WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-06-06 at 23:15:36

1
00:00:21.899 --> 00:00:24.660
Hey, Joe. Hi.

2
00:00:24.719 --> 00:00:30.300
So we're right at the end of Series 2 of Voyager.

3
00:00:30.359 --> 00:00:43.859
This is the 2nd last episode before we go into basics part one. and I remembered watching this episode originally, but what I was surprised by watching it this time was how great I thought it was.

4
00:00:44.520 --> 00:00:51.659
I'm going to take a stab and say that and you know the scene, and I'm not going to say what the scene is.

5
00:00:51.719 --> 00:00:57.659
Voyager may have peaked in this episode and it's all downhill from here.

6
00:00:57.719 --> 00:01:02.340
With the occasional sort of, you know, memorable action romp.

7
00:01:02.460 --> 00:01:04.019
I love this at the time.

8
00:01:04.079 --> 00:01:09.299
I remember watching this at the time and, you know, we've talked about series 2 of Voyager before.

9
00:01:09.359 --> 00:01:11.640
How it's one of my favourites.

10
00:01:11.700 --> 00:01:14.519
We've been going back and we've done a couple now, haven't we?

11
00:01:14.579 --> 00:01:15.299
We done alliances.

12
00:01:15.359 --> 00:01:16.920
Yeah, we've done this.

13
00:01:16.980 --> 00:01:18.659
I can't remember what else we've done from two.

14
00:01:18.719 --> 00:01:20.939
We have done another one as well. they've all been great.

15
00:01:21.000 --> 00:01:22.200
State of Fox.

16
00:01:22.260 --> 00:01:23.519
Oh, that was from one, wasn't it?

17
00:01:23.579 --> 00:01:25.560
But yeah, early voyager. early boys, yeah.

18
00:01:25.620 --> 00:01:27.719
There's so much potential here.

19
00:01:27.840 --> 00:01:29.280
Yeah.

20
00:01:29.280 --> 00:01:32.340
And we're just on the verge of exploiting it in this episode.

21
00:01:33.180 --> 00:01:35.219
And then we don't.

22
00:01:35.280 --> 00:01:38.459
And then we don't. no It's like I sent you in a message.

23
00:01:38.519 --> 00:01:44.040
Watcher does like flirting with magnificence and then completely ignoring it afterwards.

24
00:01:44.280 --> 00:01:46.620
It's a huge disappointment.

25
00:01:46.680 --> 00:01:53.159
And I think, like, we have done a number of romances on Star Trek the Next Generation.

26
00:01:53.219 --> 00:01:59.280
And frankly, all of the men in those were just absolute fucking creeps.

27
00:01:59.340 --> 00:02:10.620
So Ronan, Odan and Raal most recently seen being oiled up by Deanna in the Price.

28
00:02:10.680 --> 00:02:12.240
They're all awful.

29
00:02:12.300 --> 00:02:15.060
Like, they're so creepy and they're so gross.

30
00:02:15.120 --> 00:02:20.280
And like Jerry Taylor, who writes this, was involved in at least some of those, wasn't she?

31
00:02:20.340 --> 00:02:24.539
Oh, she's written a number of terrible tread romances.

32
00:02:24.599 --> 00:02:28.439
But this gets it absolutely right.

33
00:02:28.500 --> 00:02:34.020
And Chakotay is so charming and so perfect for this.

34
00:02:34.080 --> 00:02:49.560
And the romance really lands until the point where they should kiss and don't, and then there's a very weird scene where the relationship is clearly over, but we don't know why, possibly because it's the end of the episode.

35
00:02:49.620 --> 00:02:52.139
And there's no consequences.

36
00:02:52.199 --> 00:02:56.759
The sad truth is, you know, I fear that Chakotay may have peaked in this episode as well.

37
00:02:56.819 --> 00:03:04.020
Unfortunately, Robert Belshard is going to be in 5 more seasons of Star Trek after this, giving a slightly relaxed performance.

38
00:03:04.020 --> 00:03:05.939
Yeah, he's so gentle with her.

39
00:03:06.000 --> 00:03:07.080
That's what I really liked.

40
00:03:07.139 --> 00:03:19.139
And he wants her to come to the conclusion that they may not get off the planet, but he won't force her, which is what those other kids would have done in those other episodes.

41
00:03:19.199 --> 00:03:19.740
Exactly.

42
00:03:19.740 --> 00:03:21.240
He doesn't force her to do it.

43
00:03:21.300 --> 00:03:32.639
He gently waits and he gently suggests we might be here for a long time and makes life extremely comfortable for her whilst she comes to that conclusion herself.

44
00:03:32.699 --> 00:03:34.199
It's like I said to you.

45
00:03:34.259 --> 00:03:41.879
This episode never once convinced me that Jane and Shikotay are going to have a log cabin like Calamity Jane and Katie out of the woods for the rest of their lives.

46
00:03:41.879 --> 00:03:51.240
All the episode had to do was convince us that Shameway believe that, so they could have that conversation at the end of the episode, which is the really important moment.

47
00:03:51.300 --> 00:04:00.000
Yeah, I thought I remember Chakotay being quite a compelling character, which is why as we've done these Voyager episodes.

48
00:04:00.060 --> 00:04:02.819
I'm going, well, it's my memory that I have full C.

49
00:04:02.879 --> 00:04:03.960
What's going on?

50
00:04:04.020 --> 00:04:07.259
No, it's for the 1st couple of years where he's got a bit of edge.

51
00:04:07.319 --> 00:04:12.780
That scene I said to you about where he punches the marquee man down and says, oh, you want to do things the marquee way. fine.

52
00:04:12.840 --> 00:04:13.800
Well, do it.

53
00:04:13.860 --> 00:04:18.060
And here with the with how he treats Janeway in this episode.

54
00:04:18.120 --> 00:04:22.259
This is the interesting Chakotay that I remember.

55
00:04:22.319 --> 00:04:27.839
What a shame that they just didn't invest in his character after this.

56
00:04:28.500 --> 00:04:35.100
I think the other thing that's extraordinary is just what an incredibly great performance Kate gives.

57
00:04:35.220 --> 00:04:41.819
Like just she's doing something in every scene with every line, every reaction.

58
00:04:41.879 --> 00:04:44.519
There are just some incredible moments.

59
00:04:44.579 --> 00:04:47.040
She's not, like she's not the method, is she?

60
00:04:47.100 --> 00:04:57.180
She's like a more sort of traditional actor who is letting you know what the character feels in a sort of communicative way rather than by imitating it.

61
00:04:57.240 --> 00:04:59.100
And she does such a good job.

62
00:04:59.160 --> 00:05:01.079
She's so, so tremendous.

63
00:05:01.139 --> 00:05:03.060
I think a time point out bit.

64
00:05:03.480 --> 00:05:14.399
Well, the bit the bit at the end, you like the bit at the end where she's planting the seedlings and then he comes along and she just throws her head back and laughs in the most relaxed.

65
00:05:14.459 --> 00:05:16.259
I'm going to love my life here away.

66
00:05:16.259 --> 00:05:23.579
Just as the com cystal comes in and goes, oh, it's Chevoc here, you know, we're going to be in you up to the ship now, you know.

67
00:05:23.639 --> 00:05:24.899
It's just perfect.

68
00:05:24.959 --> 00:05:26.279
But, you know, can I do the line?

69
00:05:26.339 --> 00:05:30.300
Because every time I think about this episode, only one line comes to my head.

70
00:05:30.300 --> 00:05:31.680
And that is, what's that?

71
00:05:31.740 --> 00:05:33.120
building.

72
00:05:33.180 --> 00:05:34.500
What could you be building?

73
00:05:34.560 --> 00:05:36.300
And why can't you tell me?

74
00:05:36.779 --> 00:05:38.759
Oh, she's great.

75
00:05:38.819 --> 00:05:45.959
But just seeing her not literally with her hair down, but seeing her relax throughout this episode.

76
00:05:46.019 --> 00:05:47.040
That's the joy of it.

77
00:05:47.100 --> 00:05:52.920
And it is like a, it's a very different performance to that sort of stick up that butt that she does on the bridge.

78
00:05:52.980 --> 00:06:00.000
And I know sort of in later seasons, she does learn to sort of be a bit more gentle within her authority.

79
00:06:00.060 --> 00:06:09.120
I think initially they wanted her to be, didn't they, very masculine and hard-assed because for good sakes, we've got a woman in command of the ship, you know, yeah, yeah.

80
00:06:09.120 --> 00:06:10.920
We can't let her be too feminine.

81
00:06:10.980 --> 00:06:15.060
You got those people, all those people in the suits at the back of the set saying, you know, sort your ear out, love.

82
00:06:15.120 --> 00:06:20.819
Come on. yeah But seeing her, this, ah, just that one with life.

83
00:06:20.879 --> 00:06:22.740
Yes, just enjoy it.

84
00:06:22.800 --> 00:06:27.060
And you're right, the way Mulgroup plays all of it is extremely watchable.

85
00:06:27.120 --> 00:06:28.920
Yeah, she's great.

86
00:06:28.980 --> 00:06:30.839
She's absolutely superb.

87
00:06:30.899 --> 00:06:33.420
And so there's also the B plot on board the ship.

88
00:06:33.480 --> 00:06:45.000
And the funny thing about that is that it hits a couple of the beats that the Galileo 7 hit last time where you have Tuvok having to make command decisions.

89
00:06:45.240 --> 00:06:47.819
And in one...

90
00:06:47.879 --> 00:06:49.139
We said we did this a lot, didn't we?

91
00:06:49.199 --> 00:06:49.920
Yeah, yeah.

92
00:06:49.980 --> 00:06:58.259
So in one scene, the worst, Robert gets cross at him for not caring about the fact that Janeway and Chakotay were being left behind.

93
00:06:58.259 --> 00:07:06.300
And there's also that little needling bit from Kes in a scene that the 2 of them have together.

94
00:07:06.360 --> 00:07:08.519
I like that scene, though, because he will listen to that.

95
00:07:08.639 --> 00:07:09.360
Yeah.

96
00:07:09.420 --> 00:07:22.439
I think it's a mistake because, you know, I think they've decided that because Tuvok is a Vulcan, not half Vulcan like Spock, but just a Vulcan.

97
00:07:22.500 --> 00:07:27.540
So he is less emotional and doesn't have that emotional conflict that Spock has.

98
00:07:27.600 --> 00:07:37.199
But that's not really as interesting as where we end up landing with the Vulcans, which is they have strong emotions and have learned the importance of controlling them.

99
00:07:37.259 --> 00:07:43.560
So it's not that Tuvok can't feel the loss of his friend, which is almost what we get here.

100
00:07:43.620 --> 00:07:52.740
It's that he does feel it and maybe more deeply than everyone else on board the ship, but he's learned to control it because he has to.

101
00:07:52.800 --> 00:07:59.339
And that's a more interesting story than he's just a kind of robot and he doesn't care as much as everyone else, which is what the script does.

102
00:07:59.399 --> 00:08:09.600
The other beat that it hits is Janeway accusing him in the final scene of having an emotional reaction, which is exactly what Kirk does with Spock at the end of Galileo 7.

103
00:08:09.660 --> 00:08:18.000
I mean, a lot of that, where you just said there about him sort of digging with all this under the surface, it's very subtle, and I think you probably have to look for it a bit.

104
00:08:18.060 --> 00:08:22.740
Yeah, I think that he's very good in this because of course he is.

105
00:08:23.040 --> 00:08:25.199
Yeah, he's given something to do.

106
00:08:25.259 --> 00:08:27.240
He must have been absolutely delighted.

107
00:08:27.300 --> 00:08:37.019
What annoyed me about that subplot was Harry Kim. who essentially attempts to incite a rebellion on Voyager because he can't get his own way because he won't leave Mother behind.

108
00:08:37.259 --> 00:08:40.080
And again, I think that's part of the problem.

109
00:08:40.139 --> 00:08:54.659
You know, people complain about the Roddenbury rule that we shouldn't have regular characters in conflict with one another, and they say that that doesn't make for drama, but this sort of conflict between the characters doesn't make for drama either.

110
00:08:54.720 --> 00:08:57.000
Well, no, we know Star Trek well enough.

111
00:08:57.059 --> 00:08:58.019
We know the formula.

112
00:08:58.080 --> 00:09:02.279
We know Jane Wen's going to be back at the end of the episode and we know Harry Kim isn't going to be in the brig.

113
00:09:02.340 --> 00:09:03.299
And that's a problem.

114
00:09:03.360 --> 00:09:06.960
If you're playing out these scenes and you know the conclusion to all of this.

115
00:09:07.019 --> 00:09:09.299
But it's not just that.

116
00:09:09.360 --> 00:09:14.820
It's just that those interactions where they're sort of being grumpy and petulant and stuff aren't fun to watch.

117
00:09:14.879 --> 00:09:32.220
And if they're people that we like and people who've laughed a lot together and stuff and they're sad and they're trying to support one another or they're trying to get on with their work and not managing it or whatever, that's more interesting than just Bilanas bitchy to that ensign for no reason.

118
00:09:32.279 --> 00:09:36.779
And, you know, Harry's sucking his thumb and being insubordinate.

119
00:09:36.840 --> 00:09:42.059
He always feels like his bottom lips just protruding just a little bit, don't he, Harry Kim?

120
00:09:42.120 --> 00:09:43.500
Like he's a bit sulky.

121
00:09:43.559 --> 00:09:44.159
Yeah.

122
00:09:44.159 --> 00:09:49.500
Can I give you a glimpse into what you might have seen had Kenneth Biller had his way with this episode?

123
00:09:49.559 --> 00:09:50.759
Oh, okay.

124
00:09:50.820 --> 00:09:53.580
Okay, so we've got him quoting here on memory alpha.

125
00:09:53.639 --> 00:09:59.399
I had a hand in resolutions in the sense that I wanted to do a story about Janeway and Chakotay stranded on the planet.

126
00:09:59.460 --> 00:10:03.299
But I wanted to do a more sci-fi twist on it.

127
00:10:03.360 --> 00:10:10.980
I can see you rolling your eyes already where they get stranded and Voyager literally left for a time eddy to get home.

128
00:10:11.039 --> 00:10:15.840
When they come back, Chakotay and Jane might have aged 40 years and have a family.

129
00:10:16.259 --> 00:10:18.840
Oh, we've done that, haven't we?

130
00:10:18.899 --> 00:10:22.559
Jerry Taylor felt it was too reminiscent of the inner light.

131
00:10:22.620 --> 00:10:24.360
Oh, okay.

132
00:10:24.419 --> 00:10:26.700
What about children of time?

133
00:10:26.820 --> 00:10:28.679
No, we hadn't had that yet?

134
00:10:28.740 --> 00:10:29.159
I don't think.

135
00:10:29.220 --> 00:10:30.179
Oh okay.

136
00:10:30.240 --> 00:10:30.840
Right.

137
00:10:31.320 --> 00:10:33.120
Maybe around about this time, actually.

138
00:10:33.179 --> 00:10:33.659
Yeah.

139
00:10:33.720 --> 00:10:35.580
Voyager 2, DS 95. yeah.

140
00:10:35.639 --> 00:10:37.740
I mean, that's an interesting idea.

141
00:10:37.860 --> 00:10:40.259
Yeah, but not a very interesting one.

142
00:10:41.940 --> 00:10:45.659
Well, no, because instead of ageing makeup.

143
00:10:45.720 --> 00:10:47.039
Definitely.

144
00:10:47.159 --> 00:10:48.419
And it would have been terrible.

145
00:10:49.080 --> 00:10:58.379
The good thing is, is you love hang time, and this is essentially the 2 of them just hanging out. waiting for Janeway to decide to fuck him, you know?

146
00:10:58.440 --> 00:10:59.399
Yeah, it's wonderful.

147
00:10:59.460 --> 00:11:02.399
Do you want to hear what Robert Belcheron has to say about this?

148
00:11:02.460 --> 00:11:04.080
Yeah, okay.

149
00:11:04.200 --> 00:11:05.159
Of course you do.

150
00:11:05.220 --> 00:11:12.480
So he has to say, it's a Star Trek romance, he says, which means we touch hands and it's supposed to be thrilling.

151
00:11:13.620 --> 00:11:19.139
I think he's a bit pissed, you know, that he doesn't get to, you know, have it off with Kate Mulgrew.

152
00:11:19.200 --> 00:11:20.159
Yeah.

153
00:11:20.220 --> 00:11:24.059
Well, I'm a bit pissed that didn't happen because, I mean, it's a romance.

154
00:11:24.120 --> 00:11:28.679
All of the beats and there's a big hole at the end of it where they don't kiss.

155
00:11:28.679 --> 00:11:30.659
I mean, I think they do kiss.

156
00:11:30.720 --> 00:11:31.919
We cut away from the scene.

157
00:11:32.039 --> 00:11:35.100
No, no, no, no, but that's not how you do it.

158
00:11:35.159 --> 00:11:37.919
Like we weren't going to see them kissing necessarily.

159
00:11:37.980 --> 00:11:46.559
We weren't going to see them having sex, but we were at least going to know that the writers and everyone concerned means us to understand that that's what's happening.

160
00:11:46.679 --> 00:11:54.299
But instead, we get the very definite kind of feeling that they go, oh, shit, this is the romance. don't think we want to deal with this properly.

161
00:11:54.360 --> 00:11:57.000
Let's not have that scene after all.

162
00:11:57.059 --> 00:11:58.919
So frustrating.

163
00:11:58.980 --> 00:12:00.120
It's really bad.

164
00:12:00.179 --> 00:12:10.379
So he was initially quite critical of this, but later on, sort of years later, he said it pushed the emotional boundaries of what the show could do.

165
00:12:10.440 --> 00:12:13.500
I think it turned out to be a very good story.

166
00:12:13.559 --> 00:12:17.399
He doesn't think that it cements the relationship in a romantic way.

167
00:12:17.460 --> 00:12:21.480
He just thinks it's a very strong friendship that's solidified here.

168
00:12:21.539 --> 00:12:23.399
I don't think that's what they're doing.

169
00:12:23.460 --> 00:12:24.360
No.

170
00:12:24.419 --> 00:12:36.659
And we've complained, remember, that we then go on to have a couple of season finales where Chakoto just says fuck you and is massively insubordinate and doesn't kind of give a shit.

171
00:12:36.779 --> 00:12:48.779
And even after that line in Scorpion, You know, where she says to him, 3 years ago, I didn't even know your name and now I can't imagine a day without you.

172
00:12:48.840 --> 00:12:50.639
You know, like that.

173
00:12:50.700 --> 00:12:58.679
Like, that was so sort of fantastic and spectacular and such a, and just, you know, just another brilliant mulgrew delivered line.

174
00:12:59.580 --> 00:13:03.899
But it would carry even more weight, you know, they were having a romantic relationship.

175
00:13:03.960 --> 00:13:05.700
And why can't we do that?

176
00:13:05.820 --> 00:13:07.080
Like, why?

177
00:13:07.200 --> 00:13:07.919
can't they do that?

178
00:13:08.039 --> 00:13:09.720
They won't let Picard have one.

179
00:13:09.779 --> 00:13:11.700
They won't, again, DFI's the outlier.

180
00:13:11.759 --> 00:13:15.299
Cisco is the only one who's allowed to have a long-term relationship, a mature one.

181
00:13:15.360 --> 00:13:18.779
And other characters have relationships that last and stuff like that.

182
00:13:18.840 --> 00:13:19.620
Like they do it.

183
00:13:19.679 --> 00:13:23.519
No, instead we give Janeway Fairhaven, don't we?

184
00:13:23.580 --> 00:13:26.820
And the opportunity to personalise her own dildo.

185
00:13:26.879 --> 00:13:29.100
Yeah, yeah, yeah. and delete his wife.

186
00:13:29.159 --> 00:13:30.360
Delete the wife.

187
00:13:30.419 --> 00:13:32.700
Yeah. like that scene.

188
00:13:32.759 --> 00:13:37.080
Jerry Taylor says, you know, this show is going to make a lot of people happy.

189
00:13:37.139 --> 00:13:44.460
At least according to the mail, I get, because basically it traps Commander Shakotay and Captain Jane, we're together on a desert island planet.

190
00:13:44.519 --> 00:13:47.159
So the portion of the audience were gagging for this.

191
00:13:47.220 --> 00:13:48.120
Yeah.

192
00:13:48.419 --> 00:13:50.700
That's another reason to keep it going.

193
00:13:51.059 --> 00:13:57.179
I think it works as an episode because it does that sort of stuff.

194
00:13:57.240 --> 00:13:59.159
It gives Kate the chance to act.

195
00:13:59.220 --> 00:14:01.019
It's sort of solid.

196
00:14:01.080 --> 00:14:05.639
She imbues some of the cheesy dialogue with some real kind of warmth.

197
00:14:05.700 --> 00:14:07.559
It's it's terrific.

198
00:14:07.620 --> 00:14:09.419
She's so happy doing it.

199
00:14:09.480 --> 00:14:13.919
The scenes where she has to have one-sided dialogue scenes with the monkey.

200
00:14:13.980 --> 00:14:16.980
I mean, I said, oh, you are game, Kate, you are game.

201
00:14:17.039 --> 00:14:18.779
I like the monkey as well.

202
00:14:18.840 --> 00:14:22.679
Before we go in, can I give the last word to Kate Mulgrew herself?

203
00:14:22.679 --> 00:14:27.059
Yes. about this episode because we all want to know what she's got to say about this romance.

204
00:14:27.899 --> 00:14:32.100
The audience is very faithful to these ideas and concepts.

205
00:14:32.159 --> 00:14:35.460
My God, you just know when I'm reading out something by K-Mol grew, don't you?

206
00:14:35.580 --> 00:14:36.960
Yeah, she's smart isn't she?

207
00:14:37.019 --> 00:14:38.039
She's so clever.

208
00:14:38.399 --> 00:14:50.100
If they see a match taking place or revolving and they see it actually enhanced via a wonderful episode like resolutions, then I think they're quite disconcerted when it's just left.

209
00:14:50.279 --> 00:14:52.799
And I am equally so.

210
00:14:52.860 --> 00:14:58.139
Yeah, she's she's pretty appalled that they didn't follow this up.

211
00:14:58.200 --> 00:14:59.519
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

212
00:14:59.580 --> 00:15:01.379
I think it's a it's a shame.

213
00:15:01.440 --> 00:15:06.720
However, I don't think our lingering impression that this episode should be that it's a failure.

214
00:15:06.779 --> 00:15:08.399
The episode is a success, isn't it?

215
00:15:08.519 --> 00:15:11.399
But it's just where they went next that doesn't work.

216
00:15:11.460 --> 00:15:12.419
I think so.

217
00:15:12.480 --> 00:15:18.659
I think they just kind of bottle out at the end in a sort of really weird and upsettingly disappointing way.

218
00:15:18.720 --> 00:15:24.000
I'm only emphasising that because we've done a handful of wager episodes recently where we've been really mean.

219
00:15:24.899 --> 00:15:27.360
No, I enjoyed this a great deal.

220
00:15:27.419 --> 00:15:30.179
I watched it twice in preparation.

221
00:15:30.240 --> 00:15:31.019
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

222
00:15:31.080 --> 00:15:34.980
You said that to me in one episode and I've taken it on as like a life goal now.

223
00:15:35.039 --> 00:15:35.879
It's nice to be nice.

224
00:15:35.940 --> 00:15:38.039
Well, let's do it, should we?

225
00:15:38.039 --> 00:15:39.059
I think we should.

226
00:15:39.120 --> 00:15:40.620
I will count us in.

227
00:15:40.799 --> 00:15:45.779
Five, four, three, two, one.

228
00:15:46.379 --> 00:15:48.240
And we're off.

229
00:15:48.360 --> 00:15:51.120
And I believe we're outside.

230
00:15:51.179 --> 00:15:54.000
Yeah, so...

231
00:15:54.059 --> 00:16:03.899
No, some of this stuff is outside and some of it's indoors, but the indoor outside sets are pretty good.

232
00:16:04.080 --> 00:16:10.440
And there is some talk on memory alpha of them doing a night shoot as well.

233
00:16:10.980 --> 00:16:12.899
Oh, okay.

234
00:16:12.960 --> 00:16:14.220
Well, let's keep an eye out for that.

235
00:16:14.279 --> 00:16:19.379
Well, the best thing about the the inside forests that they do is there's a lot of overhang.

236
00:16:19.440 --> 00:16:21.659
So we can't see the backgrounds of any of the sets.

237
00:16:21.779 --> 00:16:24.299
Yeah, yeah, we don't see the sky and stuff.

238
00:16:24.360 --> 00:16:26.700
But I think that's that's really good.

239
00:16:26.759 --> 00:16:30.779
And I do like this sort of big vista as well that we get to see.

240
00:16:30.840 --> 00:16:31.620
Like that's pretty awesome.

241
00:16:32.700 --> 00:16:43.799
So what's occurred here is Janeway and Chakotay have been stung by a pair of insects that for some reason means they can no longer travel through space.

242
00:16:43.860 --> 00:16:44.340
Is that right?

243
00:16:44.399 --> 00:16:47.399
It means they can't leave this environment.

244
00:16:47.519 --> 00:16:49.559
They can't leave this planet.

245
00:16:49.620 --> 00:16:54.419
Is there any, and now, is there... analogous to anything on this planet?

246
00:16:54.480 --> 00:16:55.740
I don't care.

247
00:16:55.799 --> 00:16:56.519
Like whatever.

248
00:16:56.580 --> 00:16:59.159
It's they're staying here for space reasons.

249
00:16:59.220 --> 00:17:00.899
It's pretty thin.

250
00:17:01.379 --> 00:17:05.099
And there's clearly a medical cure for it available.

251
00:17:05.160 --> 00:17:06.660
So the doctor, do you know what I mean?

252
00:17:06.720 --> 00:17:07.740
Like, whatever, I don't know.

253
00:17:07.799 --> 00:17:11.519
So they've effectively could have just said sort of ideas now.

254
00:17:11.579 --> 00:17:12.599
Oh, you got the cure for this.

255
00:17:12.660 --> 00:17:13.980
Yeah, great. quick, come up again.

256
00:17:14.039 --> 00:17:16.140
You know, like, we're not leaving without you.

257
00:17:16.200 --> 00:17:18.180
But then we would have no fun at all.

258
00:17:18.240 --> 00:17:19.440
No.

259
00:17:19.559 --> 00:17:20.519
No.

260
00:17:20.519 --> 00:17:26.700
And like, there's a good reason not to, uh, not to kind of consult the Videans.

261
00:17:26.759 --> 00:17:34.380
And I think that's another thing that's well done here because we refer, so there are 5 episodes with Vedians.

262
00:17:34.440 --> 00:17:50.039
This is the last time they're in it, and we actually talk about those interactions with the Videans, and in the conversation with Harry and the doctor, we refer to a bunch of them.

263
00:17:50.099 --> 00:17:52.920
We get a character from a previous for DN episode back.

264
00:17:52.980 --> 00:17:54.420
Consequences.

265
00:17:54.480 --> 00:17:58.259
Yeah, consequences and continuity.

266
00:17:58.319 --> 00:17:59.279
Exactly.

267
00:17:59.339 --> 00:18:00.299
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

268
00:18:00.359 --> 00:18:03.299
And we talked before about how in a way it doesn't make any sense.

269
00:18:03.359 --> 00:18:06.779
Like how are they going home and still continuing to encounter these people.

270
00:18:06.839 --> 00:18:14.880
But I think it's more important that it seems to take place, you know, that things happen to a group of people and we remember them and they do as well.

271
00:18:14.940 --> 00:18:20.220
Well, the good thing about the Videans as well is a genuinely good idea.

272
00:18:20.279 --> 00:18:22.859
They're sort of goouish to look at.

273
00:18:22.980 --> 00:18:31.440
The 1st couple of episodes are where Brandan Bragger said that he wanted to do like the X-Files in space with Star Trek Voyager.

274
00:18:31.500 --> 00:18:41.339
And I think that might be the closest he got, you know, when he did the Hannibal Lecter face of Dirst, being put over the Vidian face or Neelix losing his lungs and things like that.

275
00:18:41.400 --> 00:18:45.599
It was for all, it's ridiculous, but it's kind of horrible as well, you know?

276
00:18:45.599 --> 00:18:49.859
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. nasty B movie sort of crazy sort of way.

277
00:18:49.920 --> 00:18:54.900
Yeah, they're like sort of weird Frankenstein's monsters sort of thing that sort of construct themselves.

278
00:18:54.960 --> 00:18:59.519
And they're a bit like the Borg only creepy organic zombie Borg, you know.

279
00:18:59.579 --> 00:19:03.779
You know, and it all leads up to deadlock where you have them storm onto Voyager.

280
00:19:03.779 --> 00:19:09.180
Yeah, shooting everyone down and going, right, we're going to take his lungs, you know, it's all, it's, that's really great stuff.

281
00:19:09.240 --> 00:19:10.500
So of course you don't want to leave them behind.

282
00:19:10.559 --> 00:19:12.359
Yeah, yeah.

283
00:19:12.420 --> 00:19:13.680
If it's a good idea.

284
00:19:13.740 --> 00:19:15.000
But we stop all of this.

285
00:19:15.059 --> 00:19:19.079
I mean, I think I think you could pretty much this and basics.

286
00:19:19.140 --> 00:19:20.700
This is where it all stops.

287
00:19:20.759 --> 00:19:21.599
Yeah.

288
00:19:21.599 --> 00:19:28.019
Having aliens that we keep coming back to, having characters that have relationships and progress.

289
00:19:28.079 --> 00:19:34.319
We, we flirt a bit with Jane Wayne 7 and that, that becomes a massive focus.

290
00:19:34.380 --> 00:19:36.660
But I think that becomes the excuse then.

291
00:19:36.720 --> 00:19:38.220
Like that works really well.

292
00:19:38.279 --> 00:19:39.960
We haven't got a bother with the others, you know?

293
00:19:40.019 --> 00:19:40.920
Yeah.

294
00:19:40.980 --> 00:19:41.940
Yeah.

295
00:19:42.000 --> 00:19:49.799
I mean, you know, Deep Space 9 is on the other end with sort of a massive semi-regular cast and stuff and this is gesturing at that.

296
00:19:49.859 --> 00:19:58.140
I mean, we've got Hogan in this episode and we have another crew member who's in 2 vics and in this episode.

297
00:19:58.200 --> 00:20:02.220
So, you know, there's that sort of little bit of continuity.

298
00:20:02.279 --> 00:20:04.980
But see this, I think, so this is the B plot here.

299
00:20:05.039 --> 00:20:14.759
So the A plot gets introduced before the, um, you know, and we're on the, we're on the planet, listening to the doctor.

300
00:20:14.819 --> 00:20:18.000
I mean, we do go up to the thing, he's not just a voice in that scene.

301
00:20:18.059 --> 00:20:19.079
We get to see him on the ship.

302
00:20:19.140 --> 00:20:21.539
Now we're on the ship and we're seeing how everyone's reacting.

303
00:20:21.599 --> 00:20:24.119
Neelix is lying is the worst.

304
00:20:24.240 --> 00:20:30.180
I'm going to tell you now, people, morale will suffer, not having the captain and 1st officer on.

305
00:20:30.240 --> 00:20:31.380
Fuck me.

306
00:20:31.440 --> 00:20:32.759
No shit, Sherlock.

307
00:20:32.819 --> 00:20:40.920
But what's really weird is Kiss says the doctor has been doing some drastic research. drastic research.

308
00:20:41.819 --> 00:20:45.839
You remember that conversation we had about the slimers and equinox?

309
00:20:46.319 --> 00:20:49.440
He's been torturing those bugs, I tell you.

310
00:20:49.500 --> 00:20:51.240
Getting very drastic.

311
00:20:54.240 --> 00:20:56.880
I love 90s trek dialogue.

312
00:20:57.000 --> 00:20:57.660
I really do.

313
00:20:59.339 --> 00:21:03.180
I was just like, oh, wait, just giving Neelix a lion.

314
00:21:03.240 --> 00:21:05.400
They've just thrown in this very obvious line.

315
00:21:05.519 --> 00:21:07.920
Well, yeah. there is a little bit of that.

316
00:21:07.980 --> 00:21:09.839
We do we do get some of that.

317
00:21:09.900 --> 00:21:18.900
I mean, we've already had some of that between Janeway and Chakotay where Chakotay explains to Janeway what she must surely know about the Videans.

318
00:21:18.960 --> 00:21:20.819
Like, it's... all the time they do that.

319
00:21:20.940 --> 00:21:22.619
We talked about that before.

320
00:21:22.680 --> 00:21:36.420
And so here is Mr. Boma, this week's Mr. Boma played by the worst, Robert, um, complaining that the Vulcan doesn't have any feelings or emotions, uh, just like in Galileo 7.

321
00:21:36.539 --> 00:21:39.900
You know, you said Bobo, then you know exactly where my mind was.

322
00:21:39.900 --> 00:21:40.980
You've got a bit excited.

323
00:21:40.980 --> 00:21:44.099
I'm like, why is he like one of those aliens from series 4?

324
00:21:45.720 --> 00:21:47.640
Oh, Harry.

325
00:21:47.759 --> 00:21:49.859
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

326
00:21:49.920 --> 00:21:53.400
The true douchebag of the Star Trek, yeah.

327
00:21:53.880 --> 00:21:59.579
And again, you know, like he could be feeling bereft rather than just pissy about it.

328
00:21:59.700 --> 00:22:07.799
Like if he was if we were being really properly interesting, um, you know, he could almost write him off.

329
00:22:07.859 --> 00:22:10.799
And then you get an episode like Timeless and you're like, oh, dear.

330
00:22:10.859 --> 00:22:14.700
So we just haven't been bothering with him then. that's right.

331
00:22:15.119 --> 00:22:17.099
Oh, the killing game.

332
00:22:17.160 --> 00:22:19.200
Why does you've said this to me?

333
00:22:19.200 --> 00:22:21.660
Why does all this equipment look so lightweight?

334
00:22:21.720 --> 00:22:23.700
It looks like it doesn't weigh anything, does it?

335
00:22:23.759 --> 00:22:24.720
Yeah, yeah.

336
00:22:24.720 --> 00:22:29.039
Well, they had to transport it in trucks out to the location. plastic.

337
00:22:30.180 --> 00:22:35.039
Oh, now this is something that Jerry Taylor does brilliantly with Janeway.

338
00:22:35.099 --> 00:22:36.240
A love of science.

339
00:22:36.299 --> 00:22:38.819
Yeah, yeah, I love that.

340
00:22:38.880 --> 00:22:45.779
And how Kate Mulgrew plays it because whenever she's an interview, she always talks about loving the fact that she was playing a passionate scientist.

341
00:22:45.839 --> 00:22:48.180
She really delivers that to the screen.

342
00:22:51.240 --> 00:22:53.279
But look at her.

343
00:22:53.339 --> 00:22:57.539
And look how they're already bonding in this really nice way.

344
00:22:57.660 --> 00:23:08.220
And in a way, the crude, like when Tuvok like contacts them, that's kind of interrupting and spoiling their fun slightly.

345
00:23:08.940 --> 00:23:11.519
Well, they do it again at the end of the episode.

346
00:23:11.519 --> 00:23:13.500
Well, yeah, yeah, very much at the end.

347
00:23:13.559 --> 00:23:14.759
You know, very dramatic way.

348
00:23:14.819 --> 00:23:16.980
They were about to go, are they off again?

349
00:23:17.039 --> 00:23:21.240
Well, I'd have been tempted to just go, let's just pretend we didn't hear that.

350
00:23:21.299 --> 00:23:23.220
Yeah, just one more time.

351
00:23:23.279 --> 00:23:24.539
Sorry.

352
00:23:24.839 --> 00:23:27.240
Nathan, I can't hear you.

353
00:23:28.799 --> 00:23:31.980
Oh, at least maybe you should call me Catherine.

354
00:23:32.220 --> 00:23:34.380
Then his reaction.

355
00:23:34.440 --> 00:23:37.740
Like, he's, he's so charming.

356
00:23:37.799 --> 00:23:39.180
He's like the perfect man in this.

357
00:23:39.599 --> 00:23:42.359
See, this scene is not fun to watch.

358
00:23:42.420 --> 00:23:44.700
Like, why is she being horrible?

359
00:23:44.759 --> 00:23:49.920
Why can't she have some sympathy about poor old Lieutenant Swinn or whatever her name is?

360
00:23:49.980 --> 00:23:53.220
You know, like, this is mean, like, that's not fun.

361
00:23:53.279 --> 00:23:54.059
That's not interesting.

362
00:23:54.180 --> 00:23:56.640
They do this a lot, you know.

363
00:23:56.700 --> 00:24:07.440
I remember a couple of scenes in DS9 where, you know, something, the one where Kira finds out about a mother and Dukat, and she goes straight to Ops and takes it out on a couple of people gossiping, you know?

364
00:24:07.500 --> 00:24:08.099
you know?

365
00:24:08.099 --> 00:24:09.180
Yeah.

366
00:24:09.240 --> 00:24:15.480
But I just don't think that's fun, you know, like if they're hurt, if they're feeling bad, show us that. you know, like why are they just being pretty?

367
00:24:15.599 --> 00:24:16.259
some empathy.

368
00:24:16.319 --> 00:24:18.420
You are in an authoritative role on this ship.

369
00:24:18.480 --> 00:24:23.400
And there's supposed to be, we're about to get a speed, aren't we?

370
00:24:23.460 --> 00:24:28.680
Are we about to get a speech where the thing I remember most is from that.

371
00:24:28.920 --> 00:24:40.799
The thing the thing I remember most is the bitching at one another, you know, like, I really love as well as that scene is taking place, the camera pulls up.

372
00:24:40.859 --> 00:24:44.279
It's a really lovely moment of direction.

373
00:24:44.339 --> 00:24:46.079
It's Alexander Singer that directs this.

374
00:24:46.140 --> 00:24:49.619
And if you look at the episodes he does, There's some other better looking ones.

375
00:24:49.740 --> 00:24:52.500
It's also sort of a bit subtle.

376
00:24:52.559 --> 00:25:01.500
I noticed the be, we'll talk about it when we get there, but he, he's careful at, you know, deciding who is in frame at any one sort of particular point.

377
00:25:01.559 --> 00:25:06.900
But that thing where we have the 2 of them looking up into the air and delivering that speech is wonderful.

378
00:25:06.960 --> 00:25:09.180
Look at this dress.

379
00:25:09.240 --> 00:25:10.619
Janeway is wearing a lovely dress.

380
00:25:10.680 --> 00:25:14.279
And she's put watch her hair throughout the episode.

381
00:25:14.339 --> 00:25:15.779
It gets more and more relaxed.

382
00:25:15.900 --> 00:25:19.259
So now she's got her hair sort of down but tied up in a plait.

383
00:25:19.319 --> 00:25:20.880
I love that look.

384
00:25:20.940 --> 00:25:22.980
That's my favourite beer for JJ.

385
00:25:23.039 --> 00:25:25.380
And even Jakotay's not wearing stupid space clothes.

386
00:25:25.440 --> 00:25:26.759
He's just got like a...

387
00:25:26.759 --> 00:25:28.500
A waistcoat.

388
00:25:28.559 --> 00:25:34.980
His is a little bit more stupid space clothes, but she's wearing something that's really mid-20th century, isn't it?

389
00:25:35.039 --> 00:25:36.359
It's beautiful.

390
00:25:36.420 --> 00:25:38.220
Why can't you tell me?

391
00:25:41.339 --> 00:25:44.160
Do you know when she leaves into him laughing?

392
00:25:44.220 --> 00:25:48.240
Yes, and that's when we get to Dr. Janeway and her reaction.

393
00:25:48.299 --> 00:25:50.400
She should be like, will you fuck off?

394
00:25:50.759 --> 00:25:52.680
We're having a moment.

395
00:25:52.740 --> 00:25:53.339
Look at that.

396
00:25:53.400 --> 00:25:54.779
How are you faring?

397
00:25:54.779 --> 00:26:00.480
And she looks him into the, like she looks right into his eyes and says we're doing quite well.

398
00:26:00.539 --> 00:26:02.279
Like, it's really good.

399
00:26:02.339 --> 00:26:03.839
Without the dialogue.

400
00:26:03.900 --> 00:26:05.940
It looks like they're about to kiss there.

401
00:26:06.000 --> 00:26:08.279
It's really interesting.

402
00:26:08.339 --> 00:26:10.380
Like there's possibilities already opening.

403
00:26:10.440 --> 00:26:12.779
But look how beautifully she's lit.

404
00:26:12.900 --> 00:26:18.660
Look at him in the background looking at her dozing on her and not saying anything.

405
00:26:19.019 --> 00:26:21.660
He's so into her, isn't he?

406
00:26:21.720 --> 00:26:22.500
Yeah, yeah.

407
00:26:22.559 --> 00:26:24.299
But from from caretaker.

408
00:26:24.359 --> 00:26:25.259
I've been seeing that look.

409
00:26:25.319 --> 00:26:28.440
And then we're up on this ship with these boring assholes.

410
00:26:28.500 --> 00:26:30.119
Let's get back. that's right.

411
00:26:30.180 --> 00:26:32.279
Back down to the planet, please.

412
00:26:32.339 --> 00:26:34.019
We want to get back to the fucking, come on.

413
00:26:34.799 --> 00:26:37.019
Who cares about these people?

414
00:26:37.079 --> 00:26:40.619
Although I wouldn't mind looking at Hogan a bit because he's got beautiful eyes, but just seeing.

415
00:26:40.740 --> 00:26:41.339
Ah, okay.

416
00:26:41.400 --> 00:26:42.000
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

417
00:26:42.059 --> 00:26:43.200
Wait until you see them.

418
00:26:43.259 --> 00:26:44.099
Shockingly blue.

419
00:26:44.400 --> 00:26:45.900
What is it?

420
00:26:45.960 --> 00:26:47.039
They're drastically blue.

421
00:26:47.099 --> 00:26:49.980
Drastic. drastic research.

422
00:26:53.039 --> 00:26:54.299
Look at her.

423
00:26:54.359 --> 00:26:55.440
Look at it.

424
00:26:55.440 --> 00:26:55.980
There we go.

425
00:26:56.039 --> 00:26:58.200
The camera's slowly going up.

426
00:26:58.319 --> 00:26:59.700
And I think we're still on location here.

427
00:26:59.759 --> 00:27:03.960
So I think act one is location and then act 2 is studio.

428
00:27:04.079 --> 00:27:06.119
Oh, no, hang on. hang on.

429
00:27:06.180 --> 00:27:07.440
Is that a location?

430
00:27:07.500 --> 00:27:08.400
No, that's a studio.

431
00:27:08.940 --> 00:27:10.799
Yeah, maybe you're right.

432
00:27:10.859 --> 00:27:11.700
Yeah, yeah, the rock.

433
00:27:11.759 --> 00:27:13.559
That's a polystone rock.

434
00:27:13.619 --> 00:27:18.599
But she, like, you just watch her face all the time.

435
00:27:18.660 --> 00:27:20.220
Look at her in the bath.

436
00:27:21.359 --> 00:27:24.000
It's wonderful, isn't it?

437
00:27:24.059 --> 00:27:28.500
I just wish that she hadn't referenced the bath in her personal log.

438
00:27:28.559 --> 00:27:32.099
Like, it's a little bit too obvious.

439
00:27:32.160 --> 00:27:38.700
We do always come back to this bath because, you know, do you never remember the scene earlier in the season, which is in the bath and then Q zap's in there with her?

440
00:27:38.759 --> 00:27:39.960
Okay.

441
00:27:40.559 --> 00:27:43.440
But look, look at this.

442
00:27:43.500 --> 00:27:47.160
I love her just talking to him while she's naked in the bath.

443
00:27:47.220 --> 00:27:50.160
Using her hands and a very...

444
00:27:50.220 --> 00:27:51.059
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

445
00:27:51.119 --> 00:27:52.440
So expressive.

446
00:27:52.799 --> 00:27:57.119
Ma, we've got such a hard on for Kate Mulgrew, don't we?

447
00:27:57.180 --> 00:27:58.259
Wonderful.

448
00:27:58.259 --> 00:27:59.039
This?

449
00:27:59.160 --> 00:28:02.400
Oh, and look, we just nearly got we got a little bit of upper tint there.

450
00:28:02.519 --> 00:28:07.500
Oh, but I think it's more seductive the way she sort of pulls her leg out at the beginning of the thing.

451
00:28:07.559 --> 00:28:08.160
Oh, yeah, yeah.

452
00:28:08.279 --> 00:28:13.619
But so she's in a towel in this scene and they're having the scene together and they're doing really well.

453
00:28:13.680 --> 00:28:15.180
She's calling for him.

454
00:28:15.240 --> 00:28:19.200
Do you know what, you know, and then she's immediately...

455
00:28:19.200 --> 00:28:22.680
But you watch...

456
00:28:22.740 --> 00:28:24.900
You you watch.

457
00:28:25.079 --> 00:28:37.019
There's a moment where she realises that she's in a towel and she's talking to Chakotay and it's not in the dialogue or anything, but there's a little reaction where she goes, oh shit, I'm here in a towel in this scene with Chakotay.

458
00:28:37.079 --> 00:28:37.980
It's really interesting.

459
00:28:38.039 --> 00:28:49.500
Because she constantly tells a story in conventions about this episode and about, she goes, I'm sorry, rabbits, but there was a monkey on the planet. far more obsessed with than your body.

460
00:28:51.480 --> 00:28:54.299
But you watch her, you watch her.

461
00:28:54.420 --> 00:28:55.140
You watch it.

462
00:28:55.200 --> 00:28:56.160
It's coming, it's coming.

463
00:28:56.220 --> 00:28:57.839
No, she sort of clutched the tail then.

464
00:28:57.900 --> 00:28:58.859
A bit embarrassed.

465
00:28:58.920 --> 00:28:59.519
No, no, no.

466
00:28:59.579 --> 00:29:02.099
She's, I don't think she's, he's given her a good look.

467
00:29:02.160 --> 00:29:02.759
Look at that.

468
00:29:02.819 --> 00:29:03.839
Look.

469
00:29:03.839 --> 00:29:06.119
Then she sort of goes, oh my god, I'm wearing a towel.

470
00:29:06.119 --> 00:29:06.539
It's me.

471
00:29:06.599 --> 00:29:10.140
Yes, and then and then look at her reaction.

472
00:29:10.619 --> 00:29:22.140
But you know, it's so interesting is that, yeah, interesting in a way this show normally isn't as well. is that he never would have gone out there unless she was in danger.

473
00:29:22.200 --> 00:29:23.579
He is the perfect gentleman.

474
00:29:23.640 --> 00:29:24.839
Oh, yeah, yeah.

475
00:29:24.900 --> 00:29:26.099
And they were just having that chat.

476
00:29:26.160 --> 00:29:27.119
It was really delightful.

477
00:29:27.180 --> 00:29:29.759
Like, they would, he was in the way they were doing his painting.

478
00:29:29.819 --> 00:29:34.140
He was never going to say to her, I'm really happy being here with you.

479
00:29:34.140 --> 00:29:36.180
And, you know, I want a romance with you.

480
00:29:36.240 --> 00:29:39.119
He waits for her to come out of her bed and go, we've got to address this.

481
00:29:39.180 --> 00:29:43.319
He never, ever forces himself on her if you will forgive the expression.

482
00:29:43.380 --> 00:29:53.339
In fact, this is as close as it gets because if the subtext is making a life for ourselves is having a relationship.

483
00:29:53.400 --> 00:30:04.859
But maybe it's not because, but there is something like he does say twice, I think, you need to start thinking about the possibility that this might not end.

484
00:30:04.920 --> 00:30:10.200
Um, Yeah, I think about the possibility.

485
00:30:10.259 --> 00:30:12.240
Oh, come on, Catherine.

486
00:30:12.299 --> 00:30:14.700
You know, like, let's just, we're going to be stuck in forever.

487
00:30:14.759 --> 00:30:15.180
That's right.

488
00:30:15.240 --> 00:30:18.839
Well, I remember both Odan and Raal and all of those people...

489
00:30:18.839 --> 00:30:20.160
You're coming with me.

490
00:30:20.220 --> 00:30:20.759
Yeah, that's right.

491
00:30:20.819 --> 00:30:22.380
Can they quit their jobs now?

492
00:30:22.440 --> 00:30:23.220
Would that be all right?

493
00:30:23.279 --> 00:30:26.819
You know, like, look how beautiful she is in that shot.

494
00:30:26.880 --> 00:30:29.279
I think he looks very pretty in this.

495
00:30:29.339 --> 00:30:30.180
I do too.

496
00:30:30.299 --> 00:30:32.279
And you see, that's the other thing too.

497
00:30:32.339 --> 00:30:44.099
And I think the thing with Chakotay, the thing that Chakotay promised was that we would have a quiet, more thoughtful, like you've had Riker.

498
00:30:44.160 --> 00:30:44.819
Do you know what I mean?

499
00:30:44.940 --> 00:30:45.839
Like he's the bloke.

500
00:30:45.900 --> 00:30:47.220
He's an all-American guy.

501
00:30:47.279 --> 00:30:49.200
Well, then we had Kira, so we went in the other direction.

502
00:30:49.319 --> 00:30:59.460
Yeah, and now we have a man who's a little bit more quiet, who works as a romantic lead because he's in touch with his feelings and he's wise.

503
00:30:59.460 --> 00:31:03.539
And some of it's a sort of cheesy and slightly embarrassing Native American thing.

504
00:31:03.599 --> 00:31:05.099
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

505
00:31:05.160 --> 00:31:09.119
Trouble is, is he's quiet later on is because I don't give him anything to do.

506
00:31:09.180 --> 00:31:13.740
No that's right. because she's being subtle and thoughtful and gentle.

507
00:31:13.799 --> 00:31:15.299
Just because he doesn't have any lines.

508
00:31:15.359 --> 00:31:18.299
We cheered in one episode, we did.

509
00:31:18.359 --> 00:31:19.859
We cheered when he got a line.

510
00:31:19.920 --> 00:31:20.819
I went, oh, wow.

511
00:31:20.880 --> 00:31:22.140
Robert Belcher.

512
00:31:22.200 --> 00:31:24.240
But it meant the same thing with Tuvark.

513
00:31:24.299 --> 00:31:27.240
I mean, he's really, really good.

514
00:31:27.299 --> 00:31:37.500
And you see, the other beat that the other Galileo 7 beat that we hit here is once Suvok decides that he's going to do what they want.

515
00:31:37.980 --> 00:31:40.920
He's absolutely all in.

516
00:31:40.980 --> 00:31:46.140
And the 1st thing he says is this is my decision and none of you are going to get in trouble for it.

517
00:31:46.200 --> 00:31:48.000
And I think all of that stuff.

518
00:31:48.059 --> 00:31:52.740
You know, the way that Spock puts himself in danger by going out to bury what's his face.

519
00:31:52.799 --> 00:31:55.440
You know, it's the same thing.

520
00:31:55.500 --> 00:31:56.460
We're doing it again.

521
00:31:56.519 --> 00:31:59.400
It's exactly the same sort of thinking.

522
00:31:59.460 --> 00:32:04.799
Yeah, do you remember when he went down on the planet in prime factors to steal the technology against the prime director?

523
00:32:04.859 --> 00:32:08.160
Because Janeway, he didn't want her to have to do it.

524
00:32:08.220 --> 00:32:09.180
Yeah.

525
00:32:09.180 --> 00:32:09.660
You know.

526
00:32:09.720 --> 00:32:12.420
He is very much accountable for his own actions.

527
00:32:12.480 --> 00:32:13.380
Yeah.

528
00:32:13.619 --> 00:32:15.420
But yes, you're right.

529
00:32:15.480 --> 00:32:17.519
Harry just can't do anger.

530
00:32:17.579 --> 00:32:19.440
And like, why can't he be upset?

531
00:32:19.500 --> 00:32:20.940
Why can't they make him be upset?

532
00:32:21.000 --> 00:32:21.839
He's a kid.

533
00:32:21.900 --> 00:32:24.000
You know, he looked up to Janeway.

534
00:32:24.059 --> 00:32:28.259
There was a real kind of, you know, like his mum is not there.

535
00:32:28.319 --> 00:32:32.279
Like all of that stuff is there and could potentially be interesting.

536
00:32:32.339 --> 00:32:34.380
They set up interesting relationships.

537
00:32:34.440 --> 00:32:39.599
Very telling, you know, that when we finally catch up with Harry Kim's mother in series four.

538
00:32:39.660 --> 00:32:42.839
Um, and she goes, why aren't you?

539
00:32:42.900 --> 00:32:43.859
why are you still an ensign?

540
00:32:43.920 --> 00:32:45.960
Right. get Captain Janeway on the phone.

541
00:32:46.019 --> 00:32:47.039
I'm going to talk to her now.

542
00:32:47.099 --> 00:32:52.019
And you're like, when we all knew it. you know, we knew you had a daughter hearing, mother.

543
00:32:52.200 --> 00:32:55.920
No wonder he, you know, was so under Jayway's for all.

544
00:32:57.359 --> 00:33:00.240
This is tantamount to mutiny, you know.

545
00:33:00.299 --> 00:33:03.539
Yeah, no, it is literally weird. watching Equinox all over again.

546
00:33:03.599 --> 00:33:05.039
Yeah.

547
00:33:05.099 --> 00:33:05.819
Yeah, yeah.

548
00:33:05.880 --> 00:33:07.559
And I don't know.

549
00:33:07.619 --> 00:33:09.599
I mean, look at home as always.

550
00:33:09.660 --> 00:33:11.640
Sorry to disrupt you, but okay, he's not.

551
00:33:11.640 --> 00:33:12.900
Okay, because this is a boring scene.

552
00:33:12.960 --> 00:33:13.859
Yeah, yeah.

553
00:33:13.920 --> 00:33:15.480
Is he a beta Zed?

554
00:33:15.539 --> 00:33:20.880
It's all that sort of... lens that they gave to Marina Service.

555
00:33:20.940 --> 00:33:22.619
I think I think it is just his eyes.

556
00:33:22.619 --> 00:33:28.079
On a complete side note, you know, I will be meeting Marina Circus next month at LLC.

557
00:33:28.200 --> 00:33:29.640
Oh, really?

558
00:33:29.700 --> 00:33:30.660
That's right.

559
00:33:30.720 --> 00:33:34.380
I'm going to ask her to do a welcome to Untitled Star Trek intro for us.

560
00:33:34.440 --> 00:33:35.759
Oh, brilliant.

561
00:33:35.819 --> 00:33:36.119
Do that.

562
00:33:36.180 --> 00:33:37.920
She'll be going.

563
00:33:37.980 --> 00:33:43.140
I'm glad that Neelix Neelix has brought vegetables to the table for this conspiracy scene.

564
00:33:43.200 --> 00:33:45.359
It's getting really into it too.

565
00:33:45.420 --> 00:33:50.160
His 2 character piece is one Easter morale offside, he's had a line about that too.

566
00:33:50.220 --> 00:33:51.539
He's the cook.

567
00:33:51.539 --> 00:33:52.799
He's got 2 vegetables in his hands.

568
00:33:52.859 --> 00:33:53.400
There you go.

569
00:33:53.460 --> 00:33:59.279
He was giving it some proper Ethan Phillips kind of excitement sitcom acting there though.

570
00:33:59.339 --> 00:34:02.460
I would have had more respect for Harry Kim.

571
00:34:02.519 --> 00:34:07.440
If he'd have broken down here and said, I just can't imagine this voyage without...

572
00:34:07.440 --> 00:34:09.719
Oh, it would have been much more interesting.

573
00:34:09.780 --> 00:34:11.039
So much more interesting.

574
00:34:11.099 --> 00:34:13.860
Oh, I do like how tube up set is lit.

575
00:34:13.920 --> 00:34:14.699
It's bedroom.

576
00:34:14.760 --> 00:34:15.119
Yeah.

577
00:34:15.119 --> 00:34:17.340
And very dark with that purple light.

578
00:34:17.400 --> 00:34:17.699
Yeah.

579
00:34:17.760 --> 00:34:21.360
They use that extremely well meld, you know, where you're sitting there in the dark.

580
00:34:21.420 --> 00:34:23.400
Try not to be a serial killer.

581
00:34:23.460 --> 00:34:24.719
Oh, okay.

582
00:34:27.119 --> 00:34:30.000
Now that's when he does some serious acting.

583
00:34:30.059 --> 00:34:31.380
Wait till we get to that one.

584
00:34:31.679 --> 00:34:40.500
So this, I mean, this is them talking about the recent events of series 2, you know, like, and...

585
00:34:41.400 --> 00:34:46.860
And it works, you know, like they do have these bargaining chips.

586
00:34:46.920 --> 00:34:49.260
We had the, what's that episode called?

587
00:34:49.320 --> 00:34:50.280
B'lana Split.

588
00:34:50.340 --> 00:34:51.539
Faces?

589
00:34:54.059 --> 00:35:05.280
Like we had that and we mentioned that here, you know, um, uh, and we, I can't remember what the other thing is, uh, but we have some hold on the Videans.

590
00:35:05.340 --> 00:35:06.000
Oh, you know.

591
00:35:06.000 --> 00:35:07.920
She's the 1st one, I think.

592
00:35:07.980 --> 00:35:10.679
Yeah, that's their 1st episode, isn't it?

593
00:35:10.739 --> 00:35:11.099
Yeah.

594
00:35:11.159 --> 00:35:11.760
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

595
00:35:11.820 --> 00:35:19.860
But I think, you know, you would be hard pressed to find a single episode in series 3 that refers to a previous episode in series three.

596
00:35:19.920 --> 00:35:21.780
They just went standalone.

597
00:35:21.840 --> 00:35:22.980
They just went moving the other week.

598
00:35:23.039 --> 00:35:23.880
And you know what?

599
00:35:24.000 --> 00:35:28.260
It's hitting me, someone from work, some of them don't, but it's has none of the substance of this.

600
00:35:28.500 --> 00:35:32.460
But you can already see the right setting in here, can't you?

601
00:35:32.519 --> 00:35:43.019
Where they have a really good romance subplot that's working very well and they sabotage it because they don't want to have any big consequences.

602
00:35:43.079 --> 00:35:45.420
And there's always this question with Voyager.

603
00:35:45.480 --> 00:35:51.719
Do you want them to do the big thing knowing that they're going to walk it back and it's not going to mean anything at the end of the episode?

604
00:35:51.780 --> 00:35:55.139
Yes, because at least we've got something. at least we get.

605
00:35:55.199 --> 00:35:55.860
Yes, exactly right.

606
00:35:55.920 --> 00:36:02.460
Or do we just do boring things that aren't going to have any effect on any characters so we can just wandering potentially for the entire years?

607
00:36:02.519 --> 00:36:04.019
We have nothing to talk about at all.

608
00:36:04.559 --> 00:36:08.880
Those moments where there's glimmers of hope, we can cling on to them.

609
00:36:08.940 --> 00:36:10.199
Yeah.

610
00:36:10.260 --> 00:36:11.039
Yeah.

611
00:36:11.219 --> 00:36:13.019
Yeah, boring.

612
00:36:13.079 --> 00:36:13.980
Let's get back to the planet.

613
00:36:14.039 --> 00:36:14.340
Come on.

614
00:36:14.400 --> 00:36:17.519
Yeah, let's get this boring, boring B plot.

615
00:36:17.579 --> 00:36:19.800
So he's doing headboards for their beds.

616
00:36:19.860 --> 00:36:20.699
Oh man.

617
00:36:20.760 --> 00:36:23.519
You know, it does remind me of my mark a bit, you know.

618
00:36:23.579 --> 00:36:26.340
It's all sort of suggest things that irritate me about the house.

619
00:36:26.340 --> 00:36:30.480
And then you'll find over the next couple of days they've been magically fixed. yeah.

620
00:36:30.539 --> 00:36:31.800
Yeah, wow.

621
00:36:32.099 --> 00:36:34.800
That's what you know, you've got...

622
00:36:34.860 --> 00:36:36.059
Look, he's noticed.

623
00:36:36.119 --> 00:36:37.019
Oh my god.

624
00:36:37.019 --> 00:36:38.460
He's and look at her dress.

625
00:36:38.519 --> 00:36:43.380
He's looking more and more like Miss Katie from Calamity Jamie in every single scene.

626
00:36:43.440 --> 00:36:45.659
That's a beautiful dress.

627
00:36:45.780 --> 00:36:48.900
I just love that they don't give her space clothes.

628
00:36:48.960 --> 00:36:50.639
Yeah, do you know what?

629
00:36:50.880 --> 00:36:54.179
Obviously, she has to wear a Starfleet uniform.

630
00:36:54.239 --> 00:36:56.699
It is a very masculine uniform, isn't it?

631
00:36:56.760 --> 00:36:58.500
It's a body suit, effectively.

632
00:36:58.559 --> 00:37:02.219
Well, it's not, though, because it you get to see the shape of her body.

633
00:37:02.280 --> 00:37:04.079
You know, she's not like wearing herself.

634
00:37:04.139 --> 00:37:06.420
She looks so much more beautiful in a dress.

635
00:37:06.480 --> 00:37:08.880
I don't want to be sexist, but she does.

636
00:37:08.940 --> 00:37:11.340
No, no, the dress is beautiful.

637
00:37:11.400 --> 00:37:14.099
Like she, I just think it's such a great choice.

638
00:37:14.159 --> 00:37:23.039
They could have, you know, made her wear a Spangly Leotard, like like Beverly and Deanna in the price.

639
00:37:23.099 --> 00:37:31.260
And it's nice to see now that Chakotay is just wearing a sort of array of shirts where he can have the button open so low that all of his chest is showing.

640
00:37:31.320 --> 00:37:32.820
Yeah, yeah.

641
00:37:32.880 --> 00:37:33.420
Look.

642
00:37:33.539 --> 00:37:35.699
I'm all man, Janeway.

643
00:37:35.760 --> 00:37:38.940
Yeah, I'm not sure about that belt, though.

644
00:37:40.800 --> 00:37:44.460
It does accentuate his time, Melissa, doesn't it?

645
00:37:44.880 --> 00:37:47.460
And he doesn't have that much of a time.

646
00:37:47.519 --> 00:37:50.400
I mean, he's such a, he's a beefy, isn't he?

647
00:37:50.940 --> 00:37:53.940
The definition of beef, I would say.

648
00:37:54.300 --> 00:37:57.840
Oh, dear, this is very studio set this.

649
00:37:57.900 --> 00:37:58.559
Oh, it's all right.

650
00:37:58.679 --> 00:38:00.539
No, no, no, but we can't see the backdrop.

651
00:38:00.599 --> 00:38:02.099
So I'm all right with it.

652
00:38:02.159 --> 00:38:03.599
Oh, no.

653
00:38:03.659 --> 00:38:11.099
Actually, this is the one bit of direction I thought was very lame when you get the, well, the sky back will drop you've got on the Zoom call right now.

654
00:38:11.880 --> 00:38:15.239
Emerging through the studio trees, you know?

655
00:38:16.380 --> 00:38:18.719
That's very Star Trek.

656
00:38:18.780 --> 00:38:25.739
And she has to, I mean, it would be a struggle for any actor to talk to a monkey and go, what's happening to the sky?

657
00:38:25.800 --> 00:38:29.880
You know, like, that's not happening. we already there?

658
00:38:29.940 --> 00:38:31.559
Oh, I thought that was this beer.

659
00:38:31.619 --> 00:38:33.000
Yeah, the monkey comes along that.

660
00:38:33.059 --> 00:38:36.360
The monkey comes along while she's checking out the storm.

661
00:38:36.420 --> 00:38:37.559
Yeah.

662
00:38:37.679 --> 00:38:44.639
But it's just, it's just that that's the point at which she says, uh, oh yeah, we're about halfway through.

663
00:38:44.699 --> 00:38:46.380
I do like this though as well.

664
00:38:46.440 --> 00:38:50.940
She's still seeking out new lives and new civilisations, even on this planet.

665
00:38:51.719 --> 00:38:59.940
Oh my god, the funniest story was Michael Pillar is like, no, we're not having a monkey in star.

666
00:39:00.000 --> 00:39:01.679
That's nowhere near exotic enough.

667
00:39:01.739 --> 00:39:06.659
And then someone on the production crew showed him a picture of this and he went, oh, it works for me. book it.

668
00:39:07.019 --> 00:39:14.579
That's why instead of having someone in a suit, which might have been the alternative, and we saw how that worked in the Galileo 7.

669
00:39:14.639 --> 00:39:16.199
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

670
00:39:16.260 --> 00:39:17.699
Or the Gumato.

671
00:39:18.599 --> 00:39:21.119
No, I mean, I think that's perfect.

672
00:39:21.179 --> 00:39:22.980
That's cute, having an actual apple.

673
00:39:23.099 --> 00:39:24.960
Can you imagine if you're a bit of man in a monkey suit?

674
00:39:25.139 --> 00:39:27.360
No, you couldn't have done it.

675
00:39:27.420 --> 00:39:29.699
If you're suggesting I get out of here.

676
00:39:29.820 --> 00:39:30.599
I agree.

677
00:39:30.659 --> 00:39:33.239
I mean this is hard stuff to deliver to yourself.

678
00:39:35.039 --> 00:39:40.079
But watch how now this is literally like a Mills and Boone book now.

679
00:39:40.139 --> 00:39:43.800
He comes through going, Catherine, through the storm.

680
00:39:43.860 --> 00:39:44.340
Oh, yeah.

681
00:39:44.340 --> 00:39:46.260
That's right.

682
00:39:47.880 --> 00:39:54.900
It's like some dreadful old woman reading a book, you know, getting all excited about the man coming to save the woman.

683
00:39:54.960 --> 00:39:57.179
But I mean, I love this.

684
00:39:57.239 --> 00:40:05.099
I mean, this, like, I like a romance, even a heterosexual romance, and this, I think, is working as a romance properly.

685
00:40:07.559 --> 00:40:13.380
Like he's got his arm around her, like he really is kind of the perfect man, I think.

686
00:40:13.500 --> 00:40:15.599
He's not pushing it.

687
00:40:15.659 --> 00:40:18.780
The astonishing thing is, you said his works as a romance, right?

688
00:40:18.840 --> 00:40:19.079
Yeah.

689
00:40:19.139 --> 00:40:22.559
What are the 2 reasons that romance in Star Trek usually don't work?

690
00:40:22.619 --> 00:40:27.239
The writing and the performance. and they're both right and they're getting both right here.

691
00:40:27.300 --> 00:40:29.219
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

692
00:40:29.280 --> 00:40:29.699
Yeah.

693
00:40:29.760 --> 00:40:31.199
I think so.

694
00:40:31.260 --> 00:40:35.820
But also, like the writing in the sense of the men are always just fucking horrible.

695
00:40:35.880 --> 00:40:42.960
And we haven't had one of the romances in Star Trek, the Next Generation, where it's a male regular with a female guest star.

696
00:40:43.019 --> 00:40:44.519
It's always been the other way around.

697
00:40:44.579 --> 00:40:46.920
Do you remember when they tried it with Cisco?

698
00:40:46.920 --> 00:40:53.039
Just for a 2nd where Gastier says, she's thinking of moving on the station and he goes, oh, it's a big step.

699
00:40:53.099 --> 00:40:56.099
And she goes, oh, what's that supposed to mean?

700
00:40:56.159 --> 00:41:00.420
She goes, she goes, you're afraid of commitment, you are.

701
00:41:00.539 --> 00:41:03.300
She totally calls him out straight away.

702
00:41:03.360 --> 00:41:05.820
And then they put pay to that very quickly.

703
00:41:05.880 --> 00:41:10.619
So can we talk about how kind of shit this scene is?

704
00:41:12.719 --> 00:41:16.139
But she comes into the door.

705
00:41:16.199 --> 00:41:18.599
She comes in and says, oh, hi, Tuvok.

706
00:41:18.659 --> 00:41:20.579
I just wanted to talk to you about my father.

707
00:41:20.639 --> 00:41:21.900
You go, really?

708
00:41:22.079 --> 00:41:24.719
I'm running the ship, woman.

709
00:41:24.780 --> 00:41:25.139
Come on.

710
00:41:25.199 --> 00:41:26.699
That's it.

711
00:41:26.760 --> 00:41:29.340
Why are we having a conversation about your father?

712
00:41:29.579 --> 00:41:31.019
Why don't you wait for one of those subtets?

713
00:41:31.079 --> 00:41:36.059
When I'm in Neelix's restaurant playing my game, that would be the perfect one.

714
00:41:36.659 --> 00:41:38.340
Calto.

715
00:41:38.400 --> 00:41:44.639
But I like the fact that they have an established, almost like a parental child relationship.

716
00:41:44.699 --> 00:41:48.599
And she is kind of exploiting that to get her point across.

717
00:41:49.260 --> 00:41:57.840
Not in any sort of insidious way, but like, She's like, you know, you need to understand, this is the effect it's having on people.

718
00:41:57.900 --> 00:42:00.000
I'm not sure we'll be able to come back from this.

719
00:42:00.780 --> 00:42:19.079
But, I mean, I'm just never convinced by any of this, and I think it's partly that Tuvok doesn't sell his position very strongly, you know, like, and they're all going, oh, we're we human beings with real feelings and stuff and...

720
00:42:19.079 --> 00:42:21.000
It just feels like he's sticking his heels in.

721
00:42:21.059 --> 00:42:21.960
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

722
00:42:22.199 --> 00:42:22.739
Yeah.

723
00:42:22.800 --> 00:42:27.239
Like, and look, they've shoved Neelix to the front in case there's any trouble.

724
00:42:27.300 --> 00:42:29.340
Why is he covering his stomach?

725
00:42:29.400 --> 00:42:30.119
Like that.

726
00:42:30.179 --> 00:42:31.320
Why is he standing like that?

727
00:42:31.980 --> 00:42:36.059
I'm not sure what my tailor's done this week, but I'm going to hold my hands here.

728
00:42:36.780 --> 00:42:39.119
Oh dear, oh dear.

729
00:42:39.179 --> 00:42:40.500
How many people are on the bridge?

730
00:42:40.559 --> 00:42:41.519
Let's have a look.

731
00:42:41.579 --> 00:42:44.280
Yeah, there's quite a few extras in some of these scenes.

732
00:42:44.340 --> 00:42:45.780
There are a lot of people...

733
00:42:45.780 --> 00:42:48.000
Black lady there in the middle.

734
00:42:48.059 --> 00:42:49.800
She's in quite a few Voyager episodes.

735
00:42:49.860 --> 00:42:53.340
I seem to remember her face propping up in a lot of gorgeous.

736
00:42:53.400 --> 00:42:53.639
Yeah.

737
00:42:53.699 --> 00:42:55.139
So I think they were sort of cool.

738
00:42:55.199 --> 00:42:56.099
I mean it was a good idea.

739
00:42:56.159 --> 00:42:58.199
Call on the same act as one given work too.

740
00:42:58.260 --> 00:43:00.599
It's supposed to be the same people on the ship.

741
00:43:02.219 --> 00:43:04.079
Yeah, yeah.

742
00:43:04.199 --> 00:43:07.019
There's an Asian woman right at the back of the set.

743
00:43:07.079 --> 00:43:09.179
I'm not sure what she's doing.

744
00:43:09.239 --> 00:43:10.079
Did you see her there?

745
00:43:10.199 --> 00:43:12.119
She was sort of leaning against the console.

746
00:43:12.179 --> 00:43:14.280
Well, she might have some buttons to press back there.

747
00:43:14.340 --> 00:43:16.019
She's pressing them now.

748
00:43:16.079 --> 00:43:16.500
Well done.

749
00:43:19.559 --> 00:43:30.840
And now that they're now that they're actually doing the action, now that this part of the plot, which I thought didn't really quite work is over, then I think that the scenes on the ship are actually pretty good.

750
00:43:30.960 --> 00:43:32.280
Don't you?

751
00:43:32.340 --> 00:43:37.260
Like, I think that they managed to do a bit of Voyager action and stuff in a sort of...

752
00:43:37.260 --> 00:43:41.699
Yeah, I think she was... as a very competent captain in those bits.

753
00:43:41.760 --> 00:43:43.860
In fact, I was getting Saru vibes from him.

754
00:43:44.039 --> 00:43:46.739
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

755
00:43:46.800 --> 00:43:48.960
Oh, Janeway's appalled.

756
00:43:49.019 --> 00:43:51.059
All of her scientific equipment's being smashed.

757
00:43:51.119 --> 00:43:55.199
We had to get to a position where she couldn't experiment anymore, though, didn't we?

758
00:43:55.260 --> 00:43:55.619
Yeah.

759
00:43:55.679 --> 00:43:58.320
But he was holding her.

760
00:43:58.380 --> 00:43:59.219
Do you know what I mean?

761
00:43:59.280 --> 00:44:00.900
without being a creep again.

762
00:44:00.960 --> 00:44:10.079
They were together under the table and it, you know, trying to write out the storm together and he had his arms around her, but in an absolutely non-greepy way.

763
00:44:10.139 --> 00:44:14.280
You should notice that camera sweep over the cabin there and then fall round to the door.

764
00:44:14.519 --> 00:44:19.679
I know I point these things out in on these strokes when this direction is a bit more interesting.

765
00:44:19.739 --> 00:44:21.179
Oh I love this.

766
00:44:21.239 --> 00:44:23.039
Oh, she's so sad.

767
00:44:23.099 --> 00:44:24.420
She's really sad, isn't she?

768
00:44:25.860 --> 00:44:28.260
None of it's salvageable.

769
00:44:28.739 --> 00:44:31.980
And she sort of breaks her voice a little bit.

770
00:44:32.039 --> 00:44:33.420
Yes, I know, it's wonderful.

771
00:44:33.480 --> 00:44:37.260
Which is normally sort of so steadfast, I'm sure.

772
00:44:37.500 --> 00:44:39.420
But look at this.

773
00:44:39.480 --> 00:44:39.840
Look.

774
00:44:42.960 --> 00:44:44.760
And look, just a moment.

775
00:44:44.820 --> 00:44:49.559
There's a little moment where her forehead crinkles and there's sort of there's sadness there.

776
00:44:49.619 --> 00:44:51.599
Like she's not being bitchy.

777
00:44:51.659 --> 00:44:53.159
She's being. do you know what I mean?

778
00:44:53.219 --> 00:44:55.980
It's not like, oh, I guess that's one way of not, do you know what I mean?

779
00:44:56.039 --> 00:44:57.900
It's like, she's really properly saying.

780
00:44:57.960 --> 00:45:04.920
She thinks she's so good as we are exploring Voyager. on Star Trek Project.

781
00:45:04.980 --> 00:45:08.519
She is the best thing about this show.

782
00:45:08.579 --> 00:45:11.579
I think Jerry Ryan's a 2nd and she's quite close.

783
00:45:11.639 --> 00:45:12.780
Ryan's very good.

784
00:45:12.840 --> 00:45:18.900
But I think Mulgrew's there for the 7 years and, you know, despite some very inconsistent writing.

785
00:45:18.960 --> 00:45:21.960
I mean, we did Xbox a couple of weeks ago where she didn't know what she was doing.

786
00:45:22.380 --> 00:45:24.900
She still managed to deliver it though.

787
00:45:25.019 --> 00:45:26.820
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

788
00:45:26.880 --> 00:45:28.980
No, she's fabulously interesting to watch.

789
00:45:29.039 --> 00:45:29.760
She's really good.

790
00:45:29.820 --> 00:45:34.380
To show that she's a woman, she's got sort of all the scabby makeup on.

791
00:45:34.440 --> 00:45:36.000
But she's got a little bit of hair at the back.

792
00:45:38.579 --> 00:45:41.159
A touch of femininity about her.

793
00:45:41.219 --> 00:45:43.559
No, she's a she's a hot Videan.

794
00:45:43.619 --> 00:45:44.699
Oh, is she?

795
00:45:44.760 --> 00:45:46.019
Yeah, yeah.

796
00:45:46.079 --> 00:45:47.340
That's as hard as I care.

797
00:45:47.400 --> 00:45:49.619
I'll do pretty well there, then, wouldn't I?

798
00:45:49.679 --> 00:45:50.820
That's it.

799
00:45:51.059 --> 00:45:53.400
We'd have our pick of the man.

800
00:45:56.579 --> 00:46:00.539
No, they'll be, oh, there's up for our hearts and minds.

801
00:46:03.599 --> 00:46:05.519
Oh, this was a day.

802
00:46:06.480 --> 00:46:08.280
That's it right.

803
00:46:08.340 --> 00:46:09.239
So she's getting in now.

804
00:46:09.300 --> 00:46:10.199
She getting her hands doing it.

805
00:46:10.260 --> 00:46:11.639
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right.

806
00:46:11.699 --> 00:46:14.699
She's got to see her being physical because in a minute she needs a massage.

807
00:46:14.760 --> 00:46:21.179
And the other thing which I think is like super hilarious is that what is it?

808
00:46:21.300 --> 00:46:29.039
Chakotay's parents made him build a log cabin because they thought that he should learn how to do log cabins.

809
00:46:29.099 --> 00:46:34.320
And her parents said that she should do gardening because they thought she should be able to do gardening.

810
00:46:34.440 --> 00:46:37.320
And you kind of go, whose parents behave like that?

811
00:46:37.380 --> 00:46:38.880
What's happening?

812
00:46:38.940 --> 00:46:41.880
But the line where she says I was always a child of the 24th century.

813
00:46:41.940 --> 00:46:44.940
I love the camping trip.

814
00:46:45.900 --> 00:46:47.820
His background is nature, isn't it?

815
00:46:47.880 --> 00:46:49.860
So that contrast is lovely.

816
00:46:49.920 --> 00:46:52.079
But look at his reaction.

817
00:46:52.139 --> 00:46:53.639
Look at his reaction.

818
00:46:53.639 --> 00:46:54.900
And look at her.

819
00:46:55.019 --> 00:46:55.920
She's stricken.

820
00:46:55.980 --> 00:47:00.539
Like when he says, this is the 1st time you've said anything positive about living here.

821
00:47:00.539 --> 00:47:04.500
And the look on her face where she goes, oh my god, have I been like that?

822
00:47:04.559 --> 00:47:05.579
Do you know what I mean?

823
00:47:05.639 --> 00:47:08.219
Like it's, it's not in the script. so thoughtful.

824
00:47:08.280 --> 00:47:09.960
She's it's pretty...

825
00:47:10.079 --> 00:47:14.219
From this point on, she just behaves as if they are going to stay here.

826
00:47:14.280 --> 00:47:16.860
So she's relaxed into the environment.

827
00:47:16.920 --> 00:47:17.940
Yeah, yeah.

828
00:47:18.000 --> 00:47:21.119
And she's not sold on the relationship either.

829
00:47:21.179 --> 00:47:22.079
Do you know what I mean?

830
00:47:22.139 --> 00:47:23.400
Like, like...

831
00:47:23.400 --> 00:47:24.719
I love it. wishing that happens.

832
00:47:24.780 --> 00:47:28.860
Slumped over the desk going, oh, my nuts have gotten nuts.

833
00:47:29.699 --> 00:47:31.199
And she's laughing, though?

834
00:47:31.260 --> 00:47:33.239
Like she's laughing at herself.

835
00:47:33.300 --> 00:47:39.840
You know, it does show you, actually, how this can work, because do you remember when we saw this previously in Looking for Pamak and all the wrong praises when...

836
00:47:39.840 --> 00:47:40.380
Look at her look.

837
00:47:40.380 --> 00:47:43.199
O'Brien was giving Kira a massage.

838
00:47:43.260 --> 00:47:43.739
Do remember that?

839
00:47:43.800 --> 00:47:47.219
Yeah, yeah, yeah And we went and we just went, ooh, ooh.

840
00:47:47.280 --> 00:47:48.059
Where was this time?

841
00:47:48.119 --> 00:47:49.199
It's working.

842
00:47:49.199 --> 00:47:51.119
It works as a sexy massage.

843
00:47:52.019 --> 00:47:54.960
Have you ever had that moment in your life, you know?

844
00:47:55.019 --> 00:47:59.219
I did my one of my friend's husbands gave me a massage.

845
00:47:59.280 --> 00:48:00.960
This is going back 15 years or so now.

846
00:48:00.960 --> 00:48:05.699
And we had a moment and we never spoke about it ever.

847
00:48:07.619 --> 00:48:09.960
He was massaging me.

848
00:48:10.019 --> 00:48:10.860
I was really enjoying it.

849
00:48:10.920 --> 00:48:13.199
He paused and then that was that.

850
00:48:13.260 --> 00:48:14.639
I was like, okay, yeah, the stuff.

851
00:48:14.699 --> 00:48:21.960
Look at how he grabs her hair and just moves it out of the way. in that tender way and her reaction to it as well.

852
00:48:22.019 --> 00:48:23.760
I think that's beautiful.

853
00:48:23.820 --> 00:48:27.119
As far as 90s, Trek goes, this is sex. basically.

854
00:48:27.239 --> 00:48:29.880
No, because I don't think they have sex yet.

855
00:48:29.940 --> 00:48:33.300
I think there's a very clear point in the episode where they're supposed to have sex.

856
00:48:33.360 --> 00:48:37.980
I think that this is Chakotay, his one faux pas in this relationship.

857
00:48:38.099 --> 00:48:39.059
What about his mother?

858
00:48:39.059 --> 00:48:44.820
Talking about his mother while he's massaging it. just like, please, you know, where did that end up?

859
00:48:44.880 --> 00:48:46.440
I know, I know.

860
00:48:46.500 --> 00:48:50.219
But look at that. loving it, look.

861
00:48:50.280 --> 00:48:51.420
Yeah, yeah.

862
00:48:51.480 --> 00:48:54.900
But look at her like she realises as well.

863
00:48:56.699 --> 00:49:03.300
I actually really like when how she says, like the, I've got to go to bed.

864
00:49:03.360 --> 00:49:09.539
Like in the awkwardness of this, and then I'm going to bed now, and then she pulls the sort of face.

865
00:49:09.599 --> 00:49:10.199
Do you know what I mean?

866
00:49:10.260 --> 00:49:14.579
She pulled that sort of slight funny face because this is really awkward and I'm acknowledging it as well.

867
00:49:14.639 --> 00:49:19.320
Like, she's thinking and the smile, the little grateful smile.

868
00:49:19.380 --> 00:49:20.760
It's really good.

869
00:49:20.820 --> 00:49:29.880
And it could be icky and it could be awkward. to watch, but it's not because they're they're so awkwardness as well.

870
00:49:29.940 --> 00:49:30.659
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

871
00:49:30.719 --> 00:49:34.019
I mean, he refuses to make it awkward and she refuses to make it awkward.

872
00:49:34.079 --> 00:49:36.059
They both like, okay, we've had a moment.

873
00:49:36.119 --> 00:49:37.079
I'm not going to be it.

874
00:49:37.139 --> 00:49:38.159
It's going to be okay.

875
00:49:38.219 --> 00:49:39.059
Yeah.

876
00:49:39.480 --> 00:49:41.519
It's really good.

877
00:49:41.579 --> 00:49:44.699
She's really properly thinking about how to perform this.

878
00:49:44.760 --> 00:49:45.659
It's tremendous.

879
00:49:45.719 --> 00:49:47.579
I love as well. like we don't cut to the morning.

880
00:49:47.639 --> 00:49:54.480
She's clearly sat there in bed for maybe 10, 15 minutes and then she gets up whilst he's still working on the same thing and says, look, we've got to talk about this.

881
00:49:54.539 --> 00:49:55.860
Yeah, yeah.

882
00:49:55.920 --> 00:50:03.179
Or sorry, we've got to define some parameters. to our relationship. look at that.

883
00:50:03.239 --> 00:50:09.239
He looks over, she's in a semi-transparent cubicle. in the bed bizarrely.

884
00:50:09.300 --> 00:50:11.159
Then we can't back to the ship.

885
00:50:11.219 --> 00:50:12.300
It really is.

886
00:50:12.420 --> 00:50:13.139
The scene coming up.

887
00:50:13.199 --> 00:50:17.820
It really is one of those things that sort of transcends the show that it's from.

888
00:50:17.880 --> 00:50:23.280
Because it's so atypical for the show. in that it's incredibly good.

889
00:50:24.659 --> 00:50:27.599
Very unusual for Voyager.

890
00:50:27.659 --> 00:50:32.219
Oh, no, but here we are back on the bridge talking about coordinates and things.

891
00:50:32.280 --> 00:50:34.079
So, you know, but they...

892
00:50:34.199 --> 00:50:46.079
The good thing about this, I think, is that Tuvok was right, you know, and even there's that thing, let's spend the next so many hours doing battle drills before they arrive.

893
00:50:46.199 --> 00:50:50.159
Yeah, she comes back out and says, we've got to talk about this.

894
00:50:50.219 --> 00:50:51.420
What are we going to do?

895
00:50:51.599 --> 00:50:55.079
I'm not sure that nice, he's very flattering on her there.

896
00:50:55.139 --> 00:50:57.179
No, and it's not as nice.

897
00:50:57.179 --> 00:50:58.139
Very buttoned up, isn't it?

898
00:50:58.199 --> 00:51:00.059
What sort of things they wear in the handmaid's tail.

899
00:51:00.539 --> 00:51:08.639
It's funny that he's very sort of calculated and parameters and she's a scientist.

900
00:51:08.699 --> 00:51:12.360
We're going to define some parameters and he says, no, I'm going to tell you a story.

901
00:51:12.420 --> 00:51:16.739
And the story, like, I love the story.

902
00:51:16.800 --> 00:51:19.739
She does deem to look very interested in the story.

903
00:51:19.800 --> 00:51:23.880
But the great thing is, this is this is like a cheesy beat.

904
00:51:23.940 --> 00:51:32.699
And of course, in retrospect, knowing that he's not in any way Native American and no one involved is pretty much makes it a bit awful.

905
00:51:32.880 --> 00:51:50.579
But the way that he characterises himself, like the thing where he says, I found peace by putting you 1st, by making my centring my world around you and doing everything I can to support you.

906
00:51:50.639 --> 00:51:52.320
And that's as sexy as hell.

907
00:51:52.380 --> 00:51:54.420
He's absolutely the same, isn't he?

908
00:51:54.480 --> 00:51:56.579
That I would rather be here than on that ship.

909
00:51:57.000 --> 00:52:12.900
Either way, but he is also saying that you are someone who has been so important to me and I've looked, and this, the woman warrior was brave and beautiful and she was wise, but we're not looking at Chakotay telling the story to Jane.

910
00:52:12.960 --> 00:52:13.619
We're looking at her.

911
00:52:13.739 --> 00:52:19.739
And so when he's talking about himself, Singer puts the camera on Chakotay and when he's talking about her.

912
00:52:19.860 --> 00:52:23.099
And you know, because...

913
00:52:23.099 --> 00:52:26.519
Because Beltran knows it's a load of bullshit, he's saying, just to express his feelings.

914
00:52:26.579 --> 00:52:29.159
He actually can deliver it with some honesty.

915
00:52:29.460 --> 00:52:35.340
The other thing, which I think is great though, is look at her reaction.

916
00:52:35.400 --> 00:52:36.659
Look at her.

917
00:52:36.719 --> 00:52:39.900
She knows Star Trek does subtext so badly.

918
00:52:39.960 --> 00:52:47.039
And she just laughs and smiles and is so stunningly beautiful in that moment.

919
00:52:47.099 --> 00:52:49.559
That's not really a story, is it?

920
00:52:49.619 --> 00:52:53.519
That's not really an ancient legend, and she's so delighted.

921
00:52:53.579 --> 00:52:57.539
It's beautiful and they have sex.

922
00:52:59.340 --> 00:53:01.559
That's such a great line.

923
00:53:01.619 --> 00:53:02.940
That's such a great line.

924
00:53:03.000 --> 00:53:06.420
But that's the best we can do because this is Star Trek.

925
00:53:06.480 --> 00:53:07.559
We just have them holding hands.

926
00:53:07.679 --> 00:53:08.760
I don't know, though.

927
00:53:08.820 --> 00:53:13.260
Sometimes I think implication is sexier than actually seeing it. sometimes.

928
00:53:13.320 --> 00:53:15.360
No, but it's not even implied.

929
00:53:15.420 --> 00:53:17.760
I think this is the cat being cowardly.

930
00:53:17.820 --> 00:53:20.699
I don't think they're implying it just by holding hands.

931
00:53:20.760 --> 00:53:22.320
And then they're relaxed.

932
00:53:22.380 --> 00:53:24.719
They needed to do a proper job of that.

933
00:53:24.719 --> 00:53:26.519
And that's...

934
00:53:26.519 --> 00:53:29.880
Coming out of the mouth was far more sexy than how do I see that?

935
00:53:30.960 --> 00:53:33.360
Oh, that's such a great moment.

936
00:53:33.659 --> 00:53:38.099
I remember watching that for the 1st time and like sitting up in my chair.

937
00:53:38.159 --> 00:53:40.920
I teared up watching it even today.

938
00:53:40.980 --> 00:53:43.019
You got to remember I knew it was coming.

939
00:53:43.139 --> 00:53:45.239
I didn't have the rest of Voyager.

940
00:53:45.300 --> 00:53:46.559
I didn't know where this show was going.

941
00:53:46.619 --> 00:53:51.900
I thought they were going to have a romance between the captain and the 1st officer because that's what this episode's employing.

942
00:53:51.960 --> 00:53:52.980
Yeah.

943
00:53:52.980 --> 00:53:55.679
So I was really...

944
00:53:55.739 --> 00:53:56.820
That would have been great.

945
00:53:56.880 --> 00:53:57.960
Yeah.

946
00:53:58.019 --> 00:54:03.059
Yeah, well, we had Michael and and book in Discovery.

947
00:54:03.119 --> 00:54:06.420
I mean, he, you know, oh, here we go.

948
00:54:06.480 --> 00:54:07.019
What's her name?

949
00:54:07.079 --> 00:54:07.619
And then, you know what?

950
00:54:08.099 --> 00:54:11.340
there, been a lot of imagining if we did that that we've covered.

951
00:54:11.400 --> 00:54:12.000
Yeah, yeah.

952
00:54:12.000 --> 00:54:13.380
Star Trek project.

953
00:54:13.440 --> 00:54:14.940
Oh here we go.

954
00:54:15.059 --> 00:54:18.239
We need to have our standard sort of battle scene here.

955
00:54:18.480 --> 00:54:34.380
But again, I think what makes the battle scene work really well is Tuvok saying what we're going to do, and it's partly because we, we sort of do see it, but it just makes him seem supremely competent at this.

956
00:54:34.440 --> 00:54:37.559
And I guess he's a tactical officer and that kind of works as well.

957
00:54:37.679 --> 00:54:46.739
But also, it means that Janeway was right to tell them not to contact the Vadeans and Jeeva was right to because it was always going to end up in conflict. exactly right Yeah, yeah, yeah.

958
00:54:46.800 --> 00:54:47.280
Yeah.

959
00:54:47.460 --> 00:54:49.380
Schmalis.

960
00:54:49.440 --> 00:54:52.800
Yeah, that's the her uncle, remember?

961
00:54:52.860 --> 00:54:56.039
Or something that she gives him that name in life signs or something?

962
00:54:56.099 --> 00:54:58.260
We're going to have one more scene.

963
00:54:58.320 --> 00:55:03.000
Of this beautiful relationship between Janeway and Shakotay.

964
00:55:03.059 --> 00:55:07.199
So please let's enjoy the moment because I don't think we're ever going to have it again on this podcast.

965
00:55:07.260 --> 00:55:08.639
No, no.

966
00:55:10.440 --> 00:55:12.840
Let's celebrate the day.

967
00:55:12.900 --> 00:55:25.500
And also, like, I was actually relieved that there wasn't some bullshit reason why he wasn't going to do that, where he's going to say, no, we can't possibly lower the shields, and it's just like, no, that's why you came here for, for fuck's sake, lower the shields.

968
00:55:25.559 --> 00:55:26.280
And it's not.

969
00:55:26.340 --> 00:55:27.599
He's super sensible.

970
00:55:27.659 --> 00:55:34.320
He, you know, he gives a big speech about what's going to happen and there's a lot of moving parts to it and all of that.

971
00:55:34.380 --> 00:55:35.099
I think it's really good.

972
00:55:35.159 --> 00:55:39.900
Do you remember I said to you earlier about Chakotay being like my mark?

973
00:55:39.960 --> 00:55:41.099
Now, this sounds like him.

974
00:55:41.159 --> 00:55:41.639
Right.

975
00:55:41.699 --> 00:55:44.099
Here is the series of events that will occur.

976
00:55:46.019 --> 00:55:48.719
Some men just think that way, don't they?

977
00:55:49.260 --> 00:55:52.019
Very linear, very consecutive.

978
00:55:52.079 --> 00:56:00.719
Oh, we got an eye, sir, from Harry, which was a sincere eye, sir, rather than his pissy petular dice, sir, from before.

979
00:56:00.840 --> 00:56:03.840
This is why he's still an ensign in series 7, you know.

980
00:56:03.900 --> 00:56:05.639
Yeah, yeah, that's right.

981
00:56:06.119 --> 00:56:11.940
God knows why uh, on Paris keeps getting promoted and demoted.

982
00:56:12.000 --> 00:56:14.039
He knows what that keeps the worst of it.

983
00:56:14.099 --> 00:56:15.599
Yeah, I can say.

984
00:56:15.659 --> 00:56:19.739
But this is, like you said, this is great because we've established a relationship with the Vidians.

985
00:56:19.800 --> 00:56:25.320
It means that this climax of them getting the medicine.

986
00:56:25.380 --> 00:56:30.360
It's not light. conclusions are usually pretty lame, you know?

987
00:56:30.420 --> 00:56:32.219
Yeah, yeah, I think it works really well.

988
00:56:32.280 --> 00:56:33.300
I think it works.

989
00:56:33.780 --> 00:56:36.059
Set a course for the planet.

990
00:56:36.119 --> 00:56:37.980
Warp four.

991
00:56:37.980 --> 00:56:38.880
Whoop six.

992
00:56:38.940 --> 00:56:39.239
Come on.

993
00:56:39.300 --> 00:56:41.099
Jerry Taylor is scriptwriting this.

994
00:56:41.159 --> 00:56:43.139
Why isn't she seeing how much this is working?

995
00:56:43.199 --> 00:56:45.179
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

996
00:56:46.019 --> 00:56:49.139
I mean, I'll say one thing for Jerry Tango.

997
00:56:49.199 --> 00:56:52.559
She knows how to write Janeway brilliantly.

998
00:56:52.619 --> 00:56:57.420
Like, she devised the character pretty much, I think, about 80% of the character.

999
00:56:57.480 --> 00:56:59.460
So she knows J.W. inside out back to front.

1000
00:56:59.519 --> 00:57:02.579
The science thing, I think, is a genius thing.

1001
00:57:02.639 --> 00:57:06.900
By this point, she knows how to write mole group because she's been playing the role for 2 years.

1002
00:57:06.960 --> 00:57:07.980
Yeah.

1003
00:57:08.039 --> 00:57:10.739
I mean, Jangway is now spread equal on the floor.

1004
00:57:10.800 --> 00:57:12.000
She's clearly had some fun.

1005
00:57:12.119 --> 00:57:21.780
But, but no, because they're not as physically easy with one another as you would normally want them to be in a scene if you wanted to establish that they had sex.

1006
00:57:21.840 --> 00:57:23.519
And I think that they're pulling back from it.

1007
00:57:24.179 --> 00:57:27.239
Well, they're trying to make maybe have their cake and eat it.

1008
00:57:27.300 --> 00:57:30.539
So those that want it, say yes, those that don't.

1009
00:57:30.599 --> 00:57:31.320
No, that's right.

1010
00:57:31.380 --> 00:57:33.780
But I think that they really needed to properly do it.

1011
00:57:34.380 --> 00:57:44.760
And that makes this that makes this much more heartbreaking because all of the, like anything interesting about this, they throw out the window.

1012
00:57:44.820 --> 00:57:56.519
If she has given away this relationship with this beautiful, considerate man, you know, who worships the ground she walks on and is making her happy and relaxed.

1013
00:57:56.579 --> 00:57:57.960
Do you know what I mean?

1014
00:57:58.019 --> 00:58:05.219
There's a little bit of it, but, and, and it, but, it breaks down because the show is back and they just now have to be their jobs again.

1015
00:58:05.280 --> 00:58:07.739
But we don't even do that.

1016
00:58:07.800 --> 00:58:09.360
We don't do any of that.

1017
00:58:09.420 --> 00:58:12.480
I'd rather watch another 5 seasons of this or down on the planet.

1018
00:58:12.539 --> 00:58:13.559
Yeah, kind of would.

1019
00:58:13.619 --> 00:58:16.800
The bathtub, we couldn't fit the bathtub on the boat.

1020
00:58:16.860 --> 00:58:17.579
Look at them.

1021
00:58:17.639 --> 00:58:19.199
Do you hear that?

1022
00:58:19.260 --> 00:58:19.679
Oh no.

1023
00:58:19.739 --> 00:58:21.780
And then watch their body language.

1024
00:58:21.780 --> 00:58:22.619
Pretend we're out.

1025
00:58:22.739 --> 00:58:23.760
Yeah.

1026
00:58:26.820 --> 00:58:28.860
So what's that?

1027
00:58:30.719 --> 00:58:33.659
No, they're on the next planet along.

1028
00:58:33.719 --> 00:58:34.679
Go and check that one out.

1029
00:58:37.139 --> 00:58:43.320
Oh, and they they are sort of giving each other looks in this scene as well.

1030
00:58:43.380 --> 00:58:44.219
Yeah, that's it.

1031
00:58:44.280 --> 00:58:46.559
She's going to look up at him in a minute, isn't she?

1032
00:58:47.519 --> 00:58:50.159
Yes, look at her.

1033
00:58:50.219 --> 00:58:51.719
And look at that reaction.

1034
00:58:51.780 --> 00:58:53.880
We can't match it.

1035
00:58:54.000 --> 00:59:03.059
We can't like that smile, this shot where she's looking at the tomato she was just planting, and then look how bereft she looks.

1036
00:59:03.119 --> 00:59:05.519
Like how unhappy she is about leaving.

1037
00:59:05.579 --> 00:59:09.300
And she's looking at the tomato she was planning in the previous scene.

1038
00:59:09.360 --> 00:59:11.760
That is unbelievable, you know.

1039
00:59:11.820 --> 00:59:15.900
That the worst enemy of this episode is Star Trek Voyager the series.

1040
00:59:15.960 --> 00:59:16.800
Yeah, yeah.

1041
00:59:16.800 --> 00:59:18.780
Coming along to the spoiler relationship.

1042
00:59:19.380 --> 00:59:20.280
That's right.

1043
00:59:21.239 --> 00:59:23.039
Oh dear.

1044
00:59:23.099 --> 00:59:27.840
I love how she says feel free to use the house. to a monkey.

1045
00:59:29.159 --> 00:59:34.019
That monkey who's probably long, long gone now has been immortalised in this episode.

1046
00:59:34.860 --> 00:59:39.420
He must have wondered what the hell was going on, actually, in his studio.

1047
00:59:40.980 --> 00:59:47.519
So they just stand facing each other and they look and we can't do anything because this is Voyager.

1048
00:59:47.579 --> 00:59:49.980
Now in fact, now they look awkward.

1049
00:59:50.699 --> 00:59:54.780
They'll treat sort of like hunched together with his arms clasped.

1050
00:59:54.840 --> 00:59:59.820
Well, yeah, yeah. just sit down and there's no acknowledgement of anything.

1051
00:59:59.880 --> 01:00:03.960
They sit down on the bridge and they just do an eye contact with one another.

1052
01:00:04.260 --> 01:00:06.239
They don't make eye contact.

1053
01:00:06.239 --> 01:00:06.719
Fuck.

1054
01:00:06.780 --> 01:00:10.920
But no, but that should be heartbreaking.

1055
01:00:10.980 --> 01:00:11.940
Do you know what I mean?

1056
01:00:12.000 --> 01:00:13.739
That should break our hearts.

1057
01:00:13.800 --> 01:00:15.900
It's just annoying. weird.

1058
01:00:15.960 --> 01:00:17.579
Yeah, yeah.

1059
01:00:17.639 --> 01:00:24.119
Because they haven't had sex because we can't really feel what they've lost because we won't acknowledge what they've lost.

1060
01:00:24.179 --> 01:00:29.039
And because they can't write a scene where we talk about it like grown-ups or anything like that.

1061
01:00:29.099 --> 01:00:34.320
Like, look, she's weirdly not talking to him, like even not looking at him.

1062
01:00:34.380 --> 01:00:36.840
Like and she normally doesn't, does she?

1063
01:00:36.900 --> 01:00:40.320
She's normally delivering her speeches to the screen and stuff.

1064
01:00:40.380 --> 01:00:42.360
She can be very wrong in the same direction.

1065
01:00:42.960 --> 01:00:44.340
Yes.

1066
01:00:44.340 --> 01:00:46.139
And then that's it, then it ends.

1067
01:00:46.199 --> 01:00:48.119
I'd have more respect for Jerry Tiger.

1068
01:00:48.179 --> 01:00:51.420
She had written that they give each other a sly look, you know, across the bridge.

1069
01:00:51.480 --> 01:00:52.320
Yeah, yeah.

1070
01:00:53.280 --> 01:00:56.400
What if they'd sneaked around for a few episodes?

1071
01:00:56.460 --> 01:01:01.860
Do you remember when Bashir and Ezri finally have it off in what you leave behind?

1072
01:01:01.860 --> 01:01:09.719
And then they're in that battle and they look across the bridge and we have a scene where they just look across the bridge at each other like, I hope we get out of this alive because I want to have sex with you.

1073
01:01:12.539 --> 01:01:15.300
Yeah, such a weird...

1074
01:01:15.900 --> 01:01:17.280
Yeah.

1075
01:01:17.340 --> 01:01:30.300
Like it fails in the usual voyage away by not wanting to commit to anything that's implied by the episode and by being reluctant to take interesting things further.

1076
01:01:30.360 --> 01:01:35.820
But what we get to be grateful for, I think, is maybe one of Kate's best performances.

1077
01:01:35.940 --> 01:01:38.039
As an hour of Star Trek.

1078
01:01:38.099 --> 01:01:40.139
It's so enjoyable to watch.

1079
01:01:40.199 --> 01:01:47.159
But like, and we, we've discussed it, but DS9, try something, if it doesn't work, it discards it.

1080
01:01:47.219 --> 01:01:49.079
If it does work, it builds on it.

1081
01:01:49.139 --> 01:01:50.400
Yes, exactly right.

1082
01:01:50.460 --> 01:01:52.500
Voyager tries something.

1083
01:01:52.559 --> 01:01:57.239
If it doesn't work, more often than not, they'll try it again, Fairhaven.

1084
01:01:58.260 --> 01:02:00.119
If it does work.

1085
01:02:00.179 --> 01:02:04.619
They go, well, we aren't doing that again. speak of this again.

1086
01:02:05.099 --> 01:02:07.920
It's so strange, isn't it?

1087
01:02:07.980 --> 01:02:09.659
I've never known a show work like this.

1088
01:02:10.079 --> 01:02:20.699
The other disappointing thing is like I think about the various Star Trek romances in the 90s and they're all kind of terrible.

1089
01:02:21.239 --> 01:02:23.760
And this one wasn't.

1090
01:02:23.940 --> 01:02:25.380
You know, this one wasn't.

1091
01:02:25.500 --> 01:02:26.940
You know what?

1092
01:02:27.000 --> 01:02:43.380
I think my nearest comparison would be Odo and Kira in last day DS9, where it's 2 characters that have known each other for a while, where it's a relationship built on respect, where they understand each other, where neither one of them forces who they are on the other person.

1093
01:02:43.440 --> 01:02:44.039
Yeah.

1094
01:02:44.099 --> 01:02:46.019
And that works like gangbusters.

1095
01:02:46.079 --> 01:02:46.739
Sure.

1096
01:02:46.800 --> 01:02:58.800
But I meant like as an actual episode that's structured as a romance, you know, where 2 characters are isolated, get to know one another, have a relationship, and then the relationship ends in some way.

1097
01:02:58.860 --> 01:03:01.679
What was the TNG one you brought up last time?

1098
01:03:01.739 --> 01:03:07.079
I think lessons might be not that works pretty well.

1099
01:03:07.139 --> 01:03:09.119
I think it rejoined works quite well as well.

1100
01:03:09.179 --> 01:03:10.920
Yeah, okay.

1101
01:03:10.920 --> 01:03:12.480
But they are exceptions to the rule.

1102
01:03:12.539 --> 01:03:16.019
I mean, there's 10 more that don't work in each show.

1103
01:03:16.079 --> 01:03:29.519
But I think what's disappointing about this one is it has 2 charismatic leads and it goes nowhere and then the whole Chakotay kind of thing degenerates terribly, I think.

1104
01:03:29.579 --> 01:03:33.300
Um, you know, it's all just squandered.

1105
01:03:33.360 --> 01:03:36.659
It's usually, do you find him like trek romance?

1106
01:03:36.719 --> 01:03:38.099
We've done a fair few of them lately on this.

1107
01:03:38.880 --> 01:03:42.119
There's usually like an ick factor involved somewhere.

1108
01:03:42.179 --> 01:03:43.079
Yeah.

1109
01:03:43.139 --> 01:03:52.440
Whether that's how the man is treating the woman or, um, I don't know, Troy turning into an old Harridan trying to attack.

1110
01:03:52.440 --> 01:03:53.340
Yeah, that's awesome.

1111
01:03:53.400 --> 01:03:59.579
Or like, I don't know, Bashir coming onto his patient in that season 7 episode, which is very weird.

1112
01:03:59.639 --> 01:04:04.380
You know, there's always there's always like a level of like, ooh, this shouldn't be happening for one reason or another.

1113
01:04:04.440 --> 01:04:06.000
Throughout this episode.

1114
01:04:06.059 --> 01:04:07.920
We're like, no, no, this should be happening.

1115
01:04:07.980 --> 01:04:08.519
This works.

1116
01:04:08.639 --> 01:04:10.199
They've got great chemistry.

1117
01:04:10.260 --> 01:04:13.320
Now establish that they've got feelings for each other.

1118
01:04:13.380 --> 01:04:13.860
Let's go.

1119
01:04:13.980 --> 01:04:15.420
Yeah, yeah.

1120
01:04:15.480 --> 01:04:16.619
Let's do something interesting.

1121
01:04:16.679 --> 01:04:17.880
And that's the other thing too.

1122
01:04:17.940 --> 01:04:25.920
Like, the whole idea is this is a ship that's like a family, you know, she says, as she's saying goodbye to them in that beautiful speech.

1123
01:04:25.980 --> 01:04:27.780
They could be mum and dad.

1124
01:04:27.780 --> 01:04:30.659
Well, they could be, you know, like, why not?

1125
01:04:30.719 --> 01:04:34.079
Harry Kane would be so happy in our parents on the ship.

1126
01:04:34.139 --> 01:04:40.860
Because you have that relationship on Battlestar Galactica, that primary relationship on Battlestar Galactica.

1127
01:04:40.920 --> 01:04:55.320
And that works really well, but that's a grown-up show that's prepared to kind of pursue that sort of stuff and that's happy to have 2 older characters who are in a relationship together and just let that happen, you know, just shame.

1128
01:04:55.380 --> 01:05:01.679
Take it somewhere, you know, in the back of my head to a dreadful sitcom of Voyager, where Jane Wedge goes, oh, mom and dad.

1129
01:05:01.739 --> 01:05:03.239
And Harry Kim is their little kid.

1130
01:05:03.300 --> 01:05:05.519
And he's like, come on, you've got to go to the bridge today.

1131
01:05:05.579 --> 01:05:06.360
Mom!

1132
01:05:07.260 --> 01:05:09.300
Yeah, I'd watch that.

1133
01:05:09.360 --> 01:05:12.599
It might have been more fun than Voyager we go, actually.

1134
01:05:14.639 --> 01:05:23.400
Very, very, very satisfying episode, very unsatisfying decision post this episode.

1135
01:05:23.460 --> 01:05:24.599
Yeah.

1136
01:05:31.079 --> 01:05:52.380
All right, it's the end of the episode, and it is time for us to decide what we're going to watch next, and I want to keep my run of episodes of a certain level of quality, and for that reason, I've decided that this time, I'm going to choose an episode of Enterprise.

1137
01:05:52.619 --> 01:05:56.820
Well, you also, the average has been below average.

1138
01:05:56.940 --> 01:05:58.739
So I think you're going to be happy.

1139
01:05:58.800 --> 01:05:59.400
Don't worry.

1140
01:05:59.460 --> 01:06:00.000
Okay.

1141
01:06:00.059 --> 01:06:00.599
All right.

1142
01:06:00.659 --> 01:06:01.860
Let's see how we go.

1143
01:06:01.920 --> 01:06:03.179
What if I get a classic?

1144
01:06:03.960 --> 01:06:05.880
Is there a classic?

1145
01:06:05.940 --> 01:06:13.800
I don't know So this is series 2, episode 19, Judgement.

1146
01:06:14.039 --> 01:06:17.400
Oh, that's Scott Buckular's favourite episode.

1147
01:06:17.460 --> 01:06:18.780
Oh really?

1148
01:06:18.840 --> 01:06:23.880
He pinpointed that one has his favourite episode. particularly the speech he gives in the climax.

1149
01:06:23.940 --> 01:06:25.440
Is he an arsehole?

1150
01:06:25.500 --> 01:06:26.699
So I went and sort it out.

1151
01:06:26.820 --> 01:06:34.860
No, I think it's sort of, it's, you know, confirming the Star Trek ideal to a court of Klingons.

1152
01:06:35.099 --> 01:06:41.519
I do remember it wasn't as great as he thought it was, but it was probably above average.

1153
01:06:41.579 --> 01:06:43.860
Oh well, I'll pick another one then.

1154
01:06:46.920 --> 01:06:48.360
Kishara.

1155
01:06:48.420 --> 01:06:54.599
So I think that this is one that I want to do, and I'll tell you why.

1156
01:06:54.659 --> 01:07:21.480
It's because series 4 is like super interesting and I started watching it on the plane that one time and then didn't take it any further and I got, you know, 5 or 6 episodes in and I liked the way that the storytelling was like super serialised and there were episodes kind of loosely connected and stuff, but all of the episodes were sort of connected and one would lead on from another and stuff.

1157
01:07:21.539 --> 01:07:30.000
I didn't think that it was just like, it's not like a classic Doctor Who season where you have, you know, 6 stories told over sort of 26 episodes or anything like that.

1158
01:07:30.059 --> 01:07:39.420
It still seemed like a 26 episode thing, but everything was a little bit more serialised the way they did the previous year for series 3.

1159
01:07:39.719 --> 01:07:43.199
But I think this is more fun serialised in a way.

1160
01:07:43.260 --> 01:07:49.260
And I think it sort of opens the world up a little bit this season.

1161
01:07:49.320 --> 01:07:50.639
So I'd like to give it a go.

1162
01:07:50.699 --> 01:07:54.780
Every time I've dipped my toes into season four.

1163
01:07:54.840 --> 01:08:00.300
I've been quite impressed and I don't want to shit all over Branenbragger and Rick Bourbon, although we do that a lot.

1164
01:08:00.360 --> 01:08:01.260
Yeah, yeah.

1165
01:08:01.260 --> 01:08:08.639
But I think the show is on a more sophisticated footing once they are no longer sort of steering the ship.

1166
01:08:09.000 --> 01:08:16.260
And Manikoto has come in and he's kind of got a very sure idea of what he wants to do with it.

1167
01:08:16.680 --> 01:08:23.220
I think he was hoping it was going to go to a series 5 and he was definitely moving the show in a direction.

1168
01:08:23.340 --> 01:08:29.340
And finally, they're bloody embracing the past in a way that they should have done from series one.

1169
01:08:29.340 --> 01:08:32.340
And what have made people sort of tune in and pay attention.

1170
01:08:32.399 --> 01:08:33.659
Yeah, let's do it.

1171
01:08:33.720 --> 01:08:40.260
And I'm going to watch all three, even though we're going to be doing the conclusion of a...

1172
01:08:40.319 --> 01:08:46.619
I do think it would be very old without any context at all talking about the conclusion to a story.

1173
01:08:46.680 --> 01:08:54.659
It's just that like there is now so much Star Trek out there that is sort of serialised by the season.

1174
01:08:54.720 --> 01:09:01.920
So, you know, every time we do a Picard episode or a discovery episode we're going to be in a sort of fairly similar situation.

1175
01:09:01.979 --> 01:09:04.500
So it's something that we might have to learn to live with.

1176
01:09:04.560 --> 01:09:05.579
But I think I agree with you.

1177
01:09:05.640 --> 01:09:07.560
I haven't seen this trilogy at all.

1178
01:09:07.619 --> 01:09:17.100
And I'm intrigued because the 1st part, which is called The Forge apparently has the Vulcan embassy being bombed. so that'd be fun.

1179
01:09:17.159 --> 01:09:18.479
Yeah, yeah.

1180
01:09:18.539 --> 01:09:19.079
Yeah.

1181
01:09:19.140 --> 01:09:20.399
Yeah, why not?

1182
01:09:20.460 --> 01:09:22.140
Colour me intrigued.

1183
01:09:22.199 --> 01:09:22.920
Yeah.

1184
01:09:22.979 --> 01:09:23.460
Okay.

1185
01:09:23.520 --> 01:09:24.359
I think that'll be fun.

1186
01:09:24.420 --> 01:09:24.899
Let's do that.

1187
01:09:33.960 --> 01:09:44.579
You've been listening to entitled Star Trek project with Joe Ford and Nathan Bottomley, where online at untitled Star Trek project.com, where you can find subscription links and links to our social media accounts.

1188
01:09:44.640 --> 01:09:50.039
Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Sisrin and the theme was composed by Cameron Lahn.

1189
01:09:50.100 --> 01:09:55.739
This episode was recorded on the 17th of October 2023 and released on the 20th of October.

1190
01:09:55.800 --> 01:10:00.180
We'll see you next time for Star Trek Enterprise here, Shara.

1191
01:10:16.560 --> 01:10:18.960
Oh, well, I'll pick another one, then.

1192
01:10:22.079 --> 01:10:23.579
Kishara.

1193
01:10:23.579 --> 01:10:25.560
So, season four, episode nine.

1194
01:10:25.680 --> 01:10:28.739
I don't think we've done an episode.

1195
01:10:28.800 --> 01:10:31.739
I don't think we've done a series 4 episode.

1196
01:10:31.800 --> 01:10:33.239
It's in a trilogy though.

1197
01:10:33.300 --> 01:10:34.380
They're all in trilogy.

1198
01:10:34.439 --> 01:10:41.220
I know, I know, but our rule is if it's a two-parter, we do both parts, but if it's a trilogy, we just do the one part.

1199
01:10:41.340 --> 01:10:43.260
Which trilogy is that?

1200
01:10:43.319 --> 01:10:47.520
Like watching like, I don't know, watching like the middle or the end of a trilogy is just weird.

1201
01:10:49.739 --> 01:10:52.979
The trouble with series nine.

1202
01:10:53.100 --> 01:11:10.319
Sorry, the trouble with series 4 of Enterprise is, and I haven't watched it all the way through, that it is serialised all the way, that kind of each episode does follow on from the previous episode, even across the trilogies.

1203
01:11:10.380 --> 01:11:18.000
And so even though there are trilogies happening, it's still kind of a continuous story, which is what impressed me, I think, when I started watching it.

1204
01:11:18.060 --> 01:11:20.880
So is Kishara part of the Klingon trilogy?

1205
01:11:20.939 --> 01:11:22.920
I'm just going to find that out right now.

1206
01:11:22.979 --> 01:11:28.020
Give me a second. genre.

1207
01:11:31.079 --> 01:11:32.880
K-I-R apostrophe.

1208
01:11:33.000 --> 01:11:48.539
S-H-A-R-A. As the Enterprise travels to Andoria to warn Shran of a possible surprise attack, Archer and to Paul must bring a historic obelisk to the Vulcan High Command as proof of the Cyranite's true intentions.

1209
01:11:48.600 --> 01:11:50.100
So it's the.

1210
01:11:51.420 --> 01:11:56.100
I think it's the 2nd Yeah, the 2nd of a trilogy.

1211
01:11:56.340 --> 01:11:58.260
It's the middle one.

1212
01:11:58.319 --> 01:11:59.579
What of what trilogy, though?

1213
01:11:59.640 --> 01:12:02.159
I think it's like the Vulcan one in that season.

1214
01:12:02.279 --> 01:12:04.319
Is there a Vulcan trilogy that season?

1215
01:12:04.380 --> 01:12:09.359
I think, Shara, the Awakening, Serenites, Vulcan High Command.

1216
01:12:09.479 --> 01:12:09.659
Yeah.

1217
01:12:10.380 --> 01:12:13.199
Well, look, maybe it's a 2-parter.

1218
01:12:13.260 --> 01:12:13.800
I'm not sure.

1219
01:12:13.859 --> 01:12:14.819
It might be a two-parter.

1220
01:12:14.880 --> 01:12:15.720
You know what?

1221
01:12:15.779 --> 01:12:16.619
It sounds complicated.

1222
01:12:16.680 --> 01:12:17.520
Press it again.

1223
01:12:18.180 --> 01:12:21.720
Well, it just means that we won't ever get to do series.

1224
01:12:21.840 --> 01:12:23.819
We have done seriously, but we're going to get to do this before.

1225
01:12:23.880 --> 01:12:24.600
Tara Prime.

1226
01:12:24.659 --> 01:12:25.859
Oh yeah, that's true.

1227
01:12:25.920 --> 01:12:26.699
That is true.

1228
01:12:26.760 --> 01:12:28.020
Let's just check.

1229
01:12:28.079 --> 01:12:28.979
If it's a two-parted.

1230
01:12:29.039 --> 01:12:39.840
Like, I don't, because whenever we do discovery, it's going to be one part of a 13 parter, we can't watch all of them. so desperate for you to choose something like thoroughly below average.

1231
01:12:39.899 --> 01:12:41.039
Below average.

1232
01:12:41.100 --> 01:12:41.880
Let me have a look.

1233
01:12:46.500 --> 01:12:48.420
Oh my god.

1234
01:12:58.739 --> 01:13:17.939
So I think this is the, I think this is the climax of a 3 parter. which seems to start with the forge, which is the Vulcan embassy on Earth gets bombed, then continues with awakening and then seems to end with Kashara.

1235
01:13:18.000 --> 01:13:20.819
And then the next episode is called Dedalus.

1236
01:13:20.880 --> 01:13:26.939
Because Borderline, Borderland, Cold Station 12 and the Augment is the organisation. trilogy.

1237
01:13:27.000 --> 01:13:28.859
So this is the, yeah, the end of this three.

1238
01:13:29.399 --> 01:13:42.539
I kind of, I mean, I wouldn't mind doing a proper series for Enterprise episode because what we did do was kind of like the finale, wasn't it?

1239
01:13:42.659 --> 01:13:53.279
Like it was demons and Terra Prime, which is essentially the finale of Enterprise before we go into the big finale of 90s trek with that terrible episode that everyone hates.

1240
01:13:53.520 --> 01:13:56.159
Oh, yeah, I might watch the three.

1241
01:13:56.220 --> 01:13:58.140
I might try and find time to watch the three.

1242
01:13:58.140 --> 01:14:03.180
Because I don't really remember much about it and I think it'd be weird just to talk about the conclusion.

1243
01:14:03.239 --> 01:14:04.260
Talk about one part.

1244
01:14:04.380 --> 01:14:07.859
I haven't seen it, like I haven't seen it before.

1245
01:14:07.920 --> 01:14:11.939
I definitely haven't seen any of them or is it too hard?

1246
01:14:12.000 --> 01:14:13.260
What do you think?

1247
01:14:13.319 --> 01:14:18.479
It's just, I don't want to, well, between now and next Tuesday, I can definitely find 3 hours.

1248
01:14:18.779 --> 01:14:21.300
Yeah, I wonder if I can though.

1249
01:14:21.359 --> 01:14:22.619
I'm just letting me have a look.

1250
01:14:22.680 --> 01:14:24.060
What am I recording this weekend?

1251
01:14:25.680 --> 01:14:28.680
No, I'm not recording this weekend.

1252
01:14:29.460 --> 01:14:31.560
I reckon I can too.

1253
01:14:32.760 --> 01:14:34.439
What do you say?

1254
01:14:34.979 --> 01:14:35.399
lets do that.

1255
01:14:35.460 --> 01:14:35.699
Yeah.

1256
01:14:35.819 --> 01:14:41.279
Well, so I'm not quite sure what of all that I keep. get rid of.

1257
01:14:41.340 --> 01:14:42.420
Just let me say...

1258
01:14:42.420 --> 01:14:44.340
Imagine I've just... we just selected it.

1259
01:14:44.520 --> 01:14:46.500
And then go from here.

1260
01:14:46.859 --> 01:14:51.840
So I think that this is one that I want to do.