his original idea is that if he depicts a lot of love in
the episode that will, you know, you can't, like love is the
opposite of war.
So we depict lots of love and lots of kissing, Harry kissing the
Delaney sisters.
Tom Paris, kissing 7 of nine, you know, all of that.
And then look at this, look at this, look at his explanation.
He says, this used to be a temple, and that table on the stage was
an altar stone, and then we stopped using it that way.
We stocked human sacrifice and we did plays and we don't know why
but something must have happened to cause that.
And he takes that as a sign that that there's a purpose to what
the plays are doing.
Do you know what I mean?
The plays have represent some kind of moral progress or
something.
Moral progress.
Yeah.
It's worth remembering.
There has been a couple of kisses.
In Star Trek as well.
So the interracial kiss between Kirk and Ahura, the same-sex kiss
between Dax and Lenara, which kicked up a storm at the time, but
were attempting to normalise those things as well.
You know, like, I think, like, he's, she's also saying, because
you know, Star Trek doesn't normally do romance.
That's not true because we've done lots and lots of romances, but
that's not what it's about.
Yeah, they're always terrible, except for resolution, which is
terrible as well, but for different reasons.
Um, so it's a thing that other shows do that Star Trek doesn't.
You know, it's not the main purpose of Star Trek, and so what is
the main purpose of Star Trek, other shows and other plays have
love in them.
So what's this for?
And so now she's continuing to explain her world to him.
It's great.
There's stuff about the Borg, isn't it?
The Borga incomprehensible to Lena, to his girlfriend.
She's explaining it in terms of, of, you know, in terms that he
can understand.
Yes.
I've just taken a look at who wrote this episode.
Who is it?
Go on, take a take a pump.
Is it Manoski?
It's Manosky.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
He goes one or 2 ways.
Weird science, and it usually bombs, or he tries to do something a
bit more formal.
He wrote The Thor as well.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Voyager, yeah.
So these sort of left field episodes, you know, as normally is, it
normally is Menosky.
And it's directed by Mike Vajar, who we last saw on the changing
face of evil.
And we were as similarly impressed with his direction and lighting
and all of that there too.
Yeah, so see, like that's his plan and I think that's beautiful.
That is actually really something.
And look at her smile.
Look at Roxanne Smile.
God, she's beautiful.
And she smells so rare.
She cares enough that she wants to stay at the end and see this
through as well.
Yeah, yeah.
It says a lot about her as a character.
But she can't.
You know, I still need an ending. wonderful.
And I like his cute summit.
I like his cute throat.
Oh well, you know, she dies on the way back to her home planet.
You wouldn't dare.
Look, like the relationship.
Like that on the page, that could be her being angry, but it's
absolutely not.
Like, their relationship is really...
I think that's it...
Yeah, yeah.
Even after she's gone, you know?
Is this the bit where Harry Kim turns up now?
What does Kelly tell her?
I was like, oh, no.
Oh, yeah, oh, I love that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I was expecting to find a love nest.
And so she threatens and I really quite...
I thought she was going to try and kill her.
So she just says don't turn up.
Does, doesn't she, and she says, I'll out you to the autarch, if
you turn up.
And what's even better is she makes good on that promise.
Yeah, yeah, in a moment where I sort of sat back and went, oh, God
what is going to happen here?
And the way that old guy comes in and goes, you know, she's
declared Blano Torres.
It's so great. makes the audience part of the play.
Yes.
So we go like it comes on another level and the play actually
starts being about the room that we're in.
And that is a thing that happens in Greek comedy. you know, like
they have lines that are directed at the audience and make fun of
the like location they're in.
Like that's a thing that they do.
Here's Harry.
And here's our reversal.
It's just like resolutions when Voyager came along at the end.
The 2nd line is, oh, no, someone's come to take us away from all
the fun.
But I actually quite like this.
I actually think he comes in and...
But the way they sort of hug each other and they both...
Because Roxanne is so excited to see him.
She completely sells it.
This is the reversal, isn't this the reversal?
She has no plan at this point.
She has no way of getting home.
Everything she's trying to fail.
But it's not a reversal in the episode's favour.
Oh, no, but there you go.
She even says that this is the ending of the episode I was looking
for.
That's the ending I was looking for.
Yeah.
So that's the ending of her episode.
I like this.
Now we haven't got a worry about her getting off the planet.
That's why so we can focus on this.
Yeah.
I love that show.
It's good, isn't it?
Yeah, I do.
I think... like, yes, I think it sells the sort of place that
we're in and it's it's a pretty shock.
You know, like it's not perfect, but it's pretty good.
I'll take that over some of the less sophisticated CGI landscapes
we had in early Enterprise.
Yeah, this is, I think this is like a lot of real world elements
that are assembled by a computer and stuff like that, I think.
Batman there.
That actor.
And the old guy.
He is a semi-regular on Stargate SG1.
Oh, I kept a straight in UC anyway.
He's very, he's very camping SG one, would you?
So are they just going to improvise the ending at this point?
No, he has an ending.
Like the guy...
It's just cobbled it together.
Yeah, yeah.
And it's not a good ending.
And so when things get spoiled.
I mean, B'lana gives him a good ending, I think.
Nathan, Voyager doesn't work on these sort of layers normally, does
it?
No.
No, it can.
And there are some very, very good high concept episodes of
Voyager.
We haven't really rolled that many of them.
Like you said to me, the when Kurtzman Trek had a chance to truly
celebrate Voyager.
That's what they celebrated. the mad high content episode, yeah.
Yeah.
No, but I think there are really properly genuinely good things
like distant origin or living witness.
But I do think there's a sophistication in the writing here that
we don't normally see.
And certainly we're not seeing in the tail end of season 6 where
Unimatrix 0 is Archifhanger.
It's heading here in just a few episodes after we get past Fury
which is also awful. banger of the fees, but you should have
treated 7 of 9 going, I am the queen of the ball.
That would have been great.
Gosh, there are some pretty young actors there.
Look at that.
You know what I love about these Greek tragedies on the stage is
how, you know, when she's saying that about being queen of the
ball.
She ain't talking to no one.
Just the audience. yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Well, that's the thing.
I mean, in like the sort of great tragedies, the sort of 5th
century Greek tragedies, there's only ever 3 actors in any scene
you never have anymore, and you might have a chorus leader who
might speak to those actors as well.
And there are long speeches.
You know, everything's, it's not naturalistic dialogue.
The speeches are long and their poetry and so on.
You know?
It's sort of a lost art.
I can remember many a classic Doctor Who villain talking to
themselves and declaring things evilly to camera.
We don't do it anymore.
I think Tim Russ sells that stupid comedy moment where he kind of
suddenly wakes up and says, as you were.
That's really sweet.
True box of Chakotay. going to bed.
Yeah, yeah.
And yeah.
It's all right, but you know, it's hardly high comedy.
No, no, no, but it's, it's, you know, it's not very Tuvok, which
is what makes it fun.
But I also like the...
Well, no, I kind of like the fact that he gets to be on the bridge
when it gets discovered.
And again, I think this is the scene where we could have sold the
a man with a heart that's breaking silently, you know, who feels
more than any of the rest of us.
And it, We get a close-up, but that's really it.
And I think that that needed to, you know, now that we've heard
what he's like, we should have seen that on the screen, I think.
I'm not sure it's there in the Ryan, though, and I'm not sure it's
there in the performance.
Well, except I think that foregrounding him and having him stay up
all night and having him be visibly concerned about the 2 of them
missing.
Do you know what I mean?
I think that's a deliberate writing choice, but I just don't think
anyone's kind of picked up the opportunity they had. tortured
under the surface emotion.
Well, there's no there's no doubt that Russ could do that, but
he's not really called upon to do it.
Yeah, he's just tired.
Do you know what I mean?
That's not that interesting.
The denouement of the play now.
Here we go.
Yeah, so we've got Janeway and 7 of 9 and delightfully each of
them just comes to the audience and explains, you know, their
motivations and who they are.
And, uh, 7 of nine.
And you do always say that there's no subtext in Voyager. pretty
much what we get you.
Yeah, yeah, that's right.
No, but she's actually telling the audience, you know, don't let
on.
I'm really the queen of the, uh, you know, like I'm, I'm, uh, I
know about the queen of the Borg.
See, this is nice too.
Just like normal interaction.
Like, she's excited.
She selling it.
This pretty boy comes on board.
He's clearly not paid to say anything.
He like comes in, gives her a piece of paper and then leaves
because we haven't paid for another speaking part at this point.
Do you remember?
Do you remember in collective, you know, the ball children
episode?
Yeah.
Do you remember that flat yellow lighting and those weird camera?
and those long shots and things like that.
It truly is a case of which director is.
Yeah, yeah. in the episode together, I think.
Because I'm just, I'm really struck by the visuals in this.
Yep.
So, without the inspiration, Bilato Torres will perish.
And look at her reaction.
Look at her reaction.
I actually think he's threatening to kill off Belana Torres.
I I think that Harry Overplays the why does it matter?
Like, who cares?
Do you know what I mean?
Like, I just think he overplays that because that makes him seem
like a dick?
because she cares and she's Roxanne Dawson and she's awesome and
you know, how dare he?
I think that's a bit of a plane.
Have you ever inspired anybody?
Yeah.
Harry King.
Look at you're asking.
He needs me or he's going to be the one that dies on stage.
She really cares about him.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Oh, tell the captain I'll be a little late.
It's just frozen the thing.
Well, she throws like her gun.
She does have gun.
God, Torres at her best.
She's great.
Yeah, yeah.
I think this is a bit of a shame.
I'll tell you why.
It's pretty minor, but look.
And so that older woman...
She's giving full-on cable.
She really is.
You don't believe that.
That's so great.
So she's Kathleen Garrett, I think.
You see the masks of the gods.
Yeah, yeah.
They're incredible.
Yep, yeah.
So I like these masks.
The actual masks are full face in, do you know what I mean?
But having them on sticks so that we can see the actors' faces, I
think, is the right choice.
It's that moulded on mould group because it really looks like it.
I don't know, but like the masks are really good.
And it's a little bit because, you know, the mask makers haven't
seen those characters.
Do you know what I mean?
They can only have sort of had them described.
And so it's for our benefit, I think.
So great, as well, because all this tension in this last scene now
where she exposes time.
This has all been set out by the episode.
None of it comes out of left field.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
She comes in, I knew you'd come, or you needed an ending.
Well, I told you not to come, she runs out on the stage.
Really, really great, isn't it?
We got, I remember, many a Star Trek episode.
That had a terrible ending.
But and he goes, he goes, I'm going to disappear on a phone, and
he stepped in and says, no, no, we can't afford to make her
visibly disappear, so it's going to happen far away on a snow
covered peak.
And she goes, no, no, no.
Like, he's an old hand.
He's absolutely aware of how to deal with this.
He knows what we can achieve on the stage.
All of that sort of thing is really fun.
Yes.
The lead actress in a fit of jealousy has branded her rival on
Eternal.
And the stupid Ortak is so impressed that he's in the play.
Do you know what I mean?
And he thinks that this is playing all along.
Oh, look, you had me going.
I almost believe you.
Oh, it's great.
All you got to do is pamper someone's ego a little.
Yeah, yeah.
But also it's just like that 4th wall thing.
They're suddenly breaking the 4th wall and involving the audience
in the drama.
He thinks he's very clever too.
And the fact that her goodbye is here, their goodbye is here on
the stage.
Voyager needs me.
Please stay.
Yes, you have all you need right here.
And she, look, isn't that beautiful?
There's your mask.
I've given you your inspiration.
I'm off.
Oh, look at him.
Look at him.
And it wasn't a sexual relationship in any way.
It's just...
When he says in a minute about how the Adventures of Belano Torres
will continue.
No, it went on right in those plays for the rest of his life.
And so I think the shame is that the stupid Voyager, um
transporter effect doesn't go up and she says one to ascend to the
heavens and then we get that dumb effect, you know, um, uh, which
is a bit of a shame.
Whereas the next generation one visibly looks like it's going up
when they're beaming them up.
All talking at the stage, what, there's special effects on this
one.
Yeah, well that's exactly it.
He's absolutely wowed by the special affairs.
It's all done with mirrors.
I think, you know?
And this.
So he just actually just gives him speed. passionate and the
gleaming cities of earth.
Where peace reigns.
Yeah, and hatred has her home.
Yeah.
Isn't that good?
A great final line.
You know, and it's like a great final scene, I think, as well.
Like the whole scene is great.
But I love the gleaming cities of earth.
Like that, more than Voyager normally does, makes me remember why
they're, you know, what they're here for.
They want to go home, and we so rarely hear about home, except in
the most abstract way.
Yeah, and the glee of the cities of earth.
Like the gleaming cities of earth.
Like, that's that's nice.
I think that's beautiful.
And then...
Remember when Voyager came in through those fireworks?
Yeah, we don't get it. so bad, that shitty shot of San Francisco
at the very end.
But, but also, you know, that Star Trek presents a world where
peace reigns and hatred has no home.
And of course it doesn't always do that.
And Voyager in particular doesn't like to do that very much.
And that's what I like about this.
This is Voyager, embracing what Star Trek is for in a way that it
so rarely does.
I like to think that she gave him all of the crew logs for future
inspiration.
And, you know, he started doing more plays, you know, Voyager and
the threshold mutation.
Yeah, yeah, the twisted corridors of death or something like
that.
Think of the plays he could have done with that.
I hate to say it, but Netflix has now jumped to the next episode.
I'm going to read you the one line synopsis here.
Hes returns to Voyager, angry, aged, and more powerful than ever.
She tears through the ship and then travels back in time to alter
her history.
So we're back on normal Voyager territory there.
Yeah, yeah, just the usual crap.
Just to prove that this sophisticated episode was just a one-off.
But it is something that Voyager can do.
And I thought it was really fun and agreeable, and that it
attempted to be about something and mostly succeeded.
Yeah, smart, but with a brilliant guest star in there as well, a
really sort of amiable relationship between the 2 of them, better
than usual execution as well.
And just the sort of smarts that I typically don't see in
Voyager.
Yeah.
So this is this is way above average.
Yeah, absolutely.
Of all the voyages we've done, sort of probably in the top 3 so
far.
Yeah, I think that's probably true.
All right, it's the end of the episode and it's time for us to
choose what we're going to be doing next time.
Muse was your excellent choice last week, Joe. Thank you.
We're on a roll now.
Keeping our role.
And so in order to ensure that we stay on a roll.
I'm going to pick the series of Star Trek with the highest hit
rate and that is Star Trek Lower Decks.
I kind of argue with that.
I've not seen a bad episode yet.
So much fun.
All right.
So Star Trek, lower decks, and I'm going to press the button.
So this is series one, episode nine.
It's crisis point.
So that is the episode where they have a film.
Do you remember the film where Mariner creates a film and she uses
it to kind of work out her problems with her mother?
It's really...
It's really pretty great.
And I think that's the episode where we actually find out, or it's
the episode after where we find out, or everyone else on the, in
the cast finds out that Mariner is Freeman's daughter, and it
makes fun of Star Trek movies and stuff.
Is this the one where Freeman comes in?
And there's just an extended sequence where they're basically
chasing...
And I just remember it being one incredible set piece after
another.
Oh, please let's do this one.
This is the one that sort of comes to mind when I think about
lower decks because it's the one that suggests that this isn't
just a bit of a laugh, but actually has rounded characters and
something to say about them.
Yeah, I really, really like it, and it has maybe the best joke
about, It has some great jokes about Star Trek movies, but in
particular, it has maybe the best joke about Star Trek movies that
anyone's ever made in it.
I really like it as well.
I think it's super fun.
But as well, that sort of relationship between child and mother
that sort of fractious relationship.
That's a relationship I have with my mother.
So as I was watching these series of spectacularly violent scenes
play out, I was going, oh, this is almost therapeutic watching
this.
It's really tapping into something very emotional and quite real.
And in what is considered to be, you know, the parody, cartoon
comedy, Star Trek show.
That's something pretty special.
I think the great thing about it is that it often does really very
very good Star Trek and the characters are all really great.
Like the 4 leads, the 4 leads, and also the bridge crew as well.
Like all of the characters are well drawn.
They're all really fun and funny.
They're super likeable.
They're great to hang out with.
I love Tandy and Rutherford.
I think this could be the only Star Trek show, you know, that if
imagine all the absurd plots were sort of pushed out of the window
and it was just hang time.
Just hang time.
It would still be great to watch because they're just so much fun
this for.
I could just watch them having extended dialogue scenes for 20
minutes and do a season of that. so fun.
All right, let's do that then.
Let's do it.
Yeah, amazing.
You've been listening to untitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford
and Nathan Bottomley.
We're online at Untitled Star Trek project.com, where you can find
subscription links and links to our social media accounts.
Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceron, and the theme was
composed by Cameron Lamb.
This episode was recorded on the 31st of October 2023, and
released on the 3rd of November.
We'll see you next time for Star Trek Lower Decks, Crisis Point.
And what do you think the other two are?
Counterpoint.
Yeah, counterpoint's pretty great.
And oh, oh, oh, god damn it, what's it called?
The series one one.
The Sesca one.
State of Flux.
Yeah.
That's so fun.
And you're a fool to follow her.
That's so great.
I love all of that.
See, back in the day, they did melodrama.
Yeah, yeah.
Why haven't we got any good Voyager?
It must be really like super rare.
Why have we got anything like this?
I think this is probably the best episode of Voyager we've had.
Counterpoint is very good as well.
And again, you know, a great guest actor and stuff like that.
And it State of Flux does some of the things that Counterpoint
does.
You know, the kind of they pull a swifty on the bad guy and we
don't realise that we think that...
There's so much, Kate.
She's so great in it.
Yeah, yeah.
And it's giving Kate the relationship with the with the great
guest actor too, the works. direct defeat how you're going to be
when we get bride of Chaotica and we see her as queen of the
spider people.
Yeah, I actually don't really like that all that much, but okay.
Well, I heard before.
I know, she's fabulous.
She's great.
I'm not sure that Captain Proton is for me.
Lower the lightning shields.
So we did have...
My spider ships want to come through.
We did have Captain, we did have what's his face, doctor.
What's he called?
Is he Dr. Chaotica?
Mr. Chaotica?
Yeah.
Oh, just Just chaotica, are they?
Yeah.
So he is in that episode.
He's in 2 VX in this year's lower decks.
Yeah, and Michael Sullivan.
I need to watch that.
Oh, do you know what?
So it finishes.
I was going to choose lower decks.
I thought it was me this week and I was going to choose lower
decks for us to watch.
Well, I could do that.
But it's yours.
It's all yours.
We haven't done 90 straight for a while.
We haven't done Christmas for quite a while, actually.
Yeah, that's what I mean.
We did that one episode of Picard, didn't we?
The Picard series 2 finale.
No, we've done something more recently than that, surely.
Happy?
Let's see.
You sure?
It's on the homepage.
What's the last hand?
We've done TSE.
Resolutions, Galileo 7, Equinox, the Price, Rocks and Shoals.
If memory serves, we did that not very good episode of series 2.
Oh, no wonder I forgot.
Yeah, yeah.
Assignment Earth, Collective, remember me.
So we have done more.
Well, you could just put in the last stand.
You could just put in all of...
Oh, I was going to say, all of Kurtzman Trek and see what we get.
We haven't done a lower decks for a while.
It might be fun to do a series four.
They're all in there, except for, yeah.
Yeah, let's do that.
All right.