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This transcript was created on 2026-06-06 at 23:17:00

1
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Hey, Joe. Hi.

2
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So this is, I think, the second time that we've done a two-part series finale series opener.

3
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So we've done, uh, we did Scorpion and Scorpion part two, which is 2 years ago.

4
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Is that right?

5
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That's right And now we're 2 years on, and we're doing equinox and equinox part two.

6
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And I think perhaps the troubling thing about that was that I had virtually no memory of this and it seemed familiar when I watched it.

7
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I did sort of start to remember things, but this is not one that I think made much of a lasting impression on me.

8
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See, I did remember this one.

9
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I remember when I reviewed this for my website, and I really like the sort of moral areas that the episode goes into, and it does go to show how your opinion can change over time, because I've got a hell of a lot of issues with this episode now that I never did back in the day.

10
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What's interesting is scorpion and equinox both promise to shake up Voyager in some way.

11
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One with this threat that's worse than the Borg, and the other with this 2nd ship, which looks like it's going to be towing alongside Voyager for the rest of the run.

12
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What happens is they flirt with the idea for 2 episodes, both of them, then we just go back on our merry way of TNG knockoffs after that.

13
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It's a problem with this show.

14
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Yeah, like, I think that they're really intentionally doing this, right?

15
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I think that that's coming from the studio or whatever from the network or from, you know, the producers that they just want to continue doing Star Trek the Next Generation.

16
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And Star Trek, the Next Generation, discovered that these big 2 parters were hugely effective, like best of both worlds and best of both worlds, part 2 is incredible. you know, and no one expected it at the time and this is a thing that we got.

17
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And we're still doing it now 7 years later.

18
00:02:30.900 --> 00:02:35.039
And TV sort of has moved on a bit.

19
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I think that if you are only watching Star Trek, you would think that this was kind of normal behaviour.

20
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But we've got a big thing that happens.

21
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And I think everyone by now must have suspected that it was all just going to be resolved at the end of episode 2 and we would never speak of it again.

22
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And that is, of course, what happens.

23
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I just, I don't understand why they would bring in those crew members have that scene at the end of Equinox 2.

24
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Right, you're staying on the ship now, but we're going to be watching you, all right?

25
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And then we never mention those people ever again.

26
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They are just lost in the crew compliment.

27
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Maybe they have one scene.

28
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I don't know.

29
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But they have no significant impact on Voyager. at all.

30
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So what is the point?

31
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Yeah, and I mean, that's kind of a thing, isn't it?

32
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Like, that's what Voyager's doing.

33
00:03:23.400 --> 00:03:27.960
And so when you're doing that, you have 2 ways that you could go.

34
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You could just make sure that nothing happens that kind of shakes the status quo up too much because we all know that's a cheat.

35
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Or you can just go, no, you know, that's boring.

36
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We are going to do some big things.

37
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We're going to have a sort of giant game changing thing, and then part 2 will be, well, how do we get back to the status quo from here?

38
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But that's actually also kind of boring.

39
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And it doesn't make any sense.

40
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Yeah, it's a look at what the show could be for a couple of episodes before pulling back and saying, no, we're not going to be that brave.

41
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It's weird.

42
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It's weird to sort of wave the flag of potential, every sort of, I don't know, half season and then just go back to doing, you call it TNG, but it's TNG light, really, isn't it?

43
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Yeah.

44
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But I think the problem here is that 2 years ago, we had Chakotay contradicting Janeway's orders and having a sort of big conflict with her, and I think we felt that he was in the wrong, whether the show did or not is not entirely clear.

45
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I don't think it was brave enough to even... sort of explore it, were they?

46
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They were just, he was this side of it.

47
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She was that side of it.

48
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And then it was just happily resolved at the end.

49
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Yeah, and then this time, of course, they have a conflict in episode 2 as well.

50
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And it's a much more serious conflict, I think.

51
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And, you know, like it's resolved in the most half-assed way possible.

52
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And we just sort of go back and it's never mentioned again.

53
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And you can't keep doing that, I think.

54
00:05:12.240 --> 00:05:26.879
Well, we'll have some quotes from Ron Moore in episode 2 because he's got a lot to say about that episode in particular as to why he chipped off Voyager because he just couldn't work in a writer's room where there were no character consequences or where nothing meant anything.

55
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That's just not the sort of TV he wanted to write.

56
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But I said to you off, Mike, this 2 pastors, well, and I don't think it's without merit, and I really quite like episode one.

57
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But it takes a very odd approach of the writing suggesting that Jane Weigh is 100% right in episode one and 100% wrong in episode two.

58
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And it's a very bizarre shift, and my issue with equinox now is I don't think she's right in episode one, and I don't think she's right in episode two.

59
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So I think both approaches don't work for me.

60
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Because I feel that she she comes across as somebody...

61
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You know, like when you've been floating through the Delta Quadrant on a walking armchair and living in the life of Riley, as she has, to come down as hard as she does on somebody that says, you know, my crew was starving for 16 days and we were in a situation of extreme peril.

62
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No, no.

63
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And so we decided to murder a whole bunch of people.

64
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No, I don't think I'm completely on random size in that argument.

65
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No, no, no.

66
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And what annoys me is she doesn't even, she doesn't even acknowledge what he's saying at all.

67
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There's no there's no discussion.

68
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She just cuts him down and says, no, you're wrong.

69
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No, no.

70
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But I think he's very clearly wrong.

71
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And I actually am not entirely certain that when Janeway starts losing it, that she's necessarily doing the wrong thing.

72
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Uh, and I kind of, well, because we'll get there, I think, but ransom is not someone who's done some desperate things.

73
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He hasn't sort of boarded an Illyrianship and stolen their warp core.

74
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He's deliberately vivisected and intends to murder a large number of people.

75
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And I think that that's fairly clearly, however hungry you are. the wrong thing to do.

76
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You know, I had a nice steak last night and I wasn't in any danger whatsoever.

77
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No, no, no, no.

78
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And the way the, I mean, the way this show works.

79
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Do you know what I mean?

80
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Like, yes, you know, morality around eating meat and stuff is very complicated and the cow probably had plans for its day and all of that sort of thing.

81
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But here, I think, I think they're very clearly in the wrong.

82
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And I think we're given a situation where they're as bad as they could possibly be because they deliberately institute a program of experimenting on these aliens and then they intend to kill like dozens of them in order to use them as fuel and get home.

83
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So I think that that's sort of super clearly wrong.

84
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And I think that she has.

85
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What does she say about me then?

86
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Because I don't know.

87
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Well, no, I think I think that, you know, murdering people in order to get home.

88
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Like, you know, I wonder, I just put myself in their petition.

89
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And I'm like, how what would I do?

90
00:08:27.360 --> 00:08:29.579
And I think I would probably do the same thing.

91
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No, I mean, I think I think that the situation, that what's, I think that what's, what's the problem here is that that is such an extraordinarily, um, clearly evil thing to do, that how they all come to agree to it, you know, and there's a bit of talk about it in episode one when we hear his backstory and how many of his crew are dead and all of that sort of thing.

92
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So like whatever.

93
00:09:02.399 --> 00:09:06.179
But I think Janeway's reaction to him is fair enough.

94
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And I think too, that there's a lot to be said for just turning off the force fields and letting the creepy alien things just deal with them in their own way.

95
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I mean, we were supposed to let the Edo execute Wesley when he sort of, you know, fell into the flower bed and stuff.

96
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He committed a crime according to their laws.

97
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You know, we eventually decide to get him out of it because of course we do.

98
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But there is that thing, isn't there right from wolf in the fold, that they've committed a crime and we don't have jurisdiction here, but the people they committed the crime against do.

99
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And so I don't think it's wrong necessarily for her to do what she does to Rickworthy in episode two.

100
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I don't think she's necessarily.

101
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Yeah, I hate it too.

102
00:09:58.500 --> 00:10:10.740
And I think there's reasons for it, but I think that they do their best because at that point, remember, 3 Voyager crew members have been killed as a result of their behaviour.

103
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And that's the thing.

104
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I'm not saying, yeah.

105
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I'm not suggesting that they are in the right.

106
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I'm just suggesting that they're put in an impossible situation and they made a bad call that I would probably make myself.

107
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And I think the point where the call is wrong is where Voyager comes along and there is an option now to say, right, we did this wrong thing, but we've got your facilities now.

108
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We can get home in a safe way.

109
00:10:39.419 --> 00:10:40.919
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

110
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And then they, no, and then what they decide to do instead is no, we're not, we're not going to take their help.

111
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We're going to continue to hurt these creatures and we're going to get home.

112
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And that's the point where I think they...

113
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It's not just that too.

114
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It's that Voyager ends up in what I think is one of the best things about part one.

115
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Voyager ends up in exactly the same situation that Equinox was.

116
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What do they do?

117
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They start pulling out their guns.

118
00:11:09.659 --> 00:11:12.299
Yeah, yeah, no, no, of course they do.

119
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They're under attack.

120
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That's fair enough.

121
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But remember, that's not how it started.

122
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They're under attack because they've been vivisecting and murdering people.

123
00:11:20.039 --> 00:11:21.480
I think my issue with fighting back.

124
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Slimers is that they are kind of portrayed as animals as well.

125
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They're not they don't come across as a sentient life form with intelligence or anything like that.

126
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In the back of my head, I'm like, well, he's just, like, we murder a load of pigs.

127
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He's just killed a load of slimer creatures and to get home and what's wrong with that.

128
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We're doing the same thing.

129
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No, no, no.

130
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Yeah, and that is different.

131
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But I think that they do communicate, don't they?

132
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and they are intentional and stuff.

133
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And I think, again, that's kind of interesting too.

134
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Maybe they should have been humanoids.

135
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Maybe they should have been like a race of people.

136
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That would have made it far more explicit.

137
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But there's something a little bit interesting about the ambiguity posed by how different they are from us, and maybe they're so different that it's impossible for the equinox crew to kind of include them in their, you know, moral community because they're just too weird looking, and that's how they manage to behave like this towards them.

138
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But you know as well.

139
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There have been situations in Voyages run where Janeway has made some pretty dodgy calls, you know.

140
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She, technically, murdered tubics.

141
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I know that's the one we all go to, but she committed murder and probably should be condemned for the fact.

142
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I don't understand how she can get on a moral high horse as much as she does when she has made so many questionable decisions in the last 5 years.

143
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But it's not that.

144
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And what it should be, what it should be is, she was presented with that choice in Caretaker, where she had to choose between getting her crew home and allowing the Cazon to kill all the Ocampa, or protecting the Ocampa, who they didn't know, you know, they had nothing to do with them and strand themselves in the Delta Quadrant.

145
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And that's a decision that should have been visibly weighing on Jane Way and doesn't really.

146
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I mean, we get it in night.

147
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We get it in the finale, but it's not something that comes up all that often, I think, or anywhere near often enough.

148
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And it doesn't come up here either.

149
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That's the thing because the writers aren't doing any of the work about letting us know why the people are behaving the way they are, and all they're interested in is the action that takes place as a result.

150
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And so I think that you get something that fills its sort of hour and a half and is entertaining and has incident and things happen and it's exciting and and all of that and there's some feels in there as well.

151
00:14:01.259 --> 00:14:03.720
But it's a bit empty though, I think.

152
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Everything feels so black and white all the time.

153
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It doesn't feel like there's any sort of muddy areas that we're exploring.

154
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And that's just not satisfying to watch.

155
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Yeah, but the deliberate choices these guys are going to commit mass murder in order to get home.

156
00:14:21.659 --> 00:14:25.740
So there's no moral debate about whether they've done the right thing or not.

157
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They've very clearly done the wrong thing and, you know, all of that.

158
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But what we don't get is any of the debate that you and I are having about this, no one really.

159
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You know, we're doing the writer's work.

160
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None of the writers are interested in examining the situation in any way at all.

161
00:14:42.480 --> 00:14:45.000
And how does Janeway react?

162
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She just reacts in a way that gets Kate to do some acting and that's really it.

163
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So extreme though, isn't it?

164
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I love it.

165
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But the trouble is, we'll put it out when we get there.

166
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She ain't convinced at all by this royal.

167
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Yeah, I know.

168
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And she's saying the lines, but she's not saying them all with any kind.

169
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She's going, yeah, hell break, you know?

170
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I actually really like that scene.

171
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And I like how sort of wet and pathetic Chakotay is in that too.

172
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Um, you know, for goodness sake.

173
00:15:18.600 --> 00:15:23.039
So we're goodness to a conclusion so we can skip in.

174
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The trouble is, is, I don't think anybody is convinced by this.

175
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I've got some quotes here from memory alpha, and you've got Joe Manosky, our favourite, you know, masks playing and things like that.

176
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Quote, saying we were all really exhausted.

177
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We didn't know what in the world we were going to do for the last episode.

178
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Branner and Rick Berman worked out.

179
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Some of the episode.

180
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We probably had a week to go before prep, but before Brandon came up with the idea that was workable.

181
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I just had no hope for it at all.

182
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It had the feeling of elements stitched together without a driving point of view, which we'll talk about. hazard and clunky structure and story.

183
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So the writer wasn't at all convinced.

184
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Then you got John Savage in here. and he saw, he goes, I saw wonderful possibilities and moments like in the relationship with Janeway, a man and a woman and also as captains and as people.

185
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I just felt like I might have unfortunately overcomplicated myself and had to be pulled straight by Kate.

186
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I didn't have to be.

187
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She was generous and it was a good experience, but we both had a lot of stuff going on.

188
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So there was stuff going on between the actors as well.

189
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And then there's quotes in now, I won't read them all, but from David Livingston saying everybody was at the end of their tether recording this, you know, like it was a punishing shoot where they were having to do new sets, fill it with dry eyes, all right at the end of the year where everyone's ready to go, you know, on the holiday break or whatever they do at the end of the season.

190
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So I feel like maybe some of that hits the screen.

191
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Yeah.

192
00:16:55.440 --> 00:17:01.500
Well, we're about to watch a part one that doesn't have a part 2 written when it's finished, does it?

193
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Like, they haven't written part one, part two.

194
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They don't know where it's going to go.

195
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They were very lucky in best of both worlds because I reckon part 2 of that is only barely acceptable.

196
00:17:14.579 --> 00:17:17.700
And they've, yeah, yeah.

197
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I think they paint themselves into such a corner that part 2 is a lot of standing around waiting for the situation to resolve itself.

198
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I can't wait to do that one with you.

199
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Maybe it's better than I remember.

200
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But there's absolutely no guarantee that you can pull a rabbit out of a hat for part 2 if you haven't set anything up in part one.

201
00:17:38.460 --> 00:17:40.079
And I think that's a problem.

202
00:17:40.140 --> 00:17:43.980
It's not a bad part one At least we've part one of Econox.

203
00:17:44.039 --> 00:17:45.660
Like I said to you off mic.

204
00:17:45.720 --> 00:17:53.039
There's all this stuff going on behind the scenes that the voyage crew don't know about, the Equinox crew are waiting to make them move and then they do at the end.

205
00:17:53.099 --> 00:17:55.380
And so there's a bit of free sort of like, oh, where's this going?

206
00:17:55.500 --> 00:17:58.440
And then as soon as I started episode two, right?

207
00:17:58.500 --> 00:17:59.759
And he's on the run.

208
00:17:59.819 --> 00:18:02.099
He's got 7 and 9 and all this is going on.

209
00:18:02.160 --> 00:18:05.160
Janeway's gone on a mad psychotic hunt after him.

210
00:18:05.220 --> 00:18:10.380
And I'm just like, oh, he's going to sacrifice himself at the end and that's going to be the end of this show.

211
00:18:10.440 --> 00:18:11.759
Like, that's how this is going to end.

212
00:18:11.759 --> 00:18:15.359
Because now he's being portrayed as a slightly nicer bloke, you know?

213
00:18:15.420 --> 00:18:18.420
he's going to make the right call at the end of the story.

214
00:18:19.259 --> 00:18:21.359
Well, should we go and watch it?

215
00:18:23.519 --> 00:18:25.740
I don't think it's terrible.

216
00:18:25.799 --> 00:18:29.039
I just think it is a huge missed opportunity.

217
00:18:29.099 --> 00:18:36.240
And it's a huge missed opportunity in a characteristically voyager way, I think, is the thing.

218
00:18:36.299 --> 00:18:39.480
Oh, sorry, I thought we were talking about the series, not this 2 par.

219
00:18:40.259 --> 00:18:43.200
Voyager, a huge missed opportunity.

220
00:18:43.259 --> 00:18:46.619
Except when lower decks is taking the piss out of it.

221
00:18:46.680 --> 00:18:47.819
Yeah, yeah.

222
00:18:48.119 --> 00:18:49.500
Okay.

223
00:18:49.559 --> 00:18:51.119
I'm going to count it in.

224
00:18:51.180 --> 00:18:57.119
Five, four, three, two, one, and we're off.

225
00:18:57.539 --> 00:19:01.619
You know, David Liverson is one of the best directions they have, you know.

226
00:19:01.680 --> 00:19:05.039
So he does give this a bit of gumption, this pre-total sequence.

227
00:19:05.700 --> 00:19:12.180
I don't think this is a very good scene for some reason, and I'm not quite sure why.

228
00:19:12.240 --> 00:19:14.700
And I think, look at all the rocks.

229
00:19:15.180 --> 00:19:17.640
There are lots of rocks on the floor.

230
00:19:17.700 --> 00:19:19.619
It's a decent set.

231
00:19:19.740 --> 00:19:21.539
It's not a bad set, is it?

232
00:19:21.599 --> 00:19:24.299
I thought it was just a decent...

233
00:19:24.299 --> 00:19:25.019
Don't you complain?

234
00:19:25.079 --> 00:19:26.519
He's doing overhead shooting look.

235
00:19:26.579 --> 00:19:28.799
He's got the camera right above the actors. yeah, yeah.

236
00:19:28.859 --> 00:19:31.319
No, no, I think it looks quite good.

237
00:19:31.380 --> 00:19:33.240
I think that set looks sort of pretty great.

238
00:19:33.299 --> 00:19:41.039
I like, why does Deep Space 9 have shitty phaser rifles and Voyager has really great ones.

239
00:19:41.099 --> 00:19:41.700
Look at those.

240
00:19:41.759 --> 00:19:43.980
Well, this is just the spirit of mine is ending.

241
00:19:44.039 --> 00:19:46.380
This came out at the same time as what you leave behind, remember?

242
00:19:46.440 --> 00:19:47.640
Yeah, yeah, no I know.

243
00:19:47.700 --> 00:19:48.119
I know.

244
00:19:48.180 --> 00:19:54.599
But Voyages had these better phaser rifles all along and Deep Space Niners had the Balsa wood ones for some reason.

245
00:19:55.140 --> 00:19:57.059
Oh, that effect?

246
00:19:57.119 --> 00:19:59.640
Look, that guy got killed and dehydrated.

247
00:19:59.700 --> 00:20:02.640
I mean, it does look a bit like Voyager outside, doesn't it?

248
00:20:02.700 --> 00:20:03.359
In the dark.

249
00:20:03.480 --> 00:20:04.559
It does a bit.

250
00:20:04.619 --> 00:20:05.279
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

251
00:20:05.339 --> 00:20:06.960
But it's a different shape.

252
00:20:07.019 --> 00:20:08.099
Can I tell you something really funny?

253
00:20:08.819 --> 00:20:12.000
Bragger said to the special effects team.

254
00:20:12.059 --> 00:20:16.380
I want the scariest aliens we've ever seen in Star Trek.

255
00:20:16.440 --> 00:20:19.380
So the idea was that they were supposed to be presented as monsters.

256
00:20:19.440 --> 00:20:22.259
That's why the twist hits halfway through the episode.

257
00:20:22.319 --> 00:20:24.059
No, they were actually the victims all along.

258
00:20:24.119 --> 00:20:27.480
And that's what we got, those bloody CGI slimers.

259
00:20:27.539 --> 00:20:29.279
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

260
00:20:29.339 --> 00:20:33.299
Yeah. somebody's imagination did not stretch very far.

261
00:20:33.839 --> 00:20:41.880
Well, I mean, they were trying, and this is 2 years after they attempted the 8472, which again don't really work, do they?

262
00:20:41.940 --> 00:20:44.220
But it's a, it's an attempt.

263
00:20:44.279 --> 00:20:53.640
And I miss the days, you know, when a pre-tight, sorry, a title sequence can be Voyager, just lazily, gracefully going through a cloud of light like that.

264
00:20:54.240 --> 00:21:01.140
Well, I think that the Strange New World's titles do this.

265
00:21:01.200 --> 00:21:02.819
Only it's not as leisurely.

266
00:21:02.880 --> 00:21:05.160
It a bit more kind of propulsive and stuff.

267
00:21:05.220 --> 00:21:12.359
I think we've come to the conclusion that the Kersman title sequences are superior to the noise one. in every single way.

268
00:21:12.420 --> 00:21:13.019
Yeah.

269
00:21:13.079 --> 00:21:15.599
I still think the best one's prodigy, though, you know.

270
00:21:15.660 --> 00:21:17.339
Yeah, prodigy's great.

271
00:21:17.460 --> 00:21:19.920
I really like discovery.

272
00:21:19.980 --> 00:21:20.880
It's so strange.

273
00:21:20.940 --> 00:21:22.859
It's so different from all of the others.

274
00:21:22.920 --> 00:21:24.779
But I do remember 1st seeing this.

275
00:21:24.839 --> 00:21:26.579
I 1st watched this, right?

276
00:21:26.640 --> 00:21:27.660
Caretaker.

277
00:21:27.720 --> 00:21:31.019
Someone bought the cassette in and we had like a premiere at the school.

278
00:21:31.380 --> 00:21:37.980
So we were all in the classroom and I remember watching this title sequence and going, well, TV has never looked better than this.

279
00:21:38.220 --> 00:21:40.740
At the time, it was quite impressive.

280
00:21:40.799 --> 00:21:41.880
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

281
00:21:41.940 --> 00:21:45.839
Look, did you see how its Nacelles went up just before it went to warp amazing.

282
00:21:45.900 --> 00:21:50.160
You're the bit where the camera goes through the rings of the planet and there's all the rocks.

283
00:21:50.220 --> 00:21:51.299
Yeah, yeah, yeah. pretty great.

284
00:21:51.359 --> 00:21:52.500
That is pretty great.

285
00:21:52.920 --> 00:21:54.539
Here we go.

286
00:21:54.599 --> 00:21:55.740
We're in Astrometrics.

287
00:21:55.799 --> 00:22:00.240
Yes, having another PowerPoint presentation by 7 of nine.

288
00:22:00.599 --> 00:22:05.039
At least there's a bit of footage in the middle, you know, like, normally it's just a graphic.

289
00:22:05.099 --> 00:22:07.920
Yeah, it's, it's really funny, isn't it?

290
00:22:08.160 --> 00:22:15.480
It's because they've got such a tiny screen on the bridge and say they have to go to Astrometrics or anything interesting.

291
00:22:16.920 --> 00:22:19.140
So we have a few people here.

292
00:22:19.200 --> 00:22:39.720
So John Savage is played, is playing Captain Ransom, and we have Rick Worthy, who we have talked about before, because he's the Zindi arboreal, uh, in series 3, uh, an ape.

293
00:22:39.779 --> 00:22:41.460
But he's really good.

294
00:22:41.519 --> 00:22:46.619
He's done a few Star Trek, I think, over the years and he's got a great voice.

295
00:22:46.680 --> 00:22:49.859
Like, I think his introduction is really pretty good.

296
00:22:49.920 --> 00:22:52.440
Where do I know George Savage from?

297
00:22:52.500 --> 00:22:54.059
I don't know.

298
00:22:54.119 --> 00:22:54.900
I don't know.

299
00:22:54.960 --> 00:22:59.460
Everyone talks about him in the quotes for on memory alpha and stuff like he's a big deal.

300
00:22:59.519 --> 00:23:00.900
And so he clearly is.

301
00:23:00.960 --> 00:23:03.480
I think he's a bit miscast, actually.

302
00:23:03.539 --> 00:23:06.960
Um, because like, did you hear that quote?

303
00:23:07.019 --> 00:23:07.799
I think he does as well.

304
00:23:07.859 --> 00:23:12.599
Yeah, don't you think, like, this is a science ship?

305
00:23:12.660 --> 00:23:18.119
And I just think he reads his too military, like he's like a xenobiologist or something.

306
00:23:18.180 --> 00:23:21.180
And why isn't he a little bit more of a nerd?

307
00:23:21.240 --> 00:23:22.859
And imagine if he'd been younger.

308
00:23:22.920 --> 00:23:41.279
Imagine if he'd been just a bit less forceful, like, and then you kind of get that he's behaving in this terrible way out of fear, or you get the kind of idea, like, it's more shocking, I think, when you discover that he's murdering you.

309
00:23:41.339 --> 00:23:42.839
Just making him a bit likeable.

310
00:23:42.900 --> 00:23:45.299
He's not very like what I want to see.

311
00:23:45.359 --> 00:23:51.359
So if we've got to like him and then found out he's been murdering these aliens and that might be a bit more confronting.

312
00:23:51.420 --> 00:23:52.740
Why is Neelix on the bridge?

313
00:23:53.279 --> 00:23:55.799
He's got lines in this scene?

314
00:23:55.859 --> 00:23:56.940
said on the bridge?

315
00:23:57.000 --> 00:23:58.799
It's the only risk.

316
00:23:58.859 --> 00:24:11.579
Do you know, one thing I did I've become very aware of as this episode played out was the very TNG style plotting of it, you know, that they present a bit of drama at the beginning.

317
00:24:11.640 --> 00:24:13.680
They meet the ship, they go over to the ship.

318
00:24:13.740 --> 00:24:17.279
They come on, we have a bit of shitty Voyager banter.

319
00:24:17.339 --> 00:24:27.000
Then we get a hint that something's wrong, we do a bit of investigation, they figure out that they know that something's wrong, they make their move, the end.

320
00:24:27.059 --> 00:24:32.579
I'm just like, you can literally plot this episode out from about 15 minutes in as to where it's going to go.

321
00:24:32.640 --> 00:24:33.480
Yeah, yeah.

322
00:24:33.539 --> 00:24:36.180
We've seen it before, you know.

323
00:24:36.420 --> 00:24:37.859
Yeah.

324
00:24:37.920 --> 00:24:48.059
And this is something that, like, he's going to go on and redo this, isn't he, in Pegasus on Battlestar Galactica.

325
00:24:48.119 --> 00:24:55.200
And there he has the ability to do it because the situation is so much more desperate.

326
00:24:55.319 --> 00:24:56.700
Oh, yeah, he...

327
00:24:56.700 --> 00:24:57.779
Get it as well, isn't it?

328
00:24:57.839 --> 00:24:58.619
Absolutely.

329
00:24:58.680 --> 00:25:00.779
Yeah, so, well, you've got Michelle Forbes.

330
00:25:00.839 --> 00:25:05.039
I thought the engineering set was pretty shitty and cheap, but.

331
00:25:05.099 --> 00:25:09.240
I just, for me, I just love it when they turn the lights down and pump in a bit of dry ice.

332
00:25:09.299 --> 00:25:11.700
You know, we give us a little bit of it.

333
00:25:11.759 --> 00:25:15.539
I know, it's the basic atmosphere, but it's an effort at least.

334
00:25:15.599 --> 00:25:17.160
I guess so.

335
00:25:17.279 --> 00:25:21.480
You know, what are those weird sort of curly whirly things hanging from the ceiling?

336
00:25:21.539 --> 00:25:22.380
You see that?

337
00:25:22.500 --> 00:25:23.700
Yeah, no, I did.

338
00:25:23.759 --> 00:25:25.859
Look at that terrible, desiccated gorse.

339
00:25:25.920 --> 00:25:27.180
Yeah, yeah.

340
00:25:27.240 --> 00:25:28.079
See that's pretty good.

341
00:25:28.140 --> 00:25:29.220
That is pretty great.

342
00:25:29.400 --> 00:25:31.140
Oh my.

343
00:25:31.259 --> 00:25:34.680
We haven't mentioned, you know, we've got all these Roberts on the screen.

344
00:25:35.160 --> 00:25:37.920
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

345
00:25:37.980 --> 00:25:39.900
All the Roberts are engaged in this.

346
00:25:39.960 --> 00:25:43.500
Oh well, not all of them are engaged in this away mission.

347
00:25:43.559 --> 00:25:46.740
And so this is our 1st hint that something's wrong, isn't it?

348
00:25:46.799 --> 00:25:54.660
There's some weird uh, modification being made to the, the propulsion system, to the warp core.

349
00:25:56.279 --> 00:26:01.799
Oh, I love, is this the, no, this is the woman underneath the boat kid, isn't it?

350
00:26:01.859 --> 00:26:02.400
Yeah, yeah.

351
00:26:02.460 --> 00:26:04.920
There's a brilliant jump square that really got me.

352
00:26:04.980 --> 00:26:09.599
I was watching it in the dark where the man comes out with the phraser screaming his head off, firing the phaser.

353
00:26:09.660 --> 00:26:10.859
I was like, that was a good moment.

354
00:26:11.099 --> 00:26:15.599
So, again, I liked Mala for a while.

355
00:26:15.660 --> 00:26:18.660
So this is this characters called Marla Gilmour.

356
00:26:18.720 --> 00:26:20.700
I think she's like an ensign, isn't she?

357
00:26:20.759 --> 00:26:21.720
Ensign Gilmore.

358
00:26:21.779 --> 00:26:28.920
Um, And I kind of like, because she's the one who, when they're kind of sprung.

359
00:26:28.980 --> 00:26:32.279
She kind of says, oh, look, I'm kind of glad you are here.

360
00:26:32.700 --> 00:26:35.039
In a way to stop us.

361
00:26:35.099 --> 00:26:37.500
Well, she's one of the few that makes it as well, isn't she?

362
00:26:37.559 --> 00:26:39.000
She joins the Voyager crew at the end.

363
00:26:39.119 --> 00:26:41.039
Yeah, but he's never seen again.

364
00:26:41.160 --> 00:26:43.680
Her and the Borg baby are...

365
00:26:43.680 --> 00:26:47.759
They put her in sort of, you know, waste reclamation or something like that for the rest of the trip.

366
00:26:47.880 --> 00:26:50.279
She's shovelling shit.

367
00:26:50.400 --> 00:26:53.160
Oh, no, no, come on.

368
00:26:53.220 --> 00:26:54.539
That's wicked What?

369
00:26:54.539 --> 00:26:59.220
That's why that's why Mariner and Boiler end up doing on the Serenos.

370
00:26:59.339 --> 00:27:01.500
You did something very wrong.

371
00:27:01.619 --> 00:27:03.960
You're cleaning on all the cum off the walls, all right?

372
00:27:04.019 --> 00:27:05.400
the rest of the journey.

373
00:27:05.460 --> 00:27:08.339
And so here's Rick Worthy.

374
00:27:08.400 --> 00:27:13.140
And so Rick Worthy is, so his character's called Noah.

375
00:27:13.380 --> 00:27:16.799
I think he has the most beautiful voice.

376
00:27:16.859 --> 00:27:19.200
Like, I thought this scene.

377
00:27:19.799 --> 00:27:31.619
Like just just, you know, the silhouette of his face just lit just very slightly in the darkness and the sound of his voice and the calmness of his delivery.

378
00:27:31.680 --> 00:27:33.660
I thought he was really good here.

379
00:27:33.779 --> 00:27:37.859
The performance is good, but the character is just nothing, is he?

380
00:27:37.920 --> 00:27:39.599
There's nothing to hang on to.

381
00:27:39.660 --> 00:27:40.319
No.

382
00:27:40.380 --> 00:27:42.480
Look, I mean, basically, who do you have?

383
00:27:42.539 --> 00:27:43.920
You've got 3 people on?

384
00:27:43.920 --> 00:27:44.519
4 people.

385
00:27:44.579 --> 00:27:52.859
So you've got Max, uh, um, Marla, Noah and Captain Ransom or Rudy to his crew.

386
00:27:52.920 --> 00:27:56.160
Um, and you've got time.

387
00:27:56.220 --> 00:27:56.640
There you go.

388
00:27:56.700 --> 00:27:57.720
There's your job scare.

389
00:27:57.779 --> 00:27:59.220
Take cover.

390
00:27:59.279 --> 00:28:00.660
This guy's called Thompson.

391
00:28:00.720 --> 00:28:03.779
He's...

392
00:28:03.779 --> 00:28:04.619
Oh, bless him.

393
00:28:04.680 --> 00:28:08.400
He's got he's got Captain Decker hair.

394
00:28:08.460 --> 00:28:12.839
He's been completely traumatised by the death of the crew.

395
00:28:12.900 --> 00:28:17.880
But with those 4 characters, right, you've got 4 reasonably good actors there, yeah.

396
00:28:17.940 --> 00:28:19.140
Yeah, yeah.

397
00:28:19.200 --> 00:28:25.079
So do you remember when Farscape had the 2 ships going side by side and you cut between the 2 for like half a season?

398
00:28:25.140 --> 00:28:25.740
I've never heard of it.

399
00:28:25.799 --> 00:28:26.640
Oh, okay.

400
00:28:26.700 --> 00:28:29.460
Well, it's a wonderful science fiction show made in Australia.

401
00:28:29.519 --> 00:28:31.680
You know, you may have heard of Australia.land, I think.

402
00:28:32.640 --> 00:28:35.099
And they did this.

403
00:28:35.220 --> 00:28:42.779
Another ship came along and then the 2 ships travelled side by side for half the season and you did half the episodes on one ship and half in the other and split the regulars into two.

404
00:28:42.839 --> 00:28:46.440
Now, I know Star Trek was never, it was never good.

405
00:28:46.500 --> 00:28:49.980
No, just for story reasons and for character reasons, just different mixes of characters.

406
00:28:50.039 --> 00:28:52.319
Almost certainly for budgetary reasons.

407
00:28:52.380 --> 00:28:57.900
Anyway, um, Star Trek was never going to do that.

408
00:28:57.960 --> 00:29:08.759
But, like, we did DS9 recently, and they had 6 episodes after the change in the status quo, where they played about with the ideas, they could have done something like that.

409
00:29:09.480 --> 00:29:13.019
Yeah, and Battlestar Galactica does it, doesn't it?

410
00:29:13.079 --> 00:29:22.980
Well, Pegasus travels with Battlestar Galactica for a long time, you know, and Michelle Forbes is in a few episodes and we discover the crew have been doing evil things.

411
00:29:23.039 --> 00:29:29.759
And then we get the Pegasus travelling with Galactica for like half a season, I think, for quite a while.

412
00:29:29.819 --> 00:29:32.700
Give these 4 characters, I don't know, 6 episodes.

413
00:29:32.759 --> 00:29:34.140
Give them some time.

414
00:29:34.200 --> 00:29:35.819
Give them some good carrots work.

415
00:29:36.359 --> 00:29:38.160
But they could have.

416
00:29:38.220 --> 00:29:39.660
Yeah.

417
00:29:39.720 --> 00:29:41.099
So what do they do?

418
00:29:41.160 --> 00:29:50.519
So the, the thing that, you know, look, the place that Voyager goes wrong is somewhere at the suits level, isn't it?

419
00:29:50.640 --> 00:29:57.599
Because with Star Trek the Next Generation, it has basically no premise, doesn't it?

420
00:29:57.660 --> 00:30:02.819
It's like we're on the Federation flagship and we're taking delegates to Pacifica or whatever.

421
00:30:02.880 --> 00:30:08.880
And it was okay because it was the 1st iteration and they were just telling stories and we were grateful for the story.

422
00:30:09.420 --> 00:30:11.160
Yeah, exactly.

423
00:30:11.279 --> 00:30:21.900
Now, Deep Space 9 and Voyager differentiate themselves from that by having a stronger premise, like a more particular premise.

424
00:30:21.960 --> 00:30:28.319
And we've talked before about how much fun Voyager is when it used to lean into that premise in series.

425
00:30:28.380 --> 00:30:34.079
It never leaned into it to quite the degree that Ron Moore would have liked them to do.

426
00:30:34.140 --> 00:30:35.880
But they do do it.

427
00:30:36.720 --> 00:30:47.339
But, but, but the suits are still saying no, no serialisation, no changes in the status quo, you can't do a year of hell.

428
00:30:47.400 --> 00:30:52.319
Everything has to be back to the status quo ante at the end of each episode.

429
00:30:52.380 --> 00:30:58.619
Ron Moore paints a picture of that writer's room that nobody is convinced about what they're doing.

430
00:30:58.680 --> 00:31:04.319
Everybody's depressed right in this thing because they've all got ideas and they're being straightjacketed at every corner.

431
00:31:04.380 --> 00:31:05.519
And you know what?

432
00:31:05.579 --> 00:31:08.579
I bought a book, which was all about the 1st 2 years of Voyager.

433
00:31:08.640 --> 00:31:10.799
Conception, bringing it to the screen and all this.

434
00:31:10.859 --> 00:31:16.619
And you keep getting, one, there's photographs of these sort of men in suits, in sunglasses.

435
00:31:16.680 --> 00:31:19.380
It's like the fucking X-Files with the government coming in.

436
00:31:19.440 --> 00:31:23.880
All on the set. all the time, just scrutinising everything.

437
00:31:23.940 --> 00:31:26.279
And I think it's the death of creativity.

438
00:31:26.640 --> 00:31:28.079
Yeah.

439
00:31:28.140 --> 00:31:28.799
Yeah.

440
00:31:28.920 --> 00:31:31.319
Yeah, you have to have a little bit.

441
00:31:31.380 --> 00:31:36.000
So, I mean, deep space 9 gets away with it by being overlooked.

442
00:31:36.119 --> 00:31:38.640
Yeah, so no one's looking in that direction.

443
00:31:38.700 --> 00:31:40.980
So they say, right, we're just going to do it, you know?

444
00:31:41.160 --> 00:31:45.359
Don't tell anyone, but we're doing a serialisation, all right?

445
00:31:45.420 --> 00:31:46.500
Yeah.

446
00:31:46.619 --> 00:31:59.339
But what's astonishing about Voyager then is that through the sheer grit and talent of the actors and some of the direct, things like that, that the television, that the episodes are as competent and as enjoyable as they are.

447
00:32:00.000 --> 00:32:06.779
And I think too, there is still something to be said for the sort of serialised procedural version of Star Trek.

448
00:32:06.839 --> 00:32:07.859
Oh Jesus Christ.

449
00:32:07.920 --> 00:32:09.839
This is the scene I warned you about.

450
00:32:09.900 --> 00:32:13.380
Belana Torres is meeting up with her old flame Max.

451
00:32:13.440 --> 00:32:14.819
Tom Paris is jealous.

452
00:32:14.880 --> 00:32:19.259
He calls her BLT because her favourite dinner was bacon lettuce and tomato sandwich.

453
00:32:19.259 --> 00:32:26.039
And of course, her name is... initials, but that is also a type of sandwich, a BLT.

454
00:32:26.099 --> 00:32:28.859
And but what's wrong with us?

455
00:32:28.920 --> 00:32:42.539
Like, we need not only to have it explained to us that their B'Lanas initials, we also have to have it explained to us, what a BLT is when it's a type of sandwich that you can just buy.

456
00:32:42.599 --> 00:32:44.880
Like, why are we doing that?

457
00:32:44.940 --> 00:32:47.220
And think about the jumper, Nathan.

458
00:32:47.279 --> 00:32:50.160
Oh, you still got my jumper from back in the end.

459
00:32:50.220 --> 00:32:55.799
And then to top it all off. you get Harry Kim's line, which you can't even deliver.

460
00:32:55.859 --> 00:32:59.519
You cannot even deliver the terrible...

461
00:32:59.519 --> 00:33:01.740
With any kind of shitty...

462
00:33:01.799 --> 00:33:03.900
But somewhat another actor would try.

463
00:33:03.960 --> 00:33:05.700
But he goes, no, no.

464
00:33:05.759 --> 00:33:07.259
Try with what?

465
00:33:08.099 --> 00:33:09.720
You can't make bricks without straw.

466
00:33:09.839 --> 00:33:10.980
It's dreadful.

467
00:33:11.039 --> 00:33:12.420
It's so bad.

468
00:33:12.539 --> 00:33:14.460
Like, just absurd.

469
00:33:14.519 --> 00:33:17.039
And so we're wasting time with this.

470
00:33:17.099 --> 00:33:18.180
It's so weird.

471
00:33:18.240 --> 00:33:19.440
I just don't buy any of that.

472
00:33:19.440 --> 00:33:22.259
Friendships or their romantic relationship.

473
00:33:22.259 --> 00:33:25.500
Always sounds so grumpy.

474
00:33:25.559 --> 00:33:27.000
Yeah.

475
00:33:27.839 --> 00:33:32.819
But, and like Max, like, is that humanising Max, what's happening?

476
00:33:32.819 --> 00:33:36.599
Because he's going to become the big bad by episode 2 for some reason.

477
00:33:36.660 --> 00:33:38.339
No, November.

478
00:33:38.400 --> 00:33:40.019
It's the line at the end of this episode.

479
00:33:40.079 --> 00:33:42.480
He's doing the maneuver that I showed him.

480
00:33:42.539 --> 00:33:43.440
Do you remember?

481
00:33:45.059 --> 00:33:46.799
Oh, that's right.

482
00:33:46.859 --> 00:33:52.079
And she, but she, she gets, like, he says that about her, doesn't he?

483
00:33:52.140 --> 00:33:59.400
He says, odd, because it's when they're trying to beam the field generator or whatever the hell off the ship.

484
00:33:59.460 --> 00:34:02.940
You know what I'd find more convincing is if he came on the shit, right?

485
00:34:03.000 --> 00:34:05.579
Yeah, beyond Tom Paris's back, they just fucked, you know?

486
00:34:05.640 --> 00:34:08.340
And I'd be like, okay, I believe in the relationship here.

487
00:34:08.400 --> 00:34:09.360
She's like, come on.

488
00:34:09.420 --> 00:34:11.880
I've always really fancied let's go in the turbo lift.

489
00:34:11.940 --> 00:34:15.000
Yeah, except I think that that's a waste.

490
00:34:15.059 --> 00:34:17.219
Like, this is something, isn't it?

491
00:34:17.280 --> 00:34:21.000
Like she's scared to go on the turbo lift.

492
00:34:21.059 --> 00:34:30.300
There's something, but you know what's annoying is there is no other point in voyages run where you hear electricity zipping around the turbo lift, right?

493
00:34:30.360 --> 00:34:35.880
At no other point, except for this point, where we need the sound effect that sounds just like the slimers.

494
00:34:35.940 --> 00:34:38.460
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

495
00:34:38.519 --> 00:34:39.719
Yeah.

496
00:34:39.780 --> 00:34:42.480
So, I mean, that, I don't know.

497
00:34:42.539 --> 00:34:54.539
And she's sort of saying she's scared of the turbo lift, and then later on, when they send her to crawl through a thing, they just say, oh, you'll have to keep your claustrophobia in check and she goes, oh yeah, all right, I'll do that.

498
00:34:54.599 --> 00:34:55.679
She's like what?

499
00:34:55.739 --> 00:34:59.519
You know, like, like, it's so...

500
00:34:59.519 --> 00:35:02.820
And it's a tiny face, whereas that turbo lift was quite big, you know?

501
00:35:02.880 --> 00:35:06.059
Yeah, it's really, really in there, isn't it?

502
00:35:06.119 --> 00:35:12.539
Where was you remember when we made a thing of that in By Inferno's Light when Garak and Marcel and Wolf go?

503
00:35:12.599 --> 00:35:14.639
It takes a brave man to face his fears, you know.

504
00:35:15.780 --> 00:35:17.820
Yeah, but he's scared.

505
00:35:17.880 --> 00:35:20.579
You know, they don't switch off the claustrophobic.

506
00:35:20.639 --> 00:35:21.840
Switching, isn't he?

507
00:35:21.900 --> 00:35:23.820
He's talking to him to do it for plot reasons.

508
00:35:24.119 --> 00:35:27.480
They're just not working on the same level, though, are they?

509
00:35:27.599 --> 00:35:28.559
In terms of characterisation?

510
00:35:28.619 --> 00:35:29.219
No.

511
00:35:29.280 --> 00:35:30.179
No.

512
00:35:30.719 --> 00:35:33.000
Oh, dear.

513
00:35:33.059 --> 00:35:34.860
I knew we were going to have fun talking about this, you know.

514
00:35:34.920 --> 00:35:36.900
I knew it was gonna be...

515
00:35:37.679 --> 00:35:55.079
And so, so all of this stuff, like now that I'm watching it again, where they're looking really shifty, and it's 2 men looking really shifty, while, you know, the, I mean, you know, naturally Tim Russ doesn't have any lines.

516
00:35:55.139 --> 00:36:01.199
So it's 2 women, um, you know, talking about it and they're looking shifty and they're talking about how to deal with the slimes and stuff.

517
00:36:01.260 --> 00:36:06.179
Whereas these guys are clearly looking guilty because they know what it is they're talking about.

518
00:36:06.239 --> 00:36:10.380
Oh, and because Savage is ransom savage.

519
00:36:10.440 --> 00:36:13.739
Ransom is lying here too, isn't he?

520
00:36:13.800 --> 00:36:18.360
Yeah, it's... heartheartedly trying to cover his tracks at this point.

521
00:36:18.420 --> 00:36:19.139
Yeah.

522
00:36:19.139 --> 00:36:23.099
No, he's trying to get them from going into the research lab.

523
00:36:23.159 --> 00:36:25.679
So he says it's full of thermionic radiation.

524
00:36:25.739 --> 00:36:29.099
Oh, I do like it when they blast the shit out of a set like this.

525
00:36:29.159 --> 00:36:30.480
Look all that debris everywhere.

526
00:36:30.539 --> 00:36:30.900
Yeah.

527
00:36:30.900 --> 00:36:36.059
I actually like those the consoles that they're standing out there sort of big and hefty.

528
00:36:36.119 --> 00:36:38.159
I think that's quite a decent bridge set.

529
00:36:38.219 --> 00:36:40.199
And I quote a line that I just heard.

530
00:36:40.380 --> 00:36:41.579
I know it's going to annoy you a lot.

531
00:36:41.639 --> 00:36:42.539
Yeah.

532
00:36:42.599 --> 00:36:49.500
He goes, so how are we going to catch these fits, these fish, and she goes, we're going to have to build a net.

533
00:36:49.619 --> 00:36:51.300
I'm like, oh, gosh, really?

534
00:36:54.239 --> 00:36:57.719
They did say they were exhausted, the writers, remember.

535
00:36:58.679 --> 00:37:00.719
Yeah, yeah.

536
00:37:00.780 --> 00:37:07.320
So here we get the thing where we're comparing notes on what's happening and...

537
00:37:07.380 --> 00:37:09.539
It should have been a lot more fun than it was, though, right?

538
00:37:09.599 --> 00:37:15.420
She goes, well, you know, she should have said, oh, I came up against a VR version of fear, you know, that was Michael McKeon.

539
00:37:15.480 --> 00:37:16.920
Yeah, played by Michael McKean.

540
00:37:16.980 --> 00:37:17.159
Yeah.

541
00:37:17.219 --> 00:37:21.420
No, so he has 39 crew die in the 1st week.

542
00:37:21.480 --> 00:37:37.079
So half of his crew are dead at the, at, you know, and not, not like, you know, the medical officer on Voyager dies or whatever, the 2nd in command, but like half of his crew are killed by hostile aliens.

543
00:37:37.139 --> 00:37:39.000
Uh, and...

544
00:37:39.000 --> 00:37:41.519
I don't know.

545
00:37:41.579 --> 00:37:44.340
I just don't think the debate they end up having.

546
00:37:44.400 --> 00:37:48.119
They've had such different experiences in it. regardless of what he's done.

547
00:37:48.179 --> 00:37:51.059
They have had completely different experiences in the Dow Quadron.

548
00:37:51.119 --> 00:37:54.360
So, she can't really condemn him.

549
00:37:54.420 --> 00:37:56.039
I don't think.

550
00:37:56.219 --> 00:37:56.760
Oh, she can.

551
00:37:56.820 --> 00:37:58.079
It's it's a mess.

552
00:37:58.139 --> 00:37:58.739
I don't like it.

553
00:37:58.800 --> 00:38:01.320
You know, it doesn't matter where you're sitting.

554
00:38:01.380 --> 00:38:03.300
It's a bunch of cows.

555
00:38:04.079 --> 00:38:06.179
But it isn't, is it?

556
00:38:06.239 --> 00:38:07.079
Like, that's the thing.

557
00:38:07.139 --> 00:38:08.400
And that's a discovery.

558
00:38:08.699 --> 00:38:13.079
They're not just, it's not that they're monsters attacking us because they're monsters.

559
00:38:13.139 --> 00:38:16.679
They are attacking us because we've been killing them, you know?

560
00:38:16.739 --> 00:38:20.519
Do you think about the lesser species when you sink your teeth into a lamb chop?

561
00:38:20.639 --> 00:38:22.139
No, sometimes.

562
00:38:22.199 --> 00:38:40.860
Like, I think that there's, look, I think that there's really, really strong moral arguments for vegetarianism, and I think that as human beings, we kill 10s of 1000000000s of animals a year to feed ourselves, and we don't believe that.

563
00:38:40.920 --> 00:38:42.059
I just taste so good.

564
00:38:42.119 --> 00:38:43.619
Yeah that's right.

565
00:38:43.679 --> 00:38:45.059
They're made of meat.

566
00:38:46.199 --> 00:38:50.039
Now, look, this sign's very important, you know, this sign.

567
00:38:50.099 --> 00:38:51.599
He's picking up the equinox side.

568
00:38:51.659 --> 00:38:56.159
And in the 2nd episode, we have a very similar scene, don't we, between JY and Chakotay?

569
00:38:56.219 --> 00:38:59.280
A bad scene between Janeway and Jakota.

570
00:38:59.340 --> 00:39:00.000
We'll get it.

571
00:39:00.000 --> 00:39:03.539
This is where we 1st get them actually talking.

572
00:39:03.599 --> 00:39:06.480
So this is when we 1st find out what the deal is.

573
00:39:06.599 --> 00:39:11.699
This is the stuff I love, all this sort of clandestine conversations, you know, we're going to make our move soon, Nathan.

574
00:39:11.820 --> 00:39:12.179
All right.

575
00:39:12.239 --> 00:39:14.639
The podcast audience won't suspect a thing.

576
00:39:15.480 --> 00:39:19.440
But I actually, I like this episode for this reason.

577
00:39:19.500 --> 00:39:20.639
You know, we get together.

578
00:39:20.699 --> 00:39:21.719
There's a new ship.

579
00:39:21.780 --> 00:39:22.559
The ship looks really great.

580
00:39:22.980 --> 00:39:26.400
We discover some new things about the Delta Quadrant.

581
00:39:26.460 --> 00:39:27.840
We're meeting new people.

582
00:39:27.900 --> 00:39:29.579
We're getting to know them, all of that.

583
00:39:29.639 --> 00:39:31.139
I think that's all quite fun.

584
00:39:31.380 --> 00:39:34.800
And I like this as well.

585
00:39:34.860 --> 00:39:36.780
Like, I kind of like this.

586
00:39:36.840 --> 00:39:42.059
I just wish that the villains weren't such boring white men. don't know.

587
00:39:43.260 --> 00:39:45.960
This guy is pretty good too, Max.

588
00:39:46.019 --> 00:39:49.980
He's got a kind of thing about him, don't you think?

589
00:39:50.039 --> 00:39:51.539
In a sort of white bread way.

590
00:39:51.599 --> 00:39:52.380
He's kind of cute.

591
00:39:52.440 --> 00:39:53.280
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

592
00:39:53.340 --> 00:39:54.840
So here's Rick Worthy.

593
00:39:54.900 --> 00:39:56.820
And I think he's really great.

594
00:39:56.880 --> 00:40:06.659
I did try and find out as much about his personal life as I possibly could because I think he's a good looking man, and there's nothing...

595
00:40:06.719 --> 00:40:12.719
No, no, but I was kind of, you know, searching the internet for any information about him.

596
00:40:12.780 --> 00:40:15.059
If we were doing this now, private man.

597
00:40:15.119 --> 00:40:17.760
If we were doing this story now, equinox, yeah.

598
00:40:17.940 --> 00:40:25.380
I think it would run like, I don't know, half a season and they would integrate with the crew and the shocks would come way later.

599
00:40:25.440 --> 00:40:26.400
Yeah.

600
00:40:26.460 --> 00:40:27.119
Yeah.

601
00:40:27.179 --> 00:40:27.539
Yeah.

602
00:40:27.599 --> 00:40:30.179
Because it's Star Trek Border, John, we got to get to the point.

603
00:40:30.179 --> 00:40:34.380
So we can get back to, you know, turning the crew evil or whatever we're going to do next week.

604
00:40:34.500 --> 00:40:45.539
Well, so I think, you know, given that we have these short seasons now, I think that that it, you know, the season becomes about this.

605
00:40:45.599 --> 00:40:47.099
Do you know what I mean?

606
00:40:47.159 --> 00:40:51.539
Like this could propeller season, I think, of sort of 10 episodes.

607
00:40:51.599 --> 00:40:53.519
It's like what they did in Discovery with...

608
00:40:53.579 --> 00:41:00.840
I mean, it's a different story, but it's they introduced a character that was one thing, Vox, Tyler, in Discovery, you know?

609
00:41:00.900 --> 00:41:09.239
And then they waited half a season before they dropped that he was... the enemy and then did shocking and interesting things with it.

610
00:41:09.300 --> 00:41:10.320
Yeah.

611
00:41:10.380 --> 00:41:52.679
Whereas, whereas I think that if we want to do something that can just be watched on its own terms, and that, that isn't serialised and all of that, that the right approach is strangely worlds, and strangely worlds, isn't serialised, uh, at all, really, you know, like from one episode to the other things can be very different indeed, but every previously on, is a montage of clips of the characters interacting with each other because the things that they do and say to one another have an effect and continue to matter from episode to episode.

612
00:41:52.739 --> 00:41:54.900
And that's what we're invested.

613
00:41:54.960 --> 00:41:56.519
Yes, exactly right.

614
00:41:56.579 --> 00:41:59.099
We're invested in them after what?

615
00:41:59.159 --> 00:42:00.300
How many episodes have we had?

616
00:42:00.360 --> 00:42:00.780
20?

617
00:42:01.019 --> 00:42:07.019
invest myself and these people who reset every single week and forget the lessons they learned right.

618
00:42:07.019 --> 00:42:08.579
Exactly.

619
00:42:08.639 --> 00:42:13.860
And they don't have to be referring all the time to what they do what they did last week.

620
00:42:13.920 --> 00:42:25.980
But it's absolutely indefensible that 2 years apart, we have this massive leadership crisis between Chakotay and Janeway.

621
00:42:26.039 --> 00:42:37.739
It's not, you know, we're not mentioning 8472 now because people might not have watched that and so we can't mention it and we, you know, like, and we never learn from this.

622
00:42:37.800 --> 00:42:41.460
We're doing a huge giant thing that's just swept under the rug at the end of the episode.

623
00:42:41.519 --> 00:42:47.039
They want to sort of flirt with making the captain commander relationship really interesting.

624
00:42:47.099 --> 00:42:49.079
I just can't follow through.

625
00:42:49.139 --> 00:42:54.719
But the DS1 approach was to have Cisco and Kira, so it's a man and a woman again.

626
00:42:54.900 --> 00:43:01.739
And she's his religious icon, you know, and that's, and so there's so many interesting things and they do.

627
00:43:01.800 --> 00:43:02.460
They explore it.

628
00:43:02.820 --> 00:43:04.980
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

629
00:43:05.039 --> 00:43:12.599
You know, I was just thinking there, you know, like, you know, the 15th time that a wormhole turns up and Harry Kim gets really excited.

630
00:43:12.659 --> 00:43:18.539
Someone should just say, Harry, have you not learned from the last 14 times a wormhole came along?

631
00:43:18.539 --> 00:43:21.119
And it went spectacularly badly.

632
00:43:21.659 --> 00:43:24.000
That's the frustration for me.

633
00:43:24.360 --> 00:43:25.860
Yeah.

634
00:43:25.920 --> 00:43:27.059
Yeah, yeah.

635
00:43:27.119 --> 00:43:30.059
I mean, he's so obviously evil in this scene as well.

636
00:43:30.119 --> 00:43:33.239
He's got his little pad there downloading from engineering.

637
00:43:33.360 --> 00:43:41.880
In fact, in the foreground of that shot earlier, it just is flashing download in progress in large red letters on the screen.

638
00:43:42.179 --> 00:43:46.500
What he should have said is when she goes, oh yeah, it's Tom Paris.

639
00:43:46.559 --> 00:43:49.019
He should have gone, oh, you're going out with him.

640
00:43:49.079 --> 00:43:49.860
Really?

641
00:43:49.920 --> 00:43:52.019
Like your standards of drops.

642
00:43:53.219 --> 00:43:57.599
So, and they're going to go out to dinner together or something tonight.

643
00:43:57.659 --> 00:43:58.320
Is that it?

644
00:43:58.380 --> 00:43:59.460
Like a blah, blah, blah.

645
00:43:59.519 --> 00:44:01.920
But like, I mean, it's just so shit as well.

646
00:44:01.980 --> 00:44:06.300
An old boyfriend just happens to be one of the few surviving members of the equinox crew.

647
00:44:06.300 --> 00:44:09.239
Just to inject a little bit of character in this, you know.

648
00:44:09.300 --> 00:44:12.840
But there's they've got that's the problem, isn't it?

649
00:44:12.900 --> 00:44:27.179
Like this is kind of using up time. that could have been devoted to examining what they had done, you know, and how they felt about what they were doing.

650
00:44:27.239 --> 00:44:30.119
We get a sense of that from Marla.

651
00:44:30.179 --> 00:44:36.599
We get a sense from Marla that she feels bad about what's happened.

652
00:44:36.659 --> 00:44:42.300
But then when everyone breaks out of Voyager and heads back to the equinox.

653
00:44:42.360 --> 00:44:44.400
She goes with them, but we don't know why.

654
00:44:44.460 --> 00:44:49.980
With no hint of like that she doesn't think it's the right thing to do.

655
00:44:50.039 --> 00:44:51.119
You know, she's like, right.

656
00:44:51.179 --> 00:44:52.739
I'm there, captain, I'll be behind you.

657
00:44:52.800 --> 00:44:53.219
Let's go.

658
00:44:53.280 --> 00:44:56.460
So do we understand that she was bunging it on earlier?

659
00:44:56.519 --> 00:44:58.920
Like she was saying all that for their benefit.

660
00:44:58.980 --> 00:45:02.039
But then that sounds just interpreting it. not there in the text.

661
00:45:02.099 --> 00:45:04.739
No, because no one's, no one's thinking about it.

662
00:45:04.860 --> 00:45:07.320
No one who's writing this is thinking about any of this.

663
00:45:07.380 --> 00:45:08.699
Straighting, isn't it?

664
00:45:10.079 --> 00:45:21.300
And so we have that holodeck thing, which is being introduced, which will play a big part in part 2 and it's very bad, I think.

665
00:45:21.360 --> 00:45:36.420
I think the part it plays in part 2 is very, very bad because there's one interesting thing that happens in part two, which is that ransom starts to regret what he's done, but he doesn't do that for any reason as far as I can tell.

666
00:45:36.480 --> 00:45:39.360
I think it's just because he fancies 7 of nine, you know.

667
00:45:39.420 --> 00:45:44.039
In those very bizarre scenes where they're hanging out on virtual reality beach.

668
00:45:44.099 --> 00:45:46.500
It's ridiculous. very bad, I think.

669
00:45:46.559 --> 00:45:52.019
I can just see Ron Moore tearing his hair out going, why are we doing virtual reality with 7 or 9?

670
00:45:52.079 --> 00:45:53.519
Oh, because she'll look pretty.

671
00:45:53.579 --> 00:45:55.440
She'll look pretty on the beach, wouldn't she?

672
00:45:55.500 --> 00:45:56.639
They look great on the screen.

673
00:45:57.300 --> 00:45:58.619
Okay.

674
00:45:58.619 --> 00:45:59.880
Here's Naomi.

675
00:45:59.880 --> 00:46:01.320
Oh, Nathan, save me.

676
00:46:01.440 --> 00:46:02.880
Hello.

677
00:46:02.940 --> 00:46:05.340
I'm Ambassador Wildman. pleased to meet you.

678
00:46:05.639 --> 00:46:09.360
And I think that's kind of cute and it humanises her.

679
00:46:09.420 --> 00:46:10.800
Well, you would, wouldn't you?

680
00:46:10.860 --> 00:46:16.500
Except, so, like, I mean, you know, like, I'm quite happy she's a little girl.

681
00:46:16.559 --> 00:46:18.539
It's nice having a little girl on the Enterprise, whatever.

682
00:46:18.599 --> 00:46:20.639
But we have this conversation.

683
00:46:20.699 --> 00:46:25.800
She says something about how she felt when she was her age.

684
00:46:25.860 --> 00:46:30.420
No, or her nephew's the same age and you kind of go, the same age.

685
00:46:30.480 --> 00:46:31.139
Like, what?

686
00:46:31.199 --> 00:46:32.280
How old is she?

687
00:46:32.340 --> 00:46:34.079
She's 3 isn't she?

688
00:46:34.199 --> 00:46:36.059
Like, when is she born?

689
00:46:36.119 --> 00:46:41.280
We've been in the Delta Quadrant for 5 years, we say it in Thailand. of course.

690
00:46:41.340 --> 00:46:42.300
Yeah, that's terrible.

691
00:46:42.360 --> 00:46:44.159
I didn't even notice this episode.

692
00:46:44.639 --> 00:46:48.119
Remember, Nathan, they weren't exhausted.

693
00:46:48.179 --> 00:46:48.420
Okay?

694
00:46:48.480 --> 00:46:49.619
Yeah, yeah.

695
00:46:49.679 --> 00:46:50.280
No, no.

696
00:46:50.340 --> 00:46:57.239
We pull the same shit with Alexander who grows up like a soap opera character because babies are boring and you can't write stories about them.

697
00:46:57.239 --> 00:46:59.639
And, you know, that's why it's happening.

698
00:46:59.699 --> 00:47:03.119
But like it grows like a decade, you know, in one year.

699
00:47:04.380 --> 00:47:09.059
But I'll tell you what, thank God we got rid of fucking Brian Bosnell.

700
00:47:09.300 --> 00:47:11.340
Yes, by this.

701
00:47:11.400 --> 00:47:11.639
Yes.

702
00:47:11.699 --> 00:47:13.139
I'll say, here we go.

703
00:47:13.199 --> 00:47:18.840
The equinox crew now, in their dark, dingy set, you know, scheming amongst themselves.

704
00:47:18.900 --> 00:47:19.800
I like all this.

705
00:47:20.460 --> 00:47:23.099
We can't let Voyager stop us now.

706
00:47:23.159 --> 00:47:37.380
And so no one here is saying, actually, the people on Voyager are well fed and uh, you know, uh, not living the way that we've been living for the past 5 years.

707
00:47:37.440 --> 00:47:41.340
You know, they're still far from home, but they have each other.

708
00:47:42.000 --> 00:47:45.960
Maybe we could stop murdering people.

709
00:47:46.019 --> 00:47:48.780
Yeah, that's exactly what she should have happened.

710
00:47:48.840 --> 00:47:53.039
And there's no, but no, no one, no one even brings it up as a possibility.

711
00:47:53.400 --> 00:47:56.340
You know, like no one even suggests it.

712
00:47:56.400 --> 00:48:02.579
All they're doing is functional dialogue about power couplings and shit.

713
00:48:02.639 --> 00:48:05.460
And this is the stuff that Ron Moore was complaining about, wasn't it?

714
00:48:05.519 --> 00:48:11.579
We're going to stand around and explain the plans which we're about to see happening.

715
00:48:11.639 --> 00:48:21.420
Like, it's not like we're going to be mystified as to why they behave in a certain way in a little while and we needed this scene, but they're happy to write that sort of dialogue.

716
00:48:21.480 --> 00:48:26.940
It's the one point where they could so easily have made the right call and choose not to.

717
00:48:27.000 --> 00:48:27.300
Yeah.

718
00:48:27.300 --> 00:48:27.539
Yeah.

719
00:48:27.599 --> 00:48:34.800
Whereas they do they do at least paint the picture that when they did the terrible thing in the past, they were in a corner, you know?

720
00:48:34.860 --> 00:48:36.119
So they made a decision.

721
00:48:36.179 --> 00:48:40.739
It was the wrong decision, but they made that decision because there was, they felt there was no other way.

722
00:48:40.800 --> 00:48:43.380
Well, here they can just say, do you know what, Captain?

723
00:48:43.440 --> 00:48:44.699
I did this terrible thing.

724
00:48:44.820 --> 00:48:46.980
I want to join forces with your crew.

725
00:48:47.039 --> 00:48:53.940
I want, I will go into a sale because I did a terrible thing against the prime directive and my crew can integrate with yours and let's all go.

726
00:48:53.940 --> 00:48:54.659
Prime directive.

727
00:48:54.719 --> 00:48:58.019
Like, whatever is something... about not murdering.

728
00:48:58.079 --> 00:49:03.480
This is where he basically becomes a supervillain because he just decides, no, no, no, we're going to get home.

729
00:49:03.539 --> 00:49:07.019
We're going to leave them there and we're going to murder a load of people just because we can.

730
00:49:07.139 --> 00:49:15.480
And and like, but like no one is thinking about anything beyond the action that we want to have happen on screen.

731
00:49:15.539 --> 00:49:21.179
And so no one's looking at the characters and going, what are you thinking now, what do you want now?

732
00:49:21.239 --> 00:49:23.820
What do you think of what ransom is saying?

733
00:49:23.880 --> 00:49:26.699
None of that stuff is happening at all.

734
00:49:26.760 --> 00:49:29.699
So you got to remember, Ron Moore's not involved at this point.

735
00:49:29.760 --> 00:49:31.500
He doesn't come in until next series.

736
00:49:31.559 --> 00:49:35.519
So he's probably flicking through this script and he's on his sick whiskey bar now.

737
00:49:36.780 --> 00:49:42.780
And he's got a load of notes that's longer than the script itself going, why does that go?

738
00:49:42.840 --> 00:49:44.579
Who's, I don't understand any of this.

739
00:49:45.179 --> 00:49:49.920
So he has an idea of what to do with this.

740
00:49:51.179 --> 00:49:53.280
Oh, here we go.

741
00:49:53.340 --> 00:49:56.639
So we send the doctor in because he can cope with the thermionic radiation.

742
00:49:56.699 --> 00:49:58.079
Do you know what that works?

743
00:49:58.079 --> 00:49:59.639
That makes the discovery now.

744
00:49:59.699 --> 00:50:00.659
Yeah, yeah.

745
00:50:00.719 --> 00:50:04.500
And I think the discoveries like it properly shocking as well.

746
00:50:05.159 --> 00:50:11.940
I do think they shouldn't have been acting suspicious before this point. to make this twist land.

747
00:50:12.000 --> 00:50:14.760
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, of course.

748
00:50:15.239 --> 00:50:16.980
They were tired.

749
00:50:18.239 --> 00:50:21.300
The writers, the actors, the director.

750
00:50:21.960 --> 00:50:30.119
But there is a sort of Star Trek, there's a sort of straightforwardness, like the fact that they're not doing anything too interesting with the script.

751
00:50:30.119 --> 00:50:35.219
And you, you know, so it's just being revealed to us in the order that it happens or whatever.

752
00:50:35.280 --> 00:50:36.360
But you're right.

753
00:50:36.420 --> 00:50:38.940
They hold off for a while.

754
00:50:39.000 --> 00:50:45.179
I mean, how far into the episode, are we, with 30 minutes in?

755
00:50:45.239 --> 00:50:55.320
So they hold off to about sort of 20, you know, about halfway through the episode and then we have that conversation in the mess hall where it becomes clear that they're bad guys.

756
00:50:56.579 --> 00:51:05.820
But we've spoiled it by having that big dumb conversation where they all stand around talking and it would have been better to have just waited, wouldn't it?

757
00:51:05.880 --> 00:51:06.599
That's exactly it.

758
00:51:06.659 --> 00:51:17.039
We should have just waited. half an hour of them being, you know, like, oh, thank God we found you. and the captain being charming as hell and having lovely scenes with Janeway and all of this.

759
00:51:17.099 --> 00:51:19.320
But just with a few hints that something's gone wrong.

760
00:51:19.380 --> 00:51:24.719
Maybe a bit of dialogue here or there when something doesn't make sense. and you can have music going, I can discover.

761
00:51:24.780 --> 00:51:28.199
I couldn't help you notice you said about, da, da, you know, something like that.

762
00:51:28.260 --> 00:51:29.519
And then the twist is.

763
00:51:29.579 --> 00:51:29.940
Yeah.

764
00:51:30.000 --> 00:51:35.099
But also, I think the techno babble in this scene is fighting against it as well.

765
00:51:35.159 --> 00:51:42.420
The more he talks about nucleonic energy and and, you know, fucking cellular base pairs and all of that sort of thing.

766
00:51:42.480 --> 00:51:48.420
And the less we hear, they're murdering people in order to get home quicker.

767
00:51:48.480 --> 00:51:50.880
Like it's never put in those terms.

768
00:51:50.940 --> 00:51:53.460
We're left to kind of deduce that.

769
00:51:53.519 --> 00:51:55.739
James says, doesn't she?

770
00:51:55.800 --> 00:51:58.860
Yeah, but the doctor...

771
00:51:58.920 --> 00:52:01.980
We we need to discover that.

772
00:52:02.039 --> 00:52:06.840
We need to discover that and it needs to be talked about in normal human English.

773
00:52:06.900 --> 00:52:12.000
And because there's some weird CGI creature terribly rendered in that set.

774
00:52:12.059 --> 00:52:15.000
It doesn't have the visceral impact it needs either.

775
00:52:15.059 --> 00:52:19.260
Yeah, but I do think that that makes it a little bit more interesting as well.

776
00:52:19.320 --> 00:52:22.440
You know, like, well, it's a bit weird, yeah.

777
00:52:22.500 --> 00:52:24.239
Well, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

778
00:52:24.300 --> 00:52:26.699
But I mean, the thing is, you know, we're Starfleet.

779
00:52:26.760 --> 00:52:29.099
She's got a bit of silly party on her desk.

780
00:52:29.159 --> 00:52:31.139
She's going...

781
00:52:31.199 --> 00:52:31.920
This poor creature.

782
00:52:34.260 --> 00:52:36.719
Oh, dear, oh.

783
00:52:36.780 --> 00:52:38.760
Oh, do you know, I thought this was the bear of the two, you know?

784
00:52:40.739 --> 00:52:42.960
Oh no, I think it is.

785
00:52:43.019 --> 00:52:48.059
And look, he says he admits, how many lines would it take, does he say?

786
00:52:48.119 --> 00:52:52.079
Because it's like 63 or 71 or something like it's a big number.

787
00:52:52.139 --> 00:52:53.280
63.

788
00:52:53.460 --> 00:52:53.760
There you go.

789
00:52:53.880 --> 00:52:57.300
Can I ask you, would you want to see Jamo put in that situation?

790
00:52:57.420 --> 00:52:59.880
Like the situation that Ransom was in?

791
00:52:59.940 --> 00:53:00.179
No.

792
00:53:00.239 --> 00:53:01.019
No.

793
00:53:01.079 --> 00:53:01.679
Why?

794
00:53:01.739 --> 00:53:02.400
No.

795
00:53:02.519 --> 00:53:18.059
Um, because, uh, just because, uh, you know, like, I think killing Senator Renak, who gives a shit, I've said that before, but, like, um, you know, torturing people...

796
00:53:18.059 --> 00:53:20.159
The Gem Haddan at the end of the show.

797
00:53:20.219 --> 00:53:24.420
Yeah, where they're forced to do it by the vorta.

798
00:53:24.480 --> 00:53:26.579
Yeah, but I don't think this.

799
00:53:26.639 --> 00:53:27.420
Do you know what I mean?

800
00:53:27.480 --> 00:53:36.659
This is deliberately set up as, you know, maybe understandable, but like, holy fuck, what are you doing?

801
00:53:36.719 --> 00:53:45.179
Like, even this, we hadn't eaten in 16 days and like, so is then is it okay to kill 63 people?

802
00:53:45.179 --> 00:53:49.679
Like, like, it just seems, you know, it doesn't seem quite good enough.

803
00:53:49.739 --> 00:53:51.420
And why are we wasting our time with this?

804
00:53:51.480 --> 00:53:53.579
Oh, look at the flashback.

805
00:53:53.760 --> 00:53:55.139
Yeah.

806
00:53:55.199 --> 00:53:56.340
Where do they how much?

807
00:53:56.400 --> 00:53:56.820
How many?

808
00:53:56.940 --> 00:53:59.340
I think it's probably a 7 or eight.

809
00:53:59.400 --> 00:54:00.659
Yeah, we're around that part.

810
00:54:00.780 --> 00:54:02.400
They still got big holes all over their faces.

811
00:54:02.699 --> 00:54:08.159
I like the one who comes on board in the in the in the 2nd episode.

812
00:54:08.219 --> 00:54:14.219
God bless them, because they're doing both the exposition that we normally get. you know, the dreadful story and we're seeing it as well.

813
00:54:14.340 --> 00:54:19.199
Actually, a flashback is actually a little bit unusual, don't you think, Voyager?

814
00:54:19.260 --> 00:54:19.739
quite nice.

815
00:54:19.800 --> 00:54:20.039
Yeah.

816
00:54:20.099 --> 00:54:25.800
And it's not just a flashback of the one moment they made the back or anything like that, where it sounds like a small narrative.

817
00:54:25.920 --> 00:54:27.300
Yeah.

818
00:54:27.360 --> 00:54:28.199
Yeah.

819
00:54:28.199 --> 00:54:28.920
Look again.

820
00:54:28.980 --> 00:54:30.539
Look at that creature with his hands together.

821
00:54:30.599 --> 00:54:31.860
Yeah.

822
00:54:32.159 --> 00:54:34.380
I don't think we need this.

823
00:54:34.559 --> 00:54:36.239
Don't you think?

824
00:54:36.300 --> 00:54:38.340
We don't, we do.

825
00:54:38.400 --> 00:54:40.380
No, I don't think we need to.

826
00:54:40.440 --> 00:54:45.719
No, normally they would just tell the story, the tell, you know, it would just be dialogue, and that would be fine.

827
00:54:46.019 --> 00:54:47.940
Yeah, no, no, no.

828
00:54:48.000 --> 00:54:57.780
I mean, I just don't think it, we, like, if the, even the dialogue is going to be so long, we definitely in the flashback, that's too boring, but we don't need a long speed.

829
00:54:57.840 --> 00:55:01.679
No, because do you remember Decker in the Doomsday machine?

830
00:55:01.800 --> 00:55:06.840
Well, we didn't see any of it and he just told us the story, but the camera just straight into speech.

831
00:55:06.900 --> 00:55:08.519
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

832
00:55:09.599 --> 00:55:15.960
Yeah, and like this, it's easy to cling to principles when you're, you know, when your bulkheads are intact.

833
00:55:16.019 --> 00:55:23.039
And it's just like, well, but we're not just talking about the prime directive or wearing our uniforms neatly.

834
00:55:23.099 --> 00:55:25.559
We're talking about murdering 63 people.

835
00:55:25.619 --> 00:55:27.000
You know, like...

836
00:55:27.000 --> 00:55:31.980
Like, I think she's going to sharp during this seater.

837
00:55:32.099 --> 00:55:34.440
Because you know we're awful.

838
00:55:36.179 --> 00:55:39.000
I would like to see Janeway in that position.

839
00:55:39.059 --> 00:55:41.460
I think maybe I could judge him then.

840
00:55:41.579 --> 00:55:43.920
No, no, no, no.

841
00:55:43.980 --> 00:55:47.099
Because I think just wouldn't dare to do that.

842
00:55:47.099 --> 00:55:52.380
It wouldn't dare to her in a morally compromising situation like that.

843
00:55:52.440 --> 00:55:56.880
And I think that what they've done is too bad.

844
00:55:58.199 --> 00:56:00.659
I think what they've done is too bad.

845
00:56:00.719 --> 00:56:03.960
I wonder if it's the execution for me then.

846
00:56:04.019 --> 00:56:06.420
Because it doesn't seem that bad to me.

847
00:56:06.480 --> 00:56:07.260
What they've done.

848
00:56:08.219 --> 00:56:13.440
So I think it's the execution because I don't want to keep going like labouring the point.

849
00:56:13.500 --> 00:56:21.719
It's just that those inoffensive little creatures like lambs in the field, you know, like it just doesn't, it doesn't seem like such a big deal, yeah.

850
00:56:22.559 --> 00:56:26.400
If it was the Beaumar, you know, that they were collecting up.

851
00:56:28.199 --> 00:56:31.320
I think Matt, what is it, he says again?

852
00:56:31.380 --> 00:56:34.079
I get translators malfunctioning.

853
00:56:34.139 --> 00:56:36.239
You know, and then he murdered a lot of them to get home.

854
00:56:36.300 --> 00:56:36.840
Maybe.

855
00:56:36.900 --> 00:56:37.860
Yeah, that'd be all right.

856
00:56:37.920 --> 00:56:38.880
I think that'd be okay.

857
00:56:38.940 --> 00:56:47.099
But one of the things about Star Trek is that you discover that these strange creatures are more than you thought they were.

858
00:56:47.159 --> 00:56:52.199
You know, all the way back to the devil in the dark where the monster just ends up being a mother.

859
00:56:52.260 --> 00:57:17.219
You know, Star Trek has always been about discovering, like including more and more people into our moral community, into the group of people that we are bound to treat well, and just because these are weird looking CGI creatures, that doesn't mean that killing them isn't murder.

860
00:57:17.280 --> 00:57:19.500
If they were animals, yeah, sure.

861
00:57:19.559 --> 00:57:23.639
But if, and maybe does it sell enough that they're sent in?

862
00:57:23.699 --> 00:57:24.239
I don't know.

863
00:57:24.300 --> 00:57:31.260
I was just taking it that they were people because that's what the script seemed to be and what Janeway seemed to be saying.

864
00:57:31.320 --> 00:57:38.340
I just, I, I just wonder if, if anybody in the position of kill or be killed.

865
00:57:38.400 --> 00:57:40.380
That you would just make that call.

866
00:57:40.440 --> 00:57:51.059
Oh, yeah, but I think, I think when it comes to like kill or, you know, vivisect a whole bunch of people and then develop a plan and then put them in the thing, do you know what I mean?

867
00:57:51.119 --> 00:57:53.460
By the time you're putting things into chambers to kill them.

868
00:57:53.519 --> 00:57:56.099
I think it's not quite self-defence at that point.

869
00:57:56.159 --> 00:57:59.639
I didn't show you the seller while you were here then, you know?

870
00:57:59.820 --> 00:58:03.480
But it's also like, oh, this.

871
00:58:03.539 --> 00:58:04.440
Sorry to interrupt you.

872
00:58:04.500 --> 00:58:06.960
We're doing the evil doctor again.

873
00:58:08.460 --> 00:58:11.579
And it's an episode.

874
00:58:11.639 --> 00:58:15.840
I love how easily evil doctor fools our doctor.

875
00:58:15.900 --> 00:58:17.519
Taps his arm, like this.

876
00:58:17.579 --> 00:58:19.260
Look, look, look, no, no.

877
00:58:19.320 --> 00:58:21.599
He just hits him with he just hits him with his pad.

878
00:58:21.659 --> 00:58:22.139
Watch.

879
00:58:22.199 --> 00:58:22.619
Whee.

880
00:58:22.679 --> 00:58:23.639
Oh, there it goes.

881
00:58:27.119 --> 00:58:32.400
And it's a chance for Robert Picardo to chew the scenery, but we have seen it all before.

882
00:58:32.760 --> 00:58:35.400
I think it's really shit.

883
00:58:35.460 --> 00:58:47.039
And I think we've seen it all before in descent part two, where, you know, you have data torturing Geordie in exactly the same way.

884
00:58:47.099 --> 00:58:49.139
Yes, I think icky, isn't it?

885
00:58:49.199 --> 00:58:49.920
What he does to say?

886
00:58:49.980 --> 00:58:50.280
Yeah.

887
00:58:50.340 --> 00:58:52.139
It's yeah, it's not fun.

888
00:58:52.199 --> 00:58:54.840
And how that's hand waved at the end as well.

889
00:58:54.900 --> 00:58:55.980
They have a scene at the end.

890
00:58:56.039 --> 00:59:08.460
It's just like, oh, well, I think their scene is super off putting and weird, but it's a lot better than the really shitty scene with Janeway and Chakotay at the end.

891
00:59:08.519 --> 00:59:17.880
I think I think the problem here is that You have people making moral choices.

892
00:59:18.300 --> 00:59:23.639
You know, is it all right for Janeway to torture Rick Worthy?

893
00:59:23.699 --> 00:59:27.780
Is it okay to kill a bunch of people because you want to get home?

894
00:59:27.840 --> 00:59:39.360
And then the doctor who becomes evil for just space reasons because ransom says Siri make the doctor evil and he just becomes evil.

895
00:59:39.420 --> 00:59:45.840
And so that just undermines everything, you know, like ethical subroutines.

896
00:59:45.960 --> 00:59:49.139
You know, like, and it's not even hard.

897
00:59:49.199 --> 00:59:56.519
You don't even have to do something difficult to get the doctor to like, why would you even have like a security issue?

898
00:59:56.880 --> 01:00:02.940
Like, that would that would mean there is a there is a situation where they're not needed because they need to be turned off.

899
01:00:03.179 --> 01:00:04.559
Yeah.

900
01:00:04.619 --> 01:00:07.619
It's just like, no, sorry, we don't those don't turn off.

901
01:00:09.119 --> 01:00:11.099
They don't exist.

902
01:00:11.159 --> 01:00:15.000
He just has epics built into his program, you know?

903
01:00:18.119 --> 01:00:20.940
But what, you know, you never know, you know.

904
01:00:21.000 --> 01:00:23.880
Maybe somebody just turned off Ransom's ethical subroutines.

905
01:00:23.940 --> 01:00:25.920
I believe his name might have been Joe Manosky.

906
01:00:27.659 --> 01:00:29.219
There we go.

907
01:00:29.280 --> 01:00:33.119
Oh, I liked all of this, so now...

908
01:00:33.179 --> 01:00:33.840
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

909
01:00:33.900 --> 01:00:35.039
This is fun action, isn't it?

910
01:00:35.099 --> 01:00:39.300
I think it's really good And that's what they're going for.

911
01:00:39.360 --> 01:00:46.800
Like, I think that the things that we like about this, um, these 2 parter, and there's plenty of them despite all the moaning that we're doing.

912
01:00:47.340 --> 01:00:52.860
The things that we like are the things that they want us to like, they're the things that they're kind of foreground.

913
01:00:52.980 --> 01:00:54.780
That's sort of linear plotting I was winging about.

914
01:00:54.840 --> 01:00:56.099
That sort of linear plotting.

915
01:00:56.159 --> 01:00:57.840
We love that in Star Trek, don't we?

916
01:00:57.900 --> 01:01:02.579
We like a little mystery unfolding before us, even though we know kind of where it's going.

917
01:01:02.760 --> 01:01:05.280
You know, they've got to learn though, right?

918
01:01:05.340 --> 01:01:07.019
Because do you remember the Vardoir?

919
01:01:08.880 --> 01:01:16.079
And they came along and they're like, we're innocent victims, you know, and they were like, oh, well, don't worry. come on the ship. you be all right.

920
01:01:16.139 --> 01:01:18.780
And then it turns out they're evil and we're doing this.

921
01:01:18.840 --> 01:01:22.380
Do you remember the ones we watched?

922
01:01:22.440 --> 01:01:24.719
Are the Vadweir in season six?

923
01:01:24.719 --> 01:01:25.679
Oh, they are?

924
01:01:25.739 --> 01:01:26.099
right.

925
01:01:26.159 --> 01:01:26.340
Sorry.

926
01:01:26.400 --> 01:01:26.820
Yeah.

927
01:01:26.880 --> 01:01:28.139
So they should haven't happened yet.

928
01:01:28.199 --> 01:01:29.219
They should have remembered this then.

929
01:01:30.960 --> 01:01:39.119
When the good crew equinox came along and said, you know, we're all victims and, well, do you remember in alliances when you had, who was it?

930
01:01:39.179 --> 01:01:40.619
The Cazon's enemy?

931
01:01:41.699 --> 01:01:43.500
Oh, the train.

932
01:01:43.559 --> 01:01:44.219
The train.

933
01:01:44.280 --> 01:01:46.860
I don't remember nothing, do they, of this show?

934
01:01:50.159 --> 01:01:55.739
Yeah, and like having the 2 ships fight one another, all of that sort of super interesting.

935
01:01:55.800 --> 01:01:57.659
Yeah, this is very boring, isn't it?

936
01:01:57.780 --> 01:02:00.659
He's using one of my tri-quadratic algorithms.

937
01:02:01.380 --> 01:02:03.780
Is that euphemism?

938
01:02:03.840 --> 01:02:05.099
I don't know.

939
01:02:05.159 --> 01:02:06.480
It's impossible to say.

940
01:02:06.840 --> 01:02:09.780
This is not very urgent though, is it?

941
01:02:09.840 --> 01:02:10.440
No.

942
01:02:11.639 --> 01:02:13.559
She was a failing.

943
01:02:13.619 --> 01:02:14.579
You've got less than a minute.

944
01:02:14.639 --> 01:02:15.300
Open a channel.

945
01:02:15.360 --> 01:02:21.960
So we got out the bit where Janeway spits at him, you know, like, get back here and ransom, or I'll hunt you across the entire galaxy.

946
01:02:21.960 --> 01:02:23.280
And she does.

947
01:02:23.340 --> 01:02:24.119
Yeah, yeah.

948
01:02:24.179 --> 01:02:31.320
And I think, you know, like, I think she's right too, because what we're going to get, Oh, Jesus Christ, he just called her BLT.

949
01:02:31.440 --> 01:02:34.199
Oh, there was a few roles there. happy to see the rocks.

950
01:02:34.260 --> 01:02:34.619
Yeah, yeah.

951
01:02:34.619 --> 01:02:47.099
The end of this episode is like the final scene of this episode is just a redoing the 1st scene of the episode, but it's happening to Voyager.

952
01:02:47.159 --> 01:02:49.860
And I think that's that's the best thing about it.

953
01:02:49.920 --> 01:02:58.980
And it's part of the reason why that 1st scene is actually a bit nothing because it's people that we don't know about and we don't even know where they are.

954
01:02:59.039 --> 01:03:02.880
And like we don't even know that they're in the Delta Quadrant, do we?

955
01:03:02.940 --> 01:03:03.900
How can we tell?

956
01:03:03.960 --> 01:03:10.440
The problem with it is. is one, I think the execution is not great because the slime of monsters just look shit.

957
01:03:10.559 --> 01:03:20.760
But the other problem is, is I knew that the next episode was going to start and there was just going to be some technobabble reason as to why those monsters weren't there anymore or they were just going to shoot them.

958
01:03:20.820 --> 01:03:24.119
So it wasn't like best of both worlds where we were like, how the hell are we going to get out of this?

959
01:03:24.179 --> 01:03:30.719
It was just, well, you know, let's get to the next episode because this danger isn't going to last very long.

960
01:03:30.780 --> 01:03:32.219
Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure.

961
01:03:32.280 --> 01:03:32.699
Sure.

962
01:03:32.760 --> 01:03:35.940
But the function of a cliffhanger is to get you excited for the next one, isn't it?

963
01:03:36.420 --> 01:03:51.599
Yeah, but I think, I mean, I think that what's interesting is, and it's the thing I think that, um, Ronald Moore picks up on is now we're putting Janeway in exactly the position that Ransom was in.

964
01:03:52.199 --> 01:03:53.639
Right?

965
01:03:53.699 --> 01:03:57.059
So, like, literally, we see there it is.

966
01:03:57.119 --> 01:04:04.440
In fact, we see a reenactment of the 1st scene, but happening on Voyager in the 2nd scene.

967
01:04:04.500 --> 01:04:08.400
And so now they're in the same situation, right?

968
01:04:08.460 --> 01:04:16.980
And so what Moore wants to do is he wants to explore Janeway losing her shit and losing her way morally.

969
01:04:17.039 --> 01:04:29.880
And he wants ransom to kind of, uh, you know, like improve to kind of see the error of his ways, uh, you know, because he's interacting with the doctor in seven.

970
01:04:30.179 --> 01:04:36.119
But no one else likes that idea, apparently. and it's certainly not what we get.

971
01:04:36.179 --> 01:04:39.599
And we don't get an examination of any of this.

972
01:04:40.079 --> 01:04:42.480
And that's the centre of it.

973
01:04:42.539 --> 01:04:49.980
I mean, if the big villain, the big series ending villain is us.

974
01:04:50.039 --> 01:04:53.099
You know, that's what you should be doing.

975
01:04:53.219 --> 01:04:56.820
You shouldn't just be doing the same shit as if this was the mail-on or whatever.

976
01:04:56.880 --> 01:04:58.139
Do you know what I mean?

977
01:04:58.199 --> 01:05:05.639
Like, if it's us, then, then it masses in a, in a way, and it has to be a thing that we ourselves could have done.

978
01:05:05.699 --> 01:05:10.500
And so making the crime so bad.

979
01:05:10.559 --> 01:05:13.800
So obviously wrong is a mistake.

980
01:05:13.800 --> 01:05:17.340
Um, because it should have been greyer.

981
01:05:17.400 --> 01:05:21.059
And, and that's what the title offers.

982
01:05:21.119 --> 01:05:23.219
Like, that's what the title suggests, isn't it?

983
01:05:23.280 --> 01:05:24.119
equinox.

984
01:05:24.179 --> 01:05:28.860
It's the day of the year where day and night are equal length, right?

985
01:05:28.920 --> 01:05:30.659
It's half good, half bad.

986
01:05:30.719 --> 01:05:32.280
And we don't get that.

987
01:05:32.340 --> 01:05:38.760
No one can do anything sort of interesting or nuanced or anything, but they do decent action sequences.

988
01:05:38.820 --> 01:05:41.159
Yeah, and 7 of 9 on a beach.

989
01:05:41.219 --> 01:05:47.639
Do you know, do you remember Homefront and Paradise Lost from series 4 of DS9?

990
01:05:47.699 --> 01:05:51.480
And initially we're supposed to think the Dominion are evading Earth?

991
01:05:51.539 --> 01:05:52.260
they go there.

992
01:05:52.320 --> 01:06:04.980
And then the big twist and that is, no, it was us all along in that the admiral is so paranoid about the Dominion, that he's staging things, so they can raise a military force and go out after him.

993
01:06:05.039 --> 01:06:18.719
So it is doing the same sort of thing, but it has protracted dialogue scenes between Cisco and the admiral, where we understand why he is so paranoid, why he's doing what he's doing.

994
01:06:18.780 --> 01:06:21.119
It doesn't condemn him either like this does.

995
01:06:21.960 --> 01:06:25.619
It's just playing in a different park, isn't it?

996
01:06:26.519 --> 01:06:32.400
Well, look, we should probably watch episode two, you know, even though I think we're going to complain a lot.

997
01:06:32.579 --> 01:06:41.340
Yeah, I think episode 2 is worse and we complained a lot about episode one, but I think a lot of our complaints were about episode two, actually.

998
01:06:41.400 --> 01:06:44.639
Like, this is a procedural thing.

999
01:06:44.699 --> 01:06:46.139
I like hang time.

1000
01:06:46.199 --> 01:06:52.079
You know, we spend a lot of time just getting to know these new people who've come on board, which I think is kind of interesting.

1001
01:06:52.139 --> 01:06:54.599
There's an away mission, there's a bit of a mystery.

1002
01:06:54.659 --> 01:07:00.719
I actually kind of liked the discovery that something had gone wrong, even though it wasn't all that well done.

1003
01:07:00.780 --> 01:07:05.460
But I don't think this episode, like, is a satisfying conclusion.

1004
01:07:05.519 --> 01:07:07.559
And that's often the case, isn't it?

1005
01:07:07.619 --> 01:07:08.699
Two parters?

1006
01:07:08.760 --> 01:07:18.780
So I have been in touch with Ron Moore to ask for some information about the writing of Equinox, and he's got a one or 2 things to say.

1007
01:07:18.840 --> 01:07:35.099
What I would suggest people do is go out, write Ron Moore, series 6 Voyager departure into Google, like I did, and there is a very long, very detailed interview where he talks about the issues behind the scenes of Voyager at the time.

1008
01:07:35.159 --> 01:07:39.659
But I want to focus just on what he says about, is it equinox or equinox?

1009
01:07:39.719 --> 01:07:43.320
Both, either one, whichever way you want to say it.

1010
01:07:43.380 --> 01:07:44.159
Okay.

1011
01:07:46.139 --> 01:07:51.119
We sat down on approach equinox 2 and tried to find what the show was about.

1012
01:07:51.179 --> 01:07:56.579
What was the point of meeting this ship and this crew and this captain and what did it mean?

1013
01:07:56.699 --> 01:08:00.719
We finally landed on the idea that the 2 captains were going in opposite directions.

1014
01:08:00.780 --> 01:08:09.960
Janeway was going to really feel the same kind of pressures and stretches that ransom fell and watch how it could turn a good by the book captain into what he had become.

1015
01:08:10.019 --> 01:08:15.119
At the same time, his interaction with the doctor in the 7 of 9 would rekindle his humanity.

1016
01:08:15.179 --> 01:08:19.680
It was this nice double track approach, but it just got lost in the translation.

1017
01:08:19.739 --> 01:08:21.359
It has no coherence.

1018
01:08:21.420 --> 01:08:23.279
You're not really sure what's going on.

1019
01:08:23.340 --> 01:08:25.619
You've got some potentially good scenes.

1020
01:08:25.680 --> 01:08:28.680
The scenes between Janeway and Chakotay, had some real fire to them.

1021
01:08:28.800 --> 01:08:31.199
And you kind of felt like she's going off the deep end a bit.

1022
01:08:31.260 --> 01:08:40.380
Then she released them with duty and there's this crisis of command between the 2 of them, but at the end of the episode, it's just shrug and smile and move off to the next episode.

1023
01:08:40.439 --> 01:08:42.300
I just hit the ceiling.

1024
01:08:42.359 --> 01:08:44.520
I remember writing in the margins.

1025
01:08:44.579 --> 01:08:46.800
This is a total betrayal of the audience.

1026
01:08:46.859 --> 01:08:47.939
This is wrong.

1027
01:08:48.060 --> 01:08:49.680
You can't end the show like this.

1028
01:08:49.739 --> 01:08:51.779
If you're going to do all this other stuff.

1029
01:08:51.840 --> 01:08:54.180
You can't end the show like this because it's not fair.

1030
01:08:54.300 --> 01:08:57.180
It's not true, and it just wouldn't happen.

1031
01:08:57.239 --> 01:08:59.460
But that's what the show is.

1032
01:08:59.579 --> 01:09:01.859
It became about action sequence is.

1033
01:09:01.920 --> 01:09:10.199
Brannan was very proud that the show was more action oriented than the others, that is faster, stylistically a little more daring than the other Star Trek shows.

1034
01:09:10.260 --> 01:09:11.220
That's great.

1035
01:09:11.340 --> 01:09:14.460
I give him a lot of credit for changing the look and feel of the show.

1036
01:09:14.520 --> 01:09:17.819
But it has to be about something at some level.

1037
01:09:17.880 --> 01:09:21.720
The things that Janeway does in Equinox don't work because it's not about anything.

1038
01:09:21.779 --> 01:09:24.119
She's not really grappling with her inner demons.

1039
01:09:24.180 --> 01:09:28.800
She's not truly under the gun and suffering to the point where you can understand the decisions she's made.

1040
01:09:28.859 --> 01:09:31.560
She just gets kind of cranky and bitchy.

1041
01:09:31.619 --> 01:09:32.880
She's having a bad day.

1042
01:09:32.939 --> 01:09:42.239
These things keep popping around on the bridge and we keep cutting to shots of people grabbing phaser rifles and shooting and hitting the red alert sign over and over again.

1043
01:09:42.300 --> 01:09:44.340
It doesn't signify anything.

1044
01:09:44.460 --> 01:09:46.800
It's kind of emblematic of the show.

1045
01:09:46.859 --> 01:09:48.000
There's a lot of potential.

1046
01:09:48.060 --> 01:09:52.260
There's a lot of surface sizzle going on in a lot of the episodes, but to what end?

1047
01:09:52.319 --> 01:09:53.699
What are we trying to do?

1048
01:09:53.760 --> 01:09:57.119
What are we trying to touch in the audience?

1049
01:09:57.239 --> 01:09:58.140
What are we trying to say?

1050
01:09:58.199 --> 01:10:00.420
What things are we trying to explore?

1051
01:10:00.479 --> 01:10:02.520
What are we doing in this episode?

1052
01:10:03.000 --> 01:10:05.340
It's pretty damning, isn't it?

1053
01:10:05.399 --> 01:10:06.539
Yeah.

1054
01:10:06.600 --> 01:10:07.199
Yeah.

1055
01:10:07.260 --> 01:10:20.340
I think he's a bit unfair in some senses, but only because I've read stuff into the episode and I think it's not there.

1056
01:10:20.399 --> 01:10:23.100
And I think that is the problem.

1057
01:10:23.159 --> 01:10:34.859
Like, I think you can make a good case why Janeway has sensible reasons for doing what she's done and for going to the lengths that she's gone.

1058
01:10:34.920 --> 01:10:43.260
And I think it does make a difference that these aren't the mail-on, uh, or the Vardoir or the Herogen or some monsters.

1059
01:10:43.319 --> 01:10:43.859
It makes a difference.

1060
01:10:43.920 --> 01:10:45.479
But they don't, do they?

1061
01:10:45.539 --> 01:10:47.100
In the episode, it sounds. don't.

1062
01:10:47.159 --> 01:10:49.140
She never gets to make her case.

1063
01:10:49.199 --> 01:10:51.600
Chakotay never gets to make his case.

1064
01:10:51.659 --> 01:10:58.619
She's just behaving in an ornery way. and he's being pathetic as usual.

1065
01:10:58.680 --> 01:11:02.460
And so none of the moral stuff gets examined.

1066
01:11:02.520 --> 01:11:04.979
It's like the surface sheen of drama, isn't it?

1067
01:11:05.039 --> 01:11:07.380
We have no substance underneath whatsoever.

1068
01:11:07.439 --> 01:11:10.739
So it looks like a dramatic scene because you've got two.

1069
01:11:10.800 --> 01:11:12.420
Well, I've got to say 2 powerhouse actors.

1070
01:11:12.479 --> 01:11:13.680
Robert Belgian is in there as well.

1071
01:11:13.739 --> 01:11:16.500
Two actors going at it, hammer and tongs.

1072
01:11:16.560 --> 01:11:19.439
But it's just like, it's like you said, isn't it?

1073
01:11:19.500 --> 01:11:22.439
like a house about bricks, you know, built on straw. just nothing there.

1074
01:11:22.560 --> 01:11:24.420
Yeah, yeah.

1075
01:11:24.479 --> 01:11:26.819
Yeah, it's a it's a shame.

1076
01:11:26.880 --> 01:11:28.199
Well, I'm excited.

1077
01:11:28.680 --> 01:11:33.659
Well, like we did say before, that I didn't hate watching this.

1078
01:11:33.720 --> 01:11:42.239
I didn't feel like I'd wasted an hour and a half and it's Star Trek and I like Star Trek, but I guess it's a bit disappointing.

1079
01:11:42.300 --> 01:11:43.500
And it's funny.

1080
01:11:43.560 --> 01:11:49.619
Um, this week, although by the time this goes out, it will be last week's episode.

1081
01:11:49.680 --> 01:11:58.079
But last week's episode of Lower Decks, did its big Voyager episode the way it did its big Deep Space 9 episode last year.

1082
01:11:58.140 --> 01:12:06.539
And the thing that they remember most about Voyager is the crazy ass, high concept, nonsense that they kept doing.

1083
01:12:06.600 --> 01:12:12.180
And that is a thing that's worth remembering Voyager 4.

1084
01:12:12.479 --> 01:12:16.260
You know, that's one of the things that we kind of like about it.

1085
01:12:16.319 --> 01:12:31.560
But what we don't remember it fondly for is how well drawn the characters are and how urgent the moral delivers were or how sparkling the repartee was on the bridge.

1086
01:12:31.619 --> 01:12:35.279
I think sort of more than any other example that I can think of.

1087
01:12:35.340 --> 01:12:42.600
Equinox is emblematic of Voyager itself in that it just has a reek of unfulfilled potential.

1088
01:12:42.659 --> 01:12:47.520
And that's why, so like, you're right, from scene to scene, it is perfectly watchable.

1089
01:12:47.579 --> 01:12:48.479
It's competently made.

1090
01:12:48.600 --> 01:12:57.060
It's well acted, you know, like I don't have any objections about how it's being executed beyond our usual lack of shiny services and cameras that don't move.

1091
01:12:57.119 --> 01:13:01.020
But it just always feels like it could be more.

1092
01:13:01.020 --> 01:13:04.140
This story does, the series does.

1093
01:13:04.199 --> 01:13:11.220
And yeah, I don't really like watching a TV show where I'm always feeling like I'm not getting what I should be getting.

1094
01:13:11.279 --> 01:13:13.079
Yeah, that's fair enough.

1095
01:13:13.140 --> 01:13:14.760
Well, I count us in then.

1096
01:13:16.439 --> 01:13:19.020
Are we Star Trek fans really?

1097
01:13:20.159 --> 01:13:22.260
No, we are, we are.

1098
01:13:22.319 --> 01:13:23.819
We whinge because we care.

1099
01:13:23.880 --> 01:13:27.060
There'll be lovely shots of shiny ships shooting at each other in this.

1100
01:13:27.119 --> 01:13:27.899
You know, we'll be happy.

1101
01:13:27.960 --> 01:13:29.220
Yeah, yeah, yeah. awesome.

1102
01:13:29.340 --> 01:13:31.079
Okay, here goes.

1103
01:13:31.140 --> 01:13:36.960
Five, four, three, two, one, and we're off.

1104
01:13:37.020 --> 01:13:41.640
Please, God, choose topic we love next time is you've got a button next time.

1105
01:13:44.760 --> 01:13:45.539
Here we go.

1106
01:13:45.659 --> 01:13:49.079
Major Al Barrett leads us into a reprise of episode one.

1107
01:13:49.140 --> 01:13:52.199
Yeah, she's she's the narrator.

1108
01:13:54.060 --> 01:13:57.239
See, it looks sort of super dramatic, doesn't it?

1109
01:13:57.300 --> 01:13:59.819
Oh, we can't communicate with them.

1110
01:13:59.880 --> 01:14:01.920
That is kind of what it is, though, isn't it?

1111
01:14:01.979 --> 01:14:03.720
We just sort of like trailer fuel, isn't it?

1112
01:14:03.779 --> 01:14:07.739
All these sort of scenes that you could just pluck out and say, right, this is going to be great.

1113
01:14:08.039 --> 01:14:17.340
But, you know, like, I think people who complain, you know, that action or spectacle are meretricious.

1114
01:14:17.399 --> 01:14:18.479
I think that's ridiculous.

1115
01:14:18.539 --> 01:14:19.140
It's TV.

1116
01:14:19.199 --> 01:14:20.159
It's got to be spectacle.

1117
01:14:20.220 --> 01:14:25.140
That's one thing. and it's not the only thing because you've done many things for me in my life.

1118
01:14:25.199 --> 01:14:31.739
If there's one thing you have taught me about examining television, is the vision part of television.

1119
01:14:31.800 --> 01:14:39.720
Yeah, and I've truly come to, to kick away from that, how well it should just be, you know, a painted cloth backdrop.

1120
01:14:39.720 --> 01:14:43.920
A couple of actors declaiming in front of it.

1121
01:14:44.159 --> 01:14:49.920
Now I can sort of relax when I massively pretty set pieces are going on around me.

1122
01:14:49.979 --> 01:14:52.199
Yeah, thank you for that. great.

1123
01:14:52.260 --> 01:14:54.600
Yeah, and Brague is right.

1124
01:14:54.659 --> 01:15:02.220
You know, like the action thing with this, trouble with the action sequences on Voyager is that they all look roughly the same, which is a problem.

1125
01:15:02.279 --> 01:15:02.699
Yeah.

1126
01:15:02.760 --> 01:15:04.020
Yeah.

1127
01:15:04.140 --> 01:15:13.020
It was when we got that sort of massive fleet of ships in sacrifice of angels, you know, that 1st time with going at each other.

1128
01:15:13.079 --> 01:15:15.239
We just never seen anything like it, had we?

1129
01:15:15.300 --> 01:15:16.079
We were like, whoa.

1130
01:15:16.140 --> 01:15:17.399
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1131
01:15:17.399 --> 01:15:20.100
Nowadays, you watch it and go, well, it's a bit pedestrian. actually.

1132
01:15:20.159 --> 01:15:21.840
Those ships are flying through very slowly.

1133
01:15:22.439 --> 01:15:24.779
Now, yeah, that's right.

1134
01:15:24.840 --> 01:15:35.100
Now, do you think I'm, I'm, I'm sort of bad cliche guy, but look, Chakotay's been hit by one of the things and he's got a scar on his face.

1135
01:15:35.159 --> 01:15:43.500
And then naturally, because it's Voyager, we have time to go and fix it in the next scene so we don't have to keep putting the latex on him from episode to episode.

1136
01:15:43.560 --> 01:15:46.140
Why don't we give Jane a face?

1137
01:15:46.199 --> 01:15:47.880
with his usual skill.

1138
01:15:47.939 --> 01:15:48.420
Yeah.

1139
01:15:48.479 --> 01:15:51.180
That's what's happening right now in the transition between the scenes.

1140
01:15:51.239 --> 01:15:52.140
No, no.

1141
01:15:52.199 --> 01:15:54.600
But why don't we give why don't we give Janeway that scar?

1142
01:15:54.659 --> 01:15:56.100
She had one.

1143
01:15:56.100 --> 01:15:56.579
She had one.

1144
01:15:56.640 --> 01:15:58.500
Just a little off, but it's gone.

1145
01:15:58.619 --> 01:16:00.060
No, she gets attacked.

1146
01:16:00.119 --> 01:16:01.979
So it's gone.

1147
01:16:02.039 --> 01:16:03.600
We don't give her the scar.

1148
01:16:03.659 --> 01:16:06.779
You know, like, and that's cheesy.

1149
01:16:06.840 --> 01:16:07.619
Do you know what I mean?

1150
01:16:07.680 --> 01:16:09.659
It's like, I have his leg or whatever.

1151
01:16:09.720 --> 01:16:14.220
It's, you know, I...

1152
01:16:14.220 --> 01:16:18.600
I think that something personal happens here.

1153
01:16:18.659 --> 01:16:26.279
The reason why I think that it's okay for Janeway to torture Rick Worthy is that.

1154
01:16:27.000 --> 01:16:30.000
She made a choice.

1155
01:16:31.199 --> 01:16:48.060
And that choice cost was costly, you know, that she made a costly choice for the sake of people that she'd never met and had no particular interest in.

1156
01:16:48.060 --> 01:16:50.760
And they're making the opposite choice.

1157
01:16:50.819 --> 01:16:55.859
They're actually actually choosing to ride home. that they don't know.

1158
01:16:55.920 --> 01:16:57.600
They're not, this, that's right.

1159
01:16:57.659 --> 01:16:58.380
That's it.

1160
01:16:58.439 --> 01:17:05.939
So she makes and and you know, we get that in in the final episode in whatever it's called, endgame.

1161
01:17:06.000 --> 01:17:07.979
I think is explained in that, though.

1162
01:17:08.039 --> 01:17:10.979
They actually do refer back to Caretaker, don't they?

1163
01:17:11.039 --> 01:17:12.720
Yeah, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1164
01:17:12.779 --> 01:17:14.760
They don't hear, though, do they?

1165
01:17:14.880 --> 01:17:16.439
No, no.

1166
01:17:16.500 --> 01:17:18.359
But as an audience went back to it.

1167
01:17:18.420 --> 01:17:21.300
You shouldn't be expected to create the content.

1168
01:17:21.300 --> 01:17:22.140
Exactly.

1169
01:17:22.140 --> 01:17:24.000
I hate ways behaving the way she is.

1170
01:17:24.060 --> 01:17:34.680
Well, in a well-made drama, that would be part of the fun would be kind of going, oh, yes, of course she's reacting like that because of this, but they're not doing that either.

1171
01:17:34.739 --> 01:17:37.619
I'm just having to kind of head canon her weird behaviour, I think.

1172
01:17:37.680 --> 01:17:38.399
Yes, don't you?

1173
01:17:38.460 --> 01:17:39.659
Even in a well-made drama.

1174
01:17:39.779 --> 01:17:41.340
They would give you some kind of dialogue.

1175
01:17:41.460 --> 01:17:42.840
Well, that makes the link.

1176
01:17:43.619 --> 01:17:49.560
And also, too, that so they're left in the same situation.

1177
01:17:49.619 --> 01:17:55.380
So he has not only determined to kill 63 things in order to get home.

1178
01:17:55.439 --> 01:18:00.779
He's also decided to leave Voyager in the situation that he found himself in.

1179
01:18:00.899 --> 01:18:09.779
So sorry. over the top shot of Jayway marching through the ship with a massive fucking gun.

1180
01:18:09.840 --> 01:18:10.140
Yep.

1181
01:18:13.199 --> 01:18:16.079
Their subtlety, Nathan has left the building.

1182
01:18:16.199 --> 01:18:20.939
And that, why is like Neelix is just walking past the dead body there?

1183
01:18:21.000 --> 01:18:23.340
They've got it on the floor, that's odd.

1184
01:18:23.399 --> 01:18:25.020
Or is that cool?

1185
01:18:25.020 --> 01:18:27.420
Because they're shooting them as they emerged. you know what I mean?

1186
01:18:27.479 --> 01:18:28.739
Like that, I kind of like these.

1187
01:18:28.800 --> 01:18:29.880
Are they allowed to do that?

1188
01:18:30.119 --> 01:18:32.699
Yeah, well, they're attacking them.

1189
01:18:32.760 --> 01:18:36.840
I mean, they are attacking them, mind you, because they've been being attacked.

1190
01:18:36.899 --> 01:18:38.340
Do you know what I mean?

1191
01:18:38.399 --> 01:18:42.600
But, like, shooting them in self-defence doesn't seem quite the same as...

1192
01:18:42.600 --> 01:18:44.159
People aware you're in its home, you know?

1193
01:18:44.520 --> 01:18:45.899
Yeah.

1194
01:18:45.960 --> 01:18:47.460
Oh, look at this.

1195
01:18:47.460 --> 01:18:49.380
We're out of bed, so there's people lying on the floor.

1196
01:18:49.500 --> 01:18:52.140
I know because they've got this tiny fucking set.

1197
01:18:53.520 --> 01:19:00.840
No, so where he goes, presses the button, but he goes, please take, state the nature of the, Oh yeah, don't bother.

1198
01:19:02.399 --> 01:19:04.859
There's people all over the floor.

1199
01:19:08.340 --> 01:19:10.439
Oh, bless.

1200
01:19:10.439 --> 01:19:12.600
So do we, does Chakotay keep the scar?

1201
01:19:12.659 --> 01:19:13.859
I can't remember.

1202
01:19:13.920 --> 01:19:16.739
No, no, no. they get rid of it.

1203
01:19:16.800 --> 01:19:17.640
Yeah.

1204
01:19:17.699 --> 01:19:20.699
Because, you know, Robert Belcher is so pretty.

1205
01:19:20.760 --> 01:19:21.899
We wouldn't want him looking like that.

1206
01:19:21.960 --> 01:19:24.119
Well, I suppose.

1207
01:19:24.300 --> 01:19:27.600
I think he did have a certain something in those early couple of years.

1208
01:19:27.659 --> 01:19:30.840
And then he had a bit of gray in his head, didn't he, for a little while?

1209
01:19:30.899 --> 01:19:33.359
A little bit of gray and it, like, shorter hair.

1210
01:19:33.420 --> 01:19:36.060
Now he just sort of combs it back like any...

1211
01:19:36.060 --> 01:19:37.380
It's discovered just for men.

1212
01:19:37.439 --> 01:19:38.939
Sorry, it looks very unconvincing.

1213
01:19:39.000 --> 01:19:42.000
Oh, so here we are on this fabulous beach.

1214
01:19:42.300 --> 01:19:45.479
So here we go outside.

1215
01:19:45.539 --> 01:19:48.119
Well, we are, but we're not really, are we?

1216
01:19:48.300 --> 01:19:52.439
Well, we are because we are going to take Jerry out there.

1217
01:19:52.500 --> 01:19:58.260
I thought it might be just stock footage or something like that, but we actually take Jerry to that location and...

1218
01:19:58.319 --> 01:19:58.979
But you know what?

1219
01:19:59.039 --> 01:20:06.420
He's saying about how the doctor and 7 are supposed to teach him to be a good human being and all again and how none of that happens because it doesn't happen at all.

1220
01:20:06.479 --> 01:20:07.979
No, it doesn't happen.

1221
01:20:08.039 --> 01:20:13.859
It just comes across that he's perving on 7 and 9 in his sort of porn virtual reality thing.

1222
01:20:13.920 --> 01:20:14.699
It's very old.

1223
01:20:14.880 --> 01:20:18.659
No, he literally changes his mind for no reason.

1224
01:20:18.779 --> 01:20:20.340
Like, I can't see.

1225
01:20:20.340 --> 01:20:22.199
No, no, there is a reason.

1226
01:20:22.319 --> 01:20:23.100
There is a reason.

1227
01:20:23.159 --> 01:20:24.300
The episode has to.

1228
01:20:24.300 --> 01:20:25.680
Season seven.

1229
01:20:25.739 --> 01:20:26.220
Yeah.

1230
01:20:26.279 --> 01:20:42.539
No, he sees 7 in the virtual reality, which is a thing that's not supposed to have because it's only got landscapes and no people, and 7 has a conversation with him, but I don't know what that's meant to mean or represent in real life.

1231
01:20:42.960 --> 01:20:44.760
Do you know what I mean?

1232
01:20:44.819 --> 01:20:50.520
Is it like I'm feeling bad about killing her in order to get the codes?

1233
01:20:51.420 --> 01:20:53.819
You know how they should have ended this?

1234
01:20:53.880 --> 01:20:57.840
Do you remember that episode about Star Galactica when Gator and that?

1235
01:20:57.840 --> 01:21:03.899
take over Galactica, you know, they stage a coup and at the end they surround them and shoot them all in the head.

1236
01:21:04.020 --> 01:21:05.340
They should have ended in all this.

1237
01:21:05.399 --> 01:21:07.920
Janeway could have come in with that big gun and shot them all.

1238
01:21:07.979 --> 01:21:09.539
They execute them, don't they?

1239
01:21:09.600 --> 01:21:11.819
they execute them as a death penalty.

1240
01:21:11.880 --> 01:21:13.319
It's Gator and someone else.

1241
01:21:13.380 --> 01:21:14.220
I can't remember who else.

1242
01:21:14.279 --> 01:21:16.020
I didn't get wrong.

1243
01:21:16.079 --> 01:21:20.279
They would never do that in Star Trek, but you know, again, I can tell you what's the more interesting show.

1244
01:21:20.640 --> 01:21:27.420
Yeah, yeah, but not because they wouldn't shoot people in the head because there are plenty of interesting shows that don't have that happen.

1245
01:21:27.479 --> 01:21:31.680
Um, I just think, yeah.

1246
01:21:31.739 --> 01:21:38.640
And that's super interesting because there are people we've been with for years and we can understand why they mutiny and all of that.

1247
01:21:38.699 --> 01:21:51.659
And remember that what Battlestar Galactica does is it does these local storylines that last for sort of 3 or 4 episodes, the mutiny is a thing that happens over a period of time, just like Pegasus, is a thing that happens over a period of time.

1248
01:21:51.720 --> 01:21:53.279
Not available to this show.

1249
01:21:53.340 --> 01:22:01.979
One of the things that Moore talks about in his interview is how the Voyager premise is inherent for serialisation because they are going on a journey.

1250
01:22:02.100 --> 01:22:08.520
So the fact that they don't do what you just described there about Battle Star Galactica is baffling.

1251
01:22:08.579 --> 01:22:10.260
Why do that process at all?

1252
01:22:10.439 --> 01:22:11.819
Yeah.

1253
01:22:11.880 --> 01:22:18.659
Well, I suspect why they do that premise is so to get away from the DS9.

1254
01:22:18.840 --> 01:22:29.460
Yeah, I think it's so that Deep Space 9 and the films are not affected by any of the continuity that happens in vice versa.

1255
01:22:29.520 --> 01:22:31.439
It's a flawed reason then, isn't it?

1256
01:22:31.500 --> 01:22:35.100
Because it opens up possibilities that they're not willing to take.

1257
01:22:35.220 --> 01:22:36.659
No.

1258
01:22:36.720 --> 01:22:42.960
And like that's unfair because initially they do, they do have an ongoing plot.

1259
01:22:42.960 --> 01:22:49.140
And like plenty of people don't like it and whatever and they're happy when it's over and we're just doing sort of standalones again.

1260
01:22:49.199 --> 01:22:52.500
But like I guess, I don't know.

1261
01:22:52.560 --> 01:22:58.380
The sad truth there is, is when they did drop the case on and went into standalones.

1262
01:22:58.439 --> 01:23:03.899
It's sort of, we're approaching series 4 where Jerry Ryan came in and suddenly they're getting the productions, right?

1263
01:23:03.960 --> 01:23:12.359
So they're doing these big, juicy sort of standout episodes and things like this where people are going, oh, Voyagers just got really good because it's dropped all that Ks on nonsense.

1264
01:23:12.420 --> 01:23:16.439
But actually, it's just naturally a show getting better as it goes along as well.

1265
01:23:16.500 --> 01:23:17.159
It's a shame.

1266
01:23:17.579 --> 01:23:19.260
I think so too.

1267
01:23:19.319 --> 01:23:24.239
And I think I think it's telling as well that there are only 7 people on this ship.

1268
01:23:24.479 --> 01:23:27.539
Like, and that wasn't always true.

1269
01:23:28.560 --> 01:23:31.260
You know, there's no.

1270
01:23:31.319 --> 01:23:34.140
There's no sort of semi-regulars or anything.

1271
01:23:34.199 --> 01:23:39.119
Yeah, which is, again, a shame because they started doing that, didn't they?

1272
01:23:39.180 --> 01:23:43.260
And then Jerry Taylor was like, no, we're going to murder them all in one episode.

1273
01:23:43.380 --> 01:23:49.199
Yeah, except for the one that we bring back later and then... so terrible, isn't it?

1274
01:23:49.260 --> 01:23:50.760
Well, it's period.

1275
01:23:50.819 --> 01:23:52.140
They're doing the best they can.

1276
01:23:52.199 --> 01:23:53.520
I think it's an attempt.

1277
01:23:55.079 --> 01:23:57.180
They were sort of proud of it.

1278
01:23:57.239 --> 01:23:58.260
I thought that shot was okay.

1279
01:23:58.319 --> 01:23:59.340
You know what?

1280
01:23:59.399 --> 01:24:04.079
In the end, in my head there, I was doing more parallels between Voyager and Battlestar Galactica.

1281
01:24:04.140 --> 01:24:12.899
You could have a scene where Harry Kim has finally had enough of his interminable journey home, goes into his locker, pulls out a pistol and shoots himself in the head.

1282
01:24:13.560 --> 01:24:14.699
Yeah, yeah.

1283
01:24:14.760 --> 01:24:17.039
No, that wouldn't happen, would it?

1284
01:24:17.100 --> 01:24:18.479
Yeah, yeah.

1285
01:24:18.539 --> 01:24:19.260
Shame.

1286
01:24:20.819 --> 01:24:32.699
No, I mean, Battlestar Galactic is a completely different thing and I think it's a great show, but I think it's not a great show specifically because it's not Star Trek and it does things that Star Trek can't do.

1287
01:24:32.760 --> 01:24:36.659
I think it's a great show because it's well written.

1288
01:24:36.659 --> 01:24:40.439
And yeah, and all those things that TV probably should be doing all the time.

1289
01:24:40.500 --> 01:24:41.159
Yeah, yeah.

1290
01:24:41.220 --> 01:24:42.899
Did you hear what she said there?

1291
01:24:42.960 --> 01:24:47.579
We should be hunting down ransom, nuts, debating adverbs, Chakotay.

1292
01:24:48.119 --> 01:24:48.659
Yeah.

1293
01:24:48.720 --> 01:24:50.880
What was the adverbs thing?

1294
01:24:50.939 --> 01:25:00.180
Oh, because they're trying to communicate with the, I like the adverbs line, actually, because they're trying to work out a way of communicating with the, with the slimers.

1295
01:25:00.779 --> 01:25:06.420
She goes, we run into the Melon, the Hirogen, we've had our share of bad guys.

1296
01:25:06.479 --> 01:25:08.460
We never lost our principles, Chakotay.

1297
01:25:08.520 --> 01:25:10.920
But she's saying the wrong thing.

1298
01:25:10.979 --> 01:25:20.039
She's saying the wrong thing because she's the one who should be saying, no, the mail on, the Hirogen, the Borg.

1299
01:25:20.100 --> 01:25:22.619
They're bad guys, but this is different.

1300
01:25:22.680 --> 01:25:26.819
He's us and he's murdering his way through the quadrant.

1301
01:25:26.880 --> 01:25:31.859
You know, he's left us in with, you know, to clean up his shit.

1302
01:25:31.920 --> 01:25:38.460
He's killed 3 crew members at a point in the show when only like 20 something had died by that point.

1303
01:25:38.520 --> 01:25:39.779
Do you know what I mean?

1304
01:25:39.840 --> 01:25:47.699
Like, he's responsible for the deaths of these crew members, and he's a person, and we're part of the same organisation, and I'm going to put a stop to it.

1305
01:25:47.760 --> 01:25:49.500
You know, he's got to be punished.

1306
01:25:49.560 --> 01:25:50.699
He can't get away with it.

1307
01:25:52.380 --> 01:26:00.420
Instead, she's she's just saying, well, you know, we've met these people. and we never went there, you know?

1308
01:26:00.420 --> 01:26:01.859
Yeah, yeah.

1309
01:26:01.920 --> 01:26:03.420
So it's less focus on here.

1310
01:26:03.479 --> 01:26:05.039
It's all about them.

1311
01:26:05.100 --> 01:26:10.500
It's very strange Do you remember, I'm going to keep doing this.

1312
01:26:10.560 --> 01:26:16.560
Do you remember the Cisco Eddington, you know, the episode where he's trying to hunt him down, right?

1313
01:26:16.619 --> 01:26:21.479
I mean, they're never going to top that because it's so operatic in a way that only DS9 can be.

1314
01:26:21.539 --> 01:26:24.539
You know, he absolutely adores Les Miserables.

1315
01:26:24.600 --> 01:26:28.140
He gets to say at the end, you know, Javert, I'll give you what you want.

1316
01:26:28.199 --> 01:26:32.399
Me, you know, and all of this very over the top stuff that we love.

1317
01:26:32.460 --> 01:26:36.239
But it does examine the characters. in the episode.

1318
01:26:36.300 --> 01:26:41.100
And a lot of people say to Cisco, you're getting obsessed and you need to step away from this.

1319
01:26:42.000 --> 01:26:43.380
Yeah.

1320
01:26:44.279 --> 01:26:46.380
Oh, this is creepy.

1321
01:26:46.800 --> 01:26:57.000
Well, I just think it's boring, and it is because we've done it before, and him singing and stuff, and like we switched his ethical subroutines off.

1322
01:26:57.060 --> 01:26:58.319
It's so crap.

1323
01:26:58.380 --> 01:27:00.479
Like, what is that?

1324
01:27:00.539 --> 01:27:03.239
And then how do we feel about that at the end?

1325
01:27:03.300 --> 01:27:04.739
Do you know what I mean?

1326
01:27:04.800 --> 01:27:12.600
Like, do they need to reconcile because he tried to murder her or is it he's ethical subroutines were switched off?

1327
01:27:12.659 --> 01:27:14.640
It's kind of like, what is this even like?

1328
01:27:14.699 --> 01:27:15.840
How do I feel about this?

1329
01:27:15.899 --> 01:27:17.579
Why is he doing a bad thing?

1330
01:27:17.640 --> 01:27:18.359
as well.

1331
01:27:18.420 --> 01:27:19.619
Why is he removing our memories?

1332
01:27:19.739 --> 01:27:22.920
So I actually think it's really good.

1333
01:27:22.979 --> 01:27:34.079
So she has encoded the things in engineering, so he can't use his murder box to get home.

1334
01:27:34.140 --> 01:27:35.399
Oh okay.

1335
01:27:35.520 --> 01:27:36.899
Okay.

1336
01:27:36.899 --> 01:27:42.000
And and I actually thought it was pretty awesome when she said no.

1337
01:27:42.060 --> 01:27:44.399
And he said, well, I'll kill you.

1338
01:27:44.460 --> 01:27:45.960
He said, well, yep, go ahead.

1339
01:27:46.020 --> 01:27:48.239
Like I really, I thought she was great.

1340
01:27:48.300 --> 01:27:52.500
And this, where she says, you keep saying you had no choice.

1341
01:27:52.560 --> 01:27:56.159
You know, you murder things and say, oh, I have no choice.

1342
01:27:56.279 --> 01:28:01.439
You know, like, I think that's, that's approaching being a conversation about ethics, isn't it?

1343
01:28:01.560 --> 01:28:04.020
And about the way we justify what we've done.

1344
01:28:04.079 --> 01:28:06.239
And she's kind of saying I'm not going to help you.

1345
01:28:06.300 --> 01:28:07.800
I'm giving you the choice.

1346
01:28:07.859 --> 01:28:11.039
You can kill it. surface again, though, because he's not coming back with an argument.

1347
01:28:11.100 --> 01:28:13.619
It's not a debate between 2 people.

1348
01:28:13.619 --> 01:28:14.939
She's just condemning you.

1349
01:28:15.060 --> 01:28:18.600
Yeah, at least it's a conversation about ethics, you know.

1350
01:28:18.659 --> 01:28:24.420
But I do think all this sort of focus on 7 because God forbid we don't focus on her every week.

1351
01:28:24.420 --> 01:28:28.500
Because there's, you know, Pete, the 5 people watching might turn off.

1352
01:28:28.560 --> 01:28:32.520
It does take away from the Janeway ransom things.

1353
01:28:32.579 --> 01:28:33.960
So they don't get any time together.

1354
01:28:34.020 --> 01:28:35.699
He has all of his time with seven.

1355
01:28:35.819 --> 01:28:38.039
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1356
01:28:38.579 --> 01:28:52.680
What you could have had was a protracted dialogue scene with seven, with, sorry, with Janeway and Shakotay and Ransom at some point in this episode where everyone gets to state their case and everyone's given a reason why they're doing what they're doing.

1357
01:28:52.739 --> 01:28:54.300
Star Trek too.

1358
01:28:54.359 --> 01:28:58.079
The whole pursuit, they could be talking to one another.

1359
01:28:58.199 --> 01:29:08.520
While they, you know, there's no reason why they can't talk to one another now because they're on different ships and they can hand wave the fact that they can't detect one another who cares, but let's have them talk to each other.

1360
01:29:08.579 --> 01:29:09.899
Do you know what the problem is?

1361
01:29:09.960 --> 01:29:12.720
It's the opposite of what we normally say about 90s trek.

1362
01:29:12.779 --> 01:29:14.640
There's not enough talk and there's too much action.

1363
01:29:14.699 --> 01:29:16.199
You know?

1364
01:29:16.260 --> 01:29:18.000
Yeah, yeah.

1365
01:29:18.060 --> 01:29:20.699
Stop being dynamic and start talking.

1366
01:29:20.760 --> 01:29:25.920
Well, but I mean, they are talking, but whenever they're talking, they're talking about the wrong things.

1367
01:29:26.699 --> 01:29:36.060
They're talking about Max and B'Elana's relationship and shit about cat and mouse in the thingy nebula, being chased by the Klingons.

1368
01:29:36.119 --> 01:29:36.899
Oh, crock.

1369
01:29:36.960 --> 01:29:40.260
No, this isn't one of these backstory scenes. isn't it?

1370
01:29:44.399 --> 01:29:46.380
Oh, bless her.

1371
01:29:46.439 --> 01:29:48.899
And yet all of these exchanges.

1372
01:29:49.319 --> 01:29:57.720
You could put in a trailer and people will go, things are far enough on Voyager this week, you know, look at Janeway and Chakotay round with each other.

1373
01:29:58.500 --> 01:30:01.560
I really like that little ship.

1374
01:30:02.340 --> 01:30:04.020
Don't you think?

1375
01:30:04.079 --> 01:30:04.979
I think it looks really cool.

1376
01:30:05.579 --> 01:30:07.319
I don't know why.

1377
01:30:07.380 --> 01:30:09.659
I think you've got a bit of a thing about ship designs.

1378
01:30:09.720 --> 01:30:12.720
It's been a few times on Star Trek project where you'd liked...

1379
01:30:12.779 --> 01:30:15.600
It's a bit pointer and a bit more angular.

1380
01:30:15.659 --> 01:30:16.500
Do you know what I mean?

1381
01:30:16.560 --> 01:30:17.939
Like it's little...

1382
01:30:18.060 --> 01:30:18.600
I like it.

1383
01:30:18.659 --> 01:30:19.680
I think it looks cool.

1384
01:30:19.739 --> 01:30:20.760
There's a lot of detail.

1385
01:30:20.819 --> 01:30:23.460
I wonder if they said, look, we've made it to series six.

1386
01:30:23.520 --> 01:30:25.140
We're going to have a beach shoot, all right?

1387
01:30:25.199 --> 01:30:28.020
But we're only taking ransom and seven.

1388
01:30:28.079 --> 01:30:28.680
Sorry.

1389
01:30:28.920 --> 01:30:32.399
Oh, yeah, we do take. we do take him, don't we?

1390
01:30:32.460 --> 01:30:33.960
But he only appears in the last scene.

1391
01:30:34.020 --> 01:30:37.199
I actually kind of like that once he's decided to die.

1392
01:30:37.319 --> 01:30:41.699
He, Then we see him on the beach.

1393
01:30:41.760 --> 01:30:46.680
This can't be doing the relationship between K Mulgrew and Jerry Ryan any favours.

1394
01:30:46.739 --> 01:30:49.079
We're doing it as a favour for Jerry for saving the show.

1395
01:30:49.140 --> 01:30:50.939
She can go off.

1396
01:30:51.000 --> 01:30:51.779
So you can go to the beach.

1397
01:30:51.840 --> 01:30:54.359
No, wait, we are...

1398
01:30:54.479 --> 01:30:56.039
Rick Worthy's getting a go.

1399
01:30:56.100 --> 01:30:58.680
So Harry Kim's now pissed off that it's not him.

1400
01:30:58.859 --> 01:31:01.800
How comes all these guest characters get to go outside?

1401
01:31:01.859 --> 01:31:03.060
Oh, no, no.

1402
01:31:03.119 --> 01:31:05.100
Our guys are here too because they've got to capture them.

1403
01:31:06.180 --> 01:31:11.520
And this dialogue, again, what a fucking waste of time this dialogue is.

1404
01:31:11.579 --> 01:31:14.039
Oh, this place looks like somewhere in Southern California.

1405
01:31:14.100 --> 01:31:17.340
There used to be squirrels and you kind of think, fuck, what are you doing?

1406
01:31:17.399 --> 01:31:19.079
Are you pointing it out?

1407
01:31:19.140 --> 01:31:20.760
Yeah.

1408
01:31:21.539 --> 01:31:23.880
But it's so boring.

1409
01:31:23.939 --> 01:31:28.140
Now he's away from the sort of terrible light in a Voyager and he's out in the sunshine.

1410
01:31:28.199 --> 01:31:29.880
Rick Worthy is very pretty, isn't he?

1411
01:31:29.939 --> 01:31:31.739
Oh, yeah, no, he's a pretty man.

1412
01:31:31.800 --> 01:31:33.300
Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.

1413
01:31:33.420 --> 01:31:35.520
Okay, so they're captured now.

1414
01:31:35.579 --> 01:31:37.199
Torture scene imminent, folks.

1415
01:31:37.260 --> 01:31:38.340
Content warning.

1416
01:31:38.640 --> 01:31:46.380
So, I think, I think that you're right that there's, you know, like we'll talk to the black guy is a bit of a problem.

1417
01:31:46.439 --> 01:31:51.840
And I would have much liked Janeway to have tortured Marlowe because fuck that woman.

1418
01:31:51.899 --> 01:31:53.699
Yeah, yeah, but do you know what I mean?

1419
01:31:53.760 --> 01:32:00.720
She's like the sort of, she's got a little bit of liberal guilt about murdering 63 people in order to get home.

1420
01:32:01.319 --> 01:32:07.260
But she could have properly sort of gone, you know, you preyed on our sympathies, martyr.

1421
01:32:07.319 --> 01:32:09.300
You deserve their sin.

1422
01:32:09.659 --> 01:32:13.020
It will, because that was the problem, wasn't it?

1423
01:32:13.140 --> 01:32:18.720
The thing about her feeling bad about it, but it was all a ploy.

1424
01:32:18.779 --> 01:32:20.399
You know, I don't know.

1425
01:32:20.460 --> 01:32:22.739
Are we supposed to ever think she was gonna go through with it?

1426
01:32:22.859 --> 01:32:24.600
If he didn't?

1427
01:32:24.720 --> 01:32:25.619
I didn't know.

1428
01:32:25.680 --> 01:32:29.819
Like, I didn't know, because I couldn't remember the individual beats here.

1429
01:32:29.880 --> 01:32:35.159
There were bits that I remembered, but I should have gone the whole thing once. had him sucked out into space.

1430
01:32:38.579 --> 01:32:42.899
They're not think Chakotay can say you're going too far, but just taking a bit of the air out of the room.

1431
01:32:42.960 --> 01:32:44.039
We do that every other week.

1432
01:32:44.100 --> 01:32:45.479
No, no, that's not what they were doing.

1433
01:32:45.539 --> 01:32:46.319
That's what they were doing.

1434
01:32:46.380 --> 01:32:48.479
Oh, no, the aliens coming in, isn't he?

1435
01:32:48.539 --> 01:32:48.779
Yeah.

1436
01:32:48.840 --> 01:32:49.800
Yeah, yeah.

1437
01:32:49.859 --> 01:33:07.020
And like, in a sense, as I said before, it would be consistent with sort of Starfleet protocols to just say, we're going to hand you over to these aliens because we don't have jurisdiction here and we're going to let them do what they want to do.

1438
01:33:07.020 --> 01:33:11.159
And like, having her rationalise it.

1439
01:33:11.220 --> 01:33:16.739
What if she was rationalising it in that way while seeming kind of crazy and out of control?

1440
01:33:16.800 --> 01:33:22.619
Like that would have been interesting. you know, something, something other than this, would have been interesting.

1441
01:33:22.680 --> 01:33:23.760
But you, um...

1442
01:33:23.760 --> 01:33:26.399
You like her performance in that scene.

1443
01:33:26.399 --> 01:33:27.779
And I'll say it again.

1444
01:33:27.840 --> 01:33:30.960
I just don't buy it and I don't think Kate Mulgrew buys it either.

1445
01:33:32.100 --> 01:33:38.100
Yeah, I mean, I love her being tough and muscular and scary and stuff.

1446
01:33:38.159 --> 01:33:38.880
I think she's pretty great.

1447
01:33:39.600 --> 01:33:44.819
But yes, like, I don't think that she knows why she's doing it.

1448
01:33:44.880 --> 01:33:52.500
She just always sounds so confident with her dialogue and in that sequence, she just sounds a little limb, like, oh, do you think?

1449
01:33:52.560 --> 01:33:53.279
Yeah.

1450
01:33:53.340 --> 01:33:55.260
Hell, hell, talk.

1451
01:33:57.720 --> 01:33:59.579
Well, we'll see.

1452
01:33:59.640 --> 01:34:02.579
Well, we won't hear it, but we'll certainly see our body.

1453
01:34:02.640 --> 01:34:02.880
Yeah.

1454
01:34:02.880 --> 01:34:03.239
Yeah.

1455
01:34:03.300 --> 01:34:11.819
I mean, I'll say as usual, watching these, um, you know, less good episodes of Star Trek are made immediately better by talking about them with you.

1456
01:34:11.880 --> 01:34:16.199
So, thank you.

1457
01:34:16.319 --> 01:34:19.619
Oh, that's my pleasure.

1458
01:34:20.279 --> 01:34:27.180
So it's really crap how easily fooled they are as well.

1459
01:34:27.239 --> 01:34:30.779
Like they just, why are they following them down into the atmosphere?

1460
01:34:30.840 --> 01:34:31.739
I don't quite get it.

1461
01:34:31.800 --> 01:34:32.699
It's exciting.

1462
01:34:32.760 --> 01:34:34.739
That's why it's a nice and exciting.

1463
01:34:34.800 --> 01:34:36.659
Janeways out of control.

1464
01:34:36.840 --> 01:34:39.539
You know, they can put in the trailer now.

1465
01:34:39.600 --> 01:34:42.479
We've got a beach, we've got an action sequence on location.

1466
01:34:42.539 --> 01:34:46.319
We're going into the atmosphere of a planet and just pissed on the floor.

1467
01:34:46.500 --> 01:34:48.479
What more do you need?

1468
01:34:51.539 --> 01:34:58.800
I mean, later in this season, you know, the only thing they need in the trailer for the episode is the rock is gonna fight 7 of nine.

1469
01:34:59.579 --> 01:35:01.979
Did you ever see a trailer for that one?

1470
01:35:02.039 --> 01:35:04.859
They did it like a proper WWE.

1471
01:35:06.720 --> 01:35:09.539
In one corner, we've got 7 of nine.

1472
01:35:09.600 --> 01:35:11.579
Anyhow, we've got the wrong.

1473
01:35:11.640 --> 01:35:16.560
I've seen them interacting on Twitter, which was pretty funny.

1474
01:35:16.680 --> 01:35:19.439
Well, they still think about it very fondly, don't they?

1475
01:35:19.500 --> 01:35:20.640
Yeah, yeah.

1476
01:35:20.699 --> 01:35:25.140
And he was showing her respect because she did beat him, you know, like it was...

1477
01:35:25.140 --> 01:35:26.640
I do think this is very nicely shot.

1478
01:35:26.699 --> 01:35:28.680
The camera sort of follows her around.

1479
01:35:28.739 --> 01:35:30.840
He's always in the foreground looking a bit.

1480
01:35:30.899 --> 01:35:32.939
It's a well directed scene.

1481
01:35:34.079 --> 01:35:36.420
But I like this too.

1482
01:35:36.479 --> 01:35:37.800
She does...

1483
01:35:37.800 --> 01:35:39.539
No, this is awesome.

1484
01:35:39.600 --> 01:35:41.880
She comes in a bit as if she's going to kiss him.

1485
01:35:43.079 --> 01:35:46.859
I'm gonna let your little friends pay you.

1486
01:35:46.859 --> 01:35:47.399
So good.

1487
01:35:47.460 --> 01:35:50.640
Some people would call it poetic justice.

1488
01:35:50.699 --> 01:35:53.460
Poetic justice, or just justice.

1489
01:35:53.520 --> 01:35:55.020
You know.

1490
01:35:56.819 --> 01:35:59.279
But Chikoto's so limp.

1491
01:35:59.340 --> 01:36:00.539
Look at him standing there.

1492
01:36:00.600 --> 01:36:02.100
I mean, he's kind of going along with it.

1493
01:36:02.159 --> 01:36:07.739
I kind of like the, there's no plan as far as I know, and like that scene does 2 things.

1494
01:36:07.800 --> 01:36:13.979
It kind of like I'm not quite sure what the hell she's doing, but it's also, I haven't decided to come in and rescue you either.

1495
01:36:14.039 --> 01:36:15.840
No, I think this is good.

1496
01:36:15.899 --> 01:36:17.760
I like how she underplays it.

1497
01:36:17.819 --> 01:36:20.640
That's absolutely what she should be doing.

1498
01:36:20.699 --> 01:36:23.100
And I kind of like, what are you going to do, hit me.

1499
01:36:23.159 --> 01:36:30.539
It's just like, no, no, I'm just gonna put the shields down and let the people that you've been torturing and killing come in and deal with you how they want.

1500
01:36:30.600 --> 01:36:39.720
You know, I think that, you know, If this was the right thing to do, it would be so much more interesting than she's out of control.

1501
01:36:39.779 --> 01:36:41.460
Oh, is Rick tearing up?

1502
01:36:41.460 --> 01:36:42.119
He is a bit.

1503
01:36:42.300 --> 01:36:42.840
I don't know why.

1504
01:36:42.899 --> 01:36:45.720
I just find when when Cisco goes psychotic like this.

1505
01:36:45.779 --> 01:36:50.220
I'll just believe it more, but that's just because he's generally psychotic most weeks.

1506
01:36:50.760 --> 01:36:55.199
Well, I think she, I think she's smaller than him.

1507
01:36:55.260 --> 01:36:59.880
Like in this conversation, he's bigger than her in every shot, right?

1508
01:37:00.000 --> 01:37:09.840
And then there's another scene later on where she's at the back of the room not talking to anyone and I just wish she had owned this. you know what I mean?

1509
01:37:09.899 --> 01:37:18.300
Whether like they kind of, you know, like he pulls a gun and then sort of wanders off and I just think he's a bit pathetic, you know.

1510
01:37:19.140 --> 01:37:28.079
This is not the same woman, you know, who came along dressed as queen of the spider people and owned the entire set.

1511
01:37:29.100 --> 01:37:34.380
Yeah, again, she's just standing there pissed off because he's spoiled her fun.

1512
01:37:34.859 --> 01:37:38.460
And she just sort of looks at him and walks away, doesn't she?

1513
01:37:38.579 --> 01:37:39.600
Yeah, excuse me.

1514
01:37:39.659 --> 01:37:42.180
You've spoiled my thumb.

1515
01:37:42.239 --> 01:37:46.020
Well, she doesn't push him out of the way or push him or anything like that.

1516
01:37:46.079 --> 01:37:50.520
She just kind of sideways edges herself in between. this scene as well.

1517
01:37:50.579 --> 01:37:51.600
Look at her.

1518
01:37:51.659 --> 01:37:53.100
Yeah, yeah, look at her.

1519
01:37:53.159 --> 01:37:54.420
She's standing there.

1520
01:37:54.479 --> 01:37:55.680
She's not standing upright.

1521
01:37:55.739 --> 01:37:56.939
She's leaning against the thing.

1522
01:37:57.239 --> 01:37:59.939
She's letting him do the talking.

1523
01:38:00.000 --> 01:38:02.159
She's smaller than everyone else in the frame.

1524
01:38:02.220 --> 01:38:03.359
She's out of focus.

1525
01:38:03.420 --> 01:38:06.119
You know, like, I don't understand what they're doing.

1526
01:38:06.180 --> 01:38:07.140
They're just signed up.

1527
01:38:07.199 --> 01:38:10.619
What she should do is, is what he did in rocks and struggles and just go, this isn't a debate.

1528
01:38:10.680 --> 01:38:12.180
You know, we're going to do what I want.

1529
01:38:12.239 --> 01:38:13.199
We're going to go and get him.

1530
01:38:13.260 --> 01:38:20.399
Yeah, but we don't have that conversation, you know, like we don't have the, yeah, and look, she backs down. doesn't she?

1531
01:38:20.460 --> 01:38:21.239
We're going to do it your way.

1532
01:38:22.500 --> 01:38:24.420
Oh, Janeway.

1533
01:38:24.539 --> 01:38:25.500
Janeway, you're weak.

1534
01:38:25.560 --> 01:38:26.340
I'm sorry.

1535
01:38:26.399 --> 01:38:28.199
Yeah, that's right.

1536
01:38:28.260 --> 01:38:30.300
I think that's a problem, isn't it?

1537
01:38:30.359 --> 01:38:32.159
Like, you almost killed that man.

1538
01:38:33.239 --> 01:38:36.060
And she wasn't intending to kill him.

1539
01:38:36.119 --> 01:38:38.159
She thought that it would work.

1540
01:38:38.220 --> 01:38:54.720
Like, she thought that when the thing came through, the thing, he would have cried out and then, you know, like, she had to let it sort of fly around him a bit, like, she sounds like she didn't intend for it to kill him.

1541
01:38:54.840 --> 01:38:55.859
This is so shit.

1542
01:38:55.920 --> 01:38:59.699
They've gone from her saying we're going to do it your way to 5 lines later.

1543
01:38:59.760 --> 01:39:00.840
You're relieved of juicy.

1544
01:39:00.899 --> 01:39:02.220
Yeah, yeah.

1545
01:39:02.279 --> 01:39:03.359
What is this scene doing?

1546
01:39:03.420 --> 01:39:05.520
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1547
01:39:06.180 --> 01:39:09.420
He just went, I'm not going to let you cross the line again.

1548
01:39:09.479 --> 01:39:10.800
Well, you've left me no choice.

1549
01:39:10.859 --> 01:39:12.180
I'm sorry, I'm going to throw you in the bridge.

1550
01:39:13.859 --> 01:39:16.500
This is a drama, you know?

1551
01:39:17.340 --> 01:39:21.119
Well, in 15 minutes it'll all be okay again.

1552
01:39:21.180 --> 01:39:24.119
Now there's nobody to stop her now going over the edge.

1553
01:39:24.239 --> 01:39:28.500
No, because she she threatens to put someone else in the brig in a minute.

1554
01:39:28.560 --> 01:39:33.359
I feel like Harry Kim should be looking at her and like, 0 my god, like, can I be relieved, Captain?

1555
01:39:33.659 --> 01:39:36.000
I'm bumping these up.

1556
01:39:36.060 --> 01:39:41.520
So their mouths, these sort of floppy rubber mouths.

1557
01:39:42.119 --> 01:39:45.659
I'm giving them an extra one on the bow mask.

1558
01:39:45.720 --> 01:39:47.279
Oh, that case, like a swear.

1559
01:39:47.340 --> 01:39:48.840
Yeah, yeah.

1560
01:39:48.899 --> 01:39:52.079
They're like, are they supposed to be like snails?

1561
01:39:53.039 --> 01:39:56.880
Possibly. bizarre orifice they've got for a mouth.

1562
01:39:56.939 --> 01:39:58.560
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1563
01:39:58.619 --> 01:40:01.739
It's only a line you say in a Star Trek commentary, isn't it?

1564
01:40:01.859 --> 01:40:03.779
No, it's super upsetting.

1565
01:40:03.840 --> 01:40:05.399
I like their little ship though.

1566
01:40:05.460 --> 01:40:07.319
I'm wondering like this machine.

1567
01:40:07.380 --> 01:40:11.760
I always thought it was the Melon she was talking about when she said they were testing us, okay?

1568
01:40:11.819 --> 01:40:15.720
Making us act with these strange creatures that I, it might have been them.

1569
01:40:15.779 --> 01:40:16.920
No, but I think it was those.

1570
01:40:16.920 --> 01:40:19.260
She's not even looking at him.

1571
01:40:19.319 --> 01:40:21.300
She's like, I'm not looking at that mask.

1572
01:40:22.859 --> 01:40:27.359
Remember the frog guy in counterpoint?

1573
01:40:27.420 --> 01:40:29.399
Oh, shit, yeah.

1574
01:40:29.460 --> 01:40:30.300
Jesus.

1575
01:40:30.359 --> 01:40:31.020
Do you remember the book?

1576
01:40:31.680 --> 01:40:34.619
Do you remember the blue guy?

1577
01:40:34.619 --> 01:40:38.520
In the pale moonlight, you know, the one who's doing the program.

1578
01:40:38.579 --> 01:40:39.239
Yeah, yeah.

1579
01:40:39.300 --> 01:40:43.380
Yeah, I think weird looking aliens can be really good, but that.

1580
01:40:43.439 --> 01:40:46.140
But you know, we always come back to the Beaumar.

1581
01:40:46.199 --> 01:40:48.600
Do you remember how much they weren't given a performance?

1582
01:40:48.659 --> 01:40:50.699
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1583
01:40:50.760 --> 01:40:58.979
Oh, no, they were just sort of intransigent aliens that we needed for no reason, you know. which is another voyager kind of trope, isn't it?

1584
01:40:59.039 --> 01:40:59.939
Another staple.

1585
01:41:00.060 --> 01:41:04.979
I do think we don't see enough decorative cohangers, though, on Star Trek, so I'll give him that.

1586
01:41:06.000 --> 01:41:07.439
I do.

1587
01:41:07.500 --> 01:41:13.260
I quite like the, you know, this light thing that he's holding and it's the spirits that come along to guide you on your way.

1588
01:41:13.319 --> 01:41:16.920
Yeah, I like the spirits of good fortune as well.

1589
01:41:16.979 --> 01:41:18.180
It's kind of weird.

1590
01:41:18.300 --> 01:41:22.500
Well, because then it makes it appalling that they've been captured and killed, doesn't it?

1591
01:41:22.619 --> 01:41:22.979
You know?

1592
01:41:23.039 --> 01:41:24.180
Spirits of good fortune.

1593
01:41:24.239 --> 01:41:26.100
Well, you didn't see your own good fortune, did you?

1594
01:41:27.479 --> 01:41:29.760
I yeah, that's right.

1595
01:41:29.819 --> 01:41:31.680
She's threatening to put Tuvok in the brig.

1596
01:41:31.739 --> 01:41:34.140
But again, is this wrong?

1597
01:41:34.199 --> 01:41:38.640
If she says, if you, you need to stop.

1598
01:41:38.699 --> 01:41:39.479
If everybody around you.

1599
01:41:40.680 --> 01:41:45.180
If everybody around you is saying to you, look, you're going too far, please can we talk about this?

1600
01:41:45.300 --> 01:41:47.819
You don't just arrest everybody.

1601
01:41:47.939 --> 01:41:56.340
You go, okay, maybe this person who is my best friend of many years, who sage counsel I've sought, maybe I listen to him and we have a dialogue.

1602
01:41:56.399 --> 01:42:05.159
Or you say, I think that you're wrong and this is what we're going to do, and I'm a captain and you'll just do it.

1603
01:42:05.220 --> 01:42:09.960
I don't have to threaten you with putting you in the bridge because I'm a captain, you know.

1604
01:42:10.020 --> 01:42:27.899
And, and like if, if she's communicating with these things, saying you need to stop attacking us because we, um, are going to deal. you know, we didn't do this to you and we're going to deal with the people who did, I think that's okay.

1605
01:42:27.960 --> 01:42:40.140
I think it would even be okay to say, We're going to hand you over to the, we're going to hand the people who did this over to you. is not necessarily that bad a solution either.

1606
01:42:40.680 --> 01:42:42.479
That's curatum.

1607
01:42:42.539 --> 01:42:46.619
Just tie up the Econox crew, bring in the aliens and say, right, have your way.

1608
01:42:46.680 --> 01:42:48.539
Yeah, yeah, yeah, off you go.

1609
01:42:48.600 --> 01:42:49.979
We don't want to deal with those people.

1610
01:42:50.279 --> 01:42:58.859
Well, I mean, you know, Tuvok says we're going to imprison them and clearly that's kind of the right call.

1611
01:42:58.920 --> 01:43:10.140
But, you know, like, it is that thing where maybe they have the right to make that call themselves as green squirmy aliens.

1612
01:43:10.199 --> 01:43:11.159
What is this shit?

1613
01:43:11.159 --> 01:43:12.779
The doctor's saying so ransom.

1614
01:43:12.899 --> 01:43:16.260
Oh, you know, when this is over, I'll teach you my repertoire about singing.

1615
01:43:16.319 --> 01:43:20.819
I was like, yeah, like why are you wasting time with this?

1616
01:43:20.880 --> 01:43:22.560
When there's so much not being said.

1617
01:43:22.920 --> 01:43:25.500
It's not creepy.

1618
01:43:25.560 --> 01:43:28.140
You know, it's not like the guy in, what's that one?

1619
01:43:28.199 --> 01:43:29.699
Is it revulsion?

1620
01:43:29.819 --> 01:43:31.800
Oh, the hologram?

1621
01:43:31.920 --> 01:43:33.239
Yeah.

1622
01:43:33.300 --> 01:43:35.399
Do you know a hologram?

1623
01:43:35.460 --> 01:43:39.840
I cannot wait until we get survival instinct, which is the 2nd episode of this season.

1624
01:43:39.899 --> 01:43:40.500
The next one.

1625
01:43:40.500 --> 01:43:49.739
It's the only script that Ron Moore wrote, the teleplay that Ron Moore wrote for Voyager, and it is entirely character focussed with no action in it whatsoever.

1626
01:43:50.159 --> 01:43:55.560
And you'll get a glimpse into what he he was trying to do or he would have done here.

1627
01:43:56.520 --> 01:43:58.319
And look at this.

1628
01:43:58.380 --> 01:43:59.039
Brilliant.

1629
01:43:59.100 --> 01:44:01.079
I mean, she looks stunning on that page.

1630
01:44:01.140 --> 01:44:03.300
She's beautiful, you know.

1631
01:44:04.319 --> 01:44:08.819
I think she might have the fullest lips of any actress I've ever seen.

1632
01:44:09.000 --> 01:44:12.180
Well, LaVar Burton.

1633
01:44:12.359 --> 01:44:14.819
What actress I said, you know.

1634
01:44:14.880 --> 01:44:16.020
Oh okay, fair enough.

1635
01:44:16.199 --> 01:44:20.340
Imagine a kiss scene between Levar Burton and Jerry Ryan.

1636
01:44:20.399 --> 01:44:21.659
Oh, man, it would be fun.

1637
01:44:21.720 --> 01:44:23.520
Yeah, you could hear it in his way.

1638
01:44:23.579 --> 01:44:27.239
So, I, what...

1639
01:44:27.300 --> 01:44:34.560
So this is, this is why Ransom decides to cut, cut it out.

1640
01:44:34.619 --> 01:44:35.520
Isn't it?

1641
01:44:35.579 --> 01:44:36.060
Is it?

1642
01:44:36.119 --> 01:44:37.260
Why?

1643
01:44:37.319 --> 01:44:38.819
He's feeling guilty.

1644
01:44:38.819 --> 01:44:44.340
His guilt is manifesting itself as 7 of nine, and she just turned into one of the weird aliens.

1645
01:44:44.460 --> 01:44:48.359
So he's now guilty about as well. now, oh, do you know that?

1646
01:44:48.420 --> 01:44:50.520
Maybe I did something wrong, you know?

1647
01:44:50.579 --> 01:44:51.779
Yeah, yeah.

1648
01:44:51.840 --> 01:45:06.779
I mean, we did have all these conversations in the last episode about it, but I'm just coming to the realisation now that killing those people, that was not a savvy move, morally speaking, but I mean, he does have to cross a line here, doesn't he, where he actually kills another human being?

1649
01:45:07.199 --> 01:45:09.600
Yeah, you know, yeah.

1650
01:45:09.659 --> 01:45:12.000
But they they they need this now, don't they?

1651
01:45:12.060 --> 01:45:19.859
in order for the riveting climax of him choosing to sacrifice himself to make any sense because if he just did that without any of this, we'd be going, well.

1652
01:45:20.100 --> 01:45:22.319
But I mean, no, but this doesn't make it make any sense.

1653
01:45:22.380 --> 01:45:25.680
That's the problem because none of that, like, what is happening there?

1654
01:45:25.739 --> 01:45:28.979
We're having to kind of do your archeology to work it out.

1655
01:45:29.039 --> 01:45:31.020
I'll say at least it's open to interpretation.

1656
01:45:31.079 --> 01:45:32.880
There's a crumb.

1657
01:45:32.939 --> 01:45:35.760
There's a crumb there that you can take and try and make something out of.

1658
01:45:35.819 --> 01:45:40.319
But essentially he's doing it for kind of narrative reasons, I think.

1659
01:45:41.279 --> 01:45:47.520
Lower Dexto, a line like that, you know, like, we need to bring this episode to an end, you know?

1660
01:45:47.520 --> 01:45:52.079
Someone's... doesn't quite go as 4th wall as that, actually.

1661
01:45:52.140 --> 01:45:53.939
Someone's got to sacrifice themselves.

1662
01:45:54.000 --> 01:45:54.779
Who's it going to be?

1663
01:45:56.939 --> 01:45:59.399
Yeah, now Martyr's just...

1664
01:45:59.520 --> 01:45:59.760
Yeah.

1665
01:45:59.819 --> 01:46:04.739
No, she, so she, she's on his side. isn't she?

1666
01:46:04.739 --> 01:46:08.760
Like, she's losing her will to murder at this point as well.

1667
01:46:08.819 --> 01:46:11.220
There is no through line with her character.

1668
01:46:11.279 --> 01:46:14.699
She does what the plot needs her to do. doesn't she?

1669
01:46:14.760 --> 01:46:17.939
And that's a shame because I don't think the actress is terrible.

1670
01:46:18.000 --> 01:46:20.340
No, no, but that's it.

1671
01:46:20.460 --> 01:46:29.939
You only have 4 characters on the on equinox and you aren't able to make them distinct or give them viewpoints or anything, you know?

1672
01:46:30.000 --> 01:46:40.859
I kind of feel like the people who possessed our crew on PowerPlay were more skilfully drawn.

1673
01:46:40.920 --> 01:46:43.079
They were certainly more fun, weren't they?

1674
01:46:43.140 --> 01:46:44.159
They were.

1675
01:46:44.220 --> 01:46:46.020
Oh, Marina service.

1676
01:46:46.079 --> 01:46:47.760
Everyone get down on the floor.

1677
01:46:49.859 --> 01:46:53.640
Oh, why are we watching Marina has a gun?

1678
01:46:53.699 --> 01:46:55.560
Well, you were bored during that one.

1679
01:46:57.239 --> 01:46:58.979
But you know what?

1680
01:46:59.039 --> 01:47:03.300
You watch a lot more Star Trek and suddenly you start to re-evaluate the ones you've already done.

1681
01:47:03.359 --> 01:47:05.279
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1682
01:47:07.199 --> 01:47:09.180
Yeah, so what does he do?

1683
01:47:09.239 --> 01:47:10.380
He transports them.

1684
01:47:10.439 --> 01:47:15.779
He saves them by transporting them on Voyager, which was always the oldest.

1685
01:47:15.840 --> 01:47:16.619
Did you see that?

1686
01:47:16.680 --> 01:47:17.460
The cell blow up there.

1687
01:47:17.579 --> 01:47:19.380
Yeah, that looks great, didn't they?

1688
01:47:19.439 --> 01:47:19.979
Very good.

1689
01:47:20.039 --> 01:47:21.420
See more trailer fuel?

1690
01:47:21.479 --> 01:47:22.979
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1691
01:47:23.039 --> 01:47:23.880
That's good though.

1692
01:47:23.939 --> 01:47:26.399
The ship's limping along now with a smokiness cell.

1693
01:47:26.520 --> 01:47:28.979
Yeah, the smoke isn't quite working.

1694
01:47:29.039 --> 01:47:29.939
It's bad.

1695
01:47:29.939 --> 01:47:30.899
They try.

1696
01:47:30.960 --> 01:47:34.500
That's such a telling sign that we're not keeping the equinox, isn't it?

1697
01:47:34.560 --> 01:47:36.000
They just destroyed the nacelle.

1698
01:47:36.119 --> 01:47:37.560
It's limping along.

1699
01:47:37.800 --> 01:47:41.640
Nathan, I wonder who could possibly sacrifice himself on the ship.

1700
01:47:41.760 --> 01:47:51.239
Oh, yeah, no, no, but aren't we already planning we're on the equinox and Ransom and Marla are planning to beam everyone aboard Voyager?

1701
01:47:51.539 --> 01:47:53.399
Oh, I forgot.

1702
01:47:53.460 --> 01:47:54.720
Maybe I chipped out at this point.

1703
01:47:54.779 --> 01:47:58.739
I do like Federation ship against Federation ship, but they don't do it too often.

1704
01:47:58.800 --> 01:48:01.020
Yeah, that's what would have been great about this.

1705
01:48:01.079 --> 01:48:04.140
You know, that's what was really, you know, the thing, I think.

1706
01:48:05.460 --> 01:48:08.039
So who is it that ends up staying?

1707
01:48:08.100 --> 01:48:09.659
It's Marta Rickworthy.

1708
01:48:10.199 --> 01:48:31.680
Um, maybe, I don't know, there's some guy who has an Italian name who we've just seen in the background, because it looks like there's only 4 people, but there's probably about 10 different people that we see, and like it was a crew of 80 of whom 39 of them are killed in the 1st week.

1709
01:48:31.739 --> 01:48:36.899
And I think we see 3 or 4 people killed in that opening scene on.

1710
01:48:36.960 --> 01:48:40.920
Can I make a case for just how badly plotted these seasons are right?

1711
01:48:40.979 --> 01:48:42.539
Then later on in series 6.

1712
01:48:42.600 --> 01:48:55.920
There's an episode called Good Shepherd, which features Janeway having to take 4 unruly crew members away in a shuttlecraft to teach them to behave themselves and, you know, to be better people on the ship.

1713
01:48:55.979 --> 01:48:59.579
Why the fuck couldn't it have been these 4 from the equinox?

1714
01:49:00.000 --> 01:49:02.220
I mean, it's right for it.

1715
01:49:02.279 --> 01:49:03.420
It's raw.

1716
01:49:03.539 --> 01:49:07.619
So why are they doing that when they did exactly the same premise with Tuvok?

1717
01:49:08.640 --> 01:49:10.079
It's exactly...

1718
01:49:11.939 --> 01:49:14.579
Do you know what's even more galling?

1719
01:49:14.640 --> 01:49:18.300
is they all look a bit like the crew before this.

1720
01:49:18.300 --> 01:49:23.340
I'm like, are you people talking in this writer's room?

1721
01:49:23.699 --> 01:49:25.979
It's funny too, isn't it?

1722
01:49:26.039 --> 01:49:35.159
It's because we had the McKee who came from another ship that was destroyed. and they weren't totally on board with us for a little while and then they all immediately got over it.

1723
01:49:35.220 --> 01:49:40.380
And then we have another ship where new people come on board and they were the evil ship.

1724
01:49:41.460 --> 01:49:45.119
And, you know, they're never seen or spoken of again.

1725
01:49:45.180 --> 01:49:52.979
Apparently, one of them gets mentioned twice or appears on screen twice later, an equinox crew member.

1726
01:49:53.399 --> 01:49:55.319
Okay, sure it's not in one of the books.

1727
01:49:55.380 --> 01:49:56.819
Is he actually in the series?

1728
01:49:56.880 --> 01:49:58.560
Yeah, I think so.

1729
01:49:58.619 --> 01:50:01.079
I think that's what memory Alpha suggested.

1730
01:50:01.140 --> 01:50:07.319
But like, you know, if this was GS9, that character, those characters would have running storylines after this, wouldn't they?

1731
01:50:07.380 --> 01:50:08.100
Yeah.

1732
01:50:08.159 --> 01:50:08.819
Yeah.

1733
01:50:10.140 --> 01:50:11.880
So...

1734
01:50:11.880 --> 01:50:19.380
You remember what was just saying earlier about, you know, watching a lot of Star Trek and then sort of comparing it, the stuff we've already done.

1735
01:50:19.439 --> 01:50:24.720
Remember when we did darkling and the doctor went evil when he was sort of that hunched Jekyll and Hyde Evil?

1736
01:50:24.779 --> 01:50:29.159
I'm coming to reevaluate that after watching the evil dogs are here because he's a bit dull here, isn't he?

1737
01:50:29.699 --> 01:50:32.760
Yeah, oh, it's so perfunctory.

1738
01:50:32.819 --> 01:50:34.140
It's so shit.

1739
01:50:34.199 --> 01:50:43.739
And like, you know, I don't know, Darkling wasn't a great episode, but it had an attempt to sort of have an atmosphere and do some different things.

1740
01:50:43.800 --> 01:50:47.039
It had that fabulous sequence on top of the ravine.

1741
01:50:47.159 --> 01:50:47.640
Remember?

1742
01:50:47.699 --> 01:50:48.720
What easy?

1743
01:50:49.319 --> 01:50:51.539
I'm going to throw you up.

1744
01:50:52.560 --> 01:50:53.520
He's dead.

1745
01:50:54.840 --> 01:50:57.659
Oh, there's only one life sign left.

1746
01:50:57.960 --> 01:51:00.479
Oh, see, now they talk.

1747
01:51:00.539 --> 01:51:01.979
Does she get on the phone with him now?

1748
01:51:02.039 --> 01:51:02.760
Yes.

1749
01:51:02.819 --> 01:51:05.399
I'd like you to just say, are they doing this all along?

1750
01:51:05.460 --> 01:51:11.340
Between this scene while they're talking, I'd like you to notice all the rock chippings that are on the floor behind Janeway.

1751
01:51:11.399 --> 01:51:12.479
Voyager.

1752
01:51:12.539 --> 01:51:14.100
They're going to have to hoover their mind.

1753
01:51:15.060 --> 01:51:18.659
I just wish one person would ask a question about those rocks.

1754
01:51:18.720 --> 01:51:20.220
Why are they here?

1755
01:51:21.119 --> 01:51:24.180
But I like how she wants to get him back.

1756
01:51:24.239 --> 01:51:26.100
She should be trying to get him back.

1757
01:51:26.159 --> 01:51:27.720
Don't you think?

1758
01:51:28.739 --> 01:51:31.079
That's not, that's it.

1759
01:51:31.140 --> 01:51:33.000
That's their dialogue scene in this episode.

1760
01:51:33.000 --> 01:51:34.859
It was about 20 seconds long.

1761
01:51:34.920 --> 01:51:36.300
Yeah, yeah.

1762
01:51:36.359 --> 01:51:37.920
And then a big explosion.

1763
01:51:39.239 --> 01:51:40.859
Crazy.

1764
01:51:40.920 --> 01:51:44.279
A bit of a shame. explosion happening on board, the thing.

1765
01:51:44.340 --> 01:52:00.239
Oh yeah, so, but I like, this is a touch, even though this is a complete waste of time, the holodeck thing, where, like, I was a bit surprised that the camera came across and we saw him, and that's him, he, this is him, he's about to die here.

1766
01:52:00.300 --> 01:52:05.039
And of course, he's purified because he feels bad about all the murder he did earlier.

1767
01:52:05.100 --> 01:52:08.039
Um, so it's okay.

1768
01:52:08.100 --> 01:52:08.880
Does he go to heaven?

1769
01:52:08.939 --> 01:52:09.779
Is he in heaven?

1770
01:52:09.840 --> 01:52:10.260
Look at that.

1771
01:52:10.319 --> 01:52:12.539
So it's okay.

1772
01:52:12.539 --> 01:52:15.000
Because he's in a pretty location wearing nice clothes.

1773
01:52:15.060 --> 01:52:16.079
He feels a bit bad about it.

1774
01:52:16.140 --> 01:52:17.460
Now he explodes.

1775
01:52:19.739 --> 01:52:24.180
Gosh, my, what a moral journey. explosion.

1776
01:52:24.659 --> 01:52:26.399
For no reason.

1777
01:52:27.239 --> 01:52:30.840
Can I very quickly just quote for the uniform again?

1778
01:52:31.140 --> 01:52:35.279
Because in the climaxic scene where they talk on the bridge.

1779
01:52:35.340 --> 01:52:40.199
You know, you've got like, you portrayed your uniform and you're betraying yours right now.

1780
01:52:40.260 --> 01:52:42.960
The trouble is you can't, it's great dialogue.

1781
01:52:43.020 --> 01:52:45.600
What the hell was that between Janeway and Ransom?

1782
01:52:45.720 --> 01:52:47.460
Yeah, yeah.

1783
01:52:47.520 --> 01:52:50.100
Yeah, it was nothing because it wasn't about what they'd done.

1784
01:52:50.159 --> 01:52:51.600
You know, nothing happens.

1785
01:52:51.659 --> 01:52:54.840
She seems to have forgiven him on no evidence.

1786
01:52:54.899 --> 01:52:58.500
I do, like he said, things didn't quite work out how I hoped.

1787
01:52:58.560 --> 01:53:01.800
That was pretty cool understatement, but, you know, I don't know.

1788
01:53:01.920 --> 01:53:06.300
I think boys is a little bit too embarrassed, you know, to push the melodrama bottom as far as it should go.

1789
01:53:06.359 --> 01:53:08.340
Yeah, yeah, I think so.

1790
01:53:08.399 --> 01:53:15.300
But they're not too embarrassed to do that bridge banter thing and they should be.

1791
01:53:15.359 --> 01:53:17.279
You got that right, turkey platter.

1792
01:53:19.500 --> 01:53:36.119
So, so it's like, 7 goes, maybe you should have security protocols so that people can't just say, hey, Siri, make the doctor evil, and then he becomes evil, maybe we should have some things that prevent that from working.

1793
01:53:36.180 --> 01:53:38.340
That's fair, please.

1794
01:53:38.640 --> 01:53:48.300
So these 2 are friends again, because the previous thing didn't matter, it wasn't a moral decision at all.

1795
01:53:48.359 --> 01:53:51.420
The doctor didn't turn evil in any sense.

1796
01:53:51.479 --> 01:53:54.720
You know, he just, you know, like it's dumb.

1797
01:53:54.779 --> 01:53:57.060
It was evil for space reasons.

1798
01:53:57.119 --> 01:54:01.680
And in an episode that's about human evil, that's pathetic, I think.

1799
01:54:01.739 --> 01:54:11.039
I just think all of those Dr. 7 scenes were perfunctory, that climax was just, okay, we're back to normal. just ridiculous.

1800
01:54:11.100 --> 01:54:11.760
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1801
01:54:11.819 --> 01:54:15.180
Wasting time that could have been, yeah, more manually elsewhere.

1802
01:54:15.239 --> 01:54:16.560
Yeah.

1803
01:54:16.619 --> 01:54:17.760
Oh, I don't know.

1804
01:54:17.819 --> 01:54:19.739
They're quite cute, somebody's equinox crew, you know.

1805
01:54:19.800 --> 01:54:23.699
This one looks like a sort of rugby player of a second.

1806
01:54:23.760 --> 01:54:25.079
There's no settle, that's worthy.

1807
01:54:25.140 --> 01:54:26.460
Or do we see him again then?

1808
01:54:26.520 --> 01:54:27.180
Worthy.

1809
01:54:27.239 --> 01:54:27.600
No.

1810
01:54:27.659 --> 01:54:28.439
No, no.

1811
01:54:28.500 --> 01:54:31.199
He'll be back in Enterprise series 3 though.

1812
01:54:33.300 --> 01:54:36.239
Who does he play against Zindie number four?

1813
01:54:36.300 --> 01:54:38.579
Zindi Arboreal.

1814
01:54:38.640 --> 01:54:42.000
He's got a name. or something?

1815
01:54:42.060 --> 01:54:43.979
He lives in a tree.

1816
01:54:44.039 --> 01:54:45.899
He's a he's a monkey.

1817
01:54:45.960 --> 01:54:49.079
It's unfortunate.

1818
01:54:49.140 --> 01:54:54.779
He'll say, remember those exciting times of equinox when I had a genuine character to play.

1819
01:54:55.439 --> 01:54:57.659
What is his name?

1820
01:54:57.720 --> 01:55:00.180
Yeah, this is so poor.

1821
01:55:00.239 --> 01:55:08.279
So this is them talking about getting together and neither of them are making eye contact with each other.

1822
01:55:08.399 --> 01:55:10.500
Will I see you there?

1823
01:55:10.560 --> 01:55:12.600
They agree to make a salad together.

1824
01:55:12.659 --> 01:55:16.260
So that's something now they're making eye contact across the bridge.

1825
01:55:16.319 --> 01:55:19.079
They bridge to make us.

1826
01:55:19.079 --> 01:55:20.159
Salad together.

1827
01:55:20.220 --> 01:55:20.880
They do.

1828
01:55:20.939 --> 01:55:22.260
That's subtext.

1829
01:55:22.319 --> 01:55:25.560
You know how I said that Star Trek never does subtext?

1830
01:55:25.619 --> 01:55:29.039
Sometimes they do shitty subs.

1831
01:55:29.100 --> 01:55:35.340
I'd rather I'd rather go into a cupboard like Odo and Kira did. just don't hear the dialogue at all.

1832
01:55:35.399 --> 01:55:37.800
They come out straightening their clothing.

1833
01:55:37.920 --> 01:55:41.939
Well, that's sort of how they were playing that, as if they fucked.

1834
01:55:42.000 --> 01:55:44.939
And they were a bit awkward about it. they weren't looking at each other.

1835
01:55:45.000 --> 01:55:46.020
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1836
01:55:46.560 --> 01:55:49.739
That happened in resolutions in series 2 might.

1837
01:55:50.279 --> 01:55:53.760
Back when there was a bit of potential with this relationship.

1838
01:55:53.819 --> 01:55:55.020
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1839
01:55:55.079 --> 01:55:57.779
When the medium Robert was still bothering.

1840
01:55:57.840 --> 01:55:59.340
Yeah, here's some more subtext.

1841
01:55:59.399 --> 01:56:01.439
Let's put this sign together.

1842
01:56:01.500 --> 01:56:02.340
Yes.

1843
01:56:02.399 --> 01:56:03.720
I know.

1844
01:56:03.779 --> 01:56:06.600
But that's the thing, that dedication plaque.

1845
01:56:06.659 --> 01:56:07.739
Like, that's a kind of thing.

1846
01:56:07.859 --> 01:56:09.840
That's a Star Trek thing.

1847
01:56:09.899 --> 01:56:13.560
I'm not sure if you can see just in the background of the set there.

1848
01:56:13.619 --> 01:56:18.479
That's Rob Moore off to the office to hand in his notice. after this scene's playing out.

1849
01:56:18.539 --> 01:56:19.020
Yeah.

1850
01:56:20.520 --> 01:56:25.020
Look, but look at the handsome extra who's looking really busy.

1851
01:56:25.079 --> 01:56:27.180
We can only see the back of his neck, but it's a handsome neck.

1852
01:56:27.239 --> 01:56:29.100
That's the part of the set.

1853
01:56:29.159 --> 01:56:29.880
I never notice, you know.

1854
01:56:29.939 --> 01:56:32.520
I was noticing more while we're doing it, is that sort of side console?

1855
01:56:34.380 --> 01:56:34.859
There you go.

1856
01:56:34.920 --> 01:56:37.859
Janeway looks a bit worn about what's occurred this week.

1857
01:56:37.920 --> 01:57:01.079
Yeah, like, yeah, but we're putting the that plaque hasn't ever fallen down before, except 2 years ago when I was unconscious and you just decided you would do whatever the fuck you wanted, despite what my commands were, but we're going to put the plaque back up and maybe it'll stay up there for another 2 years.

1858
01:57:04.199 --> 01:57:05.640
It was so sad, right?

1859
01:57:05.699 --> 01:57:25.619
Is, is these, um, the 1st 4 episodes, so the 4 episodes that Rob Moore had involvement with in series 6, you get survival in Sticknecks, which is a great 7 episode, Barge of the Dead, which is a fantastic Balanatores episode, and then Tinker Taylor, Dr. Spy, which is probably the best Voyager comedy they did, right?

1860
01:57:25.680 --> 01:57:28.079
I remember watching these going out one after another.

1861
01:57:28.140 --> 01:57:34.680
I wasn't too impressed with this and I was like, Jesus Christ, DS9 is off the air and Voyager is up in its game. what's going on?

1862
01:57:34.739 --> 01:57:39.060
Yeah, yeah, yeah. and then run more goes and the next episode you get is Alice.

1863
01:57:41.880 --> 01:57:45.420
Oh shit, all the talents left the building.

1864
01:57:48.659 --> 01:57:51.000
That was a thing.

1865
01:57:51.000 --> 01:57:52.079
That happened.

1866
01:57:52.140 --> 01:57:58.260
No, that was it was a perfectly reasonable 2 hours of television.

1867
01:57:58.619 --> 01:58:05.100
Yeah. that failed to take the opportunities that were so obviously there.

1868
01:58:05.220 --> 01:58:07.680
Yeah, it could have been so good.

1869
01:58:07.800 --> 01:58:19.260
It could really have been good, but at this point, they're much more concerned with spectacle, which is good, but the dialogue is just functional, and they can't examine a thing.

1870
01:58:19.319 --> 01:58:23.279
You know, it's not about anything, as Ron Moore said, I think.

1871
01:58:23.340 --> 01:58:27.899
Well, it's been our, of the, voyager episodes that we've done so far.

1872
01:58:27.960 --> 01:58:29.279
What's been the highlights for you?

1873
01:58:29.340 --> 01:58:29.939
Counterpoint?

1874
01:58:30.000 --> 01:58:32.640
Yeah, I like counterpoint a lot.

1875
01:58:32.699 --> 01:58:40.920
I think it's just got a really good guest performance, and it just does sort of fairly standard Star Trek things, but it's just, it does them very well, I think.

1876
01:58:40.979 --> 01:58:42.779
We liked a lot of Scorpion.

1877
01:58:42.899 --> 01:58:46.140
We had some reservations, but we did we did enjoy Scorpion a lot.

1878
01:58:46.199 --> 01:58:47.159
Yeah.

1879
01:58:47.220 --> 01:58:50.159
The heerogen 2 party. you really liked, didn't you?

1880
01:58:50.220 --> 01:58:50.880
Killing games?

1881
01:58:50.939 --> 01:58:52.140
Yeah, I think that's really fun.

1882
01:58:52.199 --> 01:58:54.779
Again, sort of big scale action and stuff.

1883
01:58:54.840 --> 01:58:58.920
So is that where this show's at his best doing spectacle rather than...

1884
01:58:58.920 --> 01:59:00.239
I think so.

1885
01:59:00.300 --> 01:59:07.199
I mean, I think sometimes they do things that are quiet and interesting, but what they don't do is character staff.

1886
01:59:07.260 --> 01:59:14.039
And I think they only ever examine sort of issues that are really basic superficial level.

1887
01:59:14.100 --> 01:59:18.119
Like when you look at something like workforce or critical care.

1888
01:59:18.239 --> 01:59:38.159
There's clearly a political message, but it's a really obvious political message that's made in a very obvious way, and it's almost like they're doing it because they feel that's the sort of thing Star Trek should do rather than because they have strong feelings about particular political issues, but I don't know, I can't read their minds.

1889
01:59:38.220 --> 01:59:46.020
It's fun and high concept Voyager is fun and, you know, even when it's crappy, there's things to laugh at.

1890
01:59:46.140 --> 01:59:57.420
Can I give the final word of this episode then to friend of this podcast, Tom Solinski, who once again plug his trekker days.

1891
01:59:57.479 --> 02:00:08.579
Now, we're very often at crossroads with our opinions of episodes, but he managed to, in a tweet, he manages to really sort of encompass a solid argument for an episode.

1892
02:00:08.640 --> 02:00:19.800
And when he was reviewing Endgame, He did give it 4.5 stars out of five, but he said, which can always be relied upon never to confront the human cost of its premise.

1893
02:00:19.859 --> 02:00:23.279
Provided you accept that, there's a lot of fun to be had here.

1894
02:00:23.340 --> 02:00:24.960
And I think that's perfect.

1895
02:00:25.079 --> 02:00:26.220
Yeah.

1896
02:00:26.279 --> 02:00:27.479
Yeah, I think so.

1897
02:00:33.539 --> 02:00:42.300
All right, it's the end of the episode and it is time for us to decide what we're going to be watching next time.

1898
02:00:42.359 --> 02:00:51.720
It's my turn, and I have decided that we are going to do an episode of the original series.

1899
02:00:51.779 --> 02:00:57.659
Oh, you can almost guarantee wherever way the quality swings, we're going to have fun with this.

1900
02:00:57.720 --> 02:01:09.420
Now, part of the problem with this is always that there are episodes that I don't know what they are necessarily, and there are some that I almost certainly haven't seen, but let's see how we go.

1901
02:01:09.720 --> 02:01:13.619
I'm going to pull up our reference site, jammer reviews.

1902
02:01:13.680 --> 02:01:17.399
So we'll know what the episode is all about.

1903
02:01:17.460 --> 02:01:19.500
Okay, I'm ready.

1904
02:01:19.560 --> 02:01:20.279
All right.

1905
02:01:20.340 --> 02:01:21.239
Here goes.

1906
02:01:21.359 --> 02:01:23.460
Yeah, no idea.

1907
02:01:23.520 --> 02:01:28.800
Your random Star Trek, the original series episode is patterns of force.

1908
02:01:28.920 --> 02:01:31.859
Season 2, episode 21.

1909
02:01:32.100 --> 02:01:34.260
Okay, just one moment then, please.

1910
02:01:34.319 --> 02:01:46.140
Patsons of force, investigating the disappearance of a missing Starfleet officer, an enterprise landing party beams down onto a planet, modelled on Nazi Germany.

1911
02:01:46.199 --> 02:01:49.380
Oh, that sounds absolutely terrible.

1912
02:01:49.439 --> 02:01:51.420
I think we might have to do it, you know.

1913
02:01:51.479 --> 02:01:53.399
No, I've already pressed the button.

1914
02:01:55.199 --> 02:02:00.659
It's the changeling, which obviously we did in episode 32.

1915
02:02:01.859 --> 02:02:04.140
Was that the fabulous one?

1916
02:02:04.199 --> 02:02:06.180
Nomad robot that was going around on the street.

1917
02:02:06.239 --> 02:02:08.279
It was great, wouldn't it?

1918
02:02:08.340 --> 02:02:09.300
pretty good.

1919
02:02:09.359 --> 02:02:10.800
How about this one?

1920
02:02:10.859 --> 02:02:13.560
Uh, the Galileo 7?

1921
02:02:13.619 --> 02:02:16.020
Season one, episode 16?

1922
02:02:16.079 --> 02:02:30.840
During a shuttle mission, Spock's 1st command becomes a struggle of logical decisions when the team becomes stranded on a desolate planet, which does sound like every other episode, the original series, but Jamma kindly gives it 3.5 stars out of four.

1923
02:02:30.960 --> 02:02:34.319
I think it's a pretty kind of well-known one.

1924
02:02:34.380 --> 02:02:38.399
It is a bit of a classic and the Galileo is the name of the shuttle.

1925
02:02:38.460 --> 02:02:49.140
And so it has them on a shuttle landing on a planet and things instead of just beaming down, which is a thing, but it is a sort of Spock episode and a fairly early Spock episode.

1926
02:02:49.199 --> 02:02:49.619
What do you think?

1927
02:02:49.680 --> 02:02:53.279
I don't think we've done too much of season one, have we?

1928
02:02:53.340 --> 02:02:55.439
We've done mostly later, TOS.

1929
02:02:55.500 --> 02:02:56.939
Yeah, I think that sounds great.

1930
02:02:57.000 --> 02:02:59.819
And to have one that's sort of really focussing on Spock as well.

1931
02:02:59.939 --> 02:03:05.159
Give me a chance to compare to all the latest box performances I've been watching recently.

1932
02:03:05.520 --> 02:03:07.199
That sounds wonderful.

1933
02:03:07.260 --> 02:03:08.220
Yeah.

1934
02:03:08.279 --> 02:03:12.239
No, I remember watching this when I was much younger and I haven't seen it for decades.

1935
02:03:12.300 --> 02:03:14.159
I'll be interested to get back to it and see what I think.

1936
02:03:14.220 --> 02:03:17.939
And we're going down to a desolate planet, so let's see how they realise that.

1937
02:03:18.000 --> 02:03:20.640
Yeah, it's in the studio and it'll be fun.

1938
02:03:22.500 --> 02:03:24.840
I'll be I'll be happy then.

1939
02:03:33.000 --> 02:03:44.819
You've been listening to entitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford and Nathan Bottomley, where online at untitled Star Trek Project.com, where you can find subscription links and links to our social media accounts.

1940
02:03:44.880 --> 02:03:50.579
Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceran, and the theme was composed by Cameron Lann.

1941
02:03:50.640 --> 02:03:56.699
This episode was recorded on the 26th of September 2023 and released on the 29th of September.

1942
02:03:56.760 --> 02:04:02.159
We'll see you next time for Star Trek, the original series, the Galileo 7.

1943
02:04:20.220 --> 02:04:21.600
Come on, inside.

1944
02:04:21.659 --> 02:04:22.619
Inside.

1945
02:04:22.680 --> 02:04:24.300
Come on, good boy.

1946
02:04:24.420 --> 02:04:25.260
Good boy.

1947
02:04:25.380 --> 02:04:27.359
Good boy.

1948
02:04:31.739 --> 02:04:33.779
Is it being a good boy?

1949
02:04:34.079 --> 02:04:35.460
Yeah.

1950
02:04:35.520 --> 02:04:37.439
He...

1951
02:04:38.399 --> 02:04:42.779
I don't know what was outside, but there was something that he wanted to.

1952
02:04:44.340 --> 02:04:47.399
Chase around in the backyard.

1953
02:04:47.460 --> 02:04:50.220
So anyway, you realise something right.

1954
02:04:50.279 --> 02:04:57.420
There's a couple of little members of the Star Trek project audience that just tune in for you ranting.

1955
02:04:57.479 --> 02:04:59.880
This will probably be their favourite episode, yeah.

1956
02:05:03.180 --> 02:05:08.279
Dave Freddy fucking loves it when you go off on one. and so does Ross as well.

1957
02:05:13.859 --> 02:05:19.920
No, I do think it's a different sort of tone to anything else we've done, which is good, I think.

1958
02:05:21.359 --> 02:05:22.739
Yeah.

1959
02:05:22.800 --> 02:05:25.380
Yeah, I mean, yeah, yeah.

1960
02:05:25.439 --> 02:05:29.520
I know, I know we're being a bit, um, Critical.

1961
02:05:29.579 --> 02:05:32.039
But I don't think it doesn't deserve it.

1962
02:05:32.340 --> 02:05:35.159
No, like I think, yeah.

1963
02:05:35.220 --> 02:05:37.680
And if we're going to do the rum.

1964
02:05:38.699 --> 02:05:40.979
There's going to be episodes like this.

1965
02:05:41.220 --> 02:05:43.020
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1966
02:05:43.079 --> 02:05:44.039
I think that's okay, though.

1967
02:05:44.100 --> 02:05:46.500
It is fun. and I like getting a good rant on as well.

1968
02:05:46.560 --> 02:05:47.159
It's funny.

1969
02:05:48.239 --> 02:05:50.399
Which one of water?

1970
02:05:50.399 --> 02:05:51.479
I can hear it, right?

1971
02:05:51.539 --> 02:05:56.520
I can hear how stressed you while talking because your voice just goes up and up.

1972
02:05:56.579 --> 02:06:00.180
And then...

1973
02:06:00.180 --> 02:06:02.760
I didn't make Peter Davidson's squeaky voice.

1974
02:06:03.960 --> 02:06:07.319
Oh, wait, I need the wrong more quote.

1975
02:06:07.380 --> 02:06:10.439
It's not going to be massively long, but just a little bit.

1976
02:06:10.500 --> 02:06:10.979
No, no, no.

1977
02:06:11.760 --> 02:06:13.680
You introduce it.

1978
02:06:16.739 --> 02:06:19.199
See, I mean, it's such interesting reading.

1979
02:06:19.260 --> 02:06:21.119
It's way longer than what I sent you as well.

1980
02:06:21.420 --> 02:06:23.520
Like the whole interview.

1981
02:06:23.579 --> 02:06:24.479
It's way, way longer.

1982
02:06:24.539 --> 02:06:25.800
Um.

1983
02:06:25.920 --> 02:06:28.859
The one in memory alpha I thought was really good.

1984
02:06:31.920 --> 02:06:33.119
Yeah, okay, that bit.

1985
02:06:36.899 --> 02:06:38.579
Alfie.

1986
02:06:39.239 --> 02:06:44.100
It'll probably be a couple of minutes, but you know, it'll give you loads of talking points.

1987
02:06:44.579 --> 02:06:45.479
Yeah.

1988
02:06:45.539 --> 02:06:46.739
Okay, I'm ready.

1989
02:06:47.159 --> 02:06:49.199
Do you want to introduce it?

1990
02:06:49.859 --> 02:06:54.420
Oh no, you always do that bit. at least you say like, oh, okay.

1991
02:06:54.479 --> 02:06:59.279
Oh, those times are just going, like, this will be, of course, yeah, yeah, okay.

1992
02:07:00.539 --> 02:07:04.079
So I have been in touch with Ron Moore.