WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-05-01 at 21:57:58

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Hey, Joe. Hi.

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So, we are having an unusual experience today, and that is

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watching an episode of Enterprise that both of us thought was

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pretty good.

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Yeah, I've got some sort of hyperbole for you straight off.

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What the hell is this?

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Character drama.

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Special effects, politicking.

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Like, where's this been for the last 4 years?

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Yeah, so I watched about the 1st 5 episodes of series 4 on a plane

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one time.

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I can't remember exactly.

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And I really liked it, and I think the reason is that it

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serialised not just in a sort of series of trilogies, but

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throughout the thing, and that seems to give it a bigger scope.

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Some things happen in this trilogy that are taken from the movies

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rather than from TV Star Trek, you know.

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And so it has that sort of scale.

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And that's really fun.

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I thought that that was really interesting.

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In the 1st 2 seasons of Enterprise, I feel as if the only thing

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that matters is the starship enterprise.

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Suddenly, we're on a wider canvas.

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We're doing the DS9 thing of actually looking at what's around

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us.

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And a lot of this, you know.

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I know our regulars, well, our key regulars get a lot to do, but

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actually a lot of this is given over to interesting guest

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characters, you know, and races that we don't often spend a lot of

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time with.

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I really like that.

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I really like that sort of fleshing out of what, it's not even

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called the alpha quadrant at this point, is it?

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No, but yes.

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Yeah, yeah.

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The universe.

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Yeah, it's funny, isn't it?

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Because, you know, there's that thing that they said where they

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wanted series one to end with the launch of enterprise and for it

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to be about the sort of politics of this version of Earth.

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And I always thought that was a terrible idea because I just

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thought they wouldn't have been able to pull it off.

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And I still think that's right.

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But there's something there.

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Isn't there?

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Like, it's not a completely terrible idea because this is a

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version of enterprise that investigates the world before original

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Star Trek.

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And so we have Tellerites, and we have Andorians, and we have

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Vulcans, and what this trilogy does.

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So we're watching Keshara, which is about episode 9 of series 4.

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And what's happening here is that the version of the Vulcans that

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we always disliked and all of the complaints we had about the

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Vulcans in episodes like stigma, for instance, in broken bow.

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It was one of the things I didn't like about Broken Bow, was the

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relationship between humanity and Vulcan was so adversaryal. was

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kind of nasty in both directions.

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They address that here.

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And characters that we didn't like in Broken Bow come are coming

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good now.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Well, I actually think that it was always wrong.

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Like, it was always the intention.

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This isn't just Manikoto coming along and saying, well, let's say

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all the things that are wrong with the Vulcans in enterprise

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because they've been led the wrong way and they've lost sight of

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Surak's teachings, because that was already there, wasn't it, in

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things like stigma, around the fact that they couldn't mind meld

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that that was sort of shameful and frowned upon.

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And so they're not our Vulcans and something is wrong with them.

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And so here we get that addressed and we get the start of a

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change.

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And it looks like, it looks to me like they're planning to do

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something in series 5 because there is a sort of low-key

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cliffhanger to this episode.

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And so perhaps we get to learn more about why exactly the Falcans

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have been so bad for so long.

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It's the one thing that irritated me about this.

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I was like, well, why is Robert Foxworth doing all of this?

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We don't really probe under the skin and find out what his motive

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is.

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And then when the Romulans come in in the last minute, I'm like, oh

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okay. that's clever And well, it's like you said as well.

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The last 2 parcel that we've already covered.

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Terra Prime, and I can't remember the other one now.

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Demons.

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Thank you.

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Demons and Terra Prime, that is all centred around, you know

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starting the Federation, bringing these worlds together.

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All of these trilogies in series 4 are leading up to that moment.

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And I know we don't quite get there in Terra Prime because they

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will wait.

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I think series 5 was where that was going to happen.

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That was really going to play out in series five.

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But it's all of the jigsaw pieces sort of being put on the table

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ready for it to pay off.

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The unfortunate thing is we didn't get the payoff.

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No, no.

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But we do have fun along the way, and I do think that this is a

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version of enterprise that's different from what the previous 2

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versions that we have, and he's better than both of them.

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This is a version of Enterprise, that is infinitely superior to

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anything that has come before.

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One, because it's just fucking watchable for a star.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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But two, this, no, I said to you, I was messaging you while I was

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watching it, so there were a lot of sort of DS9 parallels as I was

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watching it.

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And how this 3 parter is structured reminded me so much of a DS9 2

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or 3 parter in that the 1st episode, it's sort of all focussed on

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the Vulcans and we go down on the planet and there's a bombing

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there's a bombing in improbable cause, which leads us to, you know

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Cardassia and all of that.

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And then at the end of episode two, it opens out, you think it's

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just going to be set around the Vulcans.

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It opens out.

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No, no, no, they're going to invade Andoria.

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We're off to Andoria now.

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This has taken place on our vast galactic scale, which is exactly

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what happened in, guess what?

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improbable cause, where at the end of that, they said, right, we're

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going to go and attack the Dominion.

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We've got a Romulan Cardassian fleet and we're off there.

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And I was like, yeah, do you know what?

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They've looked at something that works in the past and said, we're

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going to have a bit of that.

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What's better here?

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And I think it's probably the only thing that's better here is

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they've got a bit more money.

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I think the special effects and how this is realised is a bit more

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spectacular.

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Yeah a bit more.

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In fact, you even get you even get a torture scene in this episode

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which is what happens in the Dyer's cast when Garrett tortures

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Odo.

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So this is almost like Enterprises version of that two-parter.

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It doesn't quite have the rich characters.

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I think that's the one thing that's lacking it.

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But what ends up happening too is that they are prepared to change

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the status quo?

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And in our last episode, we complained that Voyager wasn't willing

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to do that and that that was a real problem because it just felt

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like everyone had their memory wiped every week and, you know, a

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new thing happened.

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They weren't willing to change the status quo with a romance.

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The simplest of things.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, and so here we get a complete change and we get like at the

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beginning of the 1st episode.

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So this is part 3 of the Vulcan trilogy.

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The 1st episode's called The Forge.

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The 2nd one's Awakening, and then this one's Kishara.

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And at the beginning of the forge, a character from the 1st

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episode is killed.

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Is that right?

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He hasn't been appearing at Enterprise ever since then. in every

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season.

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Yeah, and so he's a big deal.

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And we get this focus on Soval, who is the sort of Vulcan

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antagonist and has been in it a lot as well, I gather.

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And that kind of gives this some character motivation as well

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because Arch is angry because his friend has died.

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But actually not angry in a pissy way where we, you know, in the

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way normally is, where we don't like him.

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He's just got a genuine reason to sort of go and sort this out, we

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go down to the forge, which I thought was brilliantly realised.

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They were out in a desert somewhere. and to Paul's mother is

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there.

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So there we've got more character work taking place.

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She's been established earlier in the season.

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This is a level that Enterprise has not been working on before

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this.

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No.

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Well, even the marriage, you know, like, I thought the marriage

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was really interesting.

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And this, like, we'll get to it, but it's paid off brilliantly in

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this episode.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, it's very good.

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Like, I think it's working.

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They're remembering what happens each week.

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This is a thing that happens week to week and it starts right from

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the beginning of series 4.

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And frankly, series 3 worked like that as well, but it was kind of

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grim and miserable.

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It was very, very... comic book, wasn't it?

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It's basically we're going to have tons of action and suspense and

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atmosphere with big comic book villains, which, you know, a lot

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of...

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This is very comic book, but it's sort of treated a bit more

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seriously, isn't it?

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It's all well...

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Yeah.

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We'll get that because I think that this is very cartoony and it

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doesn't really tell us anything particularly interesting about

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Vulcan society or faith or logic or anything at all.

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So it's not about anything in any kind of thoughtful sense, but

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it's just about being sort of terribly entertaining and I think

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that's probably enough.

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What it lacks.

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Uh, and we talked about this off mic as well is humour.

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So it's all treated incredibly seriously, and that's not a bad

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thing.

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Like we said, it's very entertaining to watch, but I think

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somewhere around Way of the Warrior.

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DS9 decided, you know what?

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This show will work better.

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If we take it on a grand scale and we have a ton of fun with the

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characters as well, you know.

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So you can have an episode like The Changing Face of Evil, where

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the defiance destroyed, wind stabbing people and, you know, the

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Cardassians are inciting rebellion, but in the same breath, Cisco's

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appalled because his peppers have been burned.

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You know, like, and that's really fun to watch.

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That mixing it up is really fun to watch.

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But the villains in this were all very, like the Roberts

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Fosworth's character was very serious.

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Whereas when think about Wyun, you know, in TS9, who you...

220
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Well, even comparing Weiyun to Shran.

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You know, Shan is a much less interesting villain than Wayoon, much

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less K. best thing in this show bar mile, though.

223
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Yeah, he is very good.

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Incredibly watchable.

225
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Well, we should probably watch the thing, you know.

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We've kind of discussed it in some depth now.

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Yeah.

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All right.

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In that case, I will count us in.

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Five, four, three, two, one.

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And we're off.

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Oh, you know, I thought that CGI explosion of the embassy going up

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was actually rather impressive.

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Yeah, it is very cartoony, but that's what we get.

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I had to break it to you.

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But CGI is in the cartoon phase at the moment, right?

237
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Yeah, it is.

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So, our antagonist at the moment is, um, Robert Foxworth is

239
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Velasse, and he is the head of Falcon.

240
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That was him.

241
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No, I didn't recognise him.

242
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He is Layton, Admiral Layton, in DS9?

243
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Paradise Lost, yeah.

244
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Yeah, which this owes something to as well.

245
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I think Paradise lost him this. pretty soon, where a terrorist

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attack, you know, is blamed on people that we're worried about and

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you know, we're looking at a security force that's overreaching

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and stuff.

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Interestingly, in Paradise Lost, it's the moment where Robert

250
00:11:40.799 --> 00:11:44.220
Foxworth orders one federation ship to far on another, which has

251
00:11:44.220 --> 00:11:44.879
never happened before.

252
00:11:44.940 --> 00:11:48.600
And in this, you have in order that the Falcans do it and you have

253
00:11:48.600 --> 00:11:50.940
the same sort of, they're not going to go there, are they?

254
00:11:51.000 --> 00:11:51.299
You know?

255
00:11:51.419 --> 00:11:53.879
But Robert Foxworth.

256
00:11:53.940 --> 00:11:59.580
The human admiral is kind of sexy in a way that these guys...

257
00:11:59.639 --> 00:12:01.440
Yeah, the hair is bad.

258
00:12:01.440 --> 00:12:04.440
Like the eyebrows aren't doing him any favours.

259
00:12:04.500 --> 00:12:06.179
I did think it was a good performance.

260
00:12:06.240 --> 00:12:09.840
I think all that was what was really lacking was, like I said

261
00:12:09.840 --> 00:12:12.179
earlier, a motivation, a character, really.

262
00:12:12.240 --> 00:12:13.980
He's got a sort of plot function.

263
00:12:14.100 --> 00:12:17.460
But I couldn't really figure out why he was doing all of this.

264
00:12:17.519 --> 00:12:18.659
No.

265
00:12:18.720 --> 00:12:22.500
And I think that's the problem there, because we're operating on a

266
00:12:22.500 --> 00:12:23.399
cartoon level.

267
00:12:23.460 --> 00:12:28.080
There's no real depth to the, to thinking about what it is that

268
00:12:28.080 --> 00:12:29.700
made the Vulcans go wrong.

269
00:12:29.759 --> 00:12:34.860
And the answer in the last 2 minutes is the Romulans, which is a

270
00:12:34.860 --> 00:12:36.120
kind of boring answer.

271
00:12:36.179 --> 00:12:37.980
Oh I love that.

272
00:12:38.039 --> 00:12:39.659
Yeah, I think it's boring.

273
00:12:39.779 --> 00:12:43.200
I love this as well, where they mention the Indy technology and

274
00:12:43.200 --> 00:12:45.120
say the Andorans have Zindy technology.

275
00:12:45.179 --> 00:12:47.100
The episode that we did, right?

276
00:12:47.159 --> 00:12:50.159
Proving ground. the last time we saw Shran.

277
00:12:50.220 --> 00:12:53.460
Taking stuff from the past. and using it now.

278
00:12:53.519 --> 00:12:54.779
God damn it.

279
00:12:54.840 --> 00:12:57.240
And surprised it took you 4 years, but we're finally here.

280
00:12:57.299 --> 00:12:57.720
Yeah.

281
00:12:57.720 --> 00:12:58.980
Yeah.

282
00:12:59.039 --> 00:13:02.399
And stuff from the Zindi arc as well, which is a weird arc in that

283
00:13:02.399 --> 00:13:03.779
really nothing comes from it.

284
00:13:03.840 --> 00:13:06.659
You know, it's part of the canon, but it doesn't affect anything

285
00:13:06.659 --> 00:13:07.559
very much.

286
00:13:07.620 --> 00:13:11.279
The Zindy get an occasional throwaway mention in lower decks.

287
00:13:11.340 --> 00:13:13.379
Even it was the greatest threat to the earth ever.

288
00:13:13.440 --> 00:13:16.679
No one ever mentions it again. once again. that's right.

289
00:13:16.740 --> 00:13:19.620
Do you remember the great Zindi threat?

290
00:13:20.039 --> 00:13:20.820
Yeah.

291
00:13:20.879 --> 00:13:23.399
I got the impression that it was because they were kind of ruining

292
00:13:23.399 --> 00:13:24.539
the timeline or something.

293
00:13:25.200 --> 00:13:27.840
Doesn't it happen at the end when they go off to Nazi occupied

294
00:13:27.840 --> 00:13:29.460
America or something?

295
00:13:29.519 --> 00:13:31.379
Yeah, I can't remember now.

296
00:13:31.440 --> 00:13:32.340
Oh here we go.

297
00:13:32.700 --> 00:13:37.980
I did sing the opening credits.

298
00:13:38.039 --> 00:13:38.700
Yeah, yeah.

299
00:13:38.700 --> 00:13:40.980
So I watched all 3 episodes and sang each time.

300
00:13:41.039 --> 00:13:42.659
It's been a long.

301
00:13:42.659 --> 00:13:44.279
Sorry, I can't help it.

302
00:13:44.340 --> 00:13:47.759
There's there's one thing that I thought was really good.

303
00:13:47.820 --> 00:13:53.100
I think it must be Archer's office and trips trips in there

304
00:13:53.100 --> 00:13:56.399
because he's in charge of the ship because Archer's down on Vulcan

305
00:13:56.399 --> 00:13:59.759
and there's a series of paintings or prints, like little

306
00:13:59.759 --> 00:14:04.679
lithographs, like that are monochrome that depict the sort of

307
00:14:04.679 --> 00:14:09.419
clipper ship from the opening credits and then the space shuttle

308
00:14:09.419 --> 00:14:12.779
enterprise, which I actually saw with my own eyes when I was a

309
00:14:12.779 --> 00:14:13.080
kid.

310
00:14:13.200 --> 00:14:17.519
And, you know, then our enterprise, you know, the NXO one and

311
00:14:17.519 --> 00:14:17.759
stuff.

312
00:14:17.820 --> 00:14:20.460
So it's a little recap of these opening credits on the wall.

313
00:14:20.639 --> 00:14:25.679
I have to confess that I did try, well, my other up was podcasting

314
00:14:25.679 --> 00:14:29.039
so I tried to slip in the Enterprise episode whilst he was

315
00:14:29.039 --> 00:14:31.740
upstairs away, so he wouldn't see me watching Enterprise.

316
00:14:31.799 --> 00:14:34.500
Most people, you know, have a sneaky wank or so when they're other

317
00:14:34.500 --> 00:14:37.080
halfs away, but no, I'll...

318
00:14:37.080 --> 00:14:38.580
I don't want to be caught watching Enterprise.

319
00:14:38.639 --> 00:14:41.399
Anyway, it comes down, it comes down to get a bloody cup of tea

320
00:14:41.399 --> 00:14:43.440
before he starts just as that music hit.

321
00:14:43.500 --> 00:14:45.360
He walks in the room and he went, oh, dear.

322
00:14:45.419 --> 00:14:46.919
And just walked off.

323
00:14:48.480 --> 00:14:49.980
Damn it.

324
00:14:50.820 --> 00:14:54.899
There's a lot of flames flying around this.

325
00:14:55.019 --> 00:14:55.440
Yeah, yeah.

326
00:14:55.500 --> 00:14:57.659
A lot of flames set number 58.

327
00:14:58.740 --> 00:14:59.279
Oh my god.

328
00:14:59.340 --> 00:15:00.480
It's tapes at one.

329
00:15:00.539 --> 00:15:05.759
And the one, what you didn't see was last week's episode of Lower

330
00:15:05.759 --> 00:15:10.440
Decks, which is called Caves, which is entirely set in a cave, and

331
00:15:10.440 --> 00:15:13.679
they have flashbacks to other things that happen in caves, and

332
00:15:13.679 --> 00:15:19.080
each cave looks identical but lit slightly differently in the

333
00:15:19.080 --> 00:15:20.759
different stories because of course.

334
00:15:20.820 --> 00:15:24.840
Well, is it is it cartoons of other Star Trek shows or just

335
00:15:24.840 --> 00:15:26.519
previous lower decks adventures?

336
00:15:26.580 --> 00:15:29.879
previous unseen lower decks adventures that happen in caves.

337
00:15:30.000 --> 00:15:33.179
Now, can I say, I do like all of this.

338
00:15:33.240 --> 00:15:35.700
Conor Trenier in charge of the Enterprise.

339
00:15:35.759 --> 00:15:39.600
I thought he acquitted himself rather well because, one, he's not

340
00:15:39.600 --> 00:15:41.399
a complete arsehole, like Captain Archer.

341
00:15:41.460 --> 00:15:42.720
So we kind of like him.

342
00:15:42.779 --> 00:15:45.059
But actually, I thought they all work together.

343
00:15:45.120 --> 00:15:48.299
There's a couple of scenes on the bridge later where you see them

344
00:15:48.299 --> 00:15:51.779
all doing their thing, reads on tactical, host, she's doing that

345
00:15:51.779 --> 00:15:55.200
bit, and I'm like, yeah, again, where was this in series one and

346
00:15:55.200 --> 00:15:55.440
two?

347
00:15:55.500 --> 00:15:59.159
Well, even Travis gets to pilot a shuttle and gets a couple of

348
00:15:59.159 --> 00:16:01.860
lines, which is I was so happy when you got a line, yeah.

349
00:16:01.919 --> 00:16:03.240
Yeah, bless.

350
00:16:03.539 --> 00:16:05.700
Why would they waste him?

351
00:16:05.759 --> 00:16:06.659
He's so prissy.

352
00:16:06.720 --> 00:16:08.220
I know, I know.

353
00:16:08.279 --> 00:16:09.000
It's ridiculous.

354
00:16:09.059 --> 00:16:10.559
It's just ridiculous.

355
00:16:10.620 --> 00:16:11.940
But they're just not interested in him.

356
00:16:12.000 --> 00:16:15.600
I mean, Tripp is great and he's probably the best character of the

357
00:16:15.600 --> 00:16:15.899
lot.

358
00:16:15.960 --> 00:16:19.440
Maybe Tripan to poll, are my 2 fa- Well, the doctor, obviously.

359
00:16:19.500 --> 00:16:23.279
He goes without saying is the best character of all of them, but

360
00:16:23.279 --> 00:16:24.419
those 2 are pretty great.

361
00:16:24.480 --> 00:16:27.000
And I think Savale is really good.

362
00:16:27.059 --> 00:16:28.080
Is that his name's involved?

363
00:16:28.200 --> 00:16:29.940
The little arc that he goes on in these 3 episodes.

364
00:16:30.000 --> 00:16:32.879
Because we really hated him in Broken Bow.

365
00:16:32.940 --> 00:16:37.620
He's the reason why Captain Archer's father never got to go up in

366
00:16:37.620 --> 00:16:40.799
space because he was the one sort of holding back the space

367
00:16:40.799 --> 00:16:41.820
program on Earth.

368
00:16:41.879 --> 00:16:45.659
Yeah, he's the one that... sharing the stars of the human beings.

369
00:16:45.720 --> 00:16:47.340
Yeah, precisely.

370
00:16:47.399 --> 00:16:50.700
And yeah, here he's basically deposed, isn't he?

371
00:16:50.759 --> 00:16:51.720
He's humiliated.

372
00:16:51.779 --> 00:16:54.659
And then in this episode, he melds, remember?

373
00:16:54.720 --> 00:17:00.779
He's melded with a witness who's in a coma, someone who saw the

374
00:17:00.779 --> 00:17:02.759
bomb being brought into the embassy.

375
00:17:03.179 --> 00:17:06.660
He's just shown to be a man of enormous integrity.

376
00:17:06.839 --> 00:17:08.819
He's great, isn't he?

377
00:17:08.880 --> 00:17:11.700
actor is like, it's almost like a, thank you so much for sticking

378
00:17:11.700 --> 00:17:13.259
with this dreadful show for 4 years.

379
00:17:13.319 --> 00:17:16.559
Here's a sequence now where you can emote and they put him in the

380
00:17:16.559 --> 00:17:19.019
chair and give him a great scene with Shran.

381
00:17:19.079 --> 00:17:23.039
Yeah, I hated that scene, but I will tell you why, I think.

382
00:17:23.099 --> 00:17:25.140
I don't think it's a brilliant scene.

383
00:17:25.200 --> 00:17:26.700
Oh, no, he was tremendous.

384
00:17:26.759 --> 00:17:28.559
I think he is really properly good.

385
00:17:28.619 --> 00:17:31.680
I mean, unfortunately, it wasn't a patch on the Odo Garrett one

386
00:17:31.680 --> 00:17:33.779
but then that's Rene Aubichonois and Andrew Robinson.

387
00:17:33.839 --> 00:17:34.799
Come on. that's right.

388
00:17:34.859 --> 00:17:40.740
So, I think that conversation that, um, that the admiral and then

389
00:17:40.740 --> 00:17:44.400
so I'll have in that 1st episode is really interesting because

390
00:17:44.400 --> 00:17:50.640
it's like we think you of all of those alien groups that we know

391
00:17:50.640 --> 00:17:57.480
are the most like us, and you scare us with the way that you

392
00:17:57.480 --> 00:18:03.839
emerge from savagery 80 years ago or whatever, and now you're, uh

393
00:18:04.140 --> 00:18:07.140
you know, going for the stars and that frightens us.

394
00:18:07.200 --> 00:18:10.140
And they have a real proper conversation about that, which I think

395
00:18:10.140 --> 00:18:14.460
is really interesting because it's what this trilogy is about.

396
00:18:14.519 --> 00:18:17.700
You know, it gives the Vulcans a history.

397
00:18:17.759 --> 00:18:19.680
It's kind of what the show's been about.

398
00:18:19.920 --> 00:18:21.599
Yeah, yeah.

399
00:18:21.660 --> 00:18:24.660
So the show has been about Earth, but it has equally been about

400
00:18:24.660 --> 00:18:25.380
Vulcan.

401
00:18:25.440 --> 00:18:30.720
And so, and so we get this from the Vulcans, and I think it's

402
00:18:30.720 --> 00:18:31.619
really, really interesting.

403
00:18:31.740 --> 00:18:37.079
And I think also then Discovery takes that on board, you know, we

404
00:18:37.079 --> 00:18:40.140
go to Star Trek the Next Generation, which comes later, but

405
00:18:40.140 --> 00:18:45.480
Discovery, which, you know, is broadcast like later and brings the

406
00:18:45.480 --> 00:18:48.839
Vulcans and Romeulans together and creates, you know, that ongoing

407
00:18:48.839 --> 00:18:50.460
history, which I think is really interesting.

408
00:18:50.519 --> 00:18:52.259
I'm an emotional fella.

409
00:18:52.319 --> 00:18:55.259
So I tend to find the Vulcans a bit tedious, you know.

410
00:18:55.319 --> 00:18:59.339
And I certainly found the depiction of the Vulcans in early

411
00:18:59.339 --> 00:19:02.519
enterprise thoroughly tedious to the point where I stopped

412
00:19:02.519 --> 00:19:02.880
watching.

413
00:19:02.940 --> 00:19:05.940
I stopped watching after that episode 5 or 6 because I really

414
00:19:05.940 --> 00:19:06.900
didn't like what they were doing.

415
00:19:06.960 --> 00:19:09.119
The fact that they managed to turn that around.

416
00:19:09.180 --> 00:19:12.359
This three-parter is the most interesting thing, I think they've

417
00:19:12.359 --> 00:19:12.539
done.

418
00:19:12.599 --> 00:19:14.519
Well, they do with Falcon.

419
00:19:14.579 --> 00:19:17.339
To be honest with you, Nathan, I think this three-parter might be

420
00:19:17.339 --> 00:19:20.700
the most interesting thing that Enterprise does, because I've seen

421
00:19:20.700 --> 00:19:21.480
enough of it now.

422
00:19:21.539 --> 00:19:25.140
So I know that I wasn't engaged with it as much as, oh, it's that

423
00:19:25.140 --> 00:19:25.980
special effect shop.

424
00:19:26.039 --> 00:19:26.579
I like that.

425
00:19:26.640 --> 00:19:30.180
That's trying to do Star Wars there.

426
00:19:30.240 --> 00:19:31.440
Yeah, it is.

427
00:19:31.500 --> 00:19:31.740
Yeah.

428
00:19:31.799 --> 00:19:32.099
Yeah.

429
00:19:32.579 --> 00:19:35.880
So what do you think is new to pal?

430
00:19:36.180 --> 00:19:37.980
Oh, no what?

431
00:19:38.039 --> 00:19:39.000
We'll talk about her later.

432
00:19:39.059 --> 00:19:40.559
Well, I don't know if it appears in this.

433
00:19:40.619 --> 00:19:44.579
I hope it does. somewhere in this sort of Vulcan building.

434
00:19:44.640 --> 00:19:48.539
There's this, um, a set that looks like it's made up for some, from

435
00:19:48.539 --> 00:19:49.259
a kids show.

436
00:19:49.319 --> 00:19:53.160
It's got this weird purple background and then there's a backdrop

437
00:19:53.160 --> 00:19:55.440
of buildings that look so fake.

438
00:19:55.500 --> 00:19:56.400
Did you notice it?

439
00:19:56.460 --> 00:19:57.720
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

440
00:19:57.779 --> 00:19:58.680
That was terrible.

441
00:19:58.740 --> 00:20:02.039
Sorry, you were going to say something. say something...

442
00:20:02.099 --> 00:20:03.839
Yeah, here, this is it.

443
00:20:03.900 --> 00:20:05.220
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

444
00:20:05.279 --> 00:20:06.420
Yeah, it's very strange.

445
00:20:06.480 --> 00:20:07.140
Yeah.

446
00:20:07.200 --> 00:20:08.880
And that, the painting on the walls.

447
00:20:08.940 --> 00:20:10.980
I think if we keep going around that, we might see the building.

448
00:20:11.039 --> 00:20:11.519
Oh no, no.

449
00:20:11.579 --> 00:20:12.180
No, we saw it.

450
00:20:12.240 --> 00:20:13.200
It was already in that chart.

451
00:20:13.500 --> 00:20:14.400
It was shockingly bad.

452
00:20:14.460 --> 00:20:15.059
Yeah.

453
00:20:15.119 --> 00:20:17.700
Yeah, it is kind of a bit shit, isn't it?

454
00:20:17.759 --> 00:20:20.819
You know that sort of backdrop of New York that you see in friends

455
00:20:20.819 --> 00:20:21.599
out of the window.

456
00:20:21.660 --> 00:20:22.799
It's a bit like that, you know?

457
00:20:22.859 --> 00:20:26.759
Well, no, there'd be photographic blowup that we saw in stigma

458
00:20:26.759 --> 00:20:29.880
remember, that was supposed to be that was supposed to be a city.

459
00:20:29.940 --> 00:20:34.259
No, do you remember in Terra Prime where Reed went off to the

460
00:20:34.259 --> 00:20:35.400
section 31?

461
00:20:35.460 --> 00:20:36.000
Oh, yeah, yeah.

462
00:20:36.059 --> 00:20:38.700
And they tried to convince they were outside in like New York or

463
00:20:38.700 --> 00:20:39.059
something.

464
00:20:39.119 --> 00:20:40.680
Yeah, horrible.

465
00:20:40.740 --> 00:20:43.200
Oh, okay, sorry, back to the episode.

466
00:20:43.259 --> 00:20:48.599
So, so part of the thing here, when we hear, you know, that that

467
00:20:48.599 --> 00:20:55.799
Tapol doesn't believe in Cartres and that mind melding is illegal

468
00:20:55.799 --> 00:20:58.559
we know that's wrong because we know that they're important

469
00:20:58.559 --> 00:21:03.000
features of what the Vulcans come to be, you know, in 100 years

470
00:21:03.000 --> 00:21:05.759
time or just over 100 years' time when Star Trek is sad.

471
00:21:05.819 --> 00:21:12.960
And, But then we have to power in this episode, and she's

472
00:21:12.960 --> 00:21:18.420
originally the person that Velass tries to pin the embassy bombing

473
00:21:18.420 --> 00:21:22.740
on, remember, and she's a member of this Cyranite faction that

474
00:21:22.740 --> 00:21:26.460
believes that they have the true teachings of Surak.

475
00:21:26.519 --> 00:21:28.619
Turns out they're all pacifists.

476
00:21:28.680 --> 00:21:29.700
Yeah.

477
00:21:29.700 --> 00:21:30.720
I don't believe it.

478
00:21:32.220 --> 00:21:36.960
I think it's weird not giving her the accent, like not making her

479
00:21:36.960 --> 00:21:37.680
do the accent.

480
00:21:37.740 --> 00:21:40.319
I didn't really know this, if I'm honest.

481
00:21:40.380 --> 00:21:45.960
We've seen Tapau when she was played by Celia Lovsky at Spock's

482
00:21:45.960 --> 00:21:46.319
wedding.

483
00:21:46.380 --> 00:21:52.079
Uh, The wonderful Vulcan woman who marries them.

484
00:21:52.140 --> 00:21:53.339
Remember?

485
00:21:53.400 --> 00:21:54.839
Oh, of course, you know, I didn't.

486
00:21:54.960 --> 00:21:56.339
I didn't even make the connection.

487
00:21:56.400 --> 00:21:57.900
I didn't even make the question.

488
00:21:57.900 --> 00:21:58.980
Yeah.

489
00:21:59.039 --> 00:21:59.940
Yeah.

490
00:22:00.000 --> 00:22:03.240
And she was incredible. couldn't take my eyes off her.

491
00:22:03.299 --> 00:22:05.339
Yeah, absolutely magnificent.

492
00:22:05.400 --> 00:22:08.160
And then this little sort of young American woman who has no

493
00:22:08.160 --> 00:22:09.900
accent, no particular presence and stuff.

494
00:22:09.960 --> 00:22:11.099
That is strange.

495
00:22:11.160 --> 00:22:11.940
Yeah.

496
00:22:12.000 --> 00:22:16.559
So I kind of think that that that isn't satisfying anyone because

497
00:22:16.559 --> 00:22:20.640
the people who know who to power is a kind of going, oh, come on.

498
00:22:20.700 --> 00:22:24.900
Celia was so great in this role, why is this woman not even trying

499
00:22:24.900 --> 00:22:26.099
to do that cool accent?

500
00:22:26.460 --> 00:22:28.200
But you know what?

501
00:22:28.259 --> 00:22:33.480
The fact that they are plummeting TOS, finally, on this show.

502
00:22:33.539 --> 00:22:36.539
Yeah, I will give them props for that because it's the thing that

503
00:22:36.539 --> 00:22:39.420
they've really avoided doing in the 1st 3 years.

504
00:22:39.480 --> 00:22:42.720
And and they do something with her that is good.

505
00:22:42.779 --> 00:22:48.180
Like they make her a major player in the reform of Vulcan that

506
00:22:48.180 --> 00:22:50.640
takes place at this point, you know?

507
00:22:50.640 --> 00:22:54.240
You know, I think something interesting that's happened here is

508
00:22:54.240 --> 00:22:58.259
the writers of the Forge, which is the 1st part of this 3 parter.

509
00:22:58.680 --> 00:23:00.119
I cannot remember their names now.

510
00:23:00.180 --> 00:23:01.980
I think it's a husband and wife team.

511
00:23:02.039 --> 00:23:05.160
Phyllis Strong and Mike Sussman, I want to say.

512
00:23:05.220 --> 00:23:07.140
Those names seem familiar.

513
00:23:07.200 --> 00:23:10.380
Yeah, they've written a ton of Star Trek books before they wrote

514
00:23:10.380 --> 00:23:10.980
for this show.

515
00:23:11.039 --> 00:23:13.500
So they're steeped in Star Trek Law.

516
00:23:13.559 --> 00:23:14.460
Yeah, yeah.

517
00:23:14.460 --> 00:23:18.299
And Manicoto deliberately brought them in because they knew their

518
00:23:18.299 --> 00:23:22.319
stuff and they knew and I feel like you can feel their hand in all

519
00:23:22.319 --> 00:23:26.759
of this in that we can take the show in the direction it needs to

520
00:23:26.759 --> 00:23:31.140
go for it to get to TOS, but we can do some interesting things

521
00:23:31.140 --> 00:23:31.740
along the way.

522
00:23:31.799 --> 00:23:33.779
Well, yeah, that's it.

523
00:23:33.839 --> 00:23:35.400
It wouldn't have been anything in itself.

524
00:23:35.460 --> 00:23:37.920
It would have just been fan wank and it would have irritated the

525
00:23:37.920 --> 00:23:38.759
hell out of us.

526
00:23:38.880 --> 00:23:42.660
If it hadn't been in the service of telling a story on a big scale

527
00:23:42.660 --> 00:23:47.160
and suddenly making it interesting and making Star Trek feel like

528
00:23:47.160 --> 00:23:49.680
it was taking place in a world, I think.

529
00:23:49.740 --> 00:23:53.160
Like early enterprise, it's just trying to tell all the pioneers

530
00:23:53.160 --> 00:23:54.240
in space story, isn't it?

531
00:23:54.299 --> 00:23:55.259
And guess what?

532
00:23:55.319 --> 00:23:57.359
That turned out to be really fucking boring.

533
00:23:57.480 --> 00:24:02.099
Whereas, yeah, this is playing in the tool, you know, the toy box

534
00:24:02.099 --> 00:24:05.519
of Star Trek TOS and things that come later.

535
00:24:05.579 --> 00:24:07.319
And all of a sudden we're interested.

536
00:24:07.440 --> 00:24:09.059
It was a good move.

537
00:24:09.119 --> 00:24:12.119
Manikoto made that was basically his mission statement, wasn't

538
00:24:12.119 --> 00:24:12.240
it?

539
00:24:12.299 --> 00:24:16.079
for, was to start making this Star Trek.

540
00:24:16.140 --> 00:24:18.299
Let's put the trek back in enterprise.

541
00:24:19.019 --> 00:24:23.460
So I have to say that I don't think that this woman does a bad

542
00:24:23.460 --> 00:24:23.940
job.

543
00:24:24.000 --> 00:24:27.119
Do you know what I mean, but she's not to pal.

544
00:24:27.180 --> 00:24:29.099
I don't think there was a weak performance in this.

545
00:24:29.160 --> 00:24:29.880
No.

546
00:24:29.940 --> 00:24:32.160
No, it's just a contrast there, isn't it?

547
00:24:32.220 --> 00:24:32.759
Yeah.

548
00:24:33.299 --> 00:24:35.519
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

549
00:24:35.579 --> 00:24:36.960
I just don't quite know where they're doing it.

550
00:24:37.019 --> 00:24:40.440
Early wrong. earlier on when he was going through all the caves.

551
00:24:40.500 --> 00:24:42.839
I was waiting for the car because you're following him.

552
00:24:42.900 --> 00:24:45.480
They're doing a tracking shot through the caves and I was like

553
00:24:45.480 --> 00:24:46.259
hang on a minute.

554
00:24:46.319 --> 00:24:47.160
This set can't be this big.

555
00:24:47.220 --> 00:24:49.140
They don't have as much cave as that.

556
00:24:49.200 --> 00:24:51.059
At some point, there's going to be a cut.

557
00:24:51.059 --> 00:24:53.160
And actually, it was longer than I thought it was going to be, but

558
00:24:53.160 --> 00:24:57.059
he went around at least 3 corners before they cut.

559
00:24:57.119 --> 00:24:59.160
And then he went back to the start again, obviously.

560
00:24:59.220 --> 00:25:00.660
I'm like, hang on, haven't we been here before?

561
00:25:01.559 --> 00:25:05.700
So, what's funny about this too, is that it is a giant

562
00:25:05.700 --> 00:25:09.720
geopolitical thing and it is about kind of changing the nature of

563
00:25:09.720 --> 00:25:14.339
the Vulcans and like a big kind of awakening, I guess, another

564
00:25:14.339 --> 00:25:18.059
awakening in the Vulcans, like the one that they had 1800 years

565
00:25:18.059 --> 00:25:18.359
ago.

566
00:25:18.420 --> 00:25:22.740
Um, But they just make it a very simple.

567
00:25:22.799 --> 00:25:28.440
We need to get this artefact to the city, and that's the one plot

568
00:25:28.440 --> 00:25:31.920
and then the other plot is we need to stop the Vulcans invading

569
00:25:31.920 --> 00:25:36.059
Andoria, and that's another plot, and they're both fun and

570
00:25:36.059 --> 00:25:37.619
interesting and full of incident and stuff.

571
00:25:37.740 --> 00:25:41.220
I'm really... they added the 2nd plot, though.

572
00:25:41.279 --> 00:25:44.400
It needed to go up a step and boy, it does as well.

573
00:25:44.460 --> 00:25:47.759
Here they're talking about Panas syndrome from stigma.

574
00:25:47.819 --> 00:25:51.720
Again, reaching into the past and finding something that perhaps

575
00:25:51.720 --> 00:25:55.740
didn't work and giving it a bit of a little bit of substance.

576
00:25:55.859 --> 00:26:01.799
But, I mean, even that, the Panas syndrome thing was another thing

577
00:26:01.799 --> 00:26:05.400
that convinced us that there's something very wrong with these

578
00:26:05.400 --> 00:26:11.220
Vulcans, and Manikoto is aware that that's how we feel, and it is

579
00:26:11.220 --> 00:26:11.880
intentional.

580
00:26:11.940 --> 00:26:13.259
It has to be intentional.

581
00:26:13.319 --> 00:26:17.640
You know, they know as well as we do that this is an odd way for

582
00:26:17.640 --> 00:26:18.660
Vulcans to behave.

583
00:26:18.720 --> 00:26:24.000
I think the biggest example of him trying to sort of reform the

584
00:26:24.000 --> 00:26:26.400
Vulcans in our eyes is Savile.

585
00:26:26.460 --> 00:26:27.539
It's just taken that character.

586
00:26:27.599 --> 00:26:30.660
I'm making him likeable and somebody we want to be around.

587
00:26:30.720 --> 00:26:32.460
And it really works as well.

588
00:26:33.059 --> 00:26:36.359
So we're about to have the torture scene.

589
00:26:36.420 --> 00:26:37.680
Why don't you like this scene?

590
00:26:37.740 --> 00:26:44.279
Because it doesn't manage to do what it needs to do, and I think

591
00:26:44.279 --> 00:26:48.539
it's unpleasant just for the sake of being kind of gritty.

592
00:26:48.599 --> 00:26:52.319
So, you could point at that augments arc. you know, that sequence

593
00:26:52.319 --> 00:26:55.380
where the fellow's inside the thing and he's bleeding from every

594
00:26:55.380 --> 00:26:57.299
orifice, for the exactly the same thing.

595
00:26:57.359 --> 00:27:01.559
But what you're doing is creating a kind of moral dilemma.

596
00:27:01.619 --> 00:27:02.279
Do you know what I mean?

597
00:27:02.339 --> 00:27:06.900
Because you've got some kids who are, you know, with that and some

598
00:27:06.900 --> 00:27:09.539
who aren't and you've got these kids behaving in this sort of

599
00:27:09.539 --> 00:27:11.579
terrible, horrible responsible way.

600
00:27:11.640 --> 00:27:15.480
And so there are character things about it here, that what this

601
00:27:15.480 --> 00:27:16.799
doesn't lead to anything.

602
00:27:16.799 --> 00:27:22.799
And what it needs to do is it needs to have a moment where the 2

603
00:27:22.799 --> 00:27:31.380
of these people bond and he decides that and Strand decides that

604
00:27:31.380 --> 00:27:33.839
torturing servile is wrong and he doesn't want to do it.

605
00:27:33.960 --> 00:27:39.119
And we approach it by talking about them working together on the

606
00:27:39.119 --> 00:27:43.740
peace treaty, but all that happens is he kind of stops torturing

607
00:27:43.740 --> 00:27:47.640
him for no reason, and then he comes in and says, oh, well, he

608
00:27:47.640 --> 00:27:50.039
convinced me he was telling the truth because he didn't just make

609
00:27:50.039 --> 00:27:52.200
some shit up, and that's enough for me.

610
00:27:52.259 --> 00:27:55.019
And so we never see anything, like it doesn't do the character

611
00:27:55.019 --> 00:27:55.920
thing it needs to do.

612
00:27:56.039 --> 00:27:58.859
It's not even like it's telling us anything about Shran because we

613
00:27:58.859 --> 00:28:02.339
know that he'll go to any lengths to, you know, to get what he

614
00:28:02.339 --> 00:28:02.519
wants.

615
00:28:02.579 --> 00:28:05.039
Pointing you at the Dyer's cast again.

616
00:28:05.099 --> 00:28:07.859
That torture sequence between Odo and Garak.

617
00:28:07.920 --> 00:28:11.579
Garak doesn't want to be doing it, so that makes it interesting.

618
00:28:11.640 --> 00:28:16.859
Um, it's fucking intense because, oh, John Noir goes for it.

619
00:28:16.920 --> 00:28:20.519
But at the end of the sequence, he gives him something.

620
00:28:20.579 --> 00:28:24.059
He says, I want to go home and that's what I've not told anybody

621
00:28:24.059 --> 00:28:24.779
before.

622
00:28:24.779 --> 00:28:27.119
So suddenly there is a bond between the 2 of them.

623
00:28:27.180 --> 00:28:28.380
So the scene had a point.

624
00:28:28.440 --> 00:28:32.759
And then after that, we start having scenes between Garak and

625
00:28:32.759 --> 00:28:33.119
Odo.

626
00:28:33.180 --> 00:28:36.779
Where they're, no, not friends, but, you know, they, they, they

627
00:28:36.779 --> 00:28:39.119
hang together, you know, because they're both lonely and they both

628
00:28:39.119 --> 00:28:40.500
don't want to be there.

629
00:28:41.519 --> 00:28:44.819
It has a it has a point. kind of want to go home.

630
00:28:44.880 --> 00:28:45.180
Yeah.

631
00:28:45.240 --> 00:28:46.619
Yeah, whereas this doesn't.

632
00:28:46.680 --> 00:28:49.559
I think it doesn't do what it needs to do and had it been better

633
00:28:49.559 --> 00:28:51.599
written, it would have been better.

634
00:28:51.720 --> 00:28:52.140
I think.

635
00:28:52.200 --> 00:28:54.660
On a purely performance level, though.

636
00:28:54.720 --> 00:28:55.500
I was impressed.

637
00:28:55.559 --> 00:28:56.099
Yeah, 0 yeah.

638
00:28:56.160 --> 00:28:56.819
Yeah.

639
00:28:56.880 --> 00:29:01.500
Oh, no, no, you're clearly just kind of, you know, um, giving Gary

640
00:29:01.500 --> 00:29:04.920
Graham something to do, some acting to do and getting him to do

641
00:29:04.920 --> 00:29:07.740
things that he hasn't done as that character before and fair

642
00:29:07.740 --> 00:29:08.160
enough.

643
00:29:08.220 --> 00:29:11.640
But the scene itself doesn't work because I don't see it going

644
00:29:11.640 --> 00:29:14.519
anywhere. semi- eyebrow raising you've been doing for 3 seasons or

645
00:29:14.519 --> 00:29:15.480
I love that.

646
00:29:15.539 --> 00:29:16.740
Take a look at this scratch.

647
00:29:16.799 --> 00:29:17.099
Come on.

648
00:29:18.299 --> 00:29:21.660
You're going to get to a moat for at least 5 minutes.

649
00:29:21.720 --> 00:29:24.359
My God, a line for Travis there.

650
00:29:24.420 --> 00:29:26.579
Yeah, yep, there he is.

651
00:29:26.640 --> 00:29:27.720
Look, he's talking and everything.

652
00:29:27.779 --> 00:29:30.720
I think these CGI ships have come on as well.

653
00:29:30.779 --> 00:29:34.200
I think they look, they don't, obviously, the models always going

654
00:29:34.200 --> 00:29:37.079
to look more robust than CGI, but actually they look quite

655
00:29:37.079 --> 00:29:37.500
detailed.

656
00:29:37.740 --> 00:29:41.579
Yeah, they certainly look better than, you know, like they're a

657
00:29:41.579 --> 00:29:45.359
step ahead of what kind of Babylon 5 does and I've never heard of

658
00:29:45.359 --> 00:29:47.579
Babylon 5, but. step ahead of that.

659
00:29:47.640 --> 00:29:50.640
Well, you know, like I think it was worth a try.

660
00:29:50.700 --> 00:29:53.160
Like I'm happy they tried.

661
00:29:53.220 --> 00:29:56.519
I do like the sort of fountain pen shape of those Andorian shits

662
00:29:56.519 --> 00:29:58.980
but you know, they're not a patch on some of the ones we see in

663
00:29:58.980 --> 00:29:59.579
the 90s.

664
00:29:59.640 --> 00:30:01.380
Gemadar ships and things like that.

665
00:30:01.440 --> 00:30:03.480
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

666
00:30:03.539 --> 00:30:08.099
But I always feel like they, they, they do try and be sort of fun

667
00:30:08.099 --> 00:30:10.559
and quirky with their spaceship signs.

668
00:30:11.339 --> 00:30:15.359
I think there's an attempt to make them blockier, and look more

669
00:30:15.359 --> 00:30:21.420
primitive in the 22nd century, maybe, but...

670
00:30:21.480 --> 00:30:23.220
Which is a fair approach.

671
00:30:23.279 --> 00:30:24.960
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

672
00:30:25.019 --> 00:30:25.920
No, they need to sell it.

673
00:30:25.980 --> 00:30:26.460
This is the past.

674
00:30:26.519 --> 00:30:29.579
I was at a convention last week, you know, and a fella had a whole

675
00:30:29.579 --> 00:30:33.059
table just full of Star Trek spaceship models on it.

676
00:30:33.119 --> 00:30:33.779
Oh, wow.

677
00:30:33.779 --> 00:30:36.180
And just seeing them all sort of laid out in front of me.

678
00:30:36.240 --> 00:30:38.880
I was like, there's some real diversity here, you know, like

679
00:30:38.880 --> 00:30:42.059
across from Kurtzman right away back to TOS.

680
00:30:42.240 --> 00:30:44.400
It's wonderful, isn't it?

681
00:30:44.460 --> 00:30:47.279
It's a great sort of playground and they do a really good job, I

682
00:30:47.279 --> 00:30:47.579
think.

683
00:30:47.640 --> 00:30:48.480
They always do.

684
00:30:48.539 --> 00:30:52.140
It means that we can have, you know, a Star Trek visual dictionary

685
00:30:52.140 --> 00:30:53.400
just like they do for Star Wars.

686
00:30:53.460 --> 00:30:54.839
That's right.

687
00:30:55.140 --> 00:30:57.359
Did I tell you I bought that?

688
00:30:58.019 --> 00:31:00.539
Oh, did you?

689
00:31:00.539 --> 00:31:04.440
It shows you the spaceship designs.

690
00:31:04.500 --> 00:31:08.160
And then like all the map paintings that they do in the 90s of the

691
00:31:08.160 --> 00:31:10.140
planets and things like that.

692
00:31:10.200 --> 00:31:11.400
That's wonderful.

693
00:31:11.460 --> 00:31:12.539
It's my new Bible.

694
00:31:12.779 --> 00:31:16.319
This is super interesting, isn't it, this scene?

695
00:31:16.380 --> 00:31:18.779
I mean, talk about a relationship that's come on.

696
00:31:19.259 --> 00:31:23.220
I really didn't like this pair in series one.

697
00:31:23.279 --> 00:31:23.940
No.

698
00:31:24.000 --> 00:31:28.740
And now there is just a sort of very natural respect between the 2

699
00:31:28.740 --> 00:31:29.099
of them.

700
00:31:29.160 --> 00:31:30.240
Yeah.

701
00:31:30.299 --> 00:31:34.500
But I think that this gets closest to raising the sort of

702
00:31:34.500 --> 00:31:42.299
questions that I want this episode to talk about because like she

703
00:31:42.299 --> 00:31:43.140
doesn't believe it.

704
00:31:43.200 --> 00:31:46.500
There are groups of people all around the world who claim to

705
00:31:46.500 --> 00:31:52.440
follow Surak's teachings, Surak was around about 2000 years ago

706
00:31:52.440 --> 00:31:55.380
and now there are different people who believe that he said

707
00:31:55.380 --> 00:31:56.759
different things.

708
00:31:56.819 --> 00:32:01.799
And this is all solved by the fact that we get his actual

709
00:32:01.799 --> 00:32:06.000
teachings at the end, and we know that they're definitely his

710
00:32:06.000 --> 00:32:06.779
teachings.

711
00:32:06.839 --> 00:32:12.359
But there's that's a kind of fantasy world version of how religion

712
00:32:12.359 --> 00:32:12.900
works.

713
00:32:12.960 --> 00:32:19.440
And Deep Space 9, I think, is the, like, it also goes for a sort

714
00:32:19.440 --> 00:32:23.700
of ludicrous space opera version of religion by the end, but on

715
00:32:23.700 --> 00:32:27.539
the way, it actually talks about religion and faith and things in

716
00:32:27.539 --> 00:32:28.500
a much more interesting way.

717
00:32:28.559 --> 00:32:32.039
Well, it would be very easy to condemn it in the way that Gene

718
00:32:32.039 --> 00:32:35.759
Roddenbury did, but unfortunately, the 1st officer, Maj Shakira, is

719
00:32:35.759 --> 00:32:38.460
religious and we cannot rip her every week.

720
00:32:38.519 --> 00:32:40.259
So it's treated very maturely at times.

721
00:32:40.380 --> 00:32:44.160
I really love the line in that last scene where she goes, well, did

722
00:32:44.160 --> 00:32:46.140
my mother think I was just going to come here and join this

723
00:32:46.140 --> 00:32:46.980
radical faction.

724
00:32:47.039 --> 00:32:50.220
And Archer says, well, you joined up with our ship.

725
00:32:50.279 --> 00:32:53.819
There are many people that consider that a radical faction. having

726
00:32:53.819 --> 00:32:54.720
a bit of fun with each other.

727
00:32:54.779 --> 00:32:56.039
Yeah.

728
00:32:56.099 --> 00:32:58.500
But I mean, I thought that that was a proper discussion about

729
00:32:58.500 --> 00:33:01.980
something and it comes at a time where archery is inhabited by

730
00:33:01.980 --> 00:33:04.680
Surax Cartra, isn't he?

731
00:33:05.099 --> 00:33:10.920
And so he is starting to feel sympathy for Vulcans and Syrinites

732
00:33:10.920 --> 00:33:11.400
and all of that.

733
00:33:11.460 --> 00:33:16.440
It's very hard to take this torture scene seriously with Shran's

734
00:33:16.440 --> 00:33:18.240
antennae wiggling about the place.

735
00:33:18.359 --> 00:33:22.140
So it's not the antenna that distracts me because I think they're

736
00:33:22.140 --> 00:33:22.440
great.

737
00:33:22.500 --> 00:33:27.900
What distracts me is that some, for some reason, he's got really

738
00:33:27.900 --> 00:33:34.259
powdery makeup on and because his face is very animated, because

739
00:33:34.259 --> 00:33:36.180
he's got laughter lines and stuff like that.

740
00:33:36.240 --> 00:33:41.039
And because we're in HD now, and because we're in HD, it's pretty

741
00:33:41.039 --> 00:33:41.880
unforgiving.

742
00:33:41.940 --> 00:33:45.420
So Wayoon always looked okay, but I think Strand's makeup looks

743
00:33:45.420 --> 00:33:45.960
really shit.

744
00:33:46.079 --> 00:33:48.839
I don't think, I don't think, um...

745
00:33:48.839 --> 00:33:51.660
Way you not as much powder on, you know.

746
00:33:51.720 --> 00:33:52.740
It wasn't...

747
00:33:52.740 --> 00:33:55.259
It always feels like it's falling off round.

748
00:33:55.380 --> 00:33:57.420
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

749
00:33:57.480 --> 00:34:00.059
I just keep expecting it must have been a big mess.

750
00:34:00.059 --> 00:34:01.200
Gum falls off.

751
00:34:01.259 --> 00:34:01.920
Yeah that's right.

752
00:34:02.039 --> 00:34:04.799
Jeffrey, can you put in this set, please?

753
00:34:04.859 --> 00:34:06.779
Look who this is.

754
00:34:06.839 --> 00:34:12.300
So we've got this new Vulcan guard guy come in.

755
00:34:12.360 --> 00:34:13.800
It's Ninja Vulcan.

756
00:34:13.860 --> 00:34:21.239
And he's called Taylock, and he is played by Todd Stashwick, who

757
00:34:21.239 --> 00:34:26.219
played Captain Liam Shaw in series 3 of Chicago.

758
00:34:26.280 --> 00:34:27.179
Do you realise what they're doing here?

759
00:34:27.239 --> 00:34:29.340
They're creating the bridge.

760
00:34:29.400 --> 00:34:32.940
You've got Robert Foxworth from, and you've got this fella from

761
00:34:32.940 --> 00:34:34.019
Picard.

762
00:34:34.079 --> 00:34:35.519
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

763
00:34:35.579 --> 00:34:37.619
And I mean, he's great.

764
00:34:37.679 --> 00:34:39.599
I mean, he is such a superb character.

765
00:34:39.840 --> 00:34:42.059
The character in Picard was.

766
00:34:42.119 --> 00:34:43.679
Yeah, that's what I mean.

767
00:34:43.679 --> 00:34:44.820
This character is magnificent.

768
00:34:44.880 --> 00:34:45.900
I barely remembered.

769
00:34:45.960 --> 00:34:48.780
But God, man, sure, in Picard.

770
00:34:48.840 --> 00:34:50.519
The sequence is in the bar.

771
00:34:50.699 --> 00:34:54.480
They were the best thing. the way he talked.

772
00:34:54.539 --> 00:34:57.719
You know the space people problem that we always have on Star

773
00:34:57.719 --> 00:34:58.199
Trek.

774
00:34:58.260 --> 00:34:59.460
And there's that line.

775
00:34:59.519 --> 00:35:01.920
He says, you know, we're having a bit of a weird week or

776
00:35:01.920 --> 00:35:02.340
something.

777
00:35:02.400 --> 00:35:05.519
It's just so... when he was completely on side, he managed to have

778
00:35:05.519 --> 00:35:05.880
edge.

779
00:35:05.940 --> 00:35:06.599
Sure.

780
00:35:06.719 --> 00:35:08.460
Yeah, he was really obnoxious.

781
00:35:08.519 --> 00:35:08.940
He was awesome.

782
00:35:09.000 --> 00:35:10.139
So good.

783
00:35:10.199 --> 00:35:13.800
Here he is being beaten up by him. he might have been the best

784
00:35:13.800 --> 00:35:15.300
original character to come out of.

785
00:35:15.420 --> 00:35:16.800
Picard, yeah.

786
00:35:16.860 --> 00:35:18.179
Yeah, I love Raffi.

787
00:35:18.239 --> 00:35:19.739
Like, I will always love Raffi.

788
00:35:19.800 --> 00:35:20.159
She's awesome.

789
00:35:20.219 --> 00:35:22.860
Oh, no, I liked Agnes from Sirius one, actually.

790
00:35:22.980 --> 00:35:23.820
Yeah.

791
00:35:23.820 --> 00:35:27.480
And I quite like the Romulan guy.

792
00:35:27.539 --> 00:35:28.980
Yeah, whatever happened to her?

793
00:35:29.039 --> 00:35:31.920
In that ball truce that we forgot all about.

794
00:35:32.039 --> 00:35:35.159
And then this ridiculous thing?

795
00:35:35.280 --> 00:35:36.420
Look at them falling down.

796
00:35:36.539 --> 00:35:37.440
I'll tell a lie.

797
00:35:37.500 --> 00:35:39.659
I did laugh at this bit where she threw him down that hole.

798
00:35:39.780 --> 00:35:40.860
Yeah, yeah.

799
00:35:40.860 --> 00:35:42.960
He has no idea it's coming either.

800
00:35:43.019 --> 00:35:44.280
So that's what happened.

801
00:35:47.340 --> 00:35:49.139
Joe, I did think as well.

802
00:35:49.199 --> 00:35:52.920
Did you not think when they finally open up the Keshara that that

803
00:35:52.920 --> 00:35:55.860
hologrammatic effect was actually pretty good?

804
00:35:55.920 --> 00:35:58.380
It reminded me a little bit of Kersman Trek.

805
00:35:58.440 --> 00:36:00.780
Yeah, yeah, I thought it was really properly good.

806
00:36:00.840 --> 00:36:04.079
The thing is, Kurtzman Trek is now we just have every console up

807
00:36:04.079 --> 00:36:04.980
in the air.

808
00:36:05.039 --> 00:36:06.480
Everything's quite a hologram.

809
00:36:06.539 --> 00:36:12.360
But this one is Vulcan writing that we have seen as well.

810
00:36:12.420 --> 00:36:17.039
So, um, uh, and it's in the air.

811
00:36:17.099 --> 00:36:21.599
And so it sells the idea that these are documents and it makes it

812
00:36:21.599 --> 00:36:24.840
credible that they're real as well, don't you think?

813
00:36:24.900 --> 00:36:28.079
Like that makes us seem that they're properly real.

814
00:36:28.139 --> 00:36:30.300
If they've just been sort of pieces of paper with sort of writing

815
00:36:30.300 --> 00:36:32.519
on them, that would have been harder.

816
00:36:32.579 --> 00:36:33.119
Do you remember?

817
00:36:33.119 --> 00:36:35.760
The text of the costumogen.

818
00:36:36.480 --> 00:36:39.000
When blood was built on it.

819
00:36:39.059 --> 00:36:42.960
Yeah, it was a little bit like a magic book, wasn't it?

820
00:36:43.079 --> 00:36:43.860
That will change.

821
00:36:43.920 --> 00:36:45.300
What are you talking about?

822
00:36:45.360 --> 00:36:46.500
It was a magic book.

823
00:36:46.559 --> 00:36:47.280
That's what I know.

824
00:36:47.340 --> 00:36:49.679
But I mean, the Keshara was as well.

825
00:36:49.739 --> 00:36:51.239
Yeah, because, yeah, yeah.

826
00:36:52.320 --> 00:36:55.920
I have to say that Todd Stashwick has improved with age.

827
00:36:55.980 --> 00:37:00.780
He is quite handsome as Captain Shaw, but whereas Robert Foxworth

828
00:37:00.780 --> 00:37:01.619
unfortunately, has not.

829
00:37:02.159 --> 00:37:03.539
No.

830
00:37:03.599 --> 00:37:05.880
Well, they put him in that terrible win.

831
00:37:05.940 --> 00:37:07.260
It's a problem.

832
00:37:07.320 --> 00:37:07.679
Yeah, yeah.

833
00:37:07.739 --> 00:37:09.420
They've made him have a shave.

834
00:37:09.539 --> 00:37:13.980
So at the end of the episode, spoilers, he comes back and we

835
00:37:13.980 --> 00:37:20.280
discover he's really a Romulan and he's been playing, um, he's

836
00:37:20.280 --> 00:37:22.619
been playing Velasse.

837
00:37:22.679 --> 00:37:28.019
Okay, so this guy, um, whose name is Taylor, uh, to rhyme with

838
00:37:28.019 --> 00:37:28.980
Blaylock.

839
00:37:29.039 --> 00:37:34.260
Um, So he comes back and he's a Romulan and he's been playing.

840
00:37:34.320 --> 00:37:38.159
And what memory alpha says, which is absolutely hilarious is they

841
00:37:38.159 --> 00:37:40.860
weren't going to shoot the scene because they didn't have money

842
00:37:40.860 --> 00:37:42.539
for an additional speaking part.

843
00:37:42.599 --> 00:37:47.579
And so they said, uh, uh, you know, bugger it will, we'll just get

844
00:37:47.579 --> 00:37:49.260
Todd to do this line.

845
00:37:49.320 --> 00:37:51.000
And so that's how they do it.

846
00:37:51.059 --> 00:37:55.500
And so originally I had thought that it was leading into something

847
00:37:55.500 --> 00:38:00.900
he had planned for series 5, that maybe series 5 would see RC, the

848
00:38:00.900 --> 00:38:05.280
Romulan impact, you know, how they'd been, and why they'd been

849
00:38:05.280 --> 00:38:11.460
influencing Vulcan, and then, and also, you know, like, um, how

850
00:38:11.460 --> 00:38:12.539
Vulcan was changing.

851
00:38:12.539 --> 00:38:13.980
Now they had the proper teachings.

852
00:38:14.039 --> 00:38:18.119
Any other season of Enterprise, if they'd have put that scene at

853
00:38:18.119 --> 00:38:20.699
the end of this with the Romulans, I would have been like, okay

854
00:38:20.699 --> 00:38:22.619
that's just them telling us they were behind all of this.

855
00:38:22.679 --> 00:38:23.159
That's fine.

856
00:38:23.159 --> 00:38:26.159
Because we're in series 4 now and they are...

857
00:38:26.159 --> 00:38:27.900
It's dealing with concerts going to go somewhere.

858
00:38:27.960 --> 00:38:29.340
It felt like it was planting a seed.

859
00:38:29.400 --> 00:38:29.579
Yeah.

860
00:38:29.639 --> 00:38:30.420
Yeah.

861
00:38:30.480 --> 00:38:31.019
Yeah.

862
00:38:31.019 --> 00:38:32.820
Do you know what?

863
00:38:32.880 --> 00:38:37.079
The more I watch four, the more the sadder I am that we didn't get

864
00:38:37.079 --> 00:38:37.500
five.

865
00:38:37.739 --> 00:38:41.219
And I don't think I'll say that, man, surprised, if I'm honest.

866
00:38:41.280 --> 00:38:42.599
No, no, no.

867
00:38:42.659 --> 00:38:45.119
I think I think it is a loss because this is fun.

868
00:38:45.179 --> 00:38:47.280
This is like movie of the week fun.

869
00:38:47.340 --> 00:38:50.460
Do you remember the way that DS 9 used to suggest scale?

870
00:38:50.519 --> 00:38:56.099
So you'd have, like, one person talking for a race, you'd have

871
00:38:56.099 --> 00:38:59.880
maybe one set for each planet and you'd go from planet to planet

872
00:38:59.880 --> 00:39:00.360
to planet.

873
00:39:00.420 --> 00:39:03.239
So they have 4 sets, but we're going to 4 planets, so that feels

874
00:39:03.239 --> 00:39:03.599
big.

875
00:39:03.659 --> 00:39:04.380
It feels vast.

876
00:39:04.440 --> 00:39:09.059
I really feel they've come on with suggesting we've got in this 3

877
00:39:09.059 --> 00:39:09.420
party.

878
00:39:09.480 --> 00:39:12.420
You get desert location work. you were in the case, you're in the

879
00:39:12.420 --> 00:39:16.320
Vulcan Embassy, you're up on Enterprise, you've got space effects

880
00:39:16.320 --> 00:39:18.420
going on, you're in the Andorra and shit, like there's enough.

881
00:39:18.659 --> 00:39:23.039
There is enough visually to suggest this is taking place on a big

882
00:39:23.039 --> 00:39:23.460
scale.

883
00:39:23.519 --> 00:39:24.719
I really like that.

884
00:39:24.780 --> 00:39:26.639
Yeah, that's right.

885
00:39:26.760 --> 00:39:27.239
You said to me.

886
00:39:27.300 --> 00:39:28.199
Oh, this feels like a movie.

887
00:39:28.260 --> 00:39:29.699
And I was like, yeah, this really does.

888
00:39:29.760 --> 00:39:30.300
Okay.

889
00:39:30.360 --> 00:39:33.360
It's not, you know, doing it, pulling off the special effects of a

890
00:39:33.360 --> 00:39:33.539
movie.

891
00:39:33.659 --> 00:39:36.300
But it feels it feels beak like a movie.

892
00:39:36.360 --> 00:39:36.840
Yeah.

893
00:39:36.840 --> 00:39:41.039
Well, the way that the Star Trek movies felt big and the way that

894
00:39:41.039 --> 00:39:46.739
the Star Trek movies had the they were able to change the status

895
00:39:46.739 --> 00:39:50.519
quo, things were able to happen to the characters that changed the

896
00:39:50.519 --> 00:39:52.619
way the characters interacted and stuff.

897
00:39:52.679 --> 00:39:55.679
It's definitely there in the, like, we just talked about the

898
00:39:55.679 --> 00:39:58.500
writing quite a bit, but it's definitely there in the writing as

899
00:39:58.500 --> 00:39:58.679
well.

900
00:39:58.739 --> 00:40:00.059
They're just not thinking small.

901
00:40:00.119 --> 00:40:01.380
Yeah.

902
00:40:01.500 --> 00:40:05.519
I feel like the watchword for series 4 is big.

903
00:40:05.579 --> 00:40:06.960
Let's open this out a bit.

904
00:40:07.079 --> 00:40:08.219
Yeah, you know?

905
00:40:08.280 --> 00:40:10.860
Yeah, let's create a playground to play in.

906
00:40:10.920 --> 00:40:13.079
Not just this tiny ship going through space.

907
00:40:13.139 --> 00:40:16.619
And I mean, and still just lots of scenes of people standing in

908
00:40:16.619 --> 00:40:17.639
standing sets talking.

909
00:40:17.699 --> 00:40:18.539
Do you know what I mean?

910
00:40:18.599 --> 00:40:22.260
Like, it's still Star Trek and it's still TV, Star Trek, it's

911
00:40:22.260 --> 00:40:25.920
still 90s trek, even though it's taking place a bit later than

912
00:40:25.920 --> 00:40:26.940
that.

913
00:40:27.000 --> 00:40:30.420
Yeah, this, this, you know, like, oh, unless a man would have told

914
00:40:30.420 --> 00:40:32.699
me the truth, but we didn't see that happen.

915
00:40:32.760 --> 00:40:35.099
He just sort of stopped torturing him for some reason.

916
00:40:35.159 --> 00:40:37.380
It's surprising you know better to see it.

917
00:40:37.440 --> 00:40:40.679
The one scene with Dr. Flox is probably the weakest scene in the

918
00:40:40.679 --> 00:40:40.980
episode.

919
00:40:41.039 --> 00:40:42.719
That's quite rare, French surprise as well.

920
00:40:42.780 --> 00:40:43.860
Yeah.

921
00:40:43.860 --> 00:40:46.920
He's the character that sort of falls away a bit in series four

922
00:40:46.920 --> 00:40:49.559
but I'm wondering if that's got something to do with Billingsley's

923
00:40:49.559 --> 00:40:54.300
very open criticism of season three at the time as well.

924
00:40:54.360 --> 00:40:55.199
Right.

925
00:40:56.760 --> 00:40:59.880
Yeah, he's Captain Shaw again.

926
00:40:59.940 --> 00:41:01.019
What is it?

927
00:41:01.019 --> 00:41:04.139
It's the salad.

928
00:41:04.199 --> 00:41:06.420
You know, the Vulcan salat?

929
00:41:06.480 --> 00:41:13.380
He starts, he starts shaking his feet long before, long before the

930
00:41:13.380 --> 00:41:18.000
they're drawing the, the, um, the lightning bolts on screen.

931
00:41:18.059 --> 00:41:20.280
For those that can't see what we're seeing.

932
00:41:20.400 --> 00:41:23.820
We just saw some spectacular struck down by lightning acting.

933
00:41:23.880 --> 00:41:25.139
Yeah, yeah.

934
00:41:25.199 --> 00:41:26.519
It's pretty false.

935
00:41:26.579 --> 00:41:28.139
Looking like you're having a fit.

936
00:41:28.139 --> 00:41:32.280
But the great thing is too, remember when we were watching a mark

937
00:41:32.280 --> 00:41:36.659
time and we were saying, the designers this week, the stuff that

938
00:41:36.659 --> 00:41:40.860
they design is going to go on and continue being done and done

939
00:41:40.860 --> 00:41:45.119
again. you know, for decades in this stupid show.

940
00:41:45.179 --> 00:41:48.840
And these things that they're fighting with are exactly the things

941
00:41:48.840 --> 00:41:53.340
that Kirk and Spock are fighting with in a muck time in the, you

942
00:41:53.340 --> 00:41:54.420
know, that battle thing.

943
00:41:54.480 --> 00:41:57.659
Yeah, that might be why they look a bit shit.

944
00:41:58.079 --> 00:42:00.059
Yeah, let's have them.

945
00:42:00.119 --> 00:42:01.079
No, let's have them.

946
00:42:01.139 --> 00:42:02.940
They're more designed, I think.

947
00:42:03.000 --> 00:42:07.500
Oh, this so reminds me of the free par at the beginning of series

948
00:42:07.500 --> 00:42:08.400
2, if there's not.

949
00:42:08.460 --> 00:42:09.239
You know, the siege.

950
00:42:09.239 --> 00:42:10.559
Oh, yeah.

951
00:42:10.679 --> 00:42:14.400
Because that ends with Kira going into the Council of Ministers.

952
00:42:14.460 --> 00:42:18.900
Just like Tapal has now to expose Robert Foxworth's character.

953
00:42:18.960 --> 00:42:21.960
But at the same time, there's tons of action going on as well

954
00:42:21.960 --> 00:42:22.619
around them.

955
00:42:23.039 --> 00:42:27.300
So, no, the Vulcans have the death penalty.

956
00:42:27.360 --> 00:42:28.679
Yeah.

957
00:42:29.340 --> 00:42:33.900
That shot there, you know, of the ship's the large ship coming

958
00:42:33.900 --> 00:42:35.280
straight over the camera like that.

959
00:42:35.340 --> 00:42:37.860
That reminded me a bit of Battle Star Galactica, you know.

960
00:42:37.920 --> 00:42:39.960
It's a good looking ship, I think.

961
00:42:41.159 --> 00:42:43.440
Let's not forget as well.

962
00:42:43.500 --> 00:42:46.380
This is the finale of a three-parter.

963
00:42:46.440 --> 00:42:51.539
Trek does not have a great Trek record of finishing its multi

964
00:42:50.039 --> 00:42:51.840
episodes well.

965
00:42:51.900 --> 00:42:54.300
And I don't think this is a disappointment.

966
00:42:54.480 --> 00:43:00.000
No, because I think the thing that this season does really well is

967
00:43:00.000 --> 00:43:06.179
giving each episode a definite thing, right?

968
00:43:06.300 --> 00:43:14.340
So the 1st episode is the quest to find who blew up the embassy.

969
00:43:14.400 --> 00:43:20.760
The 2nd episode is us learning about the Cyranites and, you know

970
00:43:20.760 --> 00:43:21.599
their opponents.

971
00:43:21.659 --> 00:43:23.820
And then this episode is this.

972
00:43:23.880 --> 00:43:27.420
See, this scene doesn't quite work, but they're really trying.

973
00:43:27.539 --> 00:43:31.440
So they've got one angle, we've got Archer in our planetary studio

974
00:43:31.440 --> 00:43:32.159
backdrop.

975
00:43:32.219 --> 00:43:33.179
Yeah, yeah.

976
00:43:33.179 --> 00:43:37.139
And then from the upper angle, we've got some, what do you call

977
00:43:37.139 --> 00:43:37.679
it?

978
00:43:37.739 --> 00:43:38.639
Big CG city.

979
00:43:38.699 --> 00:43:39.239
Yeah.

980
00:43:39.300 --> 00:43:41.880
They're sort of matted in in a very unconvincing way.

981
00:43:41.940 --> 00:43:43.260
Those ships are great.

982
00:43:43.320 --> 00:43:44.579
Look at those ships. aren't they?

983
00:43:44.579 --> 00:43:46.019
They look like mini DS loins.

984
00:43:46.079 --> 00:43:50.159
Well, those Vulcan ships with the circles in them, like that's a

985
00:43:50.159 --> 00:43:50.880
design thing.

986
00:43:50.940 --> 00:43:53.039
I don't know if it's from the original series, but it's certainly

987
00:43:53.039 --> 00:43:56.400
reoccursing Kurtzman Trek, where we see...

988
00:43:56.400 --> 00:43:57.420
But it feels big, doesn't it?

989
00:43:58.440 --> 00:44:00.000
fleets and Dorian ships.

990
00:44:00.059 --> 00:44:03.239
Enterprise is going to go between them and Tripp says, no, no, I'm

991
00:44:03.239 --> 00:44:04.800
going to try and buy some time because they're not going to fire

992
00:44:04.800 --> 00:44:05.340
on us.

993
00:44:05.460 --> 00:44:06.960
Then they start firing on them.

994
00:44:07.019 --> 00:44:08.940
It's actually fucking exciting for once.

995
00:44:09.000 --> 00:44:10.679
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's really good.

996
00:44:10.739 --> 00:44:14.880
But it feels like, like, one false move and this show might be

997
00:44:14.880 --> 00:44:17.400
damaged irreparably, you know, and that's exciting.

998
00:44:17.519 --> 00:44:25.320
Well, even just having the Vulcans fire on Starfleet is pretty

999
00:44:25.320 --> 00:44:28.079
amazing, I think. you think?

1000
00:44:28.139 --> 00:44:28.980
Yeah.

1001
00:44:29.039 --> 00:44:29.880
Oh yeah, yeah, for sure.

1002
00:44:29.940 --> 00:44:30.599
For sure.

1003
00:44:30.719 --> 00:44:33.480
This would not have happened under Bragger and Berman.

1004
00:44:34.019 --> 00:44:36.179
Yeah, I mean, there's, yeah.

1005
00:44:36.239 --> 00:44:40.380
I just don't think they were thinking along these lines, French

1006
00:44:40.380 --> 00:44:40.739
fries.

1007
00:44:41.880 --> 00:44:45.659
I kind of wish many character had come along in 3 in our 2 years

1008
00:44:45.659 --> 00:44:46.320
but never mind.

1009
00:44:46.440 --> 00:44:46.980
Yeah.

1010
00:44:47.039 --> 00:44:50.820
Well, I mean, in three, they do change the status quo though, don't

1011
00:44:50.820 --> 00:44:50.940
they?

1012
00:44:51.000 --> 00:44:52.559
Like they do change the status quo.

1013
00:44:52.619 --> 00:44:56.280
They have an ongoing plot and they do a reasonable job of

1014
00:44:56.280 --> 00:44:57.059
serialising.

1015
00:44:57.179 --> 00:44:58.980
Like, I think they do a good job of serialising.

1016
00:44:59.039 --> 00:45:03.059
I think what Manicoso realises, though, is we can't, we just do

1017
00:45:03.059 --> 00:45:06.659
not have the show to do a season-long arc like that because it

1018
00:45:06.659 --> 00:45:09.360
looks very odd then when we're off doing a Western and things like

1019
00:45:09.360 --> 00:45:11.579
this when there's this weapon.

1020
00:45:11.639 --> 00:45:14.099
So because let's do a series of mini arcs throughout the season

1021
00:45:14.099 --> 00:45:15.420
that leads up to the conclusion.

1022
00:45:15.480 --> 00:45:18.960
Yeah, but they're not just mini arts.

1023
00:45:19.019 --> 00:45:22.139
Yeah, but there are elements from previous things that still go

1024
00:45:22.139 --> 00:45:22.440
on.

1025
00:45:22.500 --> 00:45:25.500
Like we still feel like that this is happening over a period of

1026
00:45:25.500 --> 00:45:26.639
time that means something.

1027
00:45:26.699 --> 00:45:28.440
But 3 wasn't doing that.

1028
00:45:28.500 --> 00:45:30.659
Three rejected one and two.

1029
00:45:30.659 --> 00:45:34.739
I went off into the Zindi expanse or whatever it was called. and

1030
00:45:34.739 --> 00:45:35.519
just did their own thing.

1031
00:45:35.579 --> 00:45:39.719
This feels like it's pulling together the show. and pushing it

1032
00:45:39.719 --> 00:45:40.199
into the future.

1033
00:45:40.559 --> 00:45:41.880
Yeah.

1034
00:45:41.940 --> 00:45:44.219
God bless Malikoto.

1035
00:45:44.280 --> 00:45:45.719
Did he do any more Star Trek after this?

1036
00:45:45.780 --> 00:45:47.099
After Enterprise.

1037
00:45:47.280 --> 00:45:49.380
I can't remember.

1038
00:45:49.500 --> 00:45:52.800
Of course, we lost him like earlier this year, I think.

1039
00:45:52.860 --> 00:45:55.500
I think he passed away fairly recently.

1040
00:45:55.679 --> 00:45:59.940
But I'm sure that there are enough people around telling him how

1041
00:45:59.940 --> 00:46:04.860
much they loved what he managed to do to Enterprise because it

1042
00:46:04.860 --> 00:46:07.380
really is something, and I always sort of thought, I actually was

1043
00:46:07.380 --> 00:46:10.019
a little bit suspicious of it because I've never really liked

1044
00:46:10.019 --> 00:46:12.960
Enterprise, and then everyone comes along and says, oh, there's a

1045
00:46:12.960 --> 00:46:15.659
whole three-part arc where we discover why the Klingons have

1046
00:46:15.659 --> 00:46:19.079
smooth foreheads in original track, and I think, oh, great.

1047
00:46:19.139 --> 00:46:20.460
That sounds really awesome.

1048
00:46:20.519 --> 00:46:24.300
So, so I'd always been a bit suspicious of it.

1049
00:46:24.360 --> 00:46:25.860
But actually watching it.

1050
00:46:25.920 --> 00:46:28.079
I think it's really enjoyable.

1051
00:46:28.139 --> 00:46:32.639
He produced the 1st 4 seasons of 24 after this.

1052
00:46:32.699 --> 00:46:36.000
Oh, when it was interesting. absolute high.

1053
00:46:36.059 --> 00:46:39.179
So let's let's have a moment for Manicoto. and clearly could put

1054
00:46:39.179 --> 00:46:40.079
together a TV show.

1055
00:46:40.139 --> 00:46:41.280
Sure.

1056
00:46:41.340 --> 00:46:41.820
Yep.

1057
00:46:42.360 --> 00:46:48.420
And it just it just goes to show this show desperately needed a

1058
00:46:48.420 --> 00:46:50.940
fresh creative voice.

1059
00:46:51.000 --> 00:46:51.179
Yeah.

1060
00:46:51.239 --> 00:46:53.159
You know, that was the problem all along.

1061
00:46:53.219 --> 00:46:57.119
Burman says that Enterprise didn't work because it was suffering

1062
00:46:57.119 --> 00:46:59.039
from, what, Trek fatigue?

1063
00:46:59.099 --> 00:46:59.820
No, no, no.

1064
00:46:59.880 --> 00:47:02.159
We were suffering from Berman, fatigue.

1065
00:47:02.219 --> 00:47:03.599
Berman, Virginia, yeah.

1066
00:47:03.659 --> 00:47:06.719
Koto kind of proves that with this last season.

1067
00:47:07.260 --> 00:47:10.320
That woman is an anarchist captain.

1068
00:47:10.380 --> 00:47:12.300
I love that line.

1069
00:47:12.360 --> 00:47:14.280
That was so interesting.

1070
00:47:14.340 --> 00:47:15.300
That was so good.

1071
00:47:17.099 --> 00:47:20.460
Oh that terrible design behind them.

1072
00:47:20.519 --> 00:47:21.360
What is that?

1073
00:47:21.420 --> 00:47:23.039
Yeah, I don't know.

1074
00:47:23.039 --> 00:47:23.519
It used to be.

1075
00:47:23.579 --> 00:47:26.639
It looks so cheap, this set, compared to everything.

1076
00:47:26.699 --> 00:47:27.360
Yeah, doesn't it?

1077
00:47:27.420 --> 00:47:29.880
It's not exactly where you want the denouement, is it?

1078
00:47:29.940 --> 00:47:32.280
No, nobody's bit crap.

1079
00:47:32.340 --> 00:47:33.960
Oh, here we go, though.

1080
00:47:34.019 --> 00:47:37.139
We're going to have the lasers going up in the air now from the

1081
00:47:37.139 --> 00:47:37.920
Kishara.

1082
00:47:38.579 --> 00:47:40.980
Yeah, I think this is probably good.

1083
00:47:41.760 --> 00:47:45.599
I kept expecting him to shoot it or something, like to pull out a

1084
00:47:45.599 --> 00:47:47.219
gun and kind of shoot.

1085
00:47:47.280 --> 00:47:49.260
Oh my god, I just saw that backdrop of the buildings.

1086
00:47:49.320 --> 00:47:49.800
Did you think?

1087
00:47:49.860 --> 00:47:52.079
Yeah, yeah, yeah. really not good.

1088
00:47:52.139 --> 00:47:58.559
But it looks like a science fiction novel cover. you know, A Hugo

1089
00:47:58.559 --> 00:48:00.539
Award-winning science fiction novel.

1090
00:48:00.599 --> 00:48:02.940
Professor Bernie Somerville, New Adventure.

1091
00:48:04.739 --> 00:48:06.659
Like you say it.

1092
00:48:06.719 --> 00:48:10.139
Like we are forging our way to the Vulcans that we know and love

1093
00:48:10.139 --> 00:48:10.920
in TRS.

1094
00:48:10.980 --> 00:48:12.059
This all means something.

1095
00:48:12.119 --> 00:48:13.199
This means something.

1096
00:48:13.260 --> 00:48:16.079
Like, it means something to Star Trek fans.

1097
00:48:16.139 --> 00:48:19.320
But let's be honest, we're the only people still watching it.

1098
00:48:19.380 --> 00:48:20.219
We're the only people left.

1099
00:48:20.280 --> 00:48:21.239
Yeah that's right.

1100
00:48:21.300 --> 00:48:24.539
I think they know that though. you know, play to your audience.

1101
00:48:24.599 --> 00:48:25.139
Yeah.

1102
00:48:25.199 --> 00:48:29.760
Well, do you remember when, so we had that character, Arev or

1103
00:48:29.760 --> 00:48:30.000
something?

1104
00:48:30.059 --> 00:48:33.840
I can't remember his name, the guy who was Cyrin, the guy who led

1105
00:48:33.840 --> 00:48:37.260
the Cyrinites, who meets them in the cave and then dies, and then

1106
00:48:37.260 --> 00:48:42.840
he puts his hand on, um, on Archer's head and then says, remember

1107
00:48:42.840 --> 00:48:44.579
in Vulcan.

1108
00:48:44.639 --> 00:48:48.780
And so it's that moment from Roth of Khan, isn't it?

1109
00:48:48.840 --> 00:48:50.880
Like that, that very moment.

1110
00:48:51.539 --> 00:48:56.519
In Robert Foxworth's turn as Admiral Layton, right?

1111
00:48:56.579 --> 00:49:01.199
He played that part for out, mostly very, not flat, but kind of

1112
00:49:01.199 --> 00:49:04.500
considered, yeah. which means in the in the climax where Cisco

1113
00:49:04.500 --> 00:49:08.639
bestsim, he finally loses his rag and he goes, it's not, oh, wow

1114
00:49:08.639 --> 00:49:11.639
then he bangs his fist down and it really makes you sit up because

1115
00:49:11.639 --> 00:49:13.019
he's been so sort of.

1116
00:49:13.139 --> 00:49:16.079
Whereas this fella has been sort of angry now for the last 3

1117
00:49:16.079 --> 00:49:16.500
scenes.

1118
00:49:16.559 --> 00:49:18.360
It doesn't have the same impact at all.

1119
00:49:18.420 --> 00:49:22.619
No, because he's like ordering massacres and stuff like that on

1120
00:49:22.619 --> 00:49:25.559
religious minorities and things like he's really clearly not

1121
00:49:25.679 --> 00:49:26.820
destroy the entire city.

1122
00:49:26.880 --> 00:49:29.400
No, I'd usually mind that sort of thing, but it's a bit weird

1123
00:49:29.400 --> 00:49:30.239
coming from a Vulcan.

1124
00:49:30.300 --> 00:49:31.679
Yeah, yeah.

1125
00:49:31.739 --> 00:49:36.300
I say trip looks very dramatic there with the dry ice pumping away

1126
00:49:36.300 --> 00:49:36.599
behind him.

1127
00:49:37.199 --> 00:49:39.539
Well, it's really interesting.

1128
00:49:39.599 --> 00:49:43.079
That look, though, is Tripp going, why are they not firing on us?

1129
00:49:43.079 --> 00:49:44.400
How come that stopped?

1130
00:49:44.460 --> 00:49:45.840
And I did like the fate.

1131
00:49:46.920 --> 00:49:49.800
Well, we don't have to have the captain's log, although we do.

1132
00:49:49.860 --> 00:49:52.619
We have a phase straight to Vulcan, so we're there, you know?

1133
00:49:52.679 --> 00:49:53.880
Yeah, yeah.

1134
00:49:56.940 --> 00:49:59.639
You and I have never, ever spoken with this much energy about

1135
00:49:59.639 --> 00:50:02.760
Enterprise in this entire run of untitled Star Trek project.

1136
00:50:02.820 --> 00:50:04.800
Yeah, it's pretty funny, isn't it?

1137
00:50:04.860 --> 00:50:08.400
This has been, well, apart from a night in Sick Bay, which was

1138
00:50:08.400 --> 00:50:08.820
pretty great.

1139
00:50:08.880 --> 00:50:13.739
This has been, um, poor old once his face.

1140
00:50:13.800 --> 00:50:15.539
Oh, I did like this, though.

1141
00:50:15.599 --> 00:50:17.579
Yeah, I did too.

1142
00:50:17.699 --> 00:50:20.219
He goes, look, I was only I was only doing it for your mother.

1143
00:50:20.280 --> 00:50:21.119
Now she's gone.

1144
00:50:21.179 --> 00:50:21.960
And she's dead.

1145
00:50:22.019 --> 00:50:23.460
In fact, we talked all over that soon.

1146
00:50:23.519 --> 00:50:27.119
I've got to say that seemed genuinely did sneak up on me and make

1147
00:50:27.119 --> 00:50:28.199
me not choke up.

1148
00:50:28.260 --> 00:50:30.659
Well, we didn't see her die.

1149
00:50:30.780 --> 00:50:36.239
That happened last week in last week's episode, like in the...

1150
00:50:36.239 --> 00:50:36.780
Awakening.

1151
00:50:36.840 --> 00:50:38.219
Oh, okay, yeah, yeah.

1152
00:50:38.280 --> 00:50:40.260
And I thought that that was really good.

1153
00:50:40.320 --> 00:50:44.280
And Jolene got to do some acting and it was tremendous.

1154
00:50:44.340 --> 00:50:46.500
Because I was both established.

1155
00:50:46.559 --> 00:50:49.260
Yeah, and home and like you said, a few others after that.

1156
00:50:49.320 --> 00:50:50.280
Yeah, yeah.

1157
00:50:50.340 --> 00:50:54.239
Yeah, but it was just a very tender scene, wasn't it?

1158
00:50:54.300 --> 00:50:56.099
Where she says, I've always been so proud of you.

1159
00:50:56.159 --> 00:51:00.599
But all of the, even before that, their scenes together were super

1160
00:51:00.599 --> 00:51:04.559
interesting and and I think they really worked.

1161
00:51:04.619 --> 00:51:06.000
But Cos comes in.

1162
00:51:06.059 --> 00:51:09.960
The trouble with Kos is that he's just got the worst fucking Nile

1163
00:51:09.960 --> 00:51:14.400
on Vulcan wig and it's all you can look at in his scenes.

1164
00:51:14.460 --> 00:51:19.860
It's so bad It's just unusual because I very rarely feel anything

1165
00:51:19.860 --> 00:51:22.619
for enterprise, bar a crushing sense of disappointment.

1166
00:51:22.679 --> 00:51:25.500
So to actually be moved by a scene.

1167
00:51:25.559 --> 00:51:26.039
Yeah.

1168
00:51:26.039 --> 00:51:27.420
What's happening?

1169
00:51:27.719 --> 00:51:30.360
Are you sure I'm watching Enterprise?

1170
00:51:30.420 --> 00:51:35.820
I was getting elderly Nemoy vibes from the priest who ends up with

1171
00:51:35.820 --> 00:51:37.440
Surax cartridges then.

1172
00:51:37.500 --> 00:51:38.639
We just see him from that.

1173
00:51:38.699 --> 00:51:40.920
I was getting Scott Pacular going, oh, come on, I've got to try

1174
00:51:40.920 --> 00:51:42.179
and get this vocal salute right.

1175
00:51:42.239 --> 00:51:43.139
Can you do that?

1176
00:51:43.199 --> 00:51:44.340
I can just do that. there you go.

1177
00:51:44.400 --> 00:51:45.840
Yeah, it's super easy.

1178
00:51:45.900 --> 00:51:46.860
Yeah, yeah.

1179
00:51:46.920 --> 00:51:48.480
Yeah, what's wrong with people?

1180
00:51:48.539 --> 00:51:50.519
Oh, no, please go.

1181
00:51:50.579 --> 00:51:52.199
Look at that backdrop in the back.

1182
00:51:52.380 --> 00:51:54.719
Just one more look.

1183
00:51:54.780 --> 00:51:57.059
It's actually quite deco, isn't it, the city?

1184
00:51:57.119 --> 00:51:59.219
I think it looks actually quite good in that backdrop.

1185
00:51:59.280 --> 00:52:03.539
It is clearly a paper. had any sense of 3D depth to it.

1186
00:52:03.840 --> 00:52:08.460
So you only get this tag scene, which we very nearly didn't have

1187
00:52:08.460 --> 00:52:13.679
like I said, because it was kind of like, um, uh, we we didn't

1188
00:52:13.679 --> 00:52:17.340
have anyone who was going to deliver these lines.

1189
00:52:17.820 --> 00:52:22.800
Did I tell you that I was spoiled that REv was was Cyrin?

1190
00:52:22.860 --> 00:52:26.579
I mean, he clearly obviously was in episode two.

1191
00:52:26.639 --> 00:52:34.980
But, uh, the Amazon Prime's subtitles, which subtitle it, I just

1192
00:52:34.980 --> 00:52:35.639
gave his name.

1193
00:52:35.639 --> 00:52:37.199
Oh, that's serious.

1194
00:52:38.039 --> 00:52:41.519
Boy, lose Amazon Prime subtitles.

1195
00:52:41.579 --> 00:52:42.119
Yeah.

1196
00:52:42.119 --> 00:52:46.380
So the reunification of our people is only a matter of time.

1197
00:52:46.440 --> 00:52:49.260
And I think that is clearly like, let's go somewhere with this, but

1198
00:52:49.260 --> 00:52:50.639
it just never ends up happening.

1199
00:52:50.699 --> 00:52:51.659
Well, it's a shame.

1200
00:52:51.659 --> 00:52:56.340
That sort of unification between the Vulcans and the Romulas.

1201
00:52:56.400 --> 00:52:57.239
We ever cover that again?

1202
00:52:57.300 --> 00:53:00.000
It never comes up as far as I know.

1203
00:53:00.119 --> 00:53:04.739
A bloody nerve of Star Trek discovery doing unification number

1204
00:53:04.739 --> 00:53:05.039
three.

1205
00:53:05.039 --> 00:53:06.840
Unification part three.

1206
00:53:09.360 --> 00:53:11.699
This is enterprise.

1207
00:53:11.760 --> 00:53:15.480
It is tying this bloody show into the fabric of Star Trek.

1208
00:53:15.539 --> 00:53:17.099
It's so refreshing.

1209
00:53:17.219 --> 00:53:21.119
And giving Star Trek history, like giving the Vulcans a history

1210
00:53:21.119 --> 00:53:25.260
making this a story about how the Vulcans go from being the sort

1211
00:53:25.260 --> 00:53:28.739
of sort of slightly terrible people to being the Falcons that we

1212
00:53:28.739 --> 00:53:29.039
know.

1213
00:53:29.099 --> 00:53:33.179
So they're subject to the forces of history as much as we are and

1214
00:53:33.179 --> 00:53:34.619
they grow the way that we do.

1215
00:53:34.679 --> 00:53:39.000
What it's doing this season as well, is like before this, yeah

1216
00:53:39.000 --> 00:53:41.519
like the Zindi Arc, as we said, is basically something that

1217
00:53:41.519 --> 00:53:42.420
everyone forgot about.

1218
00:53:42.480 --> 00:53:44.579
A lot of fun, but everyone sort of forgot about it.

1219
00:53:44.639 --> 00:53:47.460
The 1st 2 years, who gives a fuck about those people going out

1220
00:53:47.460 --> 00:53:49.980
into space, we don't care about those people, that's not going to

1221
00:53:49.980 --> 00:53:51.000
affect Star Trek in the future.

1222
00:53:51.059 --> 00:53:54.239
This whole season, the formation of the federation, the Vulcans

1223
00:53:54.239 --> 00:53:54.599
here.

1224
00:53:54.659 --> 00:53:58.619
This is all stuff that is now in, you cannot tell the Star Trek

1225
00:53:58.619 --> 00:54:00.059
story without these details in it.

1226
00:54:00.119 --> 00:54:03.239
So this season is finally making enterprise count.

1227
00:54:03.780 --> 00:54:06.300
Parata Manico, sorry.

1228
00:54:06.360 --> 00:54:11.519
Yeah, but in a way that doesn't matter quite so much as the

1229
00:54:11.519 --> 00:54:13.679
fact...

1230
00:54:13.679 --> 00:54:17.519
It does, but I think that it's the willingness to change the

1231
00:54:17.519 --> 00:54:23.039
status quo and to tell a continuous story and to let things have

1232
00:54:23.039 --> 00:54:26.639
room to breathe and to give everything a bit of a scale.

1233
00:54:26.760 --> 00:54:31.739
In, you know, the climax to season two, you know, when they tear

1234
00:54:31.739 --> 00:54:34.679
the strip for America and murder all those people and all of

1235
00:54:34.679 --> 00:54:34.860
that.

1236
00:54:34.920 --> 00:54:37.559
And then we go off into the Zindie space and all that.

1237
00:54:37.619 --> 00:54:39.539
And I was like, yeah, none of this is going to impact at all.

1238
00:54:39.659 --> 00:54:42.900
This isn't changing the status quo because we're never going to do

1239
00:54:42.900 --> 00:54:46.199
with any of this stuff, but we're now dealing with big, you know

1240
00:54:46.199 --> 00:54:49.980
galactic superpowers that we actually deal with in TOS and in 90s

1241
00:54:49.980 --> 00:54:50.400
trek.

1242
00:54:50.460 --> 00:54:51.000
Yeah.

1243
00:54:51.599 --> 00:54:51.780
Yeah.

1244
00:54:51.840 --> 00:54:54.300
Do you know what it reminds me of?

1245
00:54:54.360 --> 00:54:59.280
This is super weird, but it actually reminds me of the most recent

1246
00:54:59.280 --> 00:55:03.719
series of the Orville, which I still haven't seen that.

1247
00:55:04.320 --> 00:55:04.860
Yeah.

1248
00:55:04.920 --> 00:55:06.360
It does the same thing.

1249
00:55:06.420 --> 00:55:11.219
So it is not super long, but it has episodes that are quite long

1250
00:55:11.219 --> 00:55:14.159
like that are sometimes like 2 hours and stuff.

1251
00:55:14.219 --> 00:55:16.320
Like each individual episode is quite long.

1252
00:55:16.380 --> 00:55:19.739
They're like little miniature movies and they change the status

1253
00:55:19.739 --> 00:55:20.579
quo.

1254
00:55:20.639 --> 00:55:26.099
We see that things change and every individual story has that sort

1255
00:55:26.099 --> 00:55:26.820
of scale.

1256
00:55:26.880 --> 00:55:30.420
And I think that that's what makes this good.

1257
00:55:30.480 --> 00:55:34.199
Like, it's extra good for us because it's plugging into Star Trek

1258
00:55:34.199 --> 00:55:38.460
history and, you know, becoming a sort of just so story about how

1259
00:55:38.460 --> 00:55:42.900
we got to where we are when the whole show starts in 1966.

1260
00:55:43.559 --> 00:55:48.599
But I think that in itself, it's a more entertaining, more

1261
00:55:48.599 --> 00:55:52.559
ambitious show that's doing more fun things than it ever has been

1262
00:55:52.559 --> 00:55:52.980
before.

1263
00:55:53.039 --> 00:55:56.039
And that's really why I enjoyed it, I think.

1264
00:55:56.099 --> 00:55:58.800
The only thing they've got left to do now.

1265
00:55:58.860 --> 00:56:02.099
Yeah, it's to start laughing at themselves a bit more.

1266
00:56:02.219 --> 00:56:05.760
And actually, like I said to you, they get there in that two

1267
00:56:05.099 --> 00:56:09.179
parter in the alternative universe, at the end of series four, they

1268
00:56:09.179 --> 00:56:14.219
just suddenly, you can feel the actors visibly relaxing as they're

1269
00:56:14.219 --> 00:56:15.780
having incredible fun.

1270
00:56:15.840 --> 00:56:17.699
And it's like, well, that's it.

1271
00:56:17.820 --> 00:56:20.400
I'm sorry, they're having far too much fun on Enterprise.

1272
00:56:20.460 --> 00:56:21.719
Cancel the show.

1273
00:56:21.780 --> 00:56:22.320
All the plug.

1274
00:56:31.380 --> 00:56:35.639
All right, it's the end of the episode, and so it's time for us to

1275
00:56:35.639 --> 00:56:37.679
pick what we're going to be watching next.

1276
00:56:37.739 --> 00:56:40.260
Keshara was my excellent choice.

1277
00:56:40.320 --> 00:56:43.019
Yeah, finally you've chosen an excellent choice.

1278
00:56:43.679 --> 00:56:46.800
So it's your turn to wreck it all for us.

1279
00:56:46.980 --> 00:56:48.840
I was on a great run.

1280
00:56:48.900 --> 00:56:50.519
Now I'm going to choose a stinker.

1281
00:56:50.579 --> 00:56:52.380
Yeah, maybe we're swapping.

1282
00:56:52.440 --> 00:56:54.480
I'm going to do something I haven't done for a little while.

1283
00:56:54.539 --> 00:56:55.679
Okay.

1284
00:56:55.679 --> 00:56:57.179
That's put in all the shows.

1285
00:56:57.239 --> 00:57:01.559
Now, I realise this does tip the randomiser in 90s Treks favour

1286
00:57:01.559 --> 00:57:04.920
and we have done a fair bit of 90s lately, but unfortunately

1287
00:57:04.920 --> 00:57:05.639
there's a lot of it.

1288
00:57:05.699 --> 00:57:07.019
We've got to get through it.

1289
00:57:07.079 --> 00:57:07.619
Really years.

1290
00:57:07.980 --> 00:57:10.079
Here we go.

1291
00:57:10.139 --> 00:57:12.360
Ooh.

1292
00:57:13.139 --> 00:57:18.960
Your random Star Voyager episode is season six, episode 22.

1293
00:57:19.559 --> 00:57:21.239
News.

1294
00:57:21.420 --> 00:57:24.960
Oh, I really like news.

1295
00:57:25.079 --> 00:57:26.940
I think we should do it.

1296
00:57:27.000 --> 00:57:28.920
Yeah, I'm wondering if we should as well.

1297
00:57:28.980 --> 00:57:31.199
Last time we did season six.

1298
00:57:31.260 --> 00:57:34.800
It was those dreadful ball kids coming on the ship.

1299
00:57:34.860 --> 00:57:35.340
Do you remember?

1300
00:57:35.460 --> 00:57:38.039
We didn't say anything nice.

1301
00:57:38.280 --> 00:57:44.760
I think the thing that interests me the most about this is that

1302
00:57:44.760 --> 00:57:49.019
the drama that they're doing is based on ancient Greek drama.

1303
00:57:49.079 --> 00:57:50.039
I think it is.

1304
00:57:50.039 --> 00:57:51.420
Yeah.

1305
00:57:51.480 --> 00:57:56.280
And so that form of storytelling and that very stylised thing

1306
00:57:56.280 --> 00:58:00.780
because the Greeks, as far as Europe's concerned, the Greeks

1307
00:58:00.780 --> 00:58:09.480
invent drama, and it starts off very stylised, so we're in a drama

1308
00:58:09.480 --> 00:58:15.179
that's now being told in this other, in this other mode by sort of

1309
00:58:15.179 --> 00:58:19.019
long speeches from just a small number of actors and a chorus and

1310
00:58:19.019 --> 00:58:19.500
stuff like that.

1311
00:58:19.559 --> 00:58:23.760
And I just remember that being really properly interesting.

1312
00:58:23.820 --> 00:58:28.739
She starts telling them about the Voyager exploits and they start

1313
00:58:28.739 --> 00:58:30.719
putting those on as plays.

1314
00:58:30.780 --> 00:58:34.320
I seem to remember in the great style with a court.

1315
00:58:34.380 --> 00:58:35.159
It's really wonderful.

1316
00:58:35.219 --> 00:58:39.539
And our darling Tom Solinski was not impressed by this at all.

1317
00:58:39.599 --> 00:58:42.360
So here's an opportunity for us to tell us why he was wrong.

1318
00:58:43.739 --> 00:58:44.579
Okay, that'll be fun too.

1319
00:58:44.639 --> 00:58:45.539
Excellent.

1320
00:58:53.639 --> 00:58:57.719
You've been listening to untitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford

1321
00:58:57.719 --> 00:58:58.920
and Nathan Bottomley.

1322
00:58:58.920 --> 00:59:02.519
We're online at Untitled Star Trek Project.com, where you can find

1323
00:59:02.519 --> 00:59:05.280
subscription links and links to our social media accounts.

1324
00:59:05.340 --> 00:59:09.239
Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceran, and the theme was

1325
00:59:09.239 --> 00:59:10.920
composed by Cameron Lam.

1326
00:59:10.980 --> 00:59:15.599
This episode was recorded on the 24th of October 2023 and released

1327
00:59:15.599 --> 00:59:17.099
on the 27th of October.

1328
00:59:17.159 --> 00:59:20.880
We'll see you next time for Star Trek Voyager news.

1329
00:59:38.940 --> 00:59:40.260
Oh, that's a good choice.

1330
00:59:40.320 --> 00:59:41.639
That's a good choice.

1331
00:59:41.760 --> 00:59:42.420
Yeah, that'll be good.

1332
00:59:42.480 --> 00:59:43.739
Yeah, that turned out.

1333
00:59:43.860 --> 00:59:46.800
I'll basically shut up during that episode because I think you're

1334
00:59:46.800 --> 00:59:47.639
going to have a lot to say.

1335
00:59:49.380 --> 00:59:53.579
Yeah, I remember being hugely impressed by that just because it

1336
00:59:53.579 --> 00:59:54.480
was...

1337
00:59:54.539 --> 00:59:55.440
Do you know what surrounds it?

1338
00:59:55.500 --> 01:00:00.059
All in a deck 12 fury, all this bullshit they were doing.

1339
01:00:00.119 --> 01:00:04.139
In the middle, there's this very smart, very interesting script.

1340
01:00:04.559 --> 01:00:09.119
Yeah, and it's a thing about Voyager. like it's a show about

1341
01:00:09.119 --> 01:00:10.199
Voyager, isn't it?

1342
01:00:10.260 --> 01:00:13.559
It would be nice to do another B'lana episode because the only one

1343
01:00:13.559 --> 01:00:16.019
we've done so far is the 1st one we did lineage.

1344
01:00:16.079 --> 01:00:20.460
Did you notice that Roxanne directed one of those episodes?

1345
01:00:20.699 --> 01:00:24.480
You didn't have to tell me that somebody that got their education

1346
01:00:24.480 --> 01:00:26.820
from 90s Trek directed that middle episode.

1347
01:00:26.940 --> 01:00:28.079
Arcatel.

1348
01:00:28.139 --> 01:00:32.400
I saw her name, but as I was watching it, I was going, yep, that's

1349
01:00:32.400 --> 01:00:36.239
the same filters as 90s Trek. caves are being shot in the same

1350
01:00:36.239 --> 01:00:36.840
sort of way.

1351
01:00:36.900 --> 01:00:39.599
And then in the last episode, it was like a current director again

1352
01:00:39.659 --> 01:00:40.800
you know the pace was moving.

1353
01:00:40.860 --> 01:00:43.019
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1354
01:00:43.079 --> 01:00:45.659
Yeah, no, I'm glad she was still working on it.

1355
01:00:45.719 --> 01:00:49.739
That's pretty good She's done tons of work since...

1356
01:00:49.800 --> 01:00:52.320
I don't think she, but mostly in like genre television.

1357
01:00:52.380 --> 01:00:53.460
I know she did some smallville.

1358
01:00:53.699 --> 01:00:55.199
Oh, okay.

1359
01:00:55.199 --> 01:00:56.760
I think she's been busy.

1360
01:00:56.820 --> 01:01:01.980
But I really like B'lana and I really like Roxanne Dawson

1361
01:01:01.980 --> 01:01:02.579
performance.

1362
01:01:02.639 --> 01:01:03.539
So it would be nice.

1363
01:01:03.599 --> 01:01:04.019
Me too.

1364
01:01:04.019 --> 01:01:06.840
And season 6 with Barge of the Dead and News.

1365
01:01:06.900 --> 01:01:10.019
It's the season where they remembered how good that character is

1366
01:01:10.019 --> 01:01:11.460
and gave a great stuff to do.

1367
01:01:11.519 --> 01:01:13.440
So it'd be nice to talk about that as well.

1368
01:01:13.860 --> 01:01:19.559
Like, when we, like, I think we like the actors in DS9 better than

1369
01:01:19.559 --> 01:01:21.239
any other 90s trek.

1370
01:01:21.300 --> 01:01:25.380
Like just when you talk about the people named in the opening

1371
01:01:25.380 --> 01:01:27.420
credits. you know what I mean?

1372
01:01:27.480 --> 01:01:31.019
Like, you've got some pretty incredible people, but then you think

1373
01:01:31.019 --> 01:01:36.000
about Voyager and it, you know, like, it's got Kate, Ethan

1374
01:01:36.000 --> 01:01:41.099
Phillips, it's got, it's got, um, Tim Russ, you know, it's got

1375
01:01:41.099 --> 01:01:44.519
Roxanne. like those are not bad.

1376
01:01:44.940 --> 01:01:47.280
It's got Jerry, isn't it?

1377
01:01:47.340 --> 01:01:49.019
They're just not given the opportunities.

1378
01:01:49.079 --> 01:01:50.219
That's the annoying.

1379
01:01:50.280 --> 01:01:53.760
Whereas on DSI, they can't mostly...

1380
01:01:53.820 --> 01:01:56.400
So did we get the best out of them?

1381
01:01:56.460 --> 01:01:57.659
Probably not Voyager.

1382
01:01:57.719 --> 01:01:58.380
No.

1383
01:01:58.440 --> 01:02:01.079
Yeah, well, like, yeah.

1384
01:02:01.139 --> 01:02:05.340
And like even that the Tuvog thing last week where it was all

1385
01:02:05.340 --> 01:02:08.099
about, you know, how he had no emotions and couldn't feel

1386
01:02:08.099 --> 01:02:08.940
emotions.

1387
01:02:09.000 --> 01:02:12.239
And like even on enterprise, they know that that's not what

1388
01:02:12.239 --> 01:02:13.199
Vulcans are.

1389
01:02:13.260 --> 01:02:17.159
You know, that they have to work hard to keep their emotions in

1390
01:02:17.159 --> 01:02:17.519
check.

1391
01:02:17.880 --> 01:02:22.500
And that's so much more interesting. they look for moments.

1392
01:02:22.559 --> 01:02:26.219
They're just, like, they're not given moments, so they like, it's

1393
01:02:26.219 --> 01:02:28.019
a bit like Colin Baker in the, in the 80s.

1394
01:02:28.079 --> 01:02:31.139
He's trying desperately to find moments of humour and things

1395
01:02:31.139 --> 01:02:31.500
aren't they?

1396
01:02:32.099 --> 01:02:34.019
I tried the line the other day, you know.

1397
01:02:34.079 --> 01:02:36.780
I was taking a bath and I tried the, but I did it in Kate

1398
01:02:36.780 --> 01:02:37.619
Mulgary's voice.

1399
01:02:37.679 --> 01:02:40.019
You know, when she's in the bath and she goes, how did you put

1400
01:02:40.019 --> 01:02:40.440
your leg up?

1401
01:02:40.500 --> 01:02:42.059
She goes, Chakotay, are you there?

1402
01:02:42.119 --> 01:02:44.699
So I went, Mark, are you there?

1403
01:02:44.760 --> 01:02:45.539
Fly out.

1404
01:02:45.539 --> 01:02:47.460
A very odd look.

1405
01:02:47.519 --> 01:02:48.300
I was like, oh.

1406
01:02:48.300 --> 01:02:52.019
And yes, you can put that in the end if you like.

1407
01:02:52.260 --> 01:02:54.840
Don't you worry, it's in the end.

1408
01:02:56.400 --> 01:02:59.880
Yeah, she's listening to me at Star Trek Enterprise, Crossing

1409
01:02:59.880 --> 01:03:04.199
Jordan, Cold Case, Heroes, the Mentalists, Agents of Shield, Mercy

1410
01:03:04.199 --> 01:03:06.480
Street, the Juice, Foundation.

1411
01:03:06.539 --> 01:03:07.139
She hasn't stopped.

1412
01:03:07.260 --> 01:03:08.820
Foundation.

1413
01:03:08.880 --> 01:03:09.840
Yeah.

1414
01:03:10.380 --> 01:03:15.780
Both Robert and Brendan really like Foundation.

1415
01:03:15.840 --> 01:03:17.820
And so it's Apple TV.

1416
01:03:17.880 --> 01:03:20.400
It looks amazing, apparently.

1417
01:03:20.460 --> 01:03:23.340
Like it's amazingly weird looking sci-fi.

1418
01:03:23.400 --> 01:03:25.199
I'm just put off that.

1419
01:03:25.260 --> 01:03:26.880
Oh my god, she did lost the OC.

1420
01:03:27.000 --> 01:03:28.440
Wow.

1421
01:03:28.500 --> 01:03:30.659
The mentalist, I quite like that.

1422
01:03:30.719 --> 01:03:31.619
Prime suspect.

1423
01:03:31.679 --> 01:03:33.480
Prime suspect.

1424
01:03:33.539 --> 01:03:34.980
The British show.

1425
01:03:35.039 --> 01:03:36.300
English one, surely.

1426
01:03:36.420 --> 01:03:37.559
No.

1427
01:03:37.559 --> 01:03:38.460
Tap on the link.

1428
01:03:38.519 --> 01:03:40.139
Oh, the American version.

1429
01:03:40.260 --> 01:03:41.340
Yeah, okay.

1430
01:03:41.400 --> 01:03:42.239
Under the dome.

1431
01:03:42.300 --> 01:03:43.679
I remember people talking about that the time.

1432
01:03:43.739 --> 01:03:45.659
Three episodes of Ancient of Shield.

1433
01:03:45.719 --> 01:03:47.400
Oh, Revolution. was terrible.

1434
01:03:50.219 --> 01:03:53.699
She literally, look, she literally has not stops.

1435
01:03:53.760 --> 01:03:55.500
Like, oh, good for her.

1436
01:03:55.559 --> 01:03:56.340
That's happy.

1437
01:03:56.400 --> 01:03:56.760
I like that.

1438
01:03:56.820 --> 01:03:59.340
She should come back to Star Trek?

1439
01:03:59.400 --> 01:04:00.179
No, she should.

1440
01:04:00.239 --> 01:04:01.860
They've still got Jonathan.

1441
01:04:01.920 --> 01:04:03.900
You should do more acting though.

1442
01:04:03.960 --> 01:04:05.699
She's a good actress, Roxanne Dawson.

1443
01:04:05.760 --> 01:04:05.940
Yeah.

1444
01:04:07.860 --> 01:04:11.099
I always remember the bit where in...

1445
01:04:11.099 --> 01:04:13.800
The scene, the episode in series 3.

1446
01:04:14.820 --> 01:04:18.659
Well, I'd almost written off series 3 at that and then she got

1447
01:04:18.659 --> 01:04:21.420
that episode where she was having those holocaust flashbacks.

1448
01:04:21.539 --> 01:04:25.199
There's been like violations, but it was like a running storyline

1449
01:04:25.199 --> 01:04:27.840
that was taking place in a red, but she's playing the character.

1450
01:04:28.559 --> 01:04:32.400
Who. was against it.

1451
01:04:32.460 --> 01:04:36.780
And at the end, she has to go into, she has to publicly declare

1452
01:04:36.780 --> 01:04:39.960
that their people are gonna wipe out a race of people.

1453
01:04:40.019 --> 01:04:47.699
And as written, it's okay, as acted, it's so powerful the way she

1454
01:04:47.699 --> 01:04:48.360
the way she does it.

1455
01:04:48.480 --> 01:04:51.840
Is it like, in a light where she's...

1456
01:04:51.840 --> 01:04:54.179
A bit like that...

1457
01:04:54.239 --> 01:04:57.300
But it's a bit like violations as well because it's this group of

1458
01:04:57.300 --> 01:05:00.000
innocent appearing aliens on the ship.

1459
01:05:00.239 --> 01:05:01.619
Right.

1460
01:05:01.679 --> 01:05:04.440
And then you've got to try and figure out who's given the visions

1461
01:05:04.440 --> 01:05:05.880
you know, as a vision of the episode.

1462
01:05:05.940 --> 01:05:07.500
So it's like a procedural as well going on.

1463
01:05:07.559 --> 01:05:08.579
Right, right.

1464
01:05:08.639 --> 01:05:09.300
It's a good episode.

1465
01:05:09.360 --> 01:05:10.079
What's that one called?

1466
01:05:10.440 --> 01:05:12.000
Remember.

1467
01:05:12.059 --> 01:05:13.679
Oh, okay.

1468
01:05:13.739 --> 01:05:14.280
Remember.

1469
01:05:14.340 --> 01:05:14.820
Yeah.

1470
01:05:14.880 --> 01:05:20.699
It's like the, um, What they're talking about is a bit obvious, and

1471
01:05:20.699 --> 01:05:22.619
then the scripting is all a bit obvious.

1472
01:05:22.739 --> 01:05:25.619
There's a sequence where somebody is, you know, tortured and

1473
01:05:25.619 --> 01:05:26.579
burned and all that.

1474
01:05:26.639 --> 01:05:30.659
But her performance is really sensitive throughout the whole

1475
01:05:30.659 --> 01:05:30.900
thing.

1476
01:05:31.079 --> 01:05:33.000
Yeah, she's good.

1477
01:05:33.000 --> 01:05:33.599
Yeah, she's good.

1478
01:05:33.659 --> 01:05:37.260
And then they give them bullshit like drive, you know, the space

1479
01:05:37.260 --> 01:05:38.639
waves episode and things like that.

1480
01:05:38.699 --> 01:05:41.760
They pair up with the worst, Robert.

1481
01:05:41.820 --> 01:05:44.460
And that's the other person I didn't mention. giving a list of

1482
01:05:44.460 --> 01:05:47.699
people who are great on Voyager and Robert Picardo, who is also

1483
01:05:47.699 --> 01:05:49.079
just absolutely incredible.

1484
01:05:49.139 --> 01:05:49.679
Yeah.

1485
01:05:49.739 --> 01:05:53.699
Yeah, so maybe, but then you have got Garrett Wang and Robert

1486
01:05:53.699 --> 01:05:54.420
Beltran.

1487
01:05:54.480 --> 01:05:56.820
Although I think there's a Garrett Wang and Robert Beltran in

1488
01:05:56.820 --> 01:05:57.239
DS9.

1489
01:05:57.420 --> 01:05:58.800
No.

1490
01:05:58.860 --> 01:06:00.179
Or a worst Robert.

1491
01:06:00.780 --> 01:06:03.179
Oh, Robert, don't commit.

1492
01:06:03.239 --> 01:06:04.679
Yeah, so there's three, isn't it?

1493
01:06:04.739 --> 01:06:07.440
There's 3 and I think Ethan Philip has his off days.

1494
01:06:07.500 --> 01:06:11.460
Well, he's got a bit of a thankless character, which I think he

1495
01:06:11.460 --> 01:06:12.300
does a pretty good job.

1496
01:06:12.360 --> 01:06:16.320
Remember the world where he gets his own daytime television show.

1497
01:06:19.199 --> 01:06:21.599
I can't imagine anything worse.

1498
01:06:21.599 --> 01:06:22.199
That's early on.

1499
01:06:22.320 --> 01:06:27.719
That is the episode where Michael Jonas is exposed as contacted

1500
01:06:27.719 --> 01:06:28.320
Cisco.

1501
01:06:28.380 --> 01:06:29.219
Oh, see, there you go.

1502
01:06:29.219 --> 01:06:32.400
Because nearly he has to uncover it via his chat show.

1503
01:06:32.460 --> 01:06:32.699
Yeah.

1504
01:06:33.059 --> 01:06:36.960
See, that's awesome. should do that.

1505
01:06:37.019 --> 01:06:40.500
Oh my god, I love series 2 of Voyager.

1506
01:06:40.559 --> 01:06:42.360
Yeah, so much fun.

1507
01:06:42.420 --> 01:06:43.440
So much fun.