Hey, Joe. Hi.
So we're right at the end of Series 2 of Voyager.
This is the 2nd last episode before we go into basics part one. and
I remembered watching this episode originally, but what I was
surprised by watching it this time was how great I thought it
was.
I'm going to take a stab and say that and you know the scene, and
I'm not going to say what the scene is.
Voyager may have peaked in this episode and it's all downhill from
here.
With the occasional sort of, you know, memorable action romp.
I love this at the time.
I remember watching this at the time and, you know, we've talked
about series 2 of Voyager before.
How it's one of my favourites.
We've been going back and we've done a couple now, haven't we?
We done alliances.
Yeah, we've done this.
I can't remember what else we've done from two.
We have done another one as well. they've all been great.
State of Fox.
Oh, that was from one, wasn't it?
But yeah, early voyager. early boys, yeah.
There's so much potential here.
Yeah.
And we're just on the verge of exploiting it in this episode.
And then we don't.
And then we don't. no It's like I sent you in a message.
Watcher does like flirting with magnificence and then completely
ignoring it afterwards.
It's a huge disappointment.
And I think, like, we have done a number of romances on Star Trek
the Next Generation.
And frankly, all of the men in those were just absolute fucking
creeps.
So Ronan, Odan and Raal most recently seen being oiled up by
Deanna in the Price.
They're all awful.
Like, they're so creepy and they're so gross.
And like Jerry Taylor, who writes this, was involved in at least
some of those, wasn't she?
Oh, she's written a number of terrible tread romances.
But this gets it absolutely right.
And Chakotay is so charming and so perfect for this.
And the romance really lands until the point where they should
kiss and don't, and then there's a very weird scene where the
relationship is clearly over, but we don't know why, possibly
because it's the end of the episode.
And there's no consequences.
The sad truth is, you know, I fear that Chakotay may have peaked
in this episode as well.
Unfortunately, Robert Belshard is going to be in 5 more seasons of
Star Trek after this, giving a slightly relaxed performance.
Yeah, he's so gentle with her.
That's what I really liked.
And he wants her to come to the conclusion that they may not get
off the planet, but he won't force her, which is what those other
kids would have done in those other episodes.
Exactly.
He doesn't force her to do it.
He gently waits and he gently suggests we might be here for a long
time and makes life extremely comfortable for her whilst she comes
to that conclusion herself.
It's like I said to you.
This episode never once convinced me that Jane and Shikotay are
going to have a log cabin like Calamity Jane and Katie out of the
woods for the rest of their lives.
All the episode had to do was convince us that Shameway believe
that, so they could have that conversation at the end of the
episode, which is the really important moment.
Yeah, I thought I remember Chakotay being quite a compelling
character, which is why as we've done these Voyager episodes.
I'm going, well, it's my memory that I have full C.
What's going on?
No, it's for the 1st couple of years where he's got a bit of
edge.
That scene I said to you about where he punches the marquee man
down and says, oh, you want to do things the marquee way. fine.
Well, do it.
And here with the with how he treats Janeway in this episode.
This is the interesting Chakotay that I remember.
What a shame that they just didn't invest in his character after
this.
I think the other thing that's extraordinary is just what an
incredibly great performance Kate gives.
Like just she's doing something in every scene with every line
every reaction.
There are just some incredible moments.
She's not, like she's not the method, is she?
She's like a more sort of traditional actor who is letting you
know what the character feels in a sort of communicative way
rather than by imitating it.
And she does such a good job.
She's so, so tremendous.
I think a time point out bit.
Well, the bit the bit at the end, you like the bit at the end
where she's planting the seedlings and then he comes along and she
just throws her head back and laughs in the most relaxed.
I'm going to love my life here away.
Just as the com cystal comes in and goes, oh, it's Chevoc here, you
know, we're going to be in you up to the ship now, you know.
It's just perfect.
But, you know, can I do the line?
Because every time I think about this episode, only one line comes
to my head.
And that is, what's that?
building.
What could you be building?
And why can't you tell me?
Oh, she's great.
But just seeing her not literally with her hair down, but seeing
her relax throughout this episode.
That's the joy of it.
And it is like a, it's a very different performance to that sort
of stick up that butt that she does on the bridge.
And I know sort of in later seasons, she does learn to sort of be
a bit more gentle within her authority.
I think initially they wanted her to be, didn't they, very
masculine and hard-assed because for good sakes, we've got a woman
in command of the ship, you know, yeah, yeah.
We can't let her be too feminine.
You got those people, all those people in the suits at the back of
the set saying, you know, sort your ear out, love.
Come on. yeah But seeing her, this, ah, just that one with life.
Yes, just enjoy it.
And you're right, the way Mulgroup plays all of it is extremely
watchable.
Yeah, she's great.
She's absolutely superb.
And so there's also the B plot on board the ship.
And the funny thing about that is that it hits a couple of the
beats that the Galileo 7 hit last time where you have Tuvok having
to make command decisions.
And in one...
We said we did this a lot, didn't we?
Yeah, yeah.
So in one scene, the worst, Robert gets cross at him for not
caring about the fact that Janeway and Chakotay were being left
behind.
And there's also that little needling bit from Kes in a scene that
the 2 of them have together.
I like that scene, though, because he will listen to that.
Yeah.
I think it's a mistake because, you know, I think they've decided
that because Tuvok is a Vulcan, not half Vulcan like Spock, but
just a Vulcan.
So he is less emotional and doesn't have that emotional conflict
that Spock has.
But that's not really as interesting as where we end up landing
with the Vulcans, which is they have strong emotions and have
learned the importance of controlling them.
So it's not that Tuvok can't feel the loss of his friend, which is
almost what we get here.
It's that he does feel it and maybe more deeply than everyone else
on board the ship, but he's learned to control it because he has
to.
And that's a more interesting story than he's just a kind of robot
and he doesn't care as much as everyone else, which is what the
script does.
The other beat that it hits is Janeway accusing him in the final
scene of having an emotional reaction, which is exactly what Kirk
does with Spock at the end of Galileo 7.
I mean, a lot of that, where you just said there about him sort of
digging with all this under the surface, it's very subtle, and I
think you probably have to look for it a bit.
Yeah, I think that he's very good in this because of course he
is.
Yeah, he's given something to do.
He must have been absolutely delighted.
What annoyed me about that subplot was Harry Kim. who essentially
attempts to incite a rebellion on Voyager because he can't get his
own way because he won't leave Mother behind.
And again, I think that's part of the problem.
You know, people complain about the Roddenbury rule that we
shouldn't have regular characters in conflict with one another, and
they say that that doesn't make for drama, but this sort of
conflict between the characters doesn't make for drama either.
Well, no, we know Star Trek well enough.
We know the formula.
We know Jane Wen's going to be back at the end of the episode and
we know Harry Kim isn't going to be in the brig.
And that's a problem.
If you're playing out these scenes and you know the conclusion to
all of this.
But it's not just that.
It's just that those interactions where they're sort of being
grumpy and petulant and stuff aren't fun to watch.
And if they're people that we like and people who've laughed a lot
together and stuff and they're sad and they're trying to support
one another or they're trying to get on with their work and not
managing it or whatever, that's more interesting than just Bilanas
bitchy to that ensign for no reason.
And, you know, Harry's sucking his thumb and being insubordinate.
He always feels like his bottom lips just protruding just a little
bit, don't he, Harry Kim?
Like he's a bit sulky.
Yeah.
Can I give you a glimpse into what you might have seen had Kenneth
Biller had his way with this episode?
Oh, okay.
Okay, so we've got him quoting here on memory alpha.
I had a hand in resolutions in the sense that I wanted to do a
story about Janeway and Chakotay stranded on the planet.
But I wanted to do a more sci-fi twist on it.
I can see you rolling your eyes already where they get stranded
and Voyager literally left for a time eddy to get home.
When they come back, Chakotay and Jane might have aged 40 years
and have a family.
Oh, we've done that, haven't we?
Jerry Taylor felt it was too reminiscent of the inner light.
Oh, okay.
What about children of time?
No, we hadn't had that yet?
I don't think.
Oh okay.
Right.
Maybe around about this time, actually.
Yeah.
Voyager 2, DS 95. yeah.
I mean, that's an interesting idea.
Yeah, but not a very interesting one.
Well, no, because instead of ageing makeup.
Definitely.
And it would have been terrible.
The good thing is, is you love hang time, and this is essentially
the 2 of them just hanging out. waiting for Janeway to decide to
fuck him, you know?
Yeah, it's wonderful.
Do you want to hear what Robert Belcheron has to say about this?
Yeah, okay.
Of course you do.
So he has to say, it's a Star Trek romance, he says, which means
we touch hands and it's supposed to be thrilling.
I think he's a bit pissed, you know, that he doesn't get to, you
know, have it off with Kate Mulgrew.
Yeah.
Well, I'm a bit pissed that didn't happen because, I mean, it's a
romance.
All of the beats and there's a big hole at the end of it where
they don't kiss.
I mean, I think they do kiss.
We cut away from the scene.
No, no, no, no, but that's not how you do it.
Like we weren't going to see them kissing necessarily.
We weren't going to see them having sex, but we were at least
going to know that the writers and everyone concerned means us to
understand that that's what's happening.
But instead, we get the very definite kind of feeling that they go
oh, shit, this is the romance. don't think we want to deal with
this properly.
Let's not have that scene after all.
So frustrating.
It's really bad.
So he was initially quite critical of this, but later on, sort of
years later, he said it pushed the emotional boundaries of what
the show could do.
I think it turned out to be a very good story.
He doesn't think that it cements the relationship in a romantic
way.
He just thinks it's a very strong friendship that's solidified
here.
I don't think that's what they're doing.
No.
And we've complained, remember, that we then go on to have a
couple of season finales where Chakoto just says fuck you and is
massively insubordinate and doesn't kind of give a shit.
And even after that line in Scorpion, You know, where she says to
him, 3 years ago, I didn't even know your name and now I can't
imagine a day without you.
You know, like that.
Like, that was so sort of fantastic and spectacular and such a, and
just, you know, just another brilliant mulgrew delivered line.
But it would carry even more weight, you know, they were having a
romantic relationship.
And why can't we do that?
Like, why?
can't they do that?
They won't let Picard have one.
They won't, again, DFI's the outlier.
Cisco is the only one who's allowed to have a long-term
relationship, a mature one.
And other characters have relationships that last and stuff like
that.
Like they do it.
No, instead we give Janeway Fairhaven, don't we?
And the opportunity to personalise her own dildo.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. and delete his wife.
Delete the wife.
Yeah. like that scene.
Jerry Taylor says, you know, this show is going to make a lot of
people happy.
At least according to the mail, I get, because basically it traps
Commander Shakotay and Captain Jane, we're together on a desert
island planet.
So the portion of the audience were gagging for this.
Yeah.
That's another reason to keep it going.
I think it works as an episode because it does that sort of
stuff.
It gives Kate the chance to act.
It's sort of solid.
She imbues some of the cheesy dialogue with some real kind of
warmth.
It's it's terrific.
She's so happy doing it.
The scenes where she has to have one-sided dialogue scenes with
the monkey.
I mean, I said, oh, you are game, Kate, you are game.
I like the monkey as well.
Before we go in, can I give the last word to Kate Mulgrew
herself?
Yes. about this episode because we all want to know what she's got
to say about this romance.
The audience is very faithful to these ideas and concepts.
My God, you just know when I'm reading out something by K-Mol grew
don't you?
Yeah, she's smart isn't she?
She's so clever.
If they see a match taking place or revolving and they see it
actually enhanced via a wonderful episode like resolutions, then I
think they're quite disconcerted when it's just left.
And I am equally so.
Yeah, she's she's pretty appalled that they didn't follow this
up.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I think it's a it's a shame.
However, I don't think our lingering impression that this episode
should be that it's a failure.
The episode is a success, isn't it?
But it's just where they went next that doesn't work.
I think so.
I think they just kind of bottle out at the end in a sort of
really weird and upsettingly disappointing way.
I'm only emphasising that because we've done a handful of wager
episodes recently where we've been really mean.
No, I enjoyed this a great deal.
I watched it twice in preparation.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You said that to me in one episode and I've taken it on as like a
life goal now.
It's nice to be nice.
Well, let's do it, should we?
I think we should.
I will count us in.
Five, four, three, two, one.
And we're off.
And I believe we're outside.
Yeah, so...
No, some of this stuff is outside and some of it's indoors, but
the indoor outside sets are pretty good.
And there is some talk on memory alpha of them doing a night shoot
as well.
Oh, okay.
Well, let's keep an eye out for that.
Well, the best thing about the the inside forests that they do is
there's a lot of overhang.
So we can't see the backgrounds of any of the sets.
Yeah, yeah, we don't see the sky and stuff.
But I think that's that's really good.
And I do like this sort of big vista as well that we get to see.
Like that's pretty awesome.
So what's occurred here is Janeway and Chakotay have been stung by
a pair of insects that for some reason means they can no longer
travel through space.
Is that right?
It means they can't leave this environment.
They can't leave this planet.
Is there any, and now, is there... analogous to anything on this
planet?
I don't care.
Like whatever.
It's they're staying here for space reasons.
It's pretty thin.
And there's clearly a medical cure for it available.
So the doctor, do you know what I mean?
Like, whatever, I don't know.
So they've effectively could have just said sort of ideas now.
Oh, you got the cure for this.
Yeah, great. quick, come up again.
You know, like, we're not leaving without you.
But then we would have no fun at all.
No.
And like, there's a good reason not to, uh, not to kind of consult
the Videans.
And I think that's another thing that's well done here because we
refer, so there are 5 episodes with Vedians.
This is the last time they're in it, and we actually talk about
those interactions with the Videans, and in the conversation with
Harry and the doctor, we refer to a bunch of them.
We get a character from a previous for DN episode back.
Consequences.
Yeah, consequences and continuity.
Exactly.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And we talked before about how in a way it doesn't make any
sense.
Like how are they going home and still continuing to encounter
these people.
But I think it's more important that it seems to take place, you
know, that things happen to a group of people and we remember them
and they do as well.
Well, the good thing about the Videans as well is a genuinely good
idea.
They're sort of goouish to look at.
The 1st couple of episodes are where Brandan Bragger said that he
wanted to do like the X-Files in space with Star Trek Voyager.
And I think that might be the closest he got, you know, when he
did the Hannibal Lecter face of Dirst, being put over the Vidian
face or Neelix losing his lungs and things like that.
It was for all, it's ridiculous, but it's kind of horrible as well
you know?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. nasty B movie sort of crazy sort of way.
Yeah, they're like sort of weird Frankenstein's monsters sort of
thing that sort of construct themselves.
And they're a bit like the Borg only creepy organic zombie Borg
you know.
You know, and it all leads up to deadlock where you have them
storm onto Voyager.
Yeah, shooting everyone down and going, right, we're going to take
his lungs, you know, it's all, it's, that's really great stuff.
So of course you don't want to leave them behind.
Yeah, yeah.
If it's a good idea.
But we stop all of this.
I mean, I think I think you could pretty much this and basics.
This is where it all stops.
Yeah.
Having aliens that we keep coming back to, having characters that
have relationships and progress.
We, we flirt a bit with Jane Wayne 7 and that, that becomes a
massive focus.
But I think that becomes the excuse then.
Like that works really well.
We haven't got a bother with the others, you know?
Yeah.
I mean, you know, Deep Space 9 is on the other end with sort of a
massive semi-regular cast and stuff and this is gesturing at
that.
I mean, we've got Hogan in this episode and we have another crew
member who's in 2 vics and in this episode.
So, you know, there's that sort of little bit of continuity.
But see this, I think, so this is the B plot here.
So the A plot gets introduced before the, um, you know, and we're
on the, we're on the planet, listening to the doctor.
I mean, we do go up to the thing, he's not just a voice in that
scene.
We get to see him on the ship.
Now we're on the ship and we're seeing how everyone's reacting.
Neelix is lying is the worst.
I'm going to tell you now, people, morale will suffer, not having
the captain and 1st officer on.
Fuck me.
No shit, Sherlock.
But what's really weird is Kiss says the doctor has been doing
some drastic research. drastic research.
You remember that conversation we had about the slimers and
equinox?
He's been torturing those bugs, I tell you.
Getting very drastic.
I love 90s trek dialogue.
I really do.
I was just like, oh, wait, just giving Neelix a lion.
They've just thrown in this very obvious line.
Well, yeah. there is a little bit of that.
We do we do get some of that.
I mean, we've already had some of that between Janeway and
Chakotay where Chakotay explains to Janeway what she must surely
know about the Videans.
Like, it's... all the time they do that.
We talked about that before.
And so here is Mr. Boma, this week's Mr. Boma played by the worst
Robert, um, complaining that the Vulcan doesn't have any feelings
or emotions, uh, just like in Galileo 7.
You know, you said Bobo, then you know exactly where my mind was.
You've got a bit excited.
I'm like, why is he like one of those aliens from series 4?
Oh, Harry.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
The true douchebag of the Star Trek, yeah.
And again, you know, like he could be feeling bereft rather than
just pissy about it.
Like if he was if we were being really properly interesting, um
you know, he could almost write him off.
And then you get an episode like Timeless and you're like, oh
dear.
So we just haven't been bothering with him then. that's right.
Oh, the killing game.
Why does you've said this to me?
Why does all this equipment look so lightweight?
It looks like it doesn't weigh anything, does it?
Yeah, yeah.
Well, they had to transport it in trucks out to the location
plastic.
Oh, now this is something that Jerry Taylor does brilliantly with
Janeway.
A love of science.
Yeah, yeah, I love that.
And how Kate Mulgrew plays it because whenever she's an interview
she always talks about loving the fact that she was playing a
passionate scientist.
She really delivers that to the screen.
But look at her.
And look how they're already bonding in this really nice way.
And in a way, the crude, like when Tuvok like contacts them, that's
kind of interrupting and spoiling their fun slightly.
Well, they do it again at the end of the episode.
Well, yeah, yeah, very much at the end.
You know, very dramatic way.
They were about to go, are they off again?
Well, I'd have been tempted to just go, let's just pretend we
didn't hear that.
Yeah, just one more time.
Sorry.
Nathan, I can't hear you.
Oh, at least maybe you should call me Catherine.
Then his reaction.
Like, he's, he's so charming.
He's like the perfect man in this.
See, this scene is not fun to watch.
Like, why is she being horrible?
Why can't she have some sympathy about poor old Lieutenant Swinn
or whatever her name is?
You know, like, this is mean, like, that's not fun.
That's not interesting.
They do this a lot, you know.
I remember a couple of scenes in DS9 where, you know, something
the one where Kira finds out about a mother and Dukat, and she
goes straight to Ops and takes it out on a couple of people
gossiping, you know?
you know?
Yeah.
But I just don't think that's fun, you know, like if they're hurt
if they're feeling bad, show us that. you know, like why are they
just being pretty?
some empathy.
You are in an authoritative role on this ship.
And there's supposed to be, we're about to get a speed, aren't
we?
Are we about to get a speech where the thing I remember most is
from that.
The thing the thing I remember most is the bitching at one another
you know, like, I really love as well as that scene is taking
place, the camera pulls up.
It's a really lovely moment of direction.
It's Alexander Singer that directs this.
And if you look at the episodes he does, There's some other better
looking ones.
It's also sort of a bit subtle.
I noticed the be, we'll talk about it when we get there, but he
he's careful at, you know, deciding who is in frame at any one
sort of particular point.
But that thing where we have the 2 of them looking up into the air
and delivering that speech is wonderful.
Look at this dress.
Janeway is wearing a lovely dress.
And she's put watch her hair throughout the episode.
It gets more and more relaxed.
So now she's got her hair sort of down but tied up in a plait.
I love that look.
That's my favourite beer for JJ.
And even Jakotay's not wearing stupid space clothes.
He's just got like a...
A waistcoat.
His is a little bit more stupid space clothes, but she's wearing
something that's really mid-20th century, isn't it?
It's beautiful.
Why can't you tell me?
Do you know when she leaves into him laughing?
Yes, and that's when we get to Dr. Janeway and her reaction.
She should be like, will you fuck off?
We're having a moment.
Look at that.
How are you faring?
And she looks him into the, like she looks right into his eyes and
says we're doing quite well.
Like, it's really good.
Without the dialogue.
It looks like they're about to kiss there.
It's really interesting.
Like there's possibilities already opening.
But look how beautifully she's lit.
Look at him in the background looking at her dozing on her and not
saying anything.
He's so into her, isn't he?
Yeah, yeah.
But from from caretaker.
I've been seeing that look.
And then we're up on this ship with these boring assholes.
Let's get back. that's right.
Back down to the planet, please.
We want to get back to the fucking, come on.
Who cares about these people?
Although I wouldn't mind looking at Hogan a bit because he's got
beautiful eyes, but just seeing.
Ah, okay.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Wait until you see them.
Shockingly blue.
What is it?
They're drastically blue.
Drastic. drastic research.
Look at her.
Look at it.
There we go.
The camera's slowly going up.
And I think we're still on location here.
So I think act one is location and then act 2 is studio.
Oh, no, hang on. hang on.
Is that a location?
No, that's a studio.
Yeah, maybe you're right.
Yeah, yeah, the rock.
That's a polystone rock.
But she, like, you just watch her face all the time.
Look at her in the bath.
It's wonderful, isn't it?
I just wish that she hadn't referenced the bath in her personal
log.
Like, it's a little bit too obvious.
We do always come back to this bath because, you know, do you
never remember the scene earlier in the season, which is in the
bath and then Q zap's in there with her?
Okay.
But look, look at this.
I love her just talking to him while she's naked in the bath.
Using her hands and a very...
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So expressive.
Ma, we've got such a hard on for Kate Mulgrew, don't we?
Wonderful.
This?
Oh, and look, we just nearly got we got a little bit of upper tint
there.
Oh, but I think it's more seductive the way she sort of pulls her
leg out at the beginning of the thing.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
But so she's in a towel in this scene and they're having the scene
together and they're doing really well.
She's calling for him.
Do you know what, you know, and then she's immediately...
But you watch...
You you watch.
There's a moment where she realises that she's in a towel and
she's talking to Chakotay and it's not in the dialogue or anything
but there's a little reaction where she goes, oh shit, I'm here in
a towel in this scene with Chakotay.
It's really interesting.
Because she constantly tells a story in conventions about this
episode and about, she goes, I'm sorry, rabbits, but there was a
monkey on the planet. far more obsessed with than your body.
But you watch her, you watch her.
You watch it.
It's coming, it's coming.
No, she sort of clutched the tail then.
A bit embarrassed.
No, no, no.
She's, I don't think she's, he's given her a good look.
Look at that.
Look.
Then she sort of goes, oh my god, I'm wearing a towel.
It's me.
Yes, and then and then look at her reaction.
But you know, it's so interesting is that, yeah, interesting in a
way this show normally isn't as well. is that he never would have
gone out there unless she was in danger.
He is the perfect gentleman.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
And they were just having that chat.
It was really delightful.
Like, they would, he was in the way they were doing his painting.
He was never going to say to her, I'm really happy being here with
you.
And, you know, I want a romance with you.
He waits for her to come out of her bed and go, we've got to
address this.
He never, ever forces himself on her if you will forgive the
expression.
In fact, this is as close as it gets because if the subtext is
making a life for ourselves is having a relationship.
But maybe it's not because, but there is something like he does
say twice, I think, you need to start thinking about the
possibility that this might not end.
Um, Yeah, I think about the possibility.
Oh, come on, Catherine.
You know, like, let's just, we're going to be stuck in forever.
That's right.
Well, I remember both Odan and Raal and all of those people...
You're coming with me.
Yeah, that's right.
Can they quit their jobs now?
Would that be all right?
You know, like, look how beautiful she is in that shot.
I think he looks very pretty in this.
I do too.
And you see, that's the other thing too.
And I think the thing with Chakotay, the thing that Chakotay
promised was that we would have a quiet, more thoughtful, like
you've had Riker.
Do you know what I mean?
Like he's the bloke.
He's an all-American guy.
Well, then we had Kira, so we went in the other direction.
Yeah, and now we have a man who's a little bit more quiet, who
works as a romantic lead because he's in touch with his feelings
and he's wise.
And some of it's a sort of cheesy and slightly embarrassing Native
American thing.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Trouble is, is he's quiet later on is because I don't give him
anything to do.
No that's right. because she's being subtle and thoughtful and
gentle.
Just because he doesn't have any lines.
We cheered in one episode, we did.
We cheered when he got a line.
I went, oh, wow.
Robert Belcher.
But it meant the same thing with Tuvark.
I mean, he's really, really good.
And you see, the other beat that the other Galileo 7 beat that we
hit here is once Suvok decides that he's going to do what they
want.
He's absolutely all in.
And the 1st thing he says is this is my decision and none of you
are going to get in trouble for it.
And I think all of that stuff.
You know, the way that Spock puts himself in danger by going out
to bury what's his face.
You know, it's the same thing.
We're doing it again.
It's exactly the same sort of thinking.
Yeah, do you remember when he went down on the planet in prime
factors to steal the technology against the prime director?
Because Janeway, he didn't want her to have to do it.
Yeah.
You know.
He is very much accountable for his own actions.
Yeah.
But yes, you're right.
Harry just can't do anger.
And like, why can't he be upset?
Why can't they make him be upset?
He's a kid.
You know, he looked up to Janeway.
There was a real kind of, you know, like his mum is not there.
Like all of that stuff is there and could potentially be
interesting.
They set up interesting relationships.
Very telling, you know, that when we finally catch up with Harry
Kim's mother in series four.
Um, and she goes, why aren't you?
why are you still an ensign?
Right. get Captain Janeway on the phone.
I'm going to talk to her now.
And you're like, when we all knew it. you know, we knew you had a
daughter hearing, mother.
No wonder he, you know, was so under Jayway's for all.
This is tantamount to mutiny, you know.
Yeah, no, it is literally weird. watching Equinox all over again.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
And I don't know.
I mean, look at home as always.
Sorry to disrupt you, but okay, he's not.
Okay, because this is a boring scene.
Yeah, yeah.
Is he a beta Zed?
It's all that sort of... lens that they gave to Marina Service.
I think I think it is just his eyes.
On a complete side note, you know, I will be meeting Marina Circus
next month at LLC.
Oh, really?
That's right.
I'm going to ask her to do a welcome to Untitled Star Trek intro
for us.
Oh, brilliant.
Do that.
She'll be going.
I'm glad that Neelix Neelix has brought vegetables to the table
for this conspiracy scene.
It's getting really into it too.
His 2 character piece is one Easter morale offside, he's had a
line about that too.
He's the cook.
He's got 2 vegetables in his hands.
There you go.
He was giving it some proper Ethan Phillips kind of excitement
sitcom acting there though.
I would have had more respect for Harry Kim.
If he'd have broken down here and said, I just can't imagine this
voyage without...
Oh, it would have been much more interesting.
So much more interesting.
Oh, I do like how tube up set is lit.
It's bedroom.
Yeah.
And very dark with that purple light.
Yeah.
They use that extremely well meld, you know, where you're sitting
there in the dark.
Try not to be a serial killer.
Oh, okay.
Now that's when he does some serious acting.
Wait till we get to that one.
So this, I mean, this is them talking about the recent events of
series 2, you know, like, and...
And it works, you know, like they do have these bargaining chips.
We had the, what's that episode called?
B'lana Split.
Faces?
Like we had that and we mentioned that here, you know, um, uh, and
we, I can't remember what the other thing is, uh, but we have some
hold on the Videans.
Oh, you know.
She's the 1st one, I think.
Yeah, that's their 1st episode, isn't it?
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But I think, you know, you would be hard pressed to find a single
episode in series 3 that refers to a previous episode in series
three.
They just went standalone.
They just went moving the other week.
And you know what?
It's hitting me, someone from work, some of them don't, but it's
has none of the substance of this.
But you can already see the right setting in here, can't you?
Where they have a really good romance subplot that's working very
well and they sabotage it because they don't want to have any big
consequences.
And there's always this question with Voyager.
Do you want them to do the big thing knowing that they're going to
walk it back and it's not going to mean anything at the end of the
episode?
Yes, because at least we've got something. at least we get.
Yes, exactly right.
Or do we just do boring things that aren't going to have any
effect on any characters so we can just wandering potentially for
the entire years?
We have nothing to talk about at all.
Those moments where there's glimmers of hope, we can cling on to
them.
Yeah.
Yeah, boring.
Let's get back to the planet.
Come on.
Yeah, let's get this boring, boring B plot.
So he's doing headboards for their beds.
Oh man.
You know, it does remind me of my mark a bit, you know.
It's all sort of suggest things that irritate me about the house.
And then you'll find over the next couple of days they've been
magically fixed. yeah.
Yeah, wow.
That's what you know, you've got...
Look, he's noticed.
Oh my god.
He's and look at her dress.
He's looking more and more like Miss Katie from Calamity Jamie in
every single scene.
That's a beautiful dress.
I just love that they don't give her space clothes.
Yeah, do you know what?
Obviously, she has to wear a Starfleet uniform.
It is a very masculine uniform, isn't it?
It's a body suit, effectively.
Well, it's not, though, because it you get to see the shape of her
body.
You know, she's not like wearing herself.
She looks so much more beautiful in a dress.
I don't want to be sexist, but she does.
No, no, the dress is beautiful.
Like she, I just think it's such a great choice.
They could have, you know, made her wear a Spangly Leotard, like
like Beverly and Deanna in the price.
And it's nice to see now that Chakotay is just wearing a sort of
array of shirts where he can have the button open so low that all
of his chest is showing.
Yeah, yeah.
Look.
I'm all man, Janeway.
Yeah, I'm not sure about that belt, though.
It does accentuate his time, Melissa, doesn't it?
And he doesn't have that much of a time.
I mean, he's such a, he's a beefy, isn't he?
The definition of beef, I would say.
Oh, dear, this is very studio set this.
Oh, it's all right.
No, no, no, but we can't see the backdrop.
So I'm all right with it.
Oh, no.
Actually, this is the one bit of direction I thought was very lame
when you get the, well, the sky back will drop you've got on the
Zoom call right now.
Emerging through the studio trees, you know?
That's very Star Trek.
And she has to, I mean, it would be a struggle for any actor to
talk to a monkey and go, what's happening to the sky?
You know, like, that's not happening. we already there?
Oh, I thought that was this beer.
Yeah, the monkey comes along that.
The monkey comes along while she's checking out the storm.
Yeah.
But it's just, it's just that that's the point at which she says
uh, oh yeah, we're about halfway through.
I do like this though as well.
She's still seeking out new lives and new civilisations, even on
this planet.
Oh my god, the funniest story was Michael Pillar is like, no, we're
not having a monkey in star.
That's nowhere near exotic enough.
And then someone on the production crew showed him a picture of
this and he went, oh, it works for me. book it.
That's why instead of having someone in a suit, which might have
been the alternative, and we saw how that worked in the Galileo
7.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Or the Gumato.
No, I mean, I think that's perfect.
That's cute, having an actual apple.
Can you imagine if you're a bit of man in a monkey suit?
No, you couldn't have done it.
If you're suggesting I get out of here.
I agree.
I mean this is hard stuff to deliver to yourself.
But watch how now this is literally like a Mills and Boone book
now.
He comes through going, Catherine, through the storm.
Oh, yeah.
That's right.
It's like some dreadful old woman reading a book, you know, getting
all excited about the man coming to save the woman.
But I mean, I love this.
I mean, this, like, I like a romance, even a heterosexual romance
and this, I think, is working as a romance properly.
Like he's got his arm around her, like he really is kind of the
perfect man, I think.
He's not pushing it.
The astonishing thing is, you said his works as a romance, right?
Yeah.
What are the 2 reasons that romance in Star Trek usually don't
work?
The writing and the performance. and they're both right and
they're getting both right here.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
I think so.
But also, like the writing in the sense of the men are always just
fucking horrible.
And we haven't had one of the romances in Star Trek, the Next
Generation, where it's a male regular with a female guest star.
It's always been the other way around.
Do you remember when they tried it with Cisco?
Just for a 2nd where Gastier says, she's thinking of moving on the
station and he goes, oh, it's a big step.
And she goes, oh, what's that supposed to mean?
She goes, she goes, you're afraid of commitment, you are.
She totally calls him out straight away.
And then they put pay to that very quickly.
So can we talk about how kind of shit this scene is?
But she comes into the door.
She comes in and says, oh, hi, Tuvok.
I just wanted to talk to you about my father.
You go, really?
I'm running the ship, woman.
Come on.
That's it.
Why are we having a conversation about your father?
Why don't you wait for one of those subtets?
When I'm in Neelix's restaurant playing my game, that would be the
perfect one.
Calto.
But I like the fact that they have an established, almost like a
parental child relationship.
And she is kind of exploiting that to get her point across.
Not in any sort of insidious way, but like, She's like, you know
you need to understand, this is the effect it's having on people.
I'm not sure we'll be able to come back from this.
But, I mean, I'm just never convinced by any of this, and I think
it's partly that Tuvok doesn't sell his position very strongly, you
know, like, and they're all going, oh, we're we human beings with
real feelings and stuff and...
It just feels like he's sticking his heels in.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Like, and look, they've shoved Neelix to the front in case there's
any trouble.
Why is he covering his stomach?
Like that.
Why is he standing like that?
I'm not sure what my tailor's done this week, but I'm going to
hold my hands here.
Oh dear, oh dear.
How many people are on the bridge?
Let's have a look.
Yeah, there's quite a few extras in some of these scenes.
There are a lot of people...
Black lady there in the middle.
She's in quite a few Voyager episodes.
I seem to remember her face propping up in a lot of gorgeous.
Yeah.
So I think they were sort of cool.
I mean it was a good idea.
Call on the same act as one given work too.
It's supposed to be the same people on the ship.
Yeah, yeah.
There's an Asian woman right at the back of the set.
I'm not sure what she's doing.
Did you see her there?
She was sort of leaning against the console.
Well, she might have some buttons to press back there.
She's pressing them now.
Well done.
And now that they're now that they're actually doing the action
now that this part of the plot, which I thought didn't really
quite work is over, then I think that the scenes on the ship are
actually pretty good.
Don't you?
Like, I think that they managed to do a bit of Voyager action and
stuff in a sort of...
Yeah, I think she was... as a very competent captain in those
bits.
In fact, I was getting Saru vibes from him.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Oh, Janeway's appalled.
All of her scientific equipment's being smashed.
We had to get to a position where she couldn't experiment anymore
though, didn't we?
Yeah.
But he was holding her.
Do you know what I mean?
without being a creep again.
They were together under the table and it, you know, trying to
write out the storm together and he had his arms around her, but
in an absolutely non-greepy way.
You should notice that camera sweep over the cabin there and then
fall round to the door.
I know I point these things out in on these strokes when this
direction is a bit more interesting.
Oh I love this.
Oh, she's so sad.
She's really sad, isn't she?
None of it's salvageable.
And she sort of breaks her voice a little bit.
Yes, I know, it's wonderful.
Which is normally sort of so steadfast, I'm sure.
But look at this.
Look.
And look, just a moment.
There's a little moment where her forehead crinkles and there's
sort of there's sadness there.
Like she's not being bitchy.
She's being. do you know what I mean?
It's not like, oh, I guess that's one way of not, do you know what
I mean?
It's like, she's really properly saying.
She thinks she's so good as we are exploring Voyager. on Star Trek
Project.
She is the best thing about this show.
I think Jerry Ryan's a 2nd and she's quite close.
Ryan's very good.
But I think Mulgrew's there for the 7 years and, you know, despite
some very inconsistent writing.
I mean, we did Xbox a couple of weeks ago where she didn't know
what she was doing.
She still managed to deliver it though.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, she's fabulously interesting to watch.
She's really good.
To show that she's a woman, she's got sort of all the scabby
makeup on.
But she's got a little bit of hair at the back.
A touch of femininity about her.
No, she's a she's a hot Videan.
Oh, is she?
Yeah, yeah.
That's as hard as I care.
I'll do pretty well there, then, wouldn't I?
That's it.
We'd have our pick of the man.
No, they'll be, oh, there's up for our hearts and minds.
Oh, this was a day.
That's it right.
So she's getting in now.
She getting her hands doing it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right.
She's got to see her being physical because in a minute she needs
a massage.
And the other thing which I think is like super hilarious is that
what is it?
Chakotay's parents made him build a log cabin because they thought
that he should learn how to do log cabins.
And her parents said that she should do gardening because they
thought she should be able to do gardening.
And you kind of go, whose parents behave like that?
What's happening?
But the line where she says I was always a child of the 24th
century.
I love the camping trip.
His background is nature, isn't it?
So that contrast is lovely.
But look at his reaction.
Look at his reaction.
And look at her.
She's stricken.
Like when he says, this is the 1st time you've said anything
positive about living here.
And the look on her face where she goes, oh my god, have I been
like that?
Do you know what I mean?
Like it's, it's not in the script. so thoughtful.
She's it's pretty...
From this point on, she just behaves as if they are going to stay
here.
So she's relaxed into the environment.
Yeah, yeah.
And she's not sold on the relationship either.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, like...
I love it. wishing that happens.
Slumped over the desk going, oh, my nuts have gotten nuts.
And she's laughing, though?
Like she's laughing at herself.
You know, it does show you, actually, how this can work, because
do you remember when we saw this previously in Looking for Pamak
and all the wrong praises when...
Look at her look.
O'Brien was giving Kira a massage.
Do remember that?
Yeah, yeah, yeah And we went and we just went, ooh, ooh.
Where was this time?
It's working.
It works as a sexy massage.
Have you ever had that moment in your life, you know?
I did my one of my friend's husbands gave me a massage.
This is going back 15 years or so now.
And we had a moment and we never spoke about it ever.
He was massaging me.
I was really enjoying it.
He paused and then that was that.
I was like, okay, yeah, the stuff.
Look at how he grabs her hair and just moves it out of the way. in
that tender way and her reaction to it as well.
I think that's beautiful.
As far as 90s, Trek goes, this is sex. basically.
No, because I don't think they have sex yet.
I think there's a very clear point in the episode where they're
supposed to have sex.
I think that this is Chakotay, his one faux pas in this
relationship.
What about his mother?
Talking about his mother while he's massaging it. just like, please
you know, where did that end up?
I know, I know.
But look at that. loving it, look.
Yeah, yeah.
But look at her like she realises as well.
I actually really like when how she says, like the, I've got to go
to bed.
Like in the awkwardness of this, and then I'm going to bed now, and
then she pulls the sort of face.
Do you know what I mean?
She pulled that sort of slight funny face because this is really
awkward and I'm acknowledging it as well.
Like, she's thinking and the smile, the little grateful smile.
It's really good.
And it could be icky and it could be awkward. to watch, but it's
not because they're they're so awkwardness as well.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean, he refuses to make it awkward and she refuses to make it
awkward.
They both like, okay, we've had a moment.
I'm not going to be it.
It's going to be okay.
Yeah.
It's really good.
She's really properly thinking about how to perform this.
It's tremendous.
I love as well. like we don't cut to the morning.
She's clearly sat there in bed for maybe 10, 15 minutes and then
she gets up whilst he's still working on the same thing and says
look, we've got to talk about this.
Yeah, yeah.
Or sorry, we've got to define some parameters. to our relationship
look at that.
He looks over, she's in a semi-transparent cubicle. in the bed
bizarrely.
Then we can't back to the ship.
It really is.
The scene coming up.
It really is one of those things that sort of transcends the show
that it's from.
Because it's so atypical for the show. in that it's incredibly
good.
Very unusual for Voyager.
Oh, no, but here we are back on the bridge talking about
coordinates and things.
So, you know, but they...
The good thing about this, I think, is that Tuvok was right, you
know, and even there's that thing, let's spend the next so many
hours doing battle drills before they arrive.
Yeah, she comes back out and says, we've got to talk about this.
What are we going to do?
I'm not sure that nice, he's very flattering on her there.
No, and it's not as nice.
Very buttoned up, isn't it?
What sort of things they wear in the handmaid's tail.
It's funny that he's very sort of calculated and parameters and
she's a scientist.
We're going to define some parameters and he says, no, I'm going
to tell you a story.
And the story, like, I love the story.
She does deem to look very interested in the story.
But the great thing is, this is this is like a cheesy beat.
And of course, in retrospect, knowing that he's not in any way
Native American and no one involved is pretty much makes it a bit
awful.
But the way that he characterises himself, like the thing where he
says, I found peace by putting you 1st, by making my centring my
world around you and doing everything I can to support you.
And that's as sexy as hell.
He's absolutely the same, isn't he?
That I would rather be here than on that ship.
Either way, but he is also saying that you are someone who has
been so important to me and I've looked, and this, the woman
warrior was brave and beautiful and she was wise, but we're not
looking at Chakotay telling the story to Jane.
We're looking at her.
And so when he's talking about himself, Singer puts the camera on
Chakotay and when he's talking about her.
And you know, because...
Because Beltran knows it's a load of bullshit, he's saying, just
to express his feelings.
He actually can deliver it with some honesty.
The other thing, which I think is great though, is look at her
reaction.
Look at her.
She knows Star Trek does subtext so badly.
And she just laughs and smiles and is so stunningly beautiful in
that moment.
That's not really a story, is it?
That's not really an ancient legend, and she's so delighted.
It's beautiful and they have sex.
That's such a great line.
But that's the best we can do because this is Star Trek.
We just have them holding hands.
I don't know, though.
Sometimes I think implication is sexier than actually seeing it
sometimes.
No, but it's not even implied.
I think this is the cat being cowardly.
I don't think they're implying it just by holding hands.
And then they're relaxed.
They needed to do a proper job of that.
And that's...
Coming out of the mouth was far more sexy than how do I see that?
Oh, that's such a great moment.
I remember watching that for the 1st time and like sitting up in
my chair.
I teared up watching it even today.
You got to remember I knew it was coming.
I didn't have the rest of Voyager.
I didn't know where this show was going.
I thought they were going to have a romance between the captain
and the 1st officer because that's what this episode's employing.
Yeah.
So I was really...
That would have been great.
Yeah.
Yeah, well, we had Michael and and book in Discovery.
I mean, he, you know, oh, here we go.
What's her name?
And then, you know what?
there, been a lot of imagining if we did that that we've covered.
Yeah, yeah.
Star Trek project.
Oh here we go.
We need to have our standard sort of battle scene here.
But again, I think what makes the battle scene work really well is
Tuvok saying what we're going to do, and it's partly because we, we
sort of do see it, but it just makes him seem supremely competent
at this.
And I guess he's a tactical officer and that kind of works as
well.
But also, it means that Janeway was right to tell them not to
contact the Vadeans and Jeeva was right to because it was always
going to end up in conflict. exactly right Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Schmalis.
Yeah, that's the her uncle, remember?
Or something that she gives him that name in life signs or
something?
We're going to have one more scene.
Of this beautiful relationship between Janeway and Shakotay.
So please let's enjoy the moment because I don't think we're ever
going to have it again on this podcast.
No, no.
Let's celebrate the day.
And also, like, I was actually relieved that there wasn't some
bullshit reason why he wasn't going to do that, where he's going
to say, no, we can't possibly lower the shields, and it's just
like, no, that's why you came here for, for fuck's sake, lower the
shields.
And it's not.
He's super sensible.
He, you know, he gives a big speech about what's going to happen
and there's a lot of moving parts to it and all of that.
I think it's really good.
Do you remember I said to you earlier about Chakotay being like my
mark?
Now, this sounds like him.
Right.
Here is the series of events that will occur.
Some men just think that way, don't they?
Very linear, very consecutive.
Oh, we got an eye, sir, from Harry, which was a sincere eye, sir
rather than his pissy petular dice, sir, from before.
This is why he's still an ensign in series 7, you know.
Yeah, yeah, that's right.
God knows why uh, on Paris keeps getting promoted and demoted.
He knows what that keeps the worst of it.
Yeah, I can say.
But this is, like you said, this is great because we've
established a relationship with the Vidians.
It means that this climax of them getting the medicine.
It's not light. conclusions are usually pretty lame, you know?
Yeah, yeah, I think it works really well.
I think it works.
Set a course for the planet.
Warp four.
Whoop six.
Come on.
Jerry Taylor is scriptwriting this.
Why isn't she seeing how much this is working?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean, I'll say one thing for Jerry Tango.
She knows how to write Janeway brilliantly.
Like, she devised the character pretty much, I think, about 80% of
the character.
So she knows J.W. inside out back to front.
The science thing, I think, is a genius thing.
By this point, she knows how to write mole group because she's
been playing the role for 2 years.
Yeah.
I mean, Jangway is now spread equal on the floor.
She's clearly had some fun.
But, but no, because they're not as physically easy with one
another as you would normally want them to be in a scene if you
wanted to establish that they had sex.
And I think that they're pulling back from it.
Well, they're trying to make maybe have their cake and eat it.
So those that want it, say yes, those that don't.
No, that's right.
But I think that they really needed to properly do it.
And that makes this that makes this much more heartbreaking
because all of the, like anything interesting about this, they
throw out the window.
If she has given away this relationship with this beautiful
considerate man, you know, who worships the ground she walks on
and is making her happy and relaxed.
Do you know what I mean?
There's a little bit of it, but, and, and it, but, it breaks down
because the show is back and they just now have to be their jobs
again.
But we don't even do that.
We don't do any of that.
I'd rather watch another 5 seasons of this or down on the planet.
Yeah, kind of would.
The bathtub, we couldn't fit the bathtub on the boat.
Look at them.
Do you hear that?
Oh no.
And then watch their body language.
Pretend we're out.
Yeah.
So what's that?
No, they're on the next planet along.
Go and check that one out.
Oh, and they they are sort of giving each other looks in this
scene as well.
Yeah, that's it.
She's going to look up at him in a minute, isn't she?
Yes, look at her.
And look at that reaction.
We can't match it.
We can't like that smile, this shot where she's looking at the
tomato she was just planting, and then look how bereft she looks.
Like how unhappy she is about leaving.
And she's looking at the tomato she was planning in the previous
scene.
That is unbelievable, you know.
That the worst enemy of this episode is Star Trek Voyager the
series.
Yeah, yeah.
Coming along to the spoiler relationship.
That's right.
Oh dear.
I love how she says feel free to use the house. to a monkey.
That monkey who's probably long, long gone now has been
immortalised in this episode.
He must have wondered what the hell was going on, actually, in his
studio.
So they just stand facing each other and they look and we can't do
anything because this is Voyager.
Now in fact, now they look awkward.
They'll treat sort of like hunched together with his arms
clasped.
Well, yeah, yeah. just sit down and there's no acknowledgement of
anything.
They sit down on the bridge and they just do an eye contact with
one another.
They don't make eye contact.
Fuck.
But no, but that should be heartbreaking.
Do you know what I mean?
That should break our hearts.
It's just annoying. weird.
Yeah, yeah.
Because they haven't had sex because we can't really feel what
they've lost because we won't acknowledge what they've lost.
And because they can't write a scene where we talk about it like
grown-ups or anything like that.
Like, look, she's weirdly not talking to him, like even not
looking at him.
Like and she normally doesn't, does she?
She's normally delivering her speeches to the screen and stuff.
She can be very wrong in the same direction.
Yes.
And then that's it, then it ends.
I'd have more respect for Jerry Tiger.
She had written that they give each other a sly look, you know
across the bridge.
Yeah, yeah.
What if they'd sneaked around for a few episodes?
Do you remember when Bashir and Ezri finally have it off in what
you leave behind?
And then they're in that battle and they look across the bridge
and we have a scene where they just look across the bridge at each
other like, I hope we get out of this alive because I want to have
sex with you.
Yeah, such a weird...
Yeah.
Like it fails in the usual voyage away by not wanting to commit to
anything that's implied by the episode and by being reluctant to
take interesting things further.
But what we get to be grateful for, I think, is maybe one of
Kate's best performances.
As an hour of Star Trek.
It's so enjoyable to watch.
But like, and we, we've discussed it, but DS9, try something, if
it doesn't work, it discards it.
If it does work, it builds on it.
Yes, exactly right.
Voyager tries something.
If it doesn't work, more often than not, they'll try it again
Fairhaven.
If it does work.
They go, well, we aren't doing that again. speak of this again.
It's so strange, isn't it?
I've never known a show work like this.
The other disappointing thing is like I think about the various
Star Trek romances in the 90s and they're all kind of terrible.
And this one wasn't.
You know, this one wasn't.
You know what?
I think my nearest comparison would be Odo and Kira in last day
DS9, where it's 2 characters that have known each other for a
while, where it's a relationship built on respect, where they
understand each other, where neither one of them forces who they
are on the other person.
Yeah.
And that works like gangbusters.
Sure.
But I meant like as an actual episode that's structured as a
romance, you know, where 2 characters are isolated, get to know
one another, have a relationship, and then the relationship ends
in some way.
What was the TNG one you brought up last time?
I think lessons might be not that works pretty well.
I think it rejoined works quite well as well.
Yeah, okay.
But they are exceptions to the rule.
I mean, there's 10 more that don't work in each show.
But I think what's disappointing about this one is it has 2
charismatic leads and it goes nowhere and then the whole Chakotay
kind of thing degenerates terribly, I think.
Um, you know, it's all just squandered.
It's usually, do you find him like trek romance?
We've done a fair few of them lately on this.
There's usually like an ick factor involved somewhere.
Yeah.
Whether that's how the man is treating the woman or, um, I don't
know, Troy turning into an old Harridan trying to attack.
Yeah, that's awesome.
Or like, I don't know, Bashir coming onto his patient in that
season 7 episode, which is very weird.
You know, there's always there's always like a level of like, ooh
this shouldn't be happening for one reason or another.
Throughout this episode.
We're like, no, no, this should be happening.
This works.
They've got great chemistry.
Now establish that they've got feelings for each other.
Let's go.
Yeah, yeah.
Let's do something interesting.
And that's the other thing too.
Like, the whole idea is this is a ship that's like a family, you
know, she says, as she's saying goodbye to them in that beautiful
speech.
They could be mum and dad.
Well, they could be, you know, like, why not?
Harry Kane would be so happy in our parents on the ship.
Because you have that relationship on Battlestar Galactica, that
primary relationship on Battlestar Galactica.
And that works really well, but that's a grown-up show that's
prepared to kind of pursue that sort of stuff and that's happy to
have 2 older characters who are in a relationship together and
just let that happen, you know, just shame.
Take it somewhere, you know, in the back of my head to a dreadful
sitcom of Voyager, where Jane Wedge goes, oh, mom and dad.
And Harry Kim is their little kid.
And he's like, come on, you've got to go to the bridge today.
Mom!
Yeah, I'd watch that.
It might have been more fun than Voyager we go, actually.
Very, very, very satisfying episode, very unsatisfying decision
post this episode.
Yeah.
All right, it's the end of the episode, and it is time for us to
decide what we're going to watch next, and I want to keep my run
of episodes of a certain level of quality, and for that reason
I've decided that this time, I'm going to choose an episode of
Enterprise.
Well, you also, the average has been below average.
So I think you're going to be happy.
Don't worry.
Okay.
All right.
Let's see how we go.
What if I get a classic?
Is there a classic?
I don't know So this is series 2, episode 19, Judgement.
Oh, that's Scott Buckular's favourite episode.
Oh really?
He pinpointed that one has his favourite episode. particularly the
speech he gives in the climax.
Is he an arsehole?
So I went and sort it out.
No, I think it's sort of, it's, you know, confirming the Star Trek
ideal to a court of Klingons.
I do remember it wasn't as great as he thought it was, but it was
probably above average.
Oh well, I'll pick another one then.
Kishara.
So I think that this is one that I want to do, and I'll tell you
why.
It's because series 4 is like super interesting and I started
watching it on the plane that one time and then didn't take it any
further and I got, you know, 5 or 6 episodes in and I liked the
way that the storytelling was like super serialised and there were
episodes kind of loosely connected and stuff, but all of the
episodes were sort of connected and one would lead on from another
and stuff.
I didn't think that it was just like, it's not like a classic
Doctor Who season where you have, you know, 6 stories told over
sort of 26 episodes or anything like that.
It still seemed like a 26 episode thing, but everything was a
little bit more serialised the way they did the previous year for
series 3.
But I think this is more fun serialised in a way.
And I think it sort of opens the world up a little bit this
season.
So I'd like to give it a go.
Every time I've dipped my toes into season four.
I've been quite impressed and I don't want to shit all over
Branenbragger and Rick Bourbon, although we do that a lot.
Yeah, yeah.
But I think the show is on a more sophisticated footing once they
are no longer sort of steering the ship.
And Manikoto has come in and he's kind of got a very sure idea of
what he wants to do with it.
I think he was hoping it was going to go to a series 5 and he was
definitely moving the show in a direction.
And finally, they're bloody embracing the past in a way that they
should have done from series one.
And what have made people sort of tune in and pay attention.
Yeah, let's do it.
And I'm going to watch all three, even though we're going to be
doing the conclusion of a...
I do think it would be very old without any context at all talking
about the conclusion to a story.
It's just that like there is now so much Star Trek out there that
is sort of serialised by the season.
So, you know, every time we do a Picard episode or a discovery
episode we're going to be in a sort of fairly similar situation.
So it's something that we might have to learn to live with.
But I think I agree with you.
I haven't seen this trilogy at all.
And I'm intrigued because the 1st part, which is called The Forge
apparently has the Vulcan embassy being bombed. so that'd be fun.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, why not?
Colour me intrigued.
Yeah.
Okay.
I think that'll be fun.
Let's do that.
You've been listening to entitled Star Trek project with Joe Ford
and Nathan Bottomley, where online at untitled Star Trek project
com, where you can find subscription links and links to our social
media accounts.
Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Sisrin and the theme was composed
by Cameron Lahn.
This episode was recorded on the 17th of October 2023 and released
on the 20th of October.
We'll see you next time for Star Trek Enterprise here, Shara.
Oh, well, I'll pick another one, then.
Kishara.
So, season four, episode nine.
I don't think we've done an episode.
I don't think we've done a series 4 episode.
It's in a trilogy though.
They're all in trilogy.
I know, I know, but our rule is if it's a two-parter, we do both
parts, but if it's a trilogy, we just do the one part.
Which trilogy is that?
Like watching like, I don't know, watching like the middle or the
end of a trilogy is just weird.
The trouble with series nine.
Sorry, the trouble with series 4 of Enterprise is, and I haven't
watched it all the way through, that it is serialised all the way
that kind of each episode does follow on from the previous episode
even across the trilogies.
And so even though there are trilogies happening, it's still kind
of a continuous story, which is what impressed me, I think, when I
started watching it.
So is Kishara part of the Klingon trilogy?
I'm just going to find that out right now.
Give me a second. genre.
K-I-R apostrophe.
S-H-A-R-A. As the Enterprise travels to Andoria to warn Shran of a
possible surprise attack, Archer and to Paul must bring a historic
obelisk to the Vulcan High Command as proof of the Cyranite's true
intentions.
So it's the.
I think it's the 2nd Yeah, the 2nd of a trilogy.
It's the middle one.
What of what trilogy, though?
I think it's like the Vulcan one in that season.
Is there a Vulcan trilogy that season?
I think, Shara, the Awakening, Serenites, Vulcan High Command.
Yeah.
Well, look, maybe it's a 2-parter.
I'm not sure.
It might be a two-parter.
You know what?
It sounds complicated.
Press it again.
Well, it just means that we won't ever get to do series.
We have done seriously, but we're going to get to do this before.
Tara Prime.
Oh yeah, that's true.
That is true.
Let's just check.
If it's a two-parted.
Like, I don't, because whenever we do discovery, it's going to be
one part of a 13 parter, we can't watch all of them. so desperate
for you to choose something like thoroughly below average.
Below average.
Let me have a look.
Oh my god.
So I think this is the, I think this is the climax of a 3 parter
which seems to start with the forge, which is the Vulcan embassy
on Earth gets bombed, then continues with awakening and then seems
to end with Kashara.
And then the next episode is called Dedalus.
Because Borderline, Borderland, Cold Station 12 and the Augment is
the organisation. trilogy.
So this is the, yeah, the end of this three.
I kind of, I mean, I wouldn't mind doing a proper series for
Enterprise episode because what we did do was kind of like the
finale, wasn't it?
Like it was demons and Terra Prime, which is essentially the
finale of Enterprise before we go into the big finale of 90s trek
with that terrible episode that everyone hates.
Oh, yeah, I might watch the three.
I might try and find time to watch the three.
Because I don't really remember much about it and I think it'd be
weird just to talk about the conclusion.
Talk about one part.
I haven't seen it, like I haven't seen it before.
I definitely haven't seen any of them or is it too hard?
What do you think?
It's just, I don't want to, well, between now and next Tuesday, I
can definitely find 3 hours.
Yeah, I wonder if I can though.
I'm just letting me have a look.
What am I recording this weekend?
No, I'm not recording this weekend.
I reckon I can too.
What do you say?
lets do that.
Yeah.
Well, so I'm not quite sure what of all that I keep. get rid of.
Just let me say...
Imagine I've just... we just selected it.
And then go from here.
So I think that this is one that I want to do.