WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-06-06 at 23:16:29

1
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Hey, Joe. Hi.

2
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So, we are having an unusual experience today, and that is watching an episode of Enterprise that both of us thought was pretty good.

3
00:00:34.740 --> 00:00:38.759
Yeah, I've got some sort of hyperbole for you straight off.

4
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What the hell is this?

5
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Character drama.

6
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Special effects, politicking.

7
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Like, where's this been for the last 4 years?

8
00:00:47.640 --> 00:00:55.500
Yeah, so I watched about the 1st 5 episodes of series 4 on a plane one time.

9
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I can't remember exactly.

10
00:00:57.719 --> 00:01:13.200
And I really liked it, and I think the reason is that it serialised not just in a sort of series of trilogies, but throughout the thing, and that seems to give it a bigger scope.

11
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Some things happen in this trilogy that are taken from the movies rather than from TV Star Trek, you know.

12
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And so it has that sort of scale.

13
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And that's really fun.

14
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I thought that that was really interesting.

15
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In the 1st 2 seasons of Enterprise, I feel as if the only thing that matters is the starship enterprise.

16
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Suddenly, we're on a wider canvas.

17
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We're doing the DS9 thing of actually looking at what's around us.

18
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And a lot of this, you know.

19
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I know our regulars, well, our key regulars get a lot to do, but actually a lot of this is given over to interesting guest characters, you know, and races that we don't often spend a lot of time with.

20
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I really like that.

21
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I really like that sort of fleshing out of what, it's not even called the alpha quadrant at this point, is it?

22
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No, but yes.

23
00:02:00.840 --> 00:02:01.799
Yeah, yeah.

24
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The universe.

25
00:02:02.640 --> 00:02:04.799
Yeah, it's funny, isn't it?

26
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Because, you know, there's that thing that they said where they wanted series one to end with the launch of enterprise and for it to be about the sort of politics of this version of Earth.

27
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And I always thought that was a terrible idea because I just thought they wouldn't have been able to pull it off.

28
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And I still think that's right.

29
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But there's something there.

30
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Isn't there?

31
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Like, it's not a completely terrible idea because this is a version of enterprise that investigates the world before original Star Trek.

32
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And so we have Tellerites, and we have Andorians, and we have Vulcans, and what this trilogy does.

33
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So we're watching Keshara, which is about episode 9 of series 4.

34
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And what's happening here is that the version of the Vulcans that we always disliked and all of the complaints we had about the Vulcans in episodes like stigma, for instance, in broken bow.

35
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It was one of the things I didn't like about Broken Bow, was the relationship between humanity and Vulcan was so adversaryal. was kind of nasty in both directions.

36
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They address that here.

37
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And characters that we didn't like in Broken Bow come are coming good now.

38
00:03:17.939 --> 00:03:19.919
Yeah, yeah.

39
00:03:19.979 --> 00:03:22.379
Well, I actually think that it was always wrong.

40
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Like, it was always the intention.

41
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This isn't just Manikoto coming along and saying, well, let's say all the things that are wrong with the Vulcans in enterprise, because they've been led the wrong way and they've lost sight of Surak's teachings, because that was already there, wasn't it, in things like stigma, around the fact that they couldn't mind meld, that that was sort of shameful and frowned upon.

42
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And so they're not our Vulcans and something is wrong with them.

43
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And so here we get that addressed and we get the start of a change.

44
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And it looks like, it looks to me like they're planning to do something in series 5 because there is a sort of low-key cliffhanger to this episode.

45
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And so perhaps we get to learn more about why exactly the Falcans have been so bad for so long.

46
00:04:12.900 --> 00:04:14.879
It's the one thing that irritated me about this.

47
00:04:14.939 --> 00:04:17.579
I was like, well, why is Robert Foxworth doing all of this?

48
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We don't really probe under the skin and find out what his motive is.

49
00:04:20.759 --> 00:04:26.699
And then when the Romulans come in in the last minute, I'm like, oh, okay. that's clever And well, it's like you said as well.

50
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The last 2 parcel that we've already covered.

51
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Terra Prime, and I can't remember the other one now.

52
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Demons.

53
00:04:33.600 --> 00:04:33.959
Thank you.

54
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Demons and Terra Prime, that is all centred around, you know, starting the Federation, bringing these worlds together.

55
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All of these trilogies in series 4 are leading up to that moment.

56
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And I know we don't quite get there in Terra Prime because they will wait.

57
00:04:48.899 --> 00:04:50.519
I think series 5 was where that was going to happen.

58
00:04:50.579 --> 00:04:53.040
That was really going to play out in series five.

59
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But it's all of the jigsaw pieces sort of being put on the table ready for it to pay off.

60
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The unfortunate thing is we didn't get the payoff.

61
00:05:02.220 --> 00:05:04.259
No, no.

62
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But we do have fun along the way, and I do think that this is a version of enterprise that's different from what the previous 2 versions that we have, and he's better than both of them.

63
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This is a version of Enterprise, that is infinitely superior to anything that has come before.

64
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One, because it's just fucking watchable for a star.

65
00:05:24.839 --> 00:05:26.279
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

66
00:05:26.339 --> 00:05:32.579
But two, this, no, I said to you, I was messaging you while I was watching it, so there were a lot of sort of DS9 parallels as I was watching it.

67
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And how this 3 parter is structured reminded me so much of a DS9 2 or 3 parter in that the 1st episode, it's sort of all focussed on the Vulcans and we go down on the planet and there's a bombing. there's a bombing in improbable cause, which leads us to, you know, Cardassia and all of that.

68
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And then at the end of episode two, it opens out, you think it's just going to be set around the Vulcans.

69
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It opens out.

70
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No, no, no, they're going to invade Andoria.

71
00:06:00.060 --> 00:06:01.259
We're off to Andoria now.

72
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This has taken place on our vast galactic scale, which is exactly what happened in, guess what?

73
00:06:06.660 --> 00:06:10.740
improbable cause, where at the end of that, they said, right, we're going to go and attack the Dominion.

74
00:06:10.800 --> 00:06:13.620
We've got a Romulan Cardassian fleet and we're off there.

75
00:06:13.680 --> 00:06:15.540
And I was like, yeah, do you know what?

76
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They've looked at something that works in the past and said, we're going to have a bit of that.

77
00:06:20.279 --> 00:06:21.959
What's better here?

78
00:06:21.959 --> 00:06:25.259
And I think it's probably the only thing that's better here is they've got a bit more money.

79
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I think the special effects and how this is realised is a bit more spectacular.

80
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Yeah a bit more.

81
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In fact, you even get you even get a torture scene in this episode, which is what happens in the Dyer's cast when Garrett tortures Odo.

82
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So this is almost like Enterprises version of that two-parter.

83
00:06:44.220 --> 00:06:46.740
It doesn't quite have the rich characters.

84
00:06:46.800 --> 00:06:48.540
I think that's the one thing that's lacking it.

85
00:06:48.600 --> 00:06:54.779
But what ends up happening too is that they are prepared to change the status quo?

86
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And in our last episode, we complained that Voyager wasn't willing to do that and that that was a real problem because it just felt like everyone had their memory wiped every week and, you know, a new thing happened.

87
00:07:08.220 --> 00:07:11.399
They weren't willing to change the status quo with a romance.

88
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The simplest of things.

89
00:07:13.319 --> 00:07:14.459
Yeah.

90
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Yeah, and so here we get a complete change and we get like at the beginning of the 1st episode.

91
00:07:21.060 --> 00:07:23.759
So this is part 3 of the Vulcan trilogy.

92
00:07:23.819 --> 00:07:26.220
The 1st episode's called The Forge.

93
00:07:26.279 --> 00:07:30.420
The 2nd one's Awakening, and then this one's Kishara.

94
00:07:30.480 --> 00:07:35.819
And at the beginning of the forge, a character from the 1st episode is killed.

95
00:07:35.879 --> 00:07:36.660
Is that right?

96
00:07:37.079 --> 00:07:41.459
He hasn't been appearing at Enterprise ever since then. in every season.

97
00:07:41.519 --> 00:07:43.439
Yeah, and so he's a big deal.

98
00:07:43.500 --> 00:07:50.399
And we get this focus on Soval, who is the sort of Vulcan antagonist and has been in it a lot as well, I gather.

99
00:07:50.459 --> 00:07:56.939
And that kind of gives this some character motivation as well because Arch is angry because his friend has died.

100
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But actually not angry in a pissy way where we, you know, in the way normally is, where we don't like him.

101
00:08:01.740 --> 00:08:08.220
He's just got a genuine reason to sort of go and sort this out, we go down to the forge, which I thought was brilliantly realised.

102
00:08:08.279 --> 00:08:11.879
They were out in a desert somewhere. and to Paul's mother is there.

103
00:08:11.939 --> 00:08:14.519
So there we've got more character work taking place.

104
00:08:14.579 --> 00:08:16.379
She's been established earlier in the season.

105
00:08:16.920 --> 00:08:20.819
This is a level that Enterprise has not been working on before this.

106
00:08:20.879 --> 00:08:21.540
No.

107
00:08:21.600 --> 00:08:25.199
Well, even the marriage, you know, like, I thought the marriage was really interesting.

108
00:08:26.040 --> 00:08:28.800
And this, like, we'll get to it, but it's paid off brilliantly in this episode.

109
00:08:28.860 --> 00:08:29.579
Yeah.

110
00:08:29.639 --> 00:08:30.360
Yeah.

111
00:08:30.420 --> 00:08:31.920
Yeah, it's very good.

112
00:08:31.980 --> 00:08:34.200
Like, I think it's working.

113
00:08:34.259 --> 00:08:35.820
They're remembering what happens each week.

114
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This is a thing that happens week to week and it starts right from the beginning of series 4.

115
00:08:39.720 --> 00:08:43.799
And frankly, series 3 worked like that as well, but it was kind of grim and miserable.

116
00:08:43.860 --> 00:08:47.159
It was very, very... comic book, wasn't it?

117
00:08:47.220 --> 00:08:56.220
It's basically we're going to have tons of action and suspense and atmosphere with big comic book villains, which, you know, a lot of...

118
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This is very comic book, but it's sort of treated a bit more seriously, isn't it?

119
00:09:00.240 --> 00:09:03.899
It's all well...

120
00:09:03.960 --> 00:09:04.860
Yeah.

121
00:09:04.919 --> 00:09:17.340
We'll get that because I think that this is very cartoony and it doesn't really tell us anything particularly interesting about Vulcan society or faith or logic or anything at all.

122
00:09:17.399 --> 00:09:26.940
So it's not about anything in any kind of thoughtful sense, but it's just about being sort of terribly entertaining and I think that's probably enough.

123
00:09:27.179 --> 00:09:29.159
What it lacks.

124
00:09:29.220 --> 00:09:32.759
Uh, and we talked about this off mic as well is humour.

125
00:09:32.820 --> 00:09:38.100
So it's all treated incredibly seriously, and that's not a bad thing.

126
00:09:38.220 --> 00:09:43.080
Like we said, it's very entertaining to watch, but I think somewhere around Way of the Warrior.

127
00:09:43.139 --> 00:09:44.820
DS9 decided, you know what?

128
00:09:44.879 --> 00:09:46.139
This show will work better.

129
00:09:46.200 --> 00:09:50.460
If we take it on a grand scale and we have a ton of fun with the characters as well, you know.

130
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So you can have an episode like The Changing Face of Evil, where the defiance destroyed, wind stabbing people and, you know, the Cardassians are inciting rebellion, but in the same breath, Cisco's appalled because his peppers have been burned.

131
00:10:03.419 --> 00:10:05.879
You know, like, and that's really fun to watch.

132
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That mixing it up is really fun to watch.

133
00:10:08.159 --> 00:10:13.080
But the villains in this were all very, like the Roberts Fosworth's character was very serious.

134
00:10:13.139 --> 00:10:18.179
Whereas when think about Wyun, you know, in TS9, who you...

135
00:10:18.299 --> 00:10:19.799
Well, even comparing Weiyun to Shran.

136
00:10:19.860 --> 00:10:26.879
You know, Shan is a much less interesting villain than Wayoon, much less K. best thing in this show bar mile, though.

137
00:10:26.940 --> 00:10:28.139
Yeah, he is very good.

138
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Incredibly watchable.

139
00:10:29.879 --> 00:10:31.740
Well, we should probably watch the thing, you know.

140
00:10:31.799 --> 00:10:33.899
We've kind of discussed it in some depth now.

141
00:10:34.019 --> 00:10:35.399
Yeah.

142
00:10:35.399 --> 00:10:36.299
All right.

143
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In that case, I will count us in.

144
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Five, four, three, two, one.

145
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And we're off.

146
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Oh, you know, I thought that CGI explosion of the embassy going up was actually rather impressive.

147
00:10:52.200 --> 00:10:55.860
Yeah, it is very cartoony, but that's what we get.

148
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I had to break it to you.

149
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But CGI is in the cartoon phase at the moment, right?

150
00:11:01.799 --> 00:11:02.940
Yeah, it is.

151
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So, our antagonist at the moment is, um, Robert Foxworth is Velasse, and he is the head of Falcon.

152
00:11:12.000 --> 00:11:12.480
That was him.

153
00:11:12.539 --> 00:11:14.820
No, I didn't recognise him.

154
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He is Layton, Admiral Layton, in DS9?

155
00:11:20.159 --> 00:11:21.600
Paradise Lost, yeah.

156
00:11:21.659 --> 00:11:25.139
Yeah, which this owes something to as well.

157
00:11:25.259 --> 00:11:37.799
I think Paradise lost him this. pretty soon, where a terrorist attack, you know, is blamed on people that we're worried about and, you know, we're looking at a security force that's overreaching and stuff.

158
00:11:37.860 --> 00:11:44.879
Interestingly, in Paradise Lost, it's the moment where Robert Foxworth orders one federation ship to far on another, which has never happened before.

159
00:11:44.940 --> 00:11:50.940
And in this, you have in order that the Falcans do it and you have the same sort of, they're not going to go there, are they?

160
00:11:51.000 --> 00:11:51.299
You know?

161
00:11:51.419 --> 00:11:53.879
But Robert Foxworth.

162
00:11:53.940 --> 00:11:59.580
The human admiral is kind of sexy in a way that these guys...

163
00:11:59.639 --> 00:12:01.440
Yeah, the hair is bad.

164
00:12:01.440 --> 00:12:04.440
Like the eyebrows aren't doing him any favours.

165
00:12:04.500 --> 00:12:06.179
I did think it was a good performance.

166
00:12:06.240 --> 00:12:12.179
I think all that was what was really lacking was, like I said earlier, a motivation, a character, really.

167
00:12:12.240 --> 00:12:13.980
He's got a sort of plot function.

168
00:12:14.100 --> 00:12:17.460
But I couldn't really figure out why he was doing all of this.

169
00:12:17.519 --> 00:12:18.659
No.

170
00:12:18.720 --> 00:12:23.399
And I think that's the problem there, because we're operating on a cartoon level.

171
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There's no real depth to the, to thinking about what it is that made the Vulcans go wrong.

172
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And the answer in the last 2 minutes is the Romulans, which is a kind of boring answer.

173
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Oh I love that.

174
00:12:38.039 --> 00:12:39.659
Yeah, I think it's boring.

175
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I love this as well, where they mention the Indy technology and say the Andorans have Zindy technology.

176
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The episode that we did, right?

177
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Proving ground. the last time we saw Shran.

178
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Taking stuff from the past. and using it now.

179
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God damn it.

180
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And surprised it took you 4 years, but we're finally here.

181
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Yeah.

182
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Yeah.

183
00:12:59.039 --> 00:13:03.779
And stuff from the Zindi arc as well, which is a weird arc in that really nothing comes from it.

184
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You know, it's part of the canon, but it doesn't affect anything very much.

185
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The Zindy get an occasional throwaway mention in lower decks.

186
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Even it was the greatest threat to the earth ever.

187
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No one ever mentions it again. once again. that's right.

188
00:13:16.740 --> 00:13:19.620
Do you remember the great Zindi threat?

189
00:13:20.039 --> 00:13:20.820
Yeah.

190
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I got the impression that it was because they were kind of ruining the timeline or something.

191
00:13:25.200 --> 00:13:29.460
Doesn't it happen at the end when they go off to Nazi occupied America or something?

192
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Yeah, I can't remember now.

193
00:13:31.440 --> 00:13:32.340
Oh here we go.

194
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I did sing the opening credits.

195
00:13:38.039 --> 00:13:38.700
Yeah, yeah.

196
00:13:38.700 --> 00:13:40.980
So I watched all 3 episodes and sang each time.

197
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It's been a long.

198
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Sorry, I can't help it.

199
00:13:44.340 --> 00:13:47.759
There's there's one thing that I thought was really good.

200
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I think it must be Archer's office and trips trips in there because he's in charge of the ship because Archer's down on Vulcan, and there's a series of paintings or prints, like little lithographs, like that are monochrome that depict the sort of clipper ship from the opening credits and then the space shuttle enterprise, which I actually saw with my own eyes when I was a kid.

201
00:14:13.200 --> 00:14:17.759
And, you know, then our enterprise, you know, the NXO one and stuff.

202
00:14:17.820 --> 00:14:20.460
So it's a little recap of these opening credits on the wall.

203
00:14:20.639 --> 00:14:31.740
I have to confess that I did try, well, my other up was podcasting, so I tried to slip in the Enterprise episode whilst he was upstairs away, so he wouldn't see me watching Enterprise.

204
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Most people, you know, have a sneaky wank or so when they're other halfs away, but no, I'll...

205
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I don't want to be caught watching Enterprise.

206
00:14:38.639 --> 00:14:43.440
Anyway, it comes down, it comes down to get a bloody cup of tea before he starts just as that music hit.

207
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He walks in the room and he went, oh, dear.

208
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And just walked off.

209
00:14:48.480 --> 00:14:49.980
Damn it.

210
00:14:50.820 --> 00:14:54.899
There's a lot of flames flying around this.

211
00:14:55.019 --> 00:14:55.440
Yeah, yeah.

212
00:14:55.500 --> 00:14:57.659
A lot of flames set number 58.

213
00:14:58.740 --> 00:14:59.279
Oh my god.

214
00:14:59.340 --> 00:15:00.480
It's tapes at one.

215
00:15:00.539 --> 00:15:20.759
And the one, what you didn't see was last week's episode of Lower Decks, which is called Caves, which is entirely set in a cave, and they have flashbacks to other things that happen in caves, and each cave looks identical but lit slightly differently in the different stories because of course.

216
00:15:20.820 --> 00:15:26.519
Well, is it is it cartoons of other Star Trek shows or just previous lower decks adventures?

217
00:15:26.580 --> 00:15:29.879
previous unseen lower decks adventures that happen in caves.

218
00:15:30.000 --> 00:15:33.179
Now, can I say, I do like all of this.

219
00:15:33.240 --> 00:15:35.700
Conor Trenier in charge of the Enterprise.

220
00:15:35.759 --> 00:15:41.399
I thought he acquitted himself rather well because, one, he's not a complete arsehole, like Captain Archer.

221
00:15:41.460 --> 00:15:42.720
So we kind of like him.

222
00:15:42.779 --> 00:15:45.059
But actually, I thought they all work together.

223
00:15:45.120 --> 00:15:55.440
There's a couple of scenes on the bridge later where you see them all doing their thing, reads on tactical, host, she's doing that bit, and I'm like, yeah, again, where was this in series one and two?

224
00:15:55.500 --> 00:16:01.860
Well, even Travis gets to pilot a shuttle and gets a couple of lines, which is I was so happy when you got a line, yeah.

225
00:16:01.919 --> 00:16:03.240
Yeah, bless.

226
00:16:03.539 --> 00:16:05.700
Why would they waste him?

227
00:16:05.759 --> 00:16:06.659
He's so prissy.

228
00:16:06.720 --> 00:16:08.220
I know, I know.

229
00:16:08.279 --> 00:16:09.000
It's ridiculous.

230
00:16:09.059 --> 00:16:10.559
It's just ridiculous.

231
00:16:10.620 --> 00:16:11.940
But they're just not interested in him.

232
00:16:12.000 --> 00:16:15.899
I mean, Tripp is great and he's probably the best character of the lot.

233
00:16:15.960 --> 00:16:19.440
Maybe Tripan to poll, are my 2 fa- Well, the doctor, obviously.

234
00:16:19.500 --> 00:16:24.419
He goes without saying is the best character of all of them, but those 2 are pretty great.

235
00:16:24.480 --> 00:16:27.000
And I think Savale is really good.

236
00:16:27.059 --> 00:16:28.080
Is that his name's involved?

237
00:16:28.200 --> 00:16:29.940
The little arc that he goes on in these 3 episodes.

238
00:16:30.000 --> 00:16:32.879
Because we really hated him in Broken Bow.

239
00:16:32.940 --> 00:16:41.820
He's the reason why Captain Archer's father never got to go up in space because he was the one sort of holding back the space program on Earth.

240
00:16:41.879 --> 00:16:45.659
Yeah, he's the one that... sharing the stars of the human beings.

241
00:16:45.720 --> 00:16:47.340
Yeah, precisely.

242
00:16:47.399 --> 00:16:50.700
And yeah, here he's basically deposed, isn't he?

243
00:16:50.759 --> 00:16:51.720
He's humiliated.

244
00:16:51.779 --> 00:16:54.659
And then in this episode, he melds, remember?

245
00:16:54.720 --> 00:17:02.759
He's melded with a witness who's in a coma, someone who saw the bomb being brought into the embassy.

246
00:17:03.179 --> 00:17:06.660
He's just shown to be a man of enormous integrity.

247
00:17:06.839 --> 00:17:08.819
He's great, isn't he?

248
00:17:08.880 --> 00:17:13.259
actor is like, it's almost like a, thank you so much for sticking with this dreadful show for 4 years.

249
00:17:13.319 --> 00:17:19.019
Here's a sequence now where you can emote and they put him in the chair and give him a great scene with Shran.

250
00:17:19.079 --> 00:17:23.039
Yeah, I hated that scene, but I will tell you why, I think.

251
00:17:23.099 --> 00:17:25.140
I don't think it's a brilliant scene.

252
00:17:25.200 --> 00:17:26.700
Oh, no, he was tremendous.

253
00:17:26.759 --> 00:17:28.559
I think he is really properly good.

254
00:17:28.619 --> 00:17:33.779
I mean, unfortunately, it wasn't a patch on the Odo Garrett one, but then that's Rene Aubichonois and Andrew Robinson.

255
00:17:33.839 --> 00:17:34.799
Come on. that's right.

256
00:17:34.859 --> 00:18:07.140
So, I think that conversation that, um, that the admiral and then so I'll have in that 1st episode is really interesting because it's like we think you of all of those alien groups that we know are the most like us, and you scare us with the way that you emerge from savagery 80 years ago or whatever, and now you're, uh, you know, going for the stars and that frightens us.

257
00:18:07.200 --> 00:18:14.460
And they have a real proper conversation about that, which I think is really interesting because it's what this trilogy is about.

258
00:18:14.519 --> 00:18:17.700
You know, it gives the Vulcans a history.

259
00:18:17.759 --> 00:18:19.680
It's kind of what the show's been about.

260
00:18:19.920 --> 00:18:21.599
Yeah, yeah.

261
00:18:21.660 --> 00:18:25.380
So the show has been about Earth, but it has equally been about Vulcan.

262
00:18:25.440 --> 00:18:31.619
And so, and so we get this from the Vulcans, and I think it's really, really interesting.

263
00:18:31.740 --> 00:18:50.460
And I think also then Discovery takes that on board, you know, we go to Star Trek the Next Generation, which comes later, but Discovery, which, you know, is broadcast like later and brings the Vulcans and Romeulans together and creates, you know, that ongoing history, which I think is really interesting.

264
00:18:50.519 --> 00:18:52.259
I'm an emotional fella.

265
00:18:52.319 --> 00:18:55.259
So I tend to find the Vulcans a bit tedious, you know.

266
00:18:55.319 --> 00:19:02.880
And I certainly found the depiction of the Vulcans in early enterprise thoroughly tedious to the point where I stopped watching.

267
00:19:02.940 --> 00:19:06.900
I stopped watching after that episode 5 or 6 because I really didn't like what they were doing.

268
00:19:06.960 --> 00:19:09.119
The fact that they managed to turn that around.

269
00:19:09.180 --> 00:19:12.539
This three-parter is the most interesting thing, I think they've done.

270
00:19:12.599 --> 00:19:14.519
Well, they do with Falcon.

271
00:19:14.579 --> 00:19:21.480
To be honest with you, Nathan, I think this three-parter might be the most interesting thing that Enterprise does, because I've seen enough of it now.

272
00:19:21.539 --> 00:19:25.980
So I know that I wasn't engaged with it as much as, oh, it's that special effect shop.

273
00:19:26.039 --> 00:19:26.579
I like that.

274
00:19:26.640 --> 00:19:30.180
That's trying to do Star Wars there.

275
00:19:30.240 --> 00:19:31.440
Yeah, it is.

276
00:19:31.500 --> 00:19:31.740
Yeah.

277
00:19:31.799 --> 00:19:32.099
Yeah.

278
00:19:32.579 --> 00:19:35.880
So what do you think is new to pal?

279
00:19:36.180 --> 00:19:37.980
Oh, no what?

280
00:19:38.039 --> 00:19:39.000
We'll talk about her later.

281
00:19:39.059 --> 00:19:40.559
Well, I don't know if it appears in this.

282
00:19:40.619 --> 00:19:44.579
I hope it does. somewhere in this sort of Vulcan building.

283
00:19:44.640 --> 00:19:49.259
There's this, um, a set that looks like it's made up for some, from a kids show.

284
00:19:49.319 --> 00:19:55.440
It's got this weird purple background and then there's a backdrop of buildings that look so fake.

285
00:19:55.500 --> 00:19:56.400
Did you notice it?

286
00:19:56.460 --> 00:19:57.720
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

287
00:19:57.779 --> 00:19:58.680
That was terrible.

288
00:19:58.740 --> 00:20:02.039
Sorry, you were going to say something. say something...

289
00:20:02.099 --> 00:20:03.839
Yeah, here, this is it.

290
00:20:03.900 --> 00:20:05.220
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

291
00:20:05.279 --> 00:20:06.420
Yeah, it's very strange.

292
00:20:06.480 --> 00:20:07.140
Yeah.

293
00:20:07.200 --> 00:20:08.880
And that, the painting on the walls.

294
00:20:08.940 --> 00:20:10.980
I think if we keep going around that, we might see the building.

295
00:20:11.039 --> 00:20:11.519
Oh no, no.

296
00:20:11.579 --> 00:20:12.180
No, we saw it.

297
00:20:12.240 --> 00:20:13.200
It was already in that chart.

298
00:20:13.500 --> 00:20:14.400
It was shockingly bad.

299
00:20:14.460 --> 00:20:15.059
Yeah.

300
00:20:15.119 --> 00:20:17.700
Yeah, it is kind of a bit shit, isn't it?

301
00:20:17.759 --> 00:20:21.599
You know that sort of backdrop of New York that you see in friends out of the window.

302
00:20:21.660 --> 00:20:22.799
It's a bit like that, you know?

303
00:20:22.859 --> 00:20:29.880
Well, no, there'd be photographic blowup that we saw in stigma, remember, that was supposed to be that was supposed to be a city.

304
00:20:29.940 --> 00:20:35.400
No, do you remember in Terra Prime where Reed went off to the section 31?

305
00:20:35.460 --> 00:20:36.000
Oh, yeah, yeah.

306
00:20:36.059 --> 00:20:39.059
And they tried to convince they were outside in like New York or something.

307
00:20:39.119 --> 00:20:40.680
Yeah, horrible.

308
00:20:40.740 --> 00:20:43.200
Oh, okay, sorry, back to the episode.

309
00:20:43.259 --> 00:21:05.759
So, so part of the thing here, when we hear, you know, that that Tapol doesn't believe in Cartres and that mind melding is illegal, we know that's wrong because we know that they're important features of what the Vulcans come to be, you know, in 100 years' time or just over 100 years' time when Star Trek is sad.

310
00:21:05.819 --> 00:21:26.460
And, But then we have to power in this episode, and she's originally the person that Velass tries to pin the embassy bombing on, remember, and she's a member of this Cyranite faction that believes that they have the true teachings of Surak.

311
00:21:26.519 --> 00:21:28.619
Turns out they're all pacifists.

312
00:21:28.680 --> 00:21:29.700
Yeah.

313
00:21:29.700 --> 00:21:30.720
I don't believe it.

314
00:21:32.220 --> 00:21:37.680
I think it's weird not giving her the accent, like not making her do the accent.

315
00:21:37.740 --> 00:21:40.319
I didn't really know this, if I'm honest.

316
00:21:40.380 --> 00:21:46.319
We've seen Tapau when she was played by Celia Lovsky at Spock's wedding.

317
00:21:46.380 --> 00:21:52.079
Uh, The wonderful Vulcan woman who marries them.

318
00:21:52.140 --> 00:21:53.339
Remember?

319
00:21:53.400 --> 00:21:54.839
Oh, of course, you know, I didn't.

320
00:21:54.960 --> 00:21:56.339
I didn't even make the connection.

321
00:21:56.400 --> 00:21:57.900
I didn't even make the question.

322
00:21:57.900 --> 00:21:58.980
Yeah.

323
00:21:59.039 --> 00:21:59.940
Yeah.

324
00:22:00.000 --> 00:22:03.240
And she was incredible. couldn't take my eyes off her.

325
00:22:03.299 --> 00:22:05.339
Yeah, absolutely magnificent.

326
00:22:05.400 --> 00:22:09.900
And then this little sort of young American woman who has no accent, no particular presence and stuff.

327
00:22:09.960 --> 00:22:11.099
That is strange.

328
00:22:11.160 --> 00:22:11.940
Yeah.

329
00:22:12.000 --> 00:22:20.640
So I kind of think that that that isn't satisfying anyone because the people who know who to power is a kind of going, oh, come on.

330
00:22:20.700 --> 00:22:26.099
Celia was so great in this role, why is this woman not even trying to do that cool accent?

331
00:22:26.460 --> 00:22:28.200
But you know what?

332
00:22:28.259 --> 00:22:33.480
The fact that they are plummeting TOS, finally, on this show.

333
00:22:33.539 --> 00:22:39.420
Yeah, I will give them props for that because it's the thing that they've really avoided doing in the 1st 3 years.

334
00:22:39.480 --> 00:22:42.720
And and they do something with her that is good.

335
00:22:42.779 --> 00:22:50.640
Like they make her a major player in the reform of Vulcan that takes place at this point, you know?

336
00:22:50.640 --> 00:22:58.259
You know, I think something interesting that's happened here is the writers of the Forge, which is the 1st part of this 3 parter.

337
00:22:58.680 --> 00:23:00.119
I cannot remember their names now.

338
00:23:00.180 --> 00:23:01.980
I think it's a husband and wife team.

339
00:23:02.039 --> 00:23:05.160
Phyllis Strong and Mike Sussman, I want to say.

340
00:23:05.220 --> 00:23:07.140
Those names seem familiar.

341
00:23:07.200 --> 00:23:10.980
Yeah, they've written a ton of Star Trek books before they wrote for this show.

342
00:23:11.039 --> 00:23:13.500
So they're steeped in Star Trek Law.

343
00:23:13.559 --> 00:23:14.460
Yeah, yeah.

344
00:23:14.460 --> 00:23:31.740
And Manicoto deliberately brought them in because they knew their stuff and they knew and I feel like you can feel their hand in all of this in that we can take the show in the direction it needs to go for it to get to TOS, but we can do some interesting things along the way.

345
00:23:31.799 --> 00:23:33.779
Well, yeah, that's it.

346
00:23:33.839 --> 00:23:35.400
It wouldn't have been anything in itself.

347
00:23:35.460 --> 00:23:38.759
It would have just been fan wank and it would have irritated the hell out of us.

348
00:23:38.880 --> 00:23:49.680
If it hadn't been in the service of telling a story on a big scale and suddenly making it interesting and making Star Trek feel like it was taking place in a world, I think.

349
00:23:49.740 --> 00:23:54.240
Like early enterprise, it's just trying to tell all the pioneers in space story, isn't it?

350
00:23:54.299 --> 00:23:55.259
And guess what?

351
00:23:55.319 --> 00:23:57.359
That turned out to be really fucking boring.

352
00:23:57.480 --> 00:24:05.519
Whereas, yeah, this is playing in the tool, you know, the toy box of Star Trek TOS and things that come later.

353
00:24:05.579 --> 00:24:07.319
And all of a sudden we're interested.

354
00:24:07.440 --> 00:24:09.059
It was a good move.

355
00:24:09.119 --> 00:24:12.240
Manikoto made that was basically his mission statement, wasn't it?

356
00:24:12.299 --> 00:24:16.079
for, was to start making this Star Trek.

357
00:24:16.140 --> 00:24:18.299
Let's put the trek back in enterprise.

358
00:24:19.019 --> 00:24:23.940
So I have to say that I don't think that this woman does a bad job.

359
00:24:24.000 --> 00:24:27.119
Do you know what I mean, but she's not to pal.

360
00:24:27.180 --> 00:24:29.099
I don't think there was a weak performance in this.

361
00:24:29.160 --> 00:24:29.880
No.

362
00:24:29.940 --> 00:24:32.160
No, it's just a contrast there, isn't it?

363
00:24:32.220 --> 00:24:32.759
Yeah.

364
00:24:33.299 --> 00:24:35.519
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

365
00:24:35.579 --> 00:24:36.960
I just don't quite know where they're doing it.

366
00:24:37.019 --> 00:24:40.440
Early wrong. earlier on when he was going through all the caves.

367
00:24:40.500 --> 00:24:42.839
I was waiting for the car because you're following him.

368
00:24:42.900 --> 00:24:46.259
They're doing a tracking shot through the caves and I was like, hang on a minute.

369
00:24:46.319 --> 00:24:47.160
This set can't be this big.

370
00:24:47.220 --> 00:24:49.140
They don't have as much cave as that.

371
00:24:49.200 --> 00:24:51.059
At some point, there's going to be a cut.

372
00:24:51.059 --> 00:24:57.059
And actually, it was longer than I thought it was going to be, but he went around at least 3 corners before they cut.

373
00:24:57.119 --> 00:24:59.160
And then he went back to the start again, obviously.

374
00:24:59.220 --> 00:25:00.660
I'm like, hang on, haven't we been here before?

375
00:25:01.559 --> 00:25:18.359
So, what's funny about this too, is that it is a giant geopolitical thing and it is about kind of changing the nature of the Vulcans and like a big kind of awakening, I guess, another awakening in the Vulcans, like the one that they had 1800 years ago.

376
00:25:18.420 --> 00:25:22.740
Um, But they just make it a very simple.

377
00:25:22.799 --> 00:25:37.619
We need to get this artefact to the city, and that's the one plot, and then the other plot is we need to stop the Vulcans invading Andoria, and that's another plot, and they're both fun and interesting and full of incident and stuff.

378
00:25:37.740 --> 00:25:41.220
I'm really... they added the 2nd plot, though.

379
00:25:41.279 --> 00:25:44.400
It needed to go up a step and boy, it does as well.

380
00:25:44.460 --> 00:25:47.759
Here they're talking about Panas syndrome from stigma.

381
00:25:47.819 --> 00:25:55.740
Again, reaching into the past and finding something that perhaps didn't work and giving it a bit of a little bit of substance.

382
00:25:55.859 --> 00:26:11.880
But, I mean, even that, the Panas syndrome thing was another thing that convinced us that there's something very wrong with these Vulcans, and Manikoto is aware that that's how we feel, and it is intentional.

383
00:26:11.940 --> 00:26:13.259
It has to be intentional.

384
00:26:13.319 --> 00:26:18.660
You know, they know as well as we do that this is an odd way for Vulcans to behave.

385
00:26:18.720 --> 00:26:26.400
I think the biggest example of him trying to sort of reform the Vulcans in our eyes is Savile.

386
00:26:26.460 --> 00:26:27.539
It's just taken that character.

387
00:26:27.599 --> 00:26:30.660
I'm making him likeable and somebody we want to be around.

388
00:26:30.720 --> 00:26:32.460
And it really works as well.

389
00:26:33.059 --> 00:26:36.359
So we're about to have the torture scene.

390
00:26:36.420 --> 00:26:37.680
Why don't you like this scene?

391
00:26:37.740 --> 00:26:48.539
Because it doesn't manage to do what it needs to do, and I think it's unpleasant just for the sake of being kind of gritty.

392
00:26:48.599 --> 00:26:57.299
So, you could point at that augments arc. you know, that sequence where the fellow's inside the thing and he's bleeding from every orifice, for the exactly the same thing.

393
00:26:57.359 --> 00:27:01.559
But what you're doing is creating a kind of moral dilemma.

394
00:27:01.619 --> 00:27:02.279
Do you know what I mean?

395
00:27:02.339 --> 00:27:11.579
Because you've got some kids who are, you know, with that and some who aren't and you've got these kids behaving in this sort of terrible, horrible responsible way.

396
00:27:11.640 --> 00:27:16.799
And so there are character things about it here, that what this doesn't lead to anything.

397
00:27:16.799 --> 00:27:33.839
And what it needs to do is it needs to have a moment where the 2 of these people bond and he decides that and Strand decides that torturing servile is wrong and he doesn't want to do it.

398
00:27:33.960 --> 00:27:52.200
And we approach it by talking about them working together on the peace treaty, but all that happens is he kind of stops torturing him for no reason, and then he comes in and says, oh, well, he convinced me he was telling the truth because he didn't just make some shit up, and that's enough for me.

399
00:27:52.259 --> 00:27:55.920
And so we never see anything, like it doesn't do the character thing it needs to do.

400
00:27:56.039 --> 00:28:02.519
It's not even like it's telling us anything about Shran because we know that he'll go to any lengths to, you know, to get what he wants.

401
00:28:02.579 --> 00:28:05.039
Pointing you at the Dyer's cast again.

402
00:28:05.099 --> 00:28:07.859
That torture sequence between Odo and Garak.

403
00:28:07.920 --> 00:28:11.579
Garak doesn't want to be doing it, so that makes it interesting.

404
00:28:11.640 --> 00:28:16.859
Um, it's fucking intense because, oh, John Noir goes for it.

405
00:28:16.920 --> 00:28:20.519
But at the end of the sequence, he gives him something.

406
00:28:20.579 --> 00:28:24.779
He says, I want to go home and that's what I've not told anybody before.

407
00:28:24.779 --> 00:28:27.119
So suddenly there is a bond between the 2 of them.

408
00:28:27.180 --> 00:28:28.380
So the scene had a point.

409
00:28:28.440 --> 00:28:33.119
And then after that, we start having scenes between Garak and Odo.

410
00:28:33.180 --> 00:28:40.500
Where they're, no, not friends, but, you know, they, they, they hang together, you know, because they're both lonely and they both don't want to be there.

411
00:28:41.519 --> 00:28:44.819
It has a it has a point. kind of want to go home.

412
00:28:44.880 --> 00:28:45.180
Yeah.

413
00:28:45.240 --> 00:28:46.619
Yeah, whereas this doesn't.

414
00:28:46.680 --> 00:28:51.599
I think it doesn't do what it needs to do and had it been better written, it would have been better.

415
00:28:51.720 --> 00:28:52.140
I think.

416
00:28:52.200 --> 00:28:54.660
On a purely performance level, though.

417
00:28:54.720 --> 00:28:55.500
I was impressed.

418
00:28:55.559 --> 00:28:56.099
Yeah, 0 yeah.

419
00:28:56.160 --> 00:28:56.819
Yeah.

420
00:28:56.880 --> 00:29:08.160
Oh, no, no, you're clearly just kind of, you know, um, giving Gary Graham something to do, some acting to do and getting him to do things that he hasn't done as that character before and fair enough.

421
00:29:08.220 --> 00:29:15.480
But the scene itself doesn't work because I don't see it going anywhere. semi- eyebrow raising you've been doing for 3 seasons or I love that.

422
00:29:15.539 --> 00:29:16.740
Take a look at this scratch.

423
00:29:16.799 --> 00:29:17.099
Come on.

424
00:29:18.299 --> 00:29:21.660
You're going to get to a moat for at least 5 minutes.

425
00:29:21.720 --> 00:29:24.359
My God, a line for Travis there.

426
00:29:24.420 --> 00:29:26.579
Yeah, yep, there he is.

427
00:29:26.640 --> 00:29:27.720
Look, he's talking and everything.

428
00:29:27.779 --> 00:29:30.720
I think these CGI ships have come on as well.

429
00:29:30.779 --> 00:29:37.500
I think they look, they don't, obviously, the models always going to look more robust than CGI, but actually they look quite detailed.

430
00:29:37.740 --> 00:29:47.579
Yeah, they certainly look better than, you know, like they're a step ahead of what kind of Babylon 5 does and I've never heard of Babylon 5, but. step ahead of that.

431
00:29:47.640 --> 00:29:50.640
Well, you know, like I think it was worth a try.

432
00:29:50.700 --> 00:29:53.160
Like I'm happy they tried.

433
00:29:53.220 --> 00:29:59.579
I do like the sort of fountain pen shape of those Andorian shits, but you know, they're not a patch on some of the ones we see in the 90s.

434
00:29:59.640 --> 00:30:01.380
Gemadar ships and things like that.

435
00:30:01.440 --> 00:30:03.480
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

436
00:30:03.539 --> 00:30:10.559
But I always feel like they, they, they do try and be sort of fun and quirky with their spaceship signs.

437
00:30:11.339 --> 00:30:21.420
I think there's an attempt to make them blockier, and look more primitive in the 22nd century, maybe, but...

438
00:30:21.480 --> 00:30:23.220
Which is a fair approach.

439
00:30:23.279 --> 00:30:24.960
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

440
00:30:25.019 --> 00:30:25.920
No, they need to sell it.

441
00:30:25.980 --> 00:30:26.460
This is the past.

442
00:30:26.519 --> 00:30:33.059
I was at a convention last week, you know, and a fella had a whole table just full of Star Trek spaceship models on it.

443
00:30:33.119 --> 00:30:33.779
Oh, wow.

444
00:30:33.779 --> 00:30:36.180
And just seeing them all sort of laid out in front of me.

445
00:30:36.240 --> 00:30:42.059
I was like, there's some real diversity here, you know, like across from Kurtzman right away back to TOS.

446
00:30:42.240 --> 00:30:44.400
It's wonderful, isn't it?

447
00:30:44.460 --> 00:30:47.579
It's a great sort of playground and they do a really good job, I think.

448
00:30:47.640 --> 00:30:48.480
They always do.

449
00:30:48.539 --> 00:30:53.400
It means that we can have, you know, a Star Trek visual dictionary, just like they do for Star Wars.

450
00:30:53.460 --> 00:30:54.839
That's right.

451
00:30:55.140 --> 00:30:57.359
Did I tell you I bought that?

452
00:30:58.019 --> 00:31:00.539
Oh, did you?

453
00:31:00.539 --> 00:31:04.440
It shows you the spaceship designs.

454
00:31:04.500 --> 00:31:10.140
And then like all the map paintings that they do in the 90s of the planets and things like that.

455
00:31:10.200 --> 00:31:11.400
That's wonderful.

456
00:31:11.460 --> 00:31:12.539
It's my new Bible.

457
00:31:12.779 --> 00:31:16.319
This is super interesting, isn't it, this scene?

458
00:31:16.380 --> 00:31:18.779
I mean, talk about a relationship that's come on.

459
00:31:19.259 --> 00:31:23.220
I really didn't like this pair in series one.

460
00:31:23.279 --> 00:31:23.940
No.

461
00:31:24.000 --> 00:31:29.099
And now there is just a sort of very natural respect between the 2 of them.

462
00:31:29.160 --> 00:31:30.240
Yeah.

463
00:31:30.299 --> 00:31:43.140
But I think that this gets closest to raising the sort of questions that I want this episode to talk about because like she doesn't believe it.

464
00:31:43.200 --> 00:31:56.759
There are groups of people all around the world who claim to follow Surak's teachings, Surak was around about 2000 years ago, and now there are different people who believe that he said different things.

465
00:31:56.819 --> 00:32:06.779
And this is all solved by the fact that we get his actual teachings at the end, and we know that they're definitely his teachings.

466
00:32:06.839 --> 00:32:12.900
But there's that's a kind of fantasy world version of how religion works.

467
00:32:12.960 --> 00:32:28.500
And Deep Space 9, I think, is the, like, it also goes for a sort of ludicrous space opera version of religion by the end, but on the way, it actually talks about religion and faith and things in a much more interesting way.

468
00:32:28.559 --> 00:32:38.460
Well, it would be very easy to condemn it in the way that Gene Roddenbury did, but unfortunately, the 1st officer, Maj Shakira, is religious and we cannot rip her every week.

469
00:32:38.519 --> 00:32:40.259
So it's treated very maturely at times.

470
00:32:40.380 --> 00:32:46.980
I really love the line in that last scene where she goes, well, did my mother think I was just going to come here and join this radical faction.

471
00:32:47.039 --> 00:32:50.220
And Archer says, well, you joined up with our ship.

472
00:32:50.279 --> 00:32:54.720
There are many people that consider that a radical faction. having a bit of fun with each other.

473
00:32:54.779 --> 00:32:56.039
Yeah.

474
00:32:56.099 --> 00:33:04.680
But I mean, I thought that that was a proper discussion about something and it comes at a time where archery is inhabited by Surax Cartra, isn't he?

475
00:33:05.099 --> 00:33:11.400
And so he is starting to feel sympathy for Vulcans and Syrinites and all of that.

476
00:33:11.460 --> 00:33:18.240
It's very hard to take this torture scene seriously with Shran's antennae wiggling about the place.

477
00:33:18.359 --> 00:33:22.440
So it's not the antenna that distracts me because I think they're great.

478
00:33:22.500 --> 00:33:36.180
What distracts me is that some, for some reason, he's got really powdery makeup on and because his face is very animated, because he's got laughter lines and stuff like that.

479
00:33:36.240 --> 00:33:41.880
And because we're in HD now, and because we're in HD, it's pretty unforgiving.

480
00:33:41.940 --> 00:33:45.960
So Wayoon always looked okay, but I think Strand's makeup looks really shit.

481
00:33:46.079 --> 00:33:48.839
I don't think, I don't think, um...

482
00:33:48.839 --> 00:33:51.660
Way you not as much powder on, you know.

483
00:33:51.720 --> 00:33:52.740
It wasn't...

484
00:33:52.740 --> 00:33:55.259
It always feels like it's falling off round.

485
00:33:55.380 --> 00:33:57.420
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

486
00:33:57.480 --> 00:34:00.059
I just keep expecting it must have been a big mess.

487
00:34:00.059 --> 00:34:01.200
Gum falls off.

488
00:34:01.259 --> 00:34:01.920
Yeah that's right.

489
00:34:02.039 --> 00:34:04.799
Jeffrey, can you put in this set, please?

490
00:34:04.859 --> 00:34:06.779
Look who this is.

491
00:34:06.839 --> 00:34:12.300
So we've got this new Vulcan guard guy come in.

492
00:34:12.360 --> 00:34:13.800
It's Ninja Vulcan.

493
00:34:13.860 --> 00:34:26.219
And he's called Taylock, and he is played by Todd Stashwick, who played Captain Liam Shaw in series 3 of Chicago.

494
00:34:26.280 --> 00:34:27.179
Do you realise what they're doing here?

495
00:34:27.239 --> 00:34:29.340
They're creating the bridge.

496
00:34:29.400 --> 00:34:34.019
You've got Robert Foxworth from, and you've got this fella from Picard.

497
00:34:34.079 --> 00:34:35.519
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

498
00:34:35.579 --> 00:34:37.619
And I mean, he's great.

499
00:34:37.679 --> 00:34:39.599
I mean, he is such a superb character.

500
00:34:39.840 --> 00:34:42.059
The character in Picard was.

501
00:34:42.119 --> 00:34:43.679
Yeah, that's what I mean.

502
00:34:43.679 --> 00:34:44.820
This character is magnificent.

503
00:34:44.880 --> 00:34:45.900
I barely remembered.

504
00:34:45.960 --> 00:34:48.780
But God, man, sure, in Picard.

505
00:34:48.840 --> 00:34:50.519
The sequence is in the bar.

506
00:34:50.699 --> 00:34:54.480
They were the best thing. the way he talked.

507
00:34:54.539 --> 00:34:58.199
You know the space people problem that we always have on Star Trek.

508
00:34:58.260 --> 00:34:59.460
And there's that line.

509
00:34:59.519 --> 00:35:02.340
He says, you know, we're having a bit of a weird week or something.

510
00:35:02.400 --> 00:35:05.880
It's just so... when he was completely on side, he managed to have edge.

511
00:35:05.940 --> 00:35:06.599
Sure.

512
00:35:06.719 --> 00:35:08.460
Yeah, he was really obnoxious.

513
00:35:08.519 --> 00:35:08.940
He was awesome.

514
00:35:09.000 --> 00:35:10.139
So good.

515
00:35:10.199 --> 00:35:15.300
Here he is being beaten up by him. he might have been the best original character to come out of.

516
00:35:15.420 --> 00:35:16.800
Picard, yeah.

517
00:35:16.860 --> 00:35:18.179
Yeah, I love Raffi.

518
00:35:18.239 --> 00:35:19.739
Like, I will always love Raffi.

519
00:35:19.800 --> 00:35:20.159
She's awesome.

520
00:35:20.219 --> 00:35:22.860
Oh, no, I liked Agnes from Sirius one, actually.

521
00:35:22.980 --> 00:35:23.820
Yeah.

522
00:35:23.820 --> 00:35:27.480
And I quite like the Romulan guy.

523
00:35:27.539 --> 00:35:28.980
Yeah, whatever happened to her?

524
00:35:29.039 --> 00:35:31.920
In that ball truce that we forgot all about.

525
00:35:32.039 --> 00:35:35.159
And then this ridiculous thing?

526
00:35:35.280 --> 00:35:36.420
Look at them falling down.

527
00:35:36.539 --> 00:35:37.440
I'll tell a lie.

528
00:35:37.500 --> 00:35:39.659
I did laugh at this bit where she threw him down that hole.

529
00:35:39.780 --> 00:35:40.860
Yeah, yeah.

530
00:35:40.860 --> 00:35:42.960
He has no idea it's coming either.

531
00:35:43.019 --> 00:35:44.280
So that's what happened.

532
00:35:47.340 --> 00:35:49.139
Joe, I did think as well.

533
00:35:49.199 --> 00:35:55.860
Did you not think when they finally open up the Keshara that that hologrammatic effect was actually pretty good?

534
00:35:55.920 --> 00:35:58.380
It reminded me a little bit of Kersman Trek.

535
00:35:58.440 --> 00:36:00.780
Yeah, yeah, I thought it was really properly good.

536
00:36:00.840 --> 00:36:04.980
The thing is, Kurtzman Trek is now we just have every console up in the air.

537
00:36:05.039 --> 00:36:06.480
Everything's quite a hologram.

538
00:36:06.539 --> 00:36:12.360
But this one is Vulcan writing that we have seen as well.

539
00:36:12.420 --> 00:36:17.039
So, um, uh, and it's in the air.

540
00:36:17.099 --> 00:36:24.840
And so it sells the idea that these are documents and it makes it credible that they're real as well, don't you think?

541
00:36:24.900 --> 00:36:28.079
Like that makes us seem that they're properly real.

542
00:36:28.139 --> 00:36:32.519
If they've just been sort of pieces of paper with sort of writing on them, that would have been harder.

543
00:36:32.579 --> 00:36:33.119
Do you remember?

544
00:36:33.119 --> 00:36:35.760
The text of the costumogen.

545
00:36:36.480 --> 00:36:39.000
When blood was built on it.

546
00:36:39.059 --> 00:36:42.960
Yeah, it was a little bit like a magic book, wasn't it?

547
00:36:43.079 --> 00:36:43.860
That will change.

548
00:36:43.920 --> 00:36:45.300
What are you talking about?

549
00:36:45.360 --> 00:36:46.500
It was a magic book.

550
00:36:46.559 --> 00:36:47.280
That's what I know.

551
00:36:47.340 --> 00:36:49.679
But I mean, the Keshara was as well.

552
00:36:49.739 --> 00:36:51.239
Yeah, because, yeah, yeah.

553
00:36:52.320 --> 00:36:55.920
I have to say that Todd Stashwick has improved with age.

554
00:36:55.980 --> 00:37:01.619
He is quite handsome as Captain Shaw, but whereas Robert Foxworth, unfortunately, has not.

555
00:37:02.159 --> 00:37:03.539
No.

556
00:37:03.599 --> 00:37:05.880
Well, they put him in that terrible win.

557
00:37:05.940 --> 00:37:07.260
It's a problem.

558
00:37:07.320 --> 00:37:07.679
Yeah, yeah.

559
00:37:07.739 --> 00:37:09.420
They've made him have a shave.

560
00:37:09.539 --> 00:37:22.619
So at the end of the episode, spoilers, he comes back and we discover he's really a Romulan and he's been playing, um, he's been playing Velasse.

561
00:37:22.679 --> 00:37:28.980
Okay, so this guy, um, whose name is Taylor, uh, to rhyme with Blaylock.

562
00:37:29.039 --> 00:37:34.260
Um, So he comes back and he's a Romulan and he's been playing.

563
00:37:34.320 --> 00:37:42.539
And what memory alpha says, which is absolutely hilarious is they weren't going to shoot the scene because they didn't have money for an additional speaking part.

564
00:37:42.599 --> 00:37:49.260
And so they said, uh, uh, you know, bugger it will, we'll just get Todd to do this line.

565
00:37:49.320 --> 00:37:51.000
And so that's how they do it.

566
00:37:51.059 --> 00:38:12.539
And so originally I had thought that it was leading into something he had planned for series 5, that maybe series 5 would see RC, the Romulan impact, you know, how they'd been, and why they'd been influencing Vulcan, and then, and also, you know, like, um, how Vulcan was changing.

567
00:38:12.539 --> 00:38:13.980
Now they had the proper teachings.

568
00:38:14.039 --> 00:38:22.619
Any other season of Enterprise, if they'd have put that scene at the end of this with the Romulans, I would have been like, okay, that's just them telling us they were behind all of this.

569
00:38:22.679 --> 00:38:23.159
That's fine.

570
00:38:23.159 --> 00:38:26.159
Because we're in series 4 now and they are...

571
00:38:26.159 --> 00:38:27.900
It's dealing with concerts going to go somewhere.

572
00:38:27.960 --> 00:38:29.340
It felt like it was planting a seed.

573
00:38:29.400 --> 00:38:29.579
Yeah.

574
00:38:29.639 --> 00:38:30.420
Yeah.

575
00:38:30.480 --> 00:38:31.019
Yeah.

576
00:38:31.019 --> 00:38:32.820
Do you know what?

577
00:38:32.880 --> 00:38:37.500
The more I watch four, the more the sadder I am that we didn't get five.

578
00:38:37.739 --> 00:38:41.219
And I don't think I'll say that, man, surprised, if I'm honest.

579
00:38:41.280 --> 00:38:42.599
No, no, no.

580
00:38:42.659 --> 00:38:45.119
I think I think it is a loss because this is fun.

581
00:38:45.179 --> 00:38:47.280
This is like movie of the week fun.

582
00:38:47.340 --> 00:38:50.460
Do you remember the way that DS 9 used to suggest scale?

583
00:38:50.519 --> 00:39:00.360
So you'd have, like, one person talking for a race, you'd have maybe one set for each planet and you'd go from planet to planet to planet.

584
00:39:00.420 --> 00:39:03.599
So they have 4 sets, but we're going to 4 planets, so that feels big.

585
00:39:03.659 --> 00:39:04.380
It feels vast.

586
00:39:04.440 --> 00:39:09.420
I really feel they've come on with suggesting we've got in this 3 party.

587
00:39:09.480 --> 00:39:18.420
You get desert location work. you were in the case, you're in the Vulcan Embassy, you're up on Enterprise, you've got space effects going on, you're in the Andorra and shit, like there's enough.

588
00:39:18.659 --> 00:39:23.460
There is enough visually to suggest this is taking place on a big scale.

589
00:39:23.519 --> 00:39:24.719
I really like that.

590
00:39:24.780 --> 00:39:26.639
Yeah, that's right.

591
00:39:26.760 --> 00:39:27.239
You said to me.

592
00:39:27.300 --> 00:39:28.199
Oh, this feels like a movie.

593
00:39:28.260 --> 00:39:29.699
And I was like, yeah, this really does.

594
00:39:29.760 --> 00:39:30.300
Okay.

595
00:39:30.360 --> 00:39:33.539
It's not, you know, doing it, pulling off the special effects of a movie.

596
00:39:33.659 --> 00:39:36.300
But it feels it feels beak like a movie.

597
00:39:36.360 --> 00:39:36.840
Yeah.

598
00:39:36.840 --> 00:39:52.619
Well, the way that the Star Trek movies felt big and the way that the Star Trek movies had the they were able to change the status quo, things were able to happen to the characters that changed the way the characters interacted and stuff.

599
00:39:52.679 --> 00:39:58.679
It's definitely there in the, like, we just talked about the writing quite a bit, but it's definitely there in the writing as well.

600
00:39:58.739 --> 00:40:00.059
They're just not thinking small.

601
00:40:00.119 --> 00:40:01.380
Yeah.

602
00:40:01.500 --> 00:40:05.519
I feel like the watchword for series 4 is big.

603
00:40:05.579 --> 00:40:06.960
Let's open this out a bit.

604
00:40:07.079 --> 00:40:08.219
Yeah, you know?

605
00:40:08.280 --> 00:40:10.860
Yeah, let's create a playground to play in.

606
00:40:10.920 --> 00:40:13.079
Not just this tiny ship going through space.

607
00:40:13.139 --> 00:40:17.639
And I mean, and still just lots of scenes of people standing in standing sets talking.

608
00:40:17.699 --> 00:40:18.539
Do you know what I mean?

609
00:40:18.599 --> 00:40:26.940
Like, it's still Star Trek and it's still TV, Star Trek, it's still 90s trek, even though it's taking place a bit later than that.

610
00:40:27.000 --> 00:40:32.699
Yeah, this, this, you know, like, oh, unless a man would have told me the truth, but we didn't see that happen.

611
00:40:32.760 --> 00:40:35.099
He just sort of stopped torturing him for some reason.

612
00:40:35.159 --> 00:40:37.380
It's surprising you know better to see it.

613
00:40:37.440 --> 00:40:40.980
The one scene with Dr. Flox is probably the weakest scene in the episode.

614
00:40:41.039 --> 00:40:42.719
That's quite rare, French surprise as well.

615
00:40:42.780 --> 00:40:43.860
Yeah.

616
00:40:43.860 --> 00:40:54.300
He's the character that sort of falls away a bit in series four, but I'm wondering if that's got something to do with Billingsley's very open criticism of season three at the time as well.

617
00:40:54.360 --> 00:40:55.199
Right.

618
00:40:56.760 --> 00:40:59.880
Yeah, he's Captain Shaw again.

619
00:40:59.940 --> 00:41:01.019
What is it?

620
00:41:01.019 --> 00:41:04.139
It's the salad.

621
00:41:04.199 --> 00:41:06.420
You know, the Vulcan salat?

622
00:41:06.480 --> 00:41:18.000
He starts, he starts shaking his feet long before, long before the, they're drawing the, the, um, the lightning bolts on screen.

623
00:41:18.059 --> 00:41:20.280
For those that can't see what we're seeing.

624
00:41:20.400 --> 00:41:23.820
We just saw some spectacular struck down by lightning acting.

625
00:41:23.880 --> 00:41:25.139
Yeah, yeah.

626
00:41:25.199 --> 00:41:26.519
It's pretty false.

627
00:41:26.579 --> 00:41:28.139
Looking like you're having a fit.

628
00:41:28.139 --> 00:41:45.119
But the great thing is too, remember when we were watching a mark time and we were saying, the designers this week, the stuff that they design is going to go on and continue being done and done again. you know, for decades in this stupid show.

629
00:41:45.179 --> 00:41:54.420
And these things that they're fighting with are exactly the things that Kirk and Spock are fighting with in a muck time in the, you know, that battle thing.

630
00:41:54.480 --> 00:41:57.659
Yeah, that might be why they look a bit shit.

631
00:41:58.079 --> 00:42:00.059
Yeah, let's have them.

632
00:42:00.119 --> 00:42:01.079
No, let's have them.

633
00:42:01.139 --> 00:42:02.940
They're more designed, I think.

634
00:42:03.000 --> 00:42:08.400
Oh, this so reminds me of the free par at the beginning of series 2, if there's not.

635
00:42:08.460 --> 00:42:09.239
You know, the siege.

636
00:42:09.239 --> 00:42:10.559
Oh, yeah.

637
00:42:10.679 --> 00:42:14.400
Because that ends with Kira going into the Council of Ministers.

638
00:42:14.460 --> 00:42:18.900
Just like Tapal has now to expose Robert Foxworth's character.

639
00:42:18.960 --> 00:42:22.619
But at the same time, there's tons of action going on as well around them.

640
00:42:23.039 --> 00:42:27.300
So, no, the Vulcans have the death penalty.

641
00:42:27.360 --> 00:42:28.679
Yeah.

642
00:42:29.340 --> 00:42:35.280
That shot there, you know, of the ship's the large ship coming straight over the camera like that.

643
00:42:35.340 --> 00:42:37.860
That reminded me a bit of Battle Star Galactica, you know.

644
00:42:37.920 --> 00:42:39.960
It's a good looking ship, I think.

645
00:42:41.159 --> 00:42:43.440
Let's not forget as well.

646
00:42:43.500 --> 00:42:46.380
This is the finale of a three-parter.

647
00:42:46.440 --> 00:42:51.840
Trek does not have a great Trek record of finishing its multi-episodes well.

648
00:42:51.900 --> 00:42:54.300
And I don't think this is a disappointment.

649
00:42:54.480 --> 00:43:06.179
No, because I think the thing that this season does really well is giving each episode a definite thing, right?

650
00:43:06.300 --> 00:43:14.340
So the 1st episode is the quest to find who blew up the embassy.

651
00:43:14.400 --> 00:43:21.599
The 2nd episode is us learning about the Cyranites and, you know, their opponents.

652
00:43:21.659 --> 00:43:23.820
And then this episode is this.

653
00:43:23.880 --> 00:43:27.420
See, this scene doesn't quite work, but they're really trying.

654
00:43:27.539 --> 00:43:32.159
So they've got one angle, we've got Archer in our planetary studio backdrop.

655
00:43:32.219 --> 00:43:33.179
Yeah, yeah.

656
00:43:33.179 --> 00:43:37.679
And then from the upper angle, we've got some, what do you call it?

657
00:43:37.739 --> 00:43:38.639
Big CG city.

658
00:43:38.699 --> 00:43:39.239
Yeah.

659
00:43:39.300 --> 00:43:41.880
They're sort of matted in in a very unconvincing way.

660
00:43:41.940 --> 00:43:43.260
Those ships are great.

661
00:43:43.320 --> 00:43:44.579
Look at those ships. aren't they?

662
00:43:44.579 --> 00:43:46.019
They look like mini DS loins.

663
00:43:46.079 --> 00:43:50.880
Well, those Vulcan ships with the circles in them, like that's a design thing.

664
00:43:50.940 --> 00:43:56.400
I don't know if it's from the original series, but it's certainly reoccursing Kurtzman Trek, where we see...

665
00:43:56.400 --> 00:43:57.420
But it feels big, doesn't it?

666
00:43:58.440 --> 00:44:00.000
fleets and Dorian ships.

667
00:44:00.059 --> 00:44:05.340
Enterprise is going to go between them and Tripp says, no, no, I'm going to try and buy some time because they're not going to fire on us.

668
00:44:05.460 --> 00:44:06.960
Then they start firing on them.

669
00:44:07.019 --> 00:44:08.940
It's actually fucking exciting for once.

670
00:44:09.000 --> 00:44:10.679
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's really good.

671
00:44:10.739 --> 00:44:17.400
But it feels like, like, one false move and this show might be damaged irreparably, you know, and that's exciting.

672
00:44:17.519 --> 00:44:28.079
Well, even just having the Vulcans fire on Starfleet is pretty amazing, I think. you think?

673
00:44:28.139 --> 00:44:28.980
Yeah.

674
00:44:29.039 --> 00:44:29.880
Oh yeah, yeah, for sure.

675
00:44:29.940 --> 00:44:30.599
For sure.

676
00:44:30.719 --> 00:44:33.480
This would not have happened under Bragger and Berman.

677
00:44:34.019 --> 00:44:36.179
Yeah, I mean, there's, yeah.

678
00:44:36.239 --> 00:44:40.739
I just don't think they were thinking along these lines, French fries.

679
00:44:41.880 --> 00:44:46.320
I kind of wish many character had come along in 3 in our 2 years, but never mind.

680
00:44:46.440 --> 00:44:46.980
Yeah.

681
00:44:47.039 --> 00:44:50.940
Well, I mean, in three, they do change the status quo though, don't they?

682
00:44:51.000 --> 00:44:52.559
Like they do change the status quo.

683
00:44:52.619 --> 00:44:57.059
They have an ongoing plot and they do a reasonable job of serialising.

684
00:44:57.179 --> 00:44:58.980
Like, I think they do a good job of serialising.

685
00:44:59.039 --> 00:45:11.579
I think what Manicoso realises, though, is we can't, we just do not have the show to do a season-long arc like that because it looks very odd then when we're off doing a Western and things like this when there's this weapon.

686
00:45:11.639 --> 00:45:15.420
So because let's do a series of mini arcs throughout the season that leads up to the conclusion.

687
00:45:15.480 --> 00:45:18.960
Yeah, but they're not just mini arts.

688
00:45:19.019 --> 00:45:22.440
Yeah, but there are elements from previous things that still go on.

689
00:45:22.500 --> 00:45:26.639
Like we still feel like that this is happening over a period of time that means something.

690
00:45:26.699 --> 00:45:28.440
But 3 wasn't doing that.

691
00:45:28.500 --> 00:45:30.659
Three rejected one and two.

692
00:45:30.659 --> 00:45:35.519
I went off into the Zindi expanse or whatever it was called. and just did their own thing.

693
00:45:35.579 --> 00:45:40.199
This feels like it's pulling together the show. and pushing it into the future.

694
00:45:40.559 --> 00:45:41.880
Yeah.

695
00:45:41.940 --> 00:45:44.219
God bless Malikoto.

696
00:45:44.280 --> 00:45:45.719
Did he do any more Star Trek after this?

697
00:45:45.780 --> 00:45:47.099
After Enterprise.

698
00:45:47.280 --> 00:45:49.380
I can't remember.

699
00:45:49.500 --> 00:45:52.800
Of course, we lost him like earlier this year, I think.

700
00:45:52.860 --> 00:45:55.500
I think he passed away fairly recently.

701
00:45:55.679 --> 00:46:19.079
But I'm sure that there are enough people around telling him how much they loved what he managed to do to Enterprise because it really is something, and I always sort of thought, I actually was a little bit suspicious of it because I've never really liked Enterprise, and then everyone comes along and says, oh, there's a whole three-part arc where we discover why the Klingons have smooth foreheads in original track, and I think, oh, great.

702
00:46:19.139 --> 00:46:20.460
That sounds really awesome.

703
00:46:20.519 --> 00:46:24.300
So, so I'd always been a bit suspicious of it.

704
00:46:24.360 --> 00:46:25.860
But actually watching it.

705
00:46:25.920 --> 00:46:28.079
I think it's really enjoyable.

706
00:46:28.139 --> 00:46:32.639
He produced the 1st 4 seasons of 24 after this.

707
00:46:32.699 --> 00:46:36.000
Oh, when it was interesting. absolute high.

708
00:46:36.059 --> 00:46:40.079
So let's let's have a moment for Manicoto. and clearly could put together a TV show.

709
00:46:40.139 --> 00:46:41.280
Sure.

710
00:46:41.340 --> 00:46:41.820
Yep.

711
00:46:42.360 --> 00:46:50.940
And it just it just goes to show this show desperately needed a fresh creative voice.

712
00:46:51.000 --> 00:46:51.179
Yeah.

713
00:46:51.239 --> 00:46:53.159
You know, that was the problem all along.

714
00:46:53.219 --> 00:46:59.039
Burman says that Enterprise didn't work because it was suffering from, what, Trek fatigue?

715
00:46:59.099 --> 00:46:59.820
No, no, no.

716
00:46:59.880 --> 00:47:02.159
We were suffering from Berman, fatigue.

717
00:47:02.219 --> 00:47:03.599
Berman, Virginia, yeah.

718
00:47:03.659 --> 00:47:06.719
Koto kind of proves that with this last season.

719
00:47:07.260 --> 00:47:10.320
That woman is an anarchist captain.

720
00:47:10.380 --> 00:47:12.300
I love that line.

721
00:47:12.360 --> 00:47:14.280
That was so interesting.

722
00:47:14.340 --> 00:47:15.300
That was so good.

723
00:47:17.099 --> 00:47:20.460
Oh that terrible design behind them.

724
00:47:20.519 --> 00:47:21.360
What is that?

725
00:47:21.420 --> 00:47:23.039
Yeah, I don't know.

726
00:47:23.039 --> 00:47:23.519
It used to be.

727
00:47:23.579 --> 00:47:26.639
It looks so cheap, this set, compared to everything.

728
00:47:26.699 --> 00:47:27.360
Yeah, doesn't it?

729
00:47:27.420 --> 00:47:29.880
It's not exactly where you want the denouement, is it?

730
00:47:29.940 --> 00:47:32.280
No, nobody's bit crap.

731
00:47:32.340 --> 00:47:33.960
Oh, here we go, though.

732
00:47:34.019 --> 00:47:37.920
We're going to have the lasers going up in the air now from the Kishara.

733
00:47:38.579 --> 00:47:40.980
Yeah, I think this is probably good.

734
00:47:41.760 --> 00:47:47.219
I kept expecting him to shoot it or something, like to pull out a gun and kind of shoot.

735
00:47:47.280 --> 00:47:49.260
Oh my god, I just saw that backdrop of the buildings.

736
00:47:49.320 --> 00:47:49.800
Did you think?

737
00:47:49.860 --> 00:47:52.079
Yeah, yeah, yeah. really not good.

738
00:47:52.139 --> 00:48:00.539
But it looks like a science fiction novel cover. you know, A Hugo Award-winning science fiction novel.

739
00:48:00.599 --> 00:48:02.940
Professor Bernie Somerville, New Adventure.

740
00:48:04.739 --> 00:48:06.659
Like you say it.

741
00:48:06.719 --> 00:48:10.920
Like we are forging our way to the Vulcans that we know and love in TRS.

742
00:48:10.980 --> 00:48:12.059
This all means something.

743
00:48:12.119 --> 00:48:13.199
This means something.

744
00:48:13.260 --> 00:48:16.079
Like, it means something to Star Trek fans.

745
00:48:16.139 --> 00:48:19.320
But let's be honest, we're the only people still watching it.

746
00:48:19.380 --> 00:48:20.219
We're the only people left.

747
00:48:20.280 --> 00:48:21.239
Yeah that's right.

748
00:48:21.300 --> 00:48:24.539
I think they know that though. you know, play to your audience.

749
00:48:24.599 --> 00:48:25.139
Yeah.

750
00:48:25.199 --> 00:48:30.000
Well, do you remember when, so we had that character, Arev or something?

751
00:48:30.059 --> 00:48:44.579
I can't remember his name, the guy who was Cyrin, the guy who led the Cyrinites, who meets them in the cave and then dies, and then he puts his hand on, um, on Archer's head and then says, remember in Vulcan.

752
00:48:44.639 --> 00:48:48.780
And so it's that moment from Roth of Khan, isn't it?

753
00:48:48.840 --> 00:48:50.880
Like that, that very moment.

754
00:48:51.539 --> 00:48:56.519
In Robert Foxworth's turn as Admiral Layton, right?

755
00:48:56.579 --> 00:49:13.019
He played that part for out, mostly very, not flat, but kind of considered, yeah. which means in the in the climax where Cisco bestsim, he finally loses his rag and he goes, it's not, oh, wow, then he bangs his fist down and it really makes you sit up because he's been so sort of.

756
00:49:13.139 --> 00:49:16.500
Whereas this fella has been sort of angry now for the last 3 scenes.

757
00:49:16.559 --> 00:49:18.360
It doesn't have the same impact at all.

758
00:49:18.420 --> 00:49:26.820
No, because he's like ordering massacres and stuff like that on religious minorities and things like he's really clearly not. destroy the entire city.

759
00:49:26.880 --> 00:49:30.239
No, I'd usually mind that sort of thing, but it's a bit weird coming from a Vulcan.

760
00:49:30.300 --> 00:49:31.679
Yeah, yeah.

761
00:49:31.739 --> 00:49:36.599
I say trip looks very dramatic there with the dry ice pumping away behind him.

762
00:49:37.199 --> 00:49:39.539
Well, it's really interesting.

763
00:49:39.599 --> 00:49:43.079
That look, though, is Tripp going, why are they not firing on us?

764
00:49:43.079 --> 00:49:44.400
How come that stopped?

765
00:49:44.460 --> 00:49:45.840
And I did like the fate.

766
00:49:46.920 --> 00:49:49.800
Well, we don't have to have the captain's log, although we do.

767
00:49:49.860 --> 00:49:52.619
We have a phase straight to Vulcan, so we're there, you know?

768
00:49:52.679 --> 00:49:53.880
Yeah, yeah.

769
00:49:56.940 --> 00:50:02.760
You and I have never, ever spoken with this much energy about Enterprise in this entire run of untitled Star Trek project.

770
00:50:02.820 --> 00:50:04.800
Yeah, it's pretty funny, isn't it?

771
00:50:04.860 --> 00:50:08.820
This has been, well, apart from a night in Sick Bay, which was pretty great.

772
00:50:08.880 --> 00:50:13.739
This has been, um, poor old once his face.

773
00:50:13.800 --> 00:50:15.539
Oh, I did like this, though.

774
00:50:15.599 --> 00:50:17.579
Yeah, I did too.

775
00:50:17.699 --> 00:50:20.219
He goes, look, I was only I was only doing it for your mother.

776
00:50:20.280 --> 00:50:21.119
Now she's gone.

777
00:50:21.179 --> 00:50:21.960
And she's dead.

778
00:50:22.019 --> 00:50:23.460
In fact, we talked all over that soon.

779
00:50:23.519 --> 00:50:28.199
I've got to say that seemed genuinely did sneak up on me and make me not choke up.

780
00:50:28.260 --> 00:50:30.659
Well, we didn't see her die.

781
00:50:30.780 --> 00:50:36.239
That happened last week in last week's episode, like in the...

782
00:50:36.239 --> 00:50:36.780
Awakening.

783
00:50:36.840 --> 00:50:38.219
Oh, okay, yeah, yeah.

784
00:50:38.280 --> 00:50:40.260
And I thought that that was really good.

785
00:50:40.320 --> 00:50:44.280
And Jolene got to do some acting and it was tremendous.

786
00:50:44.340 --> 00:50:46.500
Because I was both established.

787
00:50:46.559 --> 00:50:49.260
Yeah, and home and like you said, a few others after that.

788
00:50:49.320 --> 00:50:50.280
Yeah, yeah.

789
00:50:50.340 --> 00:50:54.239
Yeah, but it was just a very tender scene, wasn't it?

790
00:50:54.300 --> 00:50:56.099
Where she says, I've always been so proud of you.

791
00:50:56.159 --> 00:51:04.559
But all of the, even before that, their scenes together were super interesting and and I think they really worked.

792
00:51:04.619 --> 00:51:06.000
But Cos comes in.

793
00:51:06.059 --> 00:51:14.400
The trouble with Kos is that he's just got the worst fucking Nile on Vulcan wig and it's all you can look at in his scenes.

794
00:51:14.460 --> 00:51:22.619
It's so bad It's just unusual because I very rarely feel anything for enterprise, bar a crushing sense of disappointment.

795
00:51:22.679 --> 00:51:25.500
So to actually be moved by a scene.

796
00:51:25.559 --> 00:51:26.039
Yeah.

797
00:51:26.039 --> 00:51:27.420
What's happening?

798
00:51:27.719 --> 00:51:30.360
Are you sure I'm watching Enterprise?

799
00:51:30.420 --> 00:51:37.440
I was getting elderly Nemoy vibes from the priest who ends up with Surax cartridges then.

800
00:51:37.500 --> 00:51:38.639
We just see him from that.

801
00:51:38.699 --> 00:51:42.179
I was getting Scott Pacular going, oh, come on, I've got to try and get this vocal salute right.

802
00:51:42.239 --> 00:51:43.139
Can you do that?

803
00:51:43.199 --> 00:51:44.340
I can just do that. there you go.

804
00:51:44.400 --> 00:51:45.840
Yeah, it's super easy.

805
00:51:45.900 --> 00:51:46.860
Yeah, yeah.

806
00:51:46.920 --> 00:51:48.480
Yeah, what's wrong with people?

807
00:51:48.539 --> 00:51:50.519
Oh, no, please go.

808
00:51:50.579 --> 00:51:52.199
Look at that backdrop in the back.

809
00:51:52.380 --> 00:51:54.719
Just one more look.

810
00:51:54.780 --> 00:51:57.059
It's actually quite deco, isn't it, the city?

811
00:51:57.119 --> 00:51:59.219
I think it looks actually quite good in that backdrop.

812
00:51:59.280 --> 00:52:03.539
It is clearly a paper. had any sense of 3D depth to it.

813
00:52:03.840 --> 00:52:17.340
So you only get this tag scene, which we very nearly didn't have, like I said, because it was kind of like, um, uh, we we didn't have anyone who was going to deliver these lines.

814
00:52:17.820 --> 00:52:22.800
Did I tell you that I was spoiled that REv was was Cyrin?

815
00:52:22.860 --> 00:52:26.579
I mean, he clearly obviously was in episode two.

816
00:52:26.639 --> 00:52:35.639
But, uh, the Amazon Prime's subtitles, which subtitle it, I just gave his name.

817
00:52:35.639 --> 00:52:37.199
Oh, that's serious.

818
00:52:38.039 --> 00:52:41.519
Boy, lose Amazon Prime subtitles.

819
00:52:41.579 --> 00:52:42.119
Yeah.

820
00:52:42.119 --> 00:52:46.380
So the reunification of our people is only a matter of time.

821
00:52:46.440 --> 00:52:50.639
And I think that is clearly like, let's go somewhere with this, but it just never ends up happening.

822
00:52:50.699 --> 00:52:51.659
Well, it's a shame.

823
00:52:51.659 --> 00:52:56.340
That sort of unification between the Vulcans and the Romulas.

824
00:52:56.400 --> 00:52:57.239
We ever cover that again?

825
00:52:57.300 --> 00:53:00.000
It never comes up as far as I know.

826
00:53:00.119 --> 00:53:05.039
A bloody nerve of Star Trek discovery doing unification number three.

827
00:53:05.039 --> 00:53:06.840
Unification part three.

828
00:53:09.360 --> 00:53:11.699
This is enterprise.

829
00:53:11.760 --> 00:53:15.480
It is tying this bloody show into the fabric of Star Trek.

830
00:53:15.539 --> 00:53:17.099
It's so refreshing.

831
00:53:17.219 --> 00:53:29.039
And giving Star Trek history, like giving the Vulcans a history, making this a story about how the Vulcans go from being the sort of sort of slightly terrible people to being the Falcons that we know.

832
00:53:29.099 --> 00:53:34.619
So they're subject to the forces of history as much as we are and they grow the way that we do.

833
00:53:34.679 --> 00:53:42.420
What it's doing this season as well, is like before this, yeah, like the Zindi Arc, as we said, is basically something that everyone forgot about.

834
00:53:42.480 --> 00:53:44.579
A lot of fun, but everyone sort of forgot about it.

835
00:53:44.639 --> 00:53:51.000
The 1st 2 years, who gives a fuck about those people going out into space, we don't care about those people, that's not going to affect Star Trek in the future.

836
00:53:51.059 --> 00:53:54.599
This whole season, the formation of the federation, the Vulcans here.

837
00:53:54.659 --> 00:54:00.059
This is all stuff that is now in, you cannot tell the Star Trek story without these details in it.

838
00:54:00.119 --> 00:54:03.239
So this season is finally making enterprise count.

839
00:54:03.780 --> 00:54:06.300
Parata Manico, sorry.

840
00:54:06.360 --> 00:54:13.679
Yeah, but in a way that doesn't matter quite so much as the fact...

841
00:54:13.679 --> 00:54:26.639
It does, but I think that it's the willingness to change the status quo and to tell a continuous story and to let things have room to breathe and to give everything a bit of a scale.

842
00:54:26.760 --> 00:54:34.860
In, you know, the climax to season two, you know, when they tear the strip for America and murder all those people and all of that.

843
00:54:34.920 --> 00:54:37.559
And then we go off into the Zindie space and all that.

844
00:54:37.619 --> 00:54:39.539
And I was like, yeah, none of this is going to impact at all.

845
00:54:39.659 --> 00:54:50.400
This isn't changing the status quo because we're never going to do with any of this stuff, but we're now dealing with big, you know, galactic superpowers that we actually deal with in TOS and in 90s trek.

846
00:54:50.460 --> 00:54:51.000
Yeah.

847
00:54:51.599 --> 00:54:51.780
Yeah.

848
00:54:51.840 --> 00:54:54.300
Do you know what it reminds me of?

849
00:54:54.360 --> 00:55:03.719
This is super weird, but it actually reminds me of the most recent series of the Orville, which I still haven't seen that.

850
00:55:04.320 --> 00:55:04.860
Yeah.

851
00:55:04.920 --> 00:55:06.360
It does the same thing.

852
00:55:06.420 --> 00:55:14.159
So it is not super long, but it has episodes that are quite long, like that are sometimes like 2 hours and stuff.

853
00:55:14.219 --> 00:55:16.320
Like each individual episode is quite long.

854
00:55:16.380 --> 00:55:20.579
They're like little miniature movies and they change the status quo.

855
00:55:20.639 --> 00:55:26.820
We see that things change and every individual story has that sort of scale.

856
00:55:26.880 --> 00:55:30.420
And I think that that's what makes this good.

857
00:55:30.480 --> 00:55:42.900
Like, it's extra good for us because it's plugging into Star Trek history and, you know, becoming a sort of just so story about how we got to where we are when the whole show starts in 1966.

858
00:55:43.559 --> 00:55:52.980
But I think that in itself, it's a more entertaining, more ambitious show that's doing more fun things than it ever has been before.

859
00:55:53.039 --> 00:55:56.039
And that's really why I enjoyed it, I think.

860
00:55:56.099 --> 00:55:58.800
The only thing they've got left to do now.

861
00:55:58.860 --> 00:56:02.099
Yeah, it's to start laughing at themselves a bit more.

862
00:56:02.219 --> 00:56:15.780
And actually, like I said to you, they get there in that two-parter in the alternative universe, at the end of series four, they just suddenly, you can feel the actors visibly relaxing as they're having incredible fun.

863
00:56:15.840 --> 00:56:17.699
And it's like, well, that's it.

864
00:56:17.820 --> 00:56:20.400
I'm sorry, they're having far too much fun on Enterprise.

865
00:56:20.460 --> 00:56:21.719
Cancel the show.

866
00:56:21.780 --> 00:56:22.320
All the plug.

867
00:56:31.380 --> 00:56:37.679
All right, it's the end of the episode, and so it's time for us to pick what we're going to be watching next.

868
00:56:37.739 --> 00:56:40.260
Keshara was my excellent choice.

869
00:56:40.320 --> 00:56:43.019
Yeah, finally you've chosen an excellent choice.

870
00:56:43.679 --> 00:56:46.800
So it's your turn to wreck it all for us.

871
00:56:46.980 --> 00:56:48.840
I was on a great run.

872
00:56:48.900 --> 00:56:50.519
Now I'm going to choose a stinker.

873
00:56:50.579 --> 00:56:52.380
Yeah, maybe we're swapping.

874
00:56:52.440 --> 00:56:54.480
I'm going to do something I haven't done for a little while.

875
00:56:54.539 --> 00:56:55.679
Okay.

876
00:56:55.679 --> 00:56:57.179
That's put in all the shows.

877
00:56:57.239 --> 00:57:05.639
Now, I realise this does tip the randomiser in 90s Treks favour, and we have done a fair bit of 90s lately, but unfortunately, there's a lot of it.

878
00:57:05.699 --> 00:57:07.019
We've got to get through it.

879
00:57:07.079 --> 00:57:07.619
Really years.

880
00:57:07.980 --> 00:57:10.079
Here we go.

881
00:57:10.139 --> 00:57:12.360
Ooh.

882
00:57:13.139 --> 00:57:18.960
Your random Star Voyager episode is season six, episode 22.

883
00:57:19.559 --> 00:57:21.239
News.

884
00:57:21.420 --> 00:57:24.960
Oh, I really like news.

885
00:57:25.079 --> 00:57:26.940
I think we should do it.

886
00:57:27.000 --> 00:57:28.920
Yeah, I'm wondering if we should as well.

887
00:57:28.980 --> 00:57:31.199
Last time we did season six.

888
00:57:31.260 --> 00:57:34.800
It was those dreadful ball kids coming on the ship.

889
00:57:34.860 --> 00:57:35.340
Do you remember?

890
00:57:35.460 --> 00:57:38.039
We didn't say anything nice.

891
00:57:38.280 --> 00:57:49.019
I think the thing that interests me the most about this is that the drama that they're doing is based on ancient Greek drama.

892
00:57:49.079 --> 00:57:50.039
I think it is.

893
00:57:50.039 --> 00:57:51.420
Yeah.

894
00:57:51.480 --> 00:58:19.500
And so that form of storytelling and that very stylised thing, because the Greeks, as far as Europe's concerned, the Greeks invent drama, and it starts off very stylised, so we're in a drama, that's now being told in this other, in this other mode by sort of long speeches from just a small number of actors and a chorus and stuff like that.

895
00:58:19.559 --> 00:58:23.760
And I just remember that being really properly interesting.

896
00:58:23.820 --> 00:58:30.719
She starts telling them about the Voyager exploits and they start putting those on as plays.

897
00:58:30.780 --> 00:58:34.320
I seem to remember in the great style with a court.

898
00:58:34.380 --> 00:58:35.159
It's really wonderful.

899
00:58:35.219 --> 00:58:39.539
And our darling Tom Solinski was not impressed by this at all.

900
00:58:39.599 --> 00:58:42.360
So here's an opportunity for us to tell us why he was wrong.

901
00:58:43.739 --> 00:58:44.579
Okay, that'll be fun too.

902
00:58:44.639 --> 00:58:45.539
Excellent.

903
00:58:53.639 --> 00:58:58.920
You've been listening to untitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford and Nathan Bottomley.

904
00:58:58.920 --> 00:59:05.280
We're online at Untitled Star Trek Project.com, where you can find subscription links and links to our social media accounts.

905
00:59:05.340 --> 00:59:10.920
Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceran, and the theme was composed by Cameron Lam.

906
00:59:10.980 --> 00:59:17.099
This episode was recorded on the 24th of October 2023 and released on the 27th of October.

907
00:59:17.159 --> 00:59:20.880
We'll see you next time for Star Trek Voyager news.

908
00:59:38.940 --> 00:59:40.260
Oh, that's a good choice.

909
00:59:40.320 --> 00:59:41.639
That's a good choice.

910
00:59:41.760 --> 00:59:42.420
Yeah, that'll be good.

911
00:59:42.480 --> 00:59:43.739
Yeah, that turned out.

912
00:59:43.860 --> 00:59:47.639
I'll basically shut up during that episode because I think you're going to have a lot to say.

913
00:59:49.380 --> 00:59:54.480
Yeah, I remember being hugely impressed by that just because it was...

914
00:59:54.539 --> 00:59:55.440
Do you know what surrounds it?

915
00:59:55.500 --> 01:00:00.059
All in a deck 12 fury, all this bullshit they were doing.

916
01:00:00.119 --> 01:00:04.139
In the middle, there's this very smart, very interesting script.

917
01:00:04.559 --> 01:00:10.199
Yeah, and it's a thing about Voyager. like it's a show about Voyager, isn't it?

918
01:00:10.260 --> 01:00:16.019
It would be nice to do another B'lana episode because the only one we've done so far is the 1st one we did lineage.

919
01:00:16.079 --> 01:00:20.460
Did you notice that Roxanne directed one of those episodes?

920
01:00:20.699 --> 01:00:26.820
You didn't have to tell me that somebody that got their education from 90s Trek directed that middle episode.

921
01:00:26.940 --> 01:00:28.079
Arcatel.

922
01:00:28.139 --> 01:00:36.840
I saw her name, but as I was watching it, I was going, yep, that's the same filters as 90s Trek. caves are being shot in the same sort of way.

923
01:00:36.900 --> 01:00:40.800
And then in the last episode, it was like a current director again. you know the pace was moving.

924
01:00:40.860 --> 01:00:43.019
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

925
01:00:43.079 --> 01:00:45.659
Yeah, no, I'm glad she was still working on it.

926
01:00:45.719 --> 01:00:49.739
That's pretty good She's done tons of work since...

927
01:00:49.800 --> 01:00:52.320
I don't think she, but mostly in like genre television.

928
01:00:52.380 --> 01:00:53.460
I know she did some smallville.

929
01:00:53.699 --> 01:00:55.199
Oh, okay.

930
01:00:55.199 --> 01:00:56.760
I think she's been busy.

931
01:00:56.820 --> 01:01:02.579
But I really like B'lana and I really like Roxanne Dawson performance.

932
01:01:02.639 --> 01:01:03.539
So it would be nice.

933
01:01:03.599 --> 01:01:04.019
Me too.

934
01:01:04.019 --> 01:01:06.840
And season 6 with Barge of the Dead and News.

935
01:01:06.900 --> 01:01:11.460
It's the season where they remembered how good that character is and gave a great stuff to do.

936
01:01:11.519 --> 01:01:13.440
So it'd be nice to talk about that as well.

937
01:01:13.860 --> 01:01:21.239
Like, when we, like, I think we like the actors in DS9 better than any other 90s trek.

938
01:01:21.300 --> 01:01:27.420
Like just when you talk about the people named in the opening credits. you know what I mean?

939
01:01:27.480 --> 01:01:44.519
Like, you've got some pretty incredible people, but then you think about Voyager and it, you know, like, it's got Kate, Ethan Phillips, it's got, it's got, um, Tim Russ, you know, it's got Roxanne. like those are not bad.

940
01:01:44.940 --> 01:01:47.280
It's got Jerry, isn't it?

941
01:01:47.340 --> 01:01:49.019
They're just not given the opportunities.

942
01:01:49.079 --> 01:01:50.219
That's the annoying.

943
01:01:50.280 --> 01:01:53.760
Whereas on DSI, they can't mostly...

944
01:01:53.820 --> 01:01:56.400
So did we get the best out of them?

945
01:01:56.460 --> 01:01:57.659
Probably not Voyager.

946
01:01:57.719 --> 01:01:58.380
No.

947
01:01:58.440 --> 01:02:01.079
Yeah, well, like, yeah.

948
01:02:01.139 --> 01:02:08.940
And like even that the Tuvog thing last week where it was all about, you know, how he had no emotions and couldn't feel emotions.

949
01:02:09.000 --> 01:02:13.199
And like even on enterprise, they know that that's not what Vulcans are.

950
01:02:13.260 --> 01:02:17.519
You know, that they have to work hard to keep their emotions in check.

951
01:02:17.880 --> 01:02:22.500
And that's so much more interesting. they look for moments.

952
01:02:22.559 --> 01:02:28.019
They're just, like, they're not given moments, so they like, it's a bit like Colin Baker in the, in the 80s.

953
01:02:28.079 --> 01:02:31.500
He's trying desperately to find moments of humour and things, aren't they?

954
01:02:32.099 --> 01:02:34.019
I tried the line the other day, you know.

955
01:02:34.079 --> 01:02:37.619
I was taking a bath and I tried the, but I did it in Kate Mulgary's voice.

956
01:02:37.679 --> 01:02:40.440
You know, when she's in the bath and she goes, how did you put your leg up?

957
01:02:40.500 --> 01:02:42.059
She goes, Chakotay, are you there?

958
01:02:42.119 --> 01:02:44.699
So I went, Mark, are you there?

959
01:02:44.760 --> 01:02:45.539
Fly out.

960
01:02:45.539 --> 01:02:47.460
A very odd look.

961
01:02:47.519 --> 01:02:48.300
I was like, oh.

962
01:02:48.300 --> 01:02:52.019
And yes, you can put that in the end if you like.

963
01:02:52.260 --> 01:02:54.840
Don't you worry, it's in the end.

964
01:02:56.400 --> 01:03:06.480
Yeah, she's listening to me at Star Trek Enterprise, Crossing Jordan, Cold Case, Heroes, the Mentalists, Agents of Shield, Mercy Street, the Juice, Foundation.

965
01:03:06.539 --> 01:03:07.139
She hasn't stopped.

966
01:03:07.260 --> 01:03:08.820
Foundation.

967
01:03:08.880 --> 01:03:09.840
Yeah.

968
01:03:10.380 --> 01:03:15.780
Both Robert and Brendan really like Foundation.

969
01:03:15.840 --> 01:03:17.820
And so it's Apple TV.

970
01:03:17.880 --> 01:03:20.400
It looks amazing, apparently.

971
01:03:20.460 --> 01:03:23.340
Like it's amazingly weird looking sci-fi.

972
01:03:23.400 --> 01:03:25.199
I'm just put off that.

973
01:03:25.260 --> 01:03:26.880
Oh my god, she did lost the OC.

974
01:03:27.000 --> 01:03:28.440
Wow.

975
01:03:28.500 --> 01:03:30.659
The mentalist, I quite like that.

976
01:03:30.719 --> 01:03:31.619
Prime suspect.

977
01:03:31.679 --> 01:03:33.480
Prime suspect.

978
01:03:33.539 --> 01:03:34.980
The British show.

979
01:03:35.039 --> 01:03:36.300
English one, surely.

980
01:03:36.420 --> 01:03:37.559
No.

981
01:03:37.559 --> 01:03:38.460
Tap on the link.

982
01:03:38.519 --> 01:03:40.139
Oh, the American version.

983
01:03:40.260 --> 01:03:41.340
Yeah, okay.

984
01:03:41.400 --> 01:03:42.239
Under the dome.

985
01:03:42.300 --> 01:03:43.679
I remember people talking about that the time.

986
01:03:43.739 --> 01:03:45.659
Three episodes of Ancient of Shield.

987
01:03:45.719 --> 01:03:47.400
Oh, Revolution. was terrible.

988
01:03:50.219 --> 01:03:53.699
She literally, look, she literally has not stops.

989
01:03:53.760 --> 01:03:55.500
Like, oh, good for her.

990
01:03:55.559 --> 01:03:56.340
That's happy.

991
01:03:56.400 --> 01:03:56.760
I like that.

992
01:03:56.820 --> 01:03:59.340
She should come back to Star Trek?

993
01:03:59.400 --> 01:04:00.179
No, she should.

994
01:04:00.239 --> 01:04:01.860
They've still got Jonathan.

995
01:04:01.920 --> 01:04:03.900
You should do more acting though.

996
01:04:03.960 --> 01:04:05.699
She's a good actress, Roxanne Dawson.

997
01:04:05.760 --> 01:04:05.940
Yeah.

998
01:04:07.860 --> 01:04:11.099
I always remember the bit where in...

999
01:04:11.099 --> 01:04:13.800
The scene, the episode in series 3.

1000
01:04:14.820 --> 01:04:21.420
Well, I'd almost written off series 3 at that and then she got that episode where she was having those holocaust flashbacks.

1001
01:04:21.539 --> 01:04:27.840
There's been like violations, but it was like a running storyline that was taking place in a red, but she's playing the character.

1002
01:04:28.559 --> 01:04:32.400
Who. was against it.

1003
01:04:32.460 --> 01:04:39.960
And at the end, she has to go into, she has to publicly declare that their people are gonna wipe out a race of people.

1004
01:04:40.019 --> 01:04:48.360
And as written, it's okay, as acted, it's so powerful the way she, the way she does it.

1005
01:04:48.480 --> 01:04:51.840
Is it like, in a light where she's...

1006
01:04:51.840 --> 01:04:54.179
A bit like that...

1007
01:04:54.239 --> 01:05:00.000
But it's a bit like violations as well because it's this group of innocent appearing aliens on the ship.

1008
01:05:00.239 --> 01:05:01.619
Right.

1009
01:05:01.679 --> 01:05:05.880
And then you've got to try and figure out who's given the visions, you know, as a vision of the episode.

1010
01:05:05.940 --> 01:05:07.500
So it's like a procedural as well going on.

1011
01:05:07.559 --> 01:05:08.579
Right, right.

1012
01:05:08.639 --> 01:05:09.300
It's a good episode.

1013
01:05:09.360 --> 01:05:10.079
What's that one called?

1014
01:05:10.440 --> 01:05:12.000
Remember.

1015
01:05:12.059 --> 01:05:13.679
Oh, okay.

1016
01:05:13.739 --> 01:05:14.280
Remember.

1017
01:05:14.340 --> 01:05:14.820
Yeah.

1018
01:05:14.880 --> 01:05:22.619
It's like the, um, What they're talking about is a bit obvious, and then the scripting is all a bit obvious.

1019
01:05:22.739 --> 01:05:26.579
There's a sequence where somebody is, you know, tortured and burned and all that.

1020
01:05:26.639 --> 01:05:30.900
But her performance is really sensitive throughout the whole thing.

1021
01:05:31.079 --> 01:05:33.000
Yeah, she's good.

1022
01:05:33.000 --> 01:05:33.599
Yeah, she's good.

1023
01:05:33.659 --> 01:05:38.639
And then they give them bullshit like drive, you know, the space waves episode and things like that.

1024
01:05:38.699 --> 01:05:41.760
They pair up with the worst, Robert.

1025
01:05:41.820 --> 01:05:49.079
And that's the other person I didn't mention. giving a list of people who are great on Voyager and Robert Picardo, who is also just absolutely incredible.

1026
01:05:49.139 --> 01:05:49.679
Yeah.

1027
01:05:49.739 --> 01:05:54.420
Yeah, so maybe, but then you have got Garrett Wang and Robert Beltran.

1028
01:05:54.480 --> 01:05:57.239
Although I think there's a Garrett Wang and Robert Beltran in DS9.

1029
01:05:57.420 --> 01:05:58.800
No.

1030
01:05:58.860 --> 01:06:00.179
Or a worst Robert.

1031
01:06:00.780 --> 01:06:03.179
Oh, Robert, don't commit.

1032
01:06:03.239 --> 01:06:04.679
Yeah, so there's three, isn't it?

1033
01:06:04.739 --> 01:06:07.440
There's 3 and I think Ethan Philip has his off days.

1034
01:06:07.500 --> 01:06:12.300
Well, he's got a bit of a thankless character, which I think he does a pretty good job.

1035
01:06:12.360 --> 01:06:16.320
Remember the world where he gets his own daytime television show.

1036
01:06:19.199 --> 01:06:21.599
I can't imagine anything worse.

1037
01:06:21.599 --> 01:06:22.199
That's early on.

1038
01:06:22.320 --> 01:06:28.320
That is the episode where Michael Jonas is exposed as contacted Cisco.

1039
01:06:28.380 --> 01:06:29.219
Oh, see, there you go.

1040
01:06:29.219 --> 01:06:32.400
Because nearly he has to uncover it via his chat show.

1041
01:06:32.460 --> 01:06:32.699
Yeah.

1042
01:06:33.059 --> 01:06:36.960
See, that's awesome. should do that.

1043
01:06:37.019 --> 01:06:40.500
Oh my god, I love series 2 of Voyager.

1044
01:06:40.559 --> 01:06:42.360
Yeah, so much fun.

1045
01:06:42.420 --> 01:06:43.440
So much fun.